Coaching With A People-First Philosophy | MLB Coach of the Year, Donnie Ecker

When I thin slice that, mastery is the combination of self-awareness and an application. Can we be self-aware and then can we go do it? Okay, welcome back. Or welcome to the Finding Mastery Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Michael Jervais. By trading and training a high-performance psychologist, and I'm really excited to welcome Donnie Eckert as our guest for this week's conversation. Donnie is a highly respected and accomplished Major League Baseball coach, who was entering his second season as bench coach and offensive coordinator for the Texas Rangers. Before his tenure with the Rangers, Donnie was recognized as Baseball America's 2021 MLB Coach of the Year when he helped the San Francisco Giants to a franchise record 107 wins and 241 home runs. Remarkable. But this is not a conversation about baseball. Donnie's an expert in biomechanics and analytics and all that makes him a great coach, but it's his people first philosophy and his ability to help his players work from the inside out that makes his leadership style so powerful and so effective. And I love how he's navigated the tension between taking care of himself and taking care of those around him. First of all, it's forged in a great life story. Donnie has skills that we can all learn from and to try to implement in our own lives in business and sport, in our own communities, in our own families. So whether you're a baseball fan, a coach, a business leader, or someone looking to level up your own performance, I think you're really going to love this conversation. So with that, I want to introduce coach Donnie Eckert. Donnie, how are you? I'm great. It's great to be here. I'm stoked that we are having this time because what was it a year ago? Two, 18 months ago, I think we connected online. You have become, you've received an incredible award. Can we start with that award just for a moment? Sure. Yeah. I mean, let's just celebrate that award. Yeah. MLB Coach of the Year. Right. Okay. That's pretty cool. So how long have you been coaching? Man, I say my whole life. And it starts at moments that you look back and you go, okay, why? And 13 years old flag football, how come I wanted to call plays? And so I didn't know that at the time, but I was also playing quarterback, but the dopamine hit wasn't dropping back and making a throw. The dopamine hit was, hey, let's get together. If we do this and they do this, we'll do this. So I was always drawn to them. And that transformed in my life to go into Australia and try to fight to keep a career going. But a part of that deal was you're going to coach 12 year olds. So then I was doing that and just my whole life in some form or the other, I was really drawn towards coaching. Okay. So let's do a little bit of the chapters of your life, if you will. Sure. So we'll do a quick little fly over and then if you allow me to pick some of those apart, that would be fun. Let's do it. Okay, good. And the things I do want to make sure we connect on is like how you teach and work through failure because baseball is a game of failure as it's, you know, respectfully known. And then I also want to understand how you work with people. This conversation for me is about how coaching is really how you work with people and how that your insights translate into other rooms, like board rooms, living rooms, you know, decision making rooms, whatever that might be. And so let's start with chapters of your life. So I don't know how many chapters have you had so far? I don't know. I don't know. You know, it's the way my brain works. It's not one, two, three. It's just this constant line, you know, it's like one long book. But I think if you start at the beginning, it is the first eight years of my life were a double white trailer in this beautiful part of California called Bakersfield. So you're probably familiar. There's no ocean there. It was a cross from a Frito-Lay plant. So my biological parents, they were six months pregnant with me when they got married. And some of this is getting older and wanting to figure out the answers. But it really starts with a single grandmother raising me in a dirt lot from, you know, birth till eight years old. So and I say that because when you're that young and you don't have structure, you lean towards curiosity, exploring, and then you get a little taste of problem solving on your own. You know, I didn't have a be home at this time. I did not have a, you know, do this or don't do this. I had a basically a free canvas to just go explore. So that was the first eight years. What was your title? I would title it, Curiosity. Do you talk about this much, this part of your life? I'm, I'm becoming more, it's becoming more clear that it's important to share it, but I haven't. And really the, the, I spent a lot of one on one time with myself trying to figure out like deconstruct why is that? And it's just because I did not want any extra sympathy. And I never felt like it was unique. You know, it's like, man, these aren't first world problems. And even all the hard things I've been through, you really look at what's going on in the world. And it's like, man, these are not first world problems. And it's, it's unique to me, but it's not unique to the world. So let's go. Do you mean these are first world problems or they're not? What, what did you mean by that? Yeah. Like the real problems are, you know, not having food and shelter. Oh, I see. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How do you think that helped that experience help shape you? And let me, let me make sure I'm calibrating correctly. Sure. Double wide trailer. So I get in my mind in Bakersfield, like a dirt lot, you know, like, and I'm not sure it's not a dirt lot or not, or not, but like this image that resources were thin, that you had loose parenting styles, your parents were not around, your grandmother was doing, you know, the best she could with thin resources. And that zero to eight, you're just kind of getting into school, right? And so like you didn't, you know, it was like probably pretty wild or loose. I don't know if it was scary or not. Yeah. Those are all words I would connect with. It was very, it was very free. And you, you don't know what you don't know, which when we get into that, that next chapter of moving to the Bay Area and you're thrown into a very affluent area, you start to really go, oh man, there's another world that exists. So what I knew was riding the bike and running around and starting a tractor and climbing fences. And I just knew the, the social dynamics were, if you saw a kid in the dirt lot, you just rode up to him and, you know, you became friends and you did stuff together. So it, it looses a very good word. But it was also figuring out like a lot of ways to be self-sufficient and, and go problem solve, which I think is such a, it's such a key ingredient to where I am now and, and what we all strive for, which is, you know, less complaining and more like go figure out solutions. So curiosity led to this curiosity exploration had a either led to or had a problem solving solution focused. Yeah. Experience embedded in it. That's really cool. I don't think you would know this, but I grew up on a farm, dirt roads, no streetlights, nearest neighbor was really far away and we didn't have a lot. And so laissez-faire parenting, where if I didn't come home by dark, you know, at least my experience was that we didn't have a lot. It's not like we, I went without. So, but yeah, but I, like to get a new pair of shoes, like it was, I had to wait. To get shoes. And as I'm talking about it even right now, I'm not sure if that was the way that they just parented with material things or we actually had to wait. Sure. But it wasn't a thing. I didn't care that much about it. Yeah. So I'm, I'm marking that there's a similarity there that maybe we both had. Yeah. And it's not totally clear for me exactly how that experience has led me to some of the insights I have, but I do know that I had to figure shit out early. No doubt. I know I, I have faint memories, but I slept my bed where I would sleep was a, the big, you know, the big, like really big black plastic bags, like the garbage bags. So where are we going? We're going to sleep and try. So no, no, not in them, but we would, she would stuff laundry in there and I would lay on that. And then every once in a while, she'd go to a laundromat to do laundry and, you know, my area I'd slept in would be different. But here's the beautiful thing is, if we want to pause there, luckily they had a garbage bag around it, you know, but I didn't know, I didn't know any differently. Yeah, of course. And I still look back and the, gosh, I can, this feeling of emotion right now, but I look back knowing that, you know, the thing that has stood the test of time for me is this really high regard for humans. Even more so is this single grandmother and that, you know, you want to talk about shaping that relationship and just how you think of women too. That is really carried over where I see kids that have moms now and I make a point to do this. And last week I was at an autograph session kind of thing in a grocery store and it's something I'm wanting to continue to get better at. But all these kids, you know, they're coming up and they're with their parents. And I just try to pause every once in a while if I see behaviors and I just try to tell like, hey, you're so lucky, you're so lucky. And they're like, wow, I'm like, you have a mom. Like you're winning, you're winning, you know, and just to frame that. And I try to win those moments. It is so important to me. I used to try to avoid public appearances because I did not want this feeling of, you know, you're better than somebody or all the attentions on you. And I'm extremely comfortable speaking in front of big crowds. I like all that. And it shifted for me when I realized that, you know, when you have an opportunity to elicit an experience for somebody else that they can't get other places, you do it. So it's taken the photo. It's signed in the autograph. It's speaking to kids. If you can shape and create a feeling for somebody else that they can't get somewhere else, you do it. Finding Master is brought to you by Primal Kitchen. 