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Welcome to Animal Spirits, a shell about markets, life, and investing.
Join Michael Batnik and Ben Carlson as they talk about what they're reading, writing,
and watching.
All opinions expressed by Michael and Ben are solely their own opinion and do not reflect
the opinion of Redholst wealth management.
This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon for any
investment decisions.
Clients of Redholst wealth management may maintain positions in the securities discussed
in this podcast.
Welcome to Animal Spirits with Michael and Ben.
I've told this story before a bit but I want to take for granted that all of our listeners
have been listening to everywhere that we've said.
I started using directions products in the early days, probably 2010.
I used to think it was called Direction because, you know, what did I know?
You were an old adopter.
What did I know?
I remember I was a part-time worker.
What's that called?
I was a temp.
Temporary employee.
That's what stands for.
I was a temp employee at...
I was going to say it's called unemployed, but no.
You actually did have a job, okay.
No, literally.
I was a temporary employee at City.
Now that yes, but what did I do?
I was watching like the training videos, like the harassment videos of this video, the
compliance videos, just to make sure that they did what they always had to read this.
Hey, those are tough days.
You gave some notes to the people on the harassment videos?
No, to the people making them, not to the people watching them.
Anyhow, in order to pass time and to tickle the itch that I had in the markets, I was
training directions products on my blackberry from my desk and it was great fun.
The ones that I was training, I was late to the game, I was training the...
Now, mind you, this 2010, you know, several months after the stock market bottom, banks
had already gone down 90% whatever it is.
You know what?
This genius idea was, I'm going to short banks with leverage.
So you were banking on the double-dip recession?
I was an FAZ guy, which was the financial bear.
And credit to me, I learned very early how these products work.
These are training vehicles as we'll get into the conversation with Ed.
These are not to be bought and held.
What are you laughing at then?
Nothing.
Sorry.
I could see you smirking.
So direction has come a long way since the early days of when I first found them.
If they do a lot more than just leverage, although that is their bread and butter and
we have a lot of fun talking.
Thirty billion dollars in assets, which I'm sure there's a great fluctuation.
The interesting, most interesting thing about this conversation that we had with Ed
Eglinsky who we've had him before is you were kind of asking him, do you think most
of the people who follow your products and use your products because most of them are
meant to be very short-term in nature are trend followers?
And he said, sure, there are some trend followers, but there's a lot of people who also try
to top tick or bottom tick these products, which I think is way, way harder, especially
in a short-term.
If I'm a short-term trader, trend is the only thing I care about.
And it's funny that people still, I think it's just like you assume.
You're not a short-term trader.
Listen.
Speaking for the traders, we like to assume that there's extra points for difficulty.
Like if you make more money catching a bottomer top, oh, called it.
But you do just make your money just in the direction of the trade, which obviously
is harder and dumber, but our brains are broken and that's just the way it goes for someone.
So it feels weird to say, I'm going to buy this thing that already went up a lot because
I think it's going to go up a little more.
And you see this thing that went down a lot and you go, oh, it can't go down any further.
And that's usually what happens, though.
They keep going in the trend.
They're going in so tight.
Yeah.
Watch it.
They keep going.
Yes, it can.
But that is interesting going to be that people try to do that, because that's the
opposite of what I would try as a strategy.
That's what you think.
If I ever do it.
Ben, get into the arena.
Try some things.
All right.
Here's our conversation with the Ed Eglinsky.
We're joined today by Ed Eglinsky.
Ed is the manager director and head of sales and distribution and alternatives at direction
Ed.
Welcome back.
Thanks for having me back.
All right.
When I think of direction, I think of the leveraged ETF setting that's where you made
your bones.
I don't know where that phrase came from, but I don't, you know, not from me.
I don't know where I came from.
Remind the audience.
You've been on before, but just bring us back up to speed.
How do you all use leverage inside of the ETF?
How does the actual sausage get made?
Sure.
On a bull fund, a leverage bull fund will look to either own a basket of the physical stock
that the respective ETF index is tracking, and then what's called a swap on that index
or ETF to provide the leverage.
So that's just the derivative we use with a lot of the major banks to provide that daily
leverage exposure.
And then we have some cash on hand as well because of the margin to equity, not requiring
a hundred cents on the dollar to get 300 cents of exposure, for example, on a 3X product.
So there'll be some cash as well on the short side or the bear side.
