Overcome Burnout, Enhance Focus, Build Culture & More | AMA Vol. 8 with Dr. Michael Gervais

Part of my origin story is I didn't know I was enough and so I worked my ass off obsessively uncommonly so to be good enough for who it wasn't for me but it was like me trying to feel okay being okay I had to show I was smart I had to show I was competent I had to show that you know I could figure things out all those were helpful but they cost me at one level you know intimacy with myself and intimacy with my wife welcome back we're welcome to another ask me anything on fighting mastery the ever insightful and entertaining O'Neill sespinus is back to cohost this month's AMA and per usual we have real fun diving into your questions chatting about what to do if you're feeling burnout and overworked grappling with the need to prove yourself to others how to build culture and hire appropriately the difference between high performance and mastery feeling like you're behind in life and one question that you want are you a thermostat or thermometer all that and more is coming your way right now on volume eight of finding masteries ask me anything okay O'Neill we're back back how you been I'm doing well actually really well what do you been up to okay I got a dilemma actually so I have been up to a lot of things but my mom she got a she got a dog and she didn't know what kind of dog it was my mom's not really good shout out to you mom if you watching this nothing against you my mom's not really good at taking care of dogs and so I said you'll take the dog to the vet find out what kind of dog it is it's a much so she takes the dog to the vet you know a couple weeks go by and whatever so I call her and I'm like so kind of dog is it she's like oh you know they say it's something like a um a cane corso and a mast if mix whatever those two things are right so I'm like that's not a small dog mom yeah this is a cane corso mast it makes you like yeah I was like mom do you know both of those dogs are huge both of those dogs mixed are huge you're I was like you can't handle this type of dog so she's like okay well why don't you take the dog take the dog off my hands and y'all yeah so I'm like I can't tell my mom no but I didn't tell her yes oh so you you haven't taken it yet I haven't taken it yet I'm torn because she sent me pictures of the day the dog is as big as me yeah I don't know deal with this because that means human size that's right poops to hands yeah too yeah I'm like I don't know help me out I've got my own dog issues right now where my my guy Morris he's been getting pissed off that we've been leaving and so pre-pandemic dog was awesome listened to what you know it like it was great during the pandemic dog was awesome because he was with us all the time yeah post-pandemic when the world opened up I was traveling more he started to act out a little bit right now he's flat out pissed off when we leave the house he he he shreds it so much so that he got into a bunch of toilet paper it was cumulative it wasn't just one time that we had to take him to the vet and so I didn't realize this but toilet paper has bleached in it and so he poisoned himself so like I got my own behavioral things right now like I don't know if I can help you out right now he said that's just literally I'm washing get a dog but toilet paper has bleached in it yeah how about it that's crazy so we've been bleaching our butts with toilet paper all this time we ignore I knew you're gonna go there I had to yeah so it's great to see you again great to see you yeah I love doing this with you but where do you want to take us um well hey Josh has a question for you Josh says we are a mid-size tech company although the economy is constricting and the talent pool is growing we struggle to find the right talent that's the right cultural fit do you have any insights they can be pulled across from your experience the pro football that are you know applicable to this to a matching talent with culture it seems that in those kind of high performance cultures chemistry is everything many thanks from Josh okay so Josh the first thing I hear the question which is I'm looking for cultural fit and he's saying how important cultural fit is I'm nodding my head my experience has been that even across some of the best professional teams sport teams in the world culture is not clearly identified it might be words on walls but they might have done the exercise of having clarified their values or you know a sentence or two or a paragraph about what their culture is even maybe many pages but it's not really clear it's an intellectual exercise that they've done to get some words and then it hasn't come alive yet so the first thing is like I would I would kind I would slightly tilt my head to say is the culture that you're looking for clearly identified because if the answer is yes and not just Josh but four or five other people in the organization close to Josh could say oh yeah it's this and they're saying the exact same thing or something very close to it then then I know they're on to something because finding the finding the characteristics that support and align to the culture is not hard so the first work is what is the culture is it something that's living and so that's the big rock they get the container the second piece is through the screening slash interview process is to put people under high stress high heat put them under a a duress experience so you can see if those characteristics that they say that they're about are real it's no different like in your world in jiu jitsu where people are good when the talent is like matched but as soon as they get into a high heat moment when there's a couple belts up maybe people are watching maybe there's something on the line and you know it as well as anyone that people tighten up and so when people tighten up the question is do they have access to those skills or do they have access to those characteristics that they're presenting in the job interview and back to the job interview do they have those characteristics embedded within them so that they're able to access them under duress so let me just kind of quickly recap is the culture clear can people in the in your company articulate the culture and are they living by it that's kind of phase one phase two is the interview for those characteristics that would support that culture phase three is put them under duress to see if they're about it let me get this right during the vetting the interview process turn up the fire a little bit that's right just to see if they fit the culture that you want and if they don't fit that culture then obviously you have the choice to be like okay I'm bringing you in that's right into the fold that's interesting I want to make sure I wore this right what's an example how can you turn up the fire so to speak to try to summon this thing that you want out of them one of the things we would do at the NFL combine is we needed to turn up the heat to understand the the deeper attributes of the person so the NFL combine is some of the greatest college players coming into one arena so that we can understand who they are physically technically mentally and from an intelligence standpoint as well and so one of the things we're doing in a 15 minute interview like a very short brief amount of time as we need to understand how they operate under pressure now this is in many cases the the quote unquote biggest job interview that they've ever had so the heat is already naturally embedded in this in this room and you've got you got people that stand in the way of access to your NFL dream okay so one of the things that we'll do in this interview process is I'll I'll ask them like what type of competitor are you and everybody wants a kind of puff up like I'm a dog competitor like I'm a gritty grindy you know I'll do whatever it takes I leave it all in the field type of thing okay few minutes later as we're starting to turn up the heat and I'm asking questions at a at a fast pace just to see how they're handling that speed because I know what's about to come is I kind of pause directly square up with them I say you know I want to see how your mind works under pressure you good for that and I just watch and I'm watching everything about them I'm watching their pupils I'm watching the the flushness of their skin I'm watching the micro expressions I'm watching their body posture what do they do in that moment that I ask