Leading Through Chaos — Lessons From an Elite Special Ops Commander | Phil Kornachuk

We're going to point positive. If something goes sideways, we're going to point where you need to go, what you need to do. So focus on the actions you need to take. Don't focus on, well, what could go wrong if I do this or if I do that or that, that don't screw up mentality. Like that will absolutely be a cancer in your mind and inhibit your performance. Don't dwell on what could go wrong and focus on what must happen to do this excellent. And if you can get into that condition, you know, I think you'll excel under stress and pressure. Okay, welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Michael Gervais, by trading, trading a high-performance psychologist. And I am really excited to sit down with Phil Cornichuk for this week's conversation. Phil has forged an incredible path. He's a highly trained military expert with 22 years of service in the US Army Special Ops Command, during which he served with the second battalion Rangers. The Green Berets was deployed 12 times and received a silver star. That's the third highest award for valor in combat. We explore that incredible story throughout this conversation. Now, after retiring from the Army, he decided to dedicate his expertise to a new mission, helping people and businesses forge high-performance leadership skills. Indexing on self mastery, mindset training and discipline, Phil is following his passion for developing purpose-driven leaders and high-performing teams through his company, Stone Water Training. Phil and I share the belief that there are no shortcuts. And you'll hear all about how this high school dropout who grew up on a dairy farm in rural Ontario cultivated mental toughness, leadership acumen, and a life perspective that we can all benefit from. With that, let's get right into this week's conversation with Phil Cornichuk. Phil, you have had incredible life from high school dropout to Green Braid to owning your own company. Let's give a quick flyover of the chapters of your life. For folks that don't know your full history, where do we start? I was born at a very young age in Eastern Canada. And essentially all kind of fast forward. You set the tone already. Okay, here we go. True, it's a fact. I try to work in facts. But yeah, really kind of conservative, you know, Dad was a hardcore old school Baptist minister, mom stayed on the whole day. I think I'm going to find a way to use that at some point in my life. That's brilliant. I was born at a very young age. Okay, I was still stuck. You can only, I stole it off someone else before too. So it's all yours now. Very cool. But yeah, conservative upbringing. Yeah, conservative upbringing, rural Eastern Canada, Cal country. And I actually ended up, I was in a very small, very strict private school that I really didn't work for me. And so when I was 16, I just walked away from home and didn't go back. Okay, hold on, hold on. So there's a gap in there somewhere. Okay, so rural, conservative, and it didn't work for you. So you hung it up at the ripe age of 16. Yeah, well, because I had all the answers. I had everything figured out. Oh, I understand. Yeah, I know. Yeah, no, I think the reality was, you know, obviously it was something where, yeah, it just, it wasn't right for me. The world wasn't that binary black and white. I hadn't seen a lot, but I knew I wanted to see more. I wanted to experience more. I wanted to get out and see what was outside of this bubble. And so, you know, like I said, I left home shortly after my 16th birthday and kind of stumbled around making all kinds of bad decisions that you do in your that age. And my saving grace was on my 17th birthday. I actually enlisted in the Canadian Army. So I was the reserves, nothing sexy. But that was my first introduction to leaders that were kind of noble shit and held you to a standard. They're like, all right, sign on the dotted line. Okay, now you're here. And this is what you're going to do. And they didn't care if you wanted to, or you didn't want to, or you could or you couldn't. That was a standard and you were expected to meet it. And at first, you know, that that rankled me. And then I realized, like, oh, I, I can do this and be if I don't quit, I can actually do this fairly well. So I did that for, you know, roughly about two years. And I want to interrupt. What gave you the ability to say I can do this well? Like, how did you sort that out? Well, is that whole everything we did, you know, was measured, whether it was your physical performance, your tactical or technical proficiency. There was times, there was scores. And again, I saw if I could just master the fundamentals, master the basics, I could execute two or above standard. And because I didn't, other than being a very mediocre hockey player up until I was 16, I didn't really have a sports background. No real team orientation. I was a solid C student, like just mediocre to below mediocre all round. And, you know, that was the script I had kind of written for myself, but I didn't like it. So then I came in this totally new environment, where's the level playing field and you kind of had a chance to kind of reinvent yourself because everyone is new to it. It's like, well, let's see where this can go. There's a revisionist, you know, kind of nature to memory, but I'm trying to piece together like, if I could understand the vibe of you at that age, it might be really informative to understand how you've done so much in your life. The sad reality was probably much more this is I think I'd had a really lousy week at school. I thought it was kind of BS and I was done with it. I mean, straight up, it was like I said, it was a pretty unusual, unique, again, private, very strict, very religious institution that wasn't really academically oriented. And it wasn't cool. And I was like, I'm done. And I literally walked away. I wasn't upset at my parents or anything. I just knew I'm not waiting around. How did they didn't freak out? Yeah, I mean, they moderately freak out. I mean, their youngest kid just disappeared. And then, you know, called them a few days later and said, Hey, I'm going to move in with my brother and I'm going to figure this out. There's this Scottish restaurant, Mac Dunolds, it's hiring. I'm going to work there. And yeah, you can see why the army looks so appealing. Oh, my God. Okay. Check the boxes. So if you think about all that you've done from that origin story and we're going to get to all of it in the insights from your military experience and the company that you built. Were you running away from something at home or were you running towards something? I think it was probably more running towards something, but I didn't know what that was. I just knew I wanted different. You know, I just felt like my path. You know, I hadn't identified purpose or values or anything like that. I just knew it didn't feel right at the time. And there was nothing wrong with it. I don't mean to say, you know, my parents love me. And I think like humans worldwide, you make the best decisions you can with the information you have. You know, we're product of our genetics and experience. My parents were no different than that. But I just looking around it didn't. I was like, this isn't, this isn't really what I'm hungry for. Where'd you pick up that philosophy? People do the best they can with what they have, genetic environment, interplay. Yeah, I think I tell myself that every time I make a mistake. You know, I mean, it's truly, you know, fast forwarding, you know, I've been around the world. I've been in some pretty kind of conflict, written situations. And when you really distill it down to the bare bones, you know, the people on the other side, they're not necessarily. And I put an asterisk by it because I think their acts can be horrific. But a lot of times they think they're doing the right thing based on who they are and where they grew up in their worldview. And again, I'm not justifying the actions, you know, that are totally jacked up, that are out there. But I think there's very few people that go, hey, I'm going to, I'm going to f this up. I'm going to. Yeah, I don't know anyone that writes themselves as the villain in the story. Like, you know, like that. It's far more complicated than that. Yeah, right. So, okay. All right. So I'm getting the, I'm getting the beginnings here. And then let's so zoom really far forward. Silver Star Award with a V4 Valor. That was a different award to be for Valor. The silver, the silver star is a metal eight. They give out for actions under fire. It's award for Valor. It's the third highest as far as the military awards. For me, it was just right place at the right time with the right people. Everybody says that has, you know, the accolades. Well, it's because I know the people around me, if I talk trash and act like I was kind of a big deal, they'll be knocking at my door in a few hours when I get home. Yeah, right. Okay. So, so let's just talk about that though. Circumstantially what, what goes in to an award like that? That's, that's a great question. Because I think it's, you know, I've been around, you know, two people I've worked here have been awarded the Medal of Honor. So Pat Payne and Leroy Petrie, both surviving out it. And explain metal of honor for us. So that's the highest award you can get in any of the US military services for, you know, courage under fire. Clearly, you know, and it's more often than not posthumous, meaning people usually don't survive who get the Medal of Honor. You know, as you kind of look at the different awards, I mean, a lot of it comes down to what, what actually happens. You know, to your point, a lot of people are like, well, what were they supposed to do? That was my job. I'm, I'm a soldier. I'm a Marine. I'm a sailor. I mean, that situation. I did. Yeah. Any, any of my teammates would have done it. Exactly. So I, you know, to me, you know, I think there, there is a degree of right place, right time, little bit of luck mixed in and, and there is some, hey, step up and do something that's, that's usually a little beyond your assigned position. You know, it's ironic. I think back to, you know, where I got awarded the Silver Star and it was something where I look back and I'm like, what, what did you expect us to do? Like, just get overrun. Like, that seemed like a terrible option. So of course we, you know, we fought our tail off and got out of there. I'm going to pause the conversation here for just a few minutes to talk about our sponsors. Finding Master is brought to you by Aqua True. 