It Was Only A Matter Of Time Before We Had To Talk About This Again

This is thinking like a lawyer. See, like I didn't even say, well, like, why are you doing this? This is thinking like a lawyer. Because you didn't to get me to stop. So can't stop, won't stop. Rockefeller records. I'm Joe Fisheries. That's Catherine Bino and Chris Williams. We're from above the law. We come here every week to have a quick conversation about some of the big stories in the legal and legal adjacent world that we've been covering in above the law, or even if we haven't been covering them, but usually if we've been covering them at above the law. So that's what we're here to do yet again this week. Talk about the week that was in law, which is always exciting. Oh, yeah. Now that was, that was what I was hoping for, some kind of a reaction. Oh, good news. Well, they're right. So let's begin our segment on having a little bit of small talk. All right. Okay. I really like that part. No, I hear, yeah, I hear, yeah, here. It's the reason that show up to the show really fair enough. Anybody got anything interesting going on in life? I'm having a good day, but not as good as Travis Kelsey. So nice. Yeah. There's that. No, that's fair. So for people out there who don't know, living under rocks somewhere. Yeah. I mean, it is difficult to avoid this, but yeah, Travis Kelsey appears to be dating the one and only Taylor Allison Swift. Yeah. Oh, my God. Did you really not know? I'm I'm Patrick. I've been under a rock apparently. I mean, I don't really follow. You don't have to follow anything. You just have to be alive. We all have rough weekends. And you know, the bears also had a rough weekend at the hands of Travis Kelsey. Yes. He may have two super bowl rings, but this was his biggest game yet. Taylor Swift was in his box sitting next to Mama Kelsey. They appear to be having a grand old time. He has, he has two rings. Are they, are they shiny, shiny fangs or? Yes. All right. That's the pocket. No, it's the paper paper. It's like, Oh, come on. I deserve all sorts of credit for that one. And shame. I mean, I, I live in a constant cloud of shame. So that's not really going to change it. Otherwise known as being raised Catholic, but yeah. No, it's great fun. They appear to have gone to a restaurant that they bought out. They're a whole restaurant for the evening. Flex took a nice ride in a classic convertible car literally rode into the sunset. It is, it is everything I'm living for right now. I am very much looking forward to this breakup album. Anyway, I mean, we'll say, we'll say this is not like other people. She's been linked to at least doesn't appear to be. He doesn't look like a emaciated Victorian child. He does not look like he survived tuberculosis last winter. So there's that, although with his new mustache, he looks some kind of way. I'm not a big fan of the mustache solo without the beard attack, but it appears to work for Taylor. Well, there we go. I don't even think we need to really get to the blackface. This should be the, the brunt of the discussion, you know. So I mean, I could talk longer if you would like about Taylor Swift and Travis Kelsey. I think that's what you want. No, it is not. That said, I will say when you, I know you know what the agenda for the discussion is, but when you drop, you know, this can replace the conversation about blackface. I feel like we should clarify there is a reason for that that is not. No, it's just like. No, all right. So, okay. This show got off the rails real way. That's what happens. Exactly where it's supposed to be. Right. Okay. Yeah. I went there. All right. Does anybody have anything else? I want to talk to you besides Taylor Swift and Travis Kelsey, because I don't. That is what I want to talk about all the time. My group texts with various different groups of friends have been blowing up since this was unveiled. And it is just really occupying a lot of my time and energy at the moment. My ducks decided to put an end to the Dion Sanders Cinderella story. That was that was exciting for me. Yeah. Well, it was not a hell of a game. It was a hell of an ass beat. Imagine for ducks fit. I am. It was a lot of fun. It is, it is a lot. It was a lot of fun to watch that happen. The duck had to do quite a few pushups. Yeah. Was it a 35 point victory? Yeah. Yeah. Not bad. Yeah. So there's that. I'm going to Chicago this week for relativity fest. So we might have some exciting e-discovery conversations next week. The word maybe is an interesting one. It's a choice. So you're right. We will definitely have some exciting. You may talk about it. I'm not going to go so far as to say it's exciting. Did you ever touch the bean? Oh, no. I haven't actually. I, you know, like touched what? The bean. The thing is Chicago is Chicago. Yes. You don't understand. Yeah. All the cool kids do it. You know, you can flick it if you want. I thought our conversation was going further off the rails. In a very specific way. It was contextual. Was it? It's a Chicago landmark. It's like that in those strange hot dogs they sell. They're like, you know, I've heard of pizza. I've been to Chicago a few times. Never, never dealt with the bean situation. Really? Yes. Joe. I mean, what are you incredulous about that? I've been to Chicago? No, that you've never, that you have no idea what the bean is. I don't. Look how the turntables who's under the rock now, you know. I said they were all on purpose. Sure you did. Yeah. All right. Let's, let's end this. Really? No, we guess we don't have