90 Degrees | Episode #35 Cracking the Tennis Betting Code With Vinny

On this week's episode of 90 degrees, we talk about if men or women's tennis is easier to beat, dealing with the pressure of giving out public plays for free, and how watching an athlete's Instagram page can lead to hidden edges. That and more on today's episode of the 90 degrees podcast. Welcome back to the 90 degrees podcast. I'm your host, G-StatGeorge, and I'm excited because today we're talking tennis. If you haven't figured it out, Wimbledon is going on, and I had to get somebody who's an expert in the field. I got Vinny, tennis better, and content creator for the Hammer HQ, ACE Previews, and online betting.com. Vinny, thanks for joining me. Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm just way too excited because this really is such an honor to me to be invited to a podcast. I've been looking up to all the time. So yeah, thank you so much for giving me the opportunity. And sorry for my broken English in advance. No, you are good. It's the honors for me because you're going to educate me today and a lot of people out there who love tennis and they don't know what they're doing when they're betting it. I want to know though, were you a fan of tennis before you started betting or did your fandom grow as you were betting it? Yeah, so in general, I was a sports fan through and through already as a young kid and tennis was one of these sports, yeah, but yeah, when I figured out all the basics about betting like regarding the market, not betting a certain side just for the sake of it then. And so on and tennis quickly became my favorite sport to bet on as well. Yeah, so first and foremost, I was a fan and then it grew into the betting as well. Can you still watch a tennis game without having a bet on it? I know some people betting has ruined sports for them that they cannot watch without having money on the line. And that's a funny question because for me, it's the other way around. I hardly ever watch a match I'm financially involved in because first, betting super high volume, so it wouldn't even be possible. And you watch a match completely differently if you have money on it. So most of the times I'm watching different matches, even when a match I'm having a bet on is going on simultaneously. Yeah, just for the reason that I'm much more relaxed and can analyze players and watch stuff, I probably wouldn't watch when I was financially involved in it. So yeah, it's much better when I'm indifferent about these players and yeah, that's much more of the norm for me to not watch a match. You said you're betting high volume. What does betting in Germany look like? Like are there physical sports books? Is it just online? Are there a lot of illegal sports books and bookies? Are you betting offshore? For those of us who have no idea what the industry looks like in Germany, tell us. Yeah, so there are physical bookies, but really there are only old people that want to grab a drink as well. And in general, betting in Germany is very uneducated. So that's why I was always looking up to you guys and to American Twitter as well. You have guys like Rob or you and a lot of educational people around. So in Germany, really it's different and it's also tough because it's almost impossible to win even if you know what you're doing because in Germany the state takes 5% tax on every winning bet you make. So yeah, like if you say you place a hundred dollar wager on a plus 100, you only get back 195. And we all know how narrow the edges are these days and it's almost impossible. That's why I'm only betting offshore and through partners because otherwise it wouldn't be possible. So maybe one more. There are books that take these taxes. They pay them for themselves, pay for themselves, but in return they offer much worse odds. Yeah, you're trying to beat an additional vague. You talk about watching the markets. Is that what your style is? Would you describe yourself as someone who's watching the markets? Do you originate your own lines and then bet accordingly or do you break it down to how does this guy match up against this guy? Yeah, so first of all, I'm really originating. So I do have my own model with all the data like hold percentage, break percentage, surface rating and all that stuff. But yeah, the one one component in tennis that brings so many more factors in. Like you said, match up styles and yeah, I'm trying to handicap these as well. And I also follow players closely on social media because yeah, other, other others only watch the news or injury injuries and health news and through social media also get get a grip on their personal life bit. Of course, not too serious, but sometimes that's like an additional edge to have. What do you look what do you look for to find out who's parting too hard the day before the tournament? Yeah, partying is one. Yeah, so you probably know kick Nick Kirios. Yes, I do. And he really, he has no shame in posting a party picture at 4am in Mexico. And yeah, he's probably still able to win matches, but if you spot a player that's parting with him, that might be player to post next day. So yeah, I'm originating. But of course, also following the market. So if another sharp better put the line into place already, I'm not betting it anymore, of course, because yeah, the edges away. I love that scouring somebody's social media. For those of us who don't know, like, are you betting just straight up the the money line prices on who's going to