Push Beyond Your Limits: Top Big Wave Surfer on The Art of Challenging the Unknown | Kai Lenny

I hold myself, I think, to the highest standard, and I know my imagination goes, runs so deep because I've been working on it my whole life, and a lot of people hadn't tapped into that side of them, you know, because to them the best is being better than the next guy. But in my mind, the potential I know that I could reach is stuff that no one's ever done, and it's unimaginable. Okay, welcome back. We're welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I'm your host Dr. Michael Jervé by trade in training a high performance psychologist, and I am so stoked to welcome Kyle Lenny back to the podcast for this week's conversation. What's the quality of life if you're not exploring your edges, you're not taking risks to grow? And on the other hand, what if you've designed your life to risk everything? Professional server and world class expert on risk, Kyle has somehow found true freedom in the powerlessness that comes with confronting what a mother nature's most spectacular monsters, the big wave, now known as one of, if not the best big wave surfers in the world, he started surfing at age four, and since has racked up a substantial list of world class honors. And in multiple sports that require operating in consequential environments, Kyle has cultivated a masterful approach to mindset. Kyle has a master of craft with a passion for quote unquote always getting better at something. He has so many incredible insights on staying motivated, adaptable and innovative, all in the face of radical risk and relentless unknowns, something I believe we can all apply in our own lives. So with that, let's jump right into this week's conversation with Kyle Lenny. Okay, I want to start with this really big and broad question, which, you know, you've got insights and experiences and stories to share that are really uncommon. Like you live in uncommon life in so many ways, but I want to try to make this bridge between you surfing some of the heaviest waves and most consequential waves in the world to like this, the everyday person that might not ever get in the ocean let alone surf at any consequential wave. So what do you hope people listening can learn from you and the way that you've approached your life? I think the takeaway from riding big waves has always been challenging yourself to the unknown. You know, when you ride big waves, you constantly are experiencing kind of a new experience every time you hit the water. Even if you return to an existing surf spot, big wave surfing is just so unpredictable. And it's having, it's kind of gaining the courage, but the confidence through the experience of doing something in the unknown, something that you haven't personally been through yet, is that I feel like biggest growth sort of happens. And that's been my draw to big waves is it is a fun combination of not only athleticism, but innovation, and then meets sort of opportunity. You know, you can't just go out and get a big wave on any given Sunday. It really tends to happen five or six times per year if you're lucky, where you're in truly exceptional conditions. And even then sometimes the best swell of your entire lifetime comes in and might be the last time you ever experienced something like that. And so being mentally, physically prepared, that's on the performance side. And then, you know, thinking outside the box, working on the equipment, working on the details of the session you're going to have, but then also being able to be sort of able to adapt, being adaptable to anything that's thrown towards you, that's sort of that unpredictability of the surf. And everything I've learned doing big waves is totally translated to how I approach my daily life, how I could be more efficient in what I'm doing, you know, when to push really hard and when to back off, you know, because life is all about sort of timing too. Most successful people end up becoming really successful because they either get lucky with their timing or they're, you know, smart enough to position themselves at the right place at the right time. And that's like trying to catch a big wave. You know, there's so much more that goes into just writing a big wave. It's, it starts, you know, days, if not weeks, if not years before where I almost like a couple of weeks before I might be able to predict the exact moment, the biggest part of the swell is going to hit this spot. And, you know, thanks to so much technology out in the ocean. As a surfer, you naturally become a meteorologist, you're constantly looking at the weather maps, you're constantly trying to understand how waves move, all the sort of different, you know, ways you can measure waves, you know, from the vertical sea height to the interval between the waves to even the force at the waves creating, you know, commonly measured in jewels. And so those things and then the timing of when it's hitting buoys or hitting other places, you can sort of predict down to at least the every half hour exactly when it's going to be larger. So that's, that's like the fun part too. And, you know, you can't help it, but crossover into other facets of life. Okay, what I hear in there is like big general themes is it's about figuring out how to deal with unknown conditions. It's about figuring out how to deal with fear. Maybe of, of those unknown conditions, but also of the presenting conditions when the information or the experience is not going according to plan and it's dangerous. So it's like the anxiety before of the unknown, it's the fear during when it's not going according to plan. And then I hear you talking about the need to adapt and then when to push, when to back off, when to adjust, which I think is in and of itself in a very important psychological condition. And then the preparation required to be able to deal with the fear and to be able to adjust and adapt. Does this sound right so far? Oh, yeah. I mean, spot on. And that's the interesting thing is the themes that you just mentioned. It's so common across all walks of life. And, you know, if you're, it's like, what makes a really good story is sort of that kind of the mythological structure, sort of the hero's journey, right? Of a movie, but it's like the action or that CGI that everyone's seeing or the kind of the coloring of the story for me, big wave surfing is sort of just the coloring of, I would say the most extreme version of these themes, you know, where there are like life and death consequences, of course, but it's just, they're just elevated versions of what most people might experience daily, but not realize that's what their sort of experience, like trying to describe a color to somebody is like pretty difficult if they've ever seen it before. And once you make people aware of it, you know, you're like, oh, I could see the, the commonality and kind of the crossover of it all. So everybody has their own experience here with what we're talking about, but not everyone serves waves, but like if let's talk about the waves in general, like everyone has their own wave that they're trying to be connected to, that they're trying to surf well. And it's totally the biggest tallest ones that we're talking about. But like when you think about that crosswalk from literal huge waves into the everyday waves, what are some of the everyday things that you're, that you pucker up when it comes to like the unknown or you have fear with or it challenges you to adjust well, like that you're preparing for in return. Like what are some of those for you? Well, no doubt. I think just having my twin daughters set in Willa has been like kind of that that unknown, you know, like every time you