90 Degrees | EP #42 The Rise of Cabbie Richards: Legendary Interviews & Sports Betting Media

On this week's episode of 90 degrees, we interview a legend in the Canadian media scene. What's it like interviewing guys like Mike Tyson and Kobe Bryant? Plus, the direction sports betting content is heading and if there's anything we can do to change it. That and more on today's episode of 90 degrees. Welcome to the 90 degrees podcast where we take an inside look into the sports betting industry. I'm your host G. Stad George and I'm excited because I've got he probably won't like this word but I've got a legend in sports media with me and he's been so kind to join me in studio for my first ever in studio interview. Kaby, thanks for joining me. We clap for ourselves, George. Okay, thank you for being here. Thank you for the invitation and it's wonderful to be here. Kaby, I got to ask before you, before we get into it, your name is Cabral but where does Kaby come from? Okay, so I'm great question. My dad, when I was five, he started calling me Kaby. So Cabral is my name and it wasn't like a nickname that I had carried through school. There was one guy in high school called me Kaby but everybody just called me either KAB or Richards and then when I got to the score, everybody had a nickname. It was like hockey nicknames. Steve Cooley, this was Cooley and now I'm thinking like, did McAlifada and McAlif was just McAlif? Sid was just Sid. Verk was Verk and now, oh no. I guess there are some like editors and other producers. Gleini, this guy going to Glenn McDonnell was Gleini. So Cabral was just harder for people to say. So I just went to Kaby and that became like my professional moniker with this Kaby. And there have been times where people actually thought I was a cab driver. I'm like, yeah, I can get you to where you need to go. I just need five stars on the rating. Sure. Yeah, I'm not in purgatory on this driving app. Before you get into media, like you big sports fan? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which sports are your favorite growing up? Growing up was baseball just because of the blue jays. I'm a lot older than you so the blue jays had a nice run in the 80s and 85. They lose to the royals. I think we have three one in the ALCS. And then there was a resurgence obviously in the 90s and that's when I was in high school. And I was more of a Cleveland fan than I was a Toronto Blue Jays fan because I loved Albert Bell and I loved Kenny Lofton. Again, I'm dating myself. No, no, no. I think Jim Tomey. Yeah. Oral, oral, her shadow. Oral, her shadow. I love the Cleveland Indians too. They went to the work series in 95 and 97. And anyway, but like now, I think it's probably basketball, one football, one A hockey then baseball or sometimes it's baseball then hockey. And I'm not that big of a soccer guy. Okay. But I'm like learning. I follow the premiership a little bit, champs lead, a little bit. I'm really just like like many people. I'm just consuming highlights on my phone. So when Messi has scored in every freaking game for hitter Miami or Oral, no, it's like, okay, I see you, Messi. I see what you're doing over there. I'm just going to score two in this in this Saudi league. And he wants to, you know, it's, I love how I love watching greatness. And we've been, you know, you're alive at any time in, you know, the last 40 or 50 years, you've seen greatness in your era. And like those two guys are phenomenal. They're icons in their sport. But I need to, I need to like, Messi is in the MLS. So I really have no excuse not to tap, not to start following MLS a little more. I did one TFC had a nice, excuse me, had a nice run in like the Josie Altedore era. Yeah. And they want, they want MLS Cup in 17, I think. I think it was. They had the rematch against Seattle. Yeah, that's right. Because they lost the first one in 1-0 and then they won the second one, 2-0, maybe or 2-1. But yeah, I, so I need to follow them. What are yours? Love football. Yeah, okay. And I'm going to like NFL or college. NFL, yeah, okay. So I love all sports. But if you said to me, you got two choices. A button one, football exists and every other sport disappears. Or button two, every other sport lives, but football disappears. It wouldn't even, I wouldn't even blink twice. It's just a button one. Buy to everybody else. Football is king. I love it. Now, can you watch spring football, though? Like, have you given the XFL a change? I love the XFL. Now, yeah, I'm a wrestling fan. So I'm like, I almost feel obligated to support the XFL. Got it. I don't like USFL. I don't love college. And part of that is because that of college football. No, I watch it, but I don't love it like I love NFL. Like the NFL, there's not a day that goes by where I don't think about football. Not a day. 365 years. Wow. I'm always thinking football. Wow, that's your, that's your thing, man. Yeah, wow, that's, that's, I don't think you've ever heard anybody say that before, but salute to you. I mean, other than guys, actually guys in the NFL probably don't think about football every single day. Football's my soul mate. That's that's that's so close. That's your girl. Okay, I got you. Okay, did you know you wanted to get into sports when we were younger? No, I wanted to be, well, Smith. I want to be Denzel Washington. And I obviously do not have the talent of those two legendary actors. So they're like, I didn't even know you could get on TV, even though I was watching TV, but there was like no route for me to be on television or to work in media, didn't even know what media was and it wasn't until high school, there was, there was a guidance counselor. Now, I'm trying to remember if it was like a classmate of mine or a guidance counselor that said, you should think about Ryerson, Ryerson's TV program. And I didn't, I don't even know if Ryerson was even on my radar. My parents went to U of T, both of them. And that's where they met. I didn't even know Ryerson existed. I mean, I lived at the time. I lived in Cambridge, Ontario. So a bunch of my peers were going to Western, going to Guelph, they're going to Waterloo, and they're going to Laurier, like the schools in that area. But I'm from Toronto. I moved to Cambridge when I was 12. And even in Toronto, it was just like U of T, York. Those are the two schools. Anyway, so when I got to Ryerson, then I noticed like, oh, there is a path to be on television. And I got lucky. There was a guy at school who one day saw myself and Adnan Burke and the whole was like, giving your resumes. I'm working in this place called headline sports and they need interns. And I was like, you know what? I'm in a television program. I should probably get an internship. Yeah. And then luckily, I did. And then that was the beginning of my career. Did you end up finishing school? I did not. No, I did not. I only did three years. And then I was like, I'm going to go try to be an actor. And it was such a bad decision. Because I was doing, I probably did maybe 12 commercials, like a couple Tim Hortons. And I'm always eating the food in the commercials. And when you're, when you're shooting the commercials, they're like, all right, you don't have to eat the whole thing. It takes like 20, 30 takes. Yeah, but I'm like, I'm hungry. And like, I always get like the bowl of chili. I got a bowl of chili, like a, you know, a turkey sandwich. And I'm eating the freaking thing. And they're like, you can just, it's so wasteful. You take one bite and there's literally a bucket beside you. You could spit out the thing and throw it in the bucket. But I'm like, I'm not going to waste. Listen, I'm from Caribbean. Like my parents are immigrants. Yeah. We're not wasting anything. No, we don't do that. No, we don't. So anyway, so I was doing some commercials. And I had like small parts in TV movies and random movie of the weeks that would shoot in Toronto to like, to be like the fake Chicago or fake New York. Yeah, yeah. When I started Kaby on the Street, it was my pursuit of doing something creative on a regular basis, a regular cadence. So once a week, these, these streeters segments would appear on the score. And that's where all my creative energy was going to. While I was auditioning, you get a few pages of dialogue. You got to remember for tomorrow at 245. I'm just like, oh my god, it's auditioning is the worst. And like memorizing, you know, two pages isn't too bad. Sometimes you get like six pages of dialogue. And you have to remember the other person's dialogue. Yeah. Just so you can follow along. I remember here in the story where Sam Jackson was a table read, Quinn Tarantino is doing a table read for Pulp Fiction. And actually, then I, sorry, I heard the story from a guy named Robert Forster, who was in the movie Jackie Brown. So after Pulp Fiction and Sam Jackson's like a bail response man. And I can't remember what Robert Forster's role was in the movie. But anyway, Robert Forster told me about Sam Jackson. He said, Sam Jackson would know your dialogue better than you because he could, he could like quote your