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And I also at the same time I'm using it, I stack meditation. So I'm doing some breathing work or some meditation at the same time that I'm supporting my mitochondria in cell production. So if this sounds good to you, I want to encourage you to go check out JUVE today. And while you're there, JUVE is offering all of our listeners an exclusive discount on their first order. So just go to JUVE.com slash Finding Mastery and use the code Finding Mastery at checkout. So how do you spell it? J-O-O-V-V dot com slash Finding Mastery. JUVE.com slash Finding Mastery. And there are some exclusions that do apply. And now back to the conversation. Can you talk about some of the story surrounding it? Sure. That one I can actually talk about fairly openly. So as a Special Forces team leader, we're in Northwest Afghanistan. As a greenberry. As a greenberry, yeah. And so there had been a Marine Special Operations unit there at this very small outpost, kind of like the Alamo, who had been fighting pretty hard for a while and taking casualties. And they actually lost their team start, got him Rob Gilbert, was killed. And I was further south of them in a different part of the country, little more laid back area as far as combat zones go. So stuff was happening, but we weren't, you know, it wasn't gunfights every day type thing. And I had 750 really well trained, really well motivated Afghan commandos who were like, hey, we're trained to go where there are problems. And I'm like, well, I know where there's a problem. And we also had an aviation battalion, people who flew helicopters who were flying up to the same place getting shot up. So they had a vested interest in us going up there and helping secure the area. So one thing led to another, worked with the Marine team up there, worked with the helicopter pilots. And managed to finagle getting about half my team and about 100 of these Afghan commandos up there to help the Marines out. They were doing an awesome job, but there was no respite form and they had taken casualties. And their Afghan counterparts weren't as highly selected and well trained, well equipped as the ones I had. So, yeah, we got up there and we teamed up with them. So is this composite of, I think there's four Marine special operators and five green brazes and about 45 Afghans. And, you know, this, this particular mission was, you know, they were telling us stuff that it seemed a little far fast. We're like, I probably seems like that. But is that reality? They're like, hey, the Taliban and that's who they're fighting in that area. They're like, the Taliban have cleared out all the villagers for about five miles around the base. So this is all bad guy country and they got trenches and they got wire and they outnumber us and they do this and that. And I'm like, it probably seems like that because you're under pressure every day. But reality is probably not quite so defined. Like you're describing a conventional conflict in what was a counter uncertainty. So you're, you're, they're giving you a narrative and you're inserting that it's clouded by the pressure that they're experiencing, not thinking that it's as dire or as heavy. Yeah, I mean, they just lost their second in command under constant pressure. So, how do you convey that back to, is that a private thought that you have? It was probably an assumption at the time it probably wasn't quite as strong. Like part of me goes, like, this, this is a pretty unique situation. If it's true, you know, let's, let's verify it. And they're like, yeah, sure, we can go out at night and we can, we can control through the lines and we can show you the empty village. And then from there, we can come up with a plan to clear it. I'm like, this sounds awesome. And again, it was 45 of, there was, there's about five of these marine special operators that actually went out of the wire with my team and about five of my, my green bays. And I think we had one or two other American attachments like a Navy corpsman. Okay. So it was like 12 dogs. Yeah. And then we had about, I don't know, between 30 and 40. Afghan commandos with us. With you. Going out on this beginnings. Yeah. It's nighttime reconnaissance. Okay. So we're going out to basically confirm or deny. You know, is the enemy really here? Is it really as bad as they say or the big thing was, they are other civilians in the area because if there's no civilians in the area versus if there is it drives different types of rights. Yeah. Like the US makes very deliberate efforts to minimize it. And so this was part of it. Get more info before you act. Well, we went out and sure enough, it was just like they said, I mean, it was eerie ghost town. And I had some people up on the hills kind of watching us like our guys to little overwatch kind of sniper teams. And then I had two groups that were going through this village just checking for any signs of life other than Taliban. And is that visual contact or using other technologies to do that? I mean, we were at this point, it was mostly just visual contact going through, you know, you're looking in windows. I mean, this was 2010 timeframe and we weren't like a, you know, we didn't have a ton of assets and drones and everything supporting us. I mean, I think we might have one or two things over us. But then the clouds rolled in. So even that was moot. And that factors into the story later. So we, we confirm we're like, holy cow, this is like no kidding. Like I feel like I'm a Hollywood set of what Afghanistan should look like, but there's no actors here. And you know, the hairs kind of standing up on the back of your neck like this is unusual. And we had made a plan. What do you do with that? When your body speaks to you that way. And you're getting all the signals that like there's something different here. I think it's almost like that. You know, Malcolm Gladwell when he talks about it in blank like that fin slicing like you're picking up cues subconsciously that you're not processing. You know, you're not, you're not waiting. Yeah, the front part of your brain's really not tracking what's. Yeah, but so it wasn't loud enough. But you're just like something's something's off like you definitely felt that and I'm like, hey, that's what I want to know what you think with. And it's like, I think, I think we've confirmed this is not normal. I'm like, let's let's get our teams together and get out of here. So we, I brought together my two mobile elements and I told one of my groups that were up on that the hills watching us to come in and the other one. I'm like, you guys just stay there in case things go sideways. And, you know, looking on the map, we decided beforehand. We're like, Hey, look, these these roads intersect here and there's this creek that goes through it with the bridge. Like this is going to be a really good natural link up spot. There's a compound right there. Let's meet there. That's the idea ever. So I'm coming at it to one side with my group of maybe 10. And then from the other side. And are you leading the green brazes and the Marines? I'm the ground force commander. Me and I'm the person on the ground with the radio sort of saying, okay, let's. You know, I'm not that the number one man. I'm not in the very front. You know, I'm kind of in the, in the mix with my, I'm basically stumbling around with night vision with both my hands on radios like tripping over logs and stuff, but theoretically in charge. That was for your teammates. I understand exactly. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Everyone heard that. Yeah. They're like, okay, that's accurate. Yeah, that's accurate. But yeah, make the decision. Hey, guys, let's, let's meet up and let's get out of here. Like, this is a little weird. Okay, got it. And so, you know, I'm been honest to me that the area identified for us to link up was also the regional headquarters for the Taliban in the area. And they were having a meeting because they were trying to figure out why there were extra markets at this base. Like you can't make this up. So just imagine like a strip mall size wall is compound full of people who really don't like you. Oh my God. So we're coming at it from one side. And one of my guys is leading the team from another side. And we both are Afghan counterparts. And it's dark and it's eerie. And the Marines had told us this and we're like, you guys are nuts. But they said, Hey, when the Taliban think we're in the area, they start yelling like coyotes. I'm like, what? Like, come on. You guys read too many Stephen King novels. And sure enough, we start hearing these people making like these weird calls in the middle of the night. It's like one in the morning. And this Afghan village is totally abandoned. I'm like, that's just weird. And I didn't like it. Like, you're just like, okay, this is getting stranger. And you're not scared, but you're definitely on high alert. I mean, you know, part of us. Like, that's what we were there for. Right? Is confirmed or denied. And I felt like we had kind of confirmed like this is this is a real situation. Okay. Another interruption to this is magic because there's so much rich experience that you're bringing to the story. I was on high alert, but not scared. And you do you feel like you understand the space between those really well? Most people, it's like smashed together and it's hard to differentiate. And I'm wondering how much space you have between those two experiences. So I think it's probably not a whole lot different from flow state and other fields of expertise. Right? And it's where you are very prepared for the situation. You have all the tools mentally, physically, like you're ready for it, but it's pushing your limits and you're like, Hey, I'm on the edge. You know, it's that fine line. I just did a talk on the fine line between hard and stupid. Like, I'm on the edge. I need to be on my A game. I've got this, but you got to be smart. So just, you know, it's literally a flow state. And I've had it in a few other times in combat where it truly has felt like, man, like you feel like time slows and you just have a clarity and awareness that normally isn't there. The downside is that wasn't always automatically replicable. I got to a point where I thought that would just come. And I realized you can be overconfident or underprepared and they go, I'm not in the flow state. I'm in a confused state and that, you know, those are other stories down the road. We don't have to get to those. I don't look as well. But for this one. So as we're coming together, you know, I'm about 50 yards in the dark from this compound. And to me, it's just a mud wall. That's all I'm looking at as we're approaching. And then you just hear shots start rattling off, pop, pop, pop, pop. And my guy comes across the radio and he goes, Hey, troops in contact. And then it just escalates from there shots, explosions. And what had happened was this element were coming up to the compound. They saw three or four people with guns outside the compound. They thought it was our Afghan commandos. And so they're walking up. It's, you know, it's night vision and unlike Hollywood, you don't see that clearly. There's not a lot of ambient light and it was cloudy and it was low aluminum. Doesn't have like a red dot on it or no. No, no, it's, you know, child of the eighties. I grew up watching the Navy seal movie where the people glow in the dark and the, you know, Charlie Sheen's talking. You know, it's not at all like that. It's a blurry little man shaped blob. And you're like, Oh, is that that will feel said he'd be there? So that's probably his Afghan commandos and his Afghans thought like they're like, Oh, great, there they are. So as they're approaching the Taliban sinking the same thing because they're holding a meeting. So all these people are coming in. So they start waving at the green braids and the Afghan commandos are polite. They wave back and then they're like, wait a second. Those guys don't have helmets. They have different guns. And then I'll hell breaks loose. Yeah. I'm on the other side of the wall hearing all this going, well, I wasn't part of the plan. And so we're like a bunch of grade school kids. We come up on the wall. The enemy doesn't know where they're. They all spill out in this courtyard and prepare to overrun this element led by Mike. And we're peeking over the wall, seeing this gathering of 10 15 enemy. And they don't know where we're at. So of course, we do what we're supposed to do when we protect our mates on the other side. And we realize there's actually about 30 people inside this compound and they're really upset that we disturb their meeting. So that goes on for several hours. And I think within the first hour. We had seven casualties on our side. One of the Afghans was killed. My medic got shot. Through the foot and was refusing to get off the battlefield. Our air sport couldn't come in and support us because they couldn't see through the clouds. And our meta vac kilos did two runs trying to get our guys out. And then on the second one. They're like, we're low on fuel like we can't do any more runs. So now we were about three miles deep in enemy country surrounded by mountains fighting still to clear this compound. We didn't know if there was tunnels and bunkers underneath it. So it felt like a zombie apocalypse because you would have a threat. You would neutralize it. And then about a minute later, someone else would pop up in the same spot. They're invincible. This is amazing. What kind of technology do they have? But we fight through and as we're securing the compound. Enemy from surrounding precincts. I don't know what you'd call it. Districts. Start pouring into the valleys. And now we're fighting to secure this strip mall size compound with about an equal number of enemy as we are with no air sport and no meta vac. And now we start to have people coming outside the compound surrounding us. So taking your back. Yeah, exactly. And so now we're fighting inside and outside. And my people who had left on the high ground to cover for us