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On May 14, 1973, America's first space station and first crewed research laboratory in space
blasted off on the last Saturn V rocket.
This was Skylab.
Following a near catastrophic design issue requiring inorbit repairs by astronauts shortly
after launch, Skylab's crew conducted hundreds of experiments and captured nearly a quarter
of a million images of the sun with the onboard solar observatory.
It was also an opportunity to learn about long duration living in space.
Skylab made it possible to learn about the effects longer missions and microgravity
would have on astronauts and their equipment.
I'm Ryan Ferriselli.
Join me as I speak with retired NASA engineer Kenny Mitchell about Skylab on this very
special episode of Dare to Explore.
You're a friend of the show, you've been on it before.
Were you the first episode or were you our second episode?
Second episode.
Okay.
So it's kind of fun to have you back.
I've listened to that recently.
I had the damn.
That was pretty good.
That's all right.
Right.
So I appreciate you coming back.
It's an honor to get to talk to you again.
Today we're going to specifically be talking about Skylab because it's the summer of Skylab.
Before we get started to talk about Skylab, let's just briefly kind of remind folks who
you are.
You're Kenny Mitchell and you started working on all of these projects when you were just
18 years old.
I couldn't go to work the day I checked in.
I was still 17.
But the next day I was officially a member of the Army Ballistic Missile Agency, which
NASA did at that time.
Well it did, but it was just that headquarters.
But one year later I became a charter member of the Marshall Space Flight Center.
But I was a co-op student at Auburn University trying to get a mechanical engineering degree.
Worked three months, got a scoop, three months, worked three months, got a scoop, three
months.
Took five years, twelve quarters.
I never thought living in the city and everything was unsfull that I'd have such a career
that I did.
It's been an amazing journey.
It's just the older you get, the more you reflect on your life.
Sure.
How old are you now?
81.
The 82 in September.
That's incredible.
Congratulations.
You all have.
A lot of us in Skylab that aren't around anymore.
You worked, before you worked on Skylab, you worked on some pretty big projects too, right?
You were a Saturn program primarily.
As a young engineer, everything I learned about aerospace and rocketry, I learned at the
job, not at Auburn.
But I had to have a sheepskin, they ever have a job, so I finally got your sheepskin.
I've always enjoyed.
I worked for Dr. Von Brown ten years under his leadership, was that they'd been one year
I was there, and before he went headquarters, I worked Saturn V and it was in the thermal
control fluid dynamics area of crygenics, super insulation for trying to keep the crygenics
from boiling off, or you ever launched, base heating, all the hot gases that happened
when you ignite that mama, both for stages and aerodynamic heating on the outside as
well as the base heating below the heat shields.
And then I got into orbital mechanics and things like that of orbital heating, not just
a launch vehicle, but once you get a spacecraft into orbit, all the severity of the
environment, and trying to make it comfortable for people.
So Skylab was my first experience in what I call environmental control and life support,
dealing with a crew.
And it was Marshall's first experience in something outside of rockets.
We were doing spacecraft, and then five months later we launched it.
We're recording actually live in the US Space and Rocket Center here in Huntsville, Alabama
for this episode.
And they have a Saturn V in stages hanging this whole giant.
It's real hard work.
Yeah, it's not a shale like the one standing up.
Right, it's a whole wing of the museum where it is just this giant rocket hanging above
your head.
And as someone who didn't work on it, when I walk through there, it always amazes me
when I look up at it.
And I think somebody thought of this and figured out how to make all of these things work.
Do you have that, even though you worked on it?
Still in and off, right?
And I take everyone to the first time we ever fired the booster, the first stage of the Saturn
V, and they have this video there in the alarms going off.
And Bon Brown being told, we're going to fly the whole thing.
All it wants, we're not flying it one stage at a time.
He said, what?
Because he was used to being very methodical.
And George Mueller, the man in charge of human space lights at Nova Warner, he'll never
get to the moon doing it your way, we're going to fire it all at once.
We did that twice, and then the limb and the Apollo system was way behind schedule.
And Houston and Marshall got together and said, we need to do something, the third mission
of the Saturn.
It had worked, designed in, if this goes wrong, this is what we'll do.
If that goes wrong, if that goes wrong twice, this is what we'll do.