We don't hold any physical.
We just hold a swap on that respective index, providing that leverage point, and there's
also cash on hand as well.
How does the interest rate environment impact the cost of that leverage because if you have
a margin account somewhere, you're probably paying, I don't know, 89% right now to borrow
against your portfolio and put it into something else.
Does those higher rates trickle down into the swap rates and the options?
How does that work?
Yeah, I mean, without getting into the minutiae, certainly the swap rates in terms of the
borrow will be a little higher when interest rates are higher, but also the collateral will
be receiving more as well for the cash on hand.
So when you look at using these products, first of all, they're for short term active
traders as we all know.
And for most clients, if they want to get leveraged, they're going to have to utilize margin.
With this type of structure as an ETF, you're getting that magnified exposure through the
ETF wrapper.
So I would say on average, it's probably more cost efficient to do it through a packaged
ETF, even with a little bit of the higher cost for the swap because you're getting a higher
yield on the collateral or cash portion.
And also, you don't have the unlimited liability in a packaged ETF, you'll liability's
limited to your initial investment.
So for a lot of investors out there, might be difficult to get margin.
Also the rates might be much higher at this point.
Here's a way to get that leverage exposure in a packaged ETF, albeit they should know
the risks associated with it.
And on the short side, guys, it's even harder, you know, try to borrow stock or borrow
a basket of stocks to short in terms of a lot of trading platforms may not even let you
do that because of the unlimited liability.
So here's a way to take a bearish leverage position or non-leveraged bearish position
again with your liability being limited to the initial investment.
At leverage can be used responsibly, but it could also be dangerous in the hands of people
that don't know much about it.
So let's not assume that that listeners are well versed in these products.
I'm sure a lot of people that are listening right now have traded them and understand that
these are not to be bought and held, but assume you're talking to a new listener, somebody
that's new and would like to use leverage and likes the structure and ease of getting
in and out of these products.
Can you talk about why these things should not necessarily be bought and held, why these
are more active vehicles as opposed to buying hold vehicles?
Sure.
First off, of course, the leverage magnifies the risk, whether you're taking a bullish
bearish position.
So this is definitely for people that are not risk-adverse, that want to take on risk.
In terms of the trading vehicle and how it works, the timing matters when trading leverage
and inverse.
You need to know how the mechanisms of these work and the daily reset of leverage, which
I think is key, because when you hold these for one day, it should track that underlying
index with whatever leverage point for that given day.
But after one day, there's going to be what's called compounding.
That could work for or against you, and these are path-dependent.
So the timing and the trend matters when you hold these.
So these are important for the clients to know that these are timing vehicles and you're
timing matters.
Let me just give you a quick example.
Let's say you have a triple-everage bull product, and you have $100 to start.
The first day, your underlying index is up 5%.
So that means you made 15% the first day, so your 100 goes to $115.
But unfortunately, on the second day, that same index is down 5% the underlying index.
So you lost 15% the second day, you're below $100 after two days.
So that's a simple two-day example of compounding.
You can't just add up the two days, I'm up 15% one day, I'm down 15% the next, I'm
back to 100, because of compounding, you're actually down after two days.
So you really need to know how these work before you should consider trading these.
And the most important thing is the daily reset of leverage, and when you own these beyond
one day, and the timing and the path of that underlying index is imperative to whether
or not that leverage could work for you or against you.
I'm curious how much of a trend you see in the products, obviously, there are times
when certain things are hitting in times when they're not.
In 2022, when bonds and stocks both got crushed, did you see a huge inflow into all the
bearish products?
Well, it's interesting.
We saw a lot of inflows in bears, but we also saw some inflows in the bulls as well because
of the fact that people were buying on the dip.
Unfortunately, if you were trading for the most of the year, that buying on the dip mentality,
depending on what we're talking about, didn't work.
Now as we move into 2023, we're seeing a lot of continued interest in the bear funds
and some profit taking on the bull funds.
But with that said, there's still some bull funds that have gotten a significant amount
of inflows this year.
So it really depends on the time period that you're referring to and where it's trending
during that period of time to determine what our inflows or outflows would be.
But just to give you an example of how these are being used correctly is all you have to
do is look at the trading volume of our leverage in inverse ETFs on a given day.
And you could have a situation where over the course of a couple of days, you could trade
the assets of that ETF.
And that's how they're designed for highly active trading and to monitor these on a day-to-day
basis.