start getting shot up. And they start taking casualties. We had one guy who he was in like a little dug himself a little position. And he was pinned down and he had a grenade launcher under his rifle and that got shot off. And then the antenna to his radio got shot off and then he had a pack of cigarettes for whatever reason on the lip, which is a terrible habit by the way. And totally deteriorate cardiovascular fitness. Anyone listening. But he had it on the lip of this trench and then that got shot up. So he's just like sitting there with no radio half a weapon just kind of being like, yeah, did not see this happening today. And his name was Pat Dolph and he ended up passing away on a follow on deployment. But it was just that kind of intensity. And we called to what's called a quick reaction force. So the other half of the Marine group and some of their Afghan partners were going to come out and bail us out. We found the enemy in a big way. You were all around us. You were right. We're going to try to head back and be cool if you could help us out because they're pretty upset at us. And we had burned their motorcycles and we had basically wrecked their little Taliban party. I think that one was about a 10 hour gunfight. It wasn't the longest I was in, but it's probably the longest hardest one. I had been part of 10 hours. Yeah, we went from about one in the morning to my masterite 11 in the morning. Actually maybe it was a little longer than that. I think we were back. The guys who were still okay were back by about noon. And yeah, I mean, you know, especially as a reconnaissance bishop. So we didn't bring a pack. And I mean, theoretically, you're only shooting when you have something to shoot at, which, you know, if you're bringing 300 rounds, if you use all that up, that's an awful lot. Is that what you normally is something in that range? Yeah, I mean, I'd standard will be like 210 rounds. And yeah, you know, it's interesting on some missions. People bring less on some bring more. And it's a lot on what your comfort level is. I had you air, which I air right in the middle as I got older and my knees got worse. I liked Carrie Lassamo and her line other people to do more work better. Better shot. Well, that's the ironic thing is, you know, as the ground force commander, my job isn't to be a shooter. I'm to kind of manage the chaos and request. Resources and be thinking strategically. I mean, it's, you know, just think of leadership position. If you're in the mix, doing it. If you're working in the business and who's working on the business and seeing that elevated more strategic approach and where should we be going? And in this particular fight, because half our element got chewed up pretty quickly. You know, I was engaging and there was there's a long story long, but there's one weapon system that I'd use in the Canadian Army that we had. And I was one of the few guys that used it before. So next, you know, I'm slinging around this Carl Goostaf rocket launcher that, you know, I gave a class under fire to the Marines so they could do that. So I could go back to do my radio work after firing a few shots, which they loved it because it was, I mean, it was loud. Got a lot of attention. We used it. So. Okay. Quick pause here to share some of the sponsors of this conversation. Finding Master is brought to you by seed on this podcast. You may have heard me talk about habit stacking. That's basically the idea that you can build a new habit by linking to an existing habit. Literally, you're stacking the two behaviors together and not only is it efficient, but it's a great way to usher in a new habit that you're wanting to build. So a habit that I've been practicing lately is making sure that I'm checking off as many nutritional boxes as I can right in the morning. And so right now that includes seeds, D.S. O. One daily symbiotic. 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If you haven't already, I want to highly encourage you to go check them out. To see the full list of nutritional supplements that I use and to get 20% off your purchases, just head to thornthorne.com slash you. That's the letter U slash finding mastery. Again, that's thornthorne.com slash you slash finding mastery. And with that, let's jump right back into our conversation. On the leadership bit, you've thought deeply about leadership. You've been in a leadership position under incredible to rest and the most consequential of environments. Can we open that up a little bit before we finish the story? How do you think about leadership? What are some of the guiding principles that have been really important for you? For me, it's very much purpose driven, kind of like the Simon Sinek. What's your why? I think it's very fundamental. And truly, it starts with you to start with your core. Why are you on this side of the grass? So if you can distill it down to purpose, and then what are the chosen values I want to govern my decision making in my actions? And when you have that purpose and you have those values as a lens and a filter to make the choices, I think you can be a truly effective leader. For the backup, I think it begins with self-awareness. Who am I really? Who am I? Who do I want to be? What's the path to get there? I do a lot of leadership development, both in individuals and teams. And I tell them, I go, it's not some magical principle that shows up in your professional life at work. It's with yourself. Can you do the hard things when no one's looking? Can you lead yourself to be the individual you feel like you're truly called to be, or do you take the easy path? And it's a continual fight. I go, if you can master yourself, and if you're leading other organizations, especially when you're in a formal position, it becomes a whole lot easier. If you can communicate a vision and a purpose to them that they buy into and can identify with. Beautiful. I mean, really clear. What do you do to help people understand who they are, their values, and their purpose? How do you walk them through that? Because the idea is as simple as you just said, I'm nodding my head going, yep, that's awesome. Good science to back it up. It's been my personal experience as well, working with world's best across multiple disciplines that those three, when they're in place, it's exponentially more powerful. So how do you help people know who they are? And we call it like developing your personal philosophy? Sure. It's funny to use that. I was actually talking to someone yesterday about developing your leadership philosophy, which should be closely aligned with your personal philosophy. They should not be, if there's divergence there, then you've got to rely on one of them. You'll get exposed because you can't do that cognitive stuff. It's not sustainable. Yeah, it's not authentic. That internal alignment creates this great freedom to be yourself anywhere you go. And if you're one way at home or one way as a leader and another way, fill in the blanks wherever you are, that's a disaster. That's exhausting. Yes. So what do you do to help people know who they are, their personal or leadership philosophy? So, you know, and you're probably far more familiar with the kind of quantitative assessments and things that can help maybe illuminate to folks. I think they fall apart. Yeah, I think assessments are cool. It's a data point. Yeah, it's a conversation starter, as for me, much more than as a diagnostic tool. Absolutely. It's yeah. And I'll do that occasionally with folks to be like, what do you think? Is it interesting? Do you agree? Disagreeed? It's like, is there a tool that you have found to be useful? I mean, I like just, I'm kind of on this Daniel Goldman, Richard Boyatz's and McKinney Kick right now. So the EQI 2.0 emotional intelligence. We're Daniel on. He was awesome. I am wildly jealous and thanks. Now I'm all the more God imposter syndrome. Can I get into that? Yeah. No, but so I'm a fan of EQI 2.0. I mean, to me, it's a conversation starter. It's not definitive when I really work with folks. And this is what I found to be truly effective is just asking me like, it's as simple as tell me about yourself. What do you like? What do you dislike? What do you think you're good at? Okay, now let's start. And I had a leader. He told me this. Nick Nicholson is a retired forester now, but we are passing her twine for like 20 something years. And he is like total authentic, consistent leader. And is forestar the highest? It is. So it's a forester. I think Omar Bradley is a five star, but you're gonna have like a world war or something going on to get that kind of rank. But yeah, within, you know, recent, you know, since like the 50s or whatever, foresters about as high as you're gonna get. And then you realize you still work for someone and you're like, dang it. I gotta keep churning. Yeah. Everyone's got a boss. But he told me when I was a lieutenant, he goes, hey, we are passing your talent intersects. Like, that's where you need to be. That's where you're meant to be. Because there's a lot of things I'm good at that I'm not particularly excited about. And there's a lot of things I'm excited about that I'm not particularly good at. But then there's this, you know, if it's a Venn diagram, there's that overlap and that sweet spot going, okay, I think there's something here. And I don't think purpose is, you know, hey guys, take 10 minutes and define your purpose to me. It's almost like you're digging for a vein of gold, right? And like you find a little piece and you're like, oh, this is, there's something here. Let me dig a bit more, explore a bit more. And I think you need to take action to develop it and then reassess like, is this, am I still hitting? Am I in line with it? I love this idea because it's a work in progress and we do this oftentimes with companies as well as like, we'll set aside time in what are the trainings that we're doing for them to identify their purpose, identify their personal philosophy, phone the blanks. And the joke is like, you know, we're gonna, we've got a tattoo artist that's coming in, you know, anyone who wants to get a neck tattoo, you know, of your philosophy, no problems, but it can't be done in 10 minutes, like, or 30 minutes even. But that idea of a vein of gold. And then what we found is when people say it out loud, that it becomes a forcing function for truth or not. Once you put words to it, once you articulate it, you have a start point, your journeys begun. Oh, that's cool. That's your start point. That's it. To me, it's like, you know, I work very much in kind of an experiential realm with leaders now where we'll put them through things. And you take them into the country into the back of the country in the mountains on the water. I mean, that's what I was just doing yesterday out, you know, at a pizmo and the Pacific on kayak, like looking for Bruce, the great white shark that was out there. And then we were up in the mountains doing some work and it was all about we were trying to set conditions for how could this help people see different perspectives themselves. But it's, it's again, your company, stone water training. There you go. Cool. And it's, it's like, it's the same with values, right? Like, and I have, you know, a different pattern for helping people identify those, but it's that concept of start with something and then start working and refining and reviewing. When I look at my personal purpose, it kind of breaks down into three pillars. And I probably haven't named it until about, you know, five years ago. And I, you know, played around with Sajit and it'll probably change a little down the road as I learn more about myself and, you know, where my strengths and ability to impact things really are. Yeah, it's malleable. That's cool. So what are the three pillars that you're working from? Yeah. The number one for me is connecting inspire, meaning, building meaningful relationships with people and helping them kind of identify and elevate who they truly are. It's not a numbers game. It's not about finance or position. I mean, that oftentimes does follow when people are in the right place doing the right things and it's authentic. But I don't think that's a metric for success. And so that's kind of pillar number one is connect and inspire. Pillar number two is, is do good. And I know that's good as a very subjective