I'm Dr. Romany and I am back with season two of my podcast, Navigating Narcissism.
This season we dive deeper into highlighting red flags and spotting a narcissist before
they spot you.
Each week you'll hear stories from survivors who have navigated through toxic relationships,
gaslighting, love bombing, and their process of healing.
Listen to navigating narcissism on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your
podcasts.
What if I told you that much of the forensic science you see on shows like CSI isn't based
on actual science, and the wrongly convicted pay a horrific price?
Two decibels isn't a life without parole.
My youngest, I was incarcerated two days after her first birthday.
Listen to CSI on trial on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your
podcasts.
What would you do if a secret cabal of the most powerful folks in the United States told
you, hey, let's start a coup.
Back in the 1930s, a Marine named Smedley Butler was all that stood between the US and
fascism.
I'm Ben Bullen.
I'm Alex French.
And I'm Smedley Butler.
Join us for this sordid tale of ambition, treason, and what happens when evil tycoons
have too much time on their hands.
So let's start a coup on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you find your
favorite shows.
Hi, Catherine.
Oh, hi, Chelsea.
Hi, I guess we're at snow 20 inches last night.
Oh, my gosh, this has been Whistler.
My orca.
Oh, no.
No.
Are you serious?
20 foot waves.
They have what are they called manholes?
Or what are those called when they're on the streets cave in?
Is that called a manhole?
I mean, the island is not prepared for snow.
Maybe in the mountains, 20 inches of snow.
And so they told everyone to stay in.
Yeah.
Don't go outside.
It was on the Daily Mail.
It popped up on my Instagram this morning.
And not that I read the Daily Mail because I don't.
But we don't want to spread that.
No, we don't.
But my orca, I think, just comes to me.
You know, since her phones are all eavesdropping on me.
Can you believe that?
It is snowing.
I'm in Whistler right now, and it is snowing.
Well, it's snowed last week in Los Angeles in my backyard.
So that's the whole thing.
The world is over, everyone.
So we're just going to end this podcast right now because everyone should just take shelter.
Goodbye.
Hope you have enough hemonebarico to get you through.
Oh my god.
That's insane.
I know.
And I've heard LA is just the worst right now.
Oh my god.
It's been like pouring rain.
My puppies have been like trying to potty train them.
They're like, there's nowhere to go.
It's flooded.
So that's been interesting.
It's awesome.
Kids surfing down the street in a Tupperware bucket the other day.
There was like the rivers going down the street and the gutters.
And then there was a kid pulling another kid on a mini bike.
And the other kid was in like a Tupperware tub.
And they were just exhuming down the street.
So that's the state of the fairs right now.
Yeah.
If you can't have a little fun in a Tupperware tub, where can you find it?
We went night skiing the other night.
After my birthday, we all decided it was snowing, snowing.
It's snowed like 20 centimeters, whatever that means in America.
And we were like all together.
We went to apre.
And then everyone's like, let's go up to the top of the parking lots
and have someone drop us off.
And then we could just ski down at night because it was all fresh.
Oh my god.
And so like 10 of us did it.
It was so much fun.
Oh my god.
There is nothing better than being in the snow at night.
I don't know why.
I know.
It's so beautiful.
It is.
Oh my god.
It's so beautiful.
And I also had a great birthday this year.
Again.
I love celebrating my birthday in Whistler.
It's got all my ingredients.
Skiing, apre, skiing margaritas, skiing.
Other margaritas.
Oh, and I had my niece Charlie up here who was a dream boat.
Oh my god.
She's ridiculous.
She is just so cute and funny.
And we skied.
We had her charging by the end of the weekend.
Well, she was here for like four days, but solo.
And then my friend Nick, who is my director on Chelsea Does,
she was my DP.
She came up and it was just so fun.
I love having one on one time with my nieces and nephews.
It's the best.
I got shut down by a niece.
This week.
Rejection from children, this fierce.
I know.
Teenagers are trouble.
Another reason not to have them.
You know?
Exactly.
Exactly.
It's like if they're tiny, they're pooping.
If they're three, they're mean to you, right?
Terrible twos, terrible threes.
And then they turn into teenagers immediately after that.
But no one tells you they start smelling it like eight.
Smelling?
Yeah, they start smelling bad at like eight.
Well, the boys.
Oh, I don't know.
Really?
Girls start smelling?
Really?
I think girls start getting sick.
Oh, oh, like, so rude.
It's a tricky situation.
Yeah.
I was speaking of smelly.
I went three days without taking a shower and skiing while I was up here because we had
such a full house and it was nonstop action.
And finally, like yesterday or the day before, everyone left and we went skiing again.
I was like, okay.
And then I was like, okay, guys, I'm going home after skiing today.
Like no, Apry.
Like I'm wrecked for my birthday.
I'm so tired.
My body's aching.
We had a huge powder day.
So my thighs were burning.
Yeah.
And then of course, you know, they persuaded me to go to Apry to waste my art.
Cut to one in the morning.
I'm getting dropped off at my house and we had adopted a giant baby, my friend, Kelly
and I.
Her friend, we've decided he was our baby and he had to come sleep in one of our extra
guest rooms.
And I was like, wait, what happened?
It's like the whole day got away from me.
That's how it goes.
I know.
I'm wondering.
So yesterday, so I'm hibernating this week until my next batch of visitors come, which
is Friday.
And then we got you out of bed at seven in the morning or so.
That's okay.
You know, I get up early anyway.
I'm always up.
Okay.
So our guest today has a book out that you may have read.
It's called Going There.
Her daily newsletter is called Wake Up Call.
I get that every morning.
It's a mix of news, culture and advice.
She's the EP, which is an executive producer of the New Documentary, no ordinary campaign,
which is debuting at South by Southwest.
And she is host of her podcast, which is called Next Question.
Please welcome Katie Kirk.
Hi.
Katie, what are you doing on the floor?
Oh, because you don't have a place to do this.
So I'm just going to sit on the floor.
And honestly, it'll be fine.
It's all be comfortable.
What are you two girls up to that you have that you're both sleeping in the same room
and have nowhere else to record?
She's not sleeping in here.
She's sleeping in the guest room.
But we're in this big kind of echoey house and we thought this would be the best room.
Is it?
Is it okay?
Yeah, well of course.
But the bed is right there.
It looks so weird, Adriana.
But I think it's a good look for you, Katie.
It'll switch things up.
People will be surprised.
And by the way, my dad would say it looked like I combed my hair with an egg beater.
Hi.
Hi.
Hi.
Hi.
Hi.
Hi.
This is Catherine, my producer.
I know Catherine.
Hi, Catherine.
Hi, Katie.
You guys know each other because she's going to be working with you now.
She's going to be helping us.
Which is so amazing.
She's so great at my yelling.
Oh, sorry.
I'm yelling.
Oh, that's nice that you have someone who will tell you that.
Oh, my God.
Katie, where did we start?
Let's figure this out.
How did we first meet?
Was it an interview?
I think it might have been an interview.
I'm trying to remember when I took you to the White House correspondent.
Oh, yes.
That was really.
That was our first date.
It was.
I just reached out to you because I thought you were fun and funny and that you would
get a kick out of going to the White House correspondent's dinner.
Which we did.
We got a big kick out of it.
That was a fun night.
Remember we ended up in a car with two real randoms?
I don't even remember.
I remember who.
Do you remember who they were?
I don't remember.
The whole thing is a little bit of a blur to me, but I remember it was cute, Chelsea,
because you were very nervous.
Do you remember that?
No, no, no, no.
Tell me.
You were kind of, I think you felt out of your element and you had never been to something
like that and you were just a little, a little jittery and it was really sweet.
And who else came that year?
Was that the year Betty White came and she was also my guest?
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, we all sat at the same table.
Yeah.
So I felt like I had the coolest table in the room.
That's a cool event, actually.