seem to like figure out a routine, you know, get them down to sleep or, you know, fun activities. They grow so fast that it's like this constant thing of like being able to adapt and it's scary being a parent sometimes because you love your kids so much and you want the best for them and then you have to know when to be very attentive and then you also need to let them experience and learn things on their own. You know, it's okay to make mistakes if you can just get back up from that and, you know, granted my kids aren't very old yet, you know, they're not even the one and a half yet. But every single day is like kind of a new challenge and, you know, it's like how can I best set up myself to, you know, help them manage being a father of a family and then at the same time, how can you sort of like be there and be there for them, but allow them to, you know, fall down, okay, get back up, you know, it's like they have to sort of learn things on their own. So it's, it's like that in a whole is like the ultimate challenge and it's an unknown thing because no, there's no rule. People have written books about being parents, but until you are a parent yourself, you don't know, the kids are almost teaching you and what you need to learn. And so anything that I ever learned from the ocean is directly applied to my kids. And the great thing is with having my kids recently, like I've become way more calculated, way more methodical, not only in the water, but also on land and how I prepare for these swells, like I'm so much more detailed oriented now. And when the big day does come, I can kind of relax and let go. And, you know, in some way, I'm learning a lot from my kids, just being a parent. And that's, that's really exciting. I'm going to pause the conversation here for just a few minutes to talk about our sponsors, finding masters brought to you by natural stacks. Your brain is one of the hungriest organs in your body. It consumes roughly 20% of your energy every day. 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I want to talk about the inside about mistakes and then something changed and you're different now that you've got kids. I want to unlock that a little bit. The first part you said, you want to encourage them or some form of that to make mistakes. Mistakes are okay as long as you can get up from them. Okay, so that's a really interesting nuance and insight. Help me understand. What does that mean? Well, I mean, it's not like you're encouraging them to make mistakes. But one thing is for certain everyone's going to make mistakes long away. You know, it's not even like bad mistakes in terms of like doing something maliciously bad sort of thing. Just, you know, maybe you don't have all the information and hindsight's 2020 and you're like, oh, if I could have, I could have gone back and done this a little different. But sometimes you're maybe you haven't processed everything that you need to to make the most informed decision. And, you know, as a kid growing up, it's, you know, the mistakes are maybe I shouldn't touch that because it's hot or, you know, that grass is really itchy when I lay on it. You know, it's something simple like that or, you know, maybe I shouldn't bite my sister. It's stuff little things like that. It's it's like. I don't know. I just think that as long as you learn from it and you come away better, you're just going to keep bail to climb that ladder to greater success to being better. And most people, I think, experience something called resistance, which is like the fear of actually just taking the first step and doing something and then resistance being, I made this mistake once I'll never be in that position again. But in order to get to that next level or that next step, you sort of have to allow yourself to be in a position to make another mistake. And, you know, with a more informed decision, maybe with hindsight, you could actually, you know, make the right call and, you know, it's growth. So if you're not, you know, if you're not making mistakes like in my field of stuff, if I'm not falling on a big wave every once in a while, I'm probably not pushing hard enough. But I train so I can handle those falls and it's scary at first, but in order to get the best out of me, I got to be able to ride without fear sort of thing. And in order to ride without fear, you sort of have to experience the unknown a little bit. And that's a mistake from turning on the wrong part of the wave and falling, you know. Yeah, for sure. Do you have an experience in your life where you made a mistake and you weren't sure if you were going to be able to get up? Hmm. Not necessarily. I feel like I was always taught for my parents, you know, to just learn from my mistakes, and to always make right by them regardless of what it is. And I think, and I've always had this kind of, and maybe my strength and my weakness is being a perfectionist. So, you know, as I've grown up, I've learned how to like utilize being a perfectionist to help me get to where I want to go. But then I've also learned how to sort of be able to let go. Because if you hang on or cling to something too long, it's, you're going to stall and you're going to be stuck or maybe, you know, like riding a wave, you can't force anything. You kind of got to let go of everything around you and just be in the moment and allow things to happen. And without consciously thinking of what you have to do, you just naturally sort of do it. So it's about doing the homework before. And then that leads into the now where you don't, it's like subconscious at that point. And, you know, I think the biggest battle I ever fought with myself was just, you know, allowing myself to let go, being such a perfectionist would in some ways help me a lot, but then hold me back. Because you'd get stuck on something when it was time to just move on. There was a concrete moment that I watched, you know, you lived it. It was a hold down that you had at Nazare. And did you not think there that you might not get up, even from a heavy held down like that, or maybe there's another hold down that you can bring me into. No, I've never experienced knock on wood. I've never experienced a wipe out or a situation in the orange of the ocean where I didn't think I was going to be okay from. Like I've always kind of had this confidence that I don't know how to pull it off, but like I'm going to be fine. You know, like I'll find it up in the middle of the ocean. My first thought wouldn't be just give up and float there. It would probably be. Swim is efficiently and as mellow as I could and just keep on swimming, you know, until I got back to shore. And big waves being held underwater. No, it's a very real fear that, you know, you might not come up. But at the same time, I've never been in a position where I was like, wow, this is it. I could kind of like, I can't go any longer. It was always like, oh, I'm in this inconvenient situation right now. As soon as I get up, I'm going to take a break. No one can convince me to go back out. I'm going to eat a burrito and I'm going to just sit on this boat or jet ski and just chill and I'm good. I'm good, you know, it's like kind of like a mild. It's kind of like it's just an inconvenient. Yeah, like sort of moment. And then I usually come back up. And I get on the jet ski and we drive towards the channel and I'm like, oh no, just take me back out. You know, usually the motivation and the goal outweighs the, I guess that experience. I'm like, well, I just want to make that mistake again, sort of thing. And again, I put so much effort into training every single day for these scenarios that is partially why I've been able to handle certain experiences and not, you