Dealing With Your Feelings: Purpose, Death, and Perfectionism | AMA Vol. 10 with Dr. Michael Gervais

I got a call on the way in today from a friend of mine. He says, I got some news. I've got six months to live. I mean, what do you do with that information? Welcome back or welcome to another ask me anything on finding mastery. I'm your host, Dr. Michael Jervet by trade in training a high performance psychologist and the purpose behind these conversations, behind these AMAs is to hear from you to explore the topics and questions that you've been wrestling with on your path to becoming. The goal is to expand on the themes and lessons and best practices that we've discussed on the finding mastery podcast in order to make them even more applicable to your own life. Now, our co-host, O'Neill Sespitus is back. Just make sure that we keep it real. We dive into your questions on how to find your purpose, dealing with your feelings, why perfectionism is a fool's game, designing your life for your eulogy and so much more. So with that, let's jump right into volume 10 of finding masteries, ask me anything. O'Neill, AMA number 10. Number 10, Dr. Michael, how you doing? I'm doing great. How about you? I'm going to be real with you. I'm going to be real so people could, I can relate to people out there. I'm tired. I'm glad you said that. Yeah, I'm kind of feeling the same thing. You feeling the same thing too? Yeah, travel and sleep. I've got the inner, mid and wake up kind of thing that I'm doing throughout the night. So I'm working through that. I see my mind's a little different. I had a war with a duvet cover. Oh, yeah, the sound serious. Yeah, you were serious, Dr. Michael. And some people out there might be laughing, but let me tell you it's not. I'm laughing, actually. You were laughing. It took me an hour to figure out how to put a duvet over a comforter. I've never experienced anything like it in my life. You want to talk about this? Yeah, let's talk about it. I don't understand why whoever created the duvet doesn't make it simpler. Like, why don't they, if you don't mind me venting for a little bit, why don't they make it like a sandwich? So in my mind, the comforter, right? Oh, I see where you're going. You feel me? And then the duvet top should be the bread on top. And then the duvet bottom should be the bread on the bottom. And then you button it at the edges, right? I think you're on to something. I'm on to something. So whoever out there, make it. And then I want my cut. It's not quite how it works. It was a good idea. I thought it was a great idea, right? I came up with that while I was struggling for the hour. I wonder if it's already been done. And you and I, you and I just don't have any exposure to it. What do you think? I doubt it because if it was, you would go to what I'm going through last night. So yeah, yeah. All right. Good. Well, so with our duvet challenges and our in-mitten sleep issues, we're both going through it. Let's go through it. We're going to muster through all this and then get it done. Yeah. No, I'm, again, I don't say this slightly. I'm stoked to be here with you. I'm stoked to have a great time to do this with you. So it's always great. It's always great. And I love the questions. I'm curious to dive in and see what we have here. Okay. Let's do it. All right. The first one is really simple. This is from Dr. Tim. And he says, Dr. Mike, how do you fly on your purpose? It sounds simple. It's actually a pretty big question. And so first thing I hear that is like, how do you find it? And I'm not sure if he's asking me personally or like theoretically. And so I'll do it for me personally. And I want to ask, you know, you about yours and then maybe what we'll do is just talk about some of the theory that supports what purpose is. For me, I think it's important to share that growing up, I didn't know what I was doing. And there are people that at an early age seem to have clarity of the vision of their future, like what they see themselves doing and great clarity about the things that bring them joy naturally. And so if you have those two things, you're like, I feel alive when I play the guitar, and I want to be a professional musician, something like that. I didn't have that. And so I kind of just bummed along for a long time and followed the breadcrumbs of things that were interesting and off color and off access and zigging when my friends were zagging. And I just kind of liked that counter approach to life. And so I did not have a path. I did not have clarity of purpose, but I was committed to like in an uncommon way to get better at the things that I enjoy getting better at. So so that led me down this path of wanting to understand more the things that were holding me back and what was holding me back in my life was not my physical or technical skills in sport is, you know, from an early early age, it was a psychological skills. And I knew that I didn't I didn't know how to use my mind. So I just kept studying and trying to unlock and studying it formally and informally. And it eventually led me down this path. So I now know my purpose. I'm pretty clear about what it is. And it's to help other people live in the present moment more often. The reason that's so important to me is because the present moment is where wisdom is revealed. It's where high performance is expressed. It's where all things that are amazing and true and honest are experienced. So the present moment is the keyhole for the good life. And so I'm really clear about that in my life now. But I just this is a preamble and a bit of a narrative to say that it's a really big question. How do you find your purpose? It's a very big question. And what I help some people do is I help them pay attention to thin slicing at first. So the