90 Degrees | Episode #34 Tales From A Poker Pro: Making A Deep Run In The Main Event

Hey, on this week's episode of the 90-Degrees podcast, we talk about being 12 years old and going to illegal poker games, what it's like to finish in the top 10 of the main event and getting rated by the SWAT team. That and more on today's episode of the 90-Degrees podcast. Welcome back to the 90-Degrees podcast where we give an inside look into the sports betting industry. I'm your host G-Stack George and I'm excited because they I've got Demo Keriopolis professional poker player, one of the best players that I've ever sat at a table with joining me, Demo thanks and welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. I want to talk about your introduction to poker. What drew you to it? What drew me to it? So I would have to go back to 2003 when I don't know if you guys remember, there was a hockey strike so that year was a year where poker, the poker boom essentially happened. You know the money maker won the World Series, it was on ESPN and so I was around 12 I think, 12, yeah, 12 years old and obviously that's what I would say if my introduction to poker happened playing some poker, yeah. 12 years old, when do you start playing poker for money then? Like is it very soon after? Very soon after, yeah, you know in our neighborhood where we live, back home there's a lot of gaffinia which is like underground gambling spots so I'll call it and yeah, I had, you know, older influences you can say that brought me to these places as a child. So for those that don't know, there's a lot of, we're from Toronto originally a place where Daniel Negrano aimlessly is from and there's a lot of underground like coffee shops where they serve you coffee in the front and in the back it's non-stop poker games and you've got guys who are, you know, putting up their whole Friday paycheck and gambling away the kids' university money and Demos, 12 and 13 year old kid and he is playing against guys twice and three and four times his age and he's taking their money and it was hilarious because Demos the kid walks in, he's this brilliant poker player. Did you learn a lot of valuable lessons about maybe the bad side of poker going to these shops? Well, I have to correct you. I wasn't making money at that age. When I was 12, 13 all the way up until 16, I was losing money. I just always had money in my pocket as a kid because I just, I had four older brothers, I, you know, I had a great family, the youngest, I just always had three, four, five hundred bucks in my pocket and I would go lose it. So yeah, I didn't start making money until later, like 16, I would say, I started making money. So how did you figure it out? Because a lot of people will play poker their whole lives and never figure it out. What started to click in your head? I truly believe I just had a natural, I'm naturally talented for the game. I feel like games of strategy I was always good, like, I was always in the chess club, I was always just good at every card game, you know, president, anything to do with cards and I was always a top student in math. So yeah, I just felt like for me, poker just came naturally. And then yeah, I also really loved the game. And then I think I started clicking, started, you know, making my paychecks and I was like, yeah, could do this professionally. Did you read any poker books? I know there's two books that I loved reading. One was, I think his name is Dan Henderson, like an old poker good tournament player would always go deep. And the other one I really liked was Gus Hansen wrote a book where, and it's never been done before where he detailed every single hand he was in, he was recording himself at the table and he'd walk off and give information and it was real cool insight. He ended up winning that tournament. So it was cool insight of how somebody thinks throughout a poker tournament. Did you read any books to improve your play? Were you doing any studying or was it just hours on the tables? Yeah, it was just hours on the tables for me. So I got to a point. I was playing like, I was skipping school. I was, I was playing until six seven. I was, there was time that I was playing until eight in the morning and going straight to school, like when I was two. Yeah, I was just hours and hours of, of putting the work in. I never read any books. I never did any studying. I kind of just adapted my own game and and progressed myself. And I feel like that, that's also like unique and it's helped me in my own way, for sure. Do you remember your first good payday where you had, you walked out of a poker room and you're like, man, I made some good coin today. This is like, this could be really, really lucrative long-term. Yeah, for sure. There was a time. I think I was like maybe like, I was just 16 and I went to like a bigger cash game you can say. And I think I made like 10,000. That was like a big like, whoa, like that was a lot of money for me. Like, sure. I just like instantly like tripled my bankroll, I doubled my bankroll or something and I was just, I thought I was