win the match up? Are there bigger edges within like set betting or games the spread betting on the spread of how many games a guy's going to win by? Which like, how would you describe your ratio of bets within one tennis match? Yeah, I almost never only got one match, one bet on a match. Because if there's a few C and edge on the money line, there probably also is one on a satin recap or a spread because I'm mostly betting underdogs. So I was betting money lines only like a few years ago, but it's so stressful because even if your player like steps up and keeps the match closed but ultimately loses, you'll be there with nothing and often as usually the lines are correlated, sorry. So to come away with something, I also bet the spread as well. Yeah. Are you making notes like while you're watching matchups to pick up on maybe a guy's a teague or maybe he pulled a hammy, he was able to continue the match and win, but you just know that that's something that might linger into the next matchup. Are you doing that? Like you're watching games to pick up potential future information? Yeah, definitely. So as I said earlier, I'm watching a lot. So not the matches I'm on, but I always try to watch like five, six hours a day. Doing tape study and like you say, try to pick up something with players limping or getting medical timeouts because it's not in the news all the time, especially on the lower tours. So yeah, there can be that's that's one of my edges, I think, watching following the tour and the players closely. One of one of another edges that I heard that you have a friend of the show Drew Dinsick says you have an eye for upcoming talent. Like how are you spotting those players before they become a household name? And I imagine the edges are are largest with players like this just because no one's no one's heard of them. Yeah, that's for sure. So I was always having fun or there was always one of my favorites to spot talent in any sport. Like as you know, in Germany, we have a big football culture soccer culture. Sorry. And yeah, I was playing FIFA or football manager and always guarding these 16 year old Brazilians or stuff. So and in tennis, it's no different. No one really follows the lower tours. So as you say, it's much easier to find edges and when the market or even the bookmakers aren't as informed. So what I do is I watch as many matches of these youngsters as well as possible. And yeah, then I'm putting notes like all that guy has a great serve, powerful forehand, etc. And yeah. And then it's it's also some kind of assessment like can they do it on the pro tour? Are they just dominant on the junior level or can they really take on the top guys? Yeah, it's a completely different game when you step up to the pro tour. And yeah, a lot of these junior top guys just didn't make it to the top in the pro tours. Whether they're not up to it mentally, you can also watch it on the tape because some crazy juniors are throwing their records or so. And I also marked on your mental fragile maybe. And yeah, I have a sheet with all the prospects and that gets bigger every day. So yeah, also you asked for the edges. They are of course large, but it's also the same as in every sport I guess. They get destroyed quicker and quicker unfortunately. Sure. Well, I want to pick up on two things you said there. You talked about the mental aspect. You hear about that in golf where the mental game really comes into play. How much like what percentage of mental is tennis as opposed to just peer physical attributes? For me, it's really a lot. It's not really measurable, but yeah, it's also betting on tennis is quite special because it's a lot of intuition that also goes into it. There are guys like, yeah, let's stay with Kirja who's who's a hothead, but he can still forget about everything what it was before and just carry on. So it's hard to to really say like 20% or so, but I really think it's also speaking of the one one on one component. It's really something that has to be regarded. Hey, before we get back to this show, I want to talk about Pinnacle. Pinnacle is the World's Sharper Sportsbook and available to betters and Ontario. Find out what professional betters have known for decades. Pinnacle is where the best betters play must be 19 plus in Ontario. Please play responsibly not available in the US there. You talked about the mental aspect. You hear about that in golf where the mental game really comes into play. How much like what percentage of mental is tennis as opposed to just peer physical attributes? For me, it's really a lot. It's not really measurable, but it's also betting on tennis is quite special because it's a lot of intuition that also goes into it. There are guys like, yeah, let's stay with Kirja who's a hothead, but he can still forget about everything what it was before and just carry on. So it's hard to really say like 20% or so, but I really think it's also speaking of the one one on one component. It's really something that has to be regarded. Now, there's one thing that's unique about tennis versus a lot of other sports. It's not just the opponent you face. It's the surface you play on. It's different. It's got that baseball dynamic of no two parks are alike. You could have player A and player B and playing on clay, grass, or a hard court, and you have to have three different handicaps on that. Is that correct? Yeah, that's totally correct. And you had that all the time with Federer and Nadal. They faced each other in the French