thin slicing is if you don't think about your purpose for your whole life, no problem. You know, it's kind of trying to wrestle down an elephant. Think about just getting your arms around the trunk first. What is your purpose as a fill in the role? So what is your purpose as a son? What is your purpose as a parent? What is your purpose as an athlete? What is your so fill in the role first? And if that feels a bit too big as well, you can thin slice it even further and say, well, what is my purpose for today? What is my purpose for this week? And so you can wrestle with the mentionality about purpose and one other part of this conversation, this is more theoretical is that purpose has three components. When we study the research around it. And so purpose is, um, it has to be bigger than you. So it's not just solving your needs, but it's something that you can't solve alone. So it's bigger than you. The second is that it has to have personal meaning to you. So nobody can give you purpose because that has to matter uniquely to you. And the third is there's a future orientation, meaning that it's something to solve, um, on a process. So it's not like you can completely solve it today. So there's a future orientation. It has to matter to you, variable number three and number two. And the first variable is that it's bigger than you. And so that's kind of a bit of a theory, a bit of my journey and, um, maybe a tactic to think about how to get closer to your purpose. Yeah. So how about you? Like, where are you on the journey? That was, that was a very interesting explanation. Cause for me, um, I always say interesting when it's like kind of boring, but you don't want to be disrespectful. No, no, no, no, no, the word interesting. I go, I'm like, what are you talking about? It's interesting. No, no, let me tell you why I said that. Yeah, I'm going to first explain to you my side. And then I'll tell you why I said yours was interesting. I always knew what my purpose was. I think for me, I, I ran from it out of embarrassment because what I wanted to do, not many people are successful in doing. And so because not many people are successful in doing it, I didn't want to go tell my peers or my family members. That's what I wanted to do. Cause I didn't want them to laugh at me, right? They clown me. So, so wouldn't you say purpose in doing it? Is this a, is this more of a goal or is it like purpose purpose? So, okay, perfect purpose. My uncle, my uncle used to come over for dinner all the time. And my mom would make him dinner at Jamaicans. And then I would put on a show. I would just perform for him. He'd sit in the couch and I perform all the time, crack jokes from being a little to a teenager. And he used to always be like, that boy, I'm telling that boy is funny. That boy is, he should be performing. I just, I knew that's what I was supposed to do. But as I got older and the real world started setting in, I started dealing with real world practicality. And I remember going to college and instead of being a theater major for undergrad, I was a telecommunications major because it got me a little close to television and film. But I wasn't about to tell people, hey, I want to be an actor because it wasn't, you know, so the only small percentage really make it happen. So I just didn't want to be shunned. I didn't want to be laughed at. So I ran from it for the longest, right? And I would hide it and I would go to, then I would perform in place, but I wouldn't tell my friends because I just didn't want to be shunned. I heard a pastor one time on, on my campus, on the church campus say, if you want to know what your purpose is, listen to what other people tell you, meaning like people will tell you that multiple people say, man, you're really good at, you know, for you, for example, I know people don't normally say what I'm about to say, but I'm just going to use you, for example, you're really good at teaching people how to be in the moment. And find that stillness. Yeah. And a kid that kid knows how to make people be in the moment. And I'm like, yeah, that never, that never happens. Yeah, right. And multiple people are telling you that, then Dr. Mike, you probably should be helping people. That's interesting. You know, when I hear you say that, I have actually an aversion to it. And there's probably like outsourcing the collective wisdom is the strategy. Right. And so pay attention to the narrative that keeps coming up. Yeah. If I were to outsource it, I would be now living the purpose that the, the quote unquote, they wanted for me. And this is that love I have for the counter culture, like that would never sit for me. Yeah. Even if that, even if the they was technically and accurately correct, yeah, I would, I still wouldn't be able to swallow that. They, um, recommendation. And so I don't know if that's unique to me or if you vibe with that in any way, like this, well, no, that's the same reason why I said what you said was interesting because the way you explained it was so practical and it made a lot of sense. And for the same reason why I hid what I wanted to do was for the same reason why I did it, right? I was hiding it from people because I didn't want their, their opinions, but in the same, you know, on the flip side of it, they were the ones say, hey, man, you should be doing this because you, you know what I mean? Yeah. And it was like, yeah, I do want to do that. But will you judge me? It's just a weird thing. And I talked about this last time, you know, and I used this analogy about the fairy godmother flying in and if she had her one and said, hey, Dr. Mike, um, and your little kid and you don't know that you're going to be Dr. Mike. You know, if you have, if I could wave this wand and grant your wish for what you want to do with your life, what would it be? But you have to be honest with me. I want you to tell me the truth. What do you really want to do? Give me the Cinderella version, right? The miracle version. Don't give me the, the practical. I don't know how many people would be honest because the world, the outside world, sometimes affects you. I'm going to pause the conversation here for just a few minutes to talk about our sponsors. Finding mastery is brought to you by Paleo Valley. 