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Welcome to Animal Spirits, a show about markets, life, and investing.
Join Michael Batnik and Ben Carlson as they talk about what they're reading, writing,
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Michael Batnik and Ben Carlson work for Rit Holds Wealth Management.
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Welcome to Animal Spirits with Michael and Ben.
We had Paul Kim from Simplify on to talk about alternative strategies.
This was wide ranging, broad scope of topics that we discussed.
Basically, everything but the 60-40 portfolio.
Simplify was a product of the pandemic.
Paul Kim started this company.
I think it was 2020, right in the teeth of the pandemic.
When we first talked to them, they only had a handful of strategies.
They have a lot more strategies.
It's interesting because now these strategies cover high inflation, low inflation, rising
rates, falling rates.
It's all these different things.
One of the things we're talking about was they had a strategy that just knocked it out
of the park last year.
It was up almost 100% because it hedged interest rate risk.
My question to him was, what's the other side of this?
If you think rates aren't going to go up anymore, and he said they had two strategies
that can take advantage of that too.
I think that's interesting that these ETFs now, especially using some options and maybe
some leverage that if you have a view of the world, there's going to be a strategy to
take advantage of that.
Investors certainly didn't have that in the past where they could say, I want an ETF for
a mutual fund that's going to allow me to take advantage of interest rates rising.
You would have said, I don't know, just shortener duration.
There's no implicit strategy for that in the past.
So a lot of their strategies, I think, were limited to hedge funds back in the day.
And now, advisors have the ability to implement them within alongside like their core type
stuff and Simplify does a great job making these strategies, which are fairly complex.
Certainly, forget about the average investor, even for the average advisor.
This is not necessarily stuff that is in their wheelhouse.
So they make it very approachable.
They work with you in analytics.
If you're not sure where this could fit alongside some of the more passive stuff, they make
it accessible.
So I think you're going to really enjoy this conversation with Paul Kim from Simplify.
Welcome to Animal Spirits with Michael and Ben.
We're joined today by Paul Kim.
Paul is a returning champion.
He is the co-founder and CEO of Simplify Asset Management.
Paul, thank you for joining us again.
Thanks for having me.
It's a pleasure.
I think this is number four now or something like that.
We're excited to have you back.
First of all, I should start the show by saying congrats in all your success.
I'm looking at the website and as a 414, according to this thing that you've got up there, you're
over $1.3 billion in assets, which is super impressive considering that you're, what, three
years old?
A little less than three, yeah.
Almost three years old.
Amazing credit to you guys.
So that's a good transition to where we're going.
I saw a tweet thread from Eric Beltchunus last week about the flows into Vanguard.
Was basically saying that Vanguard was more or less the only buyer of US equities.
Eric's word's not mine, but you guys are refreshingly not Vanguard.
So with that as a backdrop, who is Simplify for people that might not have heard your
story before?
Hey, I'd love Vanguard's flows.
Who are we?
We're basically a new-ish ETF shop less than three years.
Our niche is what we hope to be a very big category one day.
We're really focused on the alternatives part of the market, particularly things like
diversification ETFs or things like income.
We think there's a big unmet demand for that.
If you think about all of the sort of long-term strategies and hedge funds and other institutional
strategies, I think that's the next frontier for ETFs and we want to be the party that
brings it to the ETF market.
You mentioned that a big part of what you do is focusing on income and alternatives.
Has the thinking at all on income products changed now that there actually is some income
elsewhere in the treasury space?
I just had lunch with someone actually and he said he works for a company that does high
yield strategies and he said he couldn't believe he was at a conference where all anyone
wanted to talk about T-bills.
Does the change in yield change any the way that you look at this space or do you look
at that as well as some competition, but those aren't going to last forever?
Well probably the last decade we've had sort of the Tina, there's no alternatives to equities.
It made sense to maximize your equity allocation almost.
Now all of a sudden treasuries and even things like T-bills are giving you a nice fat yield.
That's a massive opportunity why it takes people out of their sort of complacent equity
mindset and now they're looking at other things and that money in motion whether it's going
into money market funds, T-bills, credit, it just creates a lot of opportunity and sort
of a mindset of looking outside of the equity market.
So your biggest fund by assets is the interest rate hedge ETF, tickers P-fix.
By the way, we're going to get into this later.
You've got some great tickers, CTA.
I can't even believe that was available.
I was just thinking about that too.
That one's open.
It's pretty good for managed futures.
That's the managed futures one.