them if they want to test their mind under pressure and it's that moment that reveals so much information then they have a response that is obvious to everybody and that response is yeah or it is uh what do you mean so gathering in for more information is not a problem but it's sending that they're they're saying that they're not completely ready to test themselves at the drop of a dime like they need more information that's telling me something about how they process while they're under pressure or stress so then I'll I'll see if once we're in agreement and they want to do it I'll say okay here it is it's simple little test I say do you know the alphabet and you would say yeah of course say can you count to 26 yes of course yeah okay good you want you want to give this a go sure okay good so the answer to the first part of the test right okay so so I want to see how well you can thread those two things together so you will go A1 B2 C3 and let me so let's go ahead and start at the beginning and see how far you can go okay A1 B2 C3 D4 E5 F6 G7 H8 i9 j10 k11 m12 and you miss 11 L L so yeah you took the L you take the L right now yeah yeah yeah so so then what I'm looking for is like how you do the thing so you're having fun you're doing it and you're working right so I'm like oh okay so he's he's probably gonna put in work like he just he's stepped into it it's not so much what how you did but it's how you it's not so much how far you got but how you did what you did and then what I do in the actual combine experiences I pause after you make your mistake right I pause and even if you get all the way to Z pause and I'm just waiting to see what they do next and then in that pause you'll say like how'd I do oh you your reference point is others right and I'll say how do you think you did you say I think I could do better can I go again oh so you are a competitor so there's all this rich information that takes place and you probably felt your heart rate came up a little bit did you feel even right now yes you did yeah right and so it happens to me too like so heart rate comes up and then how do you handle that heat yeah right and so you stayed in it and you laughed you know so that's a you're teaching me but more importantly you if if I would have done it right I would have paused to see what you do next and that's where there's radical information that's ported so that's how we know if somebody has the attributes the characteristics the qualities that we're looking for to be a cultural fit the clarity of culture is the big rock to know what the the business and the culture stands for is really important then you can do some of this high heat stuff and if you're listening to this and speaking to the audience you're like oh that's really good I'm gonna try that yes and no like there's rules in the business world that's different than in pro sport the point is that you really want to create an experience for people to reveal their true self their attributes because we can coach up for skill we can we can take the the raw clay if it it's a good cultural fit and we can teach skills I'd much rather teach skills than something that is harder to develop a personality slash a characteristic or attribute of a person yeah okay wow okay makes a lot of sense so knowing your culture is first and foremost knowing that and understanding what it is and then graphing those questions or those tests to make those per people reveal and here's a really good example there's a there's an athlete on the saddle see hawks Tyler Lockett and he's a wide receiver so wide receivers are the ones that the quarterback throws to they catch the ball and they score a lot of points you know they're they're the one of the big offensive threats and typically you want somebody that's being strong fast dynamic you know all of those attributes that you would attribute to what looks to be a great wide receiver Tyler Lockett when you look on paper doesn't have the characteristics like the physical characteristics that you say oh that is that person's gonna change the game somebody like decay make yeah exactly so you know exactly the the profile we're talking about yeah decay mac half is like six foot four two hundred and something six percent body fat jumps 42 inches something like that yeah amazing physical specimen when we were when we were selecting for the receiver when Tyler was coming to the league we chose for cultural fit and look look what he's done like he's an amazing athlete and he makes everybody around him better because of the way that he shows up every day so he's a great competitor and he makes us better six days a week on the seventh day game day we're lucky we have him because he's made all of us better and he's got this radical skill set himself that he's making us better on day seven as well the opposite can be true you take the talent that looks the part but doesn't have the the cultural fit they hurt you six days a week and then they show up on game day and maybe you're sure maybe you're not sure what you're going to get you know because the first six days have been hard uncommonly so at the Seattle Seahawks we we're looking for cultural fit and you have to have physical talent so there's nobody on there's nobody on the Seattle Seahawks that doesn't have both and so visit when you get physical talent and you get all those core attributes lined up like the culture comes alive it's amazing and so that's what's fun about pro sport that's what's fun about big business that's what fun about any business is that you get to create the team that you want to have represent the culture you know to represent the mission and so if you're in a position to hire it's really exciting and if you if you are being hired then what I say to folks that like when I'm going out to be part of a club or a business or whatever I want to really understand what they're about because I'm about to give everything I have to that mission to this culture and if the culture is not strong I'm not I'm not into it so like either way whether you're hiring or being hired it's incredibly important to know what the culture is about yeah so for for the hiring obviously you want to be part of a culture that that fits you whatever that is you want the job and as much as it pays if it doesn't fit your culture it's not a position it's an uphill slog the whole time so what Josh should do and correct me if I'm wrong here is formulate a test or some questions or something pertaining to the culture of this business and then use it to ses out you know if this is the right person I'm going to pause the conversation here for just a few minutes to talk about our sponsors finding mastery is brought to you by Sundays if you're like me your dog is a really important part of your family what are you feeding them I feed them Sundays and he loves it so Sundays it's the first human grade air dried dog food and it's the only one I use now with my dog combining the nutrition and taste of an all natural human grade food all designed with the ease of zero prep ready to eat meal plans Sundays is the best way to feed your best friend so unlike most human grade dog food Sundays is gently air dried and it's ready to eat versus the other brands that I have tried these two that are cooked and frozen instead and you got to kind of do something with them to prep it and there's a whole cleanup thing on the other side not with Sundays it's as simple as scoop and serve and then you watch your dog just go kind of 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athletes and executives over my career this course has been one of the projects that I'm most excited to share and I hope you find it incredibly meaningful in your life and I'm really excited to announce that you can now access the course through our brand new website finding mastery dot com to sign up for the course check out the new website and because you're listening to this podcast we want to give you 50 dollars off the course today just head over to finding mastery dot com slash course and enter the code finding mastery at checkout again that's finding mastery dot com slash and enter the code finding mastery to receive 50 dollars off the finding your best course and with that let's jump right back into our conversation all right so I hope I don't butcher this name saran john saran john I feel I feel like I'm saying your name right if I'm not I'm sorry hey dr mic i'm a baseball athlete and there's