How To Master Your Money and Live a Rich Life | Ramit Sethi

with mastery when you truly understand the craftsmanship of whatever art you're in, whether it's fitness, food, fashion, whatever. You start to see trends and temporal issues as merely blips. Masters do not respond to everyday changes in the wind. Okay, welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Michael Gervais by Trade and Training a High Performance Psychologist, and I am stoked to sit down with Ramit Sate. Ramit is an American entrepreneur, best-selling author, and host of the new Netflix series, How to Get Rich. And he's here to talk about, yup, you guessed it, money. We all know that money is atop a commonly off limits for its ability to invoke anxiety or shame and divisive opinions about basic management, and Ramit wants to change that. His book, I Will Teach You to Be Rich is a New York Times bestseller and his new Netflix series, How to Get Rich, turns traditional money advice on its head. And he offers practical wisdom that can empower anyone to live what he calls a rich life, no matter their station or their bank account. And rich doesn't necessarily mean what you think it does. This conversation is really interesting. Ramit and I dive into the psychology of money and our complex relationship with it. We talk about money dials, his framework for thinking about money and finances, how visions can inspire us, and why he advocates so strongly for spending on luxuries you love while cutting costs and the things that you don't. Yup, you heard that right. And if you're enjoying this podcast and haven't already, just a quick reminder to hit the subscribe or follow button to drop us a review wherever you're listening. It is the easiest and zero cost way to support this show. So with that, let's find out how to spend only one hour a month on managing your finances with Ramit Sethi. Ramit, how are you? I'm doing great. I'm so stoked to have you on that. I think that right now, the idea of finances and money is so important and so central in people's life. And you've been at this industry for a long time, so I'm excited to sit down with you. Yeah, thank you. And it's hopefully a new way of looking at money because most of us, when we think about money, we kind of cross our arms and we start shrinking and we go, oh, God, this guy's going to come on here and tell me to keep a budget and cut back on cucumbers. And I never wanted to live my life like that. I don't want anyone to live their life shrinking from money. So, you know, let's have a little fun. Yeah. Okay, I love it. So if that is the case, we're not going to talk about that. What are we going to talk about? Like, what are the things that you love to talk about most often as just a general framing here? I love to talk about how to use money to live a rich life. It gets me excited, even if your rich life is different than mine. So I'll often ask people, what is your rich life? And they always have the same answer. This is about 85 to 90% of people give me the same answer. I want to do what I want when I want. I'm like, did everybody read the same book? Because everyone has the same and it's not a good answer, by the way. It's really generic. So I go, oh, okay, that's interesting. What do you want to do? And they kind of stare at me because most of us have never deeply thought about what our rich life is. If anything, we have these generic words like freedom and travel. And when I work with somebody and I really get to the bottom of it, what is their rich life? They'll tell me something like this. I want to take a three week trip to Italy. I want to be sitting on a rooftop drinking Italian wine, watching the sunset, overlooking the Colosseum. And at the very end, I'm always asking, who are you bringing with you? And they say, I want to bring my mom. I want to bring my grandma. I want to bring my son, daughter. Because at the highest level of personal finance, it's always about the who. So that is what I love to talk about is how to craft that, how to design that, and then how to use your money to actually get that. I love it. It's an awesome play on Rich. And then, let's double click there. What is your definition of a rich life? Well, a rich life can be traveling two months a year. It can be buying a beautiful... No, you're going to size step it now. I want to know yours. I'll tell you mine, but it's important. It's I'll tell you mine. Mine right now at this season of life is to be able to work with the people who I like and really want to be able to work with the people who I like. And it's to be able to travel at least two months a year. And it's to have fun on a day to day basis. So those are my three right now. Those change over time. If you have kids, if somebody gets sick, of course they change. But what I want to say is that a rich life can also be very, very vivid and specific. So it could be the travel. It could be a beautiful cashmere coat. It could be picking up your kids from school. And the beautiful part is the more you define it, the more your rich life looks bewildering to the rest of the world. Like if you actually double click on my, when I say travel two months a year, let me tell you a specific example. I spent more on traveling in one year than I've spent on cars in 20 years. And that includes gas, maintenance, the car itself, all of it. That's crazy. If you're listening to go, this guy's insane. But I happen to love hotels. I love traveling. And so I want to spend extravagantly on that stuff. And then I want to cut cost mercilessly on other stuff. Very cool. And I've heard you talk about your relationship with buying cars, which we'll get into in a minute. And so, okay, yeah, good. So I also love that you're putting a placeholder that this is something you love. It's not for everybody. And, you know, why do you think people have a hard time, you know, thinking about the process of making