You've got a Bitcoin one, the ticker is maxi which is funny.
We'll get to that later.
But all right, the Simplify interest rate hedge ETF.
There's a quarter billion dollars here which is quite a lot of money.
Did you see what the performance was last year, Michael?
Good.
It was up like 90 some percent, right, Paul?
Yeah, it was pretty big winner.
And the basic idea is how do you hedge interest rate risk and we launched out of time when
rates were very low?
May 21, credit to you guys.
It was awesome, great timing.
And it's an example of what we try to do in the market which is provide access to something
in this case.
It's a very, very deep liquid part of the rates market, things like payer swabptions.
And big institutions or treasury departments of large corporations use these to hedge out
their interest rates banks.
And that market is essentially inaccessible unless you have is, doesn't place.
These are big agreements with banks.
Very, very hard to get, almost impossible to get as an individual or an advisor.
And so packaging some of these very cost effective, very efficient interest rate derivatives
in 20 ETF and bringing them to market and then helping people hedge out interest rate
risk.
I mean, that was the basic thesis behind the ETF.
It worked really well.
I wish it were even bigger.
I think it could have helped a lot more portfolios.
But again, it's an example of what we're trying to do.
Is this almost like put options on interest rates?
Or is the reason that it was up so much last year because the rate move was so strong?
Curious, how was this fund up so much?
Are you trying to get the tails?
Or was it just because rates moved so much last year?
Yes, to both.
I think this is a very concentrated portfolio of options, officially options on swab.
So think of it as like you have a bunch of put options on 30 year treasuries.
It's similar to that type of exposure.
And anytime you have options on something, I mean, what drives option prices?
It's two things.
It's really, well, there's multiple things.
But the two dominant things are level, so what interest rates are dominating right now?
Are they going up or down?
And then vol.
And if you think about the vol of rates, there's a great index, the move index, which
one of my colleagues, Harley Basman, created.
And that index has gone up a lot because all of a sudden rates are moving a lot.
So the value of these options benefited both from the rising level of interest rates as
well as rising rate fall.
But then anytime you're buying an option, the timing of it and the carrying cost of options
is such a massive factor.
And so the genius behind this Harley Basman found a part of the market where a rate fall
was relatively cheap.
It was relatively neutral carrying.
So you have a way to serve by these super long dated options, carry them well and their
position to do well when rates go up or when vol goes up.
I'm not asking you for a specific recommendation, but let's say you nailed the rate timing and
you hedged rates last year and now you come into this year and you say, well, I think
we're going to recession and rates are going to fall now.
What's the product and simplify that can take advantage of that?
So we have two.
One is to a TUA, like the quarterback.
And that's basically 5X the two year treasury future.
So it's a very concentrated front of the curve position.
My former employer PIMCO used to do similar trades and your dollar or treasuries.
And it's basically the classic recession trade in fixed income where you buy a bunch of front
maturity bonds and when eventually the Fed starts to ease, rates drop.
And that part of the curve is the biggest beneficiary.
So that's one way to position portfolio for that.
The other is TIA, which is, hey, just I just want a lot of duration.
That's about 3X the 10 year treasury future.
Again, that's a massive amount of duration.
And instead of getting it in like one part of the curve like TLT, you're getting it in
the belly.
The belly tends to react faster than sort of just the long end to a recession or to slow
down.
So either of those things work, it'd be almost the reverse of what P fixes.
So if you had inside information into the Fed, if you had a direct line to what your own
power was going to do, you'd want to get long either to or what was the other one?
Or TIA.
But to the best time to put on this type of position is on or right after the last rate
hike.
So we're probably in the right zip code already and it's seen a lot of good flows given that
it's a brand new ETF.
Paul, you can't control fund flows.
I'm sure you wish that a quarter billion dollars went into P fix before it was up 90%
and not after.
So I guess with that said, who are your investors?
Are these advisor led flows?
Are these super sophisticated DIYers?
I mean, this is complex stuff.
So I know you might not know exactly, but where do you think your flows are coming from?
I think the dominant share of our flows are RAs.
So advisors, independent advisors who have views on the market, who have an investment
process.
And not every investment advisor out there is going to have a view on a yield curve or
a Fed policy.
But there are plenty of people who do or who just want to diversify out of certain risks.
If you're worried about the ration risk, you didn't want to have to completely revamp
your portfolio.
You add a 5% or 10% allocation to something like P fix and you've had an awesome experience
last year.