We had so much success designed into that rocket, we weren't going to fail.
And so the third mission, Houston proposed to us that we send men to the moon on top
of it.
The first time he put a person on top of it, we sent them to the moon.
We don't have the guts anymore of doing that.
Too risky.
Elon Musk, he fires that super starship thing, it blows up last month.
He's got a new one, another one out, man, and that reminds me of Von Brown, he'd never
condemned his people if it failed.
He said, finally what's wrong with us, do it again, and he was an engineer, engineer.
He bought into, okay, now all the NASA leadership that headquarters was overseas when we concocted
a follow-8.
And we put those boys on top of that rocket, sent them to the moon in December.
Of 68.
And you'd only fired it twice before?
Yeah.
It only launched the whole thing twice.
It worked.
It worked.
It worked.
That took as much courage as Apollo 11, and it was his historic to me, it was hard for
me to believe.
Damn.
There they go.
I wouldn't have wanted to be one of those guys.
And MIT hadn't even worked out the orbital dynamics of stopping the Apollo capsule and
putting in a lunar orbit and then learning how to get it out of lunar orbit and send
it back to Earth.
That software had not been written, you know, software, which is a new word.
Right.
We had no computers.
Nothing like you talk about today.
We used to have to punch cards, thousand cards, and they better all be in order sequentially.
Are you, we're not going to have the computer, you could just kick it out, right?
And you waited another 24 hours, you carried these boxes of trays of cards up to our
computational editor, and in three months, after Apollo 7, we launched Apollo 8, we had
all that done.
It's amazing.
Guts.
Just pure guts and leadership.
And it's coming up and it up in the same way.
We took another giant leap.
Right.
So Skylab happened almost as soon as the lunar successes came to an end, right?
And it was designed to do something of what's next, and Von Brand had always been a vision
there.
And he was selling this thing in 68.
So a year before we were on the, we were actually walking on the moon, we got approval to start
looking.
Let's build a space station in low earth, or we can find out how long can people really
live in space.
So he was a genius and concerned with job security.
Well, let's just say he never lost his appetite for doing the unbelievable.
Right.
You know, you get tired of working on the same thing all the time, especially if you know
it works.
Right.
Be challenged.
You want to do something else.
So the whole idea of trying to take a third stage and make a living ground up and design
a solar observatory, we'd never design.
And Von Brand was out talking to all these world-class astronomers.
And then he'd come back and literally sit down in our little office and say, can we really
do this?
Can you guys prove to me that we're going to give them the solar observatory they really
won't?
Right.
And he'd spent, he'd never announced he was coming.
He'd just call up to my boss and say I'm coming up.
We didn't have viewgrass.
We had flipchars.
So here we, with Scramble is like a nuclear attack on Brown's coming up.
And we'd sit down and start drawing up on charts what we'd learned to date, we'd give
them our pitch.
And both at the ATM level, Apollo Telescope mount, which is a solar observatory, the life
support of the crew living inside and working in space, the biomedical experiments and all
that.
My primary interaction at that time was the Apollo Telescope mount, but it got broader and
broader.
Yeah.
Because engineers, if you really enjoy what you're doing and once you know you've whifted,
bring it on.
What else we've got to do?
Right.
So it's the kind of thing that you've got to have a lot of patience for, not just career
climbing.
I was telling someone while I go to breakfast, we would work out at the arsenal weekend.
We had no air conditioning in these buildings that we were in.
And we would be in T-shirts and sweatin' like pigs and all the paper and stick to you.
It's your desk.
We loved it.
And people used to ask me, do you really ever believe, my wife's grandmother never
thought we went to the moon.
She died at 94.
Tell me.
You can tell me now.
We didn't really go to the moon, did we?
She believed the conspiracy that we never went.
She just couldn't believe it, God's plan, that man would go do that.
You're like, I built the rocket, I told Mama, you know, we really did go so keenly.
You can tell me.
And it didn't always crossroads.
That's wonderful.
They were dying day.
And then a lot of people day still believe the earth is flat.
Right.
It's a passion.
And even when you meet leadership that has more passion than you do, you'd follow them anywhere.
Yeah, yeah.
That's amazing.
So Skylab began as a solar observatory, right?