The White House correspondent's dinner.
It's really, really like a fun, fun night because it's not a lot of Republicans go,
if any.
And so that's always a win.
Well, that was sort of back in the day.
It was pretty bipartisan, honestly.
And I think when Trump became president, I think they stopped having them, then there
was the pandemic.
And so it used to be a really kind of jocular bipartisan affair.
And it was really fun because the president gets up and makes a really funny speech.
And it was a lot of fun.
And then I think we went to the party.
Did we go to the party at the French Embassy that Bloomberg usually hosted or used to host?
Yes, yes.
That's where we went.
I remember us being in a car with someone really, really famous, like a famous director
or somebody.
I can't even remember.
Oh, yeah.
I can't remember either.
Who was that?
And then I looked to my left and it was another random and I just thought this is one of those
nights, but we've had a couple of those nights because we had our Woody Allen night, which
we've both talked about where we accidentally had dinner with Woody Allen and Suni and some
other unmentionables.
Should we retell that story?
Because, or do you feel like everybody's heard it?
I know you put it in your comedy routine.
I think everybody has heard it, but I mean, there's no re you know what you tell it because
I haven't heard you tell it.
I'm accepting the book, of course.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, I was working at CBS News.
It was, I believe, was it January or February or something like that in the winter?
Chelsea, you and I had made plans to have dinner, which I was really looking forward
to.
I got an email from Peggy Segal, who was this sort of big publicist who's kind of fallen
from grace now.
And she said, would you like to have dinner at the largest single family home in Manhattan?
And I was like, well, that sounds intriguing.
You know, the interesting to see some big beautiful home where people usually live in
pretty small apartments in New York City.
So I said, okay, great.
And she said, it's going to be honoring Prince Andrew.
George Stephanopoulos is going to be there.
And she mentioned some other news people.
And I thought, oh boy, well, the royal wedding was coming up that spring.
And William and Kate were getting married.
And I thought, you know, any end to a member of the royal family is a good end.
Well, that turns out that's terrible.
Whoopsie doodle.
That's what that's what she said.
But anyway, so I thought, gosh, I should probably go to this.
And I called you and I said, Chelsea, I've just been invited to this dinner.
Do you want to go?
It sounds like it might be interesting.
It's for Prince Andrew.
I don't know if I even mentioned that when I called you.
I think I must have.
And I said, do you want to go?
And you were like, sure, why not?
So I was dating someone at the time.
So he came to.
It turns out, and I googled him as I almost got there.
I think I met you there.
But I remember googling Jeffrey Epstein and thinking, oh, well, he was convicted of something
in Florida.
It sounded sleazy, but it didn't sound horrible and criminal and disgusting as now we know
his behavior was.
So I thought, oh, this is pretty sketchy, but I guess I'm in now.
And so we walked in and there was this whole assortment of people, including George Deppinopoulos.
I believe Charlie Rose was there.
And yes, Woody Allen and SUNY.
And it was probably about, what would you say, Chelsea, like 24 people?
Oh, I remember it being so much smaller.
But you know, my memory is not great because I didn't even remember that you brought a
date.
So really?
Yeah.
Was it John?
No, it was Brooks, the young guy who was dating at the time.
Okay.
Okay.
So it was a small party, like eight or 10 people.
No, no, no.
Well, I think actually it was probably somewhere between 10 and 24.
I think I only remember the key players is why I remember it.
I remember Charlie Rose walking out just shit-faced, leaving his coat and then coming back an hour
later because you and I were leaving and apparently Brooks, we were leaving and then he came back
and he was kind of like walking down the street, very disoriented.
And he was like, I'm looking for my coat.
I'm like, oh, I had no idea.
So many people were such a hot mess, you know?
I was like, Charlie Rose acts like this at that time.
He was a respectable newsman too.
So I remember that much from the night, but I remember kind of sitting and I almost think
like a horseshoe shaped table situation, maybe in the living room.
And I titled that chapter of my book, lasagna was served because they serve lasagna in these
sort of shallow bowls.
And then before that, he kind of given us a tour of the house.
And I remember he had those stubs and gluten velvet slippers on and torn jeans and like
a velvet, maybe a velvet blazer and he was holding a drink.
And I really didn't know very much about him.
I remember the artwork being weird, but after dinner, that's when you went up to Woody Allen.
I was at the end of dinner because I remember the living era.
We were all seated because I kept from seeing all these people walk in.
You know, when I saw Woody Allen and SUNY walk in, I remember going, whoa, whoa, whoa,
what is this?
And then I didn't obviously know Jeffrey either Epstein.
I knew Prince Andrew.
I know who Peggy Segal is.
Yeah.
And I don't remember him being there at all, George Stonie.
Really?
No, Charlie Rose is the other person I remember.
And then I feel like there was one other.
But I know when you just said that, I was like, oh, he was there?
Yeah.
Well, that's great to know.
Good information.
What a high ratio of predators.
I know.
When I look back, I'm like, oh my God, almost every person in that room was canceled.
Yeah.
Felt like the den of Iniquity or something.
But after dinner, Chelsea, everyone was sort of sitting around.
And I remember seeing a friend of mine who's a doctor who knew Jeffrey Epstein talking
to him and a female doctor, really beautiful woman.
And then Chelsea walks up to Woody Allen and SUNY.
And I don't think I heard you say it.
You just told me later and said, I, you know, I'm Chelsea Handler.
And you started chit chatting and you said, how did you two meet?
Now you knew how they met, right?
You were just, well, of course I was giving it to him.
But it was at dinner when we were getting dessert.
We were seated at the table because I was seated right across from them.
And I was next to you.
You were on my right and they were across from me.
And the whole time at dinner, all I was waiting was to say something to him because as a woman,
I was like, there's no way that I'm not going to say something to him to make him know that
he's out completely out of line.
But you did hear me because you said, okay, Chelsea, time to go.
Katie mentioned that this happened.
I was like, wait, that was real.
She really said that it wasn't just a bit.
I just figured it was like a bit.
Oh, no, it was a bit that part.
That part I remember perfectly because I, because I had to contain myself for so long
throughout the dinner to not embarrass everybody.
You know what I mean as a guest, I was like, how do I play this?
And I remember it because I was talking to Woody Allen during the dinner, trying to be
friendly and we were talking about stand up and movies and all of the, and I was like,
oh, and then I was like, don't, don't do this.
Don't get sucked in and think that you like somebody.
You don't like this person.
You don't like them.
I had to have this internal dialogue with myself the whole time.
Yeah.
And I was definitely tipsy because I'm me.
One weird thing I remember is when we left, Brooks looked at me and said, did you notice
how young the girls were who were taking our coats?
Oh, God.
So he noticed.
Well he didn't.
He mentioned it to me.
So now in hindsight, that's a very perceptive and really upsetting comment.
Mm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then we've been through, we've hung out a lot of times because we had boyfriends
that both had places, right?
We were both spending time in shelter Island for a while.
You were about to get married and I've met your daughters who, you know, are fabulous.
And so yeah, we've known each other for many, many years.
Yeah.
And of course I follow you from afar and love watching you not only with your standup,
but I'm obsessed with your Instagram.
So I enjoyed watching you skiing and your bikini recently.
You're a good skier Chelsea.
Oh, thanks.
I've been, you know what Katie?
I've been working so hard at becoming a good skier.
It was like my dream as a little kid.
I was like, I just want to be a great skier.
Well, you have very good form in every way.
But you know, when did you start?
Because I started skiing at 45.
I'm 66 now and I can ski okay.
Like I can do semi easy blue, but I have never felt that freedom, that total relaxation
that good skiers feel.
Yeah.
It's just time spent, right?
I bought a place in Whistler and I just spent months here.
At a time and just skiing over and over with an instructor, you know, a former racer who's
giving me technique.
So I'm not just running around the mountain like a lunatic and that's helped a lot too.
