Episode 117: Reacting to RJ Bell's Dream Preview: The After Party Panel

On this week's episode of Circles Off, Johnny's back in the co-host chair. We're gonna get to a wide variety of topics, including Producers Zach making some minus EV moves. And we're gonna react to the RJ Bell Dream Podcast, talking about content creators in the space, what's acceptable, what's not. All that and more, this week's episode of Circles Off starts now. Come on, let's battle! Welcome to Circles Off episode number 117, right here. On the Hammer Bedding Network, Rob Pizzola joined by Johnny from Betstamp, back in the co-host chair, our things. Back after a week off, you guys survived, don't you? Yeah, it was good. We got a lot of views last week's episode. Yeah. How does that make you feel? Just waiting to be replaced. You guys let me know. No, it was a good, it was a long episode, so I think a lot of people wanted to hear it and George's origin story as well. Gee, stack. What a nice guy. What a nice guy. He is a good dude. He gave me a little cigarettelo when he left last week, because I think I mentioned that I wish I had like a cigar for the golf, and he's like, oh, a smoke one of these. He came when he came in here last time, he gave me a beautiful bottle of scotch that I was enjoying just out of the blue. What a just a genuine occasion gift. Appreciate that. I mean, he brought each of us, so me, you and Zach, behind the glass, a bottle of scotch. Yeah. George, Rob actually sold this. He flipped it for a bottle of money. This respect that I actually am enjoying mine. Thank you. No, I never would do that, but on top of that, he did the interview here with Cabby. He gave him a Kobe Bryant Rooking card. Yeah, I know. I was looking those up on eBay. I mean, there's probably a couple of dimes for that card. Yeah, Cabby's like, you just blew the budget for the show. They don't know if he didn't have a budget. There was no budget for 90 degrees. Budget is zero. Yeah, there will be. Number 17. 17. Ilya Kovalchuk. Yeah. Great as Jersey, the powder, blue, falk, uh, thrashers. What am I saying here? Atlanta thrashers, powder, blue, downless sleeve. That's a Jersey. Philip Rivers is my favorite number 17. You will not get in the Hall of Fame because that scumbag Eli Manning will because he won the two Super Bulls. But if you go back to that draft class, Rivers, Rathus Burger, Eli, poor rivers, just could never get it done, man. Poor you. You almost came out of retirement last year, San Fran won the, won the NFC. I actually saw that story. That would have been really, it's down to been bananas. Oh, man. Rivers has the chance to win the Super Bull. He leaves about 100 million percent and not won the Super Bull. He leaves his wife at home with his 20 kids. He's got a lot of kids. I think he's got double digit kids. He's wise, pregnant again. Yeah. Rivers, uh, I could never book him as a guest when I was a radio producer. The easy way to book guests if you want to book an athlete, obviously you contact the team. But the PR guy, depending on how big, you know, your, your, your station is or whatever, then always going to give you the best players from the team. So you might show for Phillip Rivers and they'll be like, uh, Phil's not available, but like this guy is or whatever. Middle line backer. Okay, sure we'll do an interview. Have some fun. But you would always be able to get guests by like saying you'll promote their products. So I got like drew blood so once because we were promoting like his winery or Charles Woodson, the exact same thing. Or if they were playing in like a charity tournament, it's like, we'll have you on and we'll talk about your charity golf tournament. Like, boom, we'll do it. But Phillip Rivers, every single time, I still love Phillip Rivers, but it was always like, we'll make a live donation to the Rivers of Hope Foundation, like live on air. And we still couldn't get him to do it. He's the only guy ever that just like completely turned me down. Yeah, tough bounce. It's tough bounce. Window clerk. Speaking of something like 17. I won't let you down. Pinnacle sports book. Oh man, that was so good. That was actually really good. I wish I could have thought of that. There you go. One week out of the seat, all the sun is coming back in with fresh new ideas. Pinnacle is the world's sharpest sports book available to betters in Ontario. We often preach line shopping here on circles off and we're going to do that over the course of the football season. But you're round. And I think that's one of the most critical aspects of betting. I'd never consider betting without Pinnacle as one of my sportsbooks because of their every day competitive odds. We've shown that here on the circles off channel. I recorded a video on line shopping a week ago as well. And you can check that out right here on circles off. But they do have the most competitive odds in the entire industry. So bet smart bet pinnacle. They've been your trusted sportsbook for the past 25 years, 25 years in business for pinnacle sportsbook and use code hammer when signing up. It's a way of supporting the show. So do that. You must be 19 plus not available in the US. And as always, please play responsibly. Today's show is going to be an interesting one. I waited for you to get back to do this one in specific. So talk a little bit about this with G-Stack last week about the bet bash panel. You showed up at bet bash as well. You were in the room for the hostility between me and Ravel. Which by the way, this guy came after me on Twitter again this week. You spelled it? He posted a picture of him winning a bunch of parlays. And he's like, oh, see Pizzola? Like parlays aren't bad or whatever. Guy completely missed the point. Then proceeded to say that he was like a winning parlay better. It took probably about 30 seconds for someone to find his action network historical record. And Debate was trying to explain that there's no way to hack it on the action network app. Which is obviously ways to hack it on any app, of course. Definitely. He's like, there's no way it could possibly happen. Rob. And then he's like, you don't understand how a tracking app works. And you're just like, Darren, don't tell me how a tracking app works. It was so frustrating, man. It was actually so frustrating to deal with that. But there was another podcast, which talked about this bet bash panel. So on RJ Bell's Dream Preview, there was an episode called bet bash 2023, the after party panel. And today, what we're going to do on the show is we're going to listen to a lot of that specific episode and we're going to react to it. And I have not heard this. Johnny has not heard this. Our producer, Zach, listen to the whole thing. So he's going to steer this along and maybe we'll move and jump from here to there as time goes on. But the reason we're going to do this is because when this podcast came out, we got dozens upon dozens of messages about this specific pod and what we thought about it. And apparently, I mentioned by name, Johnny's mentioned by name. Oh, really? That's what they tell me. What do they even say about me? Well, I don't know. But judging by the cast here of who is part of this, we have RJ Bell, who's the owner of pregame. We have Steve Fesick, who appeared right here on Circles off. Episode link in the description below. I think one of our better episodes ever. AJ Hoffman, I have no idea who that is. Scott Sidenberg, I know exactly who that is. I'll explain. And Mackenzie Rivers. So the description of this is these five people discuss Betbash Las Vegas, very plain and simple. Before we get into it, I think it's important to preface just for the interest of being like, I don't want to say unbiased because there's generally biases. But just let the audience know what we think of these people, generally speaking. So Scott Sidenberg, as I mentioned, when I worked for Prediction Machine, I did a weekly hit with Scott Sidenberg on NBC Sports Radio. He eventually went over to Veeson, where I continued to do hits during the football season on his show on Veeson. Scott is a great guy. He would not an expert in betting. And I think he would definitely admit that. But he's really taken a fondness to that over the course of the years. I think he's a very real person who is obviously opinionated, as most people who are in radio are. You do like to hear our own voices. But I don't think he would be upset if I said he's not an expert in betting. RJ Bell, where do I start? I infamously tweeted in 2014, which Zach has actually pulled up on the screen here. You can mock RJ and Vegas all you want, but he provides some great info on a week to week basis. Good stuff here, and I link to a pregame forum. I've never deleted this. I don't delete tweets. So did you delete a couple tweets? Have I? No, I haven't deleted. If there might have been a time where I tried to scrub some stuff for one specific company, which I won't say, where I was trying to get hired by that company. But I think that's the only time I've ever deleted tweets. Fair enough? I listen. I don't delete tweets. I don't. And this is a reminder, because this one would have been out the door a long time ago. So you don't believe this now, or you do? I do not, because like, this was 2014. I was a recreational better. I was working in radio, like I mentioned, betting the NFL. I was very much like into the short-term trend stuff. Like this team is whatever and whatever coming off of a buy week. That was the type of stuff that mattered to me. And that's the kind of stuff that RJ was putting out at that time. I don't now believe that that was valuable at all. I was also interviewed two years later for an article that came out on Dead Spin. I believe the author was Ryan Goldberg. The article was called How America Is Favorite Sports Betting Expert. I don't know, turned. It was basically a hit piece on pregame, okay? And it was led by another better that went by Jacob Wheatley-Schuller. At that time, he was Vegas Watch on Twitter. But essentially, none of my stuff ever made it into that article. And it wasn't directed specifically at RJ Bell, but it was directed at the Philly Godfather at that time. But it was really eye-opening for a lot of people. In terms of how these betting businesses do, out-services do, and I think in that particular article, we'll link to the article in the description. We're not going to read through it. It's very long if you want to take your time to do it. But I think what the author did was broke down pregame's history in terms of here's who wins, here's who loses, and then here's how many win on top of the cost you have to pay for the subscription. Which was how many? I think it was one. But that was just variants. Yeah, I think it was one person, that one, with the subscription. So anyways, RJ, I believe then threatened litigation against deadspin and got some of the things in that article revoked, or he was able to put his own words into it as well. So if you do read it now, there's also commentary from RJ within there. But to say that he's a polarizing individual, would be understating it. There's definitely a group of people, Contrarianville, known as Seville. A lot of people who give us negative comments for a show or whatever doesn't matter to me, but that hate RJ Bell. So there's a community that just despises the guy and thinks he's the worst person on Earth. I'm not saying I believe that. I don't hate a lot of people. I don't think that there's some things with his business that are absolutely not right. But I don't think all touts are scum either. So there's like a fine line. Steve Fesik, we shared our thoughts on Fesik. Again, there's people out there that despise Steve Fesik. I'm not one of those people. Do I think everything he does is right? Absolutely not. I think that there's a lot of conflict with the pick route that he's taken. But I don't hate on the individual himself. So it is a group of people that or core audience would probably want us to be very harsh on them. I'm just stating the facts here. I'm going to speak my mind as if I didn't know any of these five people essentially. Yeah, for mine, I don't know any of them personally. I met Fesik for like one minute at Bet Bash. I was actually hoping to talk to him more, but never got the chance like it's crazy busy there. Like constantly moving around getting pulled in all different directions. So yeah, no, but I don't know. I don't even really know RJ Bellov. So you know who he is. RJ and Vegas, but I can't say I've listened to any of this stuff as well. So we'll see it'll be an organic reaction from me. That's for sure. Okay, Zach, let's hit it. Stay Imagine a siren, a emergency edition of the pod and we've got the man that everyone's talking about. Release he's amongst the crowd that's being discussed. Steve Fezik who was on a panel down at Serca. There was a Bet Bash event. And somehow someone canceled and he got on it. Was it the beat team? Is that the fairway to say the money? Yeah, the money came in against this panel being popular as soon as the line-ups got reported and Know this is the best panel by The panel was it was a Rodney King echoing of why can't we all get along? Twitter wars. Why can't we all get along? You know, I could have made this real simple and could have skipped the panel because most sports bettors that make money or almost make money our assholes That is pretty accurate. I mean we can just say that Let's wrap up boys. I'll meet you down at the bottom. What's wild is how he'd looked fed straight in the eye when he said that like Didn't feel bad about it at all like oh, don't we all know that we all know that guys who make money betting sports and win super contest particularly Multiple are asked no, I didn't say that I said that's a unique group With an underbelly of sweetness that is an obvious it takes years to say Here's what we're gonna do though There what if you haven't heard