I would say that, but then we're increasingly starting to see much larger asset managers
who still want the sort of convenience of an ETF.
And maybe they don't want to set up the is the maybe they don't want to set up collateral
management to manage futures.
And they want to outsource that.
And so we're starting to talk to a lot of those much larger prospects as well.
Michael mentioned that you got the CTA ticker for managed features was nicely done.
That's a strategy that out of a lot of other strategies that struggled last year, that
strategy had a pretty good year relatively speaking and depending on how you manage it,
that depends on how it did.
But there's a lot of different ways to run that type of strategy.
Some people run managed futures and they use a million different things that every type
of commodity can think of.
They use rates, they use fixed income, these equities, these commodities.
How do you go about doing it?
Because again, there's certain areas that you could pick to focus on or like go up and
I'm just curious how you do that.
Well, I think first before you even get to the specific manager, which we love the manager
that we're partnering up with here.
But I think the asset class or the strategy itself is one of the most effective ways to
hedge a 60-40 portfolio and most implementations of managed futures at significant diversification
benefits.
Our version was designed specifically for that and so it has a negative correlation
to the 60-40.
Sort of a 10 or 20% allocation would meaningfully improve the risk of just the returns.
It would have obviously helped and has helped portfolios and periods like last year.
When do managed futures do best?
They do best in trending markets up or down.
They do best in environments where inflation is going up or where commodities benefit or
where you have a market volatility.
They're kind of a tail risk hedging in that they could go short exposures when most other
funds and strategies are mostly long.
It's a great first alternative to implement into a lot of portfolios I think.
It's like a gateway alternative.
Exactly.
Very easy one where again adding a modest allocation meaningfully changes the portfolio
risk.
When we found somebody or really it's Michael Green's friends, they were long-term CTA.
They have their own private funds and they were people from the Goldman metals desk.
There's a lot of experience there and it's all quantitative.
At minimum they're going to track the broad CTA market but specifically we took out things
like equities and focus just on commodities and rates because we wanted to be a diversified
60-40.
I don't have the numbers on this.
I could be completely out of line here.
I would guess that dollar weighted returns in managed futures have not been good because
even though they might be a wonderful diversifier, I think investors have a tendency certainly
myself included to have the inability to focus on the pie and really focus on the pieces.
When you've got a position, if you've got a strategy that can't survive a bull market
in equities, man that's really, really, really difficult to stick with over the long term
even if it can be a wonderful diversifier.
So I think in this case unlike tail risk strategies or things where you're expected, returns
are negative here.
I think the benchmark itself, the SockGen CT benchmark for example, has had a positive
return and so you're getting diversification, i.e. a negative correlation to the 60-40 for
our strategy, flatish probably for many others, but you're getting a positive expected return.
So even if you just think of it as almost like a cash allocation that gets a little
bit of extra carry long term, that's okay.
It adds ballast but it doesn't necessarily pull out a lot of drag.
Is this an options-based strategy too?
Like most of those stuff you do?
Nope, this one's a pure future strategy and it vests across very liquid commodities and
a couple of rates markets and it's again been designed, ground up to be a diversifier.
Okay, that sounds like a very naive question by me because it's not called a managed option
strategy is it?
It's managed-
Is it long short?
It can go long-intered and I think that's again one of the features of a managed futures
is that you can go short exposures.
So when commodities sell off, managed futures will do better generally than a long only
commodity basket.
So I think where you see commodities and portfolios, it's been like GLD or like long gold, long
oil and things like that or one of those long only baskets.
And that's been a very mixed bag.
It's probably net zero, probably maybe even negative, but something like a managed future
as an alternative to just being long only commodities, we think it's a pretty good value
proposition.
I'm sure a lot of what you all do at Simplify is educating advisors and giving them the
education so that they can educate their investors.
I would imagine that you work with a lot of model portfolio providers because what you
do is so sophisticated that I'm sure that there are advisors that come to you and say,
Paul, I love your products, but I don't necessarily know how to build a portfolio using them,
mixing them with Vanguard or whatever.
So if an advisor comes to you and says, help me with like my model portfolio, what do you
do with that person?
Help them with their model portfolio.
So we have our own proprietary systems, multi-asset modeling software that can look across mutual
funds, ETFs or single stocks, and we could show and demonstrate allocations to alternatives,
whether it's our own or someone else's, and model things out, back test things for them
on a quest and just basically provide a platform for them to evaluate portfolio level risk.