Do you think that you would have any, let's say that there was a really sophisticated
AI model that was built around the flows coming into and out of your products.
Do you think based on that alone, there would be any predictive ability on what the market
might do in the short term, or is this just a reflection of how the market performed
over the last seven days, seven to ten days based on the underlying instruments?
It's a good question.
Some people look at the contrarian indicators, but when you look at our flows, for example,
and our assets, on average, it's still a high propensity towards bull funds.
I think people have less of a propensity to short by nature.
As a result of that, we're always skewed towards the bull side in terms of when you look
at our total assets, but with that said, there are periods of time where we see significant
inflows in bear funds either to protect short-term gains or an outright short that they
want to initiate.
For example, in video this month, we just launched the one-and-a-half times bull non-leveraged
inverse bear on Nvidia.
Now, it's up 200 percent roughly for the year, give or take what's happening today, yet
this month, Nvidia is down 12 percent, so the timing matters, so you could have a one-and-a-half
times bull that's really worked out well for you in Nvidia, but at the same time, if
you timed it properly this month, you know, if you were short in Nvidia, non-leveraged
inverse short, you made money, so it really depends.
But I think the best example of showing why these are not long-term holds is you look
at Yin and Yang this year, for example.
That's the triple leverage.
Some people might be familiar with the China FTSE 50 or FXI, which is the non-leveraged
version.
We have a triple leverage bull in bear, Yin and Yang on that China FTSE 50.
Both the bull in bear are down this year.
Why?
Because it's been volatility in both directions, and it tends to be decay when that happens.
If you hold the leverage products for a long periods of time, if there's a lot of volatility
and no directional or discernible one-way movement, so you could have got that you could
have nailed the macro on this and said, we think Chinese stocks are still going to get
crushed because of all the stuff that they're going through.
But if you put this trade on, this bear times three, the Yang fund, and hell on to it,
you'd have lost money.
Correct.
That's a great lesson.
Yeah.
I mean, the same thing with regional banks.
That's another one.
We have a triple leverage bull on the regional banks, DPST.
If you timed it right and owned it in the month of March, you would have got crushed.
You would have lost over 60% in DPST because the regional banks, which attracts, had a horrific
downward month and some unfortunate bankruptcies there.
But if you look at July and timed it probably the month of July, regional banks really had
a strong month, and DPST, which is the triple leverage, was up over 60%.
So when I mention the timing matters, these are timing vehicles.
They're not to be held indefinitely.
Ben, Ben, this is for you.
It's for people like me.
It's for people like me.
Well, my follow-up here is we get questions all the time from people who say, listen,
I'm in my 20s or 30s.
I have 30 or 40 years ahead of me to save.
Why couldn't I just put my money?
And I understand the volatility is going to be way higher.
Why couldn't I just put my money into two times S and P 500 and then I'll be fine.
Are any of those two times, you need five times.
But are there any of them that can be okay to buy and hold?
Are they all just because of the reset and the volatility that you're really setting
yourself up for danger potentially?
Well, certainly two and three X for sure.
We have the one and a half on the single stocks.
So if you were going to use it like some financial professionals do, as what's called portable
alpha, what does that mean in English basically using the leverage to free up capital within
the portfolio and putting in other asset classes like non-carlated asset classes?
So for example, if you have a one and a half times product like on Nvidia and you want
to not put 100 cents on the dollar in Nvidia, you could take two thirds to get 100 cents
on the dollar and take that other third and put it in other types of investments that
diversify the portfolio.
The one caveat there is you have to rebalance to keep that ratio intact.
But you got to monitor that still day to day week to week on that.
But the lower the leverage point, there's going to be less of the compounding impact.
So you could make the case of maybe holding it, but you still got to monitor it day to day
and there's going to be compounding regardless of the leverage point.
Now a non-leveraged inverse like our SPDN, we have a lot of individuals that are holding
that longer knowing that the K is going to be nominal because it's a non-leveraged inverse
on the S&P 500 still have to monitor it day to day.
But some individuals are using that in the portfolio as maybe a hedge or to reduce their
large cap beta in the US.
So it's a way to reduce beta or to take it out right short trade and if you're wrong,
you could be less wrong.
So the financial professionals though are going in and out of these two and three X products,
the same way is sophisticated retail.