something I've noticed over the months I've heard that our attention is the fuel my attention seems to be at peak at the start of my trading week and as I approach Friday my attention seems to decline I experience more mind-wondering and I get sloppy with decision-making and focusing on a particular task any suggestion for me yeah sure I mean there's a lot of information here but the the first thing I hear when you read that question is attention is fuel which I don't I don't understand that I don't see attention as fuel I see attention more as a spotlight and so let's let's talk about fuel for a minute but the spotlight or in a minute I should say the spotlight is like where do I place my gaze where do I place my light and my light can be something on something outside of me or inside of me so attention at any given point in time can be focused outside so I'm focusing on you right now and it can be focused on the broad world or something very narrow so I'm right now I'm looking at your eyes and so it's external focus external attention narrowly driven so let's just take that for a minute because what I need to be able to do is hold that focus and then shift to maybe a big picture and then come inside and think about something and then come back outside and focus back on you so there's this interplay that happens on attention spotlight is where do I put my attention where do I put my spotlight is it external or internal so that when I hear when I hear that attention is fuel I don't quite understand it and because fuel for me feels like energy it feels like the material for combustion and so when you hear that question what what comes up for you when you hear attention is fuel I think fuel is in motivation yeah that's how I hear too and so attention is that motivation unless it's like I mean I guess you could kind of get there what you're motivated for you'll maybe attend to more easily like there's that piece but what I hear in there is there's a cognitive fatigue by the end of the week and so my spotlight feels dimmer it doesn't feel crisp it doesn't feel like it can go inside and outside quickly it just feels like that spotlight is not working as well as I would like it to work is that what you're hearing in the question as well for me if I if I'm rolling or playing a sport in particular I can have what I think fuel I think go I think energy I think just drive like I don't get tired I'm ready to go but I've been in positions where I'm going and I'm going I'm going but my attention is completely off and I'm making she's telling mistakes I'm just going while making mistakes I'm just making mistakes harder and faster so yeah I don't get the correlation between attention and fuel because I look at them as two completely separate things yeah so should we answer the attention question or the fuel question probably the attention thing because I know the fuel is it Sir Surajan fuel is fuel it's just energy that's the way I'm looking at it I think the attention thing yeah so if you don't have that fuel bit in place attention is harder so that if let's go motivation and then energy we're just a minute so if it's an energy conversation that that makes sense to me that Monday maybe I recovered well on Saturday and Sunday got my sleep in you know I was social I you know I just I had a great enjoyable weekend and then Monday it kind of hit the gas go hard bang here we go but then by Friday I haven't replenished my energy sources so that's it that's a very typical experience for many people yes attention the ability to focus deeply would be compromised by the end of the week if your energy system isn't replenished properly and there would also be that fuel thing that we're talking about where it doesn't feel like I have the the volitional kind of get up and go on Friday that I would like so on the attention piece I would still probably look to the raw energy that I'm I'm replenishing how am I replenishing my energy there's there's only five really ways that we know how to do it and there you know them and I know I'm grandma on to them sleeping right eating right and hydrating moving right stretching and exercise and mobility and fitness and data and socially kind of being around vibrant fueling conversations and people and then thinking right using your mind to be able to not drain your resources on the problems you're trying to solve in life but to actually be thoughtful about how you apply your energy and if you don't think well if you're anxious depressed struggling in other ways or just kind of not focused on a life purpose or passion it's just we drain energy at a much higher clip so those are the big five and so I think that that's where I naturally go with that question so I have a question for you so obviously mental fatigue encouragement from wrong and mental fatigue and physical fatigue are two different things right or would you say they're linked they're linked so the whole system is linked so you know the heart try to pull apart your mind a body or separate but they're really not separate and so one goes the way the other goes and so when we strain it's a cost we are we're using energy when we strain and everything has strain to it sitting has strain talking has strain thinking has strain applying yourself on a jujitsu mat has strain like there's strain in everything even recovery has strain ice bath or a massage there's strain involved in it level of strain obviously varies so there's always like a cost to everything that we're doing and so we need available resources to be able to manage the zest for life that we want to have and those resources need to be replenished every day wow that's interesting because it's funny because when you said it makes complete and total sense but you know I can say for myself I never look at it like man if I'm sitting that has strain as opposed to it's a small task it's a small task but it's draining nonetheless yeah you know I'm always like or someone will say may you just sit down when you're doing what you're tired for yeah imagine sitting here crazy and then you're almost experiencing the same sort of mental fatigue that you experience from training with someone that's better than you that smashes you continuously it can be you never link I have never linked the two yeah it can't be like the point is that everything that we're doing has a cost yeah and and you could be sitting and burning right through resources if you're sitting pissed off if you're sitting with a compromised posture if you're sitting anxiously like you are ripping through resources and not physically moving very much yeah yeah wow you know another element of this is that people have that there's this phrase I'm working for the weekend and like I understand it and in one level it like like breaks my heart to think about people spending their life you know in service of something that they don't value they're working in a company or organization that is not meaningful to them but they're they're doing it just to have relief on Saturday and Sunday Friday night whatever I wish that people could figure out how to have a deep passion in everything that they do like that zest for life whether they are in a um a nine to five that they don't love but they're doing it for a reason that is far greater than themselves or that they can figure out the meaning and purpose in the nine to five for the thing but it's not just the relief on the weekend it's like in service of something big that you're passionate about I mean yeah I agree you know you just made me think of something when you said the whole working for the weekend thing and the full-time recovery thing because now you're seeing professional athletes you know especially basketball players do this whole load management thing and the world the sports world is pissed at them for doing load management but on their side they're like well this is how I can you know prolong my career this is how I can have more clarity more more longevity I can just you know I feel better I'm happier about playing the game this game that I was happy playing when I was a kid when it wasn't this you know financial thing attached to it but in this in this world that we live in this machine it teaches us even as athletes doing something because I'm assuming you know surround John is an athlete doing what he loves to do he's one of the few people in the world that are doing what they love to do but even he is experiencing this whole