we're gonna set the scene now. This is one of those You know, there's an old saying why are the fights so tough in academia where there's like some professor of Archaeology that's mad at some other professor and it's so intense and The answer to that question is often well, that's all they've got what you have is people who If you're good you could have done something else It's very few people I know that really win at sports betting that would have been and couldn't have been a lawyer Couldn't have been a professor Usually their IQ is sufficient. Would you agree with that fact? Yeah, the bar is so high and requires such a level of competence to win Significantly at sports betting so you're complimenting yourself right now. Yeah, okay So you're saying to be me to be me if you're gonna make six figures a year betting sports Means you should be able to bet seven figures if you'd gone to Wall Street or something else and Yeah, I mean that's there's some element of truth to that. I mean honestly. No, there's there's honestly not I disagree with that Okay, in like in the in the sense of Well, I mean, I don't do that because I can't get a higher paying job than I make off sports But I think that there's a lot of people who take less just just to bet sports than they could be making elsewhere Since like what do you it's like comparing a different thing in life though like it's basically like saying oh if you were a A doctor you could have became you were making 300 something thousand as a doctor You could have become a lawyer and make 400,000 like yeah, it's a different job though Like you want to be a doctor you want to be a lawyer you want to be whatever like it's true And actually the path of lots of sports betters is starting with a full-time job and then just quitting that because they've now exceeded that income Yeah, like personally like I would never want to be a lawyer like that's not my style Like I wouldn't want to just don't not passionate about that. Don't want to do it right wouldn't like if you told me hey you can make Whatever make 10 million dollars right now you'll be a give you 10 million right you'll be a dentist for us your life Probably like nah fuck that I'm with you genuinely. Yeah, I know I think I'm kind of with you It's got even more money than that matters, but I think they're just setting the stage now for whatever conversation that we're gonna get into Go ahead suck rating scheme that wasn't even gambling related that Phil was somehow involved in You know, it's interesting that anyone can be diminished like that if you go unconventional If you don't go with society says be a doctor be a lawyer be whatever that has a Credentials in front of it and you better tow the line or we'll kick you out of the club But if you're in this club, you know you tow the line Well, guys like feds doesn't like that wild men like that Well, you know what most people who don't like tow in the line They are humans still most of them and they want to be affirmed Well, how do you get affirmed in sports batting? You can win super contests But there's a reason people a lot of pros hate the feds is one two of those because it does affirm him And it's pause pause pause It's yes, it's a game of skill, but the amount of like that's not a different thing. It doesn't affirm anything It actually it actually doesn't affirm anything like I would like the guy who won the circa millions contests last year Yeah, could be a losing sports better. We don't even know that yeah He might be a winner. He might be a loser But that he won the circa millions like I'm not staking that guy to bet this year That's what I'm saying. Yeah, I wouldn't stake him to win the super contest this year because he won last year So this is already a disagreement for me as well like I don't think that I think maybe football contests over a long period of time. There's like he didn't win twice Whatever like I'm sure he's playing optimal strategy like he's picking. He's picking games, right? But like that's It's not that big of you different time different number of entrants. Yeah, there's like a lot of things It's a it's also a stale line pool like you just pick the odds like it's nothing to do with market reading There's no bet sizing. There's no positions. No opposition like Regular betting is way more of an indicator of skill than winning a supercon Agreed. I'm not trying to diminish the feats of winning contests by the way I'm just saying that this does not affirm Anyone as being like a great better. I've never won a super contest. So I've never been in the supercon I've never won I've never come within 10 games of winning one of the contests. Are you in this year? Yeah, circa mill Circa mill to the max. I got the five entries and the ten survivors. Yeah See you on the I like to piss away money. I'll see you on the car I'm not on the piss away money. Do you need me on the ninth green at nine the super the circa millions this year So I'll say this for everyone I truly believe bait. There will there should be an overlay Derek Stevens former friend of the pod He has Well, former guest of the pod current friend friend Derek It's guaranteeing up eight millie prize pool Doesn't look like they're gonna get to the eight mill so there will be some overlay also circa millions So many people forget to put in the picks. Yeah, so many people forget to put the picks in I'm saying right now based on the prize structure. There's already no big Right, so technically if you randomize The fact that there's an overlay plus people forget the picks if you just use a randomizer each week like go online be like randomize like Whatever mark each game one to 32 or something each team and then just like randomize it five numbers Use those plus EV for the year. It very well could be the case I last year looked like it wasn't gonna fill and there was a ton that came in late So it's still possible, but it didn't fill last year anyways. It was very close Small overlay and they raised it from six mill to or five or six mill to eight mill So Unless it grows another, you know, yes This guy grow. Oh, you know decent percentage chance I think and plus the entries are max at five. Yeah, survivors 10. Yeah, you can only do five super contest We're promoting the contest go sign up if you're in base. I think it's a good value But also circus guarantee a lot people do these these pools and stuff especially around here like cash pools They'll be like ought to 50 grand prize It's all good. These ones are eight million prize pool for if you win the survivor contest Obviously, it's harder to win entry cost thousand bucks. You ask but like Man, that's fun. That's real life changing money. That's fine. It's fun Yeah, a great fun and you're not even getting bad value like they don't take a a big on that So even if it goes so let's say eight million But let's say a million people sign up. It's not like the prize is only eight million Yeah, and the prize will be whatever the thing is like circuit doesn't take a big so totally agree Anyways, when I win. I'm not retiring. Just you know Rob. Oh, you know what is negative VV though Save it. No, no, no, no, no, I need to come up right now. Okay. What is negative VV heard from a buddy of Zax? Oh No, you fucked up something with the insurance. No, okay This guy you entered in circa millions. Yeah This guy paid 35% for his proxy service. Oh That's tough man. What how much you pay for your proxy Okay, hold on I use your proxy Maddie Simal, but how many entries did you buy? One and how much money did you pay? For the proxy we got the Saturday extended one. So whatever that oh, so it's it's more Buddy, yeah, because you can you can wait to so a lot of the proxy services. No, I know, but how much did you pay? So it's a thousand for the entry. How much for the proxy? Uh Well, I don't know what it is. I was told it was 350 bucks. Okay, I don't know for sure But I will say every proxy has a service it list is what it's become But you either pay for your like the They're charged more for the extended sign-up time where you can get right all in one entry and paid 350 bucks If that's the correct number for the proxy so you pay a thousand for the entry you pay 1350 for the entry There's a EV down the drain on the proxy for one entry. If you did that's how that's Canadian though. Obviously All right, sorry. That's like one dollar us That's also not 30% though Those three hundred fifty dollars then you need some receipts above 30% If it was three because a thousand dollars can to connect us to Canadian is 13. So what is it 300 Canadian 350 Canadian? I can pull I can pull up the exact receipts of how much All right, you paid 26% fake sorry my bad the nose Canadian vs US still though anything above That's it's too much fake There you pay you you can't be getting one entry like pull it with someone get the same proxy And also the worst part is this one of the most negative EV thing Ask around buddy. You don't have any friends. You couldn't ask me. I would go you free proxy done easy I did ask around that's how I ended up with the proxy that I have Who did you ask? Yes me So there is your first mistake. Well, listen here's the thing I'm I'm only gonna ever advocate for someone who has never ever made a mistake for me Or anyone that I know this is the issue so proxy services are a whole another topic of conversation But there's always every year a nightmare story with a proxy service now I know what you're gonna say about your proxy service not like a technical Proxy potentially might be a better that we mutually know that would just make the picks on his behalf But even then it's like there's nothing There's no protection on his end You know what I'm saying is there's yeah, of course, but what I'm saying is this What good is that having a full-fledged insurance policy if you're paying more than the cost of the insurance Like if you're paying more than what's worth you're paying 350 bucks. Okay, again Canadian US is about 260 for the listeners here Paying a thousand bucks entry for the contest. Yeah, 260 bucks proxie. Yeah, obviously listen It doesn't add up. Sorry. Is what is I don't mean to chirp you if it's less than that all good But that's those are the numbers. I was told that's what that's why I'm going off that decision if you pay 25 bucks And I'll take it back. I'll say fine This I will guess that this was a heat of the moment thing for you You had like one last day in Vegas. Well, you need a proxy to sign up with you So like if you don't have any go go right or call they're all there. They're like they're they're they're hanging out there at the sports book Yeah, anyways had the booth set up that day, and then you told you said that the this is your proxy and then I followed him on Twitter And he was the only like the he was there He was the guy there early bird gets the worm good on that proxy. You got the money Well, I was there for you won't make any mistakes. No, no, no He's not gonna make any mistakes, but nor will the regular proxy you could just check it That's just not true though Because lots of them you input your picks through a website the website goes down like this is what happened a couple years ago I'm not gonna say who it was, but a website goes down and everyone's picks don't go in for a week Like that's that's horseshit right like you never want that to have of course You definitely don't want that to happen, but what I'm saying is like this guy will literally message you If you don't send your picks and he'll be like list like he'll text you and be like dude I'm at the counter right now like you you have three minutes like let's let's call me let's figure it out Like that's the type of guy he is like let me just also set the scene for what was going on for me there So just excuses for making a bad decision. I didn't go there to planning to sign up Friday I was working the basically the entire time until 6 p.m. Vegas time then I went out with the guys that I was there working with still not planning on doing Millions or Survivor and then at like 11.45 p.m. Friday night Vegas time I get a text from someone asking me if I want to do a pool do with the survivor And I said sure Sunday morning or Saturday morning I get a text from someone else asking if I want to do the millions So wait, are you in millions or survivor? Well, I want a one in one. Yeah. Okay. Is the 350 per entry or was it for both cumulative No, there's four the it that is four survivor or four millions only survivor is like significantly cheaper the survivor proxy was significantly cheaper You could have just asked me Negative the move of the week Five hours to get a proxy find the proxy meet up with them Fill out the papers pay and do this because of how light last minute it was because I was leaving that night And the proxy was leaving the sportsbook at 4 p.m. Sorry, I'm just gonna Google how long does it take to text someone? Is it under over five hours? How's my response time on text? He did he for in fairness. He did message me. No, usually take me if I would I wouldn't change my messaging to him For what because I know so many people who've gotten fucked in these contests Just because they picked a bad proxy or they relied on a friend to put in their picks So yes, he's killing his Evie There's also proxies that won't take anything up front But they'll take a percentage of winnings where the Evie is even worse on those in a lot of things Evie in those is better than the 350 I think depends on the percentage is not 350 I mean if it's yeah, it depends on percentage also the Thousand was at the time of conversion 1500 What do you mean like it was 1500 dollars Canadian Tenter? No, that's impossible. I have the receipts Oh my god, tell me you paid a massive big on usd to cat as well Probably did exactly credit card or whatever So your bank you're probably your banking the credit card the exchange rates of dollar 36 you bet a dollar 50 Yeah, or