dialogue for you in a scene even like when you're rehearsing or even if you forget a line, he knew your dialogue. So, and that was in 97. I met Robert Forster in 98. He was shooting a movie here in Tarantino and a friend of mine taking you just go run lines with this actor. And he told me that story. I was like, oh my god. So I'm like, okay, oh, you know, Sam Jackson's like this incredible actor. Like I want to like replicate his level of preparation. Yeah. I didn't, I didn't do very well. Obviously, because I'm, you know, I'm just like some adult child interview bugging athletes and stuff and not an accomplished actor who would currently be on strike right now. But either way, the acting thing didn't work out. But the TV thing did. I'm very fortunate. I actually think you're better off because even if the money isn't the same as being it's definitely not the same level. You know what, you created your own lane though. Thank you, bro. Streeters, I'm going to, I'm going to confess to me because my first gig in media was for for News Talk 1010. And they had a segment where they'd have a doctor on. And I had to ask people, give me a medical question for the doctor, but I was too shy. So I would get friends and family to... I've done that before too. Okay, because I could never do streeters. I was just too shy to go up to a group of people and say, hey, I work for a radio station, I need to record. Oh, it's not easy, bro. Like just approaching strangers in general, then asking for their time. And then like, I'm a bigger guy. So like, I was kind of going with a smile. So I'm not like threatening at all. Yeah. And there's so much rejection, bro. I mean, first as an actor, well, not first in high school with girls, there's a ton of rejection. I think I batted at a 48 in high school. And then in doing street... And then in auditioning, they say you get one role for every 20 auditions. That is like 19 for 20 failures. Imagine you're a baseball player. I guess that's, I think that's batting 50. And that's batting bat, yeah. Like, well below the Mendoza line. Or actually, we should update the Mendoza line. Cause isn't like, I think Kyle Schwarber's batting like 190, 180 something. I never just in general are all done now. Yeah, like Peter Lonzo, like guys are batting sub 200. Yeah. Bro, you're making $17 million a year. Like, homie, get in the cage. Watch some phone. Yeah. Listen, I'm saying that in just because pictures are out here. Those, those Chapman's I hear thrown 102. Yeah, they all, like I remember when Chapman was the first guy to throw that heat. Yeah. And now it's every, but every team has two relievers that throw 100 plus that is insane. And then like, like some guys, they're slide or Gossmann's got his, not a slider. Gossmann's is a splitter and not too many guys. They'll splitter him and Otony, they'll split it. Like the movement has just grown. So anyway, the, where's like, oh, yeah, streeters. Notty, so we would go out for like a couple of hours to try to get like 10, 8 to 10 really like great soundbites. And then the, you know, the final video might be three minutes or something like that. So you're most of the crap is like left on the editing floor, but it's a hard man. And I was doing streeters in 2001. So it was like myself, my main beam, Brian Ryan, my camera guy, my main D joined like six months later. And then we would just go to like, I would go to a lot of school. So Humber, Ryerson, York, U of T, just trying to find a people my own age that I felt like comfortable talking to. And then also the score's audience was like super young at the time. It was like just basically college kids and young professionals. Because it was basically people that loved fantasy and just die hard sports fans. Because we had like so many stats and gambling and gambling too. Yeah, I guess back, when did bet three, six, five? Oh, it wasn't legally gambling. Oh, yeah, it was a great mark. Yeah, it's a great mark. But bet three, six, five, I remember getting an account in God, like the mid 2000s. When they were Bowman's. No, I think it was still brand, it's bet three, six, five. They just turned, because I think bet three, six, five, originally was Bowman's. Oh, okay. Yeah, but before I, before my, actually, the score, you know what's why you say it like that? Like we were every, at the score in my Cal, Tim McAlphin, who's one of my colleagues. I also, a colleague at sports event. But we've said many times, like in conversations where we're just having wings somewhere, that like we'll never replicate the work culture of the score. Because there were like 200 people, I think, worked for the network, but, you know, the producers, editors on air. There was like maybe a hundred of us. Everybody was between like 20 and 30. And we were in so many pools. Yeah. And we used to talk so much to each other. Like real vile, like just, cancelable, friggin' dialogue to each other's basis. And then we were play fight, like it was, it was basically the extension of the locker room. But then we were like a sports network. And it was awesome. It was awesome, but yeah, gambling for sure. There, only a few guys had like bookies at the time. But we were mostly into fantasy in, you know, that the 2000s. Oh, yeah, one or two guys had actual bookies. And then when three, six, five came around, I think a few guys got a count. Hey, wanted to talk to you about Pinnacle. Pinnacle is the world's sharpest sports book. Find out what professional betters have known for decades. Pinnacle is where the best betters play. Everyday competitive odds, Bet smart, bet pinnacle. Must be 19 plus an Ontario, not available in the US. Please play responsibly. Now back to the rest of the show. Yeah, it was a game changer. When's the first time you get off the street and you go, here's an athlete to interview. Do you remember who your first athlete interview was? Yes, it was. I was doing cabin industry was in 2002. I believe it was Wade B. Lack. Oh, yeah, the rest is so. I was doing a bit about pre-game meals. Like it was so, like this was, I wasn't doing open heart surgery. And like, it was just a real basic ish. Wade B. Lack was in it, Darcy Tucker, on the Raptors, Moped, Jerome Williams. And I think I had like, the Charlotte Hornets were in town. So I got like Baron Davis and Baron Davis said, he eats pork and you eat pork, bro. It's a, there's a weird thing with, not weird, but like some, some people in like, some black people don't eat pork. Yeah, some people do, depending on where you're from in the United States. And but in the Caribbean, it's pork is not really a thing. But anyway, I think it was, Wade B. Lack, I believe it was the first. And that was like, April of 2002. And then Vince Carter did a charity basketball game. This is at the height of Vince Carter, like fandom in 2002. And he had like a bunch of his Carolina team, like Antoine Jameson came and a few other like high flyers. Not that Jameson was a high flyer, but they came, he was during Carabana weekend. It sold out the Air Canada Center. And I did some interviews there. And it like, here, I always want to try to make the athletes laugh. And that was like how I felt like I got a W in the interview. And the guys were playfuls of summertime. So I got some great feedback and some great, clips. And that just boosted my confidence. And the big, the first big one for me was interviewed Pedro Martinez in 2003. And Pedro, he was with Boston. And his run from like 90, what, 99 to 03 was just electric. I have a friend who believes, and I kind of don't want to argue with him, that was the best run a picture has ever had. Pedro's peak, even though it may not have lasted as long as the other greats, he was unhittable, like sub two ERA, 15, 16 Ks in a game. He was just a monster. Yeah, you know what? Pedro's peak, now again, I'm dating myself here. Bob Gibson's peak and Sandy Cofax's peak are like, actually, you know, even Clemens had, Clemens had like, yeah, I love, he's my favorite. I love Rush Clemens. Yeah, why use a Blue J2? And I don't. Even two side youngs with a J2 years. I know, 20 Ks, like, I loved everything about Roger. And I think he won, I think he won a side young in 86. So he was working the year, maybe he won a side or maybe he wasn't MVP, but I mean, he was incredible too. But yeah, those three Gibson, Cofax, Pedro, like they had four year runs. Bob Gibson had a, he had, they had to lower the mounts for this guy. The mountain used to be 12 inches. They lowered it to six, because this mother bleeper was so dominant. And this is an error word. Like, you don't smile at the opponent. Let's know, fraterizing with the opponent. Like, you guys hate each other. And, you know, he was with the St. Louis Cardinals. I think he had a, I want to say he had a ER, like 180, 168, once. It was, I know this is, I'm totally on the tangent here, but this is just stats thing. I like telling this story. There was a Donaldson, so Josh Donaldson and I were in the Jays Clubhouse one afternoon. Just him and I was sitting in his locker and I'm on my phone. And we're going through Barry