These are trading vehicles and if you're hedging with two and three X, you've got to realize
that these are short-term ways to hedge.
And what's the ticker for the two time levered industrial ETF?
We don't have it two times, we have it three times.
What's the ticker?
A DSL.
I was just testing it, man, you're good.
How many tickers do you have in your brain?
A lot.
I've been here 12 years.
So I can rattle them off all day, but nobody wants to hear that.
They want to.
Are you ready for an industrial trade, Michael?
No, just, I was just testing him.
Credit to Ed.
All right, so I would guess that people that are using leverage are more likely to be trend
followers than they are trying to catch the bottom.
In other words, if the stock market's going up, they're more likely to buy leverage on
the bull as opposed to saying, no, no, no, no, this is the top.
I'm going to leverage the bear conversely if a stock is going down, I'm guessing that
they're probably going to be shorty as opposed to catching the bottom and going the other
way.
I know there's probably exceptions all over the place, but would you say, is that generally
true or do you not see it that way?
No, we see a lot of contrarian flow in terms of when something is rallying, we tend to
see being used properly and selling on those rallies and possibly buying the bear funds.
So it really depends, the technical trend follow, the short term trend follower may act
in that regard because they're using technicals, but don't forget a lot of people look at headlines
and macro events too and trade off of that.
So that's good and technicals as well.
So when we look at a lot of money managers, hedge funds are utilizing our products within
their strategies, but as short term trading vehicles.
I don't know if there is even is like an average for an ETF because obviously it all depends
on how people use them, but how much more would you say that your funds turn over than the
regular buy and hold ETF?
Well, let's put it this way.
We could have a couple of billion dollar fund, for example, that can turn over in three,
four days or even sooner, depending on the other index.
So it's a lot different than owning socks versus socks, seller socks, yes, which are triple
leverage, bull and bear semi conductors.
So they should be used differently, but let's not dilute ourselves.
Semiconductors has a high beta.
There's risk to socks.
It's just that that is a non-leveraged vehicle and it's part of an overall diversification
within the equity portfolio and you might want to have something specific to semis in addition
to the broad indices that provide that exposure to you as well.
So if you see $3 billion in some double or triple bull or bear fund, that's not like
static $3 billion, that whole $3 billion could be bought and sold within a week or so.
Yeah, but on average, you got to look at the assets as a whole and the assets are going
to fluctuate in our broader suite of leveraging inverse different with our thematics.
So we're used to that and the underlying instruments we're using, we want to make sure that
that market is orderly, that the spreads are tight and that people could trade in and
out of these things freely.
Keep in mind, everything we're doing in the leverage in inverse space is tracking either
an equity index or a fixed income index like the 20 plus year treasury or 7 to 10 year
treasury or a single stock.
So everything that we're trading is on an underlying exchange.
There is no derivative of a derivative, let's say that.
So there's no leverage on something that's not in the equity exchanges or a fixed income.
I think something we've never asked you before, how big and nimble is your trading team?
Because I imagine that you have to be pretty versed in a lot of different markets and
different strategies and securities because you could have a fund that has $10 million
in it and something happens and blows up or goes crazy and you could have a billion
dollars in a couple months in it.
So how does the trading team handle stuff like that?
Well, it's all about the underlying.
As I mentioned in the beginning, it's what that underlying index is tracking, how we're
getting exposure to it.
So since we're using equity benchmarks, fixed income benchmarks, it's really all about
the underlying liquidity and making sure we can get that exposure on a day-to-day basis.
So that's the key.
In terms of getting underlying exposure to most of these indices, they're very liquid.
So we either will use a physical ETF in a lot of our international leverage in inverse
and a swap on that ETF or a basket of stocks and a swap on the index.
So it's all about the underlying and keep in mind also, the counterparties are providing
that swap exposure.
We just got to manage that exposure on a day-to-day basis.
So we reset the leverage back to 3X every day.
What about for something like commodities where it's not obviously a stock index?
Well, it's different.
We don't have any leverager inverse physical commodities.
Everything that we do in the commodity space is commodity-related equities.
So for example, we have leverage and inverse exposure on the energy selector index, which
of course is a basket of stocks.
Chevron and Exxon lead the way there.
And we also have it on the SAP oil gas exploration and production index.
So those are all baskets of stocks.
Same thing with the gold miners and junior gold miners, two ex-bullen bears there.
The only thing we have in the physical commodity space is non-leverage.