money as being a grind? And then maybe one day later it'll pay off. Like, where does that come from? And how do we get from underneath that idea? Well, we have a puritanical relationship with money in this country. It's actually an interesting dichotomy. On one hand, it's puritanical. You've got to work hard. If you're not working, you should feel guilty because you could be out there working. So there's that one side, which is save. Frugality is a virtue. And some of those lessons are good lessons, but they can be taken too far. On the other hand, we have a very consumerist culture. Let's pull up our friends on Instagram and they're in Bora Bora on Wednesday. Why aren't we doing that? Let's go buy a brand new car because we want to. And so you take these two opposing views and most of us are taught how to save, but we're never really taught how to meaningfully spend our money. And so what do we do? We end up just spending on whatever's in front of us. If our neighbors live in a certain type of house, we want to live in a certain type of house. If they go to a certain place for vacation, we want to do it. What gets me interested is hearing people meaningfully craft their rich life. So if they go, Hey, I don't really care about clothes. It's actually not important to me. But I love having this type of food two times a week. I go beautiful. In fact, let's turn that dial up. What if we could do more there? That gets me excited. And it's a different way to think about it because you have to actually be unapologetic about what you like and what you don't like. When I think when I hear, you know, the rich life, obviously is a sport and performance psychologist. I think about the psychology in that. Can I double click here and ask you like how you think about a psychology or psychologically rich life? Oh, this is a great question. Wow. This is fantastic. So money psychology is something that most people don't think about at all. And when we think about money, we think it's numbers on a spreadsheet. But actually the numbers themselves are quite simple. When I think about a psychologically rich life, I think about knowing what's important to you and what's not having a vision that can change over time. But it's a vision that is personal to you. And being competent and confident enough to move forward on that vision. So I'll give you a couple of examples. You'll hear phrases thrown around a lot about money. People will say things like, I'm not good with money. I like, okay, that's an interesting phrase. Do you say I'm not good with chopping an onion? Maybe, but you could learn that in a day. They'll say, I can't afford it. That's a phrase that usually we were taught by our parents. And when repeated 10,000 times, we really internalize it, even though the way we feel about money is highly uncorrelated with how much we've got in the bank. And we also say what you referred to earlier, which is, I'll save now, and I can do that stuff later. And in my opinion, that is a chronic mistake to think, oh, okay, it's like making friends. You can't say, I'm going to grind right now and then make friends when I'm 50. You cannot do one after the other. They have to be done at the same time. And that's the same way we've got to think about how to use our money as well as save it. I'm going to pause the conversation here for just a few minutes to talk about our sponsors. Finding Master is brought to you by House of Macadamia's. My life has been moving at full tilt recently and I'm sure the same is for you. And when life gets fast paced, I double down on nutrition, investing in high quality fuel for my mind and my body throughout the day is like a staple. And so I want to introduce you to House of Macadamia's. Nuts have been a go-to snack for me for a long time, but not all nuts are great to equal. 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And for a limited time, they're gifting our listeners a free bottle of cold press extra virgin macadamia oil with your order. Again, that's House of Macadamias.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for this exclusive offer. Finding mastery is brought to you by AG1. If you've been listening to the podcast for a while, you know how much I love AG1 by Athletic Greens. You might not know, however, is that AG1 has a 90 day money back guarantee. So you can try AG1 for the first 90 days. If it's not for you, just get your money back. You have really nothing to lose and so much to gain. I gave AG1 a try because quite simply, I just want to be great with my nutrition. And nine years later, I'm still using it just about every day. With one scoop of AG1, you're getting 75 high quality vitamins, minerals, whole food, source super foods, probiotics and adaptogens to help you start your day right. For me, I take it first thing in the morning on an empty stomach. I mix it with about eight ounces of water. I think it tastes great. But you can also mix it with smoothie or shake, whatever you prefer. One way to take control of your health today is through AG1. And they're going to give you a free one year supply of immune supporting vitamin D and five free travel packs with your first purchase. All you have to do is punch over to AthleticGreens.com slash finding mastery. Again, it's AthleticGreens.com slash finding mastery. To begin to take ownership over your health and pick up the ultimate daily nutritional insurance. And with that, let's jump right back into this conversation. Okay, so finish this thoughts them. Money is... Money is growth. Money is safety. Money is possibility. And money is... achievable. You can master it. Wow, that's a cool thought. You can master the process to make money. You can master the process of making it, spending it, and how you talk about it, think about it, and feel about it. Are you more interested in the relationship people have with money or the amount of money that they make relative