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That's levels.link slash finding mastery to unlock this special offer today. And with that, let's jump right back into our conversation. When I hear that, I actually think the honesty is the right standard. But to be honest, you have to be clear. And I do think that most people, like in the conversations I have with people, even even those that are like the single best in the world at the thing that they do literally better than anyone else on the planet, is that they still struggle with purpose. So this is different than like being exceptional at something. That doesn't, to me, ring the bell for what purpose is. It's not big enough. And it's like, what are you doing with that? And so Simon Sennick was popularized to know your why. And it's another way of thinking about purpose. Like, why do you work so hard? Why do you want to be a musician or an actor or a comedian? Like, what is the underneath big driver for you? I don't think it's, for me, I like where you're saying the honesty thing, because I wouldn't want people to judge critique, which is a whole other conversation. I think the first kind of note to hit is like, I need, I need to get quiet. And I need to listen. And I need to figure out whether it's writing or talking, meditating, whatever it might be to get clear about, what am I doing? And why is this so important with the limited amount of time I have? And I add one second note here to this conversation. I got a call on the way in today from a friend of mine. He's a psychiatrist and he says, I got some news. I've got six months to live. And so it was up to six years. The average for the diagnosis is three years. And I mean, what do you do with that information? If you were given that information, like, what would you do with that? So I do want to know what you would say. And also it's this, this isn't the right word because it's overused. That sobering moment for me for him to say, how have we been as friends? And the secondly is how have you been on your purpose? Thirdly, how have I been on my purpose? Not as friends, but purpose in life because we don't know when the shot clock runs out. We don't, it's not a 24 second shot clock, like we don't know. So how would you respond if you knew that you had six months to six years with an average of three years to go? If I'm being painfully honest, I'd break down. And then after I'd break down, I would try to live my life to its fullest. Because now I know that it's about to expire. Are you not doing that now? I think I'm doing it now, but that's a good damn question. Because I think I'm doing that now, right? But I'm also under the impression that if I got news like that, it would expedite how hard I'm going. It would expedite everything. So it's a function of intensity for you? Yes. Intensity in what direction? With family members. If I'm telling you I love you once a day, I'm going to tell you I love you 10 times. So it's intensity in relationship? Yes. If I'm touching grass in the flower, I'm walking on the ground barefoot, and I'm feeling the earth beneath me, I'm feeling it 10 times more. Intensity of presence? Yes. I'm taking the time and being more present. I'm spending more time alone, I'm meditating. I'm really an ex of mine used to always, during sundown, point to me, point at the mouth. I'm like, look at the sun, look at the sunsetting. And it's so beautiful right there. Can we just turn on Netflix? What the fuck? I've seen the sunset a million times. Oh my god. All right, I'm saying because I'm present. I'm all about 2023. I try to see no sunset. I want to look at my phone. But I'd always be like that. And one day I was thinking to myself, man, there may come a time soon, not God, not soon. But there may come a time when I'm like, I want to see the sunset. I want to appreciate it and take it in. It's hard thing to do unless you have a gun to the back of your head telling you that you don't have much time. I've tried it, Dr. Mike. I've tried it. I've tried to enjoy sunset. What does that have a sense? I love sunset. I mean, they are. Yeah, right? Seriously? Not that they're beautiful. But I mean, there's a phone. Dr. Mike is a phone. Phones exist. It's way more stimulating. Way more stimulating. I can see so many different things. But I think that just being present is the thing that I would focus on the most. It would intensify everything for me. I think what happened. So we understand that being present is a keyhole to what I said, you know, the good life. But also when you're present, you touch suffering. You touch the pain that comes with the acknowledgments of your flaws and the things that you haven't quite hydrated or watered properly. Or like, so there's like this double-edged sword with most things that are meaningful. And I think that it's so much easier for me for others to flip on a phone and flip on TV to even read interesting bit of research or a novel or whatever it might be, because it's a bit of a distraction to touching the suffering. Yes. And so, but, you know, as a multi-den, you know, martial artists, like there's only one way which is through. But can I ask you a question? Yeah, yeah. Why is that? Why do we, when you were saying that, made me think of a scene in a major pain? Do you remember major pain in