I think part of the problem Chelsea is I only ski once a year.
Yeah.
It's hard to improve when you're, you know, put the effort in or you don't have the time.
I have to tell you my instructor is my father-in-law Herb and Herb is 91 and he, oh, don't tell
anyone.
He's still a ski instructor in Aspen.
Oh my God.
Really?
How cute is that?
He is, well, he is the most amazing person.
I mean, he is an incredible shape.
Not only does he carry his skis, he carries mine.
He is obviously an excellent skier.
He's been doing this for like 40 years.
He was in business and he cashed out and his boys, one of whom is my husband, thought,
oh, he's going to do this for a little while.
But no, 45 or 50 years later.
He's still doing it and he's just amazing and he's so much fun to be with and he has helped
me become a mediocre skier.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I like mountain culture, you know, like I like the idea of going for a run, having
a nice leisurely lunch, then going for more skiing and then apry.
Like I just, I'm home every night by 730 or 8 o'clock mostly.
And you're exhausted, right?
Exhausted.
And then I get a massage or I read at night.
I mean, I'm just so happy in my little winter cabin life that I've created for myself.
So yeah.
Awesome.
Are you there by yourself?
Do you bring friends or people come through?
I bet your sister comes, right?
Yeah.
My niece was just here for my birthday.
My friends were here.
They just all left.
So then I have a couple of down days and then I have a new group coming in this weekend.
Fun.
So yeah, people come through all the time.
It's really fun.
Oh, that's great.
Where have you been spending your vacation time?
Do you guys go to the Hamptons mostly in that area?
Right now we're in a rental property in Los Angeles.
So for the past five or six years during the dog days of winter in New York, we've usually
come out here for six weeks to two months because now when you can work remotely and
now that we have our own company and everything, I don't have to be in a studio.
So that's been a really nice change of pace, but it is the weather Chelsea here.
I know.
I can't believe you just said you were in LA.
I would have thought you were going to say you were in the Hamptons or something.
It is so bad in LA right now.
It's the worst time.
I have a very good piece of good news to report because it's sunny right now and I can't believe
it.
Adriana who works with me, who's here for a couple of days, said she feels like she's
taken a party drug.
I'm Dr. Romany and I am back with season two of my podcast, Navigating Narcissism.
Narcissists are everywhere and their toxic behavior in words can cause serious harm to
your mental health.
In our first season, we heard from Eileen Charlotte who was loved by the Tinder Swindler.
The worst part is that he can only be guilty for stealing the money from me, but he cannot
be guilty for the mental part he did and that's even way worse than the money he took.
I am here to help.
On the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
What would you do if a secret cabal of the most powerful folks in the United States told
you, hey, let's start a coup.
Back in the 1930s, a Marine named Smedley Butler was all that stood between the US and
fascism.
I'm Ben Bullock and I'm Alex French.
In our newest show, we take a darkly comedic and occasionally ridiculous steep dive into
a story that has been buried for nearly a century.
We've tracked down exclusive historical records.
We've interviewed the world's foremost experts.
We're also bringing you cinematic historical recreations of moments left out of your history
books.
I'm Smedley Butler and I got a lot to say.
For one, my personal history is raw, inspiring and mind-blowing.
And for another, do we get the mattresses after we do the ads or do we just have to do the
ads?
From I Heart Podcast and School of Humans, this is Let's Start a Coup.
Listen to Let's Start a Coup on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you find
your favorite shows.
What if I told you that much of the forensic science you see on shows like CSI isn't based
on actual science?
The problem with forensic science in the criminal legal system today is that it's an awful
lot of forensic and not an awful lot of science.
And the wrongly convicted pay a horrific price.
Two death sentences and a life without parole.
My youngest, I was incarcerated two days after her first birthday.
I'm Molly Herman.
Join me as we put forensic science on trial to discover what happens when a match isn't
a match and when there's no science in CSI.
How many people have to be wrongly convicted before they realize that this stuff's all
bogus.
It's all made up.
Listen to CSI on trial on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your
podcasts.
So let's talk about John and talk about your marriage a little bit because you guys have
a very great thing going and he's a great support ballast for your life as well as you
to his.
Well, we're going to talk about your cancer advocacy work also because you lost your first
husband to cancer.
You lost your sister.
And this is a very important kind of lifelong project for you.
Just so I feel part of the whole mission, I got cancer too.
Exactly.
So tell us what the update on that is.
The cancer or John?
Well, let's talk about the cancer first.
Okay.
All right.
I kind of ruined the flow, didn't I?
Let's talk about your health first.
My health is good.
And by the way, Katie, let me just interrupt.
I had no idea you were 66 years old.
You are so cute.
You have never not.
And I know that you talked about in your book how annoying it is to be cute, but I have
to say like you have one of those faces that you will never look old.
I don't know about that, Chelsea.
No, you don't.
You just look, you always look young.
It doesn't matter what your age is.
I do have kind of a young vibe, kind of a lively young vibe.
So thank you.
You're nice to say that.
In terms of my health, I'm fine.
Knockwood, only because when I was diagnosed with this, Chelsea, I wasn't that surprised
because cancer has been such a fixture in my life.
But I felt so lucky because both Jay and Emily were diagnosed with stage four cancer.
And it's all about when you're diagnosed.
That's why then on my sort of relentless advocacy about screening because if you detect cancer
early, that's when it's most treatable, right?
When it hasn't metastasized, would it hasn't spread through your body and landed on another
organ.
So I didn't realize I hadn't gone for my annual mammogram.
I went and got a mammogram.
I didn't expect anything weird.
But my breast radiologist, who's I think one of the best in the world, Susan Drostman
said, you know how the technician calls the doctor in and they're looking at the scan.
And I have always gotten a ultrasound because I've buried dense breasts, which can only
be indicated on a mammogram.
And 45% of women, 40 and over, have what are considered dense breasts.
And dense breasts mean that the breast density, the tissue, shows up white in the mammogram.
So it makes it very hard for the radiologist to identify a tumor or an abnormality.
As Susan says, it's like looking for a snowball against a backdrop of snow.
So I've always gotten breast ultrasounds and we were videotaping it to do a little tape
piece on the importance of getting screened.
And Adriana, who's here with me now, who's sort of, we're like frickin' frack, she,
Susan said, you need to stop filming.
You know, she was just filming on her iPhone and we were just going to put together a little
piece.
And I said, no, it's okay.
She can keep filming.
And she's like, no, tell her to stop.
And so she said, I see something very suspicious.
I'm going to do a biopsy this afternoon and you stick around.
Long story short, it was after getting a lumpectomy, a stage 1A hormone receptor positive
breast tumor.
So I got radiation for 15 days, a lumpectomy prior to the radiation.
And then you take something called an aromatase inhibitor for five years, which suppresses
the estrogen.
The biggest bummer about this.
So my cancer, as my surgeon said, is the good one.
It's not only treatable, it's curable.
The only bummer about it is I desperately miss my estrogen.
Well, that's my next question.
Yes.
How does that affect someone of your age?
Because we need HRT at a certain age, right?
Yes.
Well, I had been on hormone replacement therapy, although my doctor says she does not think
that contributed to my breast cancer.
But I was on the patch for probably 10 years.
So I had to take the patch off immediately.
And now I take these pills that further suppress estrogen.
And what can I say?
It sucks.
Estrogen is a wonderful mode.
It helps with brain fog.
It helps with skin dryness, dryness everywhere, if you know what I'm saying.
And so it's not fun, but it's a small price to pay considering what other people go through.
What have been the worst kind of or the biggest side effects that you've had?
I think I have very dry skin.
And when I was a little girl, I had eczema on my arms.
And so I was starting to get really dry skin even when I was on the patch.
So I think it's just made it worse.
And so that's really the most significant.
I know it sounds stupid, but it's bothersome.