to the amount of fun they have or the purpose in their life? What's the difference? Why are they separable? The relationship with money is like, how do I think about the money that I have, the way I'm going to make money, the way I'm going to save money, how I'm going to use my money. And then that last part is this the stitch here, which is the way that I use my money relative to purpose and meeting or relative to buying toys and experiences. It's definitely a Venn diagram that I'm in my head that I'm playing with here. But if we vectored those out for just a moment, are you more interested in helping people with the relationship with money or how they're going to use the money that they've acquired? I think they're inextricably tied. I'll give you... Let's break it down by Venn diagram portion. So their relationship with money, as I mentioned, is highly uncorrelated to how much they've got. That's one of the classic mistakes we make. We often believe if I make $5,000 more, I'll feel good. If I make $50,000 more, I'll feel safe. And actually, I talk to people all the time on my podcast. They come on... They're multi-millionaires. And they have millions in the bank and they still are worried. Some of them agonize over the grocery bill. And I could... My job is not to sit there and pull out a spreadsheet and say, look, you can afford this in perpetuity. That doesn't change anything. It's to dig into why they feel that way. So that's a relationship with money. Once they're able to change their relationship with money, which we all can, many of us grew up with a scarcity view, many of us grew up simply not knowing about money because our family didn't talk about it, then we can start to actually use it, deploy it, save it, pay off debt, all of those tactical things. Okay. So, but I want to stay with this thought is the relationship, I'm sorry, the conversations about money at the dinner table or the breakfast table. So if parents knew what you knew, how would they be talking about money with their kids? Let me tell you what they would probably never say and instead what they would do proactively. They would never say, we can't afford it. They would never say money doesn't grow on trees because what happens is kids hear that a thousand times and 30 years later, they end up talking to me on my podcast because they feel scarce about money and even if they have a lot of money. So what they would do instead would be to treat it like any other part of their family that's important and a priority. For example, if food is important, parents go, Hey, what should we eat today? Well, we ate chicken yesterday, so maybe we should try something different today. Oh, we don't eat too many snacks between meals because that's not healthy. We would do the same with money. We would say, can you come over here and help me? We have to pay our credit card bill today. That's what helps us keep a roof over our head and keeps us being able to eat. Can you help me push that button? That's for a very young child. As they get older, which number should we pay? Should we pay the minimum or should we pay the full amount? And then as they get much older, let's say as a teenager, we're going to take a family trip. It's going to be a five day trip. I would like you to plan two days of it and you've got this amount and you're responsible for creating an amazing experience. That is how parents would talk about money to empower their children. It has very little to do with, do you give them an allowance? Do it or don't? That's irrelevant. But having a healthy relationship where you talk about it openly, it's not a secret. It's not a source of stress, but rather money is a normal part of our family. We've got to talk about it and deal with it together. I remember my son. He was probably like, I don't know, eight or 10 years old and just kind of out of the blue. I'm sure it was a conversation at school and out of the blue, he's like, we're about my wife and I were driving. And he says, how much money is in our bank account? I was like, what? And it reflects it. I'm like, I just went into like, oh, that's a curious question. Like, why do you ask that? Because I don't know. I'm just kind of curious. And he didn't want to say like somebody else was saying that their family had billions or millions or whatever it was. And so our response was like, I wish I could have taken it back. I was like, oh, we don't need to talk about that. Because I didn't want him running to school and saying, dad's got $3,000 in his bank account or I'm joking. But I didn't want that to be a narrative that he was sharing. So if your kid pops that question or anyone in our community gets that question popped, like, how would you have answered that? Well, I love your first answer. Why did you ask that? That was brilliant. And so understanding that, I would say, what would it mean to you if it was $1,000? And what would it mean if it was $100,000? And then it's really broadening the conversation. There are different accounts, first of all. So just knowing how much somebody has in an account doesn't really tell you much. Somebody could have $1,000 here, but they might have $1,000,000 of debt. What's important with money is how much do you have, but also how do you use it? What do you think? How would you prefer to have it? And that broadens the conversation. Concretely, I'm imagining you would tell your 8-year-old or your 10-year-old how much money is in your account or accounts. Is that fair to think through with you as well though? Yeah, I wouldn't tell an exact number because it lacks context. Yeah, so you would just keep probing and questioning and giving context and expanding the thinking as opposed to just giving a concrete number. Yeah, but I would be prepared if they really push because you don't want to seem evasive about money. And so you know what? In one account, we have $800. It's more than