the movie? This is the worst game for me. Okay, okay. So he's a guy that just bringing me back to locker. All the locker room jokes I've ever been in. It's like, remember that movie? And I'm like, I'm terrible at this. This is go fast. Damon Wains is the character. And he's the guy that's used to being in the war a lot, right? And he gets out of the war. And he doesn't know what to do with himself. Bring it back. So they bring it back, right? So he's in charge of a military academy full of kids. And there's this one really cute kid. And he doesn't know how to express emotion. Damon Wains doesn't. And the kid hugs him. And he's like, I love you, major pain. And he's like, when the kid hugs him, he's really uncomfortable, like, you know, he doesn't know how to react to that. In many ways, I'm like that in some instances. Why are we like that? Why do we not want to get close to the suffering or the emotion or why do we want to run away from it? Yeah, so let's kind of break it apart first. And then maybe give a treatise of what that is. So there's emotions, which are the physiological sensations, readying us to take motion, to fight, fight, flee, freeze, whatever that might be. So the emotions are observable. They're physical. You see the sweating of the palms. You see the heart rate changing. You see breathing changing. You can see the flushness or dilation of pupils. You can see emotions. OK, you can't see thoughts. They're completely invisible in private. And you can't see feelings. So feelings are the interpretation that you're having of the emotions that you're experiencing. So what you're talking about is why? Is because we are not practiced, at least in the United States and the Western world, we are not practiced in dealing with emotions, dealing with feelings. And so they're new. They're uncomfortable. And they're overwhelming. Their big emotions are big feelings. That this is like the interpretation of them and the experience of the feeling. If you're not practiced at anything, it's hard. And uniquely, humans have this ability to have feelings and emotions and make sense of the entire experience. But to be great at them, which is a unique quality to the human condition, you have to practice them. I grew up in a sandbox where I was told, suck it up. I was told, big boys don't cry. I was told, hey, like dad would say, I'm like, I'm eight years old. And he's going on a trip for work. And he says, OK, take care of the house now. So I was told, like, be a man and be hard. And no one ever said numb that stuff down. But they didn't want me to get bullied. They didn't want me to be a quote unquote sissy. They didn't want me to be, make fun of. And they were trying to do their very best. They, meaning my parents, extended family, the neighborhood. They're trying to do their very best to protect me from getting whipped around and being soft. However, now I'm playing a shell game. Now I'm only a version of myself. Now I'm just presenting a certain way rather than being about it. And so that ends up being a very fragile way to go through life. So I know I think you would recognize that sandbox. But I don't know for sure that that sandbox is not the way through. And that's why we're not good at it. And we don't value it in the right ways. When you were saying that I was thinking to myself, like, has he ever experienced that as a grown man? Because I experienced that as a child as well, right? I was reared like that. And I thought it would dissipate when I became a man and an adult. And then adults were in touch with their emotions and whatnot. But ha ha. It's not the case. You don't practice it. Yeah. You don't get good at it. I was an airline with Austin and some people. And we were talking about it. And I was like, $18 shakes. I of course didn't purchase them. So you just leave me. I was reading a water. Because that's what I do, right? $12 pickles. Yeah, $12 pickles. You know, I'm not with that. I was sitting outside. Maybe you feel bad enough sitting outside, but shout out to everyone. There's plenty of people that might not know what it is, because it's the beginnings of a chain. I don't think it's like a mature chain at this point. Oh, everyone. Okay. So everyone is a place in Los Angeles, California, where you can get a $20 shake. Some $20 ice cream. Just one ice cream. Flation is real. Yeah. Flation is real. $15 burritos. It's extremely expensive. And it's also a scene. You'll see celebrities and stars there and whatnot. And people want to go there. It's like a grocery store club. So you get dressed in your best fit and you go to Airwanda, you post up, and you might come out. It's better than a couple of G's on some groceries. You got to walk in the Airwanda to kind of see what some people are taking selfies. It is definitely. Yes. It's some out of a movie. If you were from the Midwest and you didn't know, you think it was a joke. And they love it. They love it. They aren't ridiculously priced. Oh, yeah. I drove by there on Sunday when it was like 97 degrees. I was just driving by and it was for lack of a better word, like a scene out there. And I was like, look at them. I drove to the gas station. But they're real. But they're real. They're real. They're real. They're real. But I'm there with Austin because he wanted to go. And I was with some people and we were talking about something. And I said something to the effect of, you know, I'm an empath. You know what I'm saying? I take on other people's feelings and everything. And him and the group started laughing at me. And when I was exactly, right? I'm on Austin. And when they started laughing, I immediately recognized it and reverted back to my alpha male thing. And I was thinking, like, you know, I'm saying, I'll beat you all ass though, because I fight. And I