open final and it was always Nadal winning. And then a few weeks later at Wimbledon, it was like most of the time it was Federer who won. So yeah, also, yeah, of course it's about the style of the player. So with a big serve, you get better on grass because the ball skids through the grass and doesn't bounce too much on clay. It's hard to even hit a nice. So physics get more and more important on clay. And that's why Rafa was so successful on it. So yeah, you always have to check the players and the attributes as well. Exactly because as you say, they are totally different on grass, clay, or hard courts. Yeah. So like a guy like joke of it who's an excellent ball striker so hard to be on hard courts because he can pinpoint everywhere. He puts the ball, but explaining the dynamics of clay because for those of us who know tennis at a surface level, we know that there's usually a guy or a girl who dominates clay courts and nobody can touch them. Okay, you say aces are hard to come by. What is the bigger edge on clay? Does it come from just pure speed or does it come from understanding the ball bounces differently? Why is Nadal better on clay than anybody who's ever played? What's what part of his skill set creates that? First of all, with Nadal, it was the work ethic, of course. You have to hit like five, six, seven winners to even get one point against Nadal. So physics, of course, are more important than on any other surface. And with Nadal as well, the mental factor also came into place again because yeah, he won Rollogaross like six, seven, eight, nine, ten, 14 times. And then people started to not believe in themselves and how do I even get a set against him. And that also played a role, I think. There were tournaments in the last two he won, where he looked vulnerable, but no one really believed in themselves to even beat him. So mental aspect because you have to win rallies more than once. And that also, the physics as well. I see a lot of people on Twitter who follow tennis and bet on it. They love talking about their futures portfolio. When you walk into a tournament, do you have an extensive portfolio? Like I know with golf, people buy on five or six golfers kind of altogether and hope for one of them to win. Are you betting futures entering tournaments? Do you have multiple players? Do you stick to one or two? Yeah, so I used to play a lot of futures because yeah, as you say, in golf as well, tournaments are only one or two weeks in tennis. You can get nice hits on these markets on a weekly basis. But yeah, this year I haven't been as successful as in the past. So yeah, I recently didn't play too many futures, but when I do, I usually look at the top half down second half and look where might be the top favorite, like if a jokovitch is in there, I try to aim for the other half and look for some dark horse that can make it to the final. And yeah, that was always my strategy because yeah, you can win on the favorites as well, of course, but yeah, like jokovitch is now minus, I don't know, minus 160 or so to win Wimbledon and you never know maybe he hit a ball person again or stuff like that happens. So yeah, so I'm usually going for the bigger underdogs and there's also more options on futures markets like to win the quarter or the each way option if you know that. So if a player makes to the final, you get paid out half half the odds, even if he loses. So yeah, I loved to play tennis futures. I did not do that as frequently recently, but I'm speaking of Wimbledon. I'm sitting on two nice futures here because I'm on the women's side. I placed futures on Arena Savalanka and Elena Vibachina when they faced each other in the Australian Open Final and I got them both at plus 1000. They're both both plus 400 and now I think that's pre-tournament of course. And yeah, that was also having to do with the quick cards in Australia, Wimbledon, grass, plays quick. So I thought these two played red tennis that prize won last. So maybe that gets me into placing more futures against the future. Okay, two questions about futures then. Do you ever place them before you see the bracket or do you always wait to see what the bracket looks like? Always looking for the bracket. Yeah. And it's easier to bet an tournament where there's no clear favorite like where a joke of itch is out and it's a little bit more variance because it becomes an open tournament as opposed to you're just fading joke of itch when you're playing futures that he's in. Yeah, because on the men's side, I'm not sure if I'm placing a future because Novak is favorite and there's a reason for it. And yeah, so I do like the variance of an open tournament and still I'm always looking for the bracket because I can see analyze the matchups and oh he has a pretty nice path to the semis but books don't really adjust that in my opinion. They just put down the players and they're they're old and I think when you're analyzing the matchups and possible matchups of course it's always luck involved but yeah, I'm always looking for the brackets. Is live betting a tennis something that you do? It seems like it could be very lucrative. Yeah, so as we've already talked about the one-on-one component, it's like the ideal setup for live betting. If you see a player struggling, oftentimes the bookmakers don't really adjust their prices. They only adjust them when there's a major injury or medically time out or something and even then they just put the odds on hold and reopen them at the same price most