to. Well, that was, that was the end of it as it turns out. So are you happy now that you interrupted me? I, I, I mean, I, I feel like this is a tip for tat situation because you did it first. Now I'm just responding. I, I want peace. Do you? Yeah, you just, you just keep pushing this. I can never give you peace. See that was a Taylor Swift reference. Oh, that's how you do it. I didn't catch it. Well, you don't know the Taylor Swift Uvra. So it makes it harder to catch. Oh, like a Pokemon. See, that's a reference for you. Mm-hmm. Okay, you win this time. Never again. Never again. All right. He's your brain hurting you, Joe. I want a lighter note. You want to talk about like face? No, my brain is, my brain is darker. My brain is hurting me in the same way that it probably hurts Amy Coney Barrett, who doesn't understand. Yeah. Well, I mean, you, you gave me a better transition to that. Well, we had been slow playing the blackface here. Well, that's a thing. That's not a transition to just keep saying the word blackface. We will get to the blackface. Blackface you say? You're just trying to get people to keep on listening. Like, don't shut it off. We're going to talk about blackface. I promise. I'm really dreading having to write the title for this episode because it's clearly going to have to be like blackface you say. That's not, that's not good. Let's try to make sure we can come up with something else. All right. I'm on board. And make sure you're like your face is in this green shot. There was a survey done by the Annenberg constitution. The Annenberg folks, they did the survey about civics and the results are horrified. No, no. Yeah. Most people don't know what the first amendments comes up with. Pop quiz hot shot. What freedoms are protected by the first amendment? Oh, guns. This is, of course, the exact same question that Amy Coney Barrett fluffed at the floor. At her. Yeah. Confirmation. Not fluffed. Flubbed. Flubbed. Like you, like you flubbed saying flubbed. Yeah. Yeah. Irony. Yeah. It is. Thanks, Alonus. Anyway. So you just try to get some extra time to come up with the five freedoms guaranteed. But the first amendment. No, because it's dialogue, dialogue, dialogue, dialogue, and dialogue. I have no idea what that was. You don't get that. Really? Dave Chappelle. Is that before you all's time? The best five rappers? Somebody listening is going to get that and it's going to be hilarious. Leave that right now. Trust me. Right. Okay. So, well, we've got the freedom speech, which most people don't seem to understand even that, even granting that. 77% of people, though, do know that it exists in some way. In some sense. In some sense. They don't, I mean, maybe they don't understand the intricacies of first amendment, jurisprudence, but they're aware that it exists. The most important one for the three of us, press. Yes. 28% got that one, right? Oh, okay. Then go where it gets worse. All right. So, obviously, there's, this one's always a tricky one because it's religion, though technically, that should be two, I think. Free exercise establishment should be two different things. Sure, but it is generally grouped together. On the other hand, the establishment clause doesn't exist anymore. I've heard of the Supreme Court. Now, we know. 40% said freedom of religion. Okay. So, you can assemble. 33% people know that. Okay. You can certainly petition for redress of your grievances. And here's where it gets real bad. Only 9% do that was true. Wing in a mess. And the folks that were able to hit a home run and get all five, that was only five percent. Oh, so that means that we're the 95%. That's what I get out of that. Or the five. Or no, we're the five. Yeah. Oh, right. Oh, God. Yeah. Amy Coneybear is the 95. Yeah, right. What I think is interesting also is that four percent of people know that the right to petition the government is included in the first amendment, but missed something else. Right. Yeah. That is the hard one. I now understand how I got that wrong. I meant to say 95% tile. That's that's what we are. That is that is not the 95% percentile. Anyway, yes. But it was funny to me and to people who are old enough to remember when Amy Coneybear attended to the throne, because that's what I believe the Supreme Court is how they think of themselves these days. And she struggled to list all of the first amendment freedoms and her confirmation hearing. So it was just it was a nice little call back to a great moment that we should never forget. Also, which reminded me when we were when I was doing research for this story, which was a great little moment was Amy Coneybear's nickname at the time. Oh, Amy Coneybear. Yeah. You remember? Yeah. No, she was good stuff because she was patient zero in the giving Trump COVID. Well, I guess you don't know if she had, but her confirmation hearing. Well, the party that they held, the nomination party. Yeah, nomination party. That's what it was. It wasn't just a bunch of people got it, right? Like Chris Christie and like every day that somebody knew came out saying they got in COVID because they attended this party. Before he moved to the next thing, isn't this the same study that also said that about 23% of the people thought the first amendment protected the right, the guns? Sure did. Yeah. Sure did. And I don't see how it how it doesn't because that is a religion. Mary and Frank's actually a professor wrote a book about that. That was a very good making that exact argument. I thought it was pretty on point. But I will say that I think the 22% think