rich. So, yeah. That was pretty cool. Have you ever been confronted by someone pissed off that they lost the hand to you? Oh, all the time. It still happens now. Yeah, people, people take this game personally. Yeah. Oh, it's happened many times and it still happens for sure. We've all heard a horror story about illegal poker rooms. I remember hearing a story of one that got robbed. I've seen some stuff. Do you have any stories of something outrageous that you saw in a poker room like that stands out to you when you think there's one of the two or three craziest things I've ever seen? Uh, but I've experienced personally in an underground. I was once out of tournament and like, it was like in woodbridge or something, it was far. I was underage and the game got rated by swatting. So, we're sitting there. I was like, I don't know, 100 people, all of a sudden we hear the fucking thing, thing, thing, thing. You know, the whole swathing comes in with smoke bombs and and thinking everyone, everyone got it like a ticket, whatever. It was obviously pretty like all of a sudden like guys are in our faces with guns. And uh, here I am like 15, 16, I don't know, forget. And they're just like, can you call someone to come pick you up? Everyone got like a ticket. I had to call my brother to come pick me up. I didn't and nothing happened to me, right? So that was the ticket. Do you remember how much it was? I think it was like like for the players, it was like like a $200, $300 ticket or something. They were just after like the people running the game, right? Or whatever. Yeah. Were you doing well in that tournament? Were you pissed off that the tournament got called when it didn't? Yeah, I was pissed off. I think I actually had some chips. And yeah, for me like back then, playing a tournament was like, I was always looking forward to that because I can never play in tournaments. I was underage. So a tournament was like, yo, it studies a tournament. It was for sure. I was definitely pissed off. Do you remember when you started grinding on a weekly basis where you're like, all right, this is it. I'm going to, this is going to be my paycheck every week. What age are you now when you're like, I got a schedule and I'm going to grind every week. So like I said, when I was like, probably 16, I started making money. I'd say 17, 18, I started pretty much having a schedule. I had like my starting games. I would go to consistently. Yeah, I say 18 after high school. I basically took off. I went to Barcelona and then I started following like, yeah, I say 18, 19, I regularly was had a routine of cash games and everything. Do you remember your first big tournament win? How old were you and where was it? Yeah, I was, I was 20 years old. It wasn't Dominican. I went to Canada 2011. Yeah, it was November of 2011. I went there a couple of weeks ago for a vacation with a couple of buddies and then I saw that they had like a tournament in a couple of weeks. So I flew back to Toronto took a week, we can have their food back to Dominican and yeah, I ended up winning that tournament, which was one for like 140K US, which was you know, all the money in the world for me back then. I thought it was retired. That money didn't last that long, but it was a good, definitely a good experience for me. And yeah, obviously, probably the best, like the best win on my life, like it felt like I died age winning that kind of money was this like surreal feeling for sure. Hey, just taking a quick break. I want to talk about pinnacle. Pinnacle is the world's sharpest sportsbook and available the betters in Ontario. Find out what professional betters have known for decades. Pinnacle is where the best betters play. Must be 19 plus an Ontario, please play responsibly, not available in the US now back to the show. Was it part of it? You've arrived because it's one thing to like beat up on your local electrician who's gambling money that he shouldn't be gambling. It's a whole nother thing to go and test yourself against probably some pros in that tournament. Was that the first moment you're like, you know, what I've arrived on the scene? Uh, sure. Yeah, you can say that for sure. Give me a definitely a self confidence boost. When I was 18 years old, though, uh, when I, so I just turned 18, I actually flew to Barcelona for an EPT to play, uh, 8,300 Euro buying at the time, which was the main event when the Euro was like 1.7 or something. So it was like, it was like 13 and a half thousand Canadian to buy. And I thought I was the best player in the world. I was like, okay, I'm just going to go win this tournament. And I went there with like, basically like my whole bankroll almost, like, and I just bought in and, uh, yeah, I busted day two. So I didn't cash and, uh, yeah, that was, uh, but like, that was like a shot take. But I felt like that, that was just like, uh, when you have that in you, like, you're able to do that, that you need that kind of, uh, in poker for 60, that shot take, you get that risk. They call it leveling up, right? If you, you don't want to grind at the same stakes forever, you have to eventually take the step up into the table, right? Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. I remember watching the Daniel Negrano doc and he talks about how, you know, he's doing well in Toronto. He's, he's a well-known rounder and then he's flies over to Vegas and gets cleaned out and come back. And it took a while of going back and forth before he figured out what he was doing because he was trying to step up, uh, the states and try to level up. Yeah, he would go back home, grind up the bankroll, come back here, get rinsed, go back. And then if, yeah, exactly, eventually, you passed our hurdle, right? But it's not easy. Like, uh, you have to keep swinging the back. All right. You also had some success in Canada, right? In Toronto and Montreal playing some world poker tour. Um, you, did you win a tournament, uh, in Toronto for the world poker tour? Yeah. The WPT, uh, the 5K, the main, uh, 2019. So that was what, uh, it's been four years. What was the payday on that 520 community? So at this point, this is your, this is your big one. And now what's going through your head when you win this one? What's going through my head this one? Oh, this one was, uh, definitely special, you know, it was at home. Um, it was, uh, I had a lot of good chances. That was, uh, throughout my career to, uh, win a lot of tournaments. And I felt like I, I punted a lot of tournaments. Uh, so this one to finally sit right and, and get like a major victory was, was definitely like, was big, was big for me. Uh, obviously the, you know, the bankroll, the money was nice, you know, it helps with the bankroll for me to play higher six cash games, which is what I've been doing my whole life. And it just makes you get to play other, other big tournaments and it's like a parlay of leveling up. Now, um, I often hear about people who sell their action to backers, often for a markup. Have you, are you a guy who sells your action or do you own 100% of yourself in every tournament? I own 100% of myself in every tournament. I, I've never sold action. People always ask me, there's sometimes I'll sell to friends here and there, you know, just for the sweat. But I'll never, I've never sold any action to any backers. Uh, yeah. I'm just, I'm kind of that person. I like to do it on my own. I like to not wake up and do my own thing. I don't have to talk to nobody. I don't have to, you know, let anyone know my bad big story or anything. I know this because I've asked you before to buy some of your action and you, you always said you're good. Uh, and that was back in the day and obviously you're much more successful now. I want to talk about, um, I want, I used to watch the movie rounders before every tournament. I don't know. It's a weird superstition just to get in poker mentality. Do you have any poker movies that you love to watch? Uh, the one, well, he just said the one movie is probably the best, the best poker movie in the only poker rounders for sure is the one movie I, I, I, I, I will watch it once every couple of years. The only other movie that comes to mind for me is, uh, the stew hunger, high roll, their movie, uh, movie, uh, uh, uh, my curiosity is fantastic. Yeah, that's, uh, because for me, he's probably the, the greatest car player ever, uh, in terms of like skill and his time of when he was doing what he was doing, but yeah, those two movies are the only two movies I'll, uh, I'll ever watch the other poker movies. It's just kind of like too corny there, you know, all right. And for those who don't know stew hunger, uh, is widely seen as the most talented player to ever play poker. I believe he won the, uh, main event three times, but he was also a fantastic gin player. The, there was talks that he had to lay, uh, a handicap down on a matchup for anyone to ever bet him money. Like he would let you see the bottom card of the deck. Uh, and he wouldn't be, he wouldn't be privy to that information in order for you to agree to play gin with them because he was that brilliant of a card player. Um, you're in Vegas. I can see in your background, you're not in a studio. You're, you're, uh, enjoying it right now because you're playing in the main event and you were participating in a bunch of events in the World Series of Poker. When do you decide, all right, I think I can go to Vegas. I can hang with these guys. What year do you remember your first year going to Vegas and trying to make a run at it? Uh, as soon as I was 21, as soon as I was able to, uh, to come here and I was actually coming here under age. I used to come here when I was 18, 19 with my brother's ID, you know, double in the cash games. I actually want to turn them in a, a Caesar's palace with my brother's ID. Uh, yeah, like a small one like was maybe like, I want like 4k, but yeah, I used to come here when I was under age. I used to go to Atlantic City under age. Uh, but when I turned 21, I came here right away. Uh, I had a roommate stayed at the Palm's place and I was, I was in there. I was playing as many events as I can. You know, I had a bankroll from my, from the, from the