was like, why did I? When I sit down, I was like, gosh, no, Neil, why did I say that? But that's my inner thing to protect myself. So I want to look soft. But I really want to be soft. You feel what I'm saying? I want to be soft. Yeah. Listen. There's like one new study arts, right? Yeah. Yin Yang is a real thing. And in the side with all the light, there's a little darkness. And beside all the darkness, there's still a little light. And that balance of equal opposites, you can't be really strong and tough if you don't know the tender side of the human experience. So like, get on with it. Like, you know, we need heroes like you. We need the cool kids to show us the way. You know what I'm like. I appreciate this. It's like psychologists nerds are not going to carry the torch here in the right way. So like, but we do need strong, thoughtful men because that and we need strong, thoughtful females and anything that you might identify with to be able to those that are exceptional at skill. And it could be in a personal skill, but those are exceptional skill. When they add this dimension, that is what modern leaders look like. And so we are, we're at a deficit in understanding how to work well with emotions. We get pissed, we pull away, we attack, we don't raise our hands or say anything because we're flooded, we stay numbed in relationships, we drug and drink and sex ourselves that distract from the feelings because they're so big and overwhelming. And you know, like, I'm excited for this part of the human experience. This is like humanity next. We had the last couple of years, like, I don't want to get started on this narrative, I do want to get to more questions, but we had the pandemic and and and and and and the tide went out and it, it revealed who's been swimming naked. And I only mean that from a psychological standpoint, people that were playing the part and dressing a certain way, but underneath the water, there was nothing they didn't have. They didn't have anything they weren't wearing because they hadn't done that work because no one was looking, no one valued that. And so it's a very exciting time because it's not unprecedented that I've said this numerous times, like the dark ages were hard, 1700s were hard, you know, for some people in the United States. And I can go on and on and on. There are people right now that are living in the worst conditions that humans are have ever lived in right now globally. So, you know, there are hard times that people, it's such an ivory tower to see, to think about unprecedented times, but and I said it early, I swallowed that pill early too. And I'm doing my best, of course, correct here because there's a humanity next is going to force us to attend to the inner life. And that's what's happening right now, it's an exciting time in that respect. Definitely is. And now one final word from our sponsors, finding masteries brought to you by Carol, I love the Carol bike. And if you're not familiar with what it is, I hope that you're going to go check them out. 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And because you're listening to this podcast, you can receive 15% off in Apollo wearable. That's more than $50 off. Just head to ApolloNuro.com for slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout. This is an exclusive offer only available to finding mastery listeners. So be sure to use that code. Again, that's Apollo, APO, L-L-O, N-E-U-R-O, dot com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery for 15% off your purchase. And now back to the conversation. All right. Questions. Question number two from Sonya. Hi, Dr. Gerais. I listen to your podcast every morning when I wake up and some of my favorite episodes are your AMAs. Cool. I am a university student and a varsity swimmer doing an internship for the summer at an automotive engineering company. The company works people to the, the company works people to the ground. I've noticed a lot of engineering companies and engineers in general don't care, don't take care of themselves. It's frustrating when I want to prioritize my health, like going for a walk or eating healthy food. How does someone who loves engineering find a company where I can balance both my physical and mental health and find a rewarding job? Thank you so much. Did she give a name? I missed it. Sonya. Sonya, the first thing I would say is like nice job in how you're thinking about it because you're putting yourself in a position of power. Like how do I go about finding something as opposed to what's wrong with the industry or what's wrong with whatever. So she put herself in a position of power where she's basically saying, I'm going to choose and I want to choose well, how do I go about doing that? So I think it's part of the interview process is understanding culture and understanding purpose. So if you can understand their culture and you can understand their purpose and you fit with their culture. So culture is nothing more than a set of relationships that are living throughout the hallways. Like that's what culture is. Cultures the artifact of relationships. It's the way that people treat each other when it's easy and when it's hard, that's what culture is. So understand the culture like what are the relationships like here? And you might have to ask some people, you might have to, you know, like do a little homework and dig into that a little bit and then understand their purpose. What is the purpose of this company? What are they trying to do? What's their why? And then if your life purpose fits with their purpose, now one in one equals 11. And if you like the way that they do relationships, you got to fit. So one is interview for that. And I think that that's a very powerful position for a person to take. The second is if it's