that the first amendment includes the freedom to bear arms. It's kind of a way that the survey was also formulated issue because there were five blanks. And I think that after maybe after they couldn't quite come up with anything else, like maybe maybe maybe. Oh, I see what you mean. Right. They were kind of like, this is another right I know about kind of could be. I don't know could be. So I like to think that the NRA is in a really good job of a branding the second amendment. So people actually know that it's not the first. Yeah. Personally, I mean, I get that split issue about like free exercise and establishment. I could very much see somebody missing either assembly or grievances and assuming the fifth is splitting that in half. Yeah. And I think that's fair. Yeah. And frankly, there's an argument that we as a country would be way better off if we recognize that there were six freedoms and we did split that in half because the erosion of the establishment clause is part and parcel that people don't view it as some sort of independent right. Yeah. But and the Black Lives Matter protests was a great reminder that people don't really remember that the right to protest is a right. Like, oh, yeah. There was the amount of flash that people got for exercising the rights. There were lawyers that got in trouble for like spitting on protesters that we've covered. And I was like, this is just I don't think people thought of that as a constitutional violation. Yeah. I mean, it's it's multiple freedom because it's a freedom of speech there and assembly to the extent a lot of people are together. Right. Yeah. But yeah, no, it's it's one of those situations where it's a right and people act as though it isn't. It's almost like they're gaslighting somebody. We'll take a break and then that transition will make a lot more sense. They say the best things in life are free, which either means the legal toolkit podcast is pretty awesome or we're totally committed to the wrong business model. You'll just have to tune in to find out what it is. I'm Jared Korea and each episode I run the risk of making total ass of myself so that you can have a laugh, learn something new, and why not? Maybe even improve your law practice. Stop believing podcasts can't be both fun and helpful. Subscribe now to the legal toolkit. Go ahead. I'll wait. The ABA Journal Legal Rebels Podcast features the men and women in the legal profession who aren't satisfied with good enough. These are the people who are changing the way law is practiced and setting the standards that will define the profession in the future. Each episode we share their store. To hear insights from those with an iFixTourge tomorrow, follow the Legal Rebels Podcast, part of the Legal Talk Network. So I made a illusion to gaslighting. Will it make sense though? The perfect way to gaslight is to ignore that it happened and talk about blackness. Yeah, fair. We covered last week a lawsuit that was filed by a former shareholder at Pulsanelli Law Firm. They law firm for my equity partner filed lawsuit against the firm and two senior partners alleging sexual harassment over the course of many years at the firm, saying that she was constantly, from the time she was got at the firm, she was subjected to unwelcome advances from those two partners and that not only would she have to contain them that but when she rebuffed them that they were prominent partners in the field and were no longer interested in helping her build her practice and then her practice suffered and eventually she was let go by the firm and she says that she was warned that there was mistreatment and impropriety and that there was a situation at the top of the firm and that when she did go to HR that she was gaslit she said that there was callous gaslighting in response to her claims of sexual harassment but that given what she alleges was the culture at the firm that that was not surprising. Yeah. Well, I mean this speaks to a bunch of the stuff we've talked about lately. I mean the whole career suffering, the way in which all that happens was speaks to some of the Joshua Wright stuff we've talked about recently. Yeah, it still seems to be a massive issue. Yeah and the firm, the firm has come out and said that they have, they take allegations of sexual harassment very seriously. They have a robust reporting procedures in place and that they are committed to having a harassment-free workplace but very early still and obviously in the litigation process the complaint has been filed but not much else has happened but it is, it is very interesting not just, you know, I think that you hear that harassment still happens that there might even be an expectation that some level of harassment occurs but not only that it occurred in this instance but it rose to the point where a partner is bringing the lawsuit, you know, somebody who has their reputation, has their career, has their book of business very much on the line. I think it's telling that we're getting to the point where we're starting seeing these kinds of lawsuits where it's not just kind of junior associates or staff members who maybe have less invested in terms of firm and they're literally their equity stake which she says she hasn't gotten back yet but, you know, it's interesting. Which isn't to diminish or discourage folks more junior from coming forward but it is important that more senior folks are doing this and, you know, that's the same thing with the Joshua Wright allegations at the law school, the folks accusing him of