Dominican win. So, yeah, as soon as I turned 21, I was here. So what does it look like when you get there for World Series a poker? Are you booking, uh, Airbnb sweets now? Are you still doing the hotel room? And how long do you plan on staying out there? Is it like, you're like, all right, I got a month or two while I'm out here. Every year is different for me. It's based on, uh, based on how I'm feeling. This year, I came here, I came here a little, a little late couple weeks ago, so I came on two and 20. Because the series is a long ride, right? And I also play a lot of poker throughout the year. Uh, yeah. So this year, I decided to rent the house, uh, here in, it's in Summerland, which is like 20 minutes off strip. Uh, I just feel like a, I don't like waking up in a casino every day and it's like a zoo there. So if I ever need a room, I just poke a room, but I like this vibe more, you know, I get to be more of a human, take a day off, have a barbecue, chill by the pool. Sure. Um, you said, uh, you play poker throughout the year. Do you ever get burnt out from poker? Do you ever get fatigued and say, I need a break? And if so, what's the longest you've gone without playing poker? Oh, yeah. Uh, definitely. I feel like I, I balance it too much on the other side or I've not, uh, I kind of enjoy like a little too much. I feel like I, I think I've gone easily three, three, three months with all playing it without even touching a card, yeah, or anything. Yeah. Is there a rust when you first get back to the, the tables? Are you bad? The first you were sessions? Sure. Yeah. There's rusty, but I say it takes maybe about two, three orbits and I'm back. So it just, it just comes back. Yeah. I'm going to tell a story demo on when I knew you were really good. Okay. We're at a, we're at a poker spot and you come in, uh, you come in and sit at a table and it's a cash game and it's maybe five or six hands in and you end up calling off a guy with like bottom pair. It, it might have even been like, and like full barrel, three barrels for all the chips and you call them down and you were right and I said to myself, man, like when I, when I saw your level of poker, I go, oh, man, I'm never going to ever be that good. I don't have that in me. And I said, this kid is special and anybody I ever talked to about you after I always said, he was the best player I've ever sat with at a table. Here's a number I'm going to throw at you. Okay. Two point five million in career earnings cash internament. And you're 47th all time for Canadian players. When I say these numbers to you, how does that make you feel? Uh, it doesn't really make me feel any, any type of way. I feel like, uh, I feel like I could, I, I haven't reached my potential in terms of poker. I feel like I've had a lot of setbacks in my career. Uh, a lot to do actually with, uh, with sports gambling. It really sent me back. Um, I obviously, I'm, I'm, I'm grateful. Uh, I have the, I have for these achievements, but, uh, yeah, I feel like I, I, I, no, I always tell myself, I feel like I, I, I, I, I can, I have a lot more to, to, to offer this game and a lot more, uh, I feel like I should, my achievements are not where they should be. So, but I'm also very hard on myself. Hey, before we get back to the show, I want to talk about the easiest way to improve as a sports better is by using multiple sports books and always getting the best odds. We recommend using an odds comparison tool like bet stamp. Bet stamp compares odds across every sportsbook for games, futures and player props, save time and money by checking bet stamp before you bet. Download the app today. If you're looking to sign up for a new sports book account, please check out the offers available at bet stamp dot app, forward slash circles off or hit the link in the description. If you sign up through this page, it helps support the show now back to the show. You have, I think all the great people are right. It's like you feel accomplished, but you also feel like, you haven't reached the peak of what you can do. You talked about sports betting sometimes, uh, gets you in trouble. I find there's a lot of overlap poker players will just because they're great poker players does not mean they're great sports betters. Um, because it's also, it's like the same way that I think I'm good at poker, but I'm not, I don't put in the hours of the necessary work to get good at poker. It's the same thing with sports betting. It's not as easy as rolling at 11 30 a.m. Sunday and football and trying to beat the board and throw some money at it, right? There's a lot that goes into the art of it. Um, I also have heard a lot of players that are either really good at chess or backgammon have transferable skills to poker. Um, do you, were you naturally good in backgammon and chess? And I know you said you were good at games and cards, but did you have a lot of overlap in like understanding optimal strategy and games like that? Yeah, for sure. Uh, there was a time where I, I was playing more backgammon in the poker. I would, uh, my life was, uh, wake up at one, two