you already could have got two entries Instead of one Exactly, it's it we're running this topic now. I'm gonna come off looking like an ass on this thing But seriously bro next time only lesson here is message around ask me help you always ask friends for help anyone listening right now I did do something. I did though. I did ask friend for help. I got help all right So for anyone you just disagreed with the person that it was no, I have to find the conversation I have to find the conversation If you still think that that was a good move Power to you guys that you think it was a good move to pay probably 1800 bucks for a Canadian for which for the equivalent What you should have been paying a hundred you should have been paying 1300 and 60 on the nose Canadian is correct you paid upwards of 1800 bucks total to get this done It you've paid more for your lesson. I have but fair enough. I do have the receipts. It was Zach Phillips How do you set up up via proxy for the circle contests? I said you need someone to do it for you. I use Maddie Simeau at Vegas Maddie on Twitter. You put okay. Thanks I don't know. I don't know how we're gonna get to a resolution here disappointing. I highly recommend Maddie Simeau again I will if you want to do one entry in Vegas for a super contest I would highly recommend not converting your cash via data card that I wouldn't also recommend I would highly convert not converting your cash via credit card at the ATM and then using at Vegas Maddie for the one entry But I'm sure he's reliable. If you're getting the 10 full suite bang. Yeah. Okay. Now your big branches lower like it's fine, but Anyways, don't we have to this interview Where did we go here? Where do we get no that's that's already my negative VV move over the week We really skipped a segment. I'm done for today. I'm not giving another negative VV Okay, that's fair. We just did a look things a little out of order. Hey, it's totally fine. Hey honestly love you guys I know no arm apologize. No, no, no, no, I wasn't apologizing. I love you guys. I just want the best exact trying it We try to help you he has been trying to teach you Like plus EV for a long time But in all aspects of life you've applied it to sports bed But in other aspects of life you have currently failed No, no, he's in currently fail. He's been doing he's been doing great. This is a guy's the best kid. I'm just saying Ask for help anyone on the camera if anyone listening to this or watching this If you're gonna look to do something right away. You're gonna look to do something new I know we message Rob But the best thing you can do is have a network of people where you can message four or five guys Hey, how do I get this reservation at this place? Hey, I'm looking to go here. I'm in this city Imagine being in a new city having five friends in that city being able to ask them Hey, what's the best thing for here? I've been taking that in network super important But you have to actually leverage it and then on the other end if somebody if somebody messages you Make sure you're providing value giving out the stuff if someone messages you's okay What do I do for this? How do I edit this thing on YouTube? You don't be like oh, well, it's true Yeah, I charge a hundred bucks this not help someone out and someone help you out It's it's a lot of the same principles. We preach with sports betting. One is the line shopping obviously You obviously in sports betting. It's a little different because no matter what you're getting like the same bet You know, I'm saying it's not the same services or whatever. Yeah, exactly. You don't What you what I mean fair enough the second thing is we preach not waiting to the last minute as well And that is a could be a A catastrophic mistake sometimes because you put yourself in a you know, you don't have those options a lot of times when you wait The last minute the line moves the limits are way higher the market's more efficient And he's learning a little bit about the efficient market Yeah, I get that I don't know no more excuses you admit admit it was a mistake. Yeah paid too much move on win the contest prove me wrong That's it win it and then be like oh, well, is that 350? Yeah, well I don't feel so good about with the chances of winning the millions because of Whose partners one third of my team? Yeah, but you guys lay it with Luke on his team. Well, you could go for the booby prize Then yeah, no, no, he he's not gonna listen to this So I already told talk to the other guy in the thing and I said look We'll submit the picks the first two weeks You and I sit down. We reevaluate where where we're out after the first two weeks if things aren't going well We just get Luke's picks every week for the rest of it and then we just go from there and see what we're doing It's good move what it is. That's not a bad move. Yeah, all right bad move back to the pod here Horse batting now, right? There's no credentials exactly given out based upon you know doing these Internships or years of study. Yeah, exactly. So usually it's hey, he's a professor at Harvard, right? You can look at I think his name is is it Cornell West Uh McKenzie you probably know the the guy he's running for president now. Yeah, Cornell. What's going on? I'm a fan of his presentation is awesome generally. He's a very bombastic political guy He's I think running for president now, you know as a third party But he was I think a Princeton for a long time But when a guy comes on talking a little loud and they say professor at Princeton You got to accept good. There's something there Well, there's no such thing now. That's why back in the day Sports batting usually the voices of it were bookmakers because it's for one second So I can tell you where this is gonna go already, right? This isn't the argument of like who can police the sports betting space if there are no like Accol how do we determine who the best betters are? Because what he's saying right now is like, okay, if you go to other industries. This is where it's gonna go This is where it goes. This is where okay If if other industries have like certificates or you go to school to become a medical doctor or your professor or you whatever There's there's ways for them like like there's a levels of expertise, right in the sports betting space You don't necessarily have that this is the the common point that's brought up a lot of times Um, and this is kind of like if anyone is upset with the way that I handle myself or how I call people out I often get like well, who are you? Who are you? Who says that you're allowed to determine what's right and what's wrong? And my answer to that is I don't think that they're I'm determining that. I'm just stating my opinion On what I think and this is coming from someone who does this as a profession Can anyone prove that or do they know how much income I make? No But what it tends to happen in the betting community is people here of one another or they Here like who's a stiff who not to work with who you should work with who's one betting this stuff I could tell you who's got the best WNBA stuff and best NBA stuff Even for people that I haven't worked with before just through word of mouth. So it's kind of like a community in a sense If that's where this is going, but like this is often what happens And I'm getting way too ahead of myself here But RJ Bell runs pregame This is a conversation amongst pregame experts. They're selling a product The hammer circles off. We're not technically selling a product But we're still trying to monetize in our own way So people are always like well, you're always selling a product. Yeah, I said that's what I've said It's like a while back But even if you just have your own Twitter profile. Yeah, it's a tweet. You're selling something You're selling something because you you're garnering an audience which garners attention Which gives you credibility to allow you to later sell yourself or something or whatever Even if you're selling yourself as like an application to for someone to work with you or like you or whatever So okay, agreed agreed, but he's he's right. Yes. Okay. I'd like to see where this goes Zach because this this is a very common criticism of the space right now Doesn't matter how much they know you in that article you can say mgms But in truth those guys other than bookmaking don't know as much as the batters do typically So my point here is If you're not validated You're not credentialed and you have any ego you want your mom to be proud of you The only way to do that is to gain notoriety So what you have is a lot of people on social media all acting like they're above caring That all very much want to have enough followers or back in the day get a blue check mark or whatever to validate them And the theme that we're going to explore throughout Fez's tiktok he's going to do now with what happened is Ask yourself does this help validate the person saying it Because in almost every case you can almost guess their position By what they could say that would most validate the way they act That's fair I think like the argument that I'm more likely to promote You know line shopping and responsible betting and doing all these things because it has a more tangible impact on me I think that's fair Generally speaking It's hard to separate like your biases especially when you're involved with businesses from You know everything else, but This is This is an interesting conversation. Let's let's hear what Fez has to say in regards down Reval was going to say one thing and it's going to validate him and Pursuit Fez is going to say typically what validates him just like humans do And we should all know what the motivations are here It's not always well in the abstract what I believe it Okay, so this is this is kind of like what bothers me about the whole thing And this is the kind of what I was saying on the bet bash panel that you were at We're very clear about our motivations Right and I'm not I'm not I'm not saying like I'm a saint Whatever You know we run businesses myself and Johnny right we were on the hammer we run bet stamp we are We are trying to grow our businesses. I think the issue in the space Is where like greed Exceeds ethics so to speak right like there's a lot of people out there So my whole thing was misrepresentation is a real problem. So Like With our businesses We've been very upfront with people right pinnacles a sponsor of this show I love pinnacle I've used pinnacle since I've been betting for a long time I'm happy to promote a product that I stand behind When we're in the affiliate business we send traffic to sportsbooks. We've been very clear That we make money off of that that is our that is how we monetize our business We're very upfront about that That doesn't mean that we try to send literally as much traffic possible to sportsbooks at all times or will promote anything Like there's an ethical line at some point or another and I think that's where a lot of this gets blurred And that's kind of what I was saying to rebel like obviously you guys action network you have a subscription base People can subscribe. You're in affiliate as well. I'm not saying you can't do those things Just do them in a way that's morally responsible Don't have people coming on air and representing themselves as experts like rebel right now in his mind Like based off the tweet. He sent me this week. He thinks he's an expert in the betting space Like he thinks he's become an expert That's where we get into like dangerous territory in my opinion So okay, who's gonna police this who can say what's right and wrong? But like talking about parlay's is bad for betters You can't consistently win at rob pizola with the the The sponge bob type of uh, you're an idiot Yeah, you're an idiot characterization and posting his parlay winners over the course of a week And it's like dude You've completely like lost the plot You won you won some parlay's on one day like you've lost you've lost the plot and this is what's Scary and dangerous in my opinion. So that that's kind of my Things like clearly dude. He doesn't even know what a parlay is then if you say like betting for this just it's Parlay betting is literally just betting and then betting more if your thing wins. It's the same. We've explained this a million times like A parlay is on a revolutionary thing You're just doubling your bet amount and rolling it over which is a very irresponsible for a recreational better Agreed and that's kind of the point I'm getting across and like listen I say this all the time on the show as well right you want to bet parlay's go bet parlay's go do whatever you want to do It's your own money, but just at least be aware of the Of what you're doing when you're betting a parlay on top of that I would never give out a parlay myself or talk about teasers like I do on on pizza buffet On Sunday mornings without providing some context as to what those bett types are and like the sportsbook hold and stuff like that There's there's an opportunity just to to air that stuff And people can make their own decisions at the end of the day, but 99% of the population they don't get this stuff like look at my look back to my tweet from 2014 the RJ Bell one right like that's me I don't get that. I don't get that at that time Maybe that's like what incentivizes me now or motivates me. It's like I don't want people to go down the same path that I did for all those years but Yeah, I mean, it's like I don't think this is like an apples to apples. Let's hear more. It's ethical. It's usually what is gonna make me seem better than everyone else All right fast give us the tiktok all right So the panel was Moderated by Sammy P out of Chicago, but the big conflict was between You kind of wonder about the industry that the moderator is Sammy P out of Chicago Panavitch and in Tovich Out of Chicago sounds like it's like I can't spell what I can't pronounce actually