fatigue thing come Friday because it's like bust my asses you know as much as I can to be the best player I can be but this machine that we live in teaches us to do that to you know when I was little you play football there's one two three hit somebody just go go all out you know I'm hurting go go back out there again you know we're taught to work long hours we're taught to throw our body into somebody and try to break him into it we're taught to just go all out and this has been going on for so long now so all these questions that like surround John is asking or what I've experienced you've experienced it's like now we're unlearning how do we how are we supposed to like because it feels like doing the load management thing or being like man I'm not working for the weekend I'm I want to enjoy all this it feels like you're going against the system when you say I'm going to look for a job or I'm going to do something that I really love to do where I'm going to load management coach I actually I don't want to go in right now I don't want to play this game because I don't feel really well my anguars is that okay coach you know because your coach will look at you like me what they get off the team yeah so I how to how to how does one you know work into that because it feels like it's up you're you're fighting in a little battle well the in the pro sport world European sport is when it comes to sport sciences is about 10 to 15 years ahead of us big sport and in many of the European clubs they the sport science and the coaching staff and the athlete are working together on load management so everyone's on the same page and so if you crush a talent and you overwork and under recover any human speech anyone right whether it's in in sport or otherwise overwork under recover they they don't show up right they're they're you're you're heading them right to a car crash you're heading them right into a disaster physically and or emotionally mentally for that for that person and so managing talent is a really important thing to do and so whenever one's on the same page it's far better and that's what we're when we talk about culture making sure that culture values the people's experience more so than the product but a fast follow that those two need to be hand in hand whatever the service of product that the company's building so how do you do it when you're not in a club or an organization a big business or otherwise that is that understands what we're talking about because margins are thin the economy is constricting now's the time we got to go we don't hit this window we're in trouble which are real conditions if those people are already afraid it's really hard so we want to make sure that we're helping people manage their energy systems as best as they possibly can and if you're on your own if you're trying to figure it out on your own you just hear this and be like okay how do I across every day how do I manage my energy properly how do I pour in and then recover well and a two day vacation at the end of the week is not working a one month vacation at the end of the year doesn't work it's a thin slice throughout the 16 hours you know of waking moments that you're trying to replenish as often as you possibly can you got to get the big rocks in sleep is the big rock to get in place yeah eating right moving right all that other stuff but thin slicing is an interesting way to think about it and for Surajan to squarely answer the question you can change the way that you see your days it's one of the things we did the CLC hawks each day had a theme so competition Wednesday that was the day we were really bringing it and everybody knew Wednesday was a day we're really bringing it tell the truth Monday that was a day we're gonna be incredibly clear about what happened on game day and Sunday so you could have Friday be play day you could have Friday be explored day you could have Friday be you know whatever you want it to be and so just changing the the focus for the the day might just open something up in a different way as well so it's it's in it's in Surajan's hands what's in your hands right it is yeah yeah and now one final word from our sponsors finding masters brought to you by seed on this podcast you've may have heard me talk about habit stacking that's basically the idea that you can build a new habit by linking to an existing habit literally you're stacking the two behaviors together and not only is it efficient but it's a great way to usher in a new habit that you're wanting to 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redefining what it means to live healthy or for longer and if you haven't already I want to highly encourage you to go check them out to see the full list of nutritional supplements that I use and to get 20% off of your purchases just head to Thorne THORNE.com slash U that's the letter U slash finding mastery again that's Thorne THORNE.com slash U slash finding mastery and now back to the conversation all right next questions anonymous by most standards I'm not even read anonymous like why why would you not want to put your name anonymous why would you not want to put your name one here what are we doing you know I'm saying now Dr. Mike don't want to read you I know you know do we read them or her let's go let's see let's see if it's the question stand anonymous you lucky we'll read your stuff next time give us your name my most standards are my highly successful athlete I perform on the world stage oh that's why you get out of this we get it we get it we get it anonymous but I still feel the need to prove myself I know that on paper I'm one of the best but I don't feel that way I'm sick of it tired of carrying this weight around with me I'm guessing that's something you encounter with your clients how do you help them move through it thanks Dr. Mike okay Tiger I'm glad I'm glad you wrote into us yeah that I love that question because I think any most people would be surprised just how real that is for people that have already put a medal around their neck they've already won the championship or they're an all-star whatever it might be that feeling early on that I need to do something special with my life that I want to get after it and I'm talking about a eight to twelve-year-old kid a sixteen-year-old it says I want to be a pro I want to I want to I love sport I want to see how far I can go or I love arts or I love that like that early adoption like I'm going to go get something and do something is like it's cool you know for a lot of reasons it gets you good however it is also part of the playground where I'm not sure I matter without that good excellent extraordinary performance so there's a commingling between identity and outcome and when we fuse those two things together we have to work to pull them apart in a healthy way so what happens for many professional athletes is that the fuel that got them good isn't necessarily the thing that's going to allow them for joy and happiness and it's likely not going to get them to the next level so something we talk about at the Olympic level all the time is what got you here is likely not going to get you there what does there look like for you and so you think about it's a it's a radical and I mean that word intentionally it's a radical commitment to let go of what got you to the world stage that's a very difficult thing to do because it's worked and I can hear athletes right now you know saying no I eat I eat the same food that mom made me that's worked I eat that food every day what do you mean you want me to eat this stuff you want you want to take my blood and see like how my food's doing I'm good so there is there is some of that on the world stage everybody thinks that the best in the world are like really pushing there's some that are holding back because they're afraid to let go as well but their talent is just so good at this level but it doesn't mean that they're going to ever reach their potential because they're still holding on to old practices that are not allowing the next unlock to take place but this this unlock that we're talking about from anonymous is that feeling that I am not okay nothing can feel that whole that I feel because it's not performance isn't going to solve it anymore attention from other people is overrated I don't feel seen I don't know I really matter I feel like I'm more of a commodity than a partner to somebody in life and so this is why relationships are so