Bond's stats. Oh, there's still. We are giggling, but we're both adults. And we're just going through like 98, 99, 2000, like looking at his on base. Yeah, this is like 590, 600. It's insane. Every 10 at bats, he would be on base six times at a 10. That one season, I think it was 2004 or 2001 or 2004. It was just, and Donaldson was an MVP. Like, you won an MVP when 15, I believe, not 16. But I don't think we compared his numbers to bonds, but we were just like, this guy was on. I think he's like, Shohei needs a few more MVP's, in my mind, to pass bonds as like the greatest baseball player ever. I know, obviously, no, Barry Bond's is not a pitcher. We want a bunch of gold gloves and left field, but like his numbers are just staggering, dude. And like, he had like 200, imagine being walked 100 times on purpose. I know. On purpose, they walked him with bases loaded and brought a run in, because they were protecting a two run lead, and they didn't want him hitting. You know, we were briefly speaking about Michael and LeBron before we started this. Steven, Steve and he Smith has this quote. He's like, I think you said LeBron was great, but everybody feared Michael. Everybody feared Barry Bond. Oh, yeah. And like, from Greg Maddox, who's a wonderful storyteller, and he's got some bonds. Everybody has like a bond story, not everybody, but the pitchers of that era. He's like, how are you going to this guy? He's waiting for one pitch, the entire rap that is like, I'm waiting for a fastball. Like, I know it's either inside or outside. I'm going to cover the play, because I'm amazing. And I'm just waiting for the, I have the discipline to wait for the one pitch. If I'm not getting it, I'm going to walk. I'm going to go to first base. And then I might steal, because he got like 500 soul bases in his career. Anyway, I know there's a tangent. Salute to Josh Donaldson. I miss him so much. I told him when he went to sit, well, you sound with the Yankees. I'm like, bro, I really like you. I just can't support you right now, because he's like, I get it. I love that. You know, you talk about being feared. I remember Roger in that era with Barry, and not wanting to walk Barry. Because Roger also had Bake a Hone. He's like, yeah, I'm Roger. I don't, you got a cater to what I do. I don't cater to how good you are. So when I wonder what those head-to-head stats are, I wonder how many times they would have even faced each other. Because interleague play wasn't, I mean, I guess maybe Roger in Houston, he had that one or two seasons invite, probably faced him there with us. And you think he still, did he want to sign on with the Astros? I think he won. Four or five of them, he won the World Series with the Astros. Did he? I think, oh four. Oh four, they won the World Series, I believe. Hold on, we're not using Google. Okay, hold on. Hold on. 2002 was Anaheim. 2003 was the Miami, our Florida, Marlins. 2004 was, and in 2005 was Chicago. That was 2004. I'm pretty sure the Astros and they signed them maybe 20% through the season. They just signed them on, White Sox won it in 2004. When did the Astros ever win? Or am I completely baronstein bearing this moment right now? Then who won in 2005? We can't use Google, bro. We have to use our brains. Produced Jason is using Google. That's a loophole, right? Did they win? It was the White Sox in 2005. Okay, White Sox 2004. 2004 of White Sox. Oh, of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course. Oh my gosh, the greatest comeback in the history of the sport down three enough. I went to that ALCS, and it was awesome. I did some real flagrant-ish. I had a friend who was like, I find that guy in Boston. And I saw games three, four, and five. Game five, Poppy, I think he singles to right field or doubles to right field. And that brings in the scoring, the winning run. And then so Boston's back in the series three, two. Man, we were in a suite. I was throwing empty bottles, empty cans of beer down to like the, like I was just real flagrant. Like I deserve a punch in the face for that beer. At some point in the future, I hope I don't get it, but I deserve it. Next time somebody does some of you, like you know what, that's karma. It came back 20 years later. You know, you interview different athletes. And I find in an interview, you've got to find some rapport somewhere fast. Otherwise, the interview can go bad. It's not easy. And you probably know this as an interviewer. So people who have the same co-host and they can chat it up, there's comfort there. Whereas I've got a new dance partner every episode. And I've got to learn what their vibe is. I got to match it and got to make an interview that they haven't done 20 times over. Because you get interviewed so many times, eventually the questions will repeat themselves. Do you ever have an interview that just went, you know what, I didn't have chemistry with this guy. It didn't go well. Yes, yes. You don't have to name the name. I'll try to think what, no, like the interview was just like terrible. Maybe something that didn't make air or maybe it didn't make air. And you had to edit it your best. We can come back to that. If you don't have one off the top of your head, let's revisit, I think something will jog your memory. You do creative stuff, right? Thank you. You don't just do, hey, here's five questions. I was the season going, I was like, right? Correct. And I listened to Mr. Beast on a podcast and he spoke about his process. They actually sit there, whiteboard it, brain storm. A bunch of people come up with ideas. And then they come up with the theme idea of what episodes they're going to do. Because you're a creative like that, right? You're an interviewer. You're a creative like that, right? Your interview is not an interview. It's an experience. It's an ex-man. Thanks. What was your process? When do you start getting creative like, because you've done some crazy shit over the years, how do you formulate your ideas? I used to go to this fictional place called The Lab. And I would like, just pen and paper write down ideas. My longtime collaborator, Dave Cricks, we would have a phone call. And then we would just start throwing things back and forth. And then, OK, there's the germination. There's a seed there. And then we would build on random things. And I always try to humanize athletes. So whatever's in the culture, whatever's in the zeitgeist, whether it's like phones or movies or food or some event, I would try to use that as a foundation. And I always, there were three things we considered when I was at TSN was, what is the athlete willing to do? What can we get away with? And how much time do we have? Some variation of those three things. So a lot of it was just like, I would go off, and Dave would go off, or we would try to come up with some stuff on our own. And then we would collaborate with a phone. It was always a phone call. And then, Dave would usually have funnier ideas and me and like, oh, this is good, this is good. And then I really love props in my interviews. I like us doing some things. And then sometimes I don't bring props, and maybe to the detriment of the interview. And sometimes I do, but generally I try to bring some props just so we have something to interact with. And that's how it goes. And it's just, I don't usually watch interviews the other that the athlete has done before, unless it's the first time I'm interviewing them. And it's like, if the person is European or if the person is like South American, like, how's their English? Yeah. And I need to know that. And just like, how comfortable they're speaking, how comfortable are they speaking a second language? If I had to do an interview in French, it'd be a disaster. I would need an interpreter. Yeah. Because I mean, we learned French in elementary school, but can I say anything more in Poujalella toilet? No. I forgot everything. The year after it became stop being mandatory to take friends, everything went out the head. I didn't capture anything. I wish I remembered. Easiest way to improve as a sports better is use multiple sports books and always get the best odds. We recommend using an odds comparison tool like bet stamp. Bet stamp compares odds across every sports book for games, futures, and player props. Save time and money by clicking bet stamp before you bet. Download the app today. If you're looking to sign up to a new sports book account, please check out the offers available at betstamp.app, forward slash circles off, or hit the link in the description. If you sign up through this page and help support the show, now back to the episode. It's like I wish, anyway. So that's like my process. So I have, you know, where I'm not sure when this will be posted, but we're coming up onto the, like the MLB playoff run. Teams trying to qualify for the playoffs. So there's some players that I want to interview in like the ALS, like Houston and Texas. Houston and Texas. So like now I'm like, okay, I don't, I've never in like Marcus Simeon or Kyle Tucker or Nathaniel Lowe. Never met, I've like seen these guys, but I've