out of Boston now you work for you works for nissen He's a betting analyst for nissen. See now he's validated. Yes. All right, but really it started out guns ablaze in here with Revelle going up against Rob Pizzola and Rob basically calling out Revelle so both are on the panel. They're both on the panel and saying you know what you know You're going out and you're you're giving out all this betting advice that is not respected amongst the expert sports Veterans and giving yourself out. Where does that? Where does that? Council meet the experts The is this like a poet is it like the wise guy smoking the cigars together? Hope gets elected Is this is your way out of smoke comes up in the like I'm just wondering because right there with what and again I'll be honest with you. I like Rob. I mean, I've had personal dealings with them. I listen to some or I listen to a part He's on the matchbook pod He is quite sanctimonious. He has a strong opinion about right and wrong And that and he seems to be the arbiter of that opinion meaning that what who's accepted and not who sharp who's not He's in that club that's deciding it Pause in my in my viewpoint. I'm not this this is can can be how it's perceived from the outside in I merely state my opinions period I don't expect every single person to adopt those opinions. I just want to put that out there like that's I mean, phasic didn't do a great job of giving a recap of honestly like what this The the the thing was so maybe yeah, maybe he's not providing like a ton of context here But I'm you know again the issue with rebel was misrepresentation and like Coming across as if you have subject matter expertise that you don't and again Yeah, like we're can't all meet in the back not all you least I'm just stating my opinion That's all that's coming down. Yeah for those who weren't at the panel. I think rob rob came across is basically this He was like it's okay. You want to be a losing better. It's it's fine Like not everyone's gonna be that and it's still okay for you to be in the space making content doing all these things But it's not okay to represent yourself as a pro better who's gonna help win if you follow my picks and also be a losing better That's how like rob came across you mentioned a few other people in industry as well, but back to the interview Yeah, but and I just want to make it explicitly clear like I don't think that I'm the person that can like is Deeming okay, you're a winner. You're a loser. You know, you deserve to have a platform. You don't deserve like I have those opinions But I don't expect that the entire industry is gonna adopt them like that's not what this is about Yeah, isn't that interesting. Yeah, so he had consensus so Dave Cherapan who was on the panel Vegas Why is guy pretty much agreed with rob was saying Jeff Benson who runs the circus sports book He pretty much agreed as well Then action network was pushing the envelope towards Giving themselves out as an expert providing expert picks even though Darren Revelle was like well, this is entertainment and we like to give these the same game parlays and the like and I bet everything that I think that I give out So a couple of quotes here from the panel Where Darren Revelle admitted he's part of the problem. No, really See again, Rufus put out a Twitter thread that says like Darren Revelle. I'm part of the problem That was like taken out of context. Yeah, he never actually said so everybody picked up on this and that that never happened So to Darren Revelle's credit He said it sarcastically and it was like as a part of a longer sentence So anyways keep keep the old scots going to keep reading out quotes. I think here or whatever Yes, that was just the initial quote now hold on a second now if we were doing this against fat first of all me and Darren Revelle Our nemesis is is is is this point. I used to like Darren I fact the first TV hit I ever did was for him at CNBC like 10 plus years ago Well, I didn't know that yeah at some point I mean he became very The reality is and we've seen this a bunch now people who don't know sports betting as experts are stepping in the industry Now that's something that we've really strived when we brought in non-full-time sports bettors like aji like scut We make it very you know when they the prior careers Well for you your prior career was in the most recent was in the media for sports betting Yes, but then prior to that NBC etc etc So neither of them are Going to say I'm like fat. I'm betting what fuzz is betting I like that. I think having other experts come in like for example our baseball pod On Monday. It's taping Tuesday. It's released. We got a former professional baseball player Josh towers and he really knows Baseball and we think okay, and he he's been around betting. He's a vagus guy, but he's not a professional batter Okay, so I don't mind stuff like that we do this at the hammer by the way like we bring on Eric Eager of sumer sports as a football Analyst he's not a pro better We never sell them as a pro better. We just sell them as a football analyst is what she is VP of analytics for sumer sports We don't claim that he's a pro better or anything like that and the reason why we have him on On forward progress on youtube go and hit that subscribe button We've got lots of NFL content coming up this year But the reason we have him on is because I learned a lot from him and like he provides context that Is helpful for bettors So I have no issues with that But it's kind of different like if I go to pregame right now a J Hoffman who's part of this broadcast got side in berg Like these guys are selling picks on the platform You know you have rj right here saying like these guys aren't experts sports bettors. I don't know You know, I don't know like isn't that not like super contradictory Like that he's calling them not pros and they're selling picks. Yeah I mean if the records are public and stuff like he anyone could sell anything It's just a matter of being transparent to be honest. Yeah, well okay So the there are the so there's like the marketing records that are here You can click into picks on any one of these guys and you can see A full every pick ever But you have to do it in such a convoluted way that I wonder if it's intentional or not Like I can see the last 100 picks for someone But if I had to if I wanted to search from like January 2021 to now I cannot do that I literally have to click every single day in between And see the record by picks by day picks by day So it would be very very very challenging for me To go out and do something like like get a guy's record. Yeah, the power of like technology Yeah, but I don't mind like I don't mind if people brand Or like people produce content that aren't experts like I don't I don't maybe I've I've been Like poorly communicating this All along I just think the onus is on the person to represent themselves as who they are Rather than something that they're not I think you you push the ethical boundary When you start to do things that you're not like if Eric eager came on Every single week and we're like listen to Eric. He's this great professional sports better like that's crossing the line in my opinion That's not what he is that's not how we want to represent him that doesn't mean that you know I'm not telling people who to throw out on air everyone has some sort of You know draw could be entertainment it could be whatever Just be real with the audience like that's the one ask That's the biggest frustration for me in terms of pet peeve So I mean, I think the lot like for for RJ to say that I think the lines are kind of blurred with pregame in the sense that okay, you know He's telling AJ and Scott we hired you not because you guys are sports betting experts but because like You can contribute to a conversation type of thing But they're selling picks on the site And maybe the counter is like well all the picks are there for people to see and they can decide what they want and maybe that's a fair counter But I don't know just fumes a little bit uh Contradictory let's see what else they got to say on Pizzola. Yeah To me that's a scum if a person's trying to feed We can always just find it but see what they got to say about Pizzola different level of choice when it's the gutter or scam Versus middle class or upper middle class, but you just got to scam those are the people I disrespect the most you know Personally, so I was always gonna be able to make a living I don't think ethically I would have been okay with anything to make a little bit extra than I couldn't feel good about myself So, you know, I'll just be candid. That's why I didn't even think about it, but so we have that with the uh We'll call it the boiler room outbound calls now what you guys mentioned next the flash the bling Listen, no names here, but we know a guy says that probably the most mild mannered probably the lowest Monthly not where he doesn't spend money and He was working for a company that was pretty flashy for a while and they rented him what was it like shark skin shoes He had he this is the guy that literally had a 18-year-old car running And they had him rent in a Lamborghini. I mean, so not do we think that guy's evil Yeah, that's the question Yes, I've had a guy Renting stuff in general Like this in general just a shit sleazy marketing. Okay, renting things in general. Yes And giving the like renting things is completely fine. Yes for the most part is fine If you want to rent a Ferrari drive it around for the day. Enjoy it. What's wrong with that? You got you got the ability to experience driving a frog Renting it and then giving the appearance to others that you own it for the purposes of marketing something is Very common however, like yeah, it's it is it's just a marketing place This is when profit becomes more important than ethics and you don't care that this isn't you You just want people to perceive you and as this now listen. This is social media in general Right like look at people's Instagrams and stuff like that You're not posting stuff of like oh look at like most people aren't like oh look how shitty my life is or whatever It's the highlight reel, but also sometimes it's not even the highlight reel. It's like fake Yes, but so like listen that like there's an extension of this That just exists because we're like we're conditioned to do this by social media like you have lots of of points in the day That aren't the finest hours for you over the course of a day that are not going to make it to your Instagram reel or whatever So are you misrepresenting yourself in that case? Maybe like I don't know like this is it's a very Different conversation, but I think this is like more around businesses And especially when you're getting into the into the whole territory of trying to turn a profit So like is that a scummy move? Yes, if I'm going to go out and like Rent like or buy alligator skin shoes that I'm going to return at some point Um or a Rolex and like that's not mine or whatever or a fake Rolex Exactly. It's a real right like that. That's just shady. That's like bullshit is what it is. So yes sells it sells I know that's the stuff that sells in the pick selling right now. Yeah Is not even really the record It's the whole Like look how look how sick my life is like a pure stuff. I have yes like you want this stuff By the picks yes It's weird look at look at look remember we did that tiktok reaction episode where Zach wanted you can have a stroke I could see the nerve in his neck with the Jeep Rubicon was the car though was the comedy of that thing Is that like again? It's not a bad car, but But to flex the flex it from the passenger seat of the car like it was his own Yeah, you know, I'm saying there's his mother's car something like that But that that's the type of stuff that We can see that here's the difference right we can see that 10 years ago me could have easily been duped by that And it's a cycle because people can be duped by it Then it's just going to happen more and more because there's enough people out there that are Are willing to do that But again, I'm trying to say to a million times in this episode for me It's making sure that profit does not exceed Ethics I literally had an 18-year-old car rumbling into the lot and they had him rent in a Lamborghini I mean, so not do we think that guy's evil I mean, that's the question best for every set again We've all been I've had a guy by the loan $10,000 too because he's like Hey, you know, I'm gonna be at the camera's gonna be rolling. I need to be able to show that I'm making bets You know, can you help me out with a little like, you know, so just for today? No, it's like 10 years ago. Okay Hey, when was the cameras wrong? What was the event? I don't want it disclosed. Okay. All right, so So in this story just to if you're keeping score fads low He had so much that he could have his money for that you were involved in the shoot too, right? No, actually, it was not okay. Well, when I was on ballers, and I had that big water bill was my hand was that yours? Can you come down with some money? That was the rocks. I tell you that I love love that Because that was my idea. I just showed up. I go you think he's a good prop. He goes. Yeah I don't think I don't know how bad I think that is I think that the very premise of Instagram Is misrepresenting your reality. Yes, right isn't there's all kinds psychological studies how everyone's judging themselves against this fake Perception and that's they all think they fall short. Yeah So if everyone's using a filter or makeup like if that's like someone dressing up in fancy clothes is Just like an ugly girl putting on enough makeup to come off come across. It's pretty and judging girls again No, I'm just I'm just saying that that that happens and it's like no one says oh she's a terrible person because she wears makeup She's just trying to present herself in a certain way. We got a supervisor and because so there's a lot of things here, but We also have to talk about like the nature of the industry which people just gloss over all the time right We're in an industry that leads to a lot of addiction problems You know what I'm saying like someone putting on makeup to make them You know to sell more it's a day-to-day part of life It's not gonna send someone down a path Of like they're gonna be living on the streets because they bought too many nail polishes or or perfumes or whatever You know what I'm saying Sports betting is very different because there's an addiction element associated with it unlike 99.9% of the industries out there, right? I'd say more industries are The addiction focus and you realize if you really think very possible. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, there's there's a there's an element to that When you be careful in sports, but yeah, so like I Again, you can you can have like these debate these debates where you're just like using all of these examples And it's like well do you call this like misleading? Do you call in a lot of cases? It's all misrepresentation But in some cases, it's much less harmful But honestly, Robert my my honest opinion like it's like this in every industry once you realize it and you really start to see Very possible like here's a here's an example. Okay. I'm not I don't even want to shit on like specific brands Okay, but let's say like just to keep it general A soda soda pop sure, okay? Yeah The marketing in that soda soda It's so predatory towards you drinking that and getting essentially addicted to that product and continuously consuming that product That is bad for you. Okay, that's one simple example that you might be see But like now truly watch those ads and see how it isn't like how they're portrayed and how deep they go into the mind And that's one industry. I just gave a simple example not to shit on you come Well, there's lots but they're like think about the commercials to kids the cereal commercials hundreds thousands exactly So when we're talking about marketing. I said this a while for a while like people think sports betting is brutal They're like oh, it's all all these touts all predatory like I thought that as well when I was younger now I realize Every single industry you won't find a single industry that doesn't have these exact same tactics is exact same marketing boy the whole Get a six pack in 30 days. That's all it is. Yeah It's a good point. I mean listen. I'm not Like I've never worked in marketing. I've never really thought about this Like I built my own brand my own personal brand like how did I get to whatever following? I got on Twitter by like live tweeting football games and just or getting myself being yourself being myself So that so I come from it with a little bit of a different perspective because And again, this is not to like make me seem like a saint or whatever But I've always felt it unnatural or uncomfortable to sell myself as something that I'm not It's just not me. I mean, that's just the honest to God truth It's just not me. So when I see other people do it It's very hard for me to resonate with that and I naturally associate it with being scummy in some way Whether that's right or wrong and again, I'm opinionated He might think my opinions are way out in left field and that's totally fine I mean how many people approach me after this bet bash panel that said great job And how many people approach me that said like oh you're a hypocrite because you do the exact same thing Or I'm like you know expand on that tell me more and they do I'm like, okay, that's fair Here's my counter argument to that But like they might not buy it and that's and that's totally fine But I don't like comparing the other industries And maybe that's just me at a personal level because of my experiences And maybe you're right like a lot of this is just maybe way more harmful than I realized all I'm saying is like in general People typically tend to be super negative right in anything like you're you're more negative than positive Hang around negative people you're in a community of let's say on Twitter with super negative And then what happens is you think that the stuff you see is the worst the worst possible stuff But oh, yeah, I guess all I'm trying to say really is like in terms of like predatory marketing in sports betting Yes, it exists it exists anywhere though And and the amount of people that complain about it and think that like guys like oh Rob doesn't know this needs this And they hate him and they're or like even RJ Physics the worst because does this like Man, everyone's just a human being. They're all trying to make money. They're all trying to do something It's not it's not that badly. It's not the end of the world like I if people were to just actually truly understand the Downward spiral of the negativity. Yep, they're in. I don't think they would even care this much about this stuff It's very that's a very bad look at phesic and like disguised a scam or whatever Yeah, then they go buy a kickcat bar at the store and they didn't realize And then they go buy a Ford focus the motor trans truck of the year and they don't realize that's the same shit I just happened just in a different scale and sure One might be more clear because it's like man to man and you understand the industry But you know those car companies manufacture these random awards and all these things that they can say that the number one This this this this this and then they market to you and they have all these commercials or whatever for you to go buy the things the same thing It's hard for me to get out of that the mindset that that it isn't the same thing I can I can understand the argument. I know that like for me Like buying a pick from Vegas Dave to me is like Like what Vegas Dave is doing is a million times worse in my mind That's not to say that it is. It's just hard for me to get over that and maybe listen You know his his is like a one of the nut low So you don't compare Vegas Dave to like one of those big Cola companies. Yeah, but you can compare Vegas Dave to like Someone else who's set like just scamming in a different industry selling like fake jewelry or something like that You know what I mean? I think what you have in my personal case is someone who's very vocal about things opinionated I will share those likely lots people just like stew and they keep it to themselves I'll never say anything like I'm not that person never have been so you have like these personality traits and then Me just going through the life experience of Being 16 and like losing money betting on sports and then getting to be 19 and 20 and finding a bunch of toast and thinking that Oh, I'm just gonna play these guys free picks and then the good ones I'm gonna buy their packages and I'm gonna be set and then like losing money that way and then getting to 23 and 24 And finding people on Twitter and being going through the same cycle Of like just trusting people that market in themselves in a good way. So it it He gives me as when I was 16. I wasted all my money. I'm McDonald's. Oh, I so did I mean that was another and you know And and there's people right now that don't even realize that that's true. I mean the same I forget it's not the same thing. Well McDonald's had the the day of the week when I was younger make Value picks menu. Yeah, three ninety nine Talk about value. Yeah, except for Friday with filio fish, which I was in a big fan of personally. Wait. Wait. Hold on I got to ask you a question. Okay. This is not this is not my opinion. I Ask you. Do you like the filio fish? I like the filio fish. Yes. All right, but it wasn't the one of the week Okay, the argument the argument's over basically basically like I like fish sandwich with mayo and whatever like I'm into that. So what happened was Someone was asked hey, you like the filio fish like now we're staying on the menu McDonald's and the response was You ever had one and then the guys like no, you actually you got me. I've never had it And to this day anytime someone says the filio fish I said you like the filio fish. Yeah, and anybody who says no I say you ever had one and I'm like Maybe 17 for 17. They're like, you know what? Actually, no, I've never had one. I just don't like like it's one It's one thing if you don't like fish. I get that Told like if you say oh filio fish is terrible because you don't like fish. Well, of course you're gonna Of course, right? It's like oh, I'm gonna. I don't this tofu burger is terrible. I hate tofu. Like what am I gonna do? Like that's just my personal opinion But those those the value days were absurd. Oh the inflation is nuts though There's a 399 combo. This is when I was in high school you're obviously even older than me But I used to go with dollar dollar 29 McDubbles go get a McDubble now. It's like it's over three seventy nine I know. I did one the other day. I did one the other man Man those kids are getting broke these days. What's going on? But you know what? It's a it's a good point because it's I guess at the end of the day eating McDonald's literally every day Probably contributed to me going towards being broke But I always associate it with like the gambling But also it's so much going broke financially is only half the battle Eating McDonald's every day contributes to you becoming unhealthy, which is even worse It's a good perspective honestly. I don't I didn't come into this with that perspective, but It's fair. I mean, I do see how the arguments that you're comparing for like especially in this podcast that they compare from other industries Can can be I know it's not the same thing. Yeah, all I'm saying is there's similarities very big similarities between every industry and for those of you Listening to this podcast who are in sports, but you think it's the worst thing ever. I can assure you it's not and there's differences in other industries that are just as bad And for those of you who are in other industries thinking what the hell how is this guy getting this is this it's the same So they're very similar in everyone. Yeah, I'm just shaped by personal experiences. Yeah. Yeah, let's go ahead. Okay, so this is a same section But I skipped a couple of minutes because that conversation leads to them rating chicks on Reddit. So okay, we can skip over that We don't need we don't all right So where's the line guys? I think the line is if you are misrepresenting yourself in a way to I guess I can say scam your audience Then then that's crossing the line, but isn't everything we're talking about misrepresent Yes, but to what ends all right. Yeah, I wouldn't use the word scam. I don't I think misrepresentation on his point That's the line. That's crossing the line. Yeah, that's what is scamming well the other thing is like Let's end it on you. It's on you. God scamming is not Not supplying the returns on the customer's investment whatever that investment is so if someone doesn't win Not no, not maybe not necessarily win, but not have the lifestyle that you are portraying That they can have with your representation. It's the same thing as if saying like I don't work for a team or or or whatever But yet I'm selling tickets to an event that they're not real tickets But I'm putting it out there that I'm representing myself as I go to the game I'm sitting at the 50-yard line. I got great seats. You can have these seats too So I let's define what you're saying because I think there's something here important Is if there's something that is intrinsically definable and that's the key good and bad isn't right all playdose about that But thank you, but the question is is is it quality Information or is it a fugacy is it inauthentic? Is it counterfeit? Let's use that word. Is it counterfeit or not counterfeit? Example, I say my records 118 and 100 I am having a winning year, but I'm laying my s 123 on average in my place So I'm actually down for the year now that's a different thing that's lying about an objective truth So that's a good line about your record is next on my tears, right? But I do think and maybe there's not going to be an answer We'll go back for one more try I think this idea of counterfeit or not counterfeit if you're selling something that's inauthentic that's not Or that's counterfeit then you're selling something doesn't matter how you sell it in a way It's that you're selling something if I say this is gold and it's not and I sell it. I've done something wrong That's the real question is and it's back to raw pizola and whomever who's the arbiter of what authentic or not if it's something like Opinion because all a pick is as an opinion. Sure, but then heaven places Started to put like disclaimers like this is for entertainment purpose only or or we or we do not claim to be experts in the field And that's where he reacts for people say that because you can get you can be liable I mean the original of that this is for entertainment only was the the wire act in which Bob Martin one of the first lines makers every one of the most respected guys in the history of agus went to jail Over the wire act literally pick up the phone someone in Chicago says hey, what's the line on this game if he told him He goes to jail over that because that was the way there were the the wire rooms That's the only way people got the line there wasn't any dawn bastard whatever the way to get the line was to call Vegas and that's why I remember it says out of the start us those bank of phones six phones there the more and six or like 12 or something There were a whole bunch of them. Yeah, and I used them Absolutely So what are you gonna say? What's the difference between what's considered scamming? Well, so there's there by the way This is actually an interesting conversation Um, I will listen to the pod and full after this, but there's there's like It would be inherently Challenging for