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Yeah. So what is that about? That's creating an experience. There's a kindness in that that you're working from. It's a kindness is a lean for me. Is it what? It's a lean. What does it mean? It means there's probably a frame we're missing here, but when I got shifted from the single grandmother to my dad's side of the family in the Bay Area. So before you go there, what's your, like where were your parents early? I know you kind of hit it, but they were separated. They were separated and they left you with grandma. Yeah, and it says mom's grandma. Yes. Okay. So my biological mom. Yeah. So my biological mom was in and out of rehab. Beautiful lady. She was kind of in the modeling space. So that's why she's so handsome. I got a family of mother. Your cameras are good. Yeah. No, but the, you know, she was in, she was not a part of my life and I didn't know why. Okay. How did you answer that as a young kid? I didn't know. Yeah. It's the unknown, which is interesting, right? Because as you get older and you start to formulate, then the work begins. Like what we call trauma or what we call, you know, life experience that shape you. Like when I say the work, that's not the, that's the dark side. What do you, what's the dark side? The work? The dark side, I mean, there's a lot of dark sides in the career. There's dark side. Anytime you're, you're pursuing maybe a different direction in life that's not the 90% or 95%. There's a price that comes with that. Oh, that's interesting. I do want to talk about that with you because I was like nodding my head like, oh, the work. Yeah. Like I love the work. Yeah. Right. Like the, the opining and the philosophizing and all that. That's cool because there's framing in it, right? And I mean, that is, that's part of it, but I love the work. And when I sit with folks in a high speed corporate environment or sport environment and they, they start with like, okay, let's be great. Wow. Like I like it better. I'm like, great. Okay. Good. Yeah. That's what I all say. Yeah. And they look at me like, no, but I'm different. And they'll say like, do you want to do the work? And they're like, yeah, you know, like what do you mean? Or I go the work where you go to places that you haven't been and you hold yourself in those places, you feel all of that until you make some sense of things. Yeah. And then you figure out how you're going to become your very best every single day you're working in that type of way. And that work is remarkable, right? And I hear you saying that that, so I was nodding my head to that. And then you took it to another place like the dark side, which are we saying the same thing? I think two anchors here, intrapersonally, the, the, um, when I got, and I'll unpack this, it'll make a little bit more sense, but my grandmother got sick. And so my dad, yeah. Okay. And it was a little bit of like the courts getting involved. And eventually what happened was my grandparents on my dad's side stepped up, right? They came down in a motorhome from the Los Altos Mountain View area by Stanford. Drove down. I can still remember this because it was, my dad was there. And at that time I was seeing my dad once a year. He would show up, take me to lunch and then I wouldn't see him again. That was from about four to eight. So you know, in good job. Anytime you're, um, somebody inserts themselves, no different than, than coaching or, or being a part of anything, right? Like, if you just show up here and there, it's, it's not sticky. So even that, you know, it was interesting is he didn't try to, he didn't parent me in those moments. We just had lunch and he left, which is interesting. And that's probably not the important part here, but the context is, is essential. So you go up to now I'm up into the Bay area and I want to get to the dark side of this. My grandparents on my dad's side did a tremendous job. They were, um, this was not like a love through affection or anything like that, but they were self made millionaires from Nebraska. They both dropped out of high school at 15 and a half, 16. They came to California. They took IQ test. They were both scaled out as geniuses, so really elite problem solvers. Grandfather went and worked for Boeing before, you know, Google and YouTube, you know, changing engines. Grandmother hit, hit that stream in the 70s, 80s with Intel, the dot com error. So it was unique about them as they were wealthy and they didn't spend a dime. And it was very much a, if you want something, go figure it out. So I go from loose, no boundaries, no shoes, no bed, to almost the militaristic model. Where I didn't play sports. The first time I played sports was I got into, I moved to the mountain view area. I got into school. First day of school, the day before they drove me down the street and I said, this is your school tomorrow. You will walk to school, got me a backpack. They don't like this kid is feral. We know. Yeah, a lot of work to do. There's a lot of work to do. Yeah. Yeah. And it's just interesting. I kind of go from a frame of the one through eight, I go from a frame to eight to 13 14. And then my life really, we'll get to it. It really transforms in a way. So I'm kind of being passed along and I'm like, oh, maybe this is normal. What is this pass along? I'm not going to forget that we will come back there. What was the second, what would you call the second phase, the chapter with your second grandparents? Yeah, it's from eight to 14. And it was the ultimate form of discipline. Okay. So curiosity, discipline, structure, structure. Okay. So I'm going to go to the next chapter. To me, the next chapter is family and love. Family and love. And that's from 14 to. Till now. Till now. Yeah. Wait, you've had more chapters than that. Well, when we talk about my family life. Yeah. Okay. So let's go chronologically for a little bit. Sure. 14 to, where was another kind of... I'd say through high school, you know, high school. Yeah, because you get drafted professionally in baseball and that... Oh, so you got good. You got good early. I look good in shorts. You look good in shorts? You know, seven on seven camps. Yeah. Some of those dudes can rip it. Yeah. Then the pocket gets messy and we really find out. Yeah, really. I was really good in practice. Yeah. So for folks that don't know Elite 11, it's the top 20-some quarterbacks that come in the country and they're competing. And they've been scoured for the full year to come into a camp to see who's the best 11 quarterbacks going into college. And your point, like they look good in shorts. They can whip the ball. It's amazing. They're speed and accuracy. And all of a sudden when there's large humans pushing into the area that you're trying to keep your feet grounded and people can toss around in there, it's a whole different mechanism. And you're saying that you could do it when it wasn't dangerous, but then when it got a bit dangerous in your mind. Yeah. Because baseball... Do you call baseball dangerous work? Yeah, I think it's fair. It's once again just filled with failure, right? You're talking... So you say dangerous from a psychological perspective or physical. No noise outside external noise, it engulfed me. It did. Oh man. I never... I didn't look... We're going to have to be disciplined to stay on topics here, huh? But I sometimes didn't see the picture. I saw other people looking at the way I moved and the way I swung and I was always worried about the aesthetic and is it... Does it look good and is it right? So I mean, I was the classic freeze and focused on what other people thought of me. Oh, you heard of this thing called faux po. Fear of people's opinions? I mean, that is... That's to this day. It's not the breaking ball, it's not the hunter-mower fastball, it is. That's the single detriment. If we go back to modern times, the things we worried about, right? Yeah. Sabretooth Tiger, all that stuff. It is. What do people think of me? And where do you think that came from for you? Because my estimate is that if you're listening right now to this conversation, you can recognize faux po in your own life. You can recognize paying attention to what somebody might be thinking of you as a way that just absolutely got in the way of you doing your thing well. Sure. Loving well, laughing well, hitting well, you know, a baseball, whatever it is. So where do you think for you that came from? It's that second chapter of... Sorry, it's going from the grandparents in third grade, fourth grade, fifth grade. There's so much good that I learned in there. My entrepreneurial life started there as simple as, hey, I want to play baseball. Okay. What do you have to do? Well, I need 90 bucks and I need a signature. Okay. How are you going to make 90 bucks? I mean, pause at the end. What are you going to do? And my grandfather, there's a grocery store chain called Albertsons at that time. He took me over. He put money in. He popped up the newspapers. He said, go, go sell. So like, what do you mean? Well, knock on the door, offer them a newspaper, ask for a dollar. So I did that. And the fourth door, and I tell people the fourth door changed my life. The fourth door handed me a five dollar bill. So that's where I learned value creation. And we fast forward to coaching and being responsible for human beings right now. My model is built off of making sure we create value for them. But I learned that at, that was nine years old. It's like, oh man, if I do something for somebody else that kind of takes something off their plate, I've created a value for them that there's a return that's even richer than the one dollar. And this happened young. This was nine years old. So this is the first principle for you as well. Absolutely. Because it's time tested. Which is what do you mean it's time tested? We can go back a thousand years. And if you, if you're a driver and you're anchor is to pursue the best interest of the people that you're responsible for moving because the leadership word is which we can get into like languages home, ordinary. And the more words become produced by the masses, I think the more we lose the origin of them. So leadership is people just know the words to say now because it helps them get the job and then keeping the job is very difficult. But they know the macro buzzword. So I'm not as interested in in leadership as I'm interested in, I want to move people on a move into individuals towards their best and I want to move groups towards their best. I know that if I do that, it's not me standing in front of a room saying this is what we're going to do. This is who we are. So how we're going to do it. Macro buzz statements. I do feel confident over time a thousand years till now if we say, hey, what do you want? What does it look like for you? What does it feel like? Where's a great year look like for you? Now I have to be very responsible behind the scenes to know what that plan looks like. And is there an aim here? Is there a motive for me? Absolutely. I know if they own it, then I can say authentically, okay, let's build a plan for that. And that's how I approach these guys. Donnie, that sounds like how I work too. That sounds almost exactly. I don't use the word move people. That sounds like it's uniquely yours. And so I'm like, oh, this is so rich because what you just did is you gave a very clear two first principles. They're both about other people creating an experience. If they can't have it on their own, you do it. And that's you using your celebrity. That's you using the unique uniform that you get to put on where people are like, oh, my God. And they start shaking around you because how handsome you want. No, because of what you remember. This might help me get a date or something. Yeah. Right. So, but that's a first principle. And the second first principle is that you help, you're committed to helping people move, which is about growth, which about getting better. Yeah. And you're helping them understand what they want, which is like when you're asking that question and then your responsibility is to back it up with a plan. And what I do is I calibrate the plan with them. You probably do the same thing. Absolutely. And then so let's stay here for a minute. So if we use the word, so the process is asking somebody to use their imagination in a way that conjures up with great clarity. Like you can get the fabric of the clarity from what the vision that they hold for themselves is. Okay. So that's the word I use vision, but it almost, it does lose power when I even say it. So I don't even like to use the word vision, but I don't have a better word. And do you, have you found that when you ask somebody that question that sometimes it is far bigger than you might have thought or sometimes it's like way smaller than you might have thought? Absolutely. Every day, right? That's the beautiful part. So how do you calibrate with them? And hold on, before you answer that, do you come into it with an idea? You do. That's what I do as well. So I come into the conversation like, what do I think could be possible? And that that's the, as a partner in helping people be their very best. That's my alone work. You know, like if you and I are worried and I'm like, what do I think is possible for him? And that's hard because the boundaries are like, where are the boundaries? Okay. So this is a two part conversation here is what do you do when they go? I think my, my vision is, and you're like, Oh geez, that's like 10 steps bigger than I thought. What are you doing in that moment? Well, I make sure that I come in extremely non judgmental. Very important to me. Eliminate bias. We know like there's, there's that invisible world that we're all in, right? If people don't click on this podcast at some point, you can't pay the bills, right? And I know that