and can actually be kind of a dangerous word. But I look at, you know, my 22 years in the military. I always made, you know, we talked about this earlier, I made the best decision I could with the information I had and I wanted the net good. Sometimes you're confronted with the lemons where there's no good. And it, you know, it's that what is that. It's like psychological. Yeah, the trouble. You can flip a switch. You can kill these five people. You know, or 50 people. You don't know, like, what's the right answer? You know, or it's, I probably totally butchered it. No, you got the spirit of it. Yeah, we're in the vein of it. But the whole concept is sometimes there's just no good answer. And, you know, when I wrapped up my time and you back off and look at what you did strategically, you go, huh, is the world net better or net worse for what I did. And I don't unequivocally always go, oh, it's definitely is better for what I go tactically on the ground. I did the best I could with what I had. I don't know if it was always the best. Like, you get older and you sort of look back and you just, what if, and that could be whatever job I had. So I told myself moving forward, I want to be in a realm where where I can, I can make a positive concrete difference with individuals, organizations, my family, myself, whatever it is, where there's just not a lot of gray area. And you're pushing and challenging people, but you're doing it to elevate them. And so I was like, if I can go fall back on that as a touchstone. And that's what I'm pursuing that I'm feeling pretty good. And my last is push my limits. I mean, it's, you know, where's my boundary? Where's my edge physically, mentally, spiritually, emotionally. Let me get up to the edge, get comfortable on the edge and then see if the edge moves a bit more and keep kind of nudging it. And it does. And it does. It's so awesome. Like, I love it. And I love sharing that with people. Yeah, that I see you light up when you say it. It's, it's the thing that drove me more than anything is that feeling of the unlock that only happens in that messy edge. Like the, even if it isn't actually dangerous, but it feels dangerous, that messy edge where you're not all buttoned up and it's, by definition, competencies are being challenged. Like really challenged. The unlocks that happen there are, I'm so rich. Oh, yeah, between comfortable and impossible. Like I love that. That's sweet spot. It's been comfortable and impossible. Yeah. Okay. So when you, let's do the emotional bit for just a moment, your emotional edges. How do you work in those, like, what are some of the triggers that get you into that emotional and comfortable zone that we're talking about? And then how do you work when you're in that state? Yeah. So for me, it's, it's interesting, especially if you look at, you know, my professional past, you know, in the military, but, you know, I don't enjoy interpersonal conflict. I don't like arguing. I don't like calling people in the spot. I don't, don't like being direct. Consequently, I know this about myself. So I look for opportunities in a constructive professional connected, inspired type way to address things that should be addressed. And it, some of the examples are absolutely ridiculous, but I do it purely because it's uncomfortable, but not impossible. So, for example, my son and I, Montana is kind of home for me. We live in Oregon now, but it's a whole different story. That's just what 43 year old mothers of eight do. Who already have an amazing professional career. 43 year old mother going to med school of eight children. Yeah. And she does Iron Man's and marathons. She's a ridiculous, she's probably not human. Yeah. So I, but that we need to have her on. I'd like, you would be, it, I can't do that. How does she do that? I think she has some supplements that aren't legal that I don't know about, but the whole thing is big. Your life is big. You've done amazing things and you support people in amazing ways. And you're supporting your wife and eight kids and not gets a big life with your military experiences, which we're going to come right back to the story in a minute. But where is, if your wife was here, what's her name? Oh, Tana. Tana, if she was here, what would she say your blind spot is? Like, what's the thing that like? Brevity. Really? She would, yeah, she's probably say brevity and perspective. I mean, and we're all creatures of perspective in the here and now and what we see, right? We're hooking up with a few holes drilled in it, trying to interpret all the signs around us. And so, you know, I'm like everyone. She'd probably be like, well, you know, that you're too brief. No, no, she'd say brevity is like, I have no brevity. Like I, what does that mean? As demonstrated by this conversation, we've gone on 37 different tangents in about 11 minutes. Oh, I see. She would say, yeah. I actually like it. So what are some of your other blind spots? Because I'm seeing you as one of the best in the world at what you've done. And man, I like you. You like that, don't you? Yeah. Yeah. Tell me again. Let's dig into that. Yeah. Yeah. Can we pull on that thread? Yeah. So, so like, so what are some of your blind spots? Because I think what you're going to do is give a gift to other people. Like, so if you say, or if I were to say, yeah, listen, I'm just kind of anxious or I've got this that I'm working on that's kind of messy and whatever it is, other people be like, oh, I got that too. And I can be like on a path of. So I think it's interesting. You'll probably appreciate that. But I think strengths and weaknesses are really two sides of the same coin. So I think the blind spots and areas that I'm challenged with also have served me really well in other environments. So I know, for example, my impulse control is at about zero. Okay. Meaning I move, I make decisions very quickly. I act quickly. I commit all kinds of stories. I could go in with that. I'm not going to in the interest of staying on task. That has served me really well, probably about 90% of the time when I was leading people in crisis type situations where you didn't have the luxury to fully analyze and you had to quickly, again, going back to like blink, right? You're like zig and set a zag. Let's execute. All right. Just feeling this that served me well there. Now, you know, as a business owner, as someone who's working with with clients that that impulsivity, that's a good thing. That impulsivity, that speedy decision making isn't the right answer all the time. Again, there's a time and place. You know, bear a rips into your tent. It's good to act quickly. But when you're deciding, you know, you're working with someone on a three to five years strategy, you know, for their growth or innovation, you don't want to be flipping with those decisions. You want to be deliberate and a little more calculating because you can. And it's right. So that's one of yours. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And then how do you counterbalance it? How do you work with that? Yeah, so going back time married. And yeah, I get checked by this rock star wife of mine. He's like, really, do you think that's the best thing to do right now? And I'm like, I hope it is. I just transferred all our money into it. We're Bitcoin all the way, babe. At which point I sleep on the couch for a year until we have figured out how to go back. That did not actually happen. That's a hypothetical story. But let's not let the truth get in the way of a good story. Okay. That's good. No, so I mean, seriously, I just, I have to deliberately pause before making concrete decisions. It's that whole, I mean, Abraham Lincoln did it right. I'm going to write an angry letter to the generals who are taking me off in the Civil War. I'm going to sit on it for a day and then I'm going to fold it and put it in my top door and not send it. It's email you write that you don't send. It's venting to a trusted agent and then going, yeah, how you feel? That should probably stop here. So, you know, the compensatory mechanisms for me a lot of times is, who's that deliberate analytical person in my corner that I can share with? I was fortunate. I was in some organizations, right? Totally stack my team. And so you could, I knew my personality profile. I had good visibility on blind spots. I could plug in other senior leaders. Like, you're going to check me on this. You're going to check me on that. I'm going to actually touch you a bit and push you a bit. But together, we're deadly. Okay. You know, okay. Cool. All right. Cool. That's that's awesome. Let's go back to your story. Like we, we got to the place where you're 10 hours or 11 hours, whatever it might be, into the firefight. And now, now what's happening? So we're in a bad situation. We had no air support, no medevac. We're still taking casualties. We're fighting enemy within who are underneath it in these tunnels. They're coming from without in the surrounding districts and they're coming in numbers. We captured one of the radios or Afghans giving us reports from what they're talking to each other on the radios and it's bad. Our quick reaction force, the people we call to come rescue us, they get hit and their vehicle gets blown up. And so now they're stuck and they need rescuing. So now the people were called to help. We have to fight our way to them to help them, which we do. And then we link up. And it's, it's kind of that classic, you know, your worst day becomes your best day. So we were fighting tooth and nail really, because we didn't want to be a story on the news the next morning, but the greenberry team that got wiped out in northwest Afghanistan. Like we did not want to be that story. We link up with the guys who had in the gals who had come to kind of pull us out of this mess. And they were down to like one vehicle. They were surrounded. They're getting low on ammo. And I remember we're absolutely free sides just taking fire. And the enemy is getting bolder and bolder and they're closing in on it. And I'm like, this is awesome. I go, they're so hard to find all the time and now they're everywhere. So then working with my thought. You did. You did. Yeah. You had that. This is great. Well, probably that's probably a little too flippant because I mean, I just sent a bunch of my guys in a big mass away that were hurt pretty bad. I wasn't flipping well, but I was like, yeah, okay, now it's time. Now we're going to play our game. And so when the enemy had come out and now they were the ones who were the dominant force which happened very rarely in Iraq or Afghanistan where you were truly out now. But I remember thinking like, man, you know, to our forebears like in these global conflicts of World War one and World War two, like this was a normal thing like I don't know if I'm going to make it like it either was there was a parody. You hardly ever experience that as a as a US soldier in modern combat. You know, we talk to Ukraine and so he can tell you all about it right now. But what it's like to fight where you're not sure how it's going to go. But for us, we typically had all the advantages still dangerous, but you didn't worry about, are we going to get wiped off the face of the map and that thought kind of occurred to you in the back of your head a couple of times on this like we don't play our cards right. This can end really badly. And but the flip side was they were so confident they exposed themselves that our aircraft no longer had to see the ground we knew there was no civilians and they've been fighting for 10 hours now so we knew there's the only people here and I remember there was a radio call that got quoted back to me once where our headquarters 300 miles away goes Hey, are there any civilians in the area and I go if they do they got RPGs and machine guns so no they're shooting at us if they are like I don't know what this guy's day job is I just know he's really mad at me. And so we had it was this female squadron of F 15s that was flying overhead and they couldn't see us but my aircraft combat controller was able to tell them where the enemy was and give them grid coordinates and they were able to start dropping through the clouds. And so all of a sudden the enemy had totally exposed themselves and we were pinned down you know on the side of this hill on a road and had a very small position on this hilltop that was just getting hammered and all sudden bombs just start falling through the clouds. And it went from a very good day for the bad guys in that area and I say bad guys with air quotes to them we were the bad guys so but the Taliban. It went from a really good day for them to a really bad day for them. And you know under that cover and pressure we drag ourselves back to the forere operating base, which are some Italian soldiers there there was, you know a few other Americans and a few other Afghans we crawl in and I check on them and we're looking at our wounds like our Afghans at one point, you know the Taliban is basically calling out to them saying hey you guys are Afghans like us like just turn your guns in the Americans and you know we'll let you guys go we just want the Americans and our Afghans were like no I'm not doing that but their commanders like feel like this is bad like you know these guys are starting to make decisions about their own life and I can't speak for everyone but here's what's going on. And now one final word from our sponsors. Finding mastery is brought to you by our very own finding your best course. As you know from listening to this podcast our minds are our greatest asset. 