me to define Like what is a scam like what is right and wrong in this and this would be my own definition But it would be very hard As someone who's lived through this like I've been betting more than half my life. I've been betting professionally for several years There's like not a thought probably like I see something It's hard to disclose this it's like the spider spider sense, you know spider-man You see something and you're like this is a scam like or you can't you can't describe it But just like as as a season better you're able to look at something instantaneously and say like This is wrong. This is wrong. It's plain and simple. This is wrong You know what I'm getting at like I know that they're they're trying to arrive at a definition of like and it's a good exercise in doing So and Scott side in berg brings up like some interesting scenarios and he talks about misrepresentation as well but like Lumping everything into like scam or whatever is not the way that I personally think about things I just think about things in right and wrong and I'll go back to big like again I'll repeat it over and over right like I got a decision to make for the hammer We want a profit as a business we've aborted directors We have people who genuinely want to make money I'm the CEO of the hammer because I want to make money This is a life play for me I've loved doing content we want to monetize but it comes down to okay we can do this But Ethically does this make sense? That's how I make decisions honest to God. That's how it happens and in a lot of these instances Like you know, they'll go they'll go around here and they'll talk about this and I think in their mind like in RJ's mind He probably thinks that what they're doing at pregame is totally morally acceptable It's fine. We're running a business. Yeah, of course. We have to market ourselves That's what every top business is going to do. How are we going to get pick sales if we don't market ourselves? Of course we put You know the lat if someone's hot we elevate them to the top of the page right And that's fine. That's that's a business But like I would already just go to the site and say like Okay, you you're gonna advertise that every single pick is there Technically, that's correct every single pick in the history is there But having someone have to go through yeah, but imagine they could only see one pick per 24 hours Yeah, like it's like okay, this is really so to me that's like okay, it's not an outright scam But it's like immoral in a sense right like if you're gonna put all the picks up on the site Give the people a filter to see all time like there's not a filter where I could see all time record from somebody Or just filter by sport like if you want to run a legitimate service That's what I would say that in my opinion again. It's not a scam But it's like is there's an ethical boundary that's crossed and that's my own personal thoughts on that but like I don't know them I'm ever gonna be able to like come up with a definition of like this is this is morally right. This is morally wrong No, it's like on a case-by-case basis. There's just so many things that come up where like You know somebody recapping their winning days on Twitter, but never recapping a losing day Like it's not a it's not a scam It's just like it's just a shitty thing to do. I mean a true scam by definition would be like As he mentioned if he said something was gold. He sold it as gold. It wasn't gold Yes, that that a hundred percent is that's a scam right but and obviously that happens It happens out there, but now it's now it's into like marketing tactics. Yes. How What marketing tactic is offline exactly where do you cross the boundary with marketing tactics? And I don't know that there's a good situation there But I do feel like I have the right to call that out as does anybody people can call out the hammer like they can call out This podcast and be like well you guys collect money from a sportsbook I mean, there's someone in the comments right? It's like oh, you're gonna send pinnacle players to pinnacle It's a sharp sportsbook, right? It's like well, yes It's a sharp sportsbook, but like we preach why we go to pinnacle every day competitive like you're gonna find the best price at pinnacle like half the time We're gonna do that if you're a better that gets limited go play there because you're not gonna get limited like we preach why And to me that it Maybe it's a way of convincing myself that it's morally acceptable But I feel like we're giving we're arming people with that information Without them having to like dig through And find it or learn the hard way you know you know what I'm getting at do and same with me like I'm I'm with you like you're There's nothing wrong with sending someone to to this if you think it's gonna be good But yeah at the end of the day man like I don't even know exactly what they're getting at though like I'm not They're not fully into this uh into this combo here like I understand like I feel like there's we need a little more context they if they're just saying who's the police of like this that it's kind of what it's getting up It's like okay. Well at the end of the day There is no police for this correct the person makes their own decisions. Yes in regular in in other businesses There is like oh this regulatory body that has to approve these marketing conditions and these Ingredients on packaging and things like that. So there's like somewhat of a police here But even that's bullshit in a lot of industries as well as pay for stickers and whatever Same thing I mentioned like at what point is the I don't know which conveys is but like the Ford motor trends trucker the year award In what point He's like yes, okay, did it win that award? Yes did Ford make that company up last year and just give it car the award also Yes, so at what point is that scamming someone Versus Marketing your product around no one knows like who's the police? I don't know there was got to make your own decision I watched a documentary on Netflix is a food doc called poison And it was about the US food system and specifically there's like two Major companies that manufacture chickens or like breed chickens or whatever and then they send the eggs Down to four companies who then like get them ready or whatever and and that's like who sends it out into market And there's supposed to be like salmonella checks and all this shit The the industry is just policed by a company that just decided they were gonna be The ones to police it and they I mean the implication is that they're getting paid under the table or something by those actual four chicken manufacturing companies So like I'm not an idiot like this happens across the world like people you know there's there's There's There's no policing of the sports betting industry there were never there's regulators for sportsbooks and the individual markets The rest of this stuff there never will be which is why like I feel that I'm at least entitled To regularly voice my opinion on a lot of this stuff and Candidly, I think the people who get most upset with me about voicing this stuff is people who are selling stuff on top of it We're just like who are you to say that I can't do this and that and I'm not saying that you can't I'm just saying that you should do it in a way that's Not immoral. Yeah, all right. Let's get to where they talk about circles off specifically Zach So fast I have found you guilty of this kind of stuff in the past You say you know I do this so that's okay, but everything to the south of here is a problem Do you kind of see where that's off at this point? I get why you want to feel that but you see where Hey, there's people look remember you went on some podcast and they were attacking you It's like how can you say your professional if you do this and if you're such a great world-class professional Why don't you have a betting you know Of 30 million dollars. How come it's below that? Yeah, I stick by that by the way 100% yeah pause that for a second Yeah, yeah, I mean that's that's it was a fair question. Oh, I stick by that a million percent go ahead Hit play and that was a person who was being sanctimonious that was deciding by his critique by his values you folks short of it Yes, and the irony is now you by the way you equated yourself really well in that case Thank you very much and the irony was that was on the circles off podcast with Rob Pizzola and Johnny and Johnny came after me But Rob but it but you see the no here's the thing. It's easy for the I told you at the time didn't I I go Rob was defending you you're yeah, I go, but was that guy on the show the next week? Yeah, yeah, you know That's the thing. It's nice to have an attack dog that does I never attacked anyone by the way on his pot Agreed so don't consider that attack on Fez. I also don't consider what I was doing a defense by the way I'll get into that in a second. I'll simply say that my argument Was rooted in straight logic and I stick by it 100% and we'll not back down for that If Fez was betting the way he said and had the edgy said his bankroll should be significantly more than 30 million dollars I can math I can map out the math for all you guys improve real life examples and by the way tons of people that I met at bet bash we're like 100% you're right. I don't even know how this is an argument like this is this is simple mathematics that's going on To meet Fez like at bet bash. I met him for like Honestly 30 seconds and I was like hey, and I wanted to talk I wanted to talk to him about it Just like nothing hashed out. It's not like an argument. We don't do if people those you don't know me in person like I'm a very very easy going guy I'm not trying to argue with people ever ever like not even podcast this nothing like I'm just trying to anything But I didn't get a chance to like actually talk to him for a long period of time I wanted to but as I mentioned at the start of this like man Bet bash is crazy people coming up to me all time. I'm going here. I got to run here. Go. Okay. We got a dinner here This guy wanted to meet so I didn't get a chance to but I I will in the future I would I actually am gonna listen back or watch back that episode as well because I when I was sitting next to you and we were we were chatting with Fezic I didn't like I didn't get the feeling that I was defending him I just didn't want to like pile all like we I don't think it would have done a great service to the interview Maybe I'm wrong, but like you have to make these calls when you're in the moment in the interview And like generally we have an idea of where we want to go with the guest But I didn't want to make it seem like he was coming on the podcast and we were just gonna like Both of us were just gonna go at him the whole time. I don't think that's gonna do a good like first of all He's giving us his time second of all. I can still ask questions that and like be a neutral party in that conversation Without like I don't know maybe I did come across this one other thing here. Yeah, just just for a legit thing here Okay, for anyone who thinks I'm like attacking people or even just listening to this is kind of a little bit annoying like Rob sends if you've been on this podcast, you know Rob sends a question list to every single guest before the show With time in advance to review it and the message is this This is what we think would be a grid entertaining episode that we can talk about If you have anything on this list, it's not cool. You don't want to talk about let me know right now There's anything you want to add. They do want to talk about let me know right now, okay? We sent that list to fessick I give one more caveat by the way. I'm sorry to interrupt you let you finish I also let them know that we're not gonna just stick to the list So just to be fair, I do say to everyone this to me is like a good flow But if you say something that Compels us to have a to steer the conversation in a different direction. We are gonna do that Like I don't like to interview top the bottom question order. I like to have general topics So I do let the guests know that as well And in addition to that if I'm not mistaken on fessick's list for the show was hey, we're gonna ask you about pick selling Why do you sell picks? Why do you do it? What are like you know everything in regards to it? Okay, and in addition to that one other thing Which you know, we don't like to do this and it's not and we don't it's not like we're editing all these episodes We haven't actually had to do it very often, but we also do tell the guests Hey, if there's something you said on the show that you don't want out there because I think it's gonna make you look bad. I think it's gonna harm something like and I'm talking post recording You got the best in the biz here Yeah, producer Zach say Zach's gonna cut out Producing not for EV not for circa millions But Serious we got the best in the biz here. We say Zach can cut anything out We'll make sure we make you look good not to worry. It's a pre-recorded pod. We don't do this live We're gonna make sure that there's something you say that's like oh, you know what? I wish I didn't say that on the podcast. No worries. We take that out So for an episode to come out of circles off The sheet was sent in advance. The guest has to okay the questions with that on there and in addition after the interview The guest has to okay. Yep, perfect. I think it was a good episode I think it was entertaining. It's gonna be a lot of fun. We talked to physics for half an hour off air afterwards I know but by no means do I consider like what I ask them an attack and in addition to that as I'm saying right now 100% standby and believe everything I said there in regards to him If he's betting the way he says and if he has that edge, which he's selling Should have that bankroll it my my my two cents really quickly on this where that you