know, feel like I was going to die and not to say that that can't happen. I mean, you know, the best is the best of experience that. And I don't think it's a matter of time. If I'm, you know, smart and calculated enough and I learned from my mistakes. I think it's just wrong place, wrong time. It just can happen. But I know a lot of big wave riders who've had, you know, tremendous experiences and horrible white belts, but have never, you know, faced something like, you know, thinking they're actually going to die. But again, I'm in a different area of big wave surfing now. Technology has been so useful and so helpful, but I trained like I wouldn't have any of those things. If I wasn't attached to a board, if I didn't have an inflatable vest, if I didn't, you know, even have the foam on my wetsuit to help me bring, bring me to the surface. You know, it's like, there's one, there's taking the elevator to the top of the skyscraper and then there's taking the stairs. I need to take the stairs, but I always take the elevator when I'm in, in those conditions. And that way I can retain my energy and focus on my performance and not focus on the surviving part. Because as a surviving part, I can do. It's just sort of, you know, putting all that into the performance that. That'll allow me to ride better, but it's always in the back. You know, it's always kind of like easily unlockable. You are one of the, if not the best big wave surfers in the world, and I don't say that lightly. Like the things you're doing on waves, the rest of the community is like, how? Like, are you kidding me? And so, so you've got your respect from your peers, you're an innovator, you're right on the knife's edge. It's beautiful to see what you're doing for your family, yourself and the community at large. What, what is holding you back? What are the things that get in the way of you continuing to progress the way that you want? I would say, you know, most of that stuff I've sort of been able to work through. I would say the hardest part right now is actually, because it's almost impossible to be everywhere all at once, you know. It's impossible to see someplace and not necessarily be there and be like not having foam, you know, the fear of missing out. I say it's like, it's good to have a little bit of that because then it's like, okay, I want to go there and I want to do it like that way or better, you know. That's one thing like right now, it's like hard to be everywhere all at once and not letting you feel like you're behind sort of thing. It's sort of like a competition who can ride the most big waves necessarily. And when it comes to like actually riding the big waves, you know, I really have been looking outside of my own sort of kind of community of surfers in a way. I've been looking at other places to get inspiration for riding big waves. One of those inspirations is like Travis writes up in Alaska and recently I went up there with Travis and got to experience in person what it was like to be in the scenarios he is doing. And that would open my kind of my mind to what is even more possible than what I was just imagining because I actually got to see it in person. I got to see the master himself in these mountains and I got to experience some of that myself too. But a lot of times like I don't really ever feel like I feel like my potential in big waves is way greater than where I'm at now. Like I don't even feel close to what I could I in my own imagination and my own visualization. I could be 10 times an hour later, you know, and I know it. But there's like kind of like a process to it, you know, it's sometimes you just kind of got to, you know, take baby steps in order to get to where you want to go because you all send you end up in the moment and it's so intense. You might freeze up a little bit, but it does make what I already do feel easy like what I'm already doing now feels easy. And I'm just trying to think of how could I make it not like harder on myself, but the experience of flipping and doing these rotations and committing to these big waves and the lines I want to draw. It's that little feeling that little moment in between all of that that feels so freeing and alive. You know, like I feel alive when I'm like the chains or the I'm unbridled like I'm I'm I can just throw throw things in heavy consequential situations and have it come out and it's like I have that control to do that, you know what I mean. That insight in a world where people are fatigued from stress and anxiety and a relenting pace at work and 24 by seven global economy like there's a fatigue in our humanity that is I mean it's dangerous right like this is not a vibrant way to do life the way most people are living. Okay, so so you said something that's really important, which is like I'm designing my life to go go to the heart. And because I know if I do that, then I can and I get better, I get some unlocks, I get more familiar, I learn, then I get this feeling of freedom, this unbridled, unharmed freedom. Oh, absolutely, you know, it's like I do like what I do love about being in the water is you do I feel in some ways like I'm stepping outside of society's bubble and even the cops can't get me out in the water. I mean like I feel like it's a my domain is because I've spent of course so much time in the water doing it, but it's like it's just that feeling of being like that freedom of course and then when you're trying to do something, but you're also trying to do it and try to get maybe the satisfaction of others or kind of like wow that's sick you know and surfing and you know this so well is that there's what's considered core and what's considered not core. And sometimes what's considered core I question i'm like that's that's how is that any cooler than doing it this way you know what I mean and it's just this kind of tribal maybe herd mentality like well he thinks it's cool so i'm going to think it's cool and then everyone just thinks it's cool. And that can hold you back on how you approach a wave because it's like if you're not grabbing real and a backside barrel and leaning your body in this way, then you're not really bear riding but then I watch someone like a mason ho and for people who've never heard of them his surfing is really unique and completely like you could tell he's not he's not held down by what is correct surfing you know and that's the whole point of surfing is it's your own expression. expression on this canvas you're the paintbrush sort of thing and he'll grab the rail with his front arm called slob grab and he'll put his back on there and it's not a traditional technique whatsoever but it just to me always looks so visually stunning because it's his own expression and it's not like wow I looked just like Kelly Slater or Andy Irons or somebody it's no that looks like mason ho and it's mason ho doing it you know so it's it's I try to really like. pull myself back to like what would feel really good and what would what do I think look cool before I even consider what is cool you know or what is like the right way to do it because of course there's certain techniques you know it's like surfing you want your back leg tucked in and that gives you this control to the surfboard and kind of sucks you down like bad technique would be having your knee bowed out kind of like a cowboy but that is like super basic sort of thing. boards like the expression part is like where you put your arms you know mason ho's body is still positioned in the way of the proper technical way you would have it this way but he's holding this way because he's. he's allowed himself to be leko and and have that freedom to like express his body posture a little different even though