never met them. So that now I'm like, okay, what can I? Okay, Texas, Texas, my starting point, everything's bigger in Texas. I'm like, okay, wait, they probably just spoken about that. I'm not going to do country music. My brain is like, all right, how do they, I would love to interview, I wish Jordan Avra has spoke English, like as his first language, because that guy's amazing. And Jose Altuve is, he actually is comfortable speaking in English. So like, what would I do with him? Okay, short, I don't want to bring up his height unless it's the size of his heart. Oh, is there something in the size of that? Is there something about it? Is there something like, you know, that meme where like there's an x-ray of a person's, with a dog in the... Yeah, with their ribs, and you see the, like, okay, is there the dog? Maybe that's the starting point there? What kind of dog is he? What kind of dog is he thinking? So it's stupid-ish like that. That's where it kind of, that's where it kind of starts. I have to interview John Daley, not I have to. I will be interviewing him in a couple of days. And John Daley, like, I think I'm gonna start the interview with, when did you fully embrace mall senta-sheet as you are, as you are like the whole essence, your whole vibe? Yeah. And hopefully he smiles like you just did. And I just, I want to make, as you say, I want to make the interview an experience because I want to go back, like, I'd like to re-interview you if it goes well. Or just have it be memorable on that day, like, oh, I did not expect that. And I, one time I interviewed Kevin Love. This was, guy, this is 10 years ago. And I asked him to draw a portrait of himself. And this is just like regular media availability. He was on the Minnesota Telemerals at the time. So I had a photo of him and like a blank canvas and was sharpie. And like halfway through, he's drawing his face and goes, when I woke up this morning, I did not think I would be doing this, did I? Yeah, yeah. That was such a, like, a victory for me. Because yeah, you're right. I was like, I want this to be interesting or unique for you. So I hope you enjoyed it. You know, hockey players are often like, they're considered one of the roughest interviews because they're like cliche, a thorn, robots. I remember two interviews you did. One with Stamcoast and you're literally blindfolded. Thanks, man. And he's shooting pucks at it and you're trying to stop him. Or you, I think you were speaking with the Oilers and you gave him, well, here's your to-do list. I want you on a whiteboard, right? Oh, thanks. Because there isn't a hockey interview that could be as dollas can be and you made a memorable moment. Thanks, man. You interview Mike Tyson and Mike Tyson, I love everything about him, like his whole aura. And the interview can either go really well or really bad because if Mike doesn't want to play with you that day, you had him putting Vaseline on your face, right? Yeah, yeah. The concept of going viral. Now it's everybody attrised to attain it in their interviews and I feel it's almost forced. It wasn't a concept that we knew about 15, 20 years ago when you started doing these interviews. What was your thought process? You're like, I need to have a moment that is entertaining, that captures some sort of fun. Were you trying to go viral? What, that thinking didn't exist back then because YouTube as a platform, I think, I want to say it was established at 0405. But people didn't really start adopting it to 0506. And when we were at the school, we weren't allowed to put our clips on YouTube. But my clips would have been perfect for YouTube. These are four, five minute videos of me being a dumbass with hockey players, baseball, basketball, et cetera. So the concept of virality, yeah, it didn't exist in the culture at that time. And even in the, as far as like planning what we would do, there wasn't like the final like, okay, this is the crescendo of the interview. I didn't have anything that premeditated. I'd have like five questions and I would allow myself a little bit of space to kind of dance, to freestyle based on what answers I would get. Now there were like the best segment I ever did was this hockey knobs one in salute to Steve Ludzig who gave us the idea. I was asking players what the heavy innuendo, how do you tape your stick? How do you wrap your knob? And so just that question like, okay, I know we're going to get some great responses. And it wasn't until like guys would click in. They're like, oh, this is what you're asking. That moment was like, it's like the best in that particular video. But now I didn't really have like one, sorry. It wasn't that often where I would have like one great closing question or like one question in there. They're like, I know this is going to be the banger. Every once in a while would happen like, how do you tape your stick? One time I gave Cobb pajamas and I'm like for our sleepover and I knew like the reveal of the pajamas would be pretty special because I found like these basic plaid and Cobb obviously didn't put them on and he wouldn't put them on because Cobb was like a serious guy. Although he'd let me in, he was a serious guy. But just the visual of me handing him plaid pajamas I knew would be like a funny visual. Specifically for Cobb Bryant, who was just like a no nonsense guy. Although he did like smile or whatever. I think I cut him a key for my house too. I don't, he never came to my house. But were you intimidated the first time that? Mark Obia, yeah. It was like a, we're December 05. It was a snow storm in Toronto the night before. So we get to the Dave, myself, camera guy. There's one other, there's like a camera guy for Raptors TV. No other media was there. The Leafs who played the night before in Toronto was obviously like a Leafs media market. So just like after practice, I just walked off the coat. And I'm like, okay, here we go. And he had like this big like North Face, Canada Goose jacket on. And he just, he just looked like, like he didn't want to be bothered but I'm like, I need to go speak to this. Yeah. He's only here once. Like there's only playing Toronto once and then Toronto goes playing in LA. And then I asked him about bandwagon fans. And like, what does he think about bandwagon fans? And I had a pad of paper and a sharpener wanted him to draw what a bandwagon looked like. He didn't, he didn't try because I suck at art. Like I can, well here's later Colby, you did do a short documentary. I know, I know you didn't draw the animation but there's drawings is in there somewhere. But yeah, Colby was, and it wasn't until the end when I said, hey, next song in LA, like I could take a taxi there but can I stay in your guest house? And that was the start. He's like, my guest house. Yeah, can I stay at Casa de Bryant? He's like, all right man, you can stay in my guest house. And then later that day, I bugged him about something else about posters on his wall or whatever and then he asked him for his address. And then the next time I saw him, I asked him for his phone number. And then the next time I saw him, like, hey, I went to that address, it wasn't, so can I get a new one? Did he tell you to go to Compton or is that another interview? Yeah. So that like the fifth time he gave me an address and I went, it was in Compton. I was like, Compton is where you live? Yeah. Because Mimi in Compton and then it was a church that he, I think he just made up the address. We ain't going, it is a church. I'm like, okay, yeah, I guess this would make sense for me to like be here on a Sunday morning, we went to Sunday morning too. COVID was like, maybe at 1 a.m. I'm like, 1 a.m. in Compton? No, but I'll meet you at 11 a.m. in Compton because again, she was just sleeping. Sure, sure. I don't want to do this to you but you brought Colby up. You're very known to have a lot of chemistry with Colby. I remember specifically where I was the day I heard the news that he passed away. I didn't think it was real. Like I had to verify this three. It just didn't feel like Colby was ever going to leave us and so suddenly, do you remember where you were and how did you take the news? I got a call from a producer at, I was working for Bleacher Report at the time and I was in Las Vegas and he's like, how did you see the news? I'm like, no. And it was early because go on TMZ, go on TMZ and I see it. And I kept refreshing the page, bro. Like for an hour, like this can't be real. This can't be real. Hell in copter. It just all sounded so out of nowhere. Yeah. But TMZ had the story so I knew it was legit because TMZ doesn't miss very often. TMZ is batting like 991 or something crazy like that. So yeah, that's where I was. And then I was fortunate enough, like a month later, I went to his service and it was a celebration of Colby. It was an amazing, stable center. I'm sitting across from you to my left. I know this is an audio medium, but I'm looking in the eyes of like Tim Duncan and Tony Parker and Greg Popovich and Demarda Rosen was over there. To my right, there's Jay-Z, there's Beyonce, there's