ask questions and you didn't feel like you were getting Justifiable answers and you continued to press on those questions which I think if you're in media or journalism or do whatever that's just natural and I I personally don't think what you did in that interview was unfair. I think those are questions in media or journalism I did this podcast for fun 100% but like that that to me like if you just if you're getting answers that You feel personally like don't vibe or you can sense you know, there's something tingling and you're like No, no, no, no, I don't like and you want to press That to me is always okay period The guest is there representing themselves. They can't answer questions Or you know if the host and guest disagree like it's gonna happen, but Yeah, I mean like I don't I kind of think that's a little bit obviously RJ is gonna say that I didn't like it was not an attack But if it comes across then I guess it wasn't attack if it comes across is that so it is what it is you know But yeah, we talk you can say we talk for half an hour after I'll share my thoughts on on after like I will share my Let's listen to the rest of this and then I got yep because people were saying all why don't you like attack Brad powers then if you're gonna I'll explain it. Go ahead. Yep, and then you can seem like the reasonable one I might have been bristling more. I've sitting next to him during this this you know and you were defending each other I mean, I don't listen. I like Rob Yeah, all people might say RJ because he was a outlaw once. He's too sympathetic to outlaws You could I mean we all got a very sad you know, you have a bad reputation to Rob Pizzola and I said Rob Pizzola has a great reputation. I think it's impeccable impeccable is what he said isn't that the quote? It's got I'll get the quote. Yeah, it wasn't packable. You said impeccable Yeah, I don't think I mean I don't know anyone that's like I know I think Rob is legitimate in that he doesn't do anything It could be perceived as illegal or unethical I find it to be and again, I'd much rather have someone it's a little too sanctimonious that is naturally ethical And maybe help them see. Hey, maybe we shouldn't judge quite as much Then someone who's just a scammer that you that's hard to reform them. Did you have I know the word is regularly said your your reputation is impeccable That's cool direct. I never used that word too. No, you do pretty you use it pretty regularly never mind Thanks AJ And RJ there says like Rob doesn't do anything that can be perceived as illegal or unethical I don't agree with that either I think a lot of people can perceive what I do as unethical I don't agree But like there could be people out there that be like you work with sportsbooks. You take sportsbook dollars That makes what you do unethical I don't agree with that argument, but that can totally be so like I you know By the way, Fezick Calling saying my reputation was impeccable next to me really caught me off guard in that moment I would have never and I could have never imagined that like All the moments in my life that have like led to this would lead to Fezick defending my reputation Um against Darren Revelle honestly can't even believe that that happened, but Anyways, Johnny. I think that I think the larger conversation here that they're kind of getting through is is it's a conversation about the ethics of sports betting, right? And this is a two hour long dream preview episode We're not going to listen to the entirety of it overall But I think that there's a lot of conversation points that are worth discussing people will have different um You know opinions on them the lie on different sides of the argument But it comes down to like what is considered unethical or immoral in the sports betting space who gets to be The arbiter of that and say like what is what is real what is not what can you do what can't you do and honestly I think it's very interesting discussion But I don't think that there's a real answer It's just like everyone is valid is entitled to their own opinion The things that really bother me are when when people make personal attacks on others I've voiced that before I think like at the end of the day You might not like someone But there's still a human being and just treat them with respect I don't know why that's such a big problem, but arguments happen all the time Um, Fezick powers, you know, it's happening right now Um in in in real time and has been for the last couple of weeks like it's gonna happen But you just don't cross the line and you know get to the point where I think it's you know nasty type of thing But I don't I've spoken I've spoken my piece on this But you do have to you do have to answer to why the powers interview Didn't go the same way as the Fezick interview. I can give some commentary on I'll give you the exact I can I can also speak to my side of things there. So um First off anyone who understands betting in limits is already under census So I don't even know who I'm talking right now because most people should easily be able to understand this if you don't And you if you still don't understand after explain it leave a comment and I'll try to do my best to Actually put an Excel spreadsheet down over a 15 year period and really just map both the numbers for you Okay, so I try to pull up a little bit right now Here's the main difference between Brad Powers interview and Steve Fezick. Okay, Brad Powers college football originator Steve Fezick NFL Regenerate does other sports I'm sure they both do other sports, but in the context of the interview Brad Powers was talking about how He sells his picks and how He sells his picks is it's a guaranteed source of income diversifies a little for him and he's making good money on the pick sales Okay, so Brad Powers is betting and he's admittedly openly openly betting College football openers or let's say early in the week early in the week or openers. Okay, the limits on the on this stuff that he's betting Without working with a major group or syndicate is within the single digit thousands. Okay So what I mean by that is like you're probably gonna get anywhere between zero and $9,000 on the play 9,000 would be pretty impressive for an early weekend I felt and again unless you're working with groups things like that Also, if you're not working with groups and you're just on The regular sports put accounts might have limp cut here cut here cut here You never know where you're gonna be able to get down. There's very few places like pinnacle sports where you can constantly actually get down But for those of you who know pinnacle limits early in the week not very high for college football Obviously depend on the region in the game. So For Brad Powers, I'm gonna throw out some numbers here now just to be clear I'm not sure if this is the numbers of what he's making from from pick sales I don't know if this isn't even close. Okay Let's say Powers makes a hundred thousand dollars from his pick sales and let's say Fezick makes a hundred thousand dollars from his pick sales Okay, that's a significant amount of money a hundred thousand dollars not not a lot of money not a not a You know life changing amount. It's gonna set you for life But also 100k a year that's higher than the average salary in the US and Canada a lot of money. Okay When we look at this The amount that Brad Powers can make on his own from betting If he is getting let's say an average of two or three thousand dollars of play If he has a 35 unit season You made 70,000 in order for him to odor in his pick sales He would have to have a 50 unit season at 2k or you know, whatever equivalent at 4k 25 unit season winner I'm assuming he's picking spreads and totals at minus 110 obviously it's not the case, but for the simplicity of this you guys understand it If Powers has an incredible year Now he's got an extra 100k in his bankroll And now let's say he continues to grow that bankroll and he's at 300,000 And he's at a million and he's at two million dollars in bankroll He still has the issue That even though he might want to bet 30 40 50,000 on those games because he's betting early week and that's his edge He doesn't have the ability to bet 30,000 on a game Due to that if powers had a billion dollars Or 300,000 he's still betting the exact same amount of money therefore it does not scale There's no one who he's able to cross with there's no group. He's able to you know Work with that's going to give him three four five million dollars a year to actually be able to provide value to those picks In that scenario which he's open with Doing stuff like media doing stuff like selling your picks that makes an extra couple hundred thousand a year Insanely plus EV diversified revenue stream. There you go. That's why I don't have an issue with it Okay, to be clear I also don't have an issue with physics model, which is I'm going to sell my picks for NFL But here is where I question physics and say hey, it doesn't make sense The reason is let's say physics makes a hundred thousand dollars for his picks and again, I'm not sure that's the amount but assume it is For physics If he has been a documented winner for 20 years and I'm not sure what the exact claims are If I need to and people still don't understand that after this I will go through and get his record by year whatever best I can possibly find and I will map it out And I will kelly stake the exact things and I will prove to you how he should have at this point A bank role that is well into the tens of millions well into the tens of millions and if you have a bank role well into the tens of millions Maybe let's say your bank role is 30 40 million Then every NFL game that you have an edge on if you still do what she claims he does You should be hammering that number until it's no longer in place Therefore it make even more money So to put it into perspective I just want to pre-game right now. I pulled open physics record again The drop said it's kind of hard to see current season. It doesn't actually have it here But I'm looking it's a hundred dollar picks case. That's like boat even So that'll be for He's up about This is it's tough man. You're gonna have to go day by day one You're gonna have to back you're gonna have to backtrack on this Rack all-time record thing probably because you're gonna go day by day is to take you six three weeks He's he's up it says current season. He's up about 60 units. Okay. Again give or take I can calculate it after If he's up 60 units in the current season If he was up 60 units in his first season, let's say you started with $50,000 now he's grown his bankroll big time. Okay Kelly staking Every year that's compounded by this point. Sky should have If he's winning 66 units a year or this is just current current season. It looks like he's even promoting more than this How is he not a billionaire at this point and this is all I'm saying is Physic had claimed on the show. He said I give out NFL picks on Sunday morning and those picks those numbers are available If they are available Pinnacle sponsor the show 100k a click Yep with rebate on a one cent move meaning if you have an edge a minus 105 And you're willing to bet that to an average price of minus 110 as a million dollars you get down One cent move every time you're going to get down roughly a million dollars First simplicity may not move like that eventually after a couple hits they'll move the number further whatever But leveraging every book every oath that you have that's not going to limit you Medical circa few other books that you know we all know Getting down into the mid seven figures Extremely easy easier than getting $9,000 dollars down on Brad powers is early week college football Out of conference college football stuff So that's the simple argument for me is this If you're betting NFL and you're claiming they're still an edge and you've won super contest When do you win the super contest years ago? So you had at least has that bank role that we know for sure That's been in there plus the pick selling services plus all this stuff Physics response was How how could I be a I have a family oh give a family that and I'm not trying to be con ascending here whatever I'm explaining the math anybody who knows knows it's very simple If you had an edge betting NFL during Sunday morning at the high limits and you've had that edge for 20 years You're a billionaire Bear enough well said do you agree or disagree? So I agree with a lot of what you're saying But with with like the I think that there's some nuance here that could be discussed right You're very driven like you have an edge in sports betting you're very driven by maximizing that edge making money Whatever and that's totally fine like lots of people strive to to that and for a large part of my life like when I had My peak edge in NHL like that was all I could think about is like how am I gonna extract the most money this year But there are people that lose that drive and maybe in physics case which he didn't articulate by the way At least not to my recollection Maybe it's not just like money for him and his appetite to grow is not the same as yours So I think that where there could be potential disagreement there right like his motivation in betting Might not be I want to make as much money as humanly possible. No, but Rob this like I know I know Maybe I'm different in mindset, but it doesn't exist like you're not gonna make you're not gonna even bother Doing the work to make a hundred thousand dollars selling picks If you're making thirty million dollars a year betting football fair You're not gonna make put the effort into even type those picks and the the the hundred thousand in sales Is gonna erode your ability to make thirty or sixty million dollars like so it when we're talking this here I don't accept the excuse of Well, you know, I don't really care that much about betting. I I'm happy to make a