Crossroads: Classical Christian Education - Antidote to a Culture Gone Mad

♪♪ Hello, and welcome to the Crossroads Podcast, the show where Mark Meckler and Rita Peters discuss hot-button issues from a biblical perspective, helping to equip other Christians to bring light to a darkened culture. Rita is the senior vice president of legislative affairs, and Mark serves as the CEO and co-founder for Convention of State's Action. Find out more about visiting conventionofstates.com slash-part. Hello, friends, and welcome to another edition of Crossroads, Where Faith and Culture Meet. I'm your host, Rita Peters, and I'm really excited about the program that we have planned for you today, and I want to just set the stage a little bit for what we're about to discuss. You know, we are constantly hearing about and often talking on this program about what can only be described as the madness of our culture today. And for much of it, our public schools are ground zero. Some of it is so brazen and just constantly in our faces. A few examples of this are the push to embrace the idea that people can change their gender and school personnel, even helping kids to do this without informing or discussing it with parents. The promotion of critical race theory is another example. This idea that people from certain races should live in shame as oppressors and that people from other races should live in the state of indignance and outrage because they are the oppressed. This is some of what's being pushed today in our public school system. There's a push to normalize behavior like cross-dressing, even among the very youngest, most impressionable, vulnerable students through such activities as drag queen story hours. And this is at schools, public libraries. But I also want to add that some of the pernicious ideas being peddled in our culture broadly and specifically in our public school system are a little more latent and subtle, such as the idea that all societies, cultures, philosophies and religions are equally good. The idea that there's very little, if any, objective truth to be found in the world, that everything is just a matter of preference and opinion and that to challenge any idea or subject it to reasoned debate is a sign of disrespect or even aggression. So this is the water that we swim in in our culture today and against all that background, I am thrilled to bring to the program today, someone who's going to talk to us about what I believe is a cultural antidote to all of that. It's classical Christian education. And my guest today is the head of Redeemer Classical School in the Harrisonburg area of Virginia, Mr. Ron Hoke. Ron Hoke earned a Bachelor of Arts degree in Bible with the concentration in education from Cameron University. He then went on to earn a master's degree in religion from Reformed Theological Seminary as well as a master's in school leadership from the University of Pennsylvania. Prior to joining Redeemer Classical School, he served at Delaware County Christian School in Pennsylvania for 11 years as a teacher, coach, and administrator. And I don't want to neglect to add that Ron and his wife, Julianna, have four children. Ron, welcome to Crossroads. Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here with you and to talk about this important topic this morning. Yeah, well, I want to get a little more of your personal story and your background in classical education in just a minute. But first, why don't you start by just explaining the distinctives of classical education? Because some of our audience might not even really know what we mean when we say classical education. So what is it all about? Yeah, great question. And one that can be tricky sometimes to explain in a brief manner, but I'll do my best to be brief. Classical Christian education is a movement within education that is founded upon the liberal arts tradition. So going back into ancient Greece and the seven liberal arts of grammar, logic, rhetoric, arithmetic, geometry, astronomy and music, and that foundation of education that was considered necessary for individuals to be free and self actualizing citizens, meaning that they could stand on their own, they could think for themselves, they could reason well, they could present themselves well in the public sphere. Classical Christian education builds upon that, that foundation of the liberal arts education in a way that is directed towards Christ. And so one of the ways that I like to think about this is that classical Christian education seeks to nourish student souls on the good, the true, and the beautiful through a liberal arts education for the glory of God. And so that's the way that it kind of can condense that and put that into maybe a short little snippet. Yeah, that's great. Let's just dive into that a little bit more. So what are some of the things that make classical Christian education different from, you know, what kids in other schools are learning? And I would invite you to talk about, I mean, and just disclaimer here, I know about classical Christian education because my kids have all attended Redeemer classical school. I have six, three of my three oldest are in college now, but I have three kids currently in the school. And I would invite you to talk about the different stages, grammar school, logic school, and rhetoric school. Talk a little bit about those stages and what's being taught or focused on at each stage. Yeah, so you alluded to there, the Trivium, the first three of the seven liberal arts that I just mentioned, grammar, logic, and rhetoric. And we organize our school and classical schools across the country, organize their schools in this way, that the youngest grades are called the grammar school, the middle grades are called the logic school, the upper grades referred to as the rhetoric school. And the reason that we do that is because that paradigm of grammar, logic, and rhetoric follows closely with human development as we learn and grow, but it also serves as a paradigm for how we learn. And so grammar is the basic building blocks of any particular content. It's the rules of the game, so to speak. Typically, we talk about grammar in terms of language and linguistics, and there it's referring to the basic rules and organizing principles of language that govern how we form words and sentences and paragraphs and how we think and have thoughts that shrink together in a way that