Michael across from me. So like the center of the floor was, it was like a square and there was like a podium where people were eulogizing cobe across from me. It was like Shaquille O'Neill, Kenny Charles. Like it was, I mean, and like Alicia Keys performed, no, it was Beyonce opened Christina Aguilaris, sung like Moonlight Sonata, I believe, or not Ave Maria. I believe memory searching correctly, Alicia Keys saying, it was, it was just amazing. But like so many people wanted to come in and pay respect and be there to honor, and you know the cool thing about George? At the beginning of the service, there were people who like, like because Beyonce opens it, there are people who like had their phones out and then after like 10, 15 seconds, the phones went away because I was looking up into the, like into the upper deck and just looking around, just kind of living in the moment. But then everybody just lived in that moment. There were no phones, bro. Like people were there absorbing the energy, showing love, expressing love for Cove and we were just all present and it was awesome. It was awesome. I mean, as awesome as something like that could be. I remember Shaq speech and there's an Emmy in this mother effort when he talked about the guys were complaining Covey wasn't passing the ball through. I'm just like, I remember that. I'm like, what a way to send somebody off a celebration. You like to give gifts to people, right? I remember you had Aaron Rodgers on and you're giving him like portraits of him in the most famous moments in history where you photoshopped him in. So when you agreed to do this and you said, I'm gonna come in person and we'll do this. I got you something. Oh wow, I said I have to. Like if Cabbie gets gifts for everybody, I do as well. And because you had a great relationship with Covey, I got you a Kobe Bryant rookie card. Oh wow, man, this is phenomenal, bro. Thank you. That's a thank you for like all. This is expensive, man. Like I don't know what the budget is on the show, but you just blew the budget on this one basketball card. Wow, I've never seen this card before. It's beautiful. I hope you enjoy it. Thank you, man. It's great and another thing, George. I know. Thank you. I wanted 20 years from now when you've forgotten my name and you look at your Kobe Bryant card. You're like, I remember that fellow. He interviewed me once and I got that card from him. Now, I don't remember how to pronounce his last name, but I remember his name as George. Yeah. See for the non-sevalidates. It's, how do you say it again? Self-feedy. Self-feedy. Geez, this is very kind of you. Thank you, man. You're welcome. When I watched you first time, I have a word called sauce. Okay. No one has the sauce, right? You know who that is for me now is Kayla Presley. Yeah, he's killing it. Every killing it, of course. Every interview he does is cis and he does a similar path to you where it's, this isn't a regular interview. We're going to create a wacky moment that people will remember. It's, and it's something you've never done with anybody else before. So like, that's kind of what I remember when I watched your stuff. You did, you had a short stint, doing stuff outside of sports media. Who's, who's the, your favorite non-athlete that you ever interviewed? Or one that stands out to you? You said you wanted to be like, Will Smith was, maybe Will Smith. Well, probably Will Ferrell. Will Ferrell. I got, I interviewed him in a bathroom once at the MGM hotel and that was pretty memorable that he came in with this like grotesque fur coat that was, he probably bought at, you know, some thrift shop in LA. He had these glasses that folded up and he had this like big fedora and he said, the only place he would do the interview was in the bathroom and we're like, let's go, I signal my cameraman like we're going and it was like a one-seater. Toilet, me, Will Ferrell, my producer, Dave and a camera guy, four adult men in a bathroom. No cocaine. That's gonna save you. I'm gonna have it sometimes. That's like my sauce. Yeah, he was phenomenal. I've interviewed Will I think two other times and he's just magnificent. Like he actually, Hugh Jackman is also a great interview because he gets all the rocks pretty dope too. I've been fortunate. I mean, I've interviewed Drake a couple of times, only a couple of times and Drake is really hard to get to even though we're in Toronto. This guy is like always on his plane going somewhere on planet Earth and I got Drake to laugh a few times and that was like very rewarding for me because Drake has a really gregarious laugh. So those are some of the, I guess Will's probably at the top will Ferrell but I've been fortunate to interview some other dudes like I sung terribly with Kevin Hart once. The ones that get it, right? They understand what you're trying to accomplish and they play with you, right? They play. One of my, I'm sorry to cut you off there. I did this bit where I got in a lot of trouble for it but I snuck in, like snuck in. I brought this like a Casio keyboard and it was the junket for the Hangover 3. So it's Bradley Cooper, Ed Helms and Zach Galfan I could sing across from me. You get four minutes in these junkets. They're really, they're pressure cooker interview settings and you talk about like trying to establish a rapport with someone you have like 15 seconds like how are you doing, where are you from? Like, and then they're gonna get the same frigging and 10 questions the whole day while they're, while they're a bunch of reporters are cycling through like a car wash. So when I brought them, I brought them Mullet Wigs which they all wore and then at the end, I said, hey, at the end of the Hangover, you just improv a memorable song. Hoping you can improv a memorable song for this interview. I go, and my heart is beating out of my chest and I'm like, I know I'm gonna get in shit for this but whatever, this is like my only, my only back. Bring out the keyboard. I didn't really even test it. I put on Ed's lap. Zach leans over, hits the power button, turns up the volume, Ed starts playing and then Zach or Bradley Cooper is like stabilizes it because it's just on his, so then he improvs a song and then it was like, Zach Alphmanac has helped that moment because he was just so helpful in actually, it's like trying to get this thing to work and it worked and then later I got in shit. Like the Warner Brothers publicist like, you gotta tell us if you're bringing it to, like this, you weren't clear to do that. You know, you gotta tell us when, and those guys, I hope that that was the most memorable interview for them because they're totally unexpected, but I got in a lot of shit for them. Yeah, publicists always like, here's the time, you gotta hit your ins and your outs and they're very strict. Galaphanac has that two ferns so he has that same concept, right? When you were doing this stuff, this wasn't a thing like the non-interview interview where it was like an entertainment, it was a bit and that's why when I say, you trailblazed your own lane, right? This wasn't, not a lot of people were doing this. Did you have someone that you look up to as a broadcaster? I know, I love Joe Rogan's podcasts because it's just two guys having a conversation for three hours and they come off very well. When you're building your chops as a broadcaster, who are you looking up to? I think subconsciously I was maybe a modra shot when I was 25, I hosted a show called NBAXL. It was like an NBA magazine show and I think like a modra shot who hosted NBA Inside Stuff for a long time and it was very close with Michael Jordan had like unbelievable access. I think they're still very, very close. He hosted that show for like a decade so I would see it on Saturday afternoons. So that probably informed some of my traditional hosty stuff but before when I was doing streeters, there was a guy named Al Shira and he was on BET, he did a segment called hits from the streets. And he would go to various black colleges in the United States and he would just interview random people in New York. Now he would make fun of people and I didn't do that in my interviews because I didn't think it was, I don't know, maybe it was like the Canadian thing or just like, no, you made fun of yourself, if you were making fun of anybody. Well, thank you, that's what I tried to do. And I think, so some of that DNA rubbed off, like I was fearless. Like he would go wear costumes and he just, I mean, he's in New York. Like in New York, like nobody has time for you ever. Like even celebrities can walk around anonymously in New York because nobody cares. Like you can see Seinfeld in Central Park walking and I don't think only tourists with bug Seinfeld but other New York is be like, all right, just Seinfeld is gonna keep, I have a thing to get to so I'm not gonna stop and bug this guy for a picture. So yeah, Alan and Amad Rashad probably informed some of my TV stuff. Now, you're here for a while, you're doing sports media. Yes. Opportunity comes up in Las Vegas. That's right. And you had over, first of