if, if we don't score runs and win games, eventually you're just not invited back contract over. Okay. So that's there. It's in the corner. Like, I was going back through notes of two gosh, 2015, 16. And this was about two weeks ago. And I had something highlighted from you. And you, I don't know if you're going to remember this, you called it the invisible handshake. Oh, the, yeah, of course, yeah. Which is results. Yes, the score board. Yeah. And it's beautiful. And I was like, man, that's really cool timing. And I have these things highlighted all over that stuff stands out. And I'm like, Oh man, that that has to resonate with me. Yeah. So I really know when something doesn't resonate with me. Yeah. How do you know? How do you like, what do you do for calibration? It pops in me right away. It's not right, which doesn't feel true, especially when I'm in a group setting and everyone is moved by it. And I won't name names here, but we had a sports psychologist come in when I was in college baseball. And I knew really at an early age that this was not for me. And it was just, it's high, you know, breathing fire, motivation. And this big theme was fake it till you make it. And everybody was pumped up, fired up. And I was lost. They're still saying that. You're not letting them in your club, are you? That fake it till you make it shit. If it works for other people, I will, if I'm responsible for you, I will work to understand because it's more important for me to partner and help them. But I knew at 18 when I heard that everybody was pumped up. And I was like, man, that doesn't do anything to me. And then what happens, you know, 30 minutes later, everyone, that dopamine hit is gone. Yeah. Right. And that's the fear with all this over mass populated motivational stuff. Well, motivation last moments. Yeah. So not to get too abstract, but I knew first principles last with they hold, especially if they've been time tested. So that's why we want to work from first principles and work on mastering decision making around those. And so you knew and you listened to your, you listened to your body. Yeah. Whether it was my gut or it didn't move me at all. I didn't get goosebumps. I didn't, I wasn't drawn to it, which during this whole journey, I'm slowly cultivating the authentic side of how I want to lead, right? Because I knew. This is you as a young player. This is me. You were thinking, how am I going to lead? This is me at Long Beach State. Long, playing ball. Yeah. What's your good program now? Great program. Really good players at the time. Troy Tulliwitski, Evan Longoria, and, um, yeah, I knew, I knew, I knew, I'm like, man, that does nothing for me. Fake it till you make it. Like, what are we the best in the world at? Well, us human beings are, we're the best in the world at telling ourselves stories. It's a, it's a never ending 24 hour conversation. We tell ourselves. So we know, I want to look in the mirror and, and like I do now and go, dude, you had a to do list. You did four things. You didn't do the last two. Why? And it's simple. You, you, you've heard it like the negotiation phase, right? I'm going to do three sets of 10. One, two, three, and you're pumping, you're like five, six, seven, you're like, all right, we're talking about lifting weights. Yeah. Like just for an example, eight, I'm good. I'm good. We never negotiate up, right? We don't. Our brains are not designed for that. Like nothing in our biological state of our brains is like, Hey, go be amazing. Go do 12. We, so I've transformed my whole structure about four years ago where I'm not, I'm not doing the negotiation. I'm, it's a do or a don't. And I'm not perfect in that. But when I'm not, I love telling myself, Hey man, you didn't do that. Finding mastery is brought to you by masterworks. If you haven't read road to ruin by Jim Rockards, it is worth checking out. Jim reveals an unexpected way wealthy families safeguard their money, the art collections. Take the Rockefeller's, for example, their collection sold for over $800 million in 2019. So what if you could invest in the same art they did? That's where masterworks comes in. 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Right now cozy earth is offering our listeners 35% off any of their products when you head to cozy earth.com and use the code finding mastery at checkout. You spell it just like it sounds cozy, C O Z Y earth E R T H cozy earth.com. And use the code finding mastery for 35% off. The negotiation phase is awesome. It resonates. Conversation with yourself, right? Well, yeah, it's a way out of the heart. I'll do it tomorrow. I'll do it tomorrow. Yeah. Or like to your point in the intensity when it's like eight and you've got all this lactic acid coursing and it's like, oh, you know, I don't want to strain or pull something, you know, whatever. Okay. So, and you put the weights down. So, you know, the negotiation phase, how are you being fluid because it sounds like what you're saying, I did it or I didn't, which is rigid, black and white. Yes or no, which is not how the world works. Sure. It's shades of color as opposed to only two black and white or something. So how do you, how does that rigid type of yes, no work for you in other parts of your life? Is there a downside to it or like, help me understand this? Yeah. Back to kind of a dark side where if you build your life off this idea that I'm going to focus on timeless principles. So am I like this year, one of my, my commitments is I'm only going to read books that have been around over a hundred years. And you know, is there some not seem to leave in there with the Lindy effect? Absolutely. Like there's, there's a reason it's lasted this long. And so I want to focus on that. So whether it's Socrates or Aristotle or any of those things, like if it's been around this long, it's probably going to be around for another 500 years. So I do like that is a major principle to my life. And then I'll just transfer that to all the, the way I want to live and the way I want to impact. I know that there is no magic pill, there is no shortcut, but I do believe that the, if there was a shortcut and the one I'm going to go into is that it's discipline. So that does come with a very binary approach. Now that dark side, when you, when you, when you kind of adopt that at a younger age, and I had a lot of experiences through Silicon Valley and interning at Stanford and turning at Google at 17 years old, I was exposed to a lot of things in Silicon Valley that I was exposed to you. I was exposed to Stephen Kotler. I knew when things resonated with me and it's like, ah, that feels alive. That's me. Like that's what, that's really, you know, I was trying to put words to that. When you go down that path, that path is usually not conforming it when it's binary, the dark side is, is relatability. The dark side is going into my first pro job. And you're like, man, why am I only drawn to like those three people? Like the way they work, the way they talk, the way they love feedback, the way they give feedback, the way they love being criticized for certain things. So that dark side to do that lonely work and go on that journey with yourself and then raise the fist and say, I want this because being the best in the world at helping other people, that's fun to me. And so that dark side is like, oh, but my habits and behaviors have to match that. So I have always viewed it as an investment where right now in my life and in full vulnerability, I know I need to get better at taking vacations. I need to get better at spending more time with my family. But that, that balance that has been, you know, talked about so much has never, it never has made sense to me. I don't know how you do it when you're competing on the world stage. So the, the rigidness of that is, it's just a real right and you own it. You say, well, like this is who I am and it's how I'm going to be. But then pairing that with a high amount of flexibility, and it's, it's kind of the way I operate in my days, I wake up and the idea is I'm going to be selfish to my binary mode of helping myself grow. So like I'm not going to, I'm going to put this in my body on an empty stomach. I'm going to read, I'm going to info sponge a little bit. But the second I drive and I show up to work, now it's about everybody else. So it's a way that I can do both. And that, that's kind of this idea of institutional leadership, which is no matter what job I've had, I have these standards for myself. I have these behaviors that I really want to match. And ultimately those behaviors are going to drive the systems that we've created that eventually create production. But the minute I drive to that parking lot and I go through that door, the, the ability to like institutionally lead is what is this environment based on the people I'm responsible for asking me to do. So you know, Corey Seager is his own game. Marcus Simian is his own game. Our president is his own game. And once I know the rules of those games, how they operate, how they love, how they feel, I deploy what I hope are unique skills to get the most out of that experience that I do believe drives those outcomes. And that is, it gives me the best of both worlds. I'm true to myself, which is very important. I'm a little bit more on the binary side, but I'm able to separate when it comes, when it becomes about other people. So the minute I step in that building, man, like, you know what, what I do, I love talking about the weather or about hunting. It doesn't move me that much, but I know that person loves it. And for those 10 minutes, I'm going to do that. That's what they need. It fills their cup up. It gets our relationship tight. So that feels really good to me, which is an anchor that I'm not giving up my growth, but that I'm also leaving a conversation or leaving an experience. And we got the most out of that. How long have you been using this framework? This feed myself so I can feed others, feed myself first so I can feed others? Really it started because every job I had, it wasn't, you were, you know, the first three years in the St. Louis system, your St. Louis Cardinals. What years? I want to say 26, 2015 to 2018. So you know, you're thrown into a very high tradition based organization. And your job is to stay in your lane. And that's it. Don't mess things up, right? That's what's being messaged. Were you a player or a coach at that time? Coach. Yeah. So, and I say that because I did that job. And then I jumped from A-Ball to AAA with the Los Angeles Angels. And then there you're a AAA coach. So you're executing whatever the hitting coordinator, which is the guy that's responsible for the minor leagues, you're executing his vision, right? It's kind of execute whatever he wants. Then I go to Cincinnati. I get my first major league job, the Reds. Now I'm an assistant to a head guy. I'm what was your job? Assistant hitting coach for hitting. Yeah, and I say that because I'm executing the vision of other people. Then I get the big job, right? Here's the keys to the offense in San Francisco for the Giants. Well, now it's in a way. It's like, okay, what are you going to do? There's no more. You're not an assistant anymore. So that's when it started for me, Mike, was building a specific plan and strategy that was true to myself, but that was going to be applicable now to this new challenge I was taking on. And what years were that? 2020 and 2021 with San Francisco. And you won coach of the year in 2021. Yes. Okay. Yeah. All right. So how long, so since 20, I want to get the way that you were practicing feed myself. And I want to unpack that because I think anyone that wants to be extraordinary or do well in life needs to understand this, what you're talking about at a deeper level. And I'm right now I'm talking to leaders that are operating in a very stressful environment, especially large enterprise companies where Wall Street is demanding returns and they're still growing, but not growing fast enough for Wall Street. And because of that, having to let go of employees and like, so