Does it help if you're just constantly lathering up your face with serum moisturizer?
It does.
I don't do that.
I'm kind of lazy and I'm just a planned and I'll do it after I get out of the shower.
And then it's just not something I do.
I should do it every night before I go to bed and all that.
But I'm usually too tired and too lazy.
But I haven't noticed a problem with brain fog.
Sometimes I like a lot of people my agent, anyone my age listening will know that I kind
of have to think of words or I don't quite have the recall I used to have.
I saw somebody at Craig's the other night who's a very big guy and the TV industry.
And I was like, oh, I can't remember his name.
And then I saw LaBar Burton, which was very exciting.
But so I really haven't noticed much of a change.
And you know, it's hard because as you get older, it's hard to parse out like what's
causing what?
And I'm stiff and my joints are kind of stiff.
I do a lot of Pilates, but is that because of the estrogen that I'm not taking or is it
just sort of a natural part of aging?
So one of the things I really wanted to come out of my breast cancer diagnosis is I want
women to A, find out if they have dense breasts, to be their own advocates, find out if they
have dense breasts and then ask if they can do additional screening because a lot of breast
cancers are missed in women with dense breasts because mammograms aren't sufficient.
So I went down to Capitol Hill and did a press conference with a congresswoman from Connecticut
named Rosa Deloro.
She introduced legislation.
John makes fun of me.
Goes, who do you think you are?
Nancy Pelosi.
But she introduced legislation that will require insurance companies to cover breast
ultrasounds in women with dense breasts because right now many of them don't.
And of course, many women can't afford it.
So I just want women to really be smart about their testing and make sure that they get
all the screening they need.
Thank you for this public service announcement on keeping them.
No, thank you for this public service announcement.
Let's talk about your relationship and meeting someone later in life in the way that you
did and how that's impacted your family dynamic with your girls and with you and how this
is different.
You know, obviously then your prior relationship, every relationship is different.
So some of the highs and like inspirational things that you can share with us for people
who are listening.
Well, it's been a joy and I really, I'm so happy that I met John and that we found each
other.
You know, he's just good company.
He's fun to be with.
Of course, occasionally we get on each other's nerves.
He bugs me.
I bug him.
But he's really, he's just a solid person.
He is a happy person.
He loves adventure.
Although he, he's kind of boring with his restaurant choices.
We go kind of a square mile around our apartment.
I'm like, I'm like, we'll make it up a little bit.
But he's got a great family.
They have been an additional gift.
He's one of three boys and you know, I love his parents.
Both my parents have died and Jay's parents died a number of years ago.
So Herbie and Paula treat Ellie and Carrie like their granddaughters.
I mean, they really think of them as their granddaughters.
You know, it was hard because Ellie, Carrie and I were like the three musketeers for so
long and when we got engaged, they came out to the Hamptons and I took them into a room
and I showed them my engagement ring and they both burst into tears.
And they weren't really happy tears.
I think they were just shocked and worried that this was going to change things.
But of course it hasn't.
He's just enriched our lives and he's got two wonderful kids as well.
And we're too old to be the Brady bunch.
You know, my kids are grown.
His kids are grown.
But they all have a really nice relationship and I just feel extraordinarily lucky.
But I tell everyone since I know this is an advice show is, you know, you have to be
intentional.
If you want a partner and I'm kind of a partner person, you have to tell people, you have
to ask people.
So when I asked my friend Molly how fit at spinning class, if her husband, who was the
chief of trauma surgery at the hospital for special surgery, I said, Molly, does Dave
know any doctors?
I'm so interested in medicine and science.
I've learned so much about cancer.
I think I'd enjoy dating a doctor.
And she said, we don't have, I don't think we know any doctors, but we do know this banker
named John Moeller.
And I was like, does he have a pulse?
Has he been to, has he ever been to a doctor?
Because that was a place.
And so he finally called me and he was funny, you know, right away.
He just had an easiness and a fun personality.
And I just liked him immediately.
He felt comfortable.
He was from Chicago.
I like Midwesterners Chelsea.
They're just a little different in a good way.
They're just less pretentious.
I know that's such a generalization about millions of people.
But anyway, so it's all worked out and I'm really happy.
And as I said, I feel very, very, very lucky.
And also I think what you said as a salient point is having your girl's reaction, thinking
there's going to be some sort of subtraction.
And instead there's an enhancement and addition.
Everything he's bringing to the table is actually wonderful.
His parents, you know, his kids, all of those things and those elements.
His intelligence, you know, he's the CEO of our company.
He's got, he's a great businessman.
You know, working with your partner spouse is not always easy.
And we're both pretty strong willed.
But his skills in building this company, Chelsea, we have like 40 plus employees.
We're working with purpose driven brands.
I have a podcast.
We have a newsletter.
We have a million subscribers.
Newsletter, which is great, you guys.
I read it every single morning.
Thank you, Chelsea.
Wake up call.
It's called.
So if you haven't signed up for that, please do.
It's a great way to get your news in the morning and it's got a mix of everything.
So it's not like just, you're just reading about politics.
It's got like pop culture.
And health and wellness.
Yes, and human interest stories, all of those things.
So yeah, you go to katiekurt.com to sign up.
Shame was plug.
But anyway, that's that's John.
Yeah.
Well, thank you for making sure we spoke about him.
Okay.
So we have a couple of letters that people have written in and then we, I think we have
one live call, Kathy.
Tell us what we're in store for.
Well, we, I mean, it's all on the themes that we've touched on today.
It's relationships and starting over.
It's breast cancer.
So Katie, I know you have talked about it all.
So I thought these questions would be perfect for you.
Okay, great.
Great.
Yeah.
But we'll take a quick break and we'll be right back with Katie and Chelsea.
I'm Dr. Romany and I am back with season two of my podcast, navigating narcissism.
Narcissists are everywhere and their toxic behavior and words can cause serious harm
to your mental health.
In our first season, we heard from Eileen Charlotte, who was loved by the Tinder swindler.
The worst part is that he can only be guilty for stealing the money from me, but he cannot
be guilty for the mental part he did.
And that's even way worse than the money he took.
But I am here to help.
As a licensed psychologist and survivor of narcissistic abuse myself, I know how to identify
the narcissist in your life.
Each week, you will hear stories from survivors who have navigated through toxic relationships,
gaslighting, love bombing, and the process of their healing from these relationships.
Listen to navigating narcissism on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your
podcasts.
What would you do if a secret cabal of the most powerful folks in the United States told
you, Hey, let's start a coup.
Back in the 1930s, a Marine named Smedley Butler was all that stood between the US and
fascism.
I'm Ben Bullock and I'm Alex French.
In our newest show, we take a darkly comedic and occasionally ridiculous deep dive into
a story that has been buried for nearly a century.
We've tracked down exclusive historical records.
We've interviewed the world's foremost experts.
We're also bringing you cinematic historical recreations of moments left out of your history
books.
I'm Smedley Butler and I got a lot to say.
For one, my personal history is raw, inspiring and mind-blowing.
And for another, do we get the mattresses after we do the ads or do we just have to do
the ads?
From iHeart Podcast and School of Humans, this is Let's Start a Coup.
Listen to Let's Start a Coup on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you find your
favorite shows.
What if I told you that much of the forensic science you see on shows like CSI isn't based
on actual science?
The problem with forensic science in the criminal legal system today is that it's an
awful lot of forensic and not an awful lot of science.
And the wrongly convicted pay a horrific price.
Two despotances and a life without parole.
My youngest, I was incarcerated two days after her first birthday.
I'm Molly Herman.
Join me as we put forensic science on trial to discover what happens when a match isn't
a match and when there's no science in CSI.
How many people have to be wrongly convicted before they realize that this stuff's all
bogus, it's all made up.
Listen to CSI on trial on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your
podcasts.
And we're back, we're back.
Well today I thought we might start with our caller.