No, it was a sign to convince ourselves men could leave Earth and survive.
And even come back and still survive.
So the solar observatory was just one of the elements.
Okay.
So scientists bought in.
You needed partners.
Right.
You needed people big in Congress to fund this.
Okay.
And they were just a dimension of, hey, the sun's our life.
Right.
Right.
And we know very little about it.
If we were really going to do this, and Kennedy started it off because it was communism
versus capitalism.
Right.
Versus democracy.
He recognized, he wasn't that much in favor of space exploration, but they were whipping
our ass.
Propaganda.
Yeah.
And it was big.
And people were saying, wow, wow, we had no while.
Right.
But we caught them.
And then we passed them.
They knew we were working on Skylab.
They had a smaller space station, I'll call it, it was called Salute.
It was two people.
They were having all kinds of problems with technical.
But none of us knew how long we could stay in space.
None of us.
Whether it's space radiation or kill them or bring them back in because of the G-Loads
that you're doing reentry.
With the recover after they got back to normal again, it was all kind of question, big
questions.
Why are we investing in something that's never going to happen?
Right.
And we had to find out was it possible.
Skylab was big.
And then it looked like when we lost it.
2023 is the 50th anniversary of the launch of Skylab.
The U.S. Space and Rocket Center in Huntsville, Alabama is celebrating with the summer of Skylab.
A series of presentations, educational panels, and celebrity events taking place through
November of 2023.
Visit RocketCenter.com for more information.
We didn't even know what happened.
We could tell us something bad had happened, right?
And so as my area, I was getting on a bus.
And I found out they've got a problem.
All those honorees were saying, what, what, what, what?
And then you wanted to get back to Huntsville's Quicks, I could.
As the next day, they were supposed to launch the Saturn 1B with a crew.
And I was down there watching two launches, which was going to be great.
So you got to fix it before you can get people in there.
You got to know what's wrong.
Right.
And then you got to say, can I fix it?
And then you got to train the crew to fix it and get up there and fix it.
That was all in 10 days.
Yeah.
So something a lot of people probably don't know is that Skylab didn't launch with people
in it.
No.
We'll tell you the smart things we did that saved our ass when we lost that meteoroid debris
shield.
We were talking about the meteoroid debris not being properly ventilated so that as you
went up the pressure, it wasn't going to blow the thing off.
It was vending.
And we didn't properly design it to vent.
And when it went, the whole array wanted to go.
And you ever stuck your hand out in a car going 60 miles an hour, not 17,000 miles an hour.
Right.
How your hand is just being pulled back, trying to overcome it and keep it.
Right.
Well, those one array just went completely open and got ripped off.
The other one got a strap and it didn't go.
If it had gone, it would have really been in the truck.
But if you understand when you're in low earth orbits, you go into the shadow of the earth
and back out into the sun.
In the Skylab, because it was going to be a solar observatory element there, it always
wanted to be pointed to the sun where you got sunlight coming directly, perpendicular
to the configuration.
In our solar arrays, we're designed for the Apollo telescope mount was a windmill kind
of structure.
And the wings that we put on the workshop were designed, both of them, to wind your pointed
to the sun, those solar arrays are getting maximum solar impact on the solar arrays that
are one, creating electricity to be operating in the sun, two, recharging the batteries that
you got to depend on when you go into the shadow.
Sure.
Because there's no electricity, they don't accept the batteries.
So each one of those systems was designed, with 4,000 watts of electrical energy can
be generated by the ATM, 4,000 watts could be generated by the workshop, 8,000 watts,
plenty of power.
And I was in the meeting when they made the decision, chief engineer, the Apollo telescope
mount, the chief engineer of the orbital workshop, and they said, why don't we cross-strap
our electrical power?
If you ever need some more, I'll give you some, because I got more in the need.
If I ever need some, you can send me some.
This is almost the second.
We'll save each other.
This is a second thought, right?
Yeah.
It was a good thought.
It was just conservatism.
Why not?
And I cross-strap the electricity.
It's like having your generator when the TVA fails.
Yeah.
You know?
I already know.
Everything's still.
You still keeping warm.
But it wasn't part of the original design.
No, it was.
It evolved.
And that's what saved the bus.
Saved us.
Because the ATM was the only one up there with power.