technically he's still. he's doing everything right to achieve that position but he's not trying to mimic anyone else but his own and in big waves it's like you have to have this sort of stance and you know you got to take this sort of line it's like to me i'm like no like. you know the rule of thumb and surfings like unless you're hitting the lip you're not doing an air um if you're hitting a chop it's called a chop hop and chop pops are like kid novelty like kind of frowned upon sort of thing like not considered like legit maneuvers i'm like what's a different playing field when you're on a 50 foot wave because. that chop is six feet tall and I look at snowboarding and they're hating they're not turning back up the mountain and hitting the mountain sort of thing they're hitting ledges and using everything on that mountain face to do a maneuver and granted they might actually hit a real legit ramp at one point but they're using little features to do things and that's their expression on this mountain and. for me and big waves i'm like why just go straight over this chop when I can just 360 over it and you know it doesn't change the rest of my wave except it's just this. out of the pocket maneuver and you know before I like always just doing chop pops i'm like you do a chop off on a 60 foot wave like there's that really cool moment when you're rotating. and you look back at a 60 foot wave and you're looking back at the lift there's like only a brief moment where you see it and then you're back pointed forward so. i'm getting a perspective review of the wave that no one writing big wave will ever see because they're only looking forward but for a second i'm seeing the wave face on and i'm making that I keep on going you know and. and that's my expression sort of thing so it's not. not letting my surfing or my writing in any sport be dictated what people thinks right or wrong sort of thing I think you just focus on what fundamentally. on a technical basis will allow you to do those things which is. you know the the foundation of what makes good serving and then everything on top of that just your expression. i'm going to pause the conversation here for just a few minutes to talk about our sponsors finding mastery is brought to you by ice barrel. recovery is one of the most overlooked and essential staples of consistently performing. toward our upper limits of our potential of course you've heard of the benefits of cold therapy and. ice barrel might be a solution that's a good fit for you it's a cold therapy tool that offers an easy way to bring ice baths to the convenience of your home. basically wherever you want to bring it ice barrel makes cold therapy easy and portable and convenient and accessible to everyone could be in your garage could be in your backyard. could even be on your balcony all you have to do to get started is fill the water and ice and i've been using cold therapy for a long time the glow that I feel after. it's remarkable after I get out i'm definitely switched on my brain is fully alert my mind is on my mood is epic. there's just an aliveness in it's it's amazing when i'm in it I drop into my breathing training at the same time. 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Jive dot com slash finding mastery and there are some exclusions that do apply and with that let's jump right back into our conversation I know that 99% of people listening won't understand the technical jargon of what you're talking about but right underneath the surface is the psychological framing coming from a master. Like how much of my environment can I use to create and innovate something that is unique to me but still is traditionally grounded in the basics thank you for that and I'm going to I need to play that back a few times to really rock like how you just did that but you're pulling variable bits of information and innovating in ways that are unique to you and staying grounded. To the the base colors of the canvas that you're creating or painting on I love that how much how much of your mind is attending to fear of what other people might think of you. I'd say the natural draw to it is like pretty significant just because there's like the job that I do do is sort of comparison in a way you know it's if I was just had all the money in the world and I would still be living my exact same life right now but I wouldn't have like sponsors to make happy or I wouldn't need the support of the community to see value for my sponsors for me because I have such a good following and people enjoy what I do I get to have make it my job right and and so there's like it's like what's going to be like you sort of definitely you know I'm guilty of sort of leaning into like what other people are doing or you know what I'm like what I think people want to see when in the reality I'm pretty sure everyone that does enjoy really following me just like to see what I'm doing you know it's it's like probably getting overly analytical and being too much like what you know how can I beat better and instead of um thinking outside the box and working on something else that might help supplement it sometimes you can like it's like doing a sort of a workout I'm going to get better at this one workout and you've done so many times you're used to it and at a certain point you almost have to do a completely other style of training because it's going to be super hard and new and and so that's kind of like in a little bit of a way trying to explain um you know not getting caught up on one sort of thing and so when I do I feel like my best riding my biggest innovations come when I'm able to separate myself from trying to impress others or trying to do what I think maybe people I look up to or people that have inspired me with think you know and I think that's just a natural draw that everyone sort of has and whether you read into it a lot or not is one thing I think it's okay to I think it's good to be aware of it because it kind of like is it's an easy measuring stick to just see where you line up but then you move away and you know I have a lot of friends who don't even care and they're just out doing their own thing and it's awesome but I do see a lot of opportunity in like just having a conversation with you right now like already got my mind thinking a certain way and oh I'm going to do something a little bit different after this because I just picked something up so I love that aspect of seeing what other people are doing and being like I can do that too you know the competitive side of it it's really good because sometimes that just leads me on to something else because I combine my you know imagination with what I've seen it's like well if you do that and then it goes to this you know it's I don't think black and white doesn't exist I think there's many shades of gray and black and white there's many shades of gray in between and it's just you know even the water sports that I've innovated or I'm trying to innovate over like invent I'm always looking for the gray area that I could see have the most potential for growth but that comes from being able to identify two different sports and then see like okay have that why in there it's like high performance can I do these two different sports but what if I put these sports in this particular condition which is in between these two sports that are at their best there's a gray area and then it's like wait what if I do this and that and I change my equipment there now I have something that's high performance because nothing in this gray area was high performance enough for me you know it wasn't fast enough it wasn't big enough air as it wasn't you know it wasn't my artistic expression that I could do