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Again that's finding mastery.com slash course and enter the code Finding Mastery to receive $50 off the Finding Your Best Course. And now back to the conversation. So let's just use this as a moment for you to share your insights about teammates and teaming. Like how do you think about a great teammate? Yeah I think you have your line on purpose elevated levels of trust and it's built through shared experience meaning we had already been through a lot of hard stuff with those after ends. And they saw us every day we ate with them we trained with them. You know they were our true teammates peers in relationships so that was rock solid. You know we had gone out of our way for that and we had had a number of experienced less intense leading up to this. How do you build trust? Is it earned? Is it given? How do you think about developing trust with other people? So I think there's a couple answers to that question honestly and it's kind of like to your point there's multiple paths to the top right. So I think trust is I like to give people trust out the gate. You started in automatic 100 and it's kind of now based on your actions that might nudge down a bit or it might stay where it's at. But I'm going to choose to trust you out of the gate which I think is important as a leader. It's you know it's the old Russian saying of trust but verify. I mean I'm not going to blindly trust but I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt out the gate if we're together especially in a high performing selective organization. Like you wouldn't be here if you weren't showing up with some drive in some credibility because it's hard to be here. You know people don't end up playing for the Patriots if they're not to a degree trustworthy on the gridiron. And I need to be careful with sports analogies because again I don't come with sports background so I'll just put my football bat over there and we'll move forward. But you know to me trust is you have you have shared values. Number one shared values there's alignment on purpose not always the same but it's supporting in parallel so you got the purpose and values are in the ballpark. There is a degree of competence meaning you can do your part on the team or you have the capability to learn it and you have the drive and the humility to learn it. You know and then I think there's obviously integrity which you could say that's nested under values but to me integrity is is there congruence between your deed and work like do I know if you say you're going to do it or make your damn best to do it. And I think over time when that's and then is that tested are those three things tested in challenging situations because everyone's awesome when things are good. That's why I think you know I can I can read leadership book and I can you know I got this nailed. But it's not till you're really challenged in a tough situation you're like do I do I apply it or do I fold it up and you know act from a self centered spot. When I see someone in a challenging situation I mentioned you know General McNicholsen I've seen him under extreme duress before and his values are tried and true and his purpose was ironclad under situation where it's like if he continues to act and be this way it's going to ding him personally and he's just like this is this is what I believe and this is who we are and ironically the paradox is when people can over time I think when folks stick to that. You know the defining purposes and those values and you're authentic in the real overtime it plays out. Yeah I love that you're saying that you start with assuming best intent because the groups you're working with already have demonstrated a deep set of competencies and commitment to be at the level that you're talking about. Yeah the skill in the foundations there that's cool now it's who are you now it's yeah I assume till I know that. That does enough for my reasons you're here for your own glory but I'm going to watch. Yeah right and then will you confront we have a conversation if it seems like something sideways or do you just kind of file it away. It depends. I'd say more often than not now I'll address it. Yeah. Especially if it's if it's my organization. Now if I'm being brought on board to support and kind of consult or coach another organization they're like hey what do we do about like you know he's these values aren't congruent. With us how do we address it I might work with them rather than me going up it's not my place when it's my team my family. I'll address it and. You know without going too much down the road because I think. You know these are real people with realize but I had. You know someone who literally had saved my life on that same deployment makes them really bad decisions ethically. That I then had to flip and discipline him and when you settle for a low standard that becomes a new standard you know when anytime you walk by something you're establishing new and and and people who've worked with me know I'm not the. Pay setting driver leaders like you know in your face and and micromanaging but I think there are certain non negotiable and once you sack by those like kiss your culture goodbye and when your culture goes goodbye or your desired culture. You know over time everything else in a crumble and there's no shortage of examples both individually or collectively you can see that. That's cool so when you think about. The mindset required to be ones very best and when you think about we go back into. This radical story that you're walking us through. What is the mindset to do well under pressure and under duress and then is it separate or different. From the mindset to become your very best so start wherever you want. Yeah that's a church in question I feel like I have a re weasel wrestling and peanut butter my head right now I'm going to try to unpack what you do. Oh he's all wrestling peanut butter in my head. I stole that from someone but I really like it because I can see the analogy. So you're saying the mindset to be your best under pressure is that different that you know how to compare the mindset. Well I want to go into like a high pressured moment and talk about mindset and then I also want to think about like the general mindset to become your very best. No I think there's absolute alignment I'm a big leaver you know principles of universal like you know I working in leadership front. When someone comes up with something new I go it might be new to you but it's probably been around at least for about 2300 years since I've been writing this stuff. Weasel wrestling peanut butter. Yeah that's fairly new that came out in 2017. 17. I'm late to the game. It's all good. You won't judge. That goes viral though I want some credit okay. But it's just an image now I can't get it on my head I'm not going to be able to focus. But I think some of the principles for peak performance or number one is again it and I sound like a broken record but it's what's the purpose is it higher than you is it more than you. So your purpose is for your self-aggrandizement, your position, your comfort, your security. You can't excel past that because you have to assume risk. So to be at your peak to be at your 100% which you know I can go down a whole different road that I think because we're human we've probably never quite reached that but we always strive for it. I would argue you have to be doing it for something bigger than you and because doing it for you will only get you so far. Secondly I think you need to be focused you need to focus on the fundamentals. It's not about the sexy new thing. I love this because I worked for an organization that I used to support in different capacities and it seemed like this organization did stuff like it was like magic. We didn't know how I do that so good. And then I later became part of it you know this was after being a green beret and a ranger and then when I was part of it I realized we're doing the same fundamentals I learned 20 years ago as a private in the 82nd Airborne. We're just doing it with extreme precision extreme speed and under any condition we can execute it. I go but it's this if you distill it down there's nothing new under the sun. It's just can you do it in a disciplined excellent fashion regardless of the conditions. So you've got a higher purpose you have the fundamentals on lockdown because I can tweak and adjust the fundamentals to match a problem like you can you can shift and adjust how you play it you know. And I've seen that you know LeBron James practice free throws I'm sure I don't know him personally but I assume he does like those football bat with his football bat. Yeah I know it's complicated. Yes we can get a home run. Yeah. Or deduce or whatever it is. But the point is like I don't know I don't know what you're laughing at. I don't understand. But it's one of those things where if it's a higher purpose you've got the fundamentals nailed and then you're focusing like point positive you know I'll take people. You know on white water whether it's kayaking or rafting and it's one of the things I love with the guides I work with I always talk to people like hey we're going to point positive if something goes sideways we're going to point where you need to go what you need to do. So focus on the actions you need to take don't focus on what could go wrong if I do this or if I do that or that that don't screw up mentality like that will absolutely be a cancer in your mind and inhibit your performance because you probably know the psychology behind this far better than me. But don't dwell on what could go wrong and focus on what must happen to do this excellent. And if you can get into that condition you know I think you'll excel under stress and pressure. This is where team shows up like being around people that are quote unquote experts or masters of craft is that they can help shape the image they can point in directions that you you want to go and they want to help you go. Yes. And if you don't have that type of relationship in your life then you have to use your imagination. And the power of the imagination is radical when you can use the two of them together it's very special most people do struggle with using their imagination to see a beautiful compelling future with precision. Yeah. Yeah so that's actually really tricky that's why it's nice to have the old guard around that can kind of say and point to things that are to illuminate you know kind of like when you say now a chipmunk you know wrestling with you in a photo just to see what's going on. Wrestling with you in a photo just going to morph it just a little bit. Yeah well that's yours you can trademark. Yeah right we got it. So go back just one level back. You've mentioned discipline a handful of times. What does discipline mean to you. Yeah so to me discipline means you know doing doing the right thing or the correct fundamental step like I mean it depends how it manifests itself but you know having the patience and consistency to to get do the right thing whenever the conditions and that way like do the