It immediately turned around.
We oriented the workshop and the ATM with the sun, and the mirror and debris shield was
supposed to never be gone, because the surface underneath it was going to absorb tremendous
amount of energy, including the immediate.
So the wall of the workshop got up to 315 degrees outside.
Wow.
Immediately.
Yeah, how does that affect the people inside?
Because if that wall is getting that hot, well, they, they, not only that, but we had a
lot of material inside.
You ever go into a house with a carpet that's new and it's fresh and, and it smells.
Yeah.
Well, that's called contaminants in the atmosphere.
If you heat it up, they'll boil off even more, and it can become very toxic, right?
In a closed habitat where the crew couldn't breathe.
They would die.
And we knew that was increasing.
So when the crew finally did get up there, finally tried to save it, which they did.
They had to go in with the mask on.
Really?
Yeah.
And, because they did not know how toxic was the environment.
They knew it had been very, very, every guy in your car went as hot, and it's just 150
degrees, you know.
Right.
350.
And it would kill them.
And the story of saving it is as big as the story of building it.
You know, all the food that the crew was going to use is up there.
All the film that they had to put into the polytelescope mount, they didn't have all that technology
that beam it down to earth.
That did not exist.
Right.
Everything was recorded on film.
The crew would go out, get that film out of the ATM, store it until they could come
back in the command module, and put some fresh cartridges in there.
Well, it's funny when you look at it at a drawing or a picture of Skylab, people look
at it, and they think, why did they design that so asymmetrical, right?
It looks ugly.
It is very ugly.
It was all compacted.
Right.
When it was put inside of a Saturn V.
It was like a little ball that unfolded.
And then all of a sudden it gets up there, it's like magic.
Right.
You know, all of a sudden unfolded and it's warning you.
But half of it, you know, on one side broke off, or didn't work properly and felt,
you know, was too far off.
Right.
For either it was gone or it couldn't be exposed.
So when you look at those pictures and you see the one large solar panel sticking out,
there was supposed to be a symmetrical one on the other side too.
How did we take pictures of what was actually up there?
Well, it was the military.
You know, either were satellites or were the ground systems, right?
And we were told by the military, here's what's up there.
So you said there was 10 days between when it went up and when people went on.
Yes.
Was that time extended?
Like was it?
We were working as fast as we could.
So they were going.
Not in date.
They were going whether you were here.
So we got photos that had never been talked about.
Where the hell'd you get these photos?
Right.
And we were looking at it and we could see that strap around the other one that didn't
fly off.
Right.
Because it never got properly just deployed.
When we cut that thing, can we use a tree cutter, can we design some tools?
What are we going to do about that exposed surface that we got to point this thing towards
the sun?
Yeah.
We got to get a parasol.
We got to get some kind of temporary cover that will block the sun from hitting that
module.
Right.
And we said we got an airlock.
Let's make a parasol.
Stick it out.
Open it up.
And all that was conceived, built, tested in the neutral buoyancy.
We did everything night and day 24, seven, and we launched the crew.
It was 11 days, exactly.
Was it frustrating to, I mean, because it seems like building the thing and getting it
up is the hard part, right?
Like was it frustrating?
It was like, well, you know how you can mess stuff up and you can just say, well, we lost
it.
Right.
We never had that attitude.
We used to ask me, did you ever really believe you were going to get to the moon?
And I'd tell them, I never had any thought that we weren't.
Never crossed your mind.
Never crossed my mind.
We'll get there.
And yeah, we can do it in this decade.
And we got all the money we wanted.
That's all it took.
Right.
We got it done.
The impossible.
And Ron Brown used to say, use the word impossible with the greatest of caution.
And it's become my motto.
You can do just about anything.
You can conceive of it.
My friends, who were part of my branch, were sleeping on cots at the hospital.
So they could be woke up when something else came up.
Right.
And they were our key leadership.
And by Joe working with Houston and ourselves, and the first crew would come up to our
neutral Williams facility and go through all of the things.
And of course, when they got up there, it didn't work like they thought.
They had the whole peak conrad by his ankles when he stuck his head out of the Apollo
command module.
Yeah.
And they had to bring those wire cutters.
And you can imagine, you ever seen a tree where you finally cut it and then it swings
back and knocks you out of the tree, right?