it's slow it's maybe lazy for me so that's the same way I sort of can think about in comparison to others you know it's like use it as fuel but at the same time I know I stick to what my imagination is sort of telling me that's what's up okay slight pivot here there was in our in our early conversation in 2016 I mean seven years have gone by it's amazing this is what you said though at 22 age 22 I almost feel like I hit a roadblock I love what I'm doing deeply but I need a goal that if I won or if I achieved it I would feel like it was something that I didn't think was possible I've achieved so much at a young age that it's like kind of this anxiety like God I need some purpose I need to feel some purpose when you hear that now still the same as it totally I mean I think I think the when I feel like I have a real purpose in front of me any anxiety goes away fear of death you know longevity of life all this like normal human traits to be kind of worried about just completely disappeared and I'm living in the moment and you know the way we perceive time I've always sort of now I sort of believe that time happens all at once and it's just the way we're sort of perceiving it you know and and sometimes time moves really fast when maybe you're too focused on something and things are just going by like in a blink of an eye like you're too you're not aware of your surroundings enough but sometimes when you're too like I'd imagine if you're like you know when I'm on an airplane and I'm like frustrated I'm on an airplane eight hours feels like a long time but when I'm at home eight hours goes by that quick that's so much going on right and I think obviously when you have kids it's a purpose that is indescribable no one you don't know until you have kids of your own what it's like to have a true purpose like for me you know I would never was sort of worried about dying because I'm like gosh it's like surfing big waves you know it's like you know if it happens it happens if it doesn't it's like I'm going to keep going but when you have kids it's like for me it's like gosh I want to see their story unfold I want to be here as much as I can and there that purpose with them gives you this dad strength or mom strength that is like unrivaled and I think that's why if I was underwater I wouldn't be if I was ever in a scenario where I thought I was going to drown I it's it's easy to give up on yourself but it's hard to give up on people that you really love for me I wouldn't be fighting to get up necessarily just to save me but to be with my kids selfishly I just would want to be with them and hanging out and and see their story evolve and now I'm going I'm growing up with them again you know it's like a second it's it is really a rebirth when you have kids you know because you get to experience growing up again from a completely different perspective finding purpose I've just begun really good at you know always having things to chase after in my own sort of sport like you know I'd say the landscape being a professional athlete shifted from okay sponsors are there for you because you're competing and you're really successful at competitions now it's gone so media based social media movies TV whatever basically trying to create you have to now create something and for me I'd rather just be competing but there's no competition except for a select few that you can do and it's not frequent enough in at a current place I am with my life I have so much opportunity to you know create new waves of riding waves and then challenge myself against these giant waves it's almost become I'm almost creating my own world tour that I'm competing on and I'm competing against myself I'm competing against mother nature you know you're never going to defeat mother nature but you can get at times match power with power for a moment you know like being complete harmony with that chaos of a big wave and and so that's my competition sort of thing and if there's a competition that comes up I'll answer it and that is a totally like human controlled like okay you know you're not competing to be the best you you're competing to impress the judges and it's a completely different approach to your expression because the judges are looking for a look you know they're looking for a style they're looking for all these sort of things so you're trying to impress the judges and that's why most people don't win competitions much because they're like I'm going to do it my way and it's like yeah if you want to play the game and you want to win world titles you've got to figure out exactly what the judges are looking for and you got to surf for the judges you know you have to be you you kind of you it's not necessarily your own expression of what you think looks good that's going to get you it's going it's going to be how can I wow the judges the most and I may not like riding this way particularly I'm going to do it. Particularly but this is a way that they want to that they're going to reward me the most and so the most some of the most freeing part of all of this was not having you know the competitions to be in and then to basically go out there and have it documented so I can keep my sponsorships but at the same time you know kind of just lean into what I think that what I think looks the best what for me feels the best are you trying to be your best or the best which one I think if I'm at my best I'm at the best that's just my perspective on that yeah humbly said and agreed the reason why to I mean just to explain that answer it's the reason why is because I hold myself I think to the highest standard and even and I know my imagination goes runs to be because I've been working on it my whole life and a lot of people haven't tapped into that side of them you know because to them the best is being better than the next guy but in my mind the potential I know that I could reach is stuff that no one's ever done and it's unimaginable and it's all unimaginable until it's actually done so if I could be my my best the what I know I could be in my head then there's just no conversation and I'm not saying I'm there yet but what I what I do know is that in the sports that I choose to do in in any field I choose to be in I I can understand okay this is the current best where where it what is actually possible like this is where we've reached so far in a physical aspect but like mentally you know you know this is where we could actually go and so if I can achieve that then you know at least in my own heart I know that I'm the best in the world and I don't say need to be told that I am you know because I'm at the end of the year you are competing at yourself even in competition you know you got to serve the judges but if I'm at my best in a competition especially in big waves I feel like it's mine to lose and that's just how I feel you know deep down and in big waves if you don't ride if you don't have the wave you're not going to win so there is a luck involved to it so that's it's just it makes it exciting you know I'm going to use this word provocatively not insensitively but totally much much of the world thinks that you're crazy what you do is absolutely at the edge of sanity and I just want to know how you respond to that um you know it's just almost seems like and not to be provocative with this but it seems like a joke sort of thing because to me I feel completely normal you know like I feel I feel like I know a lot more people that do the same thing that I do that may in fact be unhinged but for me I just feel like the only reason why it seems crazy is because you know something what I do is so far removed from how they live their lives and I think if they grew up the way that I grew up