And I think we had to build that one for ourselves from product development, which is where it
started, but then secondly, that's been a massive and important thing to have to have
these sort of conversations because yeah, the number one question on all is sizing.
Even if I believe managed futures or some of our other ETFs were interesting, how the
heck do I use it?
What's the appropriate size?
And I think that back and forth and modeling of portfolios is one very important and then
they need to be able to communicate that to their clients and it really informs people
what to expect.
And delivering what people expect is I think the number one rule for any asset management
firm.
I'm just curious how you set expected return boundaries or expected risk boundaries for
these types of strategies when obviously no one knows exactly what the returns are going
to be in the financial markets, even if you're using stocks and bonds.
But how do you help set expectations in terms of giving advisors a range of expected returns
based on different scenarios?
It's rarely given like forward expected returns.
It's mostly back tests where they look at what would it have done in 2008?
What would it have done in 2020?
2022 is like an awesome example for a lot of portfolios.
What does it do?
What would a portfolio do when rates and equities are going in the wrong direction together?
So it's more of that I think and then on the perspective side it's more you can model out
things like volatility which tends to be fairly persistent over long periods.
So it's not about forward looking returns.
It's really about forward looking risks and correlations and eyeballing different parts
of the market.
And we all tend to sort of think that way.
I think that's a classic.
Anytime you see historical returns people zoom in on a couple of periods that they remember
from their own investing.
Paul, I'd love your take on this.
You have a Talvary strategy.
The ticker is CIA, CYA which is pretty good.
Great ticker.
The great ticker.
So there's a lot of debate amongst quant nerds that I mean that not pejoratively at all
about this sort of strategy.
Ben and I were just talking about the 3,600% return of whatever it was last week.
That was in the news.
This is my uninformed take.
I love the idea of a Talvary strategy.
This idea that you can bleed, I'm making it up 3 to 5% a year, but you can get a 50%
gain or whatever the number is when the VIX spikes you sell, you rebalance and kumbaya.
However, I think that scenario that I just described is very attractive to everyone who
wouldn't want that sort of protection.
And so that leads to this weird dynamic where maybe the option strategy or the structure
or whatever the heck is difficult to actually implement and really make money.
Can you set the record straight or correct anything that I said that was not accurate?
It's totally accurate.
You're essentially trying to buy insurance and you're hoping that cost of insurance is
lower than the realized gains down the road.
You said it better.
Yeah, historically it's worked out, but positioning matters a lot.
And in a weird way, the option market has, even though it's much smaller than the broader
equity market or fixed income market, it feels like any given day, the tail is wagging the
dog.
So, what does that mean?
It means anytime people are buying a ton of insurance, it actually impacts the market
and it's less likely to fall at that period.
You almost want to buy this insurance when vols are low, when insurance is not being chased
when everyone's complacent.
So it feels like a pretty good time period right now.
Like right now, the fix is like 17.
Yeah, everyone makes fun of you for buying tail risk strategies or buying puts, but that's
the kind of environment you need where all the sort of people who were hedging got burned
and they learned not to hedge.
That's when markets are positioned to potentially have some falls.
For advisors, isn't the answer.
Mike and I talked about this.
The answer is really rebalancing.
If you have something like this that works and you see it work in the environment that
you want it to work in, then you have to be willing to take some chips off the table
and not get married to it.
And then when it's not working, you also have to lean into the pain.
I think that's the hard part for advisors is to take some profits from something that's
doing well and then lean into the pain when things aren't going so well.
But that's exactly what these strategies are for because obviously no environment lasts
forever.
It's a type of strategy that has a negative correlation, so even if the expected return
weren't negative, it would still be useful for portfolio context.
It only works if somebody can rebalance and is using that gain to plow back and rebalance
into the market.
But there's different ways to hedge in this market.
The buying the put or being long vol has been a lousy trade the past couple of years and
frankly longer outside of March 2020, just hasn't worked very well.
What has worked selling calls, covered call strategies has worked really well, being in
cash, having the optionality of buying things later, and sidestepping the cost of insurance
has worked.
Managed futures last year works.
We have another strategy, CDX, that takes a long basket of quality names and short basket
of junk names.
And that does well when financial conditions tighten and it gets harder to finance stuff.
Quality minus junk, as it's called, is another thing that works.
There's all these different tools.
It's very complicated for the average advisor to think about, but building some of these
exposures as a way to diversify your diversifiers.
There's an opportunity for that and we want to be in that conversation.