it's a really intense moment with high ambiguity, high stress for leaders. And what I hear you saying, and you live in that world, the invisible handshake that you and I live in is if we don't help the organization get the outcome that they want. And our approach sounds like it's by getting by transforming, not transactions that or investing in the process to get the outcome is another way to think about it that we're asked, you know what, there's a bus ticket. You know, I'm going to fly back in the jet. There's a bus ticket. So let's go back to the framing and you're doing it as a hitting coach and I'm doing it as a performance psychologist. And so go to the, how much time is that morning process for you? And then what exactly are you doing? And let's just start and stop there. Yeah, I think it's a great place to start is even before we had our first game or first job because you're the context, which I think is really important whether you're in business or anywhere is the ability to balance out what do I want to do? Right. Here it is. It's a blank canvas. Do you want to go under center 50% of the time football and algae? Do you want to be in shotgun? Do you want to run an RPA? I mean, it's your call, your choice. What do you want to do? And just to be clear for those that don't know football that that's American football, that shotgun RPO and what was the third one? Like under center, more traditional, you know, these are ways that you can move that the quarterback moves the ball. Yeah. And there's a philosophy and a style that would fit with those and there's cost benefit to each one of them. Sure. So this is what you're saying. Now I'm thinking about my style, how I'm going to run my offense at the Giants. And so, you know, those three overarching first principles for me, has it stood the test of time? Right? Are we creating simplicity? Right? So I'll go do the heavy work and do the complex work. Let me go to the deep end and I'll bring up a system that's simple, that operates really efficiently in loud, complex environments. And then that last one is that we're constantly pursuing self-interest of our people, right? That's it. So focus on those three things. Our systems are people and then let's just make sure is technical as I can get with all this evolving, limb tracking and brain testing and I have to know that. But there's a filter that's got to go through. Right? So just know that like that's a concept design for me before I even step in. So a part of taking this job was San Francisco. I knew I was going to have two other people that were coming from the minor leagues at other jobs that were going to be kind of in the trenches with me. So it's the three of us. Let's build it. Let's go. The biggest thing for me when I sat there and I thought about, and this is so cool because like imagine being a CEO of a department or a CEO of a business and you have your first meeting, right? And so my brain goes to what do I want them to fill when they walk out of that first meeting? What do I want them to thank? Because they're going to go talk. What are they going to say? So I right away in November, I got that job in November. I knew we weren't going to be in person with them until spring training, February 14th. So what I did, and I've believed in this and I still do this is I'm going to have meetings before the meeting. And it was the context of that situation, which was Buster Posey, three world series wings, Hall of Famer MVP, Evan Longoria, veteran, multiple all star, 100 pounds. All these guys, there was 12 world series rings in this group. I was leading seven of the people were older than me. So that that matters, right, Mike? Yeah. Like, no, it's not me going up in front of the room and saying this. These macro buzzwords, it's what's the reality of the situation I'm walking into? Yeah. Right. And how old are we? I was 31. 31. So I had guys 35, 36, 37. And they had already won a lot. And you hadn't won a championship at that point. No, no, not even on a video game. So, you know, I got a ball, the lowest level of baseball was when I got released. So as a player, yeah. So like there's things I haven't felt that they felt. And to be clear, A ball, double A, triple A, major. So you didn't get a cup of coffee with the majors. No, no, not even. I couldn't even see the cup. Yeah, right. Well, you could see everyone else judging you. Yeah, really well, clear. Very clear. You can see the ball very well. Oh, gosh. Yeah. Oh, my goodness. Okay. But I, you know, we're building a strategy and a lot of it is about what are we not going to do? And that's, that is a, that's okay. You know, sometimes it, because there's so much overhyped, like naive, optimistic, positivity stuff that's out there, in my opinion. And I think it really leads people down blind spots where it's, it's not the truth, which I'm so in love with the truth and honesty. But we, there was things we were going to avoid. Finding Masteries brought to you by defend. I'm really excited to introduce this product to you. One has created some of the world's most advanced recovery where they've got two main products. One is a compression gear and that I, I wear that while I'm training to help me recover faster, which is a weird thing to think about. 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It's a feel great, but the idea that I'm gaining a small advantage, but a meaningful advantage while I'm sleeping for my recovery is awesome, especially in today's high stress, high speed, high demand world that most of us are living in. I love what they're doing on bullish. So if you're looking to take your recovery to the next level, I want to encourage you to go check out defend. That's d fndusa.com. And you'll receive 20% off when you use the code finding mastery at checkout. That's d fndusa.com and enter the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off. Wait, okay, hold on. You just dropped this really cool thing like the over this is it drives me crazy. I want to see if we're talking about the same thing like this reflexive positivity. And I'm not talking about a hardened earned optimism. I'm talking about I'm afraid to say the hard thing, feel the hard thing. And so I'm going to say that it's all going to be good. We'll figure it out. But there's an anxiousness in that. And I do not respond well to that. And it feels really dangerous to me. I am an optimist. I believe and I have trained myself to have this set of beliefs or to have this belief that my capabilities and my teammates capabilities, if we stay in it long enough, we'll figure it out. And so those those team, I'm so I'm really clear on the teammates that I want to be on the team with. And I've worked a long time to say, what do I need to be able to figure shit out in my life? And then so it's I've earned the right to be able to say, wait, hold on. It's reverse order. Most people think, Oh, just train optimism. It's reverse order, what are the capabilities I need to believe that I can solve some stuff. And it doesn't need to be perfect. That's not what I'm saying. But like you have to, I feel like we have to come from a place that when someone says, all right, we'll figure this out. What makes you think that? Well, I don't know. Things just always go according to plan. Who's plan? Like God's plan. Wait a minute. God, active or passive. Now I'm down this weird philosophical thing. Yeah. But I don't know. Absolutely. I'm like, no, I want to know what gives you the right to say that it's all going to be good. Yeah. And that could be a deep philosophical position, a deep belief system, or it could be your anchoring on your history of hard times or that you've solved some stuff and or your anchoring to the capabilities that you know that you've you've refined over time. And if you got all three of those together, history of figuring some stuff out, deep philosophical first principles that you fully aligned to. Yeah. Okay. Whatever that spiritual philosophical set of principles are, and you know that you've earned the right to have a certain set of skills. Now I can talk to myself. I can use myself talk to think about the future in a very purposeful way. And so are we talking about the same thing? It's really well said. I couldn't say it that well, but I can I can tell you how it feels. I want to hear that. It's when you're down seven to zero in the third inning. And here's the principle is that you know who knows the truth is the players, the people, they know it. So if you're down seven zero, this is the visual. It's not my my touch points in in that dugout, right? It's not a we got we're going to be. It's great. We got them right where we want them. No, we don't. And they don't want to the best in the world don't want to hear that. And you know that message is, hey, it's it's not going how we wanted it. No big deal. Stay the course. Right. There's only one thing on my game sheet, like my play call sheet that's filled with all kinds of stuff on the very top of it every day. I write 10 seconds to clarity. That's it. And that's just my signal that no matter what I go to, because I know what they're going to want. I know the probabilistic thinkers that want percentages. I know the guys that want characteristics of how the pitches are moving. There's a lot of analytics in this. Whatever it is, I filters up to 10 seconds of clarity, which is whatever I'm going to tell them, they have to walk away with a clearer picture of what they're going to execute versus a more complex picture. So is this tense? You have 10 seconds to get clear or is this whatever you give them, it's got to get really clear for them in 10 seconds. I have to say it within 10 seconds. You have to say it in 10 seconds. So you have 10 seconds. If I'm going on and on, I have to say it in 10 seconds. Get it down in 10 seconds and make sure it creates clarity. Can I hear that? Yeah. Yeah. Imagine I'm a hitter and I come to you and I say, who's a pitcher? They go, what do you got? Okay. So who's the pitcher that I'm going up? Imagine a scenario where it's the seventh inning, okay? And Corey Seager MVP from the Dodgers now with the Rangers, a very decorated player. He's hitting lead off that inning. So he runs off the field the third out. He's on defense. I think they're heart rate. Think of the think of their brain right now. They sprint off, which is heart. This is how I'm thinking as a coach. He sprints off heart rates up, right? Our baseball players fit. They run a lot and they stand a lot. He runs off joking. Shoking my baseball friends. He takes his stuff. He puts his glove down. He has to go to the batter's box, put a helmet on, put batting gloves on. There's two minutes in between a transition between them, us on defense and us on offense. I take all that into account. What kind of physiological state is he going to come to me at? If he's first up the bat, there's a big deal. It's a really big deal. What is a big deal? It's a big deal. What physiologically state he's going to show up because I know the question's coming. Okay. What do you got? What do you got? It's going to be that simple. It is funny. Like, that is the question. Yeah. What do you got for me? What are we going to do? You know? And then I know Corey. Corey, I know because we've already downloaded this, we've done the work on the front end. And this sounds silly, but I plan these questions out before the season starts. We're not going to be reactive. Hey, when you're leading off and in and it's a new picture, what do you want? What helps you be at your best? It sounds silly and I think advice is super dangerous and I'm probably easily the most insignificant person ever on this podcast. But what else? Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. You've had some impressive people. Yeah, but why do you just slip in that? Where's that come from? Because advice is dangerous. No, I'm down with that, but this other part, I'm totally down with advice. I think it's really dangerous to assume that you know what's right for somebody else. Oh, gosh. It's always been on my heart, too. Seriously, I have a real reaction. Yeah, I have a real reaction. People think advice. But what I love saying is... But I want to learn. Yeah. Here's what I've learned from other people. Here's some big takeaways. Oh, yeah. And that feels right to me. Yeah. But here's a crime. Yeah. In my takeaway... Oh, no, no, no, no, sorry. Here's a crime, I think. Okay. That's what you should do. That's like a crime, I guess you may... Let me give you some advice. Let me give you some advice. Gosh, that feels so arrogant. And so, yeah, it's just not real to me. Yeah. But it is comfortable saying, here's some big takeaways that I've learned from other people that are doing this much better than I am. And I've learned so much from people that have been on this podcast. And that's why I joke about the insignificance is I go back to day one of like when you started the Facebook community. Oh, yeah, I think so. I mean, so not to get too off track, but man, awesome. The community you've created, it's special. And I was there from the beginning. Yeah. And in many ways I had to... I got in the last five years, I probably listened to two or three. But on- Two or three. Two or three podcast. On the- You've only listened to two or three podcast. I know, sorry, man. On the front end, I was doing it all the time, right? I love that. Here's why though. Here's why. Yeah. I was so in line with the... There's no three steps, there's no five steps, they're like, stop with that. Like go on the journey and expect back stuff to show up. I was so in line with what you were doing. I knew I had to get away. I had to go right my own book. I had to go figure it out. That's what's up. I've had two or three people that have impacted me that way around like, ooh, I gotta go. I gotta go do my own work. Because that's... I think the people that impact you the most are the people that push you away. Oh, cool. In a way they're giving you so much that resonates. And it's so easy to just go to them. But I think at some point, like you read books or you write books, you take notes or you create notes. I wanted to start creating my own notes. Damn, dude, this is cool. This is really cool. For a couple of reasons, right? You're there right when we're starting this thing up. You're taking great notes and you're like, hey, I gotta go create some notes. What a cool framing. Okay, this is awesome. So let's go right back to Seager. What do you got for Seager in that moment? Yeah, so we've done the work on the front end, right? Which was the takeaway as we say, for anybody listening to this, if you're in a position where you're responsible for trust is put in you to lead people, if you are reactive to a situation when it doesn't go well, I think a good question to ask is, well, did you do the work on the front end? So I know guys are gonna come off the field and they're gonna have to lead off and their heart rate's gonna be up and it's gonna be messy. So before the season starts, I asked them, hey, it's gonna be messy. Your heart rate's gonna be up. What do you want me to say in that situation? What do you like? So we do that. Hey, when you're leading off, how do you want to be coached? Yeah, hey, when it's not going well, hey, three sales calls are gonna go really bad for you. I'm gonna observe it. Do you like feedback that day? Do you like feedback the next day? I see some things where I can help you. When do you best receive feedback? A lot of people, probably like the education side of America, which I'm super passionate about, but we do a terrible job of coaching and helping people receive feedback and give feedback. We're just, and we're really bad about it in the sporting world, but Corey Seeger. So we've done the work on the front end, 10 seconds to clarity. I know what Seeger, what he loves. So it can be as simple as like Corey is fast, but he's gonna have cut. He's gonna throw your breaking balls. Just see it up and closer to you. Three things. So he always, he always wants to know, do you stay technical with him? With him. He wants to know how the fastball is going to move because they don't, they throw it straight. Sometimes it sinks and it's very important to know whether it's going to go down or whether it's going to feel like it goes up. He wants to know if it's going to go up. So I have to tell him, hey, this fastball is going to have Kerry. It's going to feel like it's going up. And then he really wants to know where he needs to set his eyes. It's a really cool thing. It's really cool. So if I know there's a certain shape and I go in and I study the vertical nature of how a ball moves and the horizontal nature and I study the release heights coming from. So to geek out, like that is, as much as we've, we built a system, the human system takes precedence over the coaching and athletic system. Okay. I'll open that up a little bit. Well, I told you a first principle of mine was systems. So I know inside of that system, right there, you got to put the ball in the end zone. You got to score runs. You got to make cells. We know. So my job is to build a system that not only makes our players valuable throughout the minor leagues and the big leagues, right? It creates value for them in the organization, which is just being very productive. It's my job to really get in the weeds and be technical about that. So we have a system in place for how we help people move better, whether it's how we assess their human movement and then how we help them move more efficiently. We have a system in place for how we actually want their map path to move and we have a system in place for how we game plan. So that's the coaching side. That's the athlete system. Well, the more important system to me is the human system. Because biology. Yeah, we're that's not going to show up. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So Corey Seager is he's the human system of him is so much more important to me. And it's what's going to allow the athlete system to show up and produce. And that does not happen if we don't do it in the way that he needs it. And it's not to single him out. We treat everybody like that. Now Corey is an MVP. He's one of the best players in baseball. Every single guy is that to me. Coach them the same way. Treat them the same way. So they deserve the same process. Treat them equally different, equally special. Treat them all the same. Like there's two ways that I'm trying to understand here. So there's the old, you know, we don't treat anyone differently. We treat them all the same or or we treat each person uniquely different, which is like I'm trying to see the special in you and you and you. And then the that is the system. Yeah. Which way do you go here? I'll I'll flip it around to you. Okay. Do you think there are coaches that would prepare differently? And if the the rubric was, hey, you have a meeting with Tom Brady. And you got to walk them through the entire game plan on third downs. So we go here. That's what you're done tomorrow. You're going to meet with the the practice slot quarterback. Does he prepare differently? I bet I just know that I was guilty of that at a younger age. In my early times, I just you put people on a pedestal and I and I felt that because I asked for feedback. One of the best things I could do. His name was Danny and this was my second year coaching with the Cardinals and he said, man, I loved my time with you. He goes, I just have one thing though. I said, what's that? Danny's a Danny's a dinka. He said, when I was injured, you stop talking to me. I was like, okay, I remember being very emotional with this and I'm I'm learning that I'm like way more emotional. It's just really about like human beings that I'm responsible for. I can go through tough stuff and be pretty binary with it. But man, if I feel like I've let somebody down, he told me that and he had a broken wrist. I stopped coaching him. Whether I like it or not, I really fell in that moment. And when he gave me that feedback, one, I said, Oh gosh, I need to be better at creating internal systems where I'm getting feedback more because I never would have thought of that. I didn't. I was focused on the guys that were going to drive results and I stopped coaching him. He still needed me. So I let him down. It was a really good lesson to learn. So I don't ever want any Bernard environment to feel that I'm coaching Core Seeker differently that I'm coaching the rookie. So that's that's what I mean by that. Yeah. And for the record is that when folks are not in the field, the training room is a really hard room. That's a very, very difficult room for people. The training room is when it's it's a place where you go for prehab. It's also a place you go for rehab. And so rehab is like trying to put something back together that is keeping you from doing the thing that you want to be doing. And at least there is a place in sport. And again, it's a lonely place. But in non sporting environments in let's say big business or whatever, we don't even have a place. And so what do we do? Like when somebody's not doing well, they get ignored. Right. Exactly. And so by the average leader, the average coach, the great coaches to your point of what you just said in the scar tissue you have is that they're going into they're going into the cave with people. They're pulling them out. They're knowing how that person wants to be treated in a cave. Maybe it's just standing by the cave's door and say, Hey, I'm here for you when, you know, or it's going into grabbing them, you know, because that's what they want to your point about how do you want to be coached. And the easy is just to be like all the persons in a cave, they're, you know, they're shitting the bed or whatever, and I'm on to the next, that's a brutal way to lead and to build. And it's really pretty common. So yeah, you're not in your head like, yeah, it's even going back and put myself in that situation, telling that story is I needed to go through that. And it's back to the human being is that is the most valuable thing in this entire, you know, existence for us that it's just super seeds that coaching system. So let's talk about feedback for a moment. And then I want to understand how you use your athletic system and the human system to help with failure and mistakes. But let's talk about feedback. And the way that I think about feedback is that I want to understand just to what you're saying, how does the person like feedback private public is one way. Do you want me to ease my way in? Do you want me to be super concrete with the thing that we're trying to improve on easing in as like, I love when you did A, B and C. And now I'm going to give you kind of the other thing that I want to see improvement in or some sort of change. Do you like when I say it or give questions? Okay. And then the other is timing immediate. Do you want me to interrupt and stop? No. Okay. Yes. Gotcha. Do you want to wait for it? Like this is the timing immediate right after practice. Or right during a break right after practice within six hours, 12 hours, 24 hours. And there's like a gold standard there. Yeah. Right. Like 24 hours later, it's kind of gone. You know, 12 hours is almost gone. Six hours were almost outside the glow. And within one to two hours, we're still in a sweet spot. But some people like it like right away and some people that's overwhelming. Yeah. So those are the levers or variables that I choose for feedback. And then my job is to be incredibly sensitive and accurate. I like that. Sensitive to the person and accurate with what I'm seeing or asking about. And so what, how do you do it? I really like how you've kind of deconstructed that. So I have a system for it. And I think I'll look up in three years, five years and I'll probably tweak the system. But I think you've probably gathered this from this conversation. If I have a system for our offense and I don't have a system for feedback or for trust, like I personally am not good. I get lost all over the place. I have a system for confidence and we can we can tug on that confidence for you or confidence confidence