and in the conditions that I've spent so much time it's just the natural progression you know there's nothing that's reckless about it it's like very methodically you know approached and thought out to me I would say it's crazy I mean how do you run a billion dollar business for example you know what I mean like that's crazy you know it's like it's someone's always going to think it's something's crazy that they're not I would say really informed on or if they're not actually doing it themselves because it just seems like such a massive mountain to climb um and uh and so yeah I don't know I feel completely like a normal person I think my advantage is kind of like my you know undying support for myself you know like I when I was a kid I always told myself I I will never like quit the only time I will kind of like let something sort of go is because it's like okay you're now you're beating your hand against a brick wall and it's like why not take a step back and realize you can actually just walk around the brick wall you know um and it might take that reset but like you know kind of quitting just a quick because it's too hard is never an option it's just kind of like taking a step back and that's how baby steps have always been my approach and everything that I do and um it all sort of adds up and now the baby steps look really big to everyone else but it was always that natural sort of progression and I've just been doing a natural progression for consistently for a long time and you know I think more than anything it's about consistency rather than putting a huge amount of effort for a short period of time that is cool man what what marks the good life when you think about the good life what is that for you uh I'm living I'm living um the good life right now you know I you know it's like gosh I get to if big waves exist I get to go chase after big waves I got an awesome wife I got amazing kids um I live on Maui um you know I think materialistically you're always like ah it would be great if you had this or that but then again I don't feel like I need any of that it's like the only stuff that I usually want that's materialistic is helping me become a better athlete it's kind of tools you know it's like if we adjust this board slightly it's going to help me she's going to help me get to what the feeling that I'm chasing after um but the good life I'm living it right now and it's it's only going to help me get to what the feeling that I'm chasing after um but the good life I'm living it right now and it's it's almost so good that I wanted to last forever and it never ends and you know life is short and sweet and so got to enjoy it while I can but um you know it's like I'm in the position now where I'm like can this just be forever for all of eternity just this right now because it's perfect and now one final word from our sponsors finding mastery is brought to you by AG 1 if you've been listening to the podcast here for a while you know how much I love AG 1 with a science-informed blend of vitamins probiotics and whole food source nutrients AG 1 is the ultimate daily foundational nutrition supplement that supports 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to drink AG 1 dot com slash finding mastery that's drink AG 1 dot com slash finding mastery I hope you'll check it out let's jump right back into the conversation so what what is the average training day look like for you so let's talk about the preparation and of course I'm more interested in how you're training your mind to be focused to be clear to be flexible when it's not going according to plan like I am interested in how you go about building those skills now like before when I was just you know didn't have kids and you know it was able to just be on the water all day every day all day long you know there's like one thing that I've learned if I've learned and wait wait hold on hold how are you dealing with the kids in the background I love it I think this is hilarious that you my wife has her hands full right now we're having a serious conversation about whatever and then you've got in the background I can barely hear if I'm sure you can really hear it you know like to distract you're happier distress I can't tell what it is kids but it's probably a combo yeah right how are you managing that noise with focusing in this moment I my wife is I would say more equipped and you know she's she's a better version than I am just as a person in general but also as a parent and so they're the girls are in good hands right now and I could tell by kind of their trick in they're kind of probably tired almost ready for their nap but then they're also having fun and they like to make a lot of noise and maybe one bit another one or you know one fill down and it's set them off and they're not like in distress or anything it's just yeah right kids being kids sort of thing and how how are you managing it in like in like go right in your mind is it like oh no or is it like oh that's interesting are they're in good hands or is it like oh it's not important like who cares like this is my life and we're good like well it's multitasking for sure like I know exactly what I'm talking about here in the conversation but based on the screams the background I can sort of already just tell what kind of situation they're in I can almost imagine visualize exactly what's going on the the thing is is I just like in a big way spot I understand okay all the doors are closed right now the kids are probably just overtired because it's you know nine o'clock here in Hawaii and it's almost their nap time you know it's like they're just being kids at this point my wife is there and you know and she's the best mother in the world and she she's already handled the situation and the girls are happy again how much of the tension that you felt and I'm going to move off this I promise but I think this is materially important was trying to manage your commitment here to you know like a thinking well and to having a good experience for our community that's listening versus managing like the tension in the other room like was there any was that an issue for you or was that like no now zero zero the reason why is because it comes down to what you can control and then also just understanding the landscape of where you're at you know like kind of the the the battlefield you know with your kids it's like I know they're in safe hands you know I can let go you know if I'm like kind of like an overbearing parent I would be like hold on one second I got to check and everything was fine and you're like oh no it's all good it's I just know my living room so well that in my head in the background all that processing I'm like they're totally fine like I said if we were in Bali it'd be a completely different scenario that's right and this is I think the big takeaway for me is that you're you understand really well this is part of your operating system in life is what matters as a as a primary and what matters as a secondary feature or function and what primary safety of your kids secondary is like our experience but that that is that is not even that important to you because you're dealing with what's controllable and that gives you this ease through life because you're like oh no no no I'm focusing on the things I can control I'm assessing danger quickly and accurately I use my imagination I know the scenario it's good and that's just a distraction for somebody maybe but for me like I'm here with you and that's actually okay what's happening in the room I'm here with you and yeah that's that I think is a bigger insight aha moment then well we couldn't plan for it so it's pretty cool but that's a that philosophy or philosophical