enough to make sure that we have enough food and that we can comfortably live. And there might be other accounts too. Right? I don't want to seem evasive about money. I don't want to get stuck on the parent thing, but I think it's so important because I think about the lessons I learned about money from my parents, which was like, we didn't talk about it. And so then I learned something about it that way. And I explicitly, I remember my parents saying, we do not talk about money. Can I ask, where did you grow up? What area? Yeah, so early days I grew up on a farm in Virginia where it was like dirt roads, no streetlights. Wow. And then as a youngster, I think it was like fourth grade, moved to the city, the suburbs of San Francisco, and then suburbs of Los Angeles. So interesting. Yeah. The reason I ask is that I often find the Midwest, I find a lot of folks who I speak to who say, we never talked about money. And there's a lot of phrases that go along with, you know, B scene, not heard, et cetera. And it tells you a lot about when parents did not speak versus did speak. I'll give you an example. I'll give you an example. We have a podcast episode where we had a young woman, episode 65, and she had been hearing about money since she was five years old. Her parents had talked about IRAs and investments and compounds since she was five years old. She's been hearing it. Her boyfriend, her family, his family never talked about money. Well, they arrived at this point where she was making $200,000 per month, 200,000 per month, and he was making $2,000 per month. Okay. Well, a lot of issues arise, gender issues, socioeconomic issues, when you have difference in incomes like that and difference in expectations. But it was important to understand if someone has grown up never talking about money in their family. Can you really expect somebody to have started investing at the age of 15? No, I don't think so. I think we all start from different places. I didn't learn about deadlifting until I was in my late twenties. I wish I had, but we all have to understand where did we come from to understand where we are today. What tool would you help your children? I'm going to move on parenting in a minute here, but what tool do you have kids? No, my wife and I do not. So what tool would you give kids, if it was family members and or other, to start playing with money? I've seen a bunch of different apps come online where they've got a couple hundred bucks in their bank account, a couple hundred thousand, or a couple thousand. A couple hundred thousand would be great. Yeah, that'd be nice. But they can buy some stocks and some assets that way. They can see what they're spending. They've got some nonprofit that they can donate to. I've seen some of these apps that are great. Have you come across any that you like? I think a lot of the apps are fine. I think anything that gets a conversation started is good. But personally, I would suggest to parents, and I have many times, that the single best thing skill you can learn, to help your children with money, is for you yourselves to become highly competent at it. Because then, you can actually explain to your kids, we've decided not to get a new car right now, because our current car is still working, and we can spread our costs out over eight years instead of six years. That's a very complex concept. Most adults don't even understand that. But to be able to know that yourself and then to talk about it comfortably with your children, if they're old enough, that is way more effective than any app. Cool. Very cool. Some people listening are making $1,000 a week. Some people are making $1,000 a month. Does your advice change for those two types of people? Or does your philosophies do the same? Of course, some of the advice changes at the margins. For example, I have a conscious spending plan that has specific recommendations for how much money you should be spending on fixed costs, savings, investments, and guilt-free spending. Okay, let's say those four variables one more time. Fixed costs? I'll give you the numbers too. So, fixed costs, a good guideline would be 50 to 60% of take-home pay. So, let me tell you what's in fixed costs. That would be your rent or mortgage, your utilities, your groceries, auto payments, any debt, anything that is fixed every single month. Okay? 50 to 60% for fixed costs. Next up would be savings. Five to 10% of take-home is a good guideline. Savings would be money you don't need for one to five years, including an emergency fund. Three would be investments. Okay? Five to 10% of take-home. Although, I'd love to see more, because the more you invest now, the more you have later. And finally, my favorite one, guilt-free spending. 20 to 35% if you love wine, this is where you spend it. If you love eating out or travel or health and wellness, this is where it goes. And I like it especially because if you're out to dinner and you get a bottle of wine or whatever your thing is, you can get it guilt-free knowing that you've already covered your mortgage, your savings, your investments, all happening automatically. And this is one of the keys to actually feeling good about your money is setting up systems so it happens automatically. Very cool. Okay. So as we're heading into a potential recession, light recession, whatever it might be that's taking place across the United States right now. And I know there's global impacts as well, but here to the ground, we're thinking that in Q34 in the US that there is some sort of adjustment taking place. That being said, are you nervous and anxious about the future? Are you optimistic and bullish? And part two of that is how are you advising people to think about their money heading into a slight downturn? Well, this is the reason that I was so excited to talk to you because with mastery, when you truly understand the craftsmanship of whatever art you're