like going to pay and you need to take the job and like, okay, and they don't quite hit those two marks. Okay. Gotcha. You have to have the internal skills to be able to navigate the difficult external condition. So what I'm suggesting there is break them old a little bit, you know, go in, be about it, see if you can lead, see if you can take people with you, see if, and if they don't like it, can you take care of yourself in that environment? And if you can take care of yourself well, they're paying properly to you and it's a trade-off that you're willing to take for substandard relationships or substandard purpose. Okay. Well, then that's a job. And there's nothing wrong with that. I would like my children or my family members or you and me myself to be able to and Sonya included to be able to interview in a way that finds fit. And that's what we found at the Seattle Seahawks over the nine seasons I was there is that fit mattered more than talent. And if you can do that work in the interview process, I think it's a really important part of presenting well and, you know, aligning your efforts with somebody else's, the businesses. I agree with the second part you said about if you need to take the job, because I was thinking that too, I was like, what if you just need to take the job, you need the money? You know, how about you just don't even worry about, you know, them fitting with your purpose, take the job and you handle that outside of that. Is that possible to just, because that's, if I was Sonya, that's how I would approach it to, like, okay, they don't, you know, this is a place they don't allow me to do this. They're not really big on taking care of yourself, fitting this wise one, not, I'm going to get up at four in the morning or five in the morning and get that out the way. So when I get there, I might even worry about that anymore. My first job was at a gas station, like, you know, I had a, one of those red rags out of the back of my pocket, you know, can I check your oil, ma'am? You know, like, that wasn't serving my purpose, but I needed to make money, you know, and that was a way for me to do it. And so, yeah, so sometimes the money that you make is fueling your purpose. And it's a, it's a trade time for money. And so then you just want to get that trade right to fuel your purpose. If you can do the first thing I said, it's pretty radical. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's where, whether you're entry level or middle management, or you've been at something for a long time, when you're really good at something, you get to choose in a different kind of way. Yeah. You know, and this is the choice that I'm making, that I'm suggesting, when you're really good and you have a command of yourself and a sense, a sense of mastery of craft, like, and it's about being on that path wherever you are right now, choosing that path and put yourself in different conversations and different positions in life. So, Sonya, my strong encouragement here would be wherever you land, you know, is to make the commitment to not let your external environment dictate your internal experience. To lead, and leadership is not marked by just somebody who is the best or making the most or is the top of the food chain from an org chart position. Leadership happens because you know how to listen. You know how to have a vision and how to mobilize resources toward that vision. And so, like, get on with that. And the fact that you're asking that question, like, I think that you're already thinking in that direction. And, you know, fit is awesome. And understanding how you can align all of these for, you know, your best life is something that you're taking the power back. And so, those are the encouragements I have for you. All right. Eliza. Eliza says, as a head coach, I hope young athletes recognize making mistakes as a part of the learning process, yet I personally struggle with perfectionism. When I was an athlete myself, I was greeted this, but as a middle aged adult, I'm having a hard time practicing what I utilize as an athlete and what I preach to my athletes. So, any tips for adults to come to combat perfectionistic tendencies, long time fan, love the show, come back to Seattle for another live show, please. I didn't know you do live shows. Yeah. You didn't tell me about that. We did one. It was awesome. It was off in Seattle. Coach Carolyn, I had a live conversation. It was awesome. It was fun. So, okay. I think the place that I would start here is like my antenna pops on this, the, the, the joining of two words, combat perfectionism. And so, I don't think that's going to get you through it. And so, that's like being hard with something hard. And so, work with perfectionism or relieve myself from perfection, like there's another framing that I think would be more important. So, I'm going to pause that. That's the first thing that I hear. The second thing is that we can't give what we don't have. And we do give what we do have. So, if you're working from a perfectionist model, you are giving that anxiety and that unrealistic strain. And so, I talked to a world's best and a number of sport and industry and like they'll say something like, well, I'm trying to be perfect. I know it doesn't exist, but I'm, you know, that's what I'm straining and striving for. Like, that makes no sense. Like, does that make sense to you? Like I know it doesn't exist, but that's what I'm working on. I know it doesn't exist. So, does that make sense to you? It makes no sense to me whatsoever. So, how do you, I've got a couple more ideas, but how do you answer that when you hear this question? It's kind of ironic because from what I've gathered over my years of living, you find the magic in the flaws, right? So, if you find most of the magic