p.m. You know, go to, uh, Cafe Fraps there on the Danforth. I would play backgammon till, till about 645 until I had to put my, my 7 p.m. Bettson in my parlays. And then, uh, uh, from there, I would, I would go to a cash game I like after. So that was my life for, I would say from like 20 to like 25. That was basically my life. Uh, yeah, a lot of backgammon. I've logged in a lot of hours that I think. Uh, you had, you had an epic run, uh, in the main event a couple of years ago, you ended up finishing 10th place. Uh, was that your, that was your largest payday, uh, at this point in life? Yeah, it was. Yeah. Yeah. Bubble the, the final table. Also, biggest, I missed the biggest pageump in a world series of poker history, which will never happen again. That kind of thing. What was the pageump? What was the pageump 10th place? What did you get? And what would you have gotten if you made it to the final table of nine players? So 10th was 585 US, uh, 9th was a million. And from 9th to 6 was only the 400 K jump. So 9th, 8th was like 1.1. Sevens was like 1.25. Like there was like, uh, the difference from 10th to 9th was the same difference between 9th to 6. Wow. Also, you probably missed out on like sponsorship because those guys get final table. You get in front of, you know, all the viewers and you could probably get paid a lot of money for sponsorship at that point, right? Yeah. Not, not, not that that year was a COVID here. So, uh, it was, and also that's kind of that, that, that's kind of tied down the, like that was big maybe five four years. It might come back. That, that's, that kind of sponsorship you're talking about, but it's, it's not how it used to be. All right. Walk us through a big tournament. Day one, uh, you settle in. What is it like? Is there a nervousness in your stomach? Are you excited? Is there a buzz? There's a lot of people in the room. What does day one look like when you sit down in a major tournament? Uh, day one, you know, I want to say is for day one is more like, you know, is, is more of a grind like, uh, obviously the main event is different. This may be the one tournament where you have that, that, that buzz, but I would say day two and on is, is you get that, you get that buzz because when you put, when you start unbegging your chips on day two, you, but you, you, you have that like, okay, I like, but day one is like, you know, because 80% of the time you're, you're gonna bust a tournament. It's just, you're just, you're just, you're just gonna lose your money. So, uh, day one is, is more of like a grind day for, I would say, uh, I would say day two or not day two, anything day two, day three, day four is you, you, you have that like, that, that, that, that feeling where it's like, there's not, there's no better feeling than going deep in a tournament, put it that way. So, as a poker player, so for me, anything day two and on is, is when you start unbegging your chips is, you start thinking yourself, I'm, I, I'm gonna win this thing, right? Like it's, you start having this belief and you're starting to look at the final result coming. Oh yeah, if I make a day two, I feel like I won the tournament for sure. I'm like, okay, first place is this, okay, I'm gonna do this and this and this. All right, let me ask you, uh, all the dumb questions, but the stuff I'm curious about, are, do you snack at the table? Like what, uh, there's some people who love to eat at the table and some people who are like, no, I don't want to eat until break. What, what do you do when you're, when you're, uh, at a table? Are you snacking throughout? No, I'm definitely not a snacker. I'm more of a, black coffee, water, uh, I like to fast when I eat, uh, a lot of smoothies. Um, yeah, definitely not a snacker. I would say I, I, I maybe once a day when I play and, and it tends to be towards like the end of the day, but like the first five, six hours, I kind of, I'm on an empty stomach. I feel like it just helps me focus more, uh, makes my brain more alert and, uh, football Sunday is similar. A lot of people are asking, oh, what are you drinking? What are you eating? And I'm like, nothing. It's 30 cigarettes and, and coffee until seven o'clock until the four o'clock are over. That's the first moment where I can eat and be like, all right, the day's pretty much, uh, behind yeah, yeah, for sure. Let's talk about how poker has changed, right? Um, I feel like the players have gotten smarter, more math-based, optimal decisions. Um, have you noticed the change in poker from when you first started to now? And is it a lot harder to, to perform nowadays? Oh, absolutely, absolutely. Uh, there's a lot of information out on the game now. It's not like they used to be anyone who wants to like get good at poker and take it and actually put the time in and three months could become a pretty, pretty solid player terms of, uh, you know, game theory and learning the fundamentals of the game. Uh, obviously there is another aspect which I feel you can't be taught, you know, just having that natural instinct and natural presence on the table and understanding