And I think some of the most innovative RAs out there that some of you are friends with
as well are thinking about things like that.
We want to be part of that push to add diversification into portfolios.
I love the idea of diversifying your diversifiers and just looking through your line up.
We've got for people that are interested to go to simplify.us slash ETFs, there's a really,
really clean user interface where you could search through all of the ETFs here.
You really do have something for every environment it looks like, but the challenge is as an
investor is not piling into something that you wish you owned last quarter.
Exactly.
Or trying to predict which of these exposures will work.
So it's the mindset.
Diversification is still the only free lunch in all of finance.
Diversifying your diversifiers is a good concept, but it's hard to implement for average people
or average advisors certainly as well.
It is it worth the effort?
Perhaps a very basic, third cheap, 60-40 type portfolio has worked amazingly for the last
for decades.
But every now and then you see a 2022 and all of a sudden, inflation's kind of out there
again and all these sort of risks are out there.
It doesn't make sense to carve out 5, 10, 20% of a portfolio and add to more absolute return
strategies or diversification strategies.
I think the environment's set up for that.
And 60-40 type portfolios have gone decades without returns as well.
So you've lost decades.
So having a little bit of alts, I think, is a decent way to sort of think about portfolios.
I think one of the last things we talked to you, you had the volatility premium.
As well come out.
And I think it was just getting started.
Maybe you could just kind of give us an update on that one.
Remind us and the listeners how that thing works and how you're extracting some income
from the VIX.
So what is the VIX?
The VIX is basically average sort of option premium and 30-day options on the S&P 500.
So think of it as both calls and puts.
You're selling a bunch of options across all strikes.
And that premium is what the VIX is measuring.
One, there tends to be a price for insurance.
So the premium for these options tend to be higher than what really happens to markets
to realize.
The implied premium in options is higher than realized about 80%, 90% of the time.
So selling insurance is profitable 80%, 90% plus percent of the time.
Every now and then a car gets in an accident or a house gets on fire.
And the insurance company has to pay that premium back, pay on the policy.
So S-Fall basically is, if you will, an insurance company selling insurance or an option, market
maker selling options into the market.
You're the house.
Yeah.
And you're collecting the premium over most periods.
But every once in a while, VIX spikes and you see smoke, people panic and that gets
a mark-to-market loss and it's a very volatile exposure to have during those times.
But like insurance, you want to make sure you're sizing and you have the right balance
sheet to underwrite that policy.
So S-Fall instead of selling 100% VIX features, it sells somewhere in the 20 to 30% so it's
never fully invested in selling.
So it's got a lot of cash.
And then we also are very paranoid about selling options.
So any option that we sell, we tend to sell in some sort of spread format.
So in this case, we're selling VIX, but we're also buying call options on VIX.
So VIX really spikes.
We have the other side of that trade.
And so I think that's an example.
Okay.
What is that result for people?
It results in probably one of the best equity income strategies out there.
It's consistently delivered in the high teens distribution yield.
It compares very favorably to all the sort of covered call type strategies out there.
It has much lower beta and lower volatility than most of these strategies as well.
So it's a very interesting way to get income.
Again, in the high teens, have some equity alternative in that it has some beta to the
equity market, but it's more defensive than many of the covered call strategies out there.
So Paul, for somebody that's listening, who might say, hey, wait a minute, wasn't there
like a VIX product that blew up?
Wasn't there like an XIV type thing?
XIV.
Actually, who your partner was way ahead of that blowup?
Oh, yeah.
I mean, from making that call.
So for people whose alarm bells might be tingling, can you just set the record straight?
How is this completely different from that product?
Sure.
So XIV, when it blew up, it was basically a 100% short exposure that's roughly 100% volatility.
At some point, it was going to probably go to zero and pretty much got there.
If you're shorting something that can really spike instantly overnight and it did that.
So what are we doing that's different?
Even though that trade is expected positive value, sizing matters a lot.
So if you can't withstand the mark to market hit, guess what?
You're not going to be in that business long.
And so sizing it to a quarter of the size of XIV is a massive benefit to write out some
of these periods.
And then again, what we did was we bought calls on the VIX so we further protect ourselves
from these spikes.
And then that allows you to collect the very decent premium.
You're not as high yielding at the best of times, but over a meaningful holding period,
you actually out-earned a 100% inverse strategy.