important and honest relationships with people that see the person and not the performer and that this comes up often and it can come up at like different levels as well I'm thinking about thinking about an Olympian that I'm spending time with right now heading into the Tokyo games and already a former Olympian incredible at what she does and there's still this nagging little thing this little voice like if I make a mistake is it all going to fall apart if I make too many mistakes are they going to find out that I've just gotten really lucky I'm not that good I just am a hard worker and it could all fall apart house of cards is a feeling that that happens for many and so you know I think it's a we should maybe just take a breath of fresh air here that that's a real thing for not just elite athletes but for many of us and so I think most people can see themselves in that in that question at some level you have a couple questions you're just a whole bunch of questions in my head okay so when anonymous says that you know I still feel the need to prove myself right and that they know that on paper they're one of the best but they're sick of carrying its weight around and I was listening to you just give this whole explanation about all of that the house of cards things I feel like the house the house of cards things has been intensified because of the new world we live in with social media and how the ones were that were great people get forgotten really fast and get passed over really fast the Kobe Bryant thing comes to mind where he just gets knocked to the side now people are like okay he's like it's not on the mile rush more you know or the LeBron thing where is that is that real yeah yeah I've yeah it's LeBron and Jordan Kobe's not even a discussion just like this moving moving to the side is LeBron and Jordan where is it was it was Jordan and Kobe yeah and I'm not saying one is better than the next but I just know that Kobe's getting moved to the side really fast too fast and I almost feel like the social media world kind of does that like people get erased very very quickly like Dwight Howard or Clay Thompson not making the top 75 like these people that have done phenomenal things because this world is moving so fast information is moving so fast opinions are coming so quickly we're just like yeah but Jordan no no no no but the LeBron thing comes to mind because I almost feel like he is a he is a victim of his own success like when I hear complaints about him now I they might as well say things like LeBron can't breathe underwater well LeBron can't breathe in space can LeBron fly yet yet this is a guy who was like who was crowned the king at 12 years old lived up to the expectations surpassed the expectations did everything that he was supposed to do and then more but I always marvel at when I listen to sports announcers or people make comments about him so I'm like well damn what else the first thing that comes to my mind is what else the man got to do does he have to fly in the space and build another planet well that impress you so when I hear anonymous say you know I still feel the need to prove myself but I know that I'm I'm this and I'm that and on paper I'm this and I'm that it kind of makes me ask this question is it society that's affecting anonymous and making anonymous feel like okay I still got to prove myself even though everything says this great amazing athlete do I I still have to prove myself because I'm being judged no that's interesting no I think it's I think it's our responsibility in the way that we as adults certainly it's our responsibility on how we engage in life and even if the the world is saying you're not enough you're done enough you're not enough at some level like this you that's the noise and as an adult we need to get to the signal and the signal is like what is true for me and so I think that this thing happens identity foreclosure happens when there's a young talent and it can happen to many of us though but when people are talented at a young age they foreclose on all of their potential identities all of the exploratory options they have in life and they I think the most dangerous things for like a teenager to say as we say you know uh oh no uh who are you and you say oh I'm an athlete so you foreclosed on being a musician you foreclosed on being you know a global citizen you foreclosed on being a creative you foreclosed on there's so many other things that you've already gated out and so now your entire identity is matched up on this thing that you do and the reason a young person would do that is because they're getting so much attention the the uncle says hey you got that that rival game this weekend you know like you ready for it and the teacher says hey everybody you know O'Neill just oh Neil just got back from this competition you know like the community is focusing on one party so it's easy to to get out the other so it's it it eventually becomes a a dangerous thing and I think that I can I can relate my like part of my origin stories I didn't know I was enough and so I worked my ass off like obsessively uncommonly so to to be good enough for who like it wasn't for me but it was like me trying to feel okay being okay I had to show I was smart I had to show I was competent I had to show that you know I could figure things out all those were helpful but they cost me at one level you know intimacy with myself and intimacy with my wife and so it wasn't until there was like a one point my wife said enough is enough like you're fucking gonna crash this plane to ours and so it was the greatest gift that she's given me and probably greatest gift she's given all the people I come into contact with because it forced me to touch humanity as opposed to be obsessed with performance and so I relate at some level with anonymous and I you know I think that many of us do as well however let me just add one more thing here is that I do think that we unfairly think that when somebody is extraordinary at something they're professional athlete or they're the president of an organization or the CEO or founder that they're different they're not different they're not different they are they have the same stuff that you and I have they have just been invested more deeply maybe they had some a different kind of starting place in their world but they they have the same basic needs and hopes and dreams and so to think that they're different in those ways it's a it's a safety mechanism so that you don't have to touch your humanity or to be to go deep enough to to to get down underneath the surface about who you really are and who you're working on becoming and so if you can marginalize not marginalize but if you can put them on a pedestal and think that they're just born differently and that they're not like you and me then that's a safety mechanism that you don't have to really go forward in your life because those people are the ones that but I'm not like those people. Yeah wow that makes a lot of sense that makes a lot of sense that's what I like talking talking about people in these ways because it you know makes us feel better if we can bring them down yeah right yes one thousand right but the same is true if we put them on a pedestal it still creates that that false mechanism that I don't have to go deep yeah if I can bring them down to my level starting around if I can bring them down to my level I don't have to go deep yeah and if I can keep them at a distance I don't have to go deep I never thought about it from that keep them at a distance yeah yeah wow yeah which may be talked about this later time that when you have the court when you have the raw clay you can apply it in different parts of your life like you understand the raw clay for jiu jitsu like what it takes to be great at jiu jitsu you've been doing a long time and then you can apply that same raw clay to the violin if you wanted to or entrepreneurship or relationship or whatever so like the raw clay the raw material knowing that stuff is really valuable because it translates into any activity that you want to do you teach this to athletes like professional athletes do tell them that they shouldn't foreclose on other aspects of their life like this doesn't define them like they need to explore the things I bring it up as a consideration for them like have you ever thought about it this way and most of them are like oh there's a thing yeah there's a thing you know so that's