of the time. So yeah, live betting really can be lucrative and especially if you see a player watching the match see them losing focus or hitting unforced errors. Yeah, you can step right in because yeah, as I said, bookies really they have the algorithm point by point but they only really adjust the odds when there's a major thing happening. Got it. Wimbledon is on right now. Are you better at betting certain majors over others? I don't believe in that. So yeah, some people they do have a favorite major because that work for them every time but yeah, I'm not the guy that, that's my favorite major. I'm always winning that because like if you major the French open or Wimbledon, it's once every year. So sample size is really small. Even if you win like five, six, seven Wimbledons in row, it's still a small sample size because yeah, yeah, maybe you can say it for surfaces over a longer time span and you can say, oh, my handicap on grass is not as good as on play but yeah, that does correlate with correlate with majors but just majors alone maybe mentally but I don't really think. That's that's an issue. Okay, then as a fan, what's your favorite major to watch? Do you have one that is your like this is the one? This is my favorite time of year. Yeah, that was always the French open for me. Don't know why but I always found it fascinating when players constructed their points, ran 20 miles an hour but ran like 25 balls and still got to the ball and hit a winner in the end. So that was always my type of tennis I was like I was liking to watch and yeah, on play, yeah, it was always, sorry, also my favorite player was best on play with Tavo Kyrton. He won the French open in 97, 2000, 2001 and yeah, so that was like more of my favorite major because Wimbledon despite all its like prestige. I'm not a fan of like players hitting a nice preparing for the next serve for 30 seconds, hit another ace. So hey, the easiest way to improve as a sports better is use multiple sports books and always get the best odds. We recommend using an odds comparison tool like bet stamp. Bet stamp compares odds across every sports book for games, futures and player props save time and money by checking bet stamp before you bet. Download the app today. If you're looking to sign up for a new sports book account, please check out the offers available at bet stamp dot app forward slash circles off or hit the link in the description. If you sign up through this page, it helps support the show now back to the interview. Women's and men's tennis. I'm assuming there's a lot more liquidity in men's tennis people want to bet it more. Is it is one easier to bet than the other? In my opinion, it's not, but yeah, more liquidity. That's because more people are betting men's tennis. So for most of them, it's easier to bet on men's tennis, but it's because they don't care about women's tennis. So for me, I do bet on women's tennis and follow it really closely. As well. Easier like maybe the favorites are easier to or they are more steady on a man's side like Djokovic. He never loses first round. But that's for me. That's also an opportunity on a women's side because like I said, I'm betting underdogs quite frequently. And if you see that favorite co-favorite is vulnerable or she didn't prepare too well for that tournament, that's also, for me, I see it as an opportunity and that's that being said, that's easier for me to see an underdog on the women's side. Like for example, Iga Shiontek, who's the number one women's player. She was on a 37 match winning streak last year. And I never really opposed her because she grew into Rafa Nadal and no one really could touch her like mentally as well. But then at Wimbledon, she's not that good on grass. So there was a player that's okay on grass like Ali Zekone. And I still know I never opposed her Shiontek, but on that day, I did oppose her at plus 600. And for me, that was a perfect spot. And you don't really find that on the man's side. So yeah, like with every sport, the more you focus on a sport like WTA, ATP, the better you are. And the easier it is to bet on it, yeah. Can I ask you the dynamic of why you believe upsets happen more frequently on the women's side versus men's? And I have a theory. In football, the playoffs is a one game sample size, right? And if you are the better team for one game, there's a higher likelihood of an upset versus basketball, which traditionally has the best team or the best one or two seeds or three seeds of one, all the championships over the last 30 years because in a seven game sample size, eventually the better team will see itself through through seven games. And I know with men's tennis, it's it's the best of five sets. And with women's outside of a select few tournaments, it's the best of three sets where you like you could get two sets up on joke of it, but eventually he'll dig deep and come out of it. Whereas in women's tennis, one hour, one bad hour of tennis, and you're out of the tournament, do you think that's the dynamic or do you think it's something else completely? No, that's that's a very valid point. Of course, like if you have someone playing steady tennis for five, six hours, if it has to be and that is Djokovic or it has been Nadal, it's so hard to beat them. But yeah, I also got another point. So maybe it's just the era we are right in there right now with the women because when Serena Williams was on top, it was also the same with her. Like you couldn't beat her no matter the