makes sense. But we can take that and apply that to anything. There's a grammar of mathematics, there's a grammar of science, there's a grammar of philosophy, whatever the topic might be. It says basic building blocks and principles that govern that particular discipline. And so we call our youngest grades the grammar school because they are learning all of those basic building block principles and fundamentals. They are getting a foundation of knowledge and skill upon which they can build for the next however in a year. Essentially, their lifetime, or hoping their lifetime that they build upon that. I'll come back and talk a little bit more about the distinctives of that in a moment, but just finishing through. Logic then is when we take those basic building blocks and we start to link them together to make sense, to think critically and to understand how one idea impacts another or how one fact influences another and how all knowledge, all truth is interrelated ultimately in the God who created it. And then rhetoric is referring to the ability to communicate well. So this is the capstone of secondary schooling here, is where students are now able to take what they've learned, to take that basic foundation of grammar, that they've learned in grammar school, the way that they've learned to think well in logic school, and to now articulate their thoughts and their convictions in a way that is a winsome and persuasive and clear. And so we want students to be walking through this progression, it's how they are learning and developing. But it's also how we learn particular subjects too. Any subject we learn, whether you're eight or 80, follows this same progression, right? You're going to start the basics, you're going to go a little bit deeper and see how it fits with other things that you already know, how it's deepening your understanding. And then when you know it well, you can articulate it to other people. And so we organize our school around this principle both for reasons of human development and because it's how we learn, it's how God has designed us to learn. And so in the grammar school, what that looks like is a lot of information gathering. Students are memorizing a lot of material, they're learning how language works, they're learning the basics of mathematics and science, they're getting that firm foundation. In the logic school, students are going to start questioning more, they're going to start discussing more, they're going to start seeking to understand how that information fits together within human history, within a particular framework of mathematics or science. And so how does one mathematical principle allow you to then take a step forward in another mathematical principle, for example. And then in the rhetoric school, students are going to engage lively in debate, in in socratic discussion, they're going to be writing much more, they're going to be sharing their ideas in speeches much more. And that culminates ultimately in our senior thesis, which is where students will have a research project, a thesis presentation and a thesis defense. And so that is the culmination, the pinnacle, so to speak of that process of learning how to communicate in a way that is effective and persuasive. Yeah, so anyone who's listening to the program who is a parent will immediately recognize how these stages fit the personal, educational development of their children. Because we know as our young children are little sponges, they want to soak up information, constantly asking why it's super easy for them to memorize in those younger years. So we're capitalizing on that. Our middle school students love to argue with us, right? So we're taking that natural passion and drive and we're harnessing it and teaching them, here's how you make a logical argument that makes sense. And then as they move on into that high school or rhetoric school stage, they're becoming young adults, they're preparing to go out into the world and we're giving them the tools to be eloquent in their speaking, in their writing, to be winsome, to be persuasive. And I just am completely sold on the classical Christian education model. Ron, I imagine you're pretty sold on it yourself because not only are you the head of school, but you're also a parent and your kids are younger than mine, but also go to redeemer classical school. So tell us a little bit just, you know, personally about your own passion for classical education, why you are convinced that this is the best model. Yeah, I think that there are a number of reasons that I'm convinced that this is the best model and it's hard for me to pick one or even two that might stand above the rest, but I'll do my best and not. I feel very strongly that what we need to do is equip the next generation, our children, our students to think well, to be able to identify areas where people are not thinking well, whether it's themselves or others, to defend their convictions and their beliefs in a way that is both loving and yet is persuasive, forceful. I mean, and I mean forceful in a loving way, right? It's convincing. It's solid in its argumentation. And I want them to at the same time, have a respect for other people in the sense that everyone has created an image of God and therefore deserving of respect and dignity and even those that we disagree with, right? So I have a firm conviction that the next generation needs to be trained in such a way that even disagreements in the public square are ultimately pushing both sides of the argument to be better and to be stronger. And I think that when I look up the world around us right now, I don't see that. I see argumentation that often makes us worse in many cases. It brings out the worst in people and it doesn't actually deal with the issues. There's so many attacks that are personal attacks that are talking past each other or are just not seeking understanding. And so one of the things that I'm most moved by in classical education is the value that it places on respecting different views and different opinions without compromising your own convictions and without flattening everything out into relativism where we just say, well, where everything is, that's true for you and it's not true for me. So it places a high premium on conviction and values and the truth and as from a Christian perspective, the truth of scripture. But in such a way that it is elevating the level of discourse