just for how I look at people and how I want to set up the environment. But this feedback for me is it is the work on the front end, which is asking those questions very similar to what I'll add that has worked for me. And it gives me a little bit of liability or a little bit of freedom in it is I do I give it to two ways, which is I'm going to give you some feedback. This feedback is just information. You choose what you want to do with it. It's in their best interest too. So I give feedback that's information based, which is it's up to you, whatever you want to do with this. And then I give I'll give feedback that's a little bit more directive. You know, we're really needed to implement some change here. And I'll just say that the consistency of that feedback loop is only as good as the work that's been known on the front end to say that, Hey, our environment is going to be back to self interest. It's to help you pursue your best. So if we haven't created these feedback loops, like, can I actually say that I love you? Because that that word love is that is the most powerful anchor that I want to coach through. And so not love like fuzzy, warming, all this stuff. But man, I'm like, when it's tough, when it's good, like, I'm going to cover your blind spots and I'm going to give you the truth. We're going to do I'm going to honor you and we're going to do things through transparency. So our feedback loops, whether it's we have ones that are on the wall that are our North stars, KPIs just like businesses have, it's just letting us let an individuals know and the team know, are we on track season long? Are we on track? And then what do we do yesterday? To your point of 24 hours. But then we stem that down and each individual, we've already done the work on the front end. The same way we built a plan and the way they've done it, we've created feedback loops in the way that they want it. And you'll find that most people, they don't know yet, but man, do they appreciate you asking. And that just gives them the space, which I tell them, it's like the setting their plans, which we were kind of talking about like, how do I approach that? Some guys, they have numbers and they're like, I want these numbers. I want to be an all star. And then you walk into Brandon Crawford, who's the starting shortstop for the Giants. And the stuff that comes out of him is about his kids. He wants that he wanted a contract extension. He was on the last year of his deal when I got there. The thing that I got from him is my kids are getting older and want them to continue to watch me play. I want an extension. I knew it was a contract extension. Invisible handshake, we got to perform better. We know. But what I got out of Brandon was this father and this husband, he wants his kids in the seats. He's played there 10 years. It's not time. It's not my time. I want my kids to watch me play more. Do you, I get goosebumps talking about it. When you go into meeting after meeting and some guys want numbers and all stars and money, that's great. I don't judge that. Why wouldn't you want that? But then you get the guy that talks about his family and his kids. So people ask me like, Oh gosh, why do you have to fill the eight o'clock? And what about vacations right now in my life? It fills me up so much to go grab every resource I can to be as sharp as I can to be as on it as I can for a guy like that to go have the all star year he did and to get a three year extension. Right. And he's texting me yesterday. He's going out to the Eagles game. He's sitting behind trout and he's, but he's taken Braxton to son, you know, and it's like, those relationships are still there. I don't coach him anymore, but I know he's getting a chance to finish his career as a giant. And you know, that's so much bigger than the 30 home runs. All that's cool. But you don't judge and you just don't know what they're going to say, just like feedback. You don't know what they're going to say. But man, the, the gap between the responsible work I do on the front end, which is kind of what you're saying when you go into these plans. I have the answers in my back pocket objectively for where we got to go. Right. If you're hitting too many ground balls, I know we got to get the ball in the air. I have that work done. But now once I have the answers in my back pocket, I'm measuring the distance between what objectively is happening and what they think is happening. The bigger the distance, the more my pace, my tone, my tenor is dictated. If there's a big gap, if I walk in with a guy and I know he is not performing. Picture a salesperson going in for my assessment. He's been here six months. He's the worst performer. He, he does no, no conversions. And I go in there and he's like, I love it, man. I'm doing great. We've got a lot of work to do because that gap between what's objectively happening and what he thinks is big. And maybe you really value him. So to me, that just dictates, man, we might have to go to slower pace because all the stuff you want to do, he might not be ready for versus we've had guys Brandon Crawford. Great example, I went in with that same thing. Very, we're in Scottsdale. I haven't coached him in a game. We've talked with all the key alphas. Hey, like, what do you think of this? This, making sure that nothing shows up in that environment in San Francisco that they haven't put their stamp on. They're not walking in a meeting, ever surprised with something they see. That was a very key strategy for that job. So I did that to Brandon Crawford, right? I said, Hey, if there's anything you want to talk about with your swing or hitting, you know, I'm here for you. He's like, Oh, cool. And I'm kind of waiting for that. And I see him the next time, once again, measuring the gap between what's actually happening versus what does he think, knowing what this guy wants. What does that last part and explain Brandon Crawford for folks that they've told as well? So one of the best short stops to ever play, he's gosh, super decorated. Most games played 10 years at a premium position, has put his body on the line multiple world series was at the kind of tell in, you know, typically when you get into your 30s, is any performer, there's, you know, objectively a drop off and, and you know, he was on the last year of a deal and fans love him. He's an amazing human. He's the guy that was like, I want to finish my career. I want a contract extension. And so you mentioned the two variables, the objective, how did you just call it reality, the objective assessment? Yeah, what's he actually doing? Yeah, versus the, what is he? Thank you's doing. And then what was the third variable that you added there? The third is that plan he told me about, which is, oh, this guy wants to finish his career here, which is important, right? Because I know that objectively it's not going well. And I know why. And I have ideas. Well, when Brandon Crawford walks in and says, Hey, when I go, Hey, you know, if you want to talk or if you got some ideas of what you want to work on, let me know. It was very important that I was non-invasive. You know, let's do it at your pace. And he goes, well, I was hoping you would right away. So what does that mean? It's game on the gap. He knows. He knows it's not going well. He's been around a long time. He doesn't want to wait. So versus coming in hot all the time on every guy, you're going to miss on 50% of people. So it's okay to know the plan and know what he wants. I also know objectively it's not going well. Now if Brandon goes, I feel good, like he's just been a bad luck. It's going to be a lot more. I'm going to lean a lot more on the artistic side to move that player towards the plan. Yeah, because it's like blaming or pointing to an external uncontrollable as opposed to an internal controllable. That's it. Yeah. As soon as he said, I was hoping you would, the gap small. Yeah. All right. You want to meet tomorrow? Let's go over it. Yeah, let's still be there. Got to work. Yeah. That's a good that's a cool framing. Yeah. So like the urgency is like, like I love being patient artistically and then patience is not passiveness. You know, I think of it like aggressive in the discipline of my day being present over the course of 24 or 12 months, 24 months. So I can be patient, but I, and I can be long term aggressive, but it's not passiveness, right? No, it's not. And we built out a whole framework for bands of coaching with masterful coaching being at the top, obviously. And one of the things that we observed is that coaches who are masterful at their craft, they ask more questions. So their feedback is typically in the form of asking a question to elicit an insight or calibration and to see if the person understands or what they're understanding and then to match that with the observations from the coach. So simple as if you're the athlete and on the coach in this instance, it's as simple as this. Okay. So what did you see out there? Right? Like, and then so now we're getting into a feedback loop. And what the masterful coach is doing is what you are doing is trying to understand the gap. And if it's not a gap, it's trying to understand what their experience is. And if you can understand their experience, then you can better understand, you know, how to guide, how to nudge. As opposed to the amateur coach, which is saying, okay, listen, you got to keep your shoulders here or your elbows here or make sure your back foot is here. And then now they're like, oh my God, what are we talking about? So anyways, that's really cool. Let's talk about failure. Yeah. Baseball is a game of failure. What does that mean to you? So a lot of my design to how I approach my job is the context. So I partner two things and I'm in love with so if we're approaching human beings, I'm going to go back. I told you from the beginning, what's timeless? Well, let's go to the biological design of human beings. So I factor number one is like, what's the biological design of these people I work with? So we know what's going on in the brain. Like we know survival. We know, we know what it's primed to do, right? Like we have our brains have not evolved, but our problems have. And then I go, I almost think, what's the biological design of the sport that I happen to be in? And it's as simple as like football, right? They play on a Sunday. They have six days. You have six days. You have that six days of responses. Oh, it's such a luxury to do whatever you want, right? So but I think the biological design of the sport I'm in is every single night they have to perform. What you guys do is insane. It almost looks like you're practicing every day. Yeah. There's no, there's very little practice. It's game lights are on. And you know, it's kind of a warm up. Yeah, it's like it's the monotony is incredible. Well said. The. And it also wrecks marriages. Like like from the support staff standpoint. I haven't been there yet, but it's um, I'm I'm already doing work that when that comes, I'm I'm somebody that that's that's healthy because I have seen it. And I'm the person that's standing up here really saying, you know, I don't believe in balance. I believe I'm going to be immersed into whatever I'm doing. So if I'm with my family, go be an uncle, like be a family guy. When I'm in my job, 100% there when I go home, it's not 100%. Right? Like you getting bed. This is the dark side. Oh my God. Right. Dark side is dark side is I'm in bed. And I know a guy's struggling. I'm feeling it. I'm struggling. I can't move past that until he does. So the locking of arms with the human being back to the design of biological design, the brain as we I mean, you know, it's better than anybody. It is not the brain's not telling us like, Oh man, let's go be amazing. And let's go conquer. It's like setting up parameters and making sure you're safe and all those fear detectors. And then the design of our sport is also saying, if you were the best, you're going to fail 70%. The best. Most guys are film like 80 to 85%. That's average. So picture design of the