surface, but yeah, right now we we do have Shiontek, but yeah, she's not yet the player that has been Serena Williams. So maybe that's also a bit of an arrow shift. Sure. You mentioned Serena, who I believe is it's undisputed that she is the greatest women's tennis player of all time. Men's seems to be a little bit more disputed depending on who you ask. I'm going to just flat out ask it because he's been my favorite player since Pete Sampras. I think Djokovic is the best player of all time. Do you think I'm wrong in that or do you think it's debatable? Yeah, so you're definitely not wrong because objectively he has the most majors now and when it comes down to it, I think the overall majors one will decide the gold race and with Djokovic now in front, I think there's not too much of a debate anymore. But yeah, if you go for best skill set, it's probably Federer. If you go for hardest worker, it's Nadal and Djokovic just somehow put all the aspects together and yeah. So I think objectively, there's no way around Djokovic. I hate Mount Rush more questions, but I'm going to ask you one because it's such an easy way to put a perspective on what you believe are the greatest players to have ever played. If you had to make a men's and women's Mount Rush more, the four greatest players of all time, who would what would it look like? So on the men's side, of course, obviously Novak, Rafa, Roger. And I'm glad you mentioned him. I think I would go with Pete Sampras as well. Had such a fun play and I also got lucky to watch him when his career was at the end, but I still got to watch him. And yeah, he also has the fourth most majors, I think, with 14. Yeah, so there might be some people giving it to Andy Murray because of the era which was so good and he was competing against the big three, but the hour also go with Pete. Sorry, on the women's side, yeah, of course, Serena, even though that's just one major left for her to catch up to Margaret Court, whom I never saw play, but if you have the most majors one, even if it was much easier to win Grand Slams back in the day, I also put her up there and then as a German, I have to say, Stefan Graf was well. She also won 22, one less than Serena, and all of them at least four times, I think. And then you, okay, I think, I'd go with Monica Sellett because, yeah, she only won, I don't know, eight or nine majors, but she could have gotten such a big career. If it wasn't for that German psychopath, I don't know if people know that story, probably not, but there was a tournament in Hamburg and Sellett was really up and coming. She won, I don't know, number seven or eight majors by the age of 20. And Stefan Graf was on top, by then, and there was a mentally ill German fan of Stefan Graf, and he really stabbed Sellett in the back during a match. So really googled that, and yeah, she really, really wasn't the same after that incident. Didn't play tennis for two years, I think, and never got back to it. So that's the most what could have been story in tennis, yeah. So I would go with her. Oh, wow. Okay, I want to pinpoint your era of loving tennis because I'm going to tell you mine, and then you can figure out when I started watching my favorite, or when I first started watching Pete Sampress was on top for the men's, and Martina Hinges was on top for the women. So that was the era that I started watching tennis. When you started watching tennis, so I can gauge how long your fandom was, who was at the top of the game when you started watching? That's probably around the same way. When I started watching, when Hinges was still up and coming, I don't think she was number one back then, but I wasn't really, I started watching it, but I didn't really follow the the rankings or stuff. So that's why I can't really tell you who was on number one back then. But yeah, probably around the same time, yeah. You, we talked about Kyrgyz. Also, my fellow Greek player, Stefano's TTC pass. Both of them seemingly have all the talent, but haven't put it all together, and TTC pass I thought was going to win. I believe it was the French open when he was up to sets to none, and the Joker dug deep and showed his greatness. What are they both missing? What is the element that hasn't gotten them to the next level, and do you think will ever happen for either one of them? So for TTC pass, I really think it's mentally, especially after that defeat, Bajokovich. He never really got to another major final, and that was his chance to push his career and get closer to the top guys, and that's just something missing on every surface for him. On play, it's like mentally, I think. Grasse, he was never that good because of his one-handed backhand. That's vulnerable on defense. And yeah, Kyrgyz, obviously, not the hardest worker out there. He did make the Wimbledon final, so if it wasn't for Jokovic there, he might have won it. Yeah, but maybe he still has it in him, but I don't think he cares too much about tennis to become a multiple major winner. He has probably the most talent of all the players to be honest, but yeah, he also likes to enjoy his life. He plays to him, and he's happy with what he's doing, so all good. You give out a lot of picks on Twitter. I always want to know, because I don't give out anything. Why do you do that? Is it like, is it to prove credibility, validate your action? Are you trying to gain betting partners? What's the intention when you post plays on Twitter? So, I'm not really doing it that frequently anymore. Now I