all, like what you nervous about, like going to work and living the States. Yes. And what was the job that you started with when you got out there? So I was with TSM at the time, I got a call on my wedding day. Hey, would you like to come down in audition for the show for Bleach Report? I just heard Bleach Report and I'm like, yes. But can we talk on Monday because I'm getting married today and a lovely woman named Tara August. She's like, yeah, as well, congratulations of course. We speak on Monday, boom, I head down Wednesday to audition for a gambling show, which was gonna be done out of the season's palace hotel. This is like three weeks before the season, get the gig and away I go. And I just got married too. So it caused a little bit of friction because like, oh, we gotta move. Yeah, well, so I went to Vegas because I had like, I had like my O1 visa, but my wife who's a chiropractor and she owns a business, she stayed in Calgary while I was in Las Vegas. So I only heard, I mean, I've been to Vegas a few times, but a friend of mine, Gary Lawless, worked for the Vegas Golden Night. So he's like, you wanna stay in Somerlin? So Somerlin is like a suburb outside of, like 20, 25 minutes away from the strip. Stay in Somerlin, it's really nice and go to the strip when you need to. So that's what I did. And because I was the only Canadian on the team, I was new, I didn't know anybody. I was there to do like, I am in the States now. Like for so many Canadian broadcasters or entertainers, actually people in medicine, finance, like when you go work in the United States, it's like a validation of your talent. Cause it's like the biggest pool in the world. I'm like, okay, now you're swimming in there. So I'm like, I'm not messing around. And also it's Vegas, like it's a very slippery slope. I think I went out twice when I, like in the first season of this football show. It's a little to Kelly Stewart, who is my co-host. And she was the first person that I met who was so dialed in to gambling with like, she was doing, she had like, not spreadsheets, but she was running her own, not, not, she's running her own numbers. What are those called when you, when you do your own? Like she were like, well, I think this line, by my numbers, the line should be two and a half, but it's three and a half. Yeah, she's modeling her own models. My own models, thank you. I was like, what the, like this is like, I play fantasy football and like, I will bet maybe on the Super Bowl $10 on the coin flip, maybe 20 bucks on the Broncos to beat, you know, the Seattle Seahawks or get Molly walked by the Seattle Seahawks and Broncos beat the Cam Newton, the Panthers. Yeah. It's stuff like that, but she, there was a, it was a whole education about betting from her because then she like knew legit whales. And then there are always ideas like, oh, we should like feature a whale and she's like, these people do not want to be on camera. They do not want to have any profile. What's the real movers, the people who can like, really move lines in Vegas, they want to remain as anonymous as possible because they don't want the IRS to be like, oh, we saw you, we saw you in this little video on YouTube, like what's going to check out your W 1099 or what are it called? So we were never able to get like one of these super influential bettors like on any kind of programs. And we were, so that's that. We worked with Chad Johnson who was just awesome. Like he is, Chad was, so he flew out of Vegas like, once a month, maybe once every three weeks and stay for the weekend and just play video games. Like so, so we had our production office was in the Caesar's Palace Hotel. Our stage, we were shooting this show in the sports book at our call time was 6 a.m. 6 a.m. Pacific time. So I had to be there like 5.30 or 5.45. So I wasn't going out Saturday night. Our rehearsals on Saturday were at like 7 a.m. So I wasn't going out on Friday night. So my time in Vegas, I was like, I'm taking this seriously because I want to extend my career here. Yep. So, and then COVID hits in like March of 2020 and shuts the city down. It was, it was bizarre. Well, I think everywhere, but especially a place like Vegas. Which is a hospitality town. It's the first time I'd ever walk through a casino there are no lights on it. There are no machines, there are no sound effects, no buzzes or dings. It was just quiet. I'm like, wow, this is so weird. It felt like the movie 28 days later. In fact, some of the guys on the team, we would go for runs on the Las Vegas Boulevard because we could. There's no traffic, no cars. Every other intersection there were like two or three cruisers that were just parked there just to make sure that, you know, you weren't, I don't know, looting or whatever. So we would run on the strip like in the middle of the road. I mean, now Vegas is going to have an F1 race in November. So they're like ripping, they're redoing all the asphalt in the city, but we were, hey, we put shoes on the ground our rubber was meeting the road during the pandemic and it was so cool, super frigging hot. Like idiots, we ran at like 11.30, like the, like the hottest time of the day in Los, in the desert, 41 degrees Celsius. Like just idiots, but anyway, it was, that part was cool. There's maybe the only cool part about the pandemic. And then everything obviously, you know, we were in a remote world and it's finally, Vegas is finally back, or maybe it was back like last year. But the experience working with Bleacher Report as like the culture setters for bedding culture, I learned so much there because the two organizations that were really leading the culture and bedding culture were Barstool and Bleacher and we're mortal enemies. We're always thinking in ways to like include the community, build with the community, like form relationships with people who would spend time with us. And that was the very ethos of what I wanted to do back here when I was recruited to come home and to work for sports and building a content team and building a brand like the community is so important. It's out, it might be niche, but people are out there and they want some place to come share their parlays or share them in the misery of like missing a leg, like we always do and parlays aren't the best bets. They're fun because they offer so much promise and hope, but it's not like, it's not a great strategy as far as like, I mean, it's fun for entertainment, which most of the research we've done at sports and it's like most Canadian betters bet for entertainment, not to make a living, make money, whereas in the United States, which is a much more mature market, people bet there to make money and in England and in the UK, people that's like their primary is why they bet us to make money versus on the other side of the spectrum for Canadians, it's for entertainment, social activity, social gatherings, playoff, Super Bowl, March Madness, doing pulls, that kind of stuff. So I learned, I learned so much in the two years that I was with Bleacher and then I came home and tried to apply some of those learnings with sports net. Okay, before we talk about what you're doing at sports net, there's this big battle going on with sports betting content, right? There's the people who do it well and get a big audience are promoting parlays and no run first ining that whole sport. Yeah, no fees, squad ride culture. And then there's the educational aspect of sports betting where people are like, no, professionals don't do this. This is not how they make their money. This is actually how they make their money and sometimes that audience isn't as big. Do you believe there's room for all kinds of entertainment or do you think we're reaching a point where something's got to give because it's too skewed too far towards stuff that's suboptimal for the player and very good for the books? Well, parlays are good for the books. Very good. So yeah, there's room for both and I suppose it depends on your experience level. I see gambling as entertainment and it's, for me, I mean, the way that I make a living is running the content at sports net and I'm not out here, I would be terrible. If I was like, all right, you have a hundred bucks and you gotta make 125 by the end of the day or try to double it, like I would just be out on my ass and I often tell people like just bet with what you're comfortable losing. So if it's like a $2 sprinkle, just be okay with just $2 like you're not getting rich. It's not like a lottery ticket. I mean, you could put together a wild 14 leg parlay and I guess suppose it could be the equivalent of a lottery ticket with all kinds of long shots, but that's silly. It's fun kind of silly. So yes, there's space for both. There are, as a strategy at sports net, I said, let's go after the casuals, the novices, people who like it for entertainment because the data shows that's where most Canadians, that's where they are there in this category where they bet for entertainment. So let's go where the audience, where their tendencies are. So, but there's also to your point, educational piece. When