right thing say it again doing the right thing whatever the conditions whatever the conditions mean you say that you're like you have an impulse control thing. I mean my natural setting does right so there you had to really train that type of discipline that we're talking about yeah. And you it's you know all these things are it's like muscles right like you can if you can see a blind spot you can start working on it and then you can put yourself in conditions that force you to work on it. Yes the whole business model I do a stone waters you're going to lead a group your peers in a psychologically safe environment but it's going to be challenging but it's for a higher purpose and then we're going to dissect and reflect on it but the same principles you use here apply to use a CFO of a $80 million company or whatever it is. So to me discipline is like can you can you do the steps required you know whether that's the consistent personal habits you adopt yourself on a daily basis or organization like no we're going to stay stay the course on this overarching strategic plan because we've done the work now I'm not the flip side of course is that that doesn't mean being pigheaded or being stubborn like you also have to have awareness both yourself and the environment go. Hey are we on the right course what do you do outside of a working environment to develop discipline or cognitive flexibility or patience or awareness. Do you have any practices that you do outside of the environments where there's high heat. So you're meeting me personally. Yeah, definitely I mean right now aside from trying to manage six early teenagers at home on a daily basis with their mom in med school that's my high stress environment makes cereal look like a joke you know. But you know I I'm a big believer in probably like a lot of folks you come on here and in a very disciplined morning routine. You are you start with breathwork it starts with movement. I you know Jason Selke you've I don't know you've seen about everyone on this show so maybe he has or he's a future guest but from the sports psychology background 10 minute toughness like I'll use a modified version of his you know metal toughness drill but I'll apply it to my day so I'll kind of go through you know my identity statement you know my purpose statement. How are my values you know when I talk about faith integrity discipline love and excellence how does that manifest on April 20th and I'm just you know I visualize a movie of the day and cable how do I. What's integrity look like here when I'm talking to Mike means cut down on the make sure the stories are at least 30% true. You know it's a muscle I'm working on. But I mean you know so so I'll kind of work through that so there's a physical mental and even emotional piece to my daily practice that that I'll I'll try to incorporate I'll try to carve out deliberate times during the day to kind of reset or especially if I find myself getting emotional or reactionary in a situation all like stop. You know do some some breath work and literally all recite myself what's my purpose what are my values what would the person I want to be do in this situation whether it's as a spouse or a parent or you know an athlete or you know a leader. And then and then I act like that person even if I don't feel like it. Yeah, you know what you know what I would suggest there is like call up because you have acted with great benevolence or kindness or courage. Fill in the blank to explore that more a little bit more yeah. And so it's not like the fake it to you make it makes me cringe. And I'll tell you why is because you already know how to act with fill in the blank value of virtue. So it's calling that up to the surface yeah and even if it's for three seconds but you're calling from an experience that you've had not like I need to put on something that I don't understand. So it's like dipping in and even if it's only for three to six seconds and then you maybe have to recalibrate to bring it up for another three to six seconds but it's that that instead of like I got a fake confidence or fake something. It's like come from a place that's true and authentic. Yeah and it's linked to purpose right in values like the core like it's so much easier when those are in place those big rocks are in place. Yeah and you're like no no this is this is who I want to be I've done it before let me exactly let me bring. Let me bring that best part of feel forward and let them take place yeah and what gets in the way of the best part of feel coming forward. I think the natural reaction emotions and again being being passionate you know being being able to act with force in the past had a time and place. That's a cool statement. So you're not acting with that type of force. Yeah but that's not in even I would argue even in the high stress situations emotion was present but it very rarely was helpful. Anger, fear, anxiety, frustration like it's you know would you go numb or would you work with speed with the emotion. It's depending on the situation I'd love to say no I just totally could could shelve it and I ironically for me personally in combat emotion really wasn't a huge factor. Every now and again there would be kind of like a pressure to perform like I need lead better I need to you know I need to do like I would feel like I sucked. So there'd be a little bit of that that emotion of like you know I don't know if insecurity is the right right word to say but almost like an imposter syndrome. Especially when I when I worked to some pretty high end organizations but fear anger those things typically wasn't present in combat because it was so demanding like you had to be on your a plus game. And as a leader if I was doing the right thing my emotion my thoughts my feelings they had to go on the shelf because I was focused on the 700 folks I'm working with or you know what like it's you've got to be you're not looking in you're looking out. So it it really wasn't a huge part and again I you can call up some other people know they might throw the BS I'd be like oh my god no I saw crying once. It's like yeah because I ran a Snickers bars and it's really hungry that's totally different but what so how do you recover from those hard conversations or those hard experiences that are you know taxing. What is your recovery process in the sense of like where I felt like an imposter syndrome type thing or what. When you have spent a lot your resources you've had a dump a lot of resources to be able to do this hard thing whatever the hard thing is whether it's you know deep force from your previous work or line of work or it's a really hard conversation that's emotionally encouraged. You know I'd say that's that's probably a weakness of mine is how to rest and recharge and recover and refit I tend to very quickly shift my sights on the next. So what is high ground for you like what do you do for a high ground we all need high ground like kind of how do I how do I disconnect and what yeah like you center yeah it's. For me it's definitely nature. There's a reason I do what I do yes you know outside environment takes care of you that way yeah I think there's there's something so powerful about even even last night I was in the mountains just looking at the night sky and it's both this I'm so insignificant nothing and I'm everything at the same time like the perspective and the reality of what's going on in here in the greater scheme is such a small part it's my entire world. It's it's less than a speck of dust when seen and everything else and I think that perspective is really peaceful to me and really gives. It kind of gives you the sense of like it's it's it's okay it's it's going to be okay we're a flash in the pan we're we're a blink of light it's our blink of light so make the most of it but it's. You know the things that you know it's kind of like that 10 year rule in 10 years. Will this will this truly matter and there are some things that do I mean it's you know again my last line of business. Sometimes you're talking to someone spouse and tell them like your other person isn't coming home that that's going to matter in 10 20 70 years. But so much of what we deal with especially those kind of impulsive emotional reactions. So yeah my high ground is the ocean the mountains. Yeah so that's what you okay. Or provides respite. Yeah and embedded in even something that's challenging to do kayaking or whatever you're doing mountaineering. Before we dive back into Afghanistan you've you've spent a lot of time on talent selection. What are you looking for for people and I want to give you a jumping off point is that I spent a long time more than a decade helping NFL teams understand selection as well. Both both on both sides from the player side and then for nine season with the CLC hooks. And it's a full team that does it. Yeah it's a full team that does it it's not there's not one person the team is rad the scouts up there are incredible. I want to ask you a bunch of questions now about P Carol and the Seahawks because that's cultural phenomenon I I dig what little I learned about them like this would be cool. We probably don't have time for that. It was special. We know we can go for sure but it was special. One of the things that was like a go no go for me was low trust. So if the person had low trust. They're really hard to fold into a system. They're really hard to be part of something. They're very difficult to coach. So the challenge was extremely high talent low trust. Right. So they're big earners if you will. And they have demonstrated or explicitly said I'm not going to trust people. Individual performers cancer to a team right. Yeah so so I want to know big big swath like what do you look for in talent selection and then specifically drill into that one. So I look for attributes versus skills meaning if you have the right person the right mindset you know I can trust you you're adaptable you're committed and you have a baseline of competency or if you demonstrated the ability to learn I can bolt any skill on you. I have seen flute players become elite special operators in the space of about two years. That's like a real example I won't go any further into it but like it's the right person. You know they were committed our process was able to identify that they. And I won't go deep into the weeds but it's the whole if you look into you know. Special operations around the world the ones that are kind of. The standard bears. The majority of them. In the ones that are sustainable and good over time select on attribute versus skill now it's nice if they have the skill to. But the danger is you get the person is a ten on skill. And about a three on values and that will destroy your organization you just described with a high performer in the low trust. That's right. Like this person's amazing you see their their their combine score like. But then you bring them out there and it's like yeah the individually does well but the trust not the team can't perform. I'd take a team of sevens and eights and like the team I'm sharing the story with you and Afghanistan. We were not the top tier and special operations we were good. But we had very deep trust for a number of reasons and. That paid off in spades not just on that deployment that mission but on countless others and I mean you're still in touch now. Sixteen years later whatever it is yeah math and public always dangerous. You know it's interesting I worked with Montana states football team basketball team bid and. Really cool dynamic they let me work with them on culture and leadership. And I hope they don't want me sharing this but they they were unranked. In 2017 the gun National Championships twice from the last two years and it's to me. And there's great coaching and great development all kinds of stuff going on there but to me I look at it from my lens and I have seen a culture and leadership shift over time. And it's been directly as a result of some of the coaching staff and the leadership there which is neat because it's spent two coaches but they adopted the same approach. Different manifest differently but it was the same core principle and fundamentals. And I remember initially working with coach Jeff Joe and they had some players at what you described extremely high transfer. Big school East Coast put up great numbers