in the flaws, why would you be looking for perfection? You know, that's the way my brain processes. Like, I want to make as many mistakes as possible because that's when I'll find some good things, some tidbits, but yeah. So, what I think happens for people that want perfectionism is that they're ringing a bell from an early set of traumas, and that early set of trauma is, as a kid, as an adolescent, whatever it might be. You made some mistakes, and that's what you did I did for the first like, you know, two years for sure. I was a, you and I were bumbling around the world. Physically, we didn't know how to stand yet. We could barely talk. Like, there's lots of learning. Lots of quote unquote, not perfect, you know, like mistakes being made to figure out how to work in the world. And then at some point you spilt the milk, and somebody says, and rolls their eyes and gets pissed off, and I'm using the milk for just about anything that doesn't go according to plan to that adult. And then so quickly we learn like, ooh, something's not right here. When I do those types of things, adults, people that are going to provide for me that are going to take care of me or our pissed off or angry or upset, and all of a sudden, it got scary. It got a little intense. So we start to learn that mistakes are not okay very early. And so then as adults, we start to work in a way where we say that I'm going for something that doesn't exist. I'm straining for something that doesn't exist, which is just problematic for many reasons, logical own. And so we've internalized this thing that what we're really trying to do is gain favor. We're trying to make sure that if we had the perfect game, if we had the perfect something that finally will be accepted by others. So you're linking perfectionism to trauma? I'm linking, it's a triangle, perfectionism, trauma, and acceptance. Those three. Yeah. I don't know. I think that I'm much more interested in establishing high standards and an appreciation for the path to be consistent with those standards, far less interested in perfectionism. And so I think most people hear that and they're like, oh, yeah, that's right. But then the question is like, how do we do it? Yeah. So I've never ever thought about like that linking it to trauma and acceptance. So why is it that we're stuck on these clichés saying, like shoot for the stars, the least you'll come down with a star dust. Why are we still using that as this barometer? No one's ever said that. I say, I say it all the time. That's interesting. I mean, I read that in the book and I've been saying it ever since. I heard like shoot for the stars, at least she'll land on the moon or something like that. I read that and what makes it great, great, but I did this Kim bro and ever since I read it, I was like, I'm gonna say this all the time. Amen. You should shoot for the stars. At least you come down with a star dust. That's so good. Okay. So, yeah, so I think that there's something completely wrong with the idea for me at least is like, I want to work in reality and I want to work in the truth and I want to work in an honest way, straining, striving, trusting, letting go to learn how to be just a little bit better, a little bit more true. And so, let's go back to my friend who, Mark, who's got the news to be, these might die in six months, is that the thing he said to me is that he goes, it puts in clear view that ambition is not what I think I thought it was. It is about relationships. And so, that straining for perfection is really about like approval. If it is, if the theory is right, it's about approval from others, which is not the relationships that I want to be in. Anyways, I love the unlock. I love the ability to feel what it feels like for something to go, oh, it makes sense now. Oh, that's how this, oh, that unlocking feeling, whether it's physical, emotional, psychological, whatever, that, I got it. That makes sense to me. I wonder what I'm going to do with that now. And that unlocking, to me, is like, that's the, that's the goal dust, you know, if not misses. Yeah, that's a goal dust to use the star dust metaphor. And then think about Victor Frankel, one of the great psychologists, psychiatrists of our time, went through the concentration camp, survived the concentration camps, came out, wrote about it, developed a theory around how to be well in life. And one of the things that he talks about is that we are far more capable than we think we are. And to help another human be their very best, we have to aim high because the trade winds of the world are pushing us south. So we need to aim almost unreasonably north. And he's not setting it up in a way that that unreasonableness is unattainable, like perfection. But aim high, go north because the trade winds of the world are pulling you south. So we have to work against those trade winds. We have to work against the forces that want us to be average and normal, if you will. And so that aspiration, like aim high, I think, is really a powerful idea. And I think that most people that I spend time with and maybe that you do as well, like recognize that unreasonableness of aiming high and recognize equally so that perfectionism is a full-game. Yeah. I mean, you know, going back to your friend who said that, you know, he only has six months. And when we have countless people that experience things like that, and then they're in the thick of it, right? And they tell us, they're experiencing it and they tell us, hey, guess what? I've discovered from this thing that's happening to me right now that it's about relationships. It's not about perfectionism, it's not about taking the term aim high literally and aim too high. You know, these are the things you need to focus on yet and still, we still do all these