So if you wanted a pure commodity play that was more as a part of a diversification of an
overall portfolio, we have our comm ETF that could be utilized more strategic asset allocation
for clients to diversify their equity and bond exposure.
If they feel inflation is going to stay, you would want to own a broad basket of commodities.
The one distinction with the R product versus maybe the Goldman Sachs commodity index or
the Bloomberg commodity index, which are good proxies for the broader commodity space, but
they're static long only and you really can't hold those indefinitely.
You've got to be sort of tactical with it.
Our strategy actually will be longer in cash based on price trends and it's completely
rules based.
We licensed an index from a CTA commodity trading advisor, auspice capital.
It's been out there for many years, the index ETF's been over six years.
But one of the distinctions is it won't be static 100% long.
Right now, we're long six out of the 12 commodities.
It's not because I woke up in the morning and decided to do it.
It's because of price trends that we're tracking that index.
So we're long crude oil heating oil and gasoline.
That wasn't the case at the beginning of the year and as you guys know, there's been
a tremendous rally in energy stocks in the third quarter and along with crude oil and
although they're not directly related, I'm sure the increase in crude oil prices has
definitely been a tailwind for energy stocks and you're seeing that.
Are those, is that an equal weighted index then with the commodities or they waited close
to some benchmark?
It's equal weighted based on risk.
So when the positions put on, it'll size the position based on its current volatility
but it equal weights on risk.
So on average, a commodity will receive anywhere from seven to 15% depending on that underlying
commodity risk level when the positions put on.
So it's sort of a risk parity in that regard.
That's more of a buy and hold approach to commodity investing.
It tries to capture the majority of the commodity upside but also mitigate, try to mitigate
the downside risk that's often associated with broad commodity benchmarks because commodities
are very volatile and can be both to the up and down side.
Now I know direction has a wide suite of products but the market, I want to say of the market,
I'm talking about the S&P 500 has been fairly boring this year.
If VIX has been sub 15 for a few days or weeks, is there, do people over trade in
boring markets or are there more likely to be activity in your leverage products when
the VIX is say at 20 or 25?
Well, I think volatility always helps but also if you have low vol and a trending stair
stepping up market, which is for the most part what we've had this year, that provides
opportunity as well.
So if it's volatility that is extreme and is fluctuating and doesn't have a discernible
direction, that could be a difficult market for traders.
But this year, even though the vol has been low, the market is mostly stair stepped up.
But with that said, their opportunities on the short side, if you time it well also,
look at China this year, underperform the U.S. market the last couple of years, very
volatile this year and you could have had opportunity to make money on the bull end bear
side.
But the trend for the most part has been down, but there have been very dramatic spikes
to the upside, which China during the course of this year as well.
Have you seen an increase in interest in the fixed income products?
That's another one that's generally a boring market, but bonds have gotten killed.
So have you seen people trying to time that market as well?
Try asking any 60, 40 manager or target date fund, how they feel about how boring fixed
income was in 2022 and now in 2023.
So you're right.
The volatility is picked up there with the Fed and coincidentally, they're meeting today
and making a decision.
We're seeing a lot of volume on our TMF TMV, which is the triple average bull end bear
respectfully on the 20 plus year treasury.
We're also seeing trading on the 7 to 10 year, but unlike for the balance of the year,
the largest inflows of any of our tips this year has been TMF.
So people have been bucking the trend.
So our triple average bull on the 20 plus year, outside the first quarter, it's been
a challenge for the balance of the year when you're looking at US interest rates, they've
trended mostly higher.
It's interesting.
So the bull product for this has way more assets than the bear product by like a huge
multiple.
So you're right.
People are still trying to catch a fallen rates.
It looks like.
Yep.
On the 20 plus year in particular, but we're seeing in the 7 to 10 year to a much smaller
degree, I guess, as the duration goes out, the volatility might increase, which it should
ideally.
But if you look at this year, for example, short term rates have definitely been very
volatile in their own right, and you have an inverted yield curve right now.
But a lot of people like to trade off the headlines with with treasuries, you know, CPIPPI
last week, for example.
And then of course, it's not really what the Fed's going to do today, because I think
most pundits, they could be wrong, but most pundits feel that they're going to do nothing
today.
But certainly November, the next Fed meeting, the Fed fund futures at about 30, 40 percent
is telling you they may hike one more time again.