brain. These are my humans. This is what they're going. They're trying to survive. And we put them in a sport where they're going to fail almost 80%, 70% of your elite. And what other field can you have a 30% success rate and be considered elite and where they want to keep you? I mean, is there another field? Well, I'm glad you're bringing it up because you added the where they're going to keep you. And so where I was going right before you added that was I think that that might be modern business. I don't think the success rate in business is any better. Let me let me open that up. In when we're as fortunate as a work across a couple of Olympic games and in particular, what I'm thinking about volleyball indoor USA women's volleyball, every ball that they touched or didn't touch had a statistic to it. Somebody was measuring everything that they did. And then it was public and it was force ranked. So you're trying to compete against three other women that are just about equally as skilled as you are. It's a four year tryout to make the Olympic team. You get notified like two weeks before that you've made the squad. So it's a volunteer position and there's no second job. So just imagine the context here for just a moment and everything that you do is publicly has a statistic in force ranking. First of all, most humans cannot handle that. That's incredible stress, incredible stress for that. So business isn't even close to those types of conditions that are required in some respects to know how to help somebody get better. Baseball, everything's static as well. So where I'm going with this is that in the world of business, I don't have a feedback loop if the email I sent was good, not good, great. I don't know. Who gives me that feedback? There's not a coach that's saying, hey, when you're on that call and you pause for those three seconds, that was good, not so good, or that was great. So I could be blowing it all day long and I don't have a feedback loop and I could have lots of failures and I don't know how to get better. And when you've got hundreds of thousands of people working in one organization or 50 people working in an organization without some sort of coaching or feedback loops, I'm bringing up right now. I don't know what the rate of failure is. And so you can celebrate got the job or made the sale didn't get the sale. But on the podcast, lots of people watch didn't watch, but it's all outcome based and it's not real time feedback on the inputs to get that output. So what other industry? I think the lack of feedback in where most humans, adults spend most of their time, it's not even existent. And so what's unique about baseball is that 70, 80% of the time it's public failure. And even if it's not globally public, is a large community that you guys are in front of and it's public in front of their teammates and the coaches that are sometimes inspecting, sometimes guiding, whatever that role takes for folks. So how do you help them make the mistakes? Because in business, people say, fail fast, fail forward, fail off and like we're here to support you. But then if you don't get the outcome, you're out. It's lip service, you know, in many respects. So how do you help them work with that failure? Yeah, I think it all goes back to doing the work on the front end, which is here's our humans. Here's our system. And then we know, like it goes back to the neutral side of this, which is not overly optimistic and the naive optimism is just to go in and like it's going to be great all this stuff. Like we talk as a, as an offensive department, kind of what I'm tasked to lead, you know, the trust that's been put in me, we work on this before it happens. So hey, this is going to happen. These things are going to happen. So we talk a lot about user experience, environmental design. I mean, these are things that I've like, wait, like you, you coach baseball and you're, you know, batting gauge a lot in a field and it's like, yeah, but you know, Silicon Valley and these, these places have been talking about how to gamify things and create user experience and environmental design and the music and the ambiance. And then just our approach to human beings. And you know, earlier we talked about like how a lot of words in society have been hijacked. And I know that's just a bias for me that I'm interviewing people a lot in the job setting and I just, you hear like, okay, they're trying to say these five words. And so one interesting word for me is, is like the phrase core values. Okay. And so we have first principles, you can call them core values. We have the same thing in our, in our offensive department. And but I'm, I'm very clear with, I have two guys that I'm responsible for that I work with at the big, big level. I have two coordinators in the middle. So that's four. And then I have seven hitting coaches in the mile weeks. So I have 11 people, sometimes 12, but I'm really like responsible for. So we talk about this all the time is everybody's got quotes up on a wall and core values. And most people have T shirts and it's just once again, like, I don't want to see stuff up on the wall if we're, we're not living it. And it's, it's even the word culture, Mike. It's like, man, I'm almost so tired of hearing it. Just let me, let me fill it. Let me, let me talk to your people. So we offensively, everybody knows it's really important to have a culture, but even offensively, it just really bring a lot of awareness to these words. Once they get really mass, mass, you know, popularity, they start to take on all these other things. So let's go back to the origin core values. I told you, you know, how we move and how we game plan and self interest. Well, what are core values? We go back to the Latin root and like, Corazon and it's heart. So our failure in our sport, our system is set like we're going to move people's hearts. And this goes back to love. And it's like, it's the, it's the one thing that's at the bottom. If we thin slice everything, well, Kobe on this day, rest in peace, right? So Kobe, man, he worked really hard. Well, why? He loved it. Like you can go through all these people are elite and like at the very bottom of this is love. So we talk about love and we talk about core values. It's been hijacked and these words are put up like accountability and humility and it's like, well, what's, what's the origin of core? And you go back to Latin root and it's heart and it's like, okay, like if we want production to show up, if we want to help them through tough times, our job is to really transition and move our move their heart, right? Through ours, through everything we do. So you just that, that guard goes down when you sit down with people beforehand and you ask them certain things like, Hey, when it's going really tough, what do you, what do you like? Like, do you need space? Do you need? Do you want me to be on top of you? Like, do you like that more and you're going to get answers on both sides? And it does, it goes back to relationship and trust, but we value the asking the question so much and then knowing we're going to invest the time with them and we're going to be there right with them the whole time through the struggle. There's no, there's no like they're a performer. We're a coach. It's, it's really like a locking of the arms and we go with you. Hmm. I feel it. Who in the big leagues inspires you players that you have spent time with is what I'm thinking of. It really is players. Yeah. So in particular, what's a player that really inspires you? Take my time around Buster Posey. Buster Posey, what makes him special? The how comfortable he is being who he is. That's really cool. If you could speak right into leaders in business right now, if they knew what you knew about helping people, what would they be doing differently? What would they be making sure that they're doing? I would say don't worry about the word leading. Move into it. Move into individuals through their heart, move them towards, towards best interests of themselves and the company and then move groups. Like, can you, can you just move people on? And it resonates with me because it really creates a, a freeing aspect of, man, like, I want to help that person. And then that person's in charge of this department. I want to help that department. And you're just helping them pursue their best in the way that's true to them. And it's written on our walls and our, our room in the offensive room. And it's, it is nine on one. There's nine players. So our group is nine guys every night against one pitcher. And underneath it though, it says be you within us. So we're, we're, you know, I think it's so congruent to business as well, which is, do you want to follow the military model? Or do you want to be a little bit more, you know, high performance Navy's sales? It's different. So you can get everybody to stand in a straight line and wear the same shirt, but your, your ceiling is, is you can get efficiency, your ceilings lower. So how do we, as leaders, as people that want to move, move people, how do we maximize the uniqueness of the individual within the structure of us? You've spent your career working with some of the best in the world. What would you speak into parents that one day maybe their kid is going to be really good at a sport or an art or anything? And let's just imagine this scenario that there's an incredible talent that ends up on your team. And if you could, and the talent, and they have high work ethic and they've got the natural ability, but they're kind of like fragile maybe, or there's just something that is like, it's hard for them to get loose and free. And if you could go and speak to the parents when those, when they were parenting the kid at age, then say 14. What would you say to those parents? Welcome to ice cream, but really, you know, design, design as much flexibility as you can for kids. And they're going to tell you what they love. And I'll tell you a story of the, the family that kind of took me in at 14 has raised me ever since. The oldest brother was my best friend. That's how I became a part of the family. You go from hanging out at their house in summer to them kind of going, do you have structure kid, you know, then you're in their house in high school and then before you know it, they're raising you ever since, right? So yeah, that's how it happens. You know, of course. But the oldest Joey had his first daughter, Peyton. And I was, she's seven years old now, and Peyton changed my life because I was, as I've fully been vulnerable with, I was really binary. I was pursuing what I thought was, was best and I wanted, wanted to be the best in the world at helping other people. So then I literally held Peyton for the first time at the airport in San Francisco. Super small, like a moment, you know, there's, there's everything's a moment, but then there's these moments that are a little bit, they weigh, they weigh differently. And it was as simple as Joey saying, Hey, just watch her for like five minutes and we go get, get our bags. And I hear I have this newborn and I'm looking down at her and I know now I'm, you know, I'm going to be the uncle. And that was the first time I had felt like, Oh, like, I can't let you down. Like true. And I, and I know there's a whole other evolved level to this with being a parent someday, but even being an uncle to Peyton has taught me unconditional love. And it's taught me this feeling of like, Oh my gosh, like, I have to do right by you in every single circumstance. So I'm back home for the holidays recently. And I asked Peyton catching up with her and like, Hey, what's your, you know, you're doing soccer, you're doing dance, you're doing softball. She's playing all kinds of stuff. They put her in everything, right? And which I love. And they're just kind of letting her do her thing. And I said, what's your favorite out of all of them? Like, what do you love? And she goes, dance and she lights up and I go, that's awesome. And she goes, but it's the hardest, but I love it. And I was like, ah, you know, and I made up, I went