started again, but yeah, I started my Twitter account in 2016, I think. And it was right around the time when I was trying to do this on a more professional level, because until that time, I was really the typical direct batter, so losing all the time, thinking I got everything figured out when I didn't. And yeah, with Twitter, that also changed, because yeah, as you said, Dredinsik was on the show two weeks or three weeks ago. And yeah, he, formerly known as Whalecapper, somehow discovered me on Twitter, and introduced me to some other sharp minds in the tennis community. And yeah, so that was the first step, and then, of course, I enjoyed that, and I carried on giving out picks, and being respected by these guards really means the world to me, but yet to be honest, I take every little criticism after losing bet much harder than I enjoy validation after winning bet, so as no social media is so cruel nowadays, so, and I don't want to let that influence my wellbeing or betting, so when I'm not feeling it, I'm not posting picks for free. I ask that because when my friends, I won't, I don't share my plays because it feels almost thankless where they don't remember the winners, but they'll criticize and point out the losers. Like, does this add stress and pressure to you? And have you ever had a sustained losing streak while doing this? And, like, how did you deal with it? Like, it was their blowback, and overall, the aspect of writing the negative side of variance while sharing stuff publicly. Yeah, as I said, I'm taking it way too hard. Like, sometimes I can't let go, and really giving out picks for free, they pressure on my head is so much bigger than just doing it for myself, and even though I've never been the guy that was like a hundred likes and retweets for my next play, I've never done that, and that would only increase the pressure. So, I know why I didn't do that, but yeah, that's also a bit of a contradiction because maybe you know, but I started a paid service back in 2019, but for me, that's different because most of the people that pay for the service, they know the ups and downs that come with betting, and yeah, spoiler, even pro-betters or sharpest minds are losing, but yeah, in the group, it's really, I can work calmly without having to win every bet, which is different on the free page, unfortunately, because yeah, an educated must still expecting win every bet from the touts. So, yeah, I also had my first losing year, actually, in 2021, but still got positive feedback from like 99% of myself, so that really is important to me, and that makes me work calmly, and yeah, doesn't get me too distracted, yeah, sorry. You said you had a losing year, so when you go through a prolonged stretch of losing, does doubt ever creep in like, have I lost my edge? Do I have I just been lucky for a long time, and is this reality hitting me? Like, what's your mental status, and how do you deal with those losing streaks? Yeah, definitely. I was thinking a lot in 2021, because yeah, I think it started quite okay, but then I really had three, four months I was losing, and I was losing badly, and of course, thoughts are creeping in, and yeah, as you say, you think have I lost my edge? Have others kept up? Do I not read them or could write anymore? And yeah, just coming back to my subs again, and I'm really so thankful, like most of their touts are really no good people, but for me, it's so different, because they really encouraged me, and they told me that it's just variances, and everything will get better, you, which is unlucky, is still getting close in land value. It's all the things you might not realize yourself when when you're down, but yeah, then, fortunately, 2021 started great again, and finished great as well, so yeah, I'm doing this for this sixth year now, professionally, and yeah, hope, hope it wasn't just a prolonged luck experience. Yeah, right, it's, you'll, at that moment, you're like three years of winning, you have doubts about that, and that, you know, that's six months of losing, and you're just like, oh, man, you read too much into it. Okay, I feel foolish here, I didn't know that you could bet on the Tour de France, the Tour de France, which is going on right now, and I should have known, because as human nature, we want to bet on everything, explain to me what kind of markets you can bet on in the Tour de France. So, yeah, first of all, I'm also fan of cycling, as I have said, when I was a kid, I was watching like every sport, and cycling was big back then, until then I'm strong, and like the whole peloton really destroyed it with everyone being doped, and then I came back like a few years ago, gaining interest again, and here it's really, slowly but surely becoming my second favorite sport, because, yeah, you're asking which markets you can bet on, they are really unique markets, like you can bet on the stage winner, like the Tour de France has 21 stages, it goes for three weeks, then you can bet on the overall winner, who has the fastest time over all the 21 stages, in France, the winner gets the famous yellow jersey, and then you have alternative markets as well, like best sprinter, most of these points are awarded at the end of stages, especially on flat stages, for the sprinters, then best climber, like there are flat stages and mountain stages, yeah, and on every mountain you can gain extra points, so there's also classification for that, then there's best youth rider, 25 or younger, and the best team as well, so a