So that could catch people by surprise.
So the Fed commentary, forward looking guidance is going to be key today.
Where else are you seeing interest in terms of flows and the conversations that you're having
with your clients?
Well, we continue to see interest in some of the single stocks, particularly Tesla, Tsl
L and TslS, predominantly though on the bullseye, that crossed a billion dollars in assets,
and that's only been out a little over a year.
So you know, Tesla has a cult following all to its own, you know, it's had volume that's
been greater than the spy at times in a given day.
That's the Tesla.
Tesla?
Okay.
Got it.
So, but just to give you an idea of how popular it is and it's really trades on its own merits,
I think, and it's polarizing because you have musk and headlines always there.
So it's a perfect stock to trade because of the volatility and most this year it's been
to the upside.
Last year, of course, just the opposite.
We have actually a leverage, one and a half times bull, non-leveraged bear on six of
the seven, magnificent seven.
The only one we don't have it on is meta, and as I mentioned before, we just launched
Nvidia a little over a week ago, so we're seeing some activity there.
So if you wanted to trade the magnificent seven, of course, the S&P leverage products,
we have a fang plus, that includes all seven, amongst three other stocks within there
that's a two X bull, and for those that want to move away from the magnificent seven
and a heavy concentration it has, not just in the S&P, but the Nasek 100, people could
look at an equal weight Nasek 100, we're seeing a lot of interest there, non-leveraged,
more part of a diversifying, their overall launch cap exposure, then want to move away
from the heavier.
Sorry, what's the ticker on the equated Nasek?
QQ8, thank you.
QQ8.
What about the un-magnificent 493?
Well, you're getting definitely a lot more exposure with the equal weight when Apple
as the same weighting is lucid, which I believe is the 100 stock and the Nasek 100.
So certainly an equal weight approach might make sense to a lot of your listeners if they
want to diversify outside that magnificent seven, because it's a very heavy weighting
and the Nasek.
That's getting excited.
No, this is interesting, so the equal weight Nasek 100 that you have is up 20% in
year today.
I bet that would shock people, because most people assume, well, it's just those big
stocks that are carrying the day, so other tech stocks are doing pretty well this year.
Yes, it's interesting, you guys know better than I do.
The Nasek 100 is only 60% tech.
It is a high-weighting tech, but there are other sectors in there too that are represented.
And most people associate, of course, because of the magnificent seven, that it's tech-heavy
bias, which it is.
But the equal weight, of course, you're going to have less emphasis on the tech sector,
and more emphasis on some of the other sectors.
So again, that's a little more balanced.
Now, the Nasek 100 is up 40%.
So the equal weights up about half that, but still from a diversification standpoint, I
think now more than ever, it makes sense, because you'll look at that magnificent seven.
None of those seven stocks are cheap by any measure.
You can make the case that some of them are still growing at a good rate.
So maybe they justify that multiple, but certainly multiples are high on the magnificent
seven and varying degrees.
So why not spread the risk out and have an equal weight approach?
On a relative basis, the equal weight outperformed the Nasek 100 last year, the market cap weighted
by about 800 basis points, but it was on a relative basis.
Edward, can we send people to learn more?
Sure.
You could go to our website at directionwithinx.com.
I would highly recommend our education center, particularly for leveraging inverse to learn
more about the mechanisms on how they work, whether they're appropriate for you or not,
because for the majority of your listeners, they're probably not going to be appropriate
for unless they are active traders and are staring at their screen intraday and on a daily
basis.
If you're not going to monitor it on a daily basis, these are going to be the wrong vehicles
for you.
So certainly our website, the education, that's what I'd recommend.
You know, Ed, I commend you for saying that.
I don't think there's too many asset management here that would have come on and said, said
what you just said, which is the truth?
These vehicles are not for everyone.
Obviously, that for a lot of people considering how, what can I ask, what are the assets at
direction these days?
Yeah, we're a little over 30 billion.
Totally no.
We're in the top 20 of all ETF providers in the US in terms of assets, although our assets
might fluctuate a little more than some of those other ETF sponsors that are non-leveraged.
Well, clearly there is a strong demand for professionals and sophisticated retail investors
for the stuff that you've built, so congrats to you on that.
And thank you very much for coming on.
We appreciate the time.
Not a problem.
Always a pleasure.
I'll try and get a little 7-8 ticker next time.
We got close.
Have a good week.