way going through life I think has led you or has been paramount to lead you to be one of the greatest watermen sports people on the planet highly regarded as one of the you know almost a legendary talent I'm not sorry generational talent as a water person so that was cool I really appreciated that so thank you no problem and I mean just to touch on a little more of that it's just interesting because I used to stress out a lot about gosh I want to build a battle I would say the world not in terms of like what you can do on the water with all these different sports there's only so much time in the day to do all these sports and ideally it's like or not even ideally but like I get in an anxious way you would be like I'm gonna just do all the sports every single day in a row so I like know that where I stand in terms of like my performance level and what other people are doing because easy to see what incredible things people are doing around the world with social media and all that now and then it's realizing that's like you know this is what I realized when I had kids was like you could spend four hours in the water you know kind of passively doing the sport because it's hard to maintain a level of focus to go to the next level for four straight hours like it it's good to have time in the water no doubt but you're almost better off doing a lot shorter time in the water that is much more focused if I did just an hour or even 45 minutes maybe even less 30 minutes in the water I could probably get more out of that session than if I knew I was gonna be out for four hours because even subconsciously you kind of go all I steps time whereas you know when you don't have the luxury of time you're like okay I did this maneuver I'm going into this okay where is that wait and you're just like you're you're maximizing your brain power into that sort of thing so it's like overcoming that anxiety of like not being on the water as much as I'd love to because I'm you know helping raise two little girls that doesn't bother me anymore because the time I do spend on the water is much more potent and I get way more out of it and since I've had my girls my level of writing and all my sports have gone 10 times better and that leads me into talking about I would say the visualization side of things you know like being your your mind really can't tell the difference between doing it in real life and actually just visualizing it and when I'm on airplanes to go to these big way of spots or not even go these big way of spots but just traveling in general I'll put myself in a precarious situation in my head and I'll have triggers like a certain song that'll help me get there get really focused and visualize and you know when you're one thing that always annoys me is like sometimes you'll be and we all do it you know where you just kind of blank out and you're just kind of staring but you're not looking at anything you're just in your head and so we'll be like dude you're zoning out it's like dude you're just ruined it like you know and being able to handle not allowing the outside world to like penetrate into that so that's been like a fun exercise too you know it's like people are like you're zoning out and not letting them affect it in a way because I'm like I'm onto something right now I visualizes a point where on an airplane my palms will get sweaty and I won't even be riding a big wave or I'll start my heart rate will go up and I'll hyperventilate and if I can run a scenario over and over and over and over again to the point where that doesn't happen when I'm actually there and real life feels like deja vu so it's kind of like making deja vu on your own and creating it and then when you get out there it doesn't feel hard at all it's like oh I've been here before even though this is the first time I've ever physically done it I mean one thing like talking about letting go and control you know if you've ever been on an airplane and you're like coming down you're you're gonna be late for your next flight and my buddy might be freaking out and it's like there's nothing to freak out over I've already thought about okay if we do make the flight great if we don't there's an airport hotel here the next flight will be at this time and in in order to like get control of that anxiety I often kind of lean on what I can control like you know you mentioned earlier yeah so contingency planning is a big part of your prep is that fair okay I would say it puts my mind at ease you know if anything it's like I could do this I could do that I could do that okay that's not my control so don't worry about it it's a best practice in for cognitive behavioral training from a psychological approach is contingency planning however there is a thin line too much contingency planning prevents us from actually going and it can actually push you into like preventing us from going and it can also create some anxiousness you're talking about using your imagination to see later and performance imagery is a grounded first principle in psychology to use your imagination to see a future state that doesn't exist and to see it in as many different angles and positions and contexts as you possibly can do how how much time do you spend in a disciplined way and I don't mean like I'm walking down the street doing imagery or I'm driving my car doing imagery but like in a disciplined way or you're using your mind to see the future um I would say the hardest the hardest part is not doing it I would say at every waking moment sort of thing my mind is so fast and active like if I just sit on the couch and I'm just sitting there and you know watching my girls play and just making sure everything's good I'll totally just like start visualizing like you know it could be a number of things could be on water activities it could be like an invention that I want to you know incorporate into what I'm riding um and I'd say my biggest challenge is the is not visualizing like sometimes allowing the mind to actually rest you know I've always had really active dreams like very lucid dreams constantly um and uh and so like I've found if I can really just exist and just like these feel the stillness and appreciate my surroundings and not think or trying to not think in a way it's like just looking at I'll do this exercise where it's like in order to separate my mind from a million ideas that I have or trying to get into a really like I would say comfortable place where I feel like I have a clean slate it's like picking images or it's picking things out and saying it out loud as quick as I can so if I'm looking outside I see a green palm tree and the leaves are blowing northwest direction and uh the sky is blue but there is some clouds and a possibility of rain over in Pucolani like I'm looking around and I'm picking things that house is gray you know I just saw a bird pick a flower over here and that flower is orange and it's standing on kind of like an empty branch you're doing it as quick as I can and that puts me into my scenario or into the landscape that I'm in the area I'm in and then I do that for a couple of minutes and all of a sudden I stop and now I feel like see everything but my mind isn't controlling everything you know what I mean it's like I'm just absorbing and I can take everything in it's a cool practice because technically what you're doing it's a present moment focus without assessment without analyzing without interpreting it's just a present moment focus and if you're doing it nature there's an extra layer of benefit what you're doing is you're quieting down what's called your default mode network and the default mode just to be a nerd here the default mode is constantly checking am