people become a little bit more experienced, they'll probably look to that kind of thing. Sure, and look for more information to inform their bets, whether it's websites or whether it's people that they follow who give great, great picks. I mean, people should know as that the best bettors are the best of the best are winning at 60%. Like, and even 60% it feels high. It's like 57 to 60%. And those are the best. Like, so it's very, very difficult to make a living strictly on betting, unless you are part of a fund and like 20 people put in or whatever and then you make like one or two bets a day, like that's a more disciplined way to do it. And maybe you'd have some more success, but again, we're betting on humans. We're not betting on frigging computers. It's not robot wars. It's like human beings with emotion and there are referees and the different shape of the ball and the wind and the environment, like all those things are factors. And that's why we love sports. Yeah, when I come down on it, because there's some people who feel strongly one way or another on the content. And like, you're betting on probabilities of an outcome versus what the price is of that outcome or the implied price and finding the discrepancies. But I don't gatekeep content. To me, as long as you don't misrepresent yourself, tell, you know, talk about yourself as you are a winning veteran professional and misleading people with information that is suboptimal. Like Vegas Dave. Yeah, he's the big one and he does it to sell picks, right? Yeah. So that's part of it. So I don't gatekeep the content. You get an opportunity in Canada. You said sports net, an opportunity presents itself. You're the executive producer for betting content as sports net. Did you get the job before you left Vegas or did you come back to Canada and then seek out a role like that? No, I was, while I was in Vegas, there were some conversations that happened and then it was what pulled me back to Canada from Vegas because the opportunity was, you built something fresh from the ground up. You have this new title and then you can really chart the vision of what this is going to be. And I was like, that's pretty exciting. So that's what brought me back. There have been, there's been some changes in the marketplace and we're still waiting for like the Aegee, Aegee LC. Aegee Geo. Aegee Geo, Aegee LC, I think it's in Alberta. But Aegee, to decide like can entertainers, athletes, be in commercials, you know, part of the rollout strategy, I think was a miss for all of us in media. It was just like the audience really rejected the saturation of betting commercials on TV and we were responsible for that too, you know? And that I believe was, if we look back on that and like, oh, I was gonna say in five years, we're like, no, right now we're like, yeah, we should have like dialed that down a bit. So it was more of an easier transition, but you know what happened? So sports fans are like, the audience is kind of split in half. Like there are sports fans that reject gambling and then there are sports fans that have an interesting gambling or actually gambling, it's like 50-50. So our strategies at the change about like how we present betting content to the masses to like a sports audience. So we're not doing like educational pieces where, hey, this is what a parlay means. This is what plus money is. There's a little bit of like, I'll, so on Hockey 9 Can I have these little integrations where I'll have like a two minute bit in the pregame show and like a little one minute intermission hit and there are times I'll explain, well, minus 135 means you've the bet $1.35 to win a dollar. Just so that, I mean, there are people in the audience who don't know what the plus and the minus means and we use the American odds because that's just what we see in American sports. We don't do like the decimal thing. So that is like the small educational piece but generally we try to present it as like, this is great, this is information for you. We're not saying you should bet but it's information for you. Hopefully it's good information and this can inform your bets if you choose to do so and it's totally up to you. We're not like, yeah, use this code and, oh no, you know what I do say there's a code to download that so I'm not saying. We're not forcing like, all right, this promo code will give you like $25. When you sign up, we can't, we don't do any of that kind of stuff. Okay, you talked about, you know, the overlap and infusing it into the broadcast but there are some members of the audience that hate it. Yeah, of course. Do you see a role where you can properly integrate it or do you think it needs to have its own broadcast? Here's the gambling broadcast. No, it needs to be in both. It needs to be, it's not mainstream yet but it's always gonna be a part of the conversation. Just because like, it's been a part of the conversation for like, Jimmy the Greek was doing betting hits or just open, we're open about it now. We used to pretend it didn't exist. But like, there's a reason why Monday night football has 20 million viewers when it's the two worst teams in football playing and it's not that people love those teams that people have money on that game. Yeah, the Houston Texans versus the Atlanta Falcons. Like, there's a, yeah, that's on the schedule for reason. But listen, whenever we, the audience will just become used to the gambling integrations because they're seeing ads in the arenas on the board. In the, you know, maybe not in football. Maybe in the stadiums, we're not on the field obviously because there's no ads on the fields in the NFL but in basketball games, you'll see ads on some virtual on the court or whatever. You know, I think, I think Ted Leontus was the first owner and he's the owner of the Washington Capitol's, Washington Mystics, the Washington Wizards. He opened a sports book in the Capitol One Center in Washington, DC and he's another guy and this is separate but just sold like a 5% or 10% piece of like that ownership group to like the Saudi foreign investment or like a, like a, a, I believe it's a middle Eastern foreign investment fund. So like, I know that's another Pandora's box but as far as gambling goes, it's just gonna be more mainstream and ESPN bet having this deal with Penn is obviously a game-changer. Like ESPN is now an operator and they just got a $150 million infusion of Capitol for the next 10 years through Penn and that's really gonna be, you know, ESPN, the E and the ESPN is entertainment. They're gonna make a lot of content to drive people to this sports book. Okay, so here's my question with broadcast because here's where I think there's a disconnect. When you have your normal panelists talk about betting and even if they have experience betting, they may not have a particular expertise whereas if you have a show and you want a coach's perspective on something, you bring on a former coach. Otherwise, like somebody who's never coached telling you about a coach's perspective, there's a disconnect there, right? So with sports betting, it's when the reporter whose job is to report on the game is also telling you about the sports betting, as opposed to- Has that happened yet though? It happens too often where it's like, you'll watch like former NFL players talking about their betting analysis and it's in the broadcast? Yeah, like the pre-game show and stuff, not the actual like while the game is being broadcast. Putting the pre-game show. Whereas, you know, you might have a little bit more credibility or people might be more willing to listen if it's somebody who's a proven winner who understands the gambling aspect and can speak terms of how the market's moving, not just, hey, this team is better therefore bet this because that's not how sports betting works. I don't want to name names or anything and it's not that this kind of interview, but I think that's the disconnect where if you're given a coaching perspective or an ex-player's perspective, you bring on an expert in the field or someone who's done it and when you're talking about gambling, using it as a throw away, like the four commentators on the panel are also just doing, hey, bet this just because, I think that's where people are put off. You almost have, who do you think's put off by that? Two segments of the audience, the one that doesn't care about sports betting, but also the ones who want to be successful at sports betting, telling me your picks just because and you don't, and I don't know, like if there was a big coaching situation and Sean Payton fights with Nathaniel Hallsamount, basically he says, you're the reason Russell Wilson sucked. And you're discussing it on a show. Do you want a random person's perspective or do you want somebody like Rex Ryan who's been in a coaching circle to say why all the reasons why that wasn't appropriate or why he shouldn't do it? As a viewer. In that case, I wanna hear from someone on Denver or someone on the Jets, or even someone with green Bayward, Nathaniel Hackett was the, not the, he was the quarterback's