starting affairs with them when they were one-ells and kind of dangling their career in the balance throughout that. They're a partner and a counsel at a law firm now so it is kind of a moment where senior attorneys are starting to, you know, stand up which is important because you get encourages folks further down the line. I think it definitely encourages folks and I also think that there was once a stigma that if you brought these allegations public that you would be blackballed from the industry and hopefully that perception has changed at least. Yeah, definitely. You know, speaking of harassment, you know, what's another vector of harassment in this world? Black phase? Maybe. That's where we're going with this? I would have never thought. If you're a lawyer running a solo or small firm and you're looking for other lawyers to talk through issues you're currently facing in your practice, join the unbillable hours community roundtable, a free virtual event on the third Thursday of every month. Lawyers from all over the country come together and meet with me, lawyer and law firm management consultant, Christopher T. Anderson, to discuss best practices on topics such as marketing, client acquisition, hiring and firing and time management. The conversation is free to join but requires a simple reservation. The link to RSVP can be found on the unbillable hour page at legaltalknetwork.com. We'll see you there. Today's legal news is rarely as straightforward as the headlines that accompany them. On lawyer to lawyer, we provide the legal perspective you need to better understand the current events that shape our society. Join me, Craig Williams, and a wide variety of industry experts as we break down the top stories. Follow lawyer to lawyer on the legal talk network or wherever you subscribe to podcasts. David will point where we're going to have some really awful stories about lawyers and law students thinking the black faces are things they should be doing. Before we get there, we have a story of a law school situation. We have a law review who created a trophy. Yes. Trophy that they gave out for blue booking. And it was a football that they put a wig on because they said they had those in the office. Okay, I spy a little lie in that story right there using a law review, had a football in their office. Yeah, oh, cute. I think the wig is actually more unlikely than just having a football randomly around, but whatever. But they put a wig on this football and then put big googly eyes on it and then put giant red lips on it and then put it in their window. Oh, by the way, where is this hall? Memphis. Memphis, Tennessee, you say. It is. It is. Yeah. Oh, yes. Yeah, and I definitely encourage folks to check out the story that Joe wrote because I had heard this and when we were kind of in our group chat about what was going on and I was like, well, you know, maybe, maybe they didn't realize that the darkness of the football would look maybe, maybe, and then I saw the image of it and there's zero doubt in my mind that that's what that looks like. None. It's one of those situations where you could see how any individual element of this could have been explained as, oh, we didn't know. You know, you could have used a football and put a wig on it, whatever. And it would have been like, oh, I could see how you would see that that's what we're doing, but it's not. Or you could have potentially put lips on something and said like whatever. But instead they created kind of like as I put it kind of like the Amos and Andy Memorial Award and then decided to put that as a thing that they handed out. It was just, it was every element was putting together stereotypes and it was yeah, real, real ugly caricature situation. School and the law review have apologized and said, oh, this was such a mistake. But part of the bit for me is as problematic as this is and it is on its face. All I can think was. Yeah, no, that was, that was, that was, that was it, that was it. Yeah. Well, three, three fifths. Better, better. All right. I personally, we're gonna break this. We're gonna, we're gonna break that sound effect here is because it's gonna keep coming up. I think, but it's bad as this is that one of the things that got me was kind of the collective action problem here, right? It's not that this happened. It's that this happened and multiple people within the law review were involved and saw it or maybe weren't involved in saw it show up in the office or maybe were not from the law review and passed it and saw it. And it was up for like 10 days. So for the course of 10 days, multiple people interacted with this trophy in some way before anybody decided to say, hey, I got a thought. No. Yeah. I wonder how many faculty members saw it. Well, right. You're right. Like, somebody had to have walked by this thing, right? Many people. I mean, I don't really know the, I don't really know the layout of the offices there. I know from my journal, it's at least plausible a faculty member didn't see it from my journal because my journal, our offices were in a place that no self-respecting faculty member would ever go. But it still meant that upwards of 40 people would have passed it during that period. But again, I don't know where their offices are. Some, some law schools have their law review offices and very prominent places in like nice new all glass kind of offices and stuff where everybody can see things. So I don't know the exact situation, but the point is some large group of people interacted with this and seemed to