one of them and then there's really good research that when you bring up the transition conversation early in a professional athletes career that they play more freely during the time that they're in the league and they have a better transition however there is a whole subset of people when you bring up transition like what are you going to do afterball as a rookie right like you're asking a rookie that question there's a whole subset are like I don't know what we're talking about like I'm here and I'm going to love this life right now and I'm pouring into it and I'm going to be in all star and that's all I'm focused on okay so because they're afraid to like explore later because they're finally arrived at later the dream that they had when they were a kid but we know when you when you have a bit of a plan it doesn't need to even be crystal clear but ball is not forever and a bell is about three years that's it so what are you going to do after three years and when you can get people to start thinking about their future in that way they play more freely and they transition better that's a really cool insight so and that's true I think for for us that are non-impro sports as well it's like what is my three year five year ten year horizon look like you know and start thinking about it you can squint at it it doesn't need to be as crystal clear as people like to say on Instagram you do need to have a sense of direction you want to go but you can squint at it like I feel like it's kind of moving towards this direction that's it serves well that's a really interesting thing that's a really because being reared the way we've been reared we've been taught to listen just just one thing that you said you're going to do focus on it like my mom used to clown me and you say jack-of-all trades master of none yeah that was the thing she was entitled discovered this work I guess they're supposed to be more to that then you know just that phrase but um focusing on one thing was always the thing that you know I was taught like hone in you you can't have you have you have to have tone vision you can't you know put your blinders on don't look to the left don't look to the right but listening to you say this now and this new world that we live in like people are diversifying themselves like they're they're involved in this they're involved in that they're like oh just don't do one thing I do a couple things you can't define me by one thing in my in my in my generation when we grew up it was one thing it was a you can be an engineer you can be an engineer what you doing over there open up a laundry man what when did you start uh when did you start a convenience store open up a convenience store what why are you doing all of this you know so this was a legend in the fight world shared it this way do you know the name Rico Chiparelli no yes he was really early in MMA so he he framed it this way he's like um Mike you can do a lot that's what he said to me it was a nice compliment he said what is your hub like what do you mean he goes all the things that you want to do if you have a center hub then you can feed it like a spoken a wheel type of thing but what's the hub and I was like that's a really good way to think about my professional personal life like what is the center thing that I'm about and I'm trying to do and then I can fold a bunch of things in to that center thing but if it's a laundry mat and a jujitsu world championship and it's a magazine that I'm starting up and a dot com like if there's a hub and they're all about I don't know human potential that happens to remind and but they all feed into it then there's a concentration of forces but if they're all disparate it feels like it's too hard to to manage mastery of craft that takes a a deep dedication true mastery of craft and that deep dedication of mastery of craft for me is more about understanding mastery of self and so I'm not sure with a disparate focus that you will really have the opportunity to go into mastery of self and so mastery of craft is almost like this it's the opportunity for the deeper mastery of self and so there's a singular focus that is required for mastery of craft so I don't want to I don't want to just kind of brush over that that thought that was in the back of my head. Well that being said you mean through mastering a certain thing you have you make some discovery about yourself and that's what you should be focusing on as opposed to I'm mastering playing tennis or I'm mastering coding and I'm mastering this you should look at it as an opportunity to find out more about who you are. That's it. Well so that's the difference between a high performer and somebody committed to mastery. Somebody committed to mastery is equally if not more interested in mastery of self. Right and so high performance is like a standard that of output that is rewarding that's what a high performer is really about mastery is a whole different game and it's the game I'm far more interested in. Yeah because that that's so wild because I know for myself when I'm focusing on learning something I'm focusing on that something and I would wager most people think like that as opposed to what you said which is the better way like okay this is going to teach me a lot of myself. Well I think at some level it like a high performance gets boring like just getting the outcome or the output or winning it's not fulfilling enough and so there's nothing wrong with winning but when you're playing to win and playing not to lose it's substandard to playing to unlock to be free to explore potential of self and others to be in service as something far greater and so that's really what mastery is about. Yeah and people that are committed to mastery changed not only their own lives their family legacy they change a neighborhood they change a community maybe change an industry potentially the world as well. Yeah I got I just got to say this this has been the most formative AMA for me. I feel like we're all of the shop actually so that's it's fun when like my private experience is like different than your private experience. So this question is from Robert. I saw you on the Elite 11 documentary and I heard you talking about the thermostat versus thermometer analogy as applied to leadership. Love the distinction can you expand on that? No that's fun. Elite 11 is an organization that is like incredible it's the 20-some best high school quarterbacks come together to find the top 11 and it's an annual thing and it's an incredible it's incredible for a lot of reasons most importantly for me is the coaches that are there. So Super Bowl champion Trent Delfer who's on the podcast Yogi Roth who's also on the podcast handfuls of others of really great coaches come together to help pour in to the next generation quarterbacks and I think like out of the 32 teams in the league I think there's like what's the number like 22 starters came from Elite 11. I don't have the math exactly right but like it's a significant fraternity. Trent and Yogi talk about thermostat versus that's why I learned it from thermostat and thermometer and so a thermostat what a thermostat does is it reads the room and then also adjust the temperature accordingly a thermometer just reads and so that's like when you think about a leadership approach the thermostat is far greater read a room understand what's happening and then also can influence it and move it in a direction that is more optimal. We throw the phrase around be a thermostat. I don't know have you heard of this? I've never heard of it before I've never heard of it. It's cool like which do you identify with? I'm definitely I'm definitely a thermostat. I'm definitely a thermometer is what reads and adjust correct thermostat. I'm a thermostat. I like I find it challenging adjusting on the fly. I like improvising because I feel that I feel that that shows in a certain skill set and shows that you can deal with pressure. Yeah for sure and so like when you you know the thermometers in a room is that they're constantly taking the temperature and that's there's nothing wrong with it but if you're not applying that information and you're not applying those insights to move people into a state or direction that is favorable to the purpose of the mission then you're not you're not really a leader you're not leading and I need to lead and follow and I need to know when to do both and so what I'm interested in is maybe if somebody's