coach, I think, or. Sure. To speak on, like, Hackett's, you know, I guess I also wanna coach, to be like, yeah, no, he did suck. You want, first of all, you want multiple perspectives of it, right? Sure. Or if it's just one, like, from one of those, so Denver, New York, green Bay, or to your point, yes, sure, or next coach, to speak about it. But, so, I guess, so that's one segment a year. So it's doing content as a throwaway or because we have to do it. But here, but you have to remember, George, what's the audience? Like, if you're doing an NFL pregame show that has, like, say, 20 million people that are watching a random Monday Night Football game, is that a general sports audience or is that a gambling audience? Because if it's Eagles, Chiefs, that's a sports audience because we just saw them in the freaking Super Bowl. But if it's, I don't know, let me, let me try to think, if it's Brown's Panthers and Baker Mayfield isn't on either team, then maybe it's people who just are diehard football fans like yourself who hit button A, and maybe some guy, I guess it, I guess, if you ever did a bit, right, or an interview, you as the audience, I guess, is like the bigger question. But you would never treat anything like a throwaway, right? You wouldn't do a bit just for the sake of, hey, let's just do this bit. You have to believe in it, right? And give and believe that there's some entertainment value. So, okay, that's great that you said entertainment value. So the panel, if it's like Randy Moss, Steve Young, Sam Ponder and Trent Dilfer on a pre-game show, and like, yeah, these are our player props. Like, if I'm just a casual or novice, I'm like, okay, that's the confirmation bias that I'm like, okay, I don't know if it's Alan Lazard over 59 and a half receiving yards. Like, and Randy Moss, like, yeah, I'm taking the over and I'm like, oh, it's Randy Moss. Like, this guy, he's a whole of famer. So it might be a throwaway to you, George, because you have a lot of experience, but if you're just a casual, then that could, that could be like, you know, I'm gonna ride with Randy Moss because he knows the game better than I ever will. Or if it's just for entertainment for, you know, shits and giggles, then I'm not as put off by it as you are, because we have different levels of betting experience. I'm sure I believe that you are a much more informed better than I am and you probably have a lot of success in betting, but you're a smaller frack, from your perspective, a smaller fraction of the audience. And maybe for ESPN, they're doing like calculus, like, all right, we're still speaking to a general audience because we do the calculus, not the word ESPN, that we're like, we are speaking to a general sports audience, so we don't want, we're not trying to like have, we're not trying to be super expert about it, and we want to just merge with the broadcast, but like, here's just some more information for you on these particular players, or this additional storyline, which might be interesting for you. But I, yeah, the entertainment part of like them saying, shit, I'm not put off, I as put off by it as you are. I, you know, I'm not, I don't keep content. Oh, yeah, you said you'll get it, yeah, okay. No, I'm only trying to paint the discussion that happens, and I'm not as bothered by it. You have worked in American sports betting media and now Canadian. What's the difference in markets? Canada's a very young market, obviously, we've been regulated for Ontario's been regulated for 16, 17 months. In the United States, when I was a bleacher, football, college football, MBA, college basketball, then everything else, nothing else moved. The only players, or that would move the needle, embedding was if Tiger was in a major, serrina, sometimes it was in a major, and then like a huge prize fight. Deante Wilde or Tyson Fury, like that moves the needle, you know, or if Floyd Mayweather fights, or Connor McGregor, he moved the needle. So there are very few individual athletes that got elevated to the national discussion, but it was generally football, basketball, everything else. So here, it's hockey, football, basketball, baseball, that we've seen, I wish I had my laptop with me because I could be like, yeah, 36% of the audience bets on this, and we have those insights, but that's what I remember from the most recent data set that we got. So that would be the difference. And now that ESPN, ESPN and Turner are in the hockey business, so there's, Bleacher does a little bit more hockey, a little bit more hockey content, but it's still like, it's just football, football, and then basketball, because the stars are so big, and like, people make content of, like, Steph Curry could like a Jordan Poole post, and that's a post, like, oh, yeah. You know, this, anyway, that's the error that we live in. Or Kylie Jenner is dating, now dating Bradley Beale. Oh, so Phoenix Suns, like, do you sure dating Devon Booker seven months ago? Like, that would just set the internet ablaze, or like, oh, Pete Davidson, that's at a next game with, okay, so Nick says, okay, so he's at a sporting event, who's his new girl? And it could be Doja Cat or whatever, and that's like, that's gonna be in the conversation for the next four or 12 hours or whatever, because Pete Davidson is, I mean, he's probably got a pipe, bro. Oh, this, I mean, I'm embarrassed to say this, but I've had this conversation with friends. I'm like, he's got to be holding an apple down there. Yeah, he's got Thor's hammer or something, like, all of the girls, like, all of the baddies? And you just know that's like, back room conversation, like, you gotta get with Pete to see what's up, because there's no way that he's pulling down a class, like, he's batting the same level of, like, Leo DiCaprio, like, he's knocking down some baddies. He really is, like, salute to Pete Davidson. I've never met him, but hey, salute, bro. You're doing some big things. Last question, and you've been so gracious with your time. I truly appreciate it. You know, there's the great life paradox of, like, you have a lot of energy when you're young, but you don't have a wealth of knowledge. As you get older, you have a wealth of knowledge when I, you no longer have your youth. You've been at this for 20 years, and you've learned and seen a lot. You've learned the ropes. What's something you wish you knew as a young broadcaster that you now know, that you think could have helped your career in a different way? I'll give you one as my example, just so you, like, and this just happened with, I used to believe in being the hardest worker in the building, and, you know, being so dedicated to your work, and what I learned as time went on is, you're not defined by your job or your career. You're defined by the relationships you have. You're not defined by your career. You're not defined by your career. You're not defined by your career. You're defined by the relationships you have with people in life, and don't strive for, like, career success just so you can define yourself as a person. That's been my greatest lesson learned through my work and through my life. That's wonderful. I was on the same thread. I was thinking about, like, relationships are currency. And I think about some of the relationships that I f'd up because I didn't, I was pursuing interviews or interactions with people, and I wasn't, I was like treating them like, like, interactions or treating them like, job stuff, not, like, human connections. Like, let me check in with this person as a human versus, like, yo, do you want to do an interview? And that's how, that's, I messed up a few big relationships because of that. And I learned because I made the mistakes, but yeah, relationships are currency and, like, it's hard not to take some things personal. It's hard because I also still struggle with that, but sometimes it's not what happens to you, like, people may not be as intentional about what they do to you versus what they're trying to do for themselves. I know that one's a little bit more convoluted, and I know it, it takes a, like, an example, and I don't have one that I would share with you, but relationships are currency for sure. It's one that I would lean on. So similar to yours. Great, I, I appreciate everything, man, like, I had a blast. I hope you did, too, you do so many interviews. Thank you. And 20 years from now, you're gonna remember that, that one time, that guy, George, is the reason why I have a Kobe Bryant rookie card. Thank you, man. This is very sweet. I appreciate your choice. Happy, thanks so much. That's it for me. Another edition of 90 Degrees is in the books. I want to thank my guest, the one and only, Kathy, the sponsors of this show, Pinnacle and Bed Stamp, and my producer, Jason Cooper. Thanks for listening. Give me a favor before you go. I want you to like, share, and subscribe to this content. And we'll keep putting out great episodes. We'll be back next week with another edition of 90 Degrees. Thanks for watching. I'll see you next week. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.