dynamics and stuff where that's what I feel my, my skill is which I don't think can be taught. I think it just comes with experience and just having a, a knock for the game. Well, yeah, the game is tough. Everyone is, uh, everyone is decent, is good now. Like even like, like a, you know, like a fish is, is, is, is, is not as big as the fish as they used to be. Like, yeah, for sure, game is, uh, not as, not as it once was. That's a lot, a lot, a lot harder. Do you ever play online or are you just live player? Uh, I definitely consider myself a live cash game player. Uh, I've pretty much, uh, yeah, I'm a PLO cash player. That's what I consider myself. I play online here and there. I'll play the, I'll play the alternatives online every, on the Sundays. I say like, you know, two, three times a year, but I used to grind the online, but, uh, yeah, I don't really like sitting in front of a computer indoors as much as you still like a few of chips and cards in your hand and like the tactical part of poker. Yeah, that, that's all I grew up. That's just, that's just what I like. That's just what I'm, what I'm, what I'm used to and what I, what I, what I feel I'm, I'm gonna make my money. What feels better? Holding off a massive bluff, we're calling light and being right. Wow, that's a tough one. Uh, both great feelings by the way. I would say it depends more on the opponent. Your, I would, I would be again, if I'm playing against the high level opponent, it would just feel better. If I play, uh, you know, someone that I don't really respect and I do something like that. I don't feel any sort, any source of satisfaction, but when I'm stimulating my brain against the high level player and we're, we're just doing the levels level warfare. And I succeed with one of those bluffs or like call downs that there's a higher satisfaction. Are you talking about like three level, three levels of thinking with those kind of bluffs where you get into level one, level two, level three thinking? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so part of being a good poker player is you need to get into your opponent's head and understand how they think about the game and their level of thinking. So, you know, when you, when you're just constantly like here, like, okay, this person thinks like here and you're always a step ahead, there's, there's no really like, it's just like whatever. But when you're like at a high level against another really, really high level opponent, then it gets fun and it gets tricky. Yeah, that's one. The, the, the tricks come off. You said how the opponent I'm playing against thinks. How much of what you're doing is also being self aware of how you're perceived at the table and playing off of that image? Oh, it's, it's a lot, a lot of it. You really need to be aware of what your opponents think about you. And there's times where that changes. There's times where the card to dictate that image, right? I could, I could go, I could sit down at a table. No one knows me for two hours. I, the deck hits me in the face and, or so, and I'm just playing a bunch of hands and because the cards allow me to play hands in those spots. And there's times where I just have to fold every hand and there are people just like, oh, this guy's just a type player or whatever. So, and you always have to have that, that awareness and remember that, what they think about you because there might be a time down the road in that tournament or in another tournament where you have to remember what that person saw you do and playing in that moment. So, yeah, self awareness is very, very important and understanding what each person thinks about you. Which professional poker player that's well known, do you think your style most compares with? That's a tough one. Have you been told you remind people of a certain type of player? I've been told I look like some players in terms of style. Well, but I would say like growing up, I definitely, I did get, there was a time me and my buddy were at a club when we were like 21 and it was random. Some kid came up to me and goes, you really look like still alive, he's a poker player. And this is a kid that didn't even know I played poker, nothing. It was pretty, it was pretty crazy. It was funny. Yeah, in terms of style, I don't know, tournament, are we talking tournaments, I guess? Overall. Overall. Yeah, maybe, I mean, I don't want to say, like, I would say for a life, yeah. He's just very, very aggressive. His tournament, I feel like the way he bets, I'm talking like, maybe like three, four, five years now, like now is maybe a little different, but yeah, I would say for a life, for sure. Yeah, I was waiting for you to say it because I think I've told you, remind me of fel ivy, you're very cerebral, you're aggressive, you intimidating. I don't, I don't really speak on the table, I don't really like, exactly, you're still, it's incredible. Yeah, yeah, I'm just, I take down the pod, I don't say anything, or I lose the pod, I don't say, yeah. In terms of that, for sure. All right, there's been debates about who the greatest