things, which leads one to believe that we're doomed to, I'm not being a pessimistic person because I'm not a pessimistic person, but if you're questioning the world and questioning people, it would lead one, if I'm an alien and I come and I'm doing a study on people on earth and I see these things, it would, my, I would deduce that humans are just doomed to repeat these cycles, even though they get these constant examples that they shouldn't be doing this. Why do we keep chasing our tails like that? Yeah. Great. I don't know. I think it's a great observation, great question and I'm on record saying that pain is the reason we change and uncomfortable, and this is how we grow. And it seems like a bit of a fatalist approach. That's my experience and there was some research to back that idea up and we, we are exceptionally skilled at avoiding pain. And so many people, not all. And so I think that when we feel emotional pain and we, at some point, like I think about family members that have struggled with addiction and addiction, like when you cloud that emotional pain with a substance, you don't really feel the pain. And so he had to hit his head as hard as a human can hit to make change. And so there's, there's ranges to it. I think pain is probably the unlock. And maybe one way to think about this idea is, are you designing your life for a great resume or are you designing your life for your eulogy? And that is not my framing. That's not my idea. I think it was David Brooks that designed that, if I, if I had that correct, we'll put it in the show notes if not, but that idea is a cool framing. Are you living to pack your resume where it's like, wow, this person did a lot or are you doing it for a eulogy, like how do you want people to, to feel about the impact you've made in their life? Yeah. Wow. Yeah, that's powerful. Yeah. Eulogy. Come on, Dr. Mike. Are you? Yeah. Yeah. Come on, man. Don't care about no resume. Well, we're on the concept of death, if you will. Like, I'm not clear on this, but like, what do you want people to say at your eulogy? I want people to say that he loved every one of, he made, man, he made me laugh. I want people to say, when on Neil came around, I wanted to stick around. Well, that's cool. When on Neil came around, I wanted to stick around. Damn, that was gangster. I got to give myself a couple of days. As I was saying, I was like, I'm talking like, what does that mean, man? I just created that. I just, you know, I just said that right now, but there's nothing else behind it. No, I just, yeah. I just started to go good. So my resume, no, I mean, I mean, you know, when I come around, I want you to be, I want to make you feel good. I want you to, I want joy to come into your life as soon as I step into the room, I want you to laugh. I want you to be like, oh, man, I'm glad you're here, man, don't ever leave, you know? I love that. He's a partner for Instagram, so it was one of the early folks at Instagram, who was on this podcast and he shared, when I asked him about his purpose, he said, I want to be the highlight of every person's day that, and I was like, what do you mean? Like, it almost sounded narcissistic. And he's like, no, I just want to be so vibrant and be so connected that when they think about their day, they're like, that was awesome. That's what they think about me that way, but because I was able to contribute in that way to their life, which is a really cool way to think about relationships. So say yours again one more time. I want when I come around for y'all to stick around. Yeah, that's good. I like your app. Get t-shirt. That's really good. That almost sounds like your purpose. Could that be close? Could be. No, I would say that is, Dr. Mike, I just made that discovery right here right now and I'm not just saying this for camera. Yeah. Yeah. I want to give of myself. I want to make people feel good. There's nothing better in this world. It's like a, it's going to be a terrible analogy. It's like a crack high. Oh, you know? Yeah. I've never been high on cracker. I'm like, I'm assuming us what do we feel like? Yeah. It just feels good. It just feels good to give of myself and to know that I brought, I put a smile on someone's face. There's a universality to that, which is that when you, so there's a best practice, when people are anxious to press or whatever the struggle might be, it's to volunteer, to give of yourself. Yeah. And it's one of the best practices for helping people through a tough time from emotional mental standpoint. No, it's funny because I feel like it's a full circle moment because it's coming back to purpose and you're asking me, you know, and I was saying what I want to do and what not. And acting is my vehicle. Acting is my vehicle to make people stick around. When I come around, come on, there we go. Listen to me, this is always fun. Thank you for the energy you bring and I, I look forward to these days. And so maybe that that's a little nod that your purpose is, you know, tuning well, at least here. And I look forward to these days. You bring this out of me. Yeah. I love it. I love it. I love it. If we could just go together like seven days a week, it would be great. Yeah. We could do that. Yeah. I appreciate it. I appreciate you too. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest, no cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback. If you're looking for even more insights, we have a newsletter we send out every Wednesday. Punch over to finding mastery.com slash newsletter to sign up. The show wouldn't be possible without our sponsors and we take our recommendations seriously. And the team is very thoughtful about making sure we love and endorse every product you hear on the show. 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