listening is like they say okay I feel dang I feel like I'm a thermometer. Okay no problem be great at figuring out the information that is important not for you to just be okay but so that you can one day add it to the collective right and so and if you do that a bunch the thermostat if you're doing that a bunch that's a way to think about leadership and so I'm taking the temperature not so just so I'm feel safe and okay which is important to do but so that I can help us move in a direction I can set the temperature in the right way and sometimes that's like hey like we gotta go and sometimes it's like hey are we okay you know so like the the art of it is different forever for each situation to sum it up a thermometer walks into a room and reads the temperature a thermostat on the other hand walks into a room reads the temperature and then can adjust the temperature as they see fitting and so that's the that's the person that demonstrates a different type of leadership so I see and I guess that applies to relationships heavily right you want to be a thermostat in your relationships with people because you want to be like just as opposed to being like this is what it is yeah take the information be able to read it and then be able to set or move the temperature in the way that is fitting yeah and to your point like it's not about just like what serves you right it's like what's in service of the relationship what's it service of the purpose or the mission yeah going back to the relationship and the collective kind of fix it yeah not about me well since you bring it up often like what's the love life like right now man you want me on a spot here it's good it's good I mean yeah I'm yeah I'm seeing someone I'm yeah thanks oh you didn't you want to say that yeah isn't that I didn't want to say it yeah okay full disclosure here you know when you when you're on a platform like such as this man I I love watching this like it is I like yeah yeah I need to wait before you yeah you yourself grooming that's always a tell us there yeah you want to make sure you don't say the wrong things or say too much and you're just like I'm good these are well yes yeah love life is good yeah so you're you're not in a place where it's like it's chaotic there's lots of tension no no you know what I um I'm I'm really trying to and I and I realized that any chaos or any tension that's created is coming from me whether I'm accepting it or I'm creating it so I'm really trying to uh watch myself and be you know laugh they're a mistake yeah okay in the relationship in the relationship take the temperature take the temperature be able to set it in a way that's in service of the relationship yeah let's go or or are we okay are we okay we're okay yeah how are we doing yeah right a lot from you doctor Mike yeah yeah one of the basic needs that all humans have is to know that they matter to be seen to belong and we are wired to be social creatures we're masquerading as if we are individual contributors but we're we are networked and wired to be part of a system to be in relationship with with each other and so when we give that gift to another person and we're just like how are you and so and it's not like a throwaway comment but it's like no no seriously how are you how was it day what'd you do what was it like for you and you're really interested about their experience man that goes a long way that's so funny because I have this conversation just the other day about being in you know in service and being connected somewhere you can't be by yourself why you need you need people the interesting thing wait you're saying that you need people not like as in like you're not an island unto yourself all right yeah we we need people we need people I created a another persona to protect my true persona right so my true persona is that I love engaging with people I love to give love I love to to to to to to to to be is engaging and is caring and is giving as I possibly can you're romantic I wouldn't say I go with Doug oh yeah what is it like when you're in that kind of sweeping giving connected state feels amazing it is it feels amazing but the issue that I have found is that the world sometimes isn't so receiving of that right so maybe from my childhood or somebody young adult experiences you get burned in some way whether you you you you act a certain way and it's not a reciprocated right and then you say okay well you know what I'm going to create this for me I created a persona to protect my inner child so to speak you know a former girlfriend said this to me like you just created this persona to protect your inner child and whenever you feel like your inner child is being threatened this persona activates and it comes out with its sword and shield and it gets the chopping away and whatnot not considering what's going on that's like and and I would assume other people have that issue too like they want to be loving caring hugging people but they're like man it's a cold world out there so I gotta I gotta put my arm around I just gotta go out there and you you have to drop your arm or first then I'll show you how I really am what you're talking about right there is like thermometer versus thermostat as well which is being able to understand what what the how the room impacts you and how you're impacting the room how the relationship is impacting you and how you're impacting relationship and I'm not in my head to everything that you're saying because I think that that's a universal truth and then it begs the question Einstein said that we all have a fundamental question we need to answer is the world hostile or safe and so how do you how do you land on that question gosh the world is hostile yeah I do too yeah I think it's a dangerous world I think the universe is trying to rip itself apart literally the cosmos and there's so much pain that there's and there's bad actors in this world and so one bad actor can with lots of power can do great damage one bad actor in a family somebody that's in an incredible pain that is really suffering and selfishly is just trying to fill their pain they can do they can do a lot of damage and so I think the world's fundamental I wouldn't have said it 15 years ago I thought now the world is safe like I just don't see it that way um so I feel safe though in a hostile world how about that you are you asking me do I feel safe in the last hour no I just said that I feel safe in a hostile world okay well you said how about that I'll say I thought you man um yeah what about you um I do but only because I've created this alter ego or this thing to protect me I think what you just described like we're all doing at some level and the the fact that you've created a way to be safe to be okay to be able to settle into a moment knowing that you've got backup from the night the night in Rusty Armor potentially the book that we talked about earlier like but you've got this other part of you that can take care of another part of you that's awesome like I I don't know if I would like separate them out you know in the next version of you as you're growing like it's all it's all it's all of you you you created this you have figured out a way for you to be safe and I wish that for everybody I don't I don't wish that if your ex was talking about like sometimes you destructively thrash when you're scared like that's not great but um it's cool it's really cool I definitely don't destructively crash you don't thrash right thrash when I'm scared yeah I don't know where she got that oh yeah that's a that's my sense okay good glad I was a mistake too okay all right so Latu has a question here I've been driving hard for the past 20 years of my career I like to think I've taken the same approach to digging in and understanding myself sometimes though I step back and this all seems like a race to nowhere a performance treadmill a self development game I'm fascinated by the idea of not striving and simplifying life appreciating what it is right now rather than uh what it or I could be we're here so briefly is this how we should spend our precious moments any thoughts Dr. Mike when I hear the question I hear the tension between being and becoming I hear the tension between straining and striving to be oneself and being okay with exactly what is now I think this is confusing I think this is hard to understand um at a deep rich level because and it might be one of the more confusing things in this industry of