hundred thousand betting and a hundred thousand My thing I I mean listen Maybe there's people who think like that. Yeah, but it's so far fetched to believe that Someone who actually believes what she said on the podcast. Yes. I have an edge betting football the numbers are there I give it out. I asked them. I said do you think people who buy your service will win. He said yes Said yes, and they're they're marketing it hundred units 20 units 50 units 60 units whatever it is here It's hard to find the exact amount. Yeah, they continually market that 30 units A van of fell. Yes is on Sunday morning is 60 million dollars. Yeah, if you could write roll. It's 60 to a hundred and 50 million dollars if you have the right roll and What I mean by if you have the right role is it's possible to get that amount down I'm not saying everyone should be betting that much. I'm not saying there even are people betting that much what I'm saying is It's possible. It's been done people can do it. Yeah I'm not I'm not gonna make any more like at the end of the day. He had his opportunity To to give his own answers on the situation right and When I ran into him at bet bash we were talking a little bit not very long but about that interview and specific and And again, this is just my like opinion or or my read of him on the situation could be entirely untrue But my read was that I think he wish he had a do over on a couple of questions and could have voiced them a bit better We can definitely do it again, and I want to also give my thoughts on physics as a better by the way because this is Despite what I just said here. I will tell you this about physics. Do I think he wins? Actually, yes, I do. I genuinely think he wins. Do I think he wins at NFL? Yes I do and I think he's wanted NFL for a long time. Obviously, you know Might have had a losing season in here or there, but I genuinely would back him if you told me hey I got to stake out my own money would I bet for physics to win on NFL this year? Yes, no I'm betting the yes max bet easily however With that being said Do I think that his Sunday morning available lines over the course of the NFL season are going to be profitable for subscribers? No, if I did I would buy those picks and I would jam on with my own money Yep, and then I too would be would have a hundred million dollars and then eventually a billion dollars So therefore I don't mean to disrespect the guy in any way I'm just explaining the concept of how the liquidity works in the market and the answers of oh I have a family like I don't really understand how that plays into the mathematics that I'm showing or You know can show in terms of like actually providing and that physics agree he's great at math I'm pretty sure he's an actuary. Yeah, he knows the calculations better than me, right? So that's that's all I'm trying to say there, but in terms of the physics like he actually is super sharp in The way he handicaps and the way he bets. He's found countless edges over the year. I used to listen to him Prior to he and being on the podcast even prior to me even um, you know when I was young way younger when it was just getting into sports being used to listen to him So actually matter spec for him as an actual better as well as as like a mind because he is very sharp Plus cv minus cv you already gave your minus cv Zach got to get it together, bro. I'm the I was I but Maddie Simon honestly At Vegas underscore Maddie. He's a good proxy and literally does not pay me. I'm just telling you I've used Maddie Simon as a proxy for many many years This is all I'm gonna say I'll end this conversation now never made a mistake I've heard horror stories from everyone else that has had to do stuff in Vegas. Do you have a plus cv For the week you mark these all down, huh? I got to start doing this Well, let me actually go to my thing. So I just write them down like if I think of them Yeah, it's smart life and then I'll and then I'll see um I have some I wrote them down while Johnny finds them if you want me to go here go ahead Zach Okay, so uh, I went to Circa this past weekend and we did the hit the book show there So that was incredible my first time in Vegas. That's kind of why I was there to sign up for the contest um plus cv live tv on planes I've never been on a plane with live tv. Oh, it's a bad day flight on Thursday had the live tv I got sat down and I was like oh my god like I'm locked in watch the tour championship for three and a half hours on the flight It was it was the it was the best I I honestly had just had never experienced that before That was plus cv. That was that was incredible. Yep. I had never experienced that. Yep. I'm a big fan live tv on planes as a game changer Then you connect to the Wi-Fi and you throw some live betting on while you're on the game. I'm not joking That that's going to be like delays in the live You're not you cannot be doing that But wait till the commercial breaks man. So I got I got a plus cv uh written down. It's actually uh It's a plus cv from a live dog Luke. Yeah, uh part of the spanky crew I call him Luke the man. That's what I'm going to continue to call him It's it's I don't want to be saying all Luke. Oh, which Luke uh spanky's get knocked that's listen. Yes. He's on spanky's team But he's his own guy Luke the man. That's what I call him now. So if I ever say Luke the man is live dog Luke we were at that bash Uh, he came up to get a drink and I said oh, I have an extra here. Have it Said that's the most negative EVV move ever. It's a it's an open bar. I'll just get my own like I don't know So happened and I we laughed about it Day later He comes to the other bar again. I'm there and he's like oh, I'm just gonna get a water and I'm like I actually have an extra water and he's like buddy Negative EV got his own water. So the positive EVV move is at an open bar Get your own drink get a fresh drink. It's an open bar. Yeah There's no downside All right, what do you go? And I already gave my negative EVV which by the way it wasn't about the super contest The negative EVV play is not asking friends for help when you could potentially I did ask friend. Okay, I but I will say I will say based off the conversation Negative EVV is asking Pazola specifically for help based off the conversation There could have been a little bit more context and like Questions provided in which he just asked me how do you sign up to a pro I know I know I don't get a proxy gave you I gave you the answer. Yeah, this is the guy I use but he didn't even tell you like yeah You didn't even ask him like I'm I getting absolutely rinsed. Yeah, what's typical's fee or whatever, you know how much like that that kind of stuff I would have been in a bad mood because I think I was golfing at the time you sent that to me But either way I probably would have got bad back to you, but okay. Yeah, fair enough I just assumed that that was normal price based on like you were like all I'm not throwing you on the bus here, but you that was the person you recommended. Yeah I like but for context for context I'd sign up for 15 contests. Yeah, right. It's not negative for him. Yeah, split in the big across multiple bets. Yeah, I got understood And and let's not forget converting the the money at the ATM with the credit card. Yeah, there's a lot of mistakes happen We need to have we need to have a conversation definitely played the eight and a half percent resort fee You definitely played the roulette wheel with three zeros No, there wasn't there's not one at circle Plus EV for me. This is actual advice Maybe this is stuff that like people knew about beforehand I never knew about this shit before. I don't wear dress shoes a lot. I had my sisters wedding last week My dress shoes didn't come in in time So I had to run out the night before like 830 as the mall was closing to buy a pair of dress shoes That would match my suit But I have issues with dress shoes generally where they like wear down the bat like the Achilles area of my leg And it's bothering me forever. I've never been able to find a comfortable pair of dress shoes Little did I know they actually sell these soft pads that you can put in on the back of a dress shoe Absolute game changer did not feel them forever So don't be an idiot like me and wear dress shoes that are painful forever get yourself one of these little pads That goes around the back at the Achilles. It's soft. It's really nice. You can dance you can do whatever you got to do Plus EV it's like six bucks. I don't know which companies make them doesn't matter. Just get them minus EV consuming content That you don't actually like and you people might say like why would you do this? Why would you consume content that you lose half our subscribers? Well, you know you get Go ahead Rob continue. Well, you know what there are I mean bet pod ratings definitely does not like circles off He just continues to list. Thank you very much for listening by the way every single week and promoting our episodes I do appreciate that But consuming content that you don't actually like you get messages on like what's app and telegram and signal from your friends Or like oh check this out check this out and you can read the title and you're like I'm really not interested in this But like all right, I'm gonna The problem is once you go down This like and start clicking on all these things that your buddies are sending you Or these podcasts that are like rattling you like people like oh check out what Simon Hunter said I'm like I'm not gonna listen to it You know why because now my feeds are just full of shit content that I don't actually want to ever see in my life So I've gone down. I've made big mistakes YouTube I did like some competitive analysis on YouTube and I went to other sports betting channels and started watching the videos I should have done this under a burner account because now I'm getting fed the worst sports betting content imaginable What's app like clicks into Instagram you should see the shit I get recommended on Instagram now It's very bad these algorithms they pick up quick They think you like something and you're watching something and you're clicking into it regularly You're gonna get force fed that for a long time So do not consume content that you don't actually like unless it's this specific thank you podcast On top of that just want before we end Thank you for tuning in everyone out there and supporting the show obviously click the like button subscribe and all that Football season is right around the corner hit the books is absolutely killing it right now in terms of viewership And I will say we finally got Joey Kanisha Mike the next episode of hit the books You're gonna hear him with an actual microphone if he plugs it like I can't force him to plug it in because we've done this before with him I will force him but Joey crystal clear baby Joey crystal clear will be there Kanish and powers it's honestly the best show the real reason if you listen this long that I didn't share powers And I was tripping physics is because powers part of the hammer betting network like subscribe. Yes Douglas farmer Parker Fleming on Wednesdays never punt never parlay I'm very proud of the college football content So if you haven't checked out to hit the books YouTube channel do that You can also check it on podcast form and forward progress powered by pinnacle During the NFL season starting next week We are going to be live six days a week Monday through Friday and then Sunday two shows pizza buffet with myself in the mornings And then the recap show at night with Clive Bixby as well. So we have live content every single day It's the usual cast and crew me Clive Fabian Somer Eric Eager hit man George G stack George sharp Clark. I'm missing people all over the place Jeff Feinberg Like we get we got it all so forward progress on YouTube and check it out in podcast for we are so back Baby we are so back and let's go I got one last thing it's a brand new show on hit the books. So you obviously see condition powers But Monday mornings nine a.m. Eastern time rad powers release. We're gonna do a Brad powers release We're gonna see how it goes. I'm not you know that steam We're gonna start with a Brad powers release show to start the year And we're gonna see how it goes because a credit by the way to Adam turn off who like coined this idea At what I give credit where to do yeah, I'm not I'm not gonna call no, no, no, it's not called big churn. I don't think he likes that I heard him say that before is like where they'll just come from big churn I'm not big or whatever. I'm like no, that's not what we mean by big like it's just anyways never my baby churn baby churn Is what I like to call him but Yeah, also one of the things Right angle sports the actually like originators of the whole release. Yeah, I will say this right now If you're thinking of signing up again, they crushed CLV record on bet stamp Hit me up Personally Circles off at circles off HQ on Twitter. I have a promo code for you guys for writing those sports If you want to buy the package for this season and it's actually a big discount if you buy it. So actually hit me up Hit him up. You can email as well Email circles off at the hammer dot bet hammer dot bet This has been a big bomb banger of an episode. We got through a lot of topics People were asking for more links. What's the clip gonna be you've been asked for more like for this or haven't you? What's gonna be What's the clip gonna be for this episode? That's a tough one. You make notes Zach as you go along. You have to be making notes. Don't don't make it You got a time stamp my rant my monologue on physics. Don't make it that make it make it robbed for this one. Make it me. Please All right, there's probably a lot of quality clipable content in this one. Yeah, thanks. I think they're I think so This has been circles off episode number 117. We'll catch everyone next week Peace You