Well, they knew that when they cut that thing, it was going to spring out.
That was where it was designed.
Right.
And they just had to know what's going to happen to the cluster, or the control moment
gyro is going to hold it stable enough, or is it going to start spinning?
Yeah.
Yeah.
All kinds of things that were still the unknown.
They did it.
They saved it.
Tell me about what you did in the design of Skylab specifically.
What was your role in?
I had three roles, everybody that could handle more than one area of responsibility.
My biggest role was designing the thermal control system for the Apollo telescope, man.
It had two key designs.
They used the limb structure, the octagonal structure that the limb module landed in.
As a base of a lot of equipment, the batteries, the control moment gyros, a lot of equipment
that wasn't on the canister that was inside that octagon.
And the canister could rotate, you know, so maybe not 360 because it fluid joints and
all that.
Right.
But my goal was designing the passive system so they could work in hot and cold environments
and the canister that it would work for maintaining the 70 degrees plus or minus the tenth of
the degree, trying to reject 500 watts inside the different instruments working.
They had eight instruments and four quadrants, two instruments per quadrant, mounted to an aluminum
cruciform.
I worked right up to taking the whole ATM down to Houston, putting it in the chamber and
beaming it with their big solar system.
It couldn't simulate the correct space environment, but you could simulate a response of a controlled
environment to that.
And then you could correct your models if we didn't have that right, so that we could
then take it to the dynamic environment and see.
And one of the things Von Brown was very concerned about, and he came and talked to us more than
wants.
And in one time when I was presenting, we're ready to build our flight hardware now.
He says, have you considered a heat pipe because what we had was a canister that fluid
flowed through, and it would try to reject the heat from a radiator mounted on the outside,
but it had a pump that was attached to the canister.
You know any pump you can hold your hand on his vibrate, and he brought up in that meeting
from hundreds of people to me.
If you considered the jitter problem you got, and the jitter is doing that, and it totally
destroys your stability.
Yeah, and you're trying to look at the heat pipe, and you know what the heat pipe was.
It was technology he'd read about and mechanics illustrated or something.
And I said, no, sir, we're heading like I need what he's talking about.
And he said, would you look at that?
I'm very worried about the pump and its stability, not to vibrate the canister.
I said, yes, sir, we look at that.
I let him.
I said, what's a heat pipe?
So you couldn't, but you couldn't just go back and Google it.
Well, no, no, it was in secret documents.
That's right.
It wasn't that serious.
It was new technology.
Yeah.
Anyway, we looked at it all, and we convinced him the next time I had to stand up in front
of him.
I promise you that we have vibration isolated this pump.
It is not going to create a jitter problem.
And he said, fine, but I found out you couldn't verify the heat pipe technology on this
large restructure in a 1G environment.
So I told him, I told him the story, we went and did our homework, and we got back to
him.
He said, understand.
Okay, go ahead.
But point that says a lot about about him, you know, his, his trust.
Trust you.
Yeah, like, you know, he's going to ask the questions, you know, go check this out.
Sometimes he knows the answer.
He just fun shows.
He knows the answer.
And he knew gravity would be a problem in verify.
I said, be a great risk that we built this thing, and we slowed everything down.
Yeah.
To go build this, but we could never prove to ourselves it would probably work.
It would all be analytical hope.
Right.
Yeah.
So same thing in crew comfort, the medical people had a human body, a thermal model of how
the body is going to respond to different thermal environments and humidity and clothing
and inhalation levels and comfort boxes.
And that's been a lot of time trying to please the medical community that we were designing
the environmental control and my support system.
That's one of the pictures we were looking at a while ago.
Yeah.
We got an altitude chamber, five PSI.
The diffusers and the floor, because we turned the Skylab workshop upside down a few months
before we flew.
You can imagine it.
That's another heroic thing.
So all of a sudden our ventilation was coming from the floor.
So you designed it upright one direction.
And then just before you just decided the floor was going to be this way.
You had a lot of ration, good ration now besides us.
And so we went and tested it.
Well, the ventilation in the floor and found it's no problem.
So the crew did or the test subject didn't feel so you didn't flip everything.
You only flipped what was necessary.
Section called the crew quarters.