She's a teacher so we got to get her back to her students.
But she says, dear Chelsea, I got together with my husband 10 years ago after two years
of close friendship.
In that time, my husband battled a heroin addiction.
For the first five years of our relationship, he was in and out of rehab and recovery.
Although it wasn't easy, I do think him being in recovery made me a better person.
I learned to focus on myself, I learned how to set better boundaries in all my relationships,
and through it all, our relationships still remained a very good one.
We've always communicated well, loved each other sincerely, and had a relationship based
on true friendship.
In July 2021, we decided to finally get married.
Our wedding day was the happiest day of my life, and since our wedding day we've been
having a true honeymoon period.
The amount of love we have for each other is honestly overwhelming.
Things were finally looking up.
After years with dealing with the drama of relapse and recovery, he had found stability
and sobriety a good job and he had goals.
We bought a house together last September and things were going better than I'd ever imagined.
Then in December, I found out he was sleeping with this coworker.
This is something I never saw coming and could not have prepared myself for.
We went from mentioning daily how grateful we were for each other to him moving out and
pursuing a relationship with another, much younger by the way, woman.
To say I'm devastated is an understatement.
This feels to me a lot like a relapse.
It happened suddenly after he stopped taking care of himself, going to meetings, and communicating
with his sponsor and friends in recovery.
I married him, fully knowing that there was a possibility he could relapse, but I never
knew how this could happen.
As he moved out just before Christmas, he has moved into an apartment, continued dating
his coworker, and basically ignored my existence.
He's given me no indication that he's interested in working on himself or our relationship,
but I'm having such a hard time letting him go.
Do I wait for him to figure his shit out?
Do I move on?
How do I let go?
Elizabeth.
Oh, God.
That is so sad.
So brutal.
Hi, Elizabeth.
You're here.
Oh, hi, Elizabeth.
I'm so sorry, Elizabeth.
This happened, and I can imagine how devastating this is.
It sounds like you were so important to his journey, and then to have this happen is awful.
By the way, you look so young.
How could this woman be much, much younger?
What is she, 11?
She's 26.
And how old are you?
32.
I want to echo what Katie said.
I'm so sorry.
I'm so sorry.
Heartbreak is the way it feels.
It's the worst thing, and that it is the most unrecoverable thing, but it is not.
And you will recover.
And I said this the other day to my friend because we were talking.
And I know it's like sometimes when we can't get ourselves out of situations by ourselves,
the universe has a way of getting us out of those situations.
And even though it doesn't feel like he's doing you a favor and he has several issues
with drugs, with the cheating, with all of these things, this is a way for you to have
him out of your life and really reassess.
I think what drew you to him in the first place, what allowed you to trust him in the
first place and have so much faith in him and kind of recalibrate what you're willing
to accept in the future moving forward, whether it's him coming back in six months,
which is a possibility.
And you have to decide what you're going to do with that if and when that happens.
And if it doesn't happen, what are you going to do to prepare yourself to be in a real
loving relationship that is reciprocal where you don't have to worry about somebody going
off the rails because it was intense, intense, intense, intense and then disappear.
Like that's not what any responsible human does.
You sit down and you have a conversation saying, I'm having these feelings for another person
or I've acted on these feelings and I'm confused.
You don't just take off and ignore this person that's been by your side.
I agree.
I mean, it sounds so cruel that he, you know, people do fall in love with other people.
It happens, but the fact that he has been so cruel and callous and completely cut you
out of his life.
But I, one thing I wanted to say that Chelsea mentioned is it's so interesting who we're
drawn to, you know, where you drawn to him because you wanted to save him, that you wanted
to fix him, that you wanted to help him.
Is there something in your past, in your relationships with your family or with your parents that
maybe make you gravitate to people like this who are sort of dangerous and living on the
edge and even if he was getting better?
I thought it was interesting too that you describe this as a relapse.
Like maybe one addiction replacing another, the high of almost an illicit romance replacing
the high of drugs and I don't know much about that.
I thought that was an interesting use of words to do Chelsea.
Yeah, absolutely.
It does sound like a transference, right?
Like you go from one thing to the other.
Do you know if he's had a relapse?
I don't think he's used drugs or alcohol.
A lot of the like warning signs of a relapse were coming up before I found out, which is
how I found out I started getting a little bit suspicious.
I thought that he relapsed on drugs and then I found out that it was an affair.
And like I've spoken to his sponsor, his sponsor agrees it's very much like relapse behavior,
but he's in such denial.
He does not want to hear it and he gets super defensive anytime anybody accuses him of needing
mental health help right now.
And when was the last time you spoke with him?
Well I spoke with him on Sunday because he wants to talk about tax.
But he did tell me on Sunday that he's no longer with that girl, but that he still doesn't
want to be married to me anymore.
And you have this house together?
Yeah.
And so what's the plan there?
Have you gotten that far yet?
I know I'm not moving.
I'm not selling the house.
I put a significant portion of my savings into the house, like the down deposit and it
wouldn't make any sense for me to move because rent anywhere.
I have two dogs and rent anywhere with two dogs would be more expensive than what my
mortgage is.
But he's under the impression that we'll just sign papers and he'll get off scot-free and
just live a life that has no repercussions for his actions.
I mean I feel like his behavior alone is going to help you get through this quicker as painful
as it feels.
He's like disassociating himself from your prior relationship.
And I do think you are dodging a major bullet of like more pain and more grief.
I don't think that you should be holding onto the idea that maybe you guys can reconcile
because a, he needs a ton of therapy and you don't have time for that.
Like I would rather see you take this time to really get centered and grounded and read
all the books that you can read about what that means for you.
There's a great book I mentioned all the time on this podcast, Letting Go by David Hawkins,
which is very deep and very meta, but it is about letting the world stop resisting your
reality.
You know, whatever is happening, just deal with what's happening and the situation without
trying to push, move or change it, aligning yourself and it makes recovery and heartbreak
so much easier because there are doors that are going to open because of this closure
that you haven't seen yet and life is going to take a different shape for you and you
have to be inspired by that and move towards that if you can understand what I'm saying
there.
Yeah, that's what I'm having a hard time with is just letting go honestly, especially because
it's a relapse because I married him knowing that he could relapse, but I did not know
that an affair could be a relapse.
I thought it would be drugs or alcohol.
In some ways, are you excusing his behavior and saying, well, this is the personality
of an addict?
Yeah.
I'm like, I married him knowing he was an addict and so what is my responsibility?
But then again, I met my vows when I said them and he's broken them and I don't know
even if he came back where we would land.
And you deserve so much better, right?
I think a lot of women hold on thinking they're going to fix somebody and that's almost part
of the attraction.
And I think if he doesn't let you not to go all over on you, be your best self and let
you pursue your dreams and be a full and whole person and if it's all about him and his addiction
and his wanting to stay clean and you're so focused on that, what's left over for you?
Yeah, I agreed.
Not much.
And just the treatment, you know what I mean?
This isn't how you treat someone you've spent all this time with who's been there for you
all this time.
And not alone is just like you're not that's not acceptable to you.
You deserve so much better and you deserve to be standing on higher ground.
And by continuing to have this conversation with yourself about what you want moving
forward, I understand it's hard to get over someone but time will heal.
You will get over him.
You will get over him before you think you will.
It always happens.
You know, we don't stay in love with the same people for 20 or 40 years and sometimes even
if people do, there's people along the way that come in and you know, shake things up
and I think this is a time for you to dive inward and really do the work on yourself
so that you're never in a position where you are vulnerable to a person or an addict like
this again, you know?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think Katie is right that, you know, he's chasing chaos, whether it's the heroine
or another person or busting up his marriage in this way, whatever it is.
And so are you in therapy right now?
I am.
Okay, good.