player of all time is. I don't think this person is, but I'd be a fool not to say an acknowledged Phil Helmuth won his 17th bracelet this past week. Usually the debate comes down to Daniel, the Granu, or Phil ivy. Unless you think I'm completely missing the mark and there's somebody on this list that I'm not thinking of, who do you think's the greatest player of all time? Well, I said earlier, and I feel the greatest card player of all time is DeWonger. In terms of natural, you know, let's pick a card game, I'll take DeWonger over in his time in generation, just how much better he was than everybody. Obviously, in terms of accomplishments and overall, Phil ivy, in the first me growing up was always my goal. Nowadays, there's a million good players that people don't even know about, that are just that elite and you know, are just playing high stick cash games that no one really, no one knows who they are, like only like people in the game know them. Listen, guys like Helmuth and the Granu, they're obviously goats in terms of like they're always going to be like the, you know, the Gret skis and the, but they're not, they're not like, they're not the McDavid's. Do you think the talent level of poker in general is so much higher now, so whoever's succeeding in today's game is the best you've seen? Yes, yes, so the players are the main players, you know, when the poker will happen, they're just not, they're just not as good as the kids these days, they're just not. And that's not, they were, they were at the top at, you know, at the time, but nowadays it's just, the game has evolved and you really need to keep up with the game to just keep that elite level. Yeah, what about a guy like Fedor Holtz who comes out of nowhere and just goes on this two-year tear and like dominates? I'm not even sure if he's the best player of this generation because I don't follow poker as closely anymore, but when you think of like, you think of guys like him who are more recently dominating poker now? Yeah, for sure. He's one of those guys for sure that, you know, came on the scene and had a high level of success very young and for sure, he's still playing like the highest stakes, the big tournaments comes out for the big tournaments, has his own unique style that of like a street poker sort of call it where he does things in his, that, you know, that has his own game. And yeah, he's definitely one of those players that I would say is that at least level and, you know, yeah, he would be up there in the conversation for tournament players. Last question. Do you ever see a day in your life where you no longer desire to play poker? Yeah, I feel like I will always play poker. I definitely don't want to play poker as like a main source of income or after to rely on poker to make money. I think I would eventually want poker, you know, what's the combination for the World Series? Play my five tournaments I want to play, have fun with it or travel in different destinations and just have it as like a hobby. That's where eventually I would, I want to be the businessman who's playing with the pros. That's that's, that's where I eventually all well. We love to be. But for now, I'm still in the, still in the grind. All right, I appreciate it. Demo, you are there in Vegas. We can see it in the backdrop. When this podcast drops, I'm hoping that you're going to be day four into the main event, making a deep run as always. And I don't know if you know this, but whenever I see your name in a tournament and, and you're going deep, I'm always, I'm always on your rail. Like I'm always following and reading the updates. And I, I'll never message you until it's over and I usually wait a day or two to let the pain of the loss or the exhilaration of going deep. But I always send you a message like, Hey, great job, man. I was, I was following you because I'm a big fan of yours. Always have been. I know, I appreciate that. I know, I really appreciate your messages and I know they're genuine. And I know, I know who's, who's trained for me. So I've, I remember us playing, you know, I can remember walking up gamble. They're going to, uh, doing our little tournaments. I remember at Lazzis, how's it used to do some $20 tournaments. But, and, you know, it was me and, and the older boys, you know, you guys were the older boys. And that was, uh, that was the time of my life. I'll never forget it. And for sure, uh, definitely had some impact in molding me for the player I am now. So I appreciate you. And, uh, I'll top you to do this, man. Sure. Perfect. Thank you, Demo. Well, thanks, man. Hey, that's it for me. Another edition of 90 degrees is in the books. I want to thank my guest, Demo Cariopolis, professional poker player, the sponsors of this show, pinnacle and bet stamp, and my producer Jason Cooper. Thanks for listening to me a favorite before you go. Like the content, subscribe, share and comment. We'll be back next week with another guest on the 90 degrees podcast, where we give an inside look into the sports betting industry. That's it for me. Hope you enjoyed. Until next time.