individually but the commitment wasn't there the trust wasn't there. And then he had some other pretty good players that were extremely high on trust natural leaders. Servant lead like that just by their presence and how they acted everyone was better around them and they were pretty good too. Detroit Anderson place with Falcons now is like one of these individuals and and there's ways to assess it and find that. And it was really cool because when he kind of swallowed it was like hey we're we're going to let some of these high performers just kind of go their way. We're going to let some of the 10s go because it actually brings the team down to four and we're going to just pour into the six to the eights. If my number and analogy makes any sense and then the whole team started rising up and it went nuclear and there's all kinds of fun ways to do that. We had one of the most special talents in the world on our team and he hurt us six days a week and then on the seventh day he would hurt the competition. And so he was that special but he was hurting us six days a week. Yeah. So it's like the math didn't that doesn't make sense. That's a great way to put it. And it's interesting because it's so on the surface is easy to fall in love with skill and performance on game day. But it's everything you know it's the rest of the iceberg under the water. Who are you as a person what kind of liabilities do you bring to the table do you elevate other team members like I love was a book Captain Clap. They talk about the glue guys right. You know that they're in their all heart. It's right. Everything's it's all about the team and it's bigger than them and they do insane things. So what are the attributes that you listed a few of them but what are the core attributes that you're attending to. You know I think it depends on you know the organization in the mission but key things I look I think you hit on trust. That's huge. Adaptability is really good. Again depending on the field you know if there's some stuff where I'd say precision is key but if you're trying to build a high-performing team that is going to tackle situations and ambiguous unpredictable environment which I would argue the world is hashtag COVID like weird stuff happens that we have no say and so hey can you trust them are they adaptable and are they committed all in for the purpose. Do they like are they yeah I'm all about it. And those are three heavy ones I think discipline is a great one as far as you know someone who's disciplined will learn the process you can give them the playbook they'll memorize it they'll execute it they'll progressively get better and and that's you know he might not show up at a 10 he might show up at a 6 but you'll get him to that that nine or 10 he's committed he's got the discipline he's adaptable he can read himself adjust the environment and he's trustworthy so he elevates those around them. That's what's up so back back in Afghanistan you are you just had great air support. Now you're in a position like finally okay now we got him right where we want him. This type of idea but you're you're outgunned at this point. Oh yeah heavily and and we're by this point we really are getting low on ammo so I've been talking earlier about how you know as the ground force commander my job is not to be pulling a trigger because then I'm just one person doing work my job is to synchronize and coordinate the other 60 Marines screen brace and Afghan commandos who are with me plus the air support plus the Madivac plus reinforcements so like with my radios. I go from one person to a team of thousands right spread out all over even beyond the country. But because the nature of that engagement I'm right there. Throwing grenades and fighting alongside you know these other these other folks actually wrote a book and small part of it is in it this engagement it's called dagger to to use one of the main special operators who came out on the the force to rescue us that then they got hit. But we I'm getting low on ammo now like I'm the last guy should be shooting this organization I'm like I'm a good needs and down to about you know a magazine and a half left like we need to limp back and we have people now we have people who are injured. That we're trying to bring with us. And so we ended up going it was probably about I don't know three to five kilometers seems like it was about an ultra marathon but it wasn't that far if I look at on the map that we had to move ourself to get to this little alamo for in kind of liquor wounds. It's pretty funny because they had one vehicle one armored vehicle had made it out from the fort to halfway to our position we were able to get to it the one that was still working one was blown up and one was still working. And when this thing would move it was getting shot from all sides. You would see like about 30 people moving in it shadow just like oh please you know it's just kind of a one of those memories I have. And there's there's some pretty crazy video out there you know I can even show you kind of show a bit of this down the road. But we get back and we thought it was an epic defeat we thought oh my god we went out there. We just got our ass handed to us and the Afghans were like this was no good. And that lasted about 12 hours till we started getting reports from what happened on the other side which was they were like what just what happened last night. Like every day they go something just flipped the whole power dynamic in this you know bomber got district just flips. And where we you know so it's one of those things we're in the moment you're like I'm getting crushed as a leader. Like I was expecting to get fired when I came back and they're at one point. And I was like this is general is on the radio like yeah you guys just need to hold your ground you made progress out there like just hold what you got. And I'm like yeah no man I'm down to my last battery for a radio and I've got like 20 rounds and on the ground force commander like. And we can have the rest of this conversation once I get my force back behind the wire but not today boss. And we went back and yeah there was a pretty direct conversation I was expecting to get fired and he was kind of more just. He wasn't there and didn't see it and didn't like this was not a normal situation he's like why you guys like you're putting the boots to him like stay out there and I'm like. The boots are going both ways boss just so you know. But we realized within about 12 hours that that we had actually achieved a tactical level a pretty significant blow to the enemy that we were then able to capitalize on about two days later. And when we really went out for good and shifted it for good again in air quotes. Something that lasted several years and shifted the dynamic heavily to follow up on it. And even our Afghans about 12 hours later you would have thought they had like saved the world they're like oh that's pretty great. I'm like weren't you talking to Taliban my shoot me in the back like not 13 hours ago and I tell me like what a bad ass come on guys. So when you got recognized for that like it was a surprise or at some point you knew that okay that something happened and this is a pretty cool experience. I knew it was a pretty special experience but it was one of those where everyone on that element had tons and pretty incredible things. I know unequivocally there's people who did a whole lot more than I personally did out there that I think should have been recognized a lot more. Everyone was recognized in some capacity. A lot of it comes down to perception and they're like well you were going above and beyond and yeah in that's their words not mine. I would argue no I was actually just really just wanted to make it back in time for lunch. I mean I was getting angry. So. Okay so on that note when you're talking about your teammates and your partners in the experience like you've memorialized them with you tattoo on your arm. Can you just kind of walk me through the choices that you made and what it is? Yeah absolutely. So these are all people that I served with in some capacity and I say to a degree all of them are friends at some point. And I'd say each of them left a little piece for me to carry forward. I see it as part of why I do what I do is and the whole do good thing is I want to be the spouse, the parent, the citizen, the friend, the person of faith that they can't be anymore. And each of them have taught me something about leadership. So the whole construct of Stonewall are part of that is all we've little pieces of their stories and I don't like doing it like I'm capitalizing on their memories or their stories to make money. It's not like that but I really do try to weave it in and carry it forward because they're hell of a legacy. So Jay Blessing was killed the 14th of November 2003 in Afghanistan. He's actually was in a truck that I had been using but then I was walking up a valley and he was driving up it and he had an IED and provides explosive device and was killed and Jay was just that quiet hard working ranger. He's not a flashy glory guy, hair is mediocre at the best of days, he actually has shaved habit just just just that that workhorse type personality and you know I just learned from him like humble workman attitude about things. I'm not a gentleman, you know pretty famous, you know NFL football player who didn't feel right playing a game on any given Sunday when people were deploying john crack hours book on him I actually really appreciate it I felt like it was a pretty good opportunity but he was one of those people that taught me that leadership is wildly independent of your formal position. He just led by example and all that he did whether it was from what I heard on the football field to what I personally saw where both in second reign and tying together. And I'd had maybe 10 15 conversations with him over time and every time I walked away like I need to be a better person and I would just watch how he would interact with those people in my life my goodness and he would be totally humble and respectful and I'm just like I really don't have to call me sir anymore like you're you know and so so he any even how he died you know is a really tragic situation and Pat is stepping up trying to influence it for the better and putting himself in a wildly dangerous position pays for it with his life again under you know just totally Aussie conditions and there's a lot of confusion and mess that comes after it. But Pat taught me you you lead independent of your position leadership is leveraging influence to achieve an impact nothing there about being the CEO or the head coach. Say say again. Leveraging influence to achieve an impact to me that is the truest essence of leadership my kids lead me sometimes. You know by their example by their words. In other times I have to hook them by the nose and leave them because they're wild crazy kids. It's like no you can't throw axes indoors without eye protection. Ben Ben Tiffner was a Special Forces team leader who died in Iraq November 2007. Ben Ben was just someone who was was humble quiet kind of modeled away and he had this really quiet way he lived his faith that I thought was super cool it wasn't preach he was in it wasn't in your face but you kind of could tell what he believed. And where he stood on things just by the words and decisions that he would make in the axi-tuck which I thought was cool. Chris Shaw he was someone that you know I had known for years we went to Ranger school together so we both got really hungry he's he was a lean endurance athlete he's the only guy I know who probably gained weight in Ranger school like he had one meal a day and like this isn't bad. Everyone else was like shedding the pounds Chris went in like 130 pounds they went out he actually died in the Philippines he was working on a school construction project as a as a green berry engineer sergeant and him and another gentleman Jack Martin were blown up in their vehicle heading back to this site and it's one of those little known you know people don't think of the Philippines as American soldiers are doing things and they weren't there for the purpose of combat but they were in a conflict zone and pay their price. White goldsmith that's the medic I shared with you he was shot through the foot on that mission that I