I mean, you know, we talked about this a couple of weeks ago, but when you are ready for a
new relationship, because it's probably not going to be right away, but when you are going
after relationships that feel steadier and feel really not these like extreme highs and
lows, the nice thing about that too is like, there's less for you to take care of, you
know, you don't necessarily need somebody who can take care of you in that way, but
you need someone who you can take care of each other.
Yeah.
And I think that one sided of like, I got to help him be in recovery.
I got to help him get out of this.
You know, I got to help him figure out his life.
Now that he's left me, I wonder why so many women you all are attracted to chaos, chaotic
relationships, sort of the push pull, the where do I stand?
I was watching before I went to bed.
Sometimes I watch old episodes of Sex and the City and caring is dating aid right now
in this episode I was watching.
And she said, it's so nice.
It's so easy.
It's so calm.
And she was so unhappy about that.
And it's interesting when you look at your own self, like, why do I, what is it about
my past or about relationships or about my makeup that makes me want to be in this chaos?
Because ultimately it's just so not fun.
But I think when you see that, you can move towards something that's different than that,
especially with the help of a therapist.
I think after five years of sobriety, like we were getting to that point.
And that's one of the things he said, like, I was just waking up, going to the gym, going
to work, coming home, sitting on the couch, watching TV.
And I was like, that's life.
Like that's where I wanted to be.
I want a boring life with somebody.
I want somebody that I can just sit on the couch next to and not necessarily even have
to have a conversation.
So for me, like, we were finally at the point where I was like, great, we own a house.
These are nice little, boring life together.
And it was comfortable.
And this really just like smacked me in the face out of nowhere.
I feel like I'm still reeling from the shock.
It's interesting what some people consider contentment other people consider boredom.
Right.
I would be with you because those are the things I'm interested in as well.
Sitting on the couch, watching TV at the end of the day and not fucking talking to anybody.
That is also my idea of a perfect relationship.
You know, too much talking drives me crazy.
It's like I make a living talking.
So I like quiet, you know, as much as I like talking.
Do you relate to that, Katie?
Yes.
Like sometimes everyone just to stop.
Yeah, I love quiet too.
I feel like you that it's contentment to be able to.
I used to be so sad when I saw people out to dinner and not talking and that still makes
me sad when I see couples.
But there's something when you're comfortable enough to not have to talk all the time.
When you just find comfort in each other's presence and it doesn't feel forced or awkward,
that to me is my sweet spot.
That's where I want to be in a relationship.
And that's what I found and it is possible to find it.
And you know, I think you deserve a drama free relationship.
That's what you want.
And that's what you should go out and find.
And I was saying earlier to Chelsea and Catherine, you know, when I look for a partner, I'm pretty
intentional about it.
I don't think I'm going to run into somebody at a bookstore, you know, perusing the new
novels.
I think that you have to network.
You have to say to people, I'm interested in meeting new people.
And it may not even be for love connections.
It may be just for expanding your social circle, learning something new from somebody who's
in a completely different profession or has an interesting hobby.
And you know, I always say only coffee or a glass of wine because I don't want to be
stuck having dinner with somebody who I just don't feel a connection with at all.
But I also try to give them, you know, I try to respect them and appreciate them for who
they are, even if they're not somebody I want to be, you know, dating.
There's also a book called it's called Break Up because it's broken, which is a good breakup
book.
Write that one down.
And then the letting go book because I think what you're really talking about is letting
go.
And I think that, you know, this is an opportunity.
Don't ever forget every disaster, every traumatic experience we have is an opportunity for growth.
So you're going to take this opportunity and you are going to grow.
You know what I mean?
You have to think about that every single day and use the intention that Katie's referring
to as a daily practice for yourself.
What are my intentions for today to learn more about myself, to be more honest with
myself, to be looking for the good in people and the people that are giving the good back
to you.
And really just, you know, taking the time to get yourself a little bit out of your comfort
zone and the things that you're reading and learning about yourself, even with your therapy,
really get down to it.
And I think that you're going to be in a much better spot sooner than later.
And don't lose hope.
Just remember that you are a person of strength.
We all have such a deep reservoir of strength within us.
Sometimes we have to really pull it out.
And this is one of those times where you have to stand on your two feet and don't waver.
His behavior has been unacceptable.
And there's no way back to him.
Yeah.
And think of all you have to offer.
I think when people get treated this way, they look for deficits in themselves because
it's sort of what's wrong with me.
What did I do wrong?
Why wasn't I good enough?
And it doesn't have anything to do with that.
It's not that you have deficits.
And I think at a time like this, you have to remember all the great things about you.
And as Chelsea said, and I think Chelsea would be an excellent therapist, by the way, but
that, you know, to really think about all that you have to offer, not the things that
you are suddenly feeling that you don't have.
When you break up and you start to obsess about the other person, what are they doing?
What are they thinking?
What's their modem?
What were they saying?
What did they mean when they did this?
That is the thinking that it's like, no, no.
What do I think?
What am I doing?
What do I think about him?
What do I think about myself?
How did he make me feel?
Yeah, it's about you redirect any thoughts you have about him back to you because that's
who you need to be paying attention to.
It doesn't matter what he thinks or what he's doing.
You're going to stand your ground and you're going to develop as a human being because
of this experience.
Yeah, you get to be a little bit selfish now and you should be.
That's nice.
Yeah, so stay busy.
I know that even when I lost my husband, Jay, and even when I had dramatic breakups or after
long relationships, I think you really have to lean on your female friends and your male
friends and really stay busy.
Take a trip.
Go for a hike.
Take a pottery class.
Just work on yourself, but I think those times where you wake up at three in the morning
and you're ruminating and you can't go back to sleep and I think just staying busy for
me was so important during traumatic periods of my life.
It's like I'm trying to strike a balance between staying busy and taking time to feel my feelings
because I think sometimes staying busy makes me avoid my reality a little bit.
I feel like I'm performing all the time for other people.
Well, maybe stay busy by yourself.
Yeah.
Yeah, no, it's good to reflect.
I think that's really important.
I didn't learn that until I was much older about sitting by yourself and allowing the
pain to come through, allowing yourself to grieve.
I mean, not necessarily relying on other people to make you feel better as a distraction,
but kind of working through the pain yourself, a lotting that time each day.
Another good book for you to read is attached because it will probably be very clear to
you what kind of person he is, which sounds avoidant.
And it kind of gives you the dynamics between people who are needy or what people are expecting
out of relationships and the attraction that why you're even in a relationship with someone
like this, you know, not that there's anything wrong with you.
It's just our patterns of behavior and our patterns of giving love.
So yes, please just remember that you're of huge value separating is not the end of your
world.
It's the beginning of a different part of your life.
Yeah.
I'm going to play this on repeat.
Yeah.
So welcome to talk.
Thank you.
I appreciate it.
I'm going to get these books too.
They sound so interesting.
Yeah, they're all just, you know, like it just depends what kind of hits you.
You know, I've read so many like breakup or self help books.
They kind of go hand in hand and some of them are deeper.
Some of them are lighter.
There's like the untethered soul, which is kind of a light frilly read.
And that's okay.
But that's not the book for me.
Like I like deep thinking about like how life gets easier when you accept everything and
you just go, Oh, that didn't work out.
Okay.
What else is going to happen?
That belaboring, you know, uh, what happened?
What did it do?
When you beat a dead horse like that, you're stuck.
So you're just going to have to get yourself unstuck, which you're going to do.
And then you're going to report back to us.
Okay.
Thank you so much.
Okay.
Okay.
We love you.
Thanks, Elizabeth.
Good luck.
Bye.
I love you so much.
Thank you.
You're welcome.
You're going to be okay.
I will.
She's so sweet too, just to brag on her for a second.
She said, you know, cause I was like, Oh man, December, like it's right before the holidays
that this all blew up.
And she goes, Oh yeah.
And he had invited his whole family to come for Christmas.
And I go, Oh my gosh, did you guys cancel?