That was a second thing that was heavily involved in.
In the third was biomedical experiments, which were all throughout the orbital workshop
and all the experimentation on humans and their survivability and space.
They needed their temperature control and everything that equipment would know over 10.
Right.
That's the temperature inside of Skylab.
Comfortable.
It was about comfortable.
We had to derive a comfort box and we just stayed between 72 and 74 degrees Fahrenheit.
The ventilation levels, when air is thinner, it can blow on you and it doesn't feel
draughty because it's thin.
That's interesting.
You wouldn't think about it if it were coming out cool because you had to pick up heat
in the workshop from the lights, the humans and just stuff radiating it.
So we had to prove ourselves we had a thermostat that would work.
And if the crew wanted to go in shorts and get a little warmer, it's okay.
Just change the thermostat.
So we had to prove to ourselves it would all work cool.
So those were the three things.
One of the main goals was to prove that humans could just survive in space for a whole
range, not just survive, but function, you know, successfully and then be returned safely
back to this environment.
Two weeks, the Gemini went two weeks.
All the timelines we had and contingencies we had of going to the moon and getting back,
it wouldn't be more than two weeks.
Right.
Obviously it was around 10 days too.
And Skylab was how long?
28 days of first mission.
They got back okay and then we launched, the next crew was 56 days and then we launched
the last crew for 84 days.
All the water was stored on board the workshop.
All the water that ever made like a water tank.
None of the new arrivals brought water, they brought food with, but they didn't bring
a lot.
Most of the time, if they brought some food, it was supplemental, but it was already
up there.
Wow.
And all their clothing was up there for the next crew, the next crew, they're all different.
Everything was there, waiting on them to show up and start doing their thing up there,
which was solar observatory.
They had controlling display panels, they could see what the cameras were seeing or the
telescope.
Sure.
How large was this space, the crew compartment?
The whole volume was about a 747, but no, most people don't have a concept of volume
when you say so many cubic feet or they used to square feet or something like that.
There is no up and down in space and so you use the whole volume.
It was massive compared to the solute.
It was, even the command service module compared to the Soyuz module.
If you ever see Apollo Soyuz mission data, you see how big we were compared to how small.
They were little tiny.
They were really cramped in and it was a huge undertaking and it ended up being extremely
successful.
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You were part of the design of that and once it went up, you were kind of, that was kind
of the...
I was going over the next thing after this.
What was next?
I said one of the things that the whole program was like was, what's next, what's next?
When I'm giving tours at the Space Museum, people have asked me, of this whole thing in
the Davidson Center, what did we recover?
I'll take them down the Apollo 16 capsule and I said, that's all we got back.
Everything else was gone.
What I began to work on was a space shuttle of what are we going to fly in the space shuttle
to justify building something reusable.
So Marshall started trying to build a laboratory inside a pressurized habitat and some unpressurized
pallets in the shuttle payload and fly that back and forth and bring all the results back
after one week or two weeks, but we're only going to stay the shuttle, couldn't stay
longer than two weeks, right?
So I was assigned, go help design that habitat and environmental control system and then
all of a sudden Europe got involved, said, I want to be involved in human space life.
So after two years of us doing an in-house, NASA said, we can't afford building both
of these.
European said, they've built us our space lab.
If we let them fly their astronauts and do their thing in space.
So it's agreed to and I became the lead environmental control life person for space lab.
I spent a lot of time in Europe over seven years and I eventually became the environmental
control life support system branch chief and some great people that had been toward
me.
Three generations.
It's not easy doing space exploration.
The sky lab proved to me and I think people are a lot smarter than me.
We can survive in space.
Did you ever think, you know, 55 years ago when all of this was getting started and you're
beginning your career, like, did you ever think that one day you'd be hearing about people
being prepared to go to Mars?
Yeah.
You did.
I always felt like, why not?
I believe in warp speed.
Everybody said, no, no, you can't go fast in the speed a lot.
I said, if you can imagine, you can, we just don't know how.
It's the word impossible, very careful edge, right?
You know, when I document that and I reflect on it, I'm a base myself.
I got to be part of that.
I've got a spaceship that I'm waiting for.
I'm flying up to the star.
I'm gonna dare to explore this time and I'll let you know what I find.