One of the reasons that hedge funds performed so poorly in the 2010s that I think a lot
of people outside of the investment world didn't really realize is that because cash
yields were so low, a lot of times those type of hedging strategies you mentioned are sitting
on cash.
And if you're not earning anything in that cash, that actually hurts your return.
That's one of the reasons that in the 80s and 90s, hedge funds had this boost in their
returns.
So do you have any strategies like that because you're using options and you're using derivatives
that a lot of your strategies are having some implicit leverage that you have cash to sit
on that actually are helped by T-bills?
Does that work for your strategies at all?
Yeah.
So, for example, is mostly T-bills or short duration fixed income?
And again, if you're earning 4, 5, 6% potentially on these things, that's immediately helpful.
Separately, we have dedicated strategies, buck, which is kind of like an alternative to a
low duration fund or stable nav type fund or high, which is an alternative to an high
yield ETF and basically both of those strategies sit in T-bills, collect the now very attractive
yield and then do a little bit of option selling.
And our philosophy on what we sell in options, again, we only want spread, so we have a max
loss on any position.
And at least in the strategies of buck and high, we're selling a basket of options that
are self-diversifying.
What does that mean?
We're not just selling SPX or NASDAQ options, we're going to sell ratefall alongside it
in potentially sector ETFs and things so that the basket is designed to be a much lower
risk sale than a single exposure.
And it also allows us to go across asset classes and sectors and find, oh man, fixed income
vol is really expensive relative to history versus the S&P or NASDAQ, which is kind of
low right now.
Let's go sell a little bit more ratefall than we would on the equity side.
And so we're harvesting that, but we're self-diversifying that basket.
We're making sure it's a spread so it never blows up in any one period.
And we're selling very short maturity options that tend to bleed very quickly.
What is that net result?
Highs had a distribution yield in the mid-9s with essentially very low duration and no
credit risk.
It's given about a 4 or 5% yield and it has a very similar volatility to a very low duration
fund.
Paul, when we were talking about the VIX, I forgot to ask, there's been a lot of chatter
about the VIX.
Is it broken?
Does it still do what it's saying it does?
And I know you all do a lot of work on like inner market analysis, market structure type
stuff.
Could you talk about how people are using the VIX, maybe if they're trading shorter dated
VIX type stuff and the rise of zero-day to expiration options?
What's going on there?
What's the story?
The high-level story is the implied vol, the VIX, which is based on the price of options,
implied vols, trails and is dependent on realized vols.
So the number one headline is realized vols.
What's actually happening, the underlying equity benchmarks aren't moving that much.
I mean, they're choppy, they're going sideways.
So if you just close your eyes, ignore all the headlines and all the scary research reports
out there, fact this equity's really been pretty docile.
That's the number one thing.
And then number two, there's a lot of headlines and you see sharp, intraday moves, the zero
DTE options definitely help impact day to day.
But on balance, it's probably lowered vols.
A lot of these are a bunch of people selling puts on a day.
So like it actually squishes, falls down most of time.
So I don't think we've heard the end of what these things are going to do to the market.
But on that, it creates a lot of headlines.
It creates what feels like sharp intraday moves.
But over each day, it really hasn't done much other than generally lowering vol.
All right, Paul, where can we send people, learn more about your ETFs?
www.simplify.us.
We'd love to take advisors to our analytics platforms and talk about some of these ideas.
We'd want to sort of make the case to add alts and income into most portfolios and just
love to hear different problems that hopefully we could help solve.
Before I let you go, I would love to be a fly on the wall to see you guys talking about
different future strategies that you all are putting together.
Sounds like it's a lot of fun.
It is a lot of fun.
It feels like back in iPhone days, hey, there's an after that.
There's an ETF for that.
It's so fun right now in my seat where we have these big investor problems.
We have a suddenly large toolkit post the river's rule.
It's been two years where all of a sudden ETFs can embed a lot of interesting diversifiers
and leverage basically.
At the same time, I think the stigma around these sort of type of exposures has diminished
and people are looking to hedge risks or take exposures on that they wouldn't have 10 years
ago.
It's just this really awesome time to be in product development, awesome time to be facing
20,000 RAs and all have different views and basically provide tools for that crowd.
It's been just a fun couple of years working with our team.
Well, thanks again for coming on.
We appreciate your time and happy birthday.
Thanks so much.
Thanks for having me on.
Okay, thanks to Paul, remember check out Simplify.us slash ETF to learn more about their products.
Send us an email and most spirits, pi2gmail.com.
Thanks for having me.
Thank you.
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