She goes, no, I just told them he left.
I don't know where he's going to be, but you guys are still welcome to come.
And so they came and stayed with her.
Oh, that's sweet.
I like that.
You know, what a sweetheart.
Oh God.
She's so nice.
I would be like, Nope.
Me too.
There's a room.
You and your family can go fuck off.
That's more my style.
Yeah.
We took up too much time, Katie catching up.
Sorry.
We love to hear you watch on.
So it's good.
No, no, we love it.
We love it.
We probably could have cut that.
Well, you know what, we can clarify for now once and for all because also the other thing
is I keep getting these people saying I was on his flight log to Epsilon Island.
And I'm like, I mean, that's why the center.
Have I ever pretended that I didn't do something that I've done?
Like I am the first person to announce it to the world.
So I would like to clarify that neither Katie or myself has ever been on a flight with
Jeffrey Epstein just a dinner.
Yeah, that was my meaning that I was on his manifesto.
Like she was on Jeffrey.
I'm like, what are they talking about?
First of all, it's manifest.
It's not manifest.
Sorry.
Sorry.
Sorry.
Manifest sorry.
Oh, we'll have to edit that out.
We can't have you correct.
You can't say that.
Wait a second.
Let me start over.
I keep reading and people tweet to me.
You were on Jeffrey Epstein's manifest and I'm like, what?
I imagine you and I going to that island and then what?
What are we up to there?
Right.
Anyway, but that's good.
So yes, my dinner with Jeffrey, our dinner with Jeffrey has been discussed once and for
all.
Okay, great.
Well, let's take a quick break and we'll be right back to wrap up.
I'm Dr. Romany and I am back with season two of my podcast, navigating narcissism.
Narcissists are everywhere and their toxic behavior and words can cause serious harm to
your mental health.
In our first season, we heard from Eileen Charlotte, who was loved by the Tinder Swindler.
The worst part is that he can only be guilty for stealing the money from me, but he cannot
be guilty for the mental part he did.
And that's even way worse than the money he took.
But I am here to help.
As a licensed psychologist and survivor of narcissistic abuse myself, I know how to identify
the narcissist in your life.
Each week, you will hear stories from survivors who have navigated through toxic relationships,
gaslighting, love bombing, and the process of their healing from these relationships.
Listen to navigating narcissism on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your
podcasts.
What would you do if a secret cabal of the most powerful folks in the United States told
you, Hey, let's start a coup.
Back in the 1930s, a Marine named Smedley Butler was all that stood between the US and
fascism.
I'm Ben Bullock and I'm Alex French.
In our newest show, we take a darkly comedic and occasionally ridiculous deep dive into
a story that has been buried for nearly a century.
We've tracked down exclusive historical records.
We've interviewed the world's foremost experts.
We're also bringing you cinematic historical recreations of moments left out of your history
books.
I'm Smedley Butler and I got a lot to say.
For one, my personal history is raw, inspiring and mind-blowing.
And for another, do we get the mattresses after we do the ads or do we just have to do the
ads?
From iHeart Podcast and School of Humans, this is Let's Start a Coup.
Listen to Let's Start a Coup on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you find your
favorite shows.
What if I told you that much of the forensic science you see on shows like CSI isn't based
on actual science?
The problem with forensic science in the criminal legal system today is that it's an
awful lot of forensic and not an awful lot of science.
And the wrongly convicted pay a horrific price.
Two despotances and a life without parole.
My youngest, I was incarcerated two days after her first birthday.
I'm Molly Herman.
Join me as we put forensic science on trial to discover what happens when a match isn't
a match and when there's no science in CSI.
How many people have to be wrongly convicted before they realize that this stuff's all
bogus, it's all made up.
Listen to CSI on trial on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your
podcasts.
And we're back with Katie Carrick and Catherine and we're wrapping up today's episode.
What Katie, is there any advice you'd like from Chelsea?
Yeah, Katie.
Yes.
Oh gosh.
I'm springing it on you.
Oh gosh, yes.
I know I was supposed to think about my Catherine.
I think I forgot to think about it.
Okay, that's no problem.
What about if we just do one more question and then close it up?
Yeah, I think that's good.
Sure.
I'm a bit of a heavy one, but it is right up your alleys.
So I definitely wanted to get to this one.
This is from Marty.
Marty says, Dear Chelsea, I'm the eldest of six sisters and one brother.
I'm also a wife and mother to three girls.
We're close knit, though a little crazy.
My second to youngest sister, who's seven years younger than I, has breast cancer, diagnosed
back in 2018.
In 2020, the cancer metastasized to her brain, which was a heartbreak.
She was given three months to live and there are not a lot of treatment options.
My sister has miraculously lived a quality life for the last two years due to her hard
work, support group and medical advances.
However, we're now at a point where her chemotherapy is no longer working.
She's on her way to take part in a phase one medical trial, hoping to help others in
the future and perhaps also extend her life.
My sisters and I have been her cheerleaders throughout this process and have been her
confidant and support.
She's an amazing person and sister.
I sure hope that her life is extended through the trial, but I'm trying to prepare for the
alternative.
I want to be there for her, say all the right things and provide comfort, strength and peace,
but I don't know how to do this.
I don't know what to say.
I'm afraid I will say the wrong thing.
I want to save her.
I don't want this to happen.
I'm heartbroken and I need to help myself so I can help her.
Can you help give me answers?
Thank you and I hope this note finds its way to you.
Marty.
You have really smart, sensitive, eloquent listeners.
Yeah.
So that was a beautiful letter and that is a very, very, I think that is one of the most
profound and difficult situations.
We as a culture just don't know how to help people die.
I think I wrote a lot about this in my book because I was in a state of denial and was
the cheerleader for Jay despite the fact that I knew that his illness was the likeliness
of being cured was almost zero.
So they have something called death doulas now, which is really interesting that they
help families and they help people deal with their own mortality.
And I think clearly this is an incredibly loving family and I wish that when Jay was
sick, we had had somebody to sit and talk to us and a lot give us space to express our
fears and our, you know, Jay's hope for the future, for our daughters to be able to have
those conversations, which are the hardest conversations you can have.
So I have so much empathy and sympathy for that listener.
And I think just being there for the person and just surrounding them by love or with
love, there was this incredible show on Netflix called From Scratch and Can Be Lock wrote it,
it was based on a true story.
And I watched it and I just cried because her husband died of cancer and the way he was
surrounded by love and the way she was just there for him.
And she was saying, Tiamo, Tiamo, because he was Italian.
It was so moving.
I'm sort of crying, thinking about it.
And I think families need help with this.
You know, nobody reads a book about this.
It's such a new and painful experience, but I think it can be turned into something that's
truly transcendent.
Yes.
I think that people need help and she should get together with her loving sisters and maybe
talk about it and talk to someone who specializes in this to say, Kate Boller has a great podcast.
She's been living with colon cancer for a long time.
She talks a lot about this, this kind of stuff.
And I did a whole video with a death doula and with Kate and with another woman who lost
her husband right after she had gave birth to twins.
And it's a very, very hard thing.
What would you say, Chelsea, to this person?
I think it's really important just to give as much love as possible, you know, to anybody
who is leaving this earth.
The situation is not in your control, but what you can control is how you deal with
the situation and what you provide.
And I think it can be a completely transformative relationship for you to be able to show up
for your sister in this way, in this loving way where it's not about necessarily you
losing her right now.
It's about you being there for her right now and working through your stuff on your own
time with your family.
I think a death doula is a great idea.
And also to just start to think about death in a different way, in a way that it doesn't
feel like, yes, your sister may be leaving this earth, but her aura, her spirit is never
going to be gone.
I can't tell you how often I feel my mother around me.
Katie, do you have that experience with Jay or with your sister that you feel them around
you or that you have a sign when you know that they're giving you or anything like that?