team consists of eight riders, and three of them are eligible, and there's three fastest guys, each stage can't for the team classification, so yeah, it's really fun. You said you can bet on who does the best on flat ground, and who does the best on the uphill, is it like how soon does the books, can the books grade it, how soon are the times official, does it take a while, or is it instantaneous? So you're talking the results after a stage? Yeah, yeah, so like do they hit the stopwatch, the second the flat ground starts, and then the second it ends, they hit it again, and instantaneously they can tell you in real time, this is who did the best on flat ground, this is who did the best on uphill, or am I misunderstanding it? I think so, and so there's the best sprinter, you always get points at the end of stages, so there are cameras everywhere, of course, and if it's really close, there's a photo finish, and then in the end, you see through the camera, we've got first, second, third, and fourth, and then the first sprinter of the stage gets 50 points, the second, 35, and so on, and at the end there's a classification, like if I don't even know if it's really 50 points, but if one rider wins three stages, then he got 150 points. And that gets accumulated, and in the end, the one with the most points is the best sprinter. Hold on though, is this a stage a whole day, or is it a stage? Oh, so okay, when you say, there's days where it's just flat ground, and there's days where it's just uphill? Yeah, exactly. Okay, I thought it was like, say you're riding for 10 hours, there's a two-hour stretch that's flat, there's a two-hour stretch that's uphill, and I thought I feel like timing, you know how in Formula One, they timed section, sector one, sector two, sector three, I was trying to figure out what you meant by seeing. No, it's not like that, they have 21 stages, and the stages, like they ride for six or seven hours a day, and there are stages that are just flat for the sprinters, and there are stages that are on the mountain finish, so the general classification gets decided on the mountain finish, but finishes, because obviously the time differences are getting bigger when it's going uphill. What about, what about, okay, data, like I know with Formula One, they got three days of practice, and they have qualifying, there's things that you can take into account when you're trying to figure out what bet to make, is that a thing with cycling? Are they doing practice runs, and you can pick up times, like if so, do you think people sandbag, and how do you read through that? Yeah, there is data out there, but it's really not that much, it's like they measure what's per kilogram, I think, and yeah, there are, there's an app called Strava, Strava, which most of the riders are using, so you can compare the times on different climbs or so, but I think cycling is the one sport, if you ask me, if you're not watching it or knowing the riders, you can't be profitable, so I'm really not taking too much on the data, but they, all the riders, like they try to time their form perfectly, most of them for the Tour de France, let's say, and if you see a rider struggle on like stage 11 or 12, they probably won't get better when the Tour heads towards the end, so you have to catch the form of the players of the riders, and yeah, for me, that's the most important thing to regard in cycling betting. You know, I often regard to things that people bet on as like your betting portfolio, and some people specialize in two, three sports, like for myself, it's football, it's combat sports, and it's political events, and I thought that was a little bit obscure and different, so you've got tennis, you've got cycling, is there any, is there anything else in your betting portfolio? Like, do you bet the, oh, you bet darts too, that's probably even more obscure. That looks so much fun to bet on darts, man. Yeah, but I'm honest, I like, with a tennis, I rather watch a darts game without having a bet on because darts is so much fun, you enjoy all the 180s, but when you're having a bet on, like all the joy is out of the out of the window, but yeah, these aren't my three sports, and they aren't. I know the word, but yeah. I don't think there's anybody else with that kind of portfolio, I thought I had one, I had a strange one, you've got me beat there. Yeah, I think so too. Vinnie, I want to thank you for your time, man. This was so much fun, and I loved, I think I got a better education. I don't think I'm going to start betting tennis or cycling or darts anytime soon, but I love to learn, and this was a true learning experience for me. Yeah, thank you again for having me still feels a bit surreal, but thank you for the opportunity, and thanks for having me yet. Perfect, and good luck with all your bets in Wimbledon. Thank you so much. That's it for me. Another edition of 90 degrees is in the books. I want to thank my guest Vinnie, tennis, veteran content creator for the Hammer HQ, ACE Previews, and online betting.com. I want to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Pinnacle and Bet Stamp, and my producer Jason Cooper. Thanks for listening. Do me a favor before you go. I want you to like the content, subscribe, share, and comment, and if you comment, I'll comment back on your comment. We'll be back next week with another guest on the 90 degrees podcast where we give an insight look into the sports betting industry. That's it for me. Hope you enjoyed. Until next time.