in, whether it's fitness, food, fashion, whatever, you start to see trends and temporal issues as merely blips. Masters do not respond to everyday changes in the wind. They don't because they have a system that works and sure it may adapt over time, but you're not responding to the whims of what's going on. So with inflation, for example, which is one of the top questions I get right now, I'm almost confused why people are asking about inflation because if they have a system that automatically invests and automatically saves, they're already handling inflation. And the real reason that they're asking about it is they see it in the news, they get scared, they have no system that they are centered around. And so they're something reacting to the whims of whatever they hear about. That's a terrible way to go through life. And so mastery is deeply related to personal finance because it's not about what's going to happen in the market. Nobody knows. And honestly, you shouldn't try to predict. We know the research shows that you're going to fail over 80% of the time to predict where the market's going. Instead, let's master the psychology of money and our competence. And then let's stick to the system. Simple as that. Okay. No one does it alone. And I want to share a couple sponsors that are making this show possible. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Sakara. Sakara delivers science-backed, plant-rich nutrition programs and wellness essentials right to your door. The ready-to-eat meals are nutritionally designed to deliver results from weight management and ease bloating to boosted energy to clear skin. And they're delicious, which makes it much easier to commit yourself to this process. Everything they make is plant-based. They're salads are phenomenal. But you know what I really look forward to? Is their breakfasts. They're really good. They're really thoughtfully crafted. I want to encourage you to check them out. And so they taste great. I know that I'm getting some micro-macronutrients that I normally don't get in my diet. And that's why I look forward to Sakara. So, I'm going to share a couple of questions. I'm going to share a couple of questions. I'm going to share a couple of questions. I'm going to share a couple of questions. I'm going to share a couple of questions. I'm going to share a couple of questions. I'm going to share a couple of questions. I'm going to share a couple of questions. I'm going to share a couple of questions. I'm going to share a couple of questions. I'm going to share a couple of questions. I want to learn more about how you can train your mind. I want to encourage you to check out our online High Performance Mindset course, where we've pulled together the best practices to help you unlock your potential performance your best in any environment. In finding your best, we teach the same high performance principles and mindset skills and well-being practices. We use to train world-class athletes and executives. Over my career, this course has been one of the projects that I'm most excited to share. I hope you find it incredibly meaningful in your life. I'm really excited to announce that you can now access the course through our brand new website, FindingMastery.com. To sign up for the course, check out the new website. Because you're listening to this podcast, we want to give you $50 off the course today. Just head over to FindingMastery.com slash course and enter the code FindingMastery at checkout. Again, that's findingmastery.com slash course and enter the code FindingMastery to receive $50 off the FindingYourBest course. With that, let's jump right back into our conversation. You're saying, listen, it happens. If you're going to get thrown off of the whatever cart and knock sideways because of one blip, there's something else happening here. You're probably getting knocked around in life in a lot of ways. Exactly. I like that. Pause there because what I wanted to know is, and I don't know if you'll answer it concretely because it seems like a lot of the highly opinionated people in your field that they have something to say about whether it should be real estate or assets or stocks and bonds. Have debt, don't have debt. You have a general framing about, do you want to start with one of those like debt or do you want to start with real estate? Let's start with stocks because I love them. Let me give you a general framework for my philosophy on money. Let's start with investing. I'm a huge fan of low cost, long term investing. Those would be things like index funds. When my family asks me where they should invest, I tell them, pick a target date fund. A target date fund is just a fund that has a number in it which corresponds to the year you'll retire. If you're going to retire in 2050, you get a Vanguard 2050 or Fidelity 2050 or Schwab 2050 fund. That's it. One fund. All you got to do is put as much money as possible into it and don't even think about it ever again. It automatically rebalances over time. It's low fee. Boom. You will make a considerable amount of money. Especially if you start young. I mean, is that my grandfather, he's no longer with us, but when I was 21, he opened a Vanguard. He's like, Mike, how much money you got? Not very much. He goes, put it in. Wow. So he's been sitting there. Yes. And of course, I've been aggressive in it in my adult years, but I'm so happy to repeat that he was like, hey, we're getting going on this thing. He explained compound interest to me when I was like 18. I'm so happy right now. Yeah. It creates some space. Your grandfather was well ahead of his time. For him to share that knowledge with you, what an honor, what a privilege for you to have learned that. That's cool. I mean, I was like, I'm not going to be able to generate that. I'm like, I'm not going to be able to generate that knowledge. 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