and it's elevating the way in which we communicate with each other. And so that is one element that is, that is, I think, crucial that just, I love to see students doing that. But I also, from a parent perspective, and my oldest is just finishing up fourth grade right now, from a parent perspective, I love seeing my own children receive an education that I didn't receive. Yeah. In terms of the values and the content and the depth that they receive, I think that looking back, I don't think it went to a bad school necessarily, but there was a lot that I didn't get, there's a lot that I missed for various reasons, I'm sure. And when I look at what my own children are getting, I'm always impressed at the level of their understanding. And I think the part of that is due to high expectations and classical Christian education in general puts high expectations on students. And that is in part because of the expectation that they will rise to that challenge. And watching my children, my own children, rise to that challenge, even though it can be hard at times, and then seeing the outcome of that and seeing how much further along they are at each grade level than I was is moving. I mean, it really is, see their, it's incredible the level of content knowledge, but also the level of skill that they have at each grade level. Yeah, I totally would agree with that and have witnessed that in all of my children who've been through the school. And I also would agree with the longing that I could have had the education that they are getting. That's a beautiful thing to be able to give our kids something better than what we got. And I also just want to second everything you said about the priceless value of teaching our kids to be people who can go into the world that is just filled with outrage and arguments that are really just about emotion and not really rational a lot of times. And we're giving our kids the tools to go into that sort of society and have impact and show a better way. CS Lewis Raun is my favorite. He is my favorite author. He is one of my favorite people. And in the most famous part of his lectures on the abolition of man, his starting point for those lectures was education. And he really takes the education system and that was way back then, but really takes it to task for trying to train students against their natural impulses toward beauty and wonder and goodness. And that's where we get the famous passage that many of our listeners will recognize where he says, we make men without chests and expect of them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honor and are shocked to find traders in our midst. We cast straight and bid the Gildings be fruitful. And he says, the operation of the green book and its kind, he was referring to the current textbooks and the education system. The operation of that is to produce what may be called men without chests. And I see that today in America, Ron, do you think that's what's happening today? Oh, absolutely. And I think if you haven't read it, I would, anyone who's listening, it hasn't read abolition of man. I highly recommend it. Fantastic reading and it's really not very long. But what is interesting is what you just know there is that C.S. Lewis is writing this many years ago. And yet he's identifying in many respects the fountainhead of what we are receiving today. Right? What the trends in the, I'll go ahead and identify them as problems. The issues that we have in our education system today did not appear suddenly overnight, three years ago or five years ago or 10 years ago. They are the result of cultural, social, political, religious and moral transitions that have happened over many years. And within the educational sphere, this is not new. The particular manifestations of these issues may be new but the root causes are actually longstanding and have their source going back 100 years or so, maybe more. And I think that what it comes down to, if I had to summarize it, and this is I think what Lewis is saying when he says men without chess and in that particular passage, it's that we've removed any kind of sense of the absolute in our educational system. We've removed any kind of sense that there could be objective truth or objective value and value there I mean in the terms of right and wrong, but it's good and evil. But by doing that, we've created an educational system that has no point of reference from which to teach anything moral or anything pertaining to what is right or what is true, right? And as a result of that, our educational system has devolved into basically just self-exploration. We're no longer learning about the world around us and the world that God created. We're no longer learning about God in our educational system. We're learning about ourselves and what we feel. And that then has all sorts of ways that will manifest itself. And some of them you mentioned at the beginning of the episode here, in terms of issues around critical race theory, issues around transgenderism and those things, those are essentially just what do I feel right now? And that becomes the basis for then what is true. And it's because we've removed any sense of objective reality or absolute truth from the equation. Yeah, we are artificially making the world very small for our kids and it's a shame. We're robbing them of the opportunity to really appreciate and acknowledge the wonder of the world that God has created. And I wanna take a minute and just be clear with our listeners that our intention here is not to beat up on public school teachers or administrators, not at all. Many of you out there we know are working hard to make a difference in our public school system. And that work is highly valuable. It's desperately needed. We are grateful for you and what you're doing. And it's also not to say that if your child goes to public school here, she is doomed and you're doing something wrong, of course not. But the public school system in America today, as I think all of us will acknowledge if we're being intellectually honest, is an incredibly challenging environment for Christian kids and Christian adults. And for those who do have the option of classical Christian education, it is a really nice contrast and I want everyone to be aware of it because for me as a parent, it really helps give me hope for the next generation. And I personally believe that classical Christian schools are