had to basically order him on the last medevac out because he's like I'm fine he's like I tighten my boots I'm good to go and every time he had stepped blood would screw it up top his foot and he was treating everyone else at the expense of himself and I'm like why are we going to walk like five miles back and I think we're going to shot the whole way. You're like 230 pounds I don't want to carry you please get on the helicopter and then finally I had to play the paper rock rain card and I you did yeah seriously get out of here. Oh no not really rock paper sisters you just said I'm for outracking you yeah we could we'd call it let's play rock paper rank and see you went I got it of course you rank. So I was I was going to win it's ironic is he dies in his next deployment. Again under fire treating to Afghan commandos in the south of Afghanistan and he's literally in the act of treating them when a rock pal grenade comes over the wall that he's behind explodes takes his life instantly. But he's it's one of those things where you go it's tragic but it's you know fairly scientific fact the most is diet some point I'm like that is you doing exactly what you felt called to do in the most extreme circumstances around my people who loved you. I'm like that is it's a tough story to beat. Pat Dolphin that's the marine special operator who had his antenna and grenade launcher shot off and then pack a cigarette switch we'll talk about that later. He was killed in the next in Afghanistan on the follow on deployment both him and Wyatt were killed about 15 days apart in his better month after I lost my mom so that was actually a pretty rough year for me. But but Pat was just you talk about that disciplined gritty warrior who was always doing things to get better he was he was that guy. Ben wise there's a really cool book written about him and his two brothers called three wise men his brother was a Navy seal and CIA operative was killed a year before Ben was. Ben was a greenberry sergeant who worked with me in first specialist forces group. He lost his life in northwestern Afghanistan. He was a specialist forces medic and again kind of that same thing he was shot and injured going to help some other folks again it was that whole show myself. This is this is a higher cause than me I will expose myself to try to help others. He ended up paying for with his life but just this legacy of humble servitude and leadership in the most gritty real way possible. Josh Wheeler was in the US Army Special Operations Command. He was the first American service member killed fighting Isis. On a prison rescue raid their partner force was getting pinned down in northwestern or northern Iraq I'll just leave it at that. And he basically with his other American his elements said on me like he just saw the situation needed something to change it. And so he he led his way right into the kind of the in the mouth of line for lack of a better word or into into that you know into that building. He paid for with his life the other person who went in with him was able to neutralize the threat they ended up rescuing 70 prisoners who were slated for execution the next day on that mission. It's the same mission where Pat Payne earned the Medal of Honor which that that story is available open source and well worth reading. Pat's a not a good friend of mine and just amazing person. And then last is John Dunbar who was again just kind of that humble servant leader absolute workhorse he died in Syria 30th March 2018. And he was just again. I could identify with him because he didn't come from like ultra high speed routes he wasn't an NFL player or college athlete. He was just a humble hard working soldier who joined young and just ground his way through it and ended up at the highest level in the special operations community. And his his core attributes did not change a lick he was just humble disciplined. You know could push through intolerable amounts of pain. And could be relied on you know that trust element to do the right thing whatever it was. So yeah I know probably went long there talking about that to you. Yeah thank you for sharing. I haven't lost that many friends. So how do you deal with the grief. And I'll be totally candid it's one of those hard things because there's a lot of other stories and people that probably have their place but I run out of skin because I've had tattoos for all my kids and there's like 37 of those. So you know it's a finite amount. So it's them and you know probably multiply I'd say about by two or three for some for some other folks. These were ones that I probably worked most close with or had the greatest impact on me personally. As far as processing the grief I think a lot of it is really work for me personally. I accept the fact that we all have a finite amount of time on this planet. No one's guaranteed tomorrow. It's what do you do with today. You know find something worth dying for and pour your life into it. And I believe these people did. So I have that as kind of a bit of a consolation. So I don't. Yeah I mean part of my heart feels empty thinking of what they would have done if their story continued and there's an element of survival survivors guilt that comes with it too like hey what. How come I got lucky I mean I had plenty of close calls and got banged up here and there but I get to go home to my kids tonight and you know get in bed with my wife. Why why them not me type thing and there's several of them like yeah you're quantitatively a better human being than me. But I think part of it is just accepting that. You know we don't know when our time is. They. They all live very full lives I'll be at shorter than probably any of us or they would appreciate and certainly their family members. And then it's how do I carry their legacy forward how do I take the best parts them because they're all human. But they all had this unique essence that made them special and how do I ingrain that into what I do. How do I kind of inculcate that in you know the kids I'm trying to raise how do I inculcate that in the teams I work with. In a humble like you don't want to be the disgruntled or entitled to that who. You know let me tell you about the hard stuff I've done and how you should be like it's not about that it's. This person was really special and here's what made him special and here's how we can cultivate and grow that in your organization or you as an individual leader. In a lot of times it's people will ask and I'll share their story and they're like I need to be more like that like tell me about. You know Pat Tillman in the gym how just he would you know everyone else would be doing their three sets and he's doing sets between his sets and. Just that commitment and drive to excellent you know doing the hundred twenty percent. Worked you're like I need to I need to adopt that. So yeah it's carrying them forward and. Yeah I mean I have you know straight up you know talk to professionals and therapists and tried to work through. Some but I really find you know maybe something's broken in me but I'm not terribly sad because. To me these were great friends and many more and to me it's like. Hey how do you carry that for how do you know it's like kind of like that saving private Ryan like make it make it worth it right. So that's a great. I think that's a beautiful way to. And their conversation here because what you just described is practice fragility. Practice the fragility of life. Right and then have clarity of the virtues that people have impacted you and then carry that forward into a brighter tomorrow. Those three versions of practicing grief. It's pretty bad. Yeah man so thank you and can I give you a couple quick hits just to kind of round us. All right let Jesus take the wheel or see where this goes. These are these are one or two word responses okay. We're channeling your wife here. It all comes down to. Purpose. Living the good life is marked by. Being happy with what you have. Success is. Relative. The key to success is. I already said relative. I think it's you know going back to first answer it's a living your purpose. Pressure comes from. Within. I am. Learning. My vision is. It's honestly to connect and inspire. I'm confused most by. We as wrestling and peanut butter in my head. Who tells you know. Who tells me know. Yeah. And I've got three teenage daughters. They said you got to tell me that. Yeah. So if you could sit with any master. Who would it be. What one question would you ask them and where would you want to sit with them. Just because. Ryan holiday and all his books I'm a big fan of Marcus Aurelius and just reading his writings. So you wouldn't want to talk to Marcus. No I'd want to talk to Marcus Aurelius assuming we had a translator. Oh I see what you said yeah. Yeah I mean here you are the head of the Roman Empire at its peak the last of the five good emperors. And again I'm not a history major so if I'm getting this wrong please give me grace. But here he is he's had it all and he's journaling to himself every day this stoic philosophy and how to apply it. How to be a better man. And half his lessons are from someone who had been a slave. So he's at the highest apex of society and he's writing lessons he learned. You know second and third hand from epic thetis this crippled slave stoic philosopher. Yeah forgive me for having a lack of creativity but I'd probably want to do it at maybe the Grecker brewery in Fargo on a summer day. It's great beer. And what question would I ask him? I would just ask well this is harsh but I'd ask him what he did wrong with his son. I mean you know what happened the comet is like you you were the and it just goes to show the apple can fall pretty far from the tree sometimes. You know I think Russell Crowe did everything he could you know to save the Roman Empire. But then comad is just dorked it all up. Yeah and I didn't even know that camera is back then by the way. So what a cool movie. Oh my god. Alright so your philosophy. You can cut that out if you want. That was perfect. Your philosophy is know yourself lead yourself lead others. What does that mean to you? Yeah I think it really begins with self awareness. You know honestly seeking truth with Ann and Gwen. Why am I on the side of the grass? Why have I been gifted today? And when you can start to answer that question and start to unearth it and refine it. Then I think truly you can begin leading yourself to be that person. And it's it's kind of cyclical and ongoing. It's not like a serial steps. Like we're all doing this all the time right like you're a CEO. You don't have time to up scond your position authority and you know go discover who you are. Like you're doing it while you're also leading. But I think you know as you build your internal awareness and lead yourself. That you truly become the far more effective authentic leader. Awesome. You're a former army green berry. And Ranger and a couple other things. What does mental toughness mean to you? Mental toughness to me is it's really being able to do the uncomfortable hard things for a higher purpose or for a purpose. And it can be organic adversity. Meaning you're just in a hard situation. I you have a lot of people very upset at you and you're trying to survive the day like you know April six 2010 for me. Or it can be engineered adversity where you're like you know what like pretty good and comfortable right now. What what's between that comfortable and impossible zone that I need to seek out to keep my edge sharp. And then push to it. And that's what I do. And that's what I do for folks. I work with this. Let's let's push a bit. And I think that builds battle toughness. Phil, thank you for sharing a really important moment in your life. April six. Thank you for sharing people in your life that matter to you and inspired you. And thank you for sharing the insights you've learned from your experiences and from them. I'm honored to have the conversation with you and I laughed a lot. I appreciate you. Thank you for coming through. Yeah, right right back at you. It's it's a I'm willing to be here an honor and yeah thanks for your patience and ability to someone keep me on track. Yeah, that sounds great. All right, more to come. Awesome. Thank you. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. 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