set Joey and Lauren down. And I was just like, Hey, that's it. You don't have to do anything. Leave it be. Don't over coach it. Don't she just basically said the adult version, which I believe in, which is if it's miserable and it's tough and you sprint towards it and that brings out joy in you, man, spend time there. It's a beautiful thing. And she figured that out at seven. It's really difficult. It's the hardest and I love it the most. If the car ride home is hard for parents and kids from sport practice, what would you want parents to do or not do during that time? So I think one thing that's very important to me, top of my list is the kids are we're modeling. So everything we do we're modeling and the kids are connecting the stimulus to the parent. So if you're focused on their outcomes, man, you're like, you went, that's so cool. You got two hits, simple language. That kid now is connecting his value to his parent through the two hits. That's what he heard. Right? So gosh, man, you made this air. Like if it just becomes result based, is that a formula that's sticky for the rest of our life? Right? Man, I'm so excited. You got to A plus the kid here is a plus. You got to see minus like that. We don't do that. We got to get A's. What if you just changed the A plus like, hey, I noticed that you studied a little bit extra. You know, do you think that led to that really good grade? Like if we can highlight and just keep focusing on the means and the process, to me, I'm always looking what transfers to their life. That's cool, man. Like, yeah, we need to focus on what actually transfers to the good stuff showing up more and just be disconnected as much as we can. Let's not wrap their identity in an outcome. Okay. Last thing before you go. One, I want to say thank you for sharing the honesty and the brilliance of how you've expressed what you've been working on for the last couple of decades. So thank you for the time and the highest compliments that you've also given me. But I really appreciate just how clear and thoughtful and how much you care about helping people move. So that's a huge takeaway. I just want to say thank you. And before we wrap, we didn't get into the part like, what is your morning routine? What are the things that you do to invest in your sense of self? Yeah. And thank you too. I love these because they're unscripted. And I love the vulnerability of knowing that I'm going to look up in three years, five or seven years. And I should have looked, I should look back and be like, ah, you know, I've tweaked that. That was lacking this. I love like, if I don't do that, then something's wrong. So appreciate you having me on here. We'll have to do something way down the road and see what we're missing. Yeah. Yeah. But the morning for me is, um, is, you know, it's like healthy selfishness. So, um, and it was disciplined. So I want to start off my day as simple as it is empty stomach. I get my athletic greens in, which I know like is a thing is a thing on the show. Yeah. I loved it. All of our athletes are using it. It is my favorite thing on the market. Oh, awesome. Yeah. Not to plug them, but we're going to plug them. Yeah. So I go base athletic greens. I let that digest and I, I just try to read. I read for 30 minutes and I just want to just prime. Um, so sometimes I'll, I'll, I'll go outside, but the reading for me is important. Um, and then I do have, you know, a little bit of an entrepreneurial side with some other businesses. Um, I try to, to just loop back in and, and, um, you know, one of them is blended, the robotics company and, and they're, we're doing cool stuff. We're finally on college campuses and then I'll do what is the name of it blended? Yeah. VL E and D. Yeah. VL E and D ID. The ID blended.com. Yeah. Yeah. So it's, um, the, the, the version two, version three is really the idea of like, can we recreate, um, grandma's recipe from a robot right from your phone? So right now it's smoothies and organic stuff. So on college campuses and it's, it's growing nice and Vippin James, a tremendous, tremendous amount of a robot cook grandma's recipe. That's what we want to get to. And we will right now the right now it's a smoothie in any way you want it. Um, they're, they're starting to be at airports and so hopefully you see some more stuff. I saw one at San Francisco. I don't know if it's this. That's like, that's where they're based out of. Yeah. Okay. So that's, that's going. And you know, you want to just let those guys know you're, you're thinking about them and what can we learn? And then, and the other one is called blue maka and it's, it's all environmental friendly. There are souls that go in shoes. Um, we've created a way to, to basically create less micro slipping and still kind of under the radar, which is kind of, I know, yeah, it's, it's, yeah, but it's been cool. Blue maka, blue maka. Yeah. Yeah. Stewart is the inventor of him and, um, it's BLU, M-A-K-A. It's great man. They're all, it's all made from recyclable items. And really the idea is if we can put this in a shoe, what's, which athletes, these guys are making millions in a high performance environment, mostly choose shoes because they look a certain way. And when we think of like the margins that are out there, performance of making one slight move, if we can create more stability in a way an athlete moves, like we win. So we've tested this biomechanically all year, gotten great results. So it's, it's, it's been fun. And is the soul on top of the insole or underneath the insoles? Yeah, we can do both. Yeah, we can do both. So that's, that's going well. And, um, we've talked about business a lot. And I think it's, it's something that I really admire about the business space. And I know a lot of your audience is that and it's why I'm drawn to it is every day they have to perform every day, which is unique. Yeah. That's not an excuse for them to continue to learn, grow and be a good teammate. And that's, that's why my heart is there. They're, the game is asking something of me. And I know I have to perform as a win and loss on top of that though. That's, that's baseline on top of that is am I still learning? Am I still growing? Am I still being a really good teammate and business teachers? That you, you have to do those things. You don't get, I know you love those six days, but you don't get those six days off. So yeah, so I'm, I'm touching base with the companies. And then, you know, if I'm in season, I'm, I'm typically having my breakfast and then I'm on my way to the field. I'm at the field by 9 a.m. today. And that's my selfish time to work out. And then it's all about kind of the only kind of rule standard I have for myself is my head's not in the computer when the guys are in the building. So I have from nine till about two, do the heavy lifting, get the systems and the game planning done. But it's just a matter of we, we try to have our athletes see the game plan and see what they're going to do five times before we have our game plan. So touch points, right? Like, what is your culture? Like, what are you, well, these guys see it. They have it on their phone. They see it on the TV. They see it on the whiteboard. Like, so we don't have to overcrowd them with it, but we create simplicity, not through our words, but by certain ways that they see it and fill it. Very cool. Yeah. So I know I said last question, but I've got two more. Okay. What's next for you? Are you considering head coaching? Is that part of your future? I've never had like five year plans or I've never had what's next. I've always been in my dream job. So like the world, I don't want to say it doesn't need sport, but it's also not education, food, shelter. So I think just a ton of gratitude that I get to do what I do. But I'm really just immersed in figuring out how can we be as good as we can be with Texas. So what's next is like thinking about buying a dog. That's cool. Yeah. I'm fan of Australian labor doodles and I'm not buying your bullshit right now. Yeah. Do you want to be a coach? I love leading and the more responsibility I can have, it does make me come alive. If that, if that shows up. You'd be a great skipper. You'd be a great coach. Like what, why are you kind of dancing a little bit here? I think that like, do you really not think that way or are you trying to play a political game? Like I don't want, you know, I don't want people to think that I'm coming for their job or sure, sure. Not understand. Man, you're on it. I have a lot of apprehension for the things that I think are really valuable to stepping into that chair. And so I think a lot of people are really drawn to the next position. I'm really in love with the triangle that exists at the top of responsibility and that in, you know, this ownership front office head coach. So I don't just, you know, think about jumping, jumping to that chair. I'm in love with what I do. And, and I've always chased, um, if the responsibility and the people are there, if that's there, then let's have a conversation. Yeah. That's really not exciting. I believe now I believe you. Yeah. Now I believe you like high regard for how important it is to have that triangle together and high regard for that position. You're not trying to rush it. It's coming, dude. Like I'm listening to how you're working with people and helping build systems and humans to be their very best, you know, foundational way that is born out of curiosity, early ages for you, experimentation, you know, like kind of figuring out what's happening. And then you're grounded in love and real deep care for other people. Open to ideas, highly conscientious. You don't get rolled over with agreeableness, but you're so likable and enjoyable to be around that people want to, you know, also be a good partner and teammate to you. I think self-admitted, you're like, yeah, I came from some places and it was hard, but you don't present with a neuroticism that it's all about you and a narcissism. You don't have any of that going on, which is like a massive asset, internally motivated. You'll take the external rewards, but that's not what's driven. You're more interested in unlocking what's possible for you and other people. At the same time, you've got this radical ability to see good in other people. I don't know if you're hard on yourself, but I don't get that you'd be hard on other people, which is your coaching style, which is awesome, which is those are the types of coaches I like to be around. I think the mistakes that you might make are not many, but it's probably saying yes too often because you know that you're capable of much. You might take on a lot. I just think that you've got such strong foundations in who you are based on the way that you've been raised that I bet on you 100%. I think owners, like I hope when the skipper job comes up for you, I hope the ownership listens to this and be like, oh yeah, bet on him. It means a lot for you to say I appreciate that. Cool man. All right. And then what does it mean to be a master? What is mastery? That last question. Yeah. What is mastery? I've evolved. I've thought about this question for like a decade in different ways. And it would have been a long paragraph 10 years ago and five years ago, it would have been three sentences and where I am right now with it. And I do think about it of the people I'm responsible for. So I'll have to keep building like what that is for me. But right now, mastery to me, especially for the people I'm responsible with, like over over arching, I want them to be able to go into as many environments as possible and be who they are. When I thin slice that, mastery is the combination of self awareness and an application. Can we be self aware and then can we go do it? And that's really what I want for our people. I love that. I love this simplicity in that as well. Awesome brother. Wishing you absolute best. Likewise man. Thank you again. Joy. Okay. Thank you so much for tuning into another episode, another conversation with finding mastery. 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