training and equipping kids to be the kind of thinkers, speakers, writers, influencers who have the potential to help put our society back on track in a positive direction. I mean, I'm sure you would agree with that, Ron. What would you add to that? Yeah, and it would echo this is not to put down any particular teacher or school. There are godly Christian people working in public school systems all across the country. I'm sure that and I'm sure that they're doing a great job in their particular classrooms. I guess the way that I've described it is this, that all education is a form of discipleship. The very word disciple, it comes from a word that means student, right? There's a discipleship and being a student sitting under a teacher, go hand in hand. And so the question is not whether, is not of which schools are discipling students, every school, whether it's a public school or private school or a Christian school, is discipling students. And they're discipling students towards a particular end, towards a particular goal, their version of what is good, right and true. So the question becomes not which schools are discipling because they all are. The question is what are those students being discipled towards? And in a classical Christian school, every classroom, every teacher, every interaction with students is working towards discipling to Christ. That's the difference. And in other school systems and in public schools in particular, there's a discipleship that's happening, but it's not towards Christ, right? Now there may be some teachers that can, that can, and I'm thinking about, you know, Christian teachers in a public school setting, they may be able to do certain things and showing the love of Christ in that setting, which is beautiful. But the system itself, as you're saying, Ria, the system itself is not working towards Christ. It's working towards something else. And so I think that's the question I'm kind of asked, is what is that student in that school system being discipled towards? There's one more issue I wanna address. We're running out of time so quickly, but I want to address this before we close today. And that is what I think is a popular misconception about classical Christian education. And that is that it's elitist, that it's really only suitable for a type of student who is definitely college bound, who is gifted academically, and who is from a rich family, because it's gonna be expensive. So I would just invite you to address that, what I think is a misconception. Yeah, I would agree that it's a misconception, but it is one that is out there. To the money part, I'll address that first. Yeah, I mean, private education costs something. But dollar for dollar, we are far less expensive than public schools and many other private schools as well. We, I won't get too far into the weeds, but we have, we receive about half the amount of money per student than the public school system does. So what we're able to do with that money is incredible. And it's, but there is still a cost and that's why I would love to see school choice just sweep across our country and give parents the opportunity to send their children to the schools that are gonna be best for them. And for parents to be the ones that are making that decision. So that's, and that's a discussion for another day on school choice. Yeah. To the, to the elitist part in terms of academics and rigor, I think that the reason that this misconception exists is because classical Christian schools expect a lot from their students. And you know, I said that earlier, but that in and of itself does not mean that it's not for a host of students. I'm not saying that redeemer in particular is right for every single student. That's not true. But a classical education, a classical Christian education, I think is for every student. It's design is to teach students how to think and how to live well. And that is for everyone. I think everyone should be trained in how to think well, how to think clearly, how to articulate their convictions. Everything we talked about earlier in terms of the Trivium, that should be for everyone. And to have high expectations does not mean that it's not meant for some people. It's just meant to the idea there's at wherever that student is, we wanna push them to be better, to push them to grow, to push them to develop. I think that there is probably work that can be done in terms of the support systems that we give to students within classical Christian schools to help students that are struggling better. But it most certainly is not meant to exclude students. If we believe that this truly is the best education, then what that means is that it is the best education for all and it's what we should be seeking to give to all of our students because it's gonna be best for them. And through that, it's gonna be what's best for our society. So if I could flip it on its head, I'll say it this way. If the challenge here on the latest claim is the high expectations, I would just flip it on its head to say, does that mean that low expectations is better? Or that low expectations is for everyone? No, that's not the case. So the fact that we push students, we have high expectations and there's rigor, is not meant to exclude. It's meant to say that we believe that our students are capable of that. And they're only going to rise to the level of the expectations that we set for them. Absolutely. Ron, we are out of time, but where can people go if they want to learn more about redeemer classical school in particular? Yeah, you can visit our website, redeemerclassical.org. Okay, that's redeemerclassical.org. Ron, thanks so much for being with us today. Thank you, it was a joy. I want to end by thanking our generous sponsors at Blue Ridge Chimney, Blessings Christian Bookstore, Sunshine Ministries with Christian Radio, Wishingwell Florists and Travel Services, and our friends at New Beginnings Church and Garber's Church of the Brethren and Harrisonburg. Thanks everyone for listening. If you'd like to make a donation to help keep crossroads on the air, you can do so by check to crossroads at PO Box 881, Harrisonburg, Virginia 2-2-803. I'm Rita Peters, inviting you to join us again next week. For another edition of Crossroads Where Faith and Culture Meet. Thank you for listening to the Crossroads podcast. To learn more about conventional states, go to conventionofstates.com. ♪♪♪