A little bit.
You know, I'm not very, I just don't think I'm very receptive to that, Chelsea personally.
I wish I were there are moments, but I sometimes think, oh, I'm just imagining that.
Yeah.
And I think, I think that's true.
I think the more open you are spiritually and open-hearted you are, the more that you will
be able to receive from people once they are not on this earth.
You know, the energy just transforms.
It never dies.
It's not like she's going to go on and live up in heaven or whatever, but her spirit will
still survive because that's the energy that we all have.
You know, our spirit goes on and whatever, wherever it goes, you know, we'll never know.
But I want you to look at it, try to start looking about it.
You know, there's a book called Many Lives, Many Masters, which kind of blows your mind
about reincarnation, which I don't really believe in.
But when I read that book, it's impossible not to.
These are firsthand accounts of people who have been built under hypnosis and then speak
Italian for an hour.
And they didn't even know they could speak Italian, you know, like crazy memories that
people have from their lives.
So I just, I think having that attitude and being open to what the possibilities of life
after death are and what that means so that it doesn't feel, yes, you're not going to
see her again in her physical form, but that doesn't mean what she's imprinted on you thus
far ever has to disappear.
And you have an opportunity now to give her so much love and so much support and really
be there for her in a way that is going to elevate you as well.
And it's going to make you proud of the way that this takes shape, whether she passes
on or whether she is able to survive, you should be prepared for the prior and that
you can be here in this moment as somebody who is going to be holding her hand as she
leaves this world, that is going to be there with that kind of love that all that's all
you could ever want in this world is to be born into love and let them leave in love.
And so I also think Chelsea, you know, just they're obviously a very close family and
I think to be able to have an honest conversation with your sister, like what do you need?
I love that you said don't think about losing her, but just think about being there for
her.
What do you need?
What can I do?
What are you afraid of?
I don't know if her sister has children.
I mean, that's really hard too.
You know, talking about even some of the practical concerns that she might have and just telling
her that she is there for her to help her in any way, big and small and it just, we're
afraid, you know, we're afraid to say, I wish I had said to Jay, I'm so afraid that you're
going to die.
And can you leave something for Ellie and Carrie who are two and six and are never going to
know their father truly.
And I just think that as a culture, we need to learn the language of loss and of illness
and of death and that we're so afraid of our own mortality.
It's almost paralyzing.
Yes, and honoring this time in her life, you know, all the things that Katie just said
and then also having everybody around, having a party, having a dinner party, you know, to
a celebration of her life.
And that's true, you know, they do living memorial services now.
I read, you know, and maybe you should talk to someone by my friend Lori Gottlieb.
She had a, she's a therapist.
She had a patient with cancer, really young, you know, I think she was in her early 30s
and they did a whole celebration of her life while she was living.
And you know, maybe that's something, as you mentioned, I didn't mean to interrupt Chelsea,
but that is something you could do for her if that's something that would be helpful.
Yeah, closure with everyone is so helpful.
The whole family member just showing up and just being there for her in every moment and
fulfilling her requests, whatever they may be, and it's going to help you through the
rest of your life and your loss too and your grief and your families, you know.
So this is the time when families really have an opportunity to show up for each other.
So I know it's a really difficult situation, but I think you can rise to the occasion and
really just be a leader, like help lead this so that she's as comfortable as possible and
gets anything she wants off of her chest or, you know, time spent with other family members
and her wishes for after she's gone to honor all of those things, I think will be really
helpful in what you're dealing with.
You know, when my mom died, Chelsea, I was just bereft, you know, I was very close to
both my parents and I remember my minister calling and I go to church some.
I'm not super religious, but I really like my minister and he called to offer his condolences
and I told him I was just felt like an untethered helium balloon, you know.
I just was sort of a moored and he said, remember those who love deeply, grieve deeply and it
kind of turned a switch in me and it made me go from immense sadness to immense gratitude.
Obviously, this letter was written by someone with a very loving relationship with her sisters
and to kind of take a moment and appreciate that is also very comforting.
Indeed.
We ended on a really difficult note, but I think so many of us go through something like this
that it's going to be really helpful to a lot of people.
So thank you for sharing.
Thank you, Katie, for sharing.
It's always nice to see you.
I love you.
I hope I see you in person sooner than later.
I hope so too, because there's so much I want to talk to you about and ask you about
and I have to say Chelsea, I really appreciate listening to you give advice because you're
very wise and you're very smart and I think you're extremely helpful to a lot of people,
not to mention highly entertaining.
We didn't even talk about Tucker Carlson.
My God.
Oh my God.
Tucker Carlson.
I think that's apt because he doesn't deserve any more than this.
There's our time.
No.
So ridiculous.
As my daughter said, that's all they have.
That's all they have are these culture wars and that's all they can talk about and it's
just so poisonous and so ridiculous.
Poisonous.
I love it.
So stupid.
Poisonous also, my niece was up here saying she goes, they were on Tucker Carlson talking
about how women, if you've ever seen a woman back up a car, then you know that they're
not equal to men.
He said it back up a car.
Like, it's almost a parody of misogyny.
It's not even in real step with real misogyny.
You know what I mean?
It's like, it's misogyny for morons.
For 1950s.
Yeah, misogyny.
So yeah.
So let's not give him any more airtime.
But thank you so much for coming on.
Oh, I really enjoyed it.
I really enjoyed it.
Catherine, thank you.
It's been fun being with you as well.
And why?
And Chelsea, please let me know when we're in the same city because I would love to spend
some quality time with you.
I would too.
I would too.
I'm going to reach out to you and let you know when I'm in New York.
You're in New York mostly, right?
Yeah, mostly New York.
Yeah.
Cool.
All right, lots of love to everyone.
Okay.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Thank you.
Okay, I've added some new dates for my new little big bitch tour.
I'm going to tell you the ones that are not sold out because we're adding second shows
in Kalamazoo, Michigan.
Sunday, April 16th, we added a second show.
We're adding a second show in Spokane, Washington, which is going to be Thursday.
So I'll be performing in Spokane Thursday and Friday.
And then we added Red Rocks Amphitheater in Colorado, which is in Morrison, Colorado.
And that is May 10th.
So and then I have one new edition.
Friday, May 12th, we added Monticello, New York.
So that's a resort world Catskills.
I don't think I've been to the Catskills.
Well, ever.
And we're continuing to add shows.
We have a lot of cities on the list of Vegas, Tulsa, Oklahoma, Alabama, a lot of places in
Tennessee.
So if you're listening, go to ChelseaHammer.com for tickets.
And you can see my stand up special revolution on Netflix, which is now streaming.
So if you'd like advice from Chelsea, just send us an email at deerchelseypodcast at
gmail.com.
Deer Chelsea is a production of iHeartRadio produced by Katherine Law and edited and engineered
by Brad Dicert.
I'm Dr. Romany and I am back with season two of my podcast, Navigating Narcissism.
This season we dive deeper into highlighting red flags and spotting a narcissist before
they spot you.
Each week you'll hear stories from survivors who have navigated through toxic relationships,
gaslighting, love bombing and their process of healing.
Listen to navigating narcissism on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your
podcasts.
What would you do if a secret cabal of the most powerful folks in the United States told
you, hey, let's start a coup.
Back in the 1930s, a Marine named Smedley Butler was all that stood between the US and
fascism.
I'm Ben Bullen.
I'm Alex French.
And I'm Smedley Butler.
Join us for this sordid tale of ambition, treason and what happens when evil tycoons have
too much time on their hands.
Listen to Let's Start a Coup on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you find your
favorite shows.
What if I told you that much of the forensic science you see on shows like CSI isn't based
on actual science and the wrongly convicted pay a horrific price?
Two deaths sentences in a life of that parole.
My youngest, I was incarcerated two days after her first birthday.
Listen to CSI on trial on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your
your podcast.
♪♪♪