have no sense that this was a problem for a long time. Yeah. That's not great. It is not. But it does set up what is inevitably going to be our October where somebody is going to do this again like they do every year. I like to do is I like to refer to doing black faces, doing a Justin Trudeau impression. Yeah, yeah. Because at one point, prime minister of Canada, it was, you know, felt really rhythmic that day. I don't know. I mean, I feel it, my recollection is in that instance, it was not that there should be any distinction here, but it was he was dressing as a ladder. He was dressing as Disney's Aladdin. Yeah, that was what he wasn't that dark. And he decided to make himself dark for Disney's Aladdin situation, which I mean, it is bad in a lot of ways. It does not have kind of the same historical baggage of minstrel Z that like this particular caricature does. It's I still think it's very, very bad, but I can at least see the argument that a Canadian might not see that. But this is not what we're talking about because again, as already has been pointed out, we're in Memphis, Tennessee for this conversation. But anyway, that happened. Yes, yeah, yeah. Any other no discipline, right? To any of the folks involved? No, everybody's kind of taking it as this was a honest mistake. They're, they're, you know, endeavoring to do better and so on. And I would assume there's going to be some sort of educational teachable moment here. And yeah, we can only hope the James hole cheering yet about how this is about free speech or I know, right? Like, where are all those guys right now? Yeah, you know, stand up for the free speech involved. Anyway, I mean, they're too busy signing dumb letters up out their old boss or something. That seems likely. Speaking of, we didn't even we and this is without even having to touch on because it we it broke so late in the week without even touching on. But I guess we'll kind of have a quick little coda on Clarence Thomas is still corrupt. We've all we've heard all of the things that he's ever done on the right. We're never going to get to the end. Oh, wait, there's more. It'll be 20 years from now. And somebody would be like, we dug up more. Yeah. And Chris, you you wrote about this, but Clarence Thomas more allegations. Oh, yeah. Connected to like a small group of fundraisers. A Koch brothers event. Yeah. Yeah. And when you think they was it, there was a pledge to dump like $900 million into politics. There's going to be there's going to be things before the court that Koch brothers are involved with that Clarence is going to sit on because of course, why would he about he excuse himself? Not like he has any like moral binding code or anything. So yes, more allegations. It is telling that we did not make this one of the major stories of this week because we all kind of went well, obviously. So just exhausting, which is kind of the problem like are we we're not no one's going to do anything about it. It's exhausting to hear about. Yes, he's still corrupt. Yeah. I think that what I hope happens is instead of focusing on Thomas, there needs to be more more shaming and gilding on Roberts. Because this is all happening under his watch. So like as far as legacy, I think people need to talk about how this is going to screw the Roberts courts legacy. Oh, yeah. Because Thomas doesn't want to do anything. He's been being bankrupt for over two decades. But the attack of persons like, you know, their place in the history might be changed. Yeah. All right. Yeah. On that happy note, everything's controlled by a series of corrupt people as opposed to the black face conversation, which was super happy times. I mean, we did get some good jokes in why there weren't we didn't really have any here. Oh, Chris did. Well, right. Chris got jokes in. Yes. The Queen's we roll the show for the show. All right. With all that said, let's wrap this up. You should be subscribed to the show. That way you get new episodes when they come out. You can read all the stories that we talked about here as well as other stories that we don't get to in a week by reading above the law. Of course, you should be following us on social media. The publication is at ATL blog. I'm at Joseph Patrice. Catherine's at Catherine one. Chris is at rights for rent. Oh, and on Blue Sky, I'm Joe Patrice. Catherine's also Catherine one there. I just was able to get out of the Joseph part of it when I got to Blue Sky. What else? Oh, give reviews. Write something. Stars. That all helps people find this podcast. You should check out some other podcasts like Catherine hosting the Chippau or me being a guest on the legal tech week journalist round table. And then with all of that said, I think we are done for a while. I will see everybody next week for a massively fun deep dive into you discovering news. I'm sure joy on that. All right, bye everybody. If you're a lawyer running a solo or small firm and you're looking for other lawyers to talk through issues you're currently facing in your practice, join the unbillable hours community round table, a free virtual event on the third Thursday of every month. Lawyers from all over the country come together and meet with me, lawyer and law firm management consultant, Christopher T. Anderson, to discuss best practices on topics such as marketing, client acquisition, hiring and firing, and time management. The conversation is free to join, but requires a simple reservation. The link to RSVP can be found on the unbillable our page at legaltalknetwork.com. We'll see you there.