self-help which you know I have a rash when even saying that self-help word out loud but this is complicated because there is a tension that work needs to be done to develop the capabilities and skills to be fully present as we develop in the world as a youngster let's call it like in the early ages when we're born we're just brilliantly perfect but we we need to rely on somebody else to take care of us we don't have everything we need and as we start to develop some independence there's a transferring of there's a baton passing of philosophy and wisdoms and skills and resources to be able to manage ourselves um without the nest outside of the nest most of us I include me included in that need to continue to develop the skills so that I can be fully present more consistently call that enlightenment if you will the path of enlightenment okay there's very few that have experienced that and they've changed the world I don't see the answer of just kicking up my feet on a beach somewhere and you know drink and beer and fishing and like just like I don't know not not understanding um what I'm capable of so there's this tension between investing relentlessly on commonly so to be better but if you can slightly create a twist here that the commitment is to develop the skills so that you can be fully present why be fully present so you get to the truth of whatever is happening and if you don't have the skills to be fully present you're not really working from a place of truth so if you're not working from a place of truth meaning that um the unfolding present moment it is what allows us to get to the true nature of whatever is uh you you said something maybe just look at what she's just said but about simplifying life yeah so this is about simplifying life is to to invest deeply in in your internal skills to be fully present so that you can get to the truth of something when you string together enough of those truths or those insights or those ahas then you get to wisdom and now life is really simple because you're working from a much richer place so there is the straining to be able to get to that place um the false idol is the straining the high performance treadmill as the question says to relentlessly being on that exhaustingly high performing treadmill for an external outcome that is it's not gonna it's not gonna fill the void it's not gonna fill the gap and so yeah it's the carrot that is dangling out there that you'll be better later with a metal or money or something else i'm i want all those two but that's not the false god the the thing that i'm more interested in is develop those capabilities so i can be fully present in a conversation with you and a conversation with anybody at whatever task i am at hand to do that more fully gaining that simplification right in the pursuit like Latua saying while in the pursuit while being on this treadmill and being overwhelmed that carrot dangling and you chasing it to to to hear that you know okay this is not how you gain simplification and this is not how you attain it is is one thing but to actually slow down i'm assuming i could be wrong here but i'm assuming working that hard and being on the treadmill and turning it up and running after that carrot means you you may feel somewhat behind or that something you're gonna miss something or that's a good insight yeah i didn't go there that's a good insight keep going so so you feel like you may miss an opportunity or you're behind how do you convince yourself how do you sway yourself to say okay let me turn this treadmill down a little bit let me trust that that i'll get into this zone in simplification or enlightenment or what what have you will will come i'll gain this through the trust and belief that it'll happen as opposed to me like oh i got to go i turn it up to nine miles an hour i go do do do do do do do do do do you know because that that's for myself and i'm speaking from experience for myself that's that's what happens to me when i get overwhelmed i'm like okay i got to go with it the alarm went off the keyboard basically take shower it's a musical you're going and you're hoping at some point it'll start to even out and you're like one day yeah but when i hear you describe that i can see myself in that as well um much more when i was younger than now and that doesn't mean i'm not like legitimately grinding and have moments where i feel overwhelmed now like that that's still the case for me i'm just now it's i'm more clear why i'm doing the work so i'm doing the work again i don't know another way to say it i'm doing my internal work so that can be more present the business side of it or the other things that i'm doing that hopefully you're making money and doing good in the world it is a mechanism it's like mastery of business let's call it or mastery of craft if we're an athlete in service of mastery of self and so there's this line alignment i have in my life that hopefully everything that i'm doing is lining up for me to understand and to share and to learn from other people how to develop the skills to be more fully present and so that it's not like that that thing happens later the present thing where i think right now you and i are fully present if you were if your confidence was really low or your attention was struggling because you hadn't trained it or you hadn't trained your confidence or you hadn't taken care of like some basic things like you drank too much and you're and you know you're emotionally drank too much last night or drank anything last night you're emotionally foggy or you hadn't eaten and your body is like screaming at you that you need to go feed itself whatever those distractors might be for you being fully present we got to care that stuff so we can get to this moment and be in this moment and this one and this one and this one and this one and this one that's that's the gift that's where the unlock happens so it's not like later when i have the big house big car big watch it's not that it's this moment and seeing how many in our 16 hours that we're awake how many moments can we string together and that's when by definition everything slows down it's a bit like the runners high is that we train at a at a intense strained clip so we can build the capacity so that when we when we drop it down just one notch we can find a runner's high okay if we don't train at a high clip a strained clip we can't run long enough at a fast enough pace to find the runner's high i think the the storyline or not the storyline but the parallel holds up is that we have to work to trust and slow down just a little bit to find the present moment stringing together and so there's a there's a parallel there that that might hold up as well this has been amazing this has been really informative for me like super informative out yeah i think i needed this oh that's cool oh no i the way that you show up grounded the curious intense honest i appreciate you know each time we get to hang with each other and the way that i feel around you so i appreciate that and i really appreciate the questions that come in from folks and so our community has switched on and they're on it these questions yeah are hard yeah these are not easy questions yeah and so i know they're drilling down to the truth of as well you know the questions are obviously you know things that myself you know i've experienced in life or i am experiencing now so i feel like through them asking you and you know i'm growing from this as well so i appreciate you having me on it's an amazing experience let's do more yeah let's definitely do more all right good sure come in all right thank you so much for diving into another episodifying mastery with us our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you we really appreciate you being part of this community and if you're enjoying the show the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening also if you haven't already please consider dropping us a review on apple or Spotify we are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback if you're looking for even more insights we have a newsletter we send out every Wednesday punch over to finding mastery.com slash newsletter to sign up this show wouldn't be possible without our sponsors and we take our recommendation seriously and the team is very thoughtful about making sure we love and endorse every product you hear on the show if you want 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