I okay are we okay is this okay totally which is like at the spread it the it's the core seed of suffering you know like self-focusing am I okay and you're quieting that down with a deep focus that doesn't require analysis and that's a that's a really cool entryway into a common mind a more eloquently focused mind on the task at hand rather than try to protect or persevere yeah and that's been that's been really beneficial I would say really helpful just to like right before I do something like write a big way or you know maybe it's been a long day and you know you feel kind of the weight of it on shoulders and your mind feels overwhelmed so I do I don't do it I only do it when I sort of feel like I'm into that because I do like what my mind's really active because I'll get I'll get onto these kind of roles and I'll be like I'll be getting all this information in my head it feels like it's being placed there and I'm like I got to write this down you know because this is like key details I don't want to forget and then I'll put it to the side and then I can like move on as well um okay let's go but let's go back to imagery really quickly do you do you spend time like closing your eyes and seeing excellence later do you yeah is that a practice you do or is that not part of your routine well so like my routine I would say I I'll put myself I try to put myself in multiple scenarios the outcome being really good and once I kind of get comfortable the outcome I will kind of confront what could happen and how I would get out of it so it's the difference between all right I got this wave and I'm in this giant barrel and the unpredictably unpredictability of being in a giant barrel is it may collapse on you it may crunch on you and you've done everything right you were in the perfect spot it was just the wave that did something that you couldn't see coming um and so I like I made it through that chandelier that big gnarly tavern and then what would happen if I got hit in the face and I went underwater and that's where you get that anxiety and that sweaty palms and underwater how would I react like I would be holding my breath and I would just be like how would I allow myself to process everything sort of thing and then okay I would hop on the sled what if we lost the jet ski okay this is what I would do so I wouldn't get hurt no one else would get hurt but how could we get the jet ski oh it's lost for good okay let's go around this way and come on the rocks and you know like I will do both ends so that nothing seems unpredictable or not even unpredictable but does nothing comes by surprise and I think oftentimes we focus on what we want to happen exactly but in an unpredictable situation like big wave surfing all everything's gonna happen at one point what percentage of time are you seeing success and what percentage of time are you seeing yourself like navigate in adverse conditions or like where something's not going according to plan I'd say it's like 70, 30, 80, 20 you know I will definitely focus on the what I want to happen you know and like how I want to happen but I I'm not afraid it's a necessarily just hop back into the same scenario and be like what if it didn't work out like how would I get out of it because you know it's not like falling on a giant ramp necessarily and or like falling doing a hitting a big jump and landing on the ground and you could just sort of lay there the moment you fall on a big wave or just you know in most ocean conditions you're gonna keep going and big waves in particular you know it's like you fall and then the ride after the ride begins the most violent part happens you might have already injured yourself and then you get slammed on the bottom and then that wave goes by and then you have another wave and then you have to think exit strategies you know it's like okay like having kind of an arsenal of options in your head so if you're confronted with that situation you don't think it's just sort of like oh yeah this is the right thing to do this was the right call okay sacrifice the board right now because it might be me attached to the board being sacrificed and then it's just a case by case you know scenario and a lot of times I never experienced any of that and I often think it's because somehow in this universe in this matrix I've already experienced it in my head so I'm almost tricking the game and it's like I can just avoid it and I would say a lot of times when I ride big waves I might only fall once per session maybe less maybe not you know I've had sessions where I don't even fall and I ride at my absolute limit and it's just because I've I just so much confidence in how I'm going to ride that I don't make silly like blunders were oh I hit a chop and I didn't see it coming it's like no I always knew there was gonna be a chop there or this is a possibility to land not perfectly and then there's other sessions where you just fall like five or six times but then again it's like I've experienced it in my head already that it doesn't feel unknown anymore you know the fear of the unknown is what stops you from wanting to go but once you already kind of know it you're like okay it's not that bad you know I've been there done that would you say that the fear of note the fear of the unknown stops you from going it's using your imagination to help you become familiar with what the unknown could become that allows you to go for it more often yeah that's accurate because it comes down to belief too like do you believe you could actually do something like that because it's half the time it's battling what you would perceive other people would think was possible sort of thing I at least that's what holds me back sometime this okay this I'm so glad we're talking about this because eventually you get to feeling feeling what it feels like to be on the knife's edge right to be right at the edge of your limit of something but this little thing here is two things that are I think are just for for our community to embrace this part of it because I think people have a hard time understanding what does this have to do with me and I'll just pause and say you are becoming someone and like seeing your the best version of yourself without any physical consequences is a skill and seeing how you want to navigate a conversation with a kill with one your children a supervisor appear how you want to present whatever the thing is like this is free and it's a skill that that can be enhanced and so here's the here's the my excitement is that when I was walking home from schools like a 15-minute walk from school to the house and on a sidewalk and then there'd be bushes and I imagine that bush is a section and I'd float over it in my in my mind so I'm actually I'm not closing my eyes I'm walking up a hill floating in my imagination over a bush you know pulling in underneath like a tree I know you've done this as well right of course okay so then I was like this really helps because then I somehow felt more familiar in those kind of environments later right and I'm using my imagination the best way and then when I got sophisticated close my eyes and I would I would I can feel it but what I really struggle with is like can I actually drop into that type of wave and commit a bottom turn as heavy as I see somebody like you doing it can I do that and and that's like even in my imagination I'm trying to sort that out and so you two do that as well oh absolutely you know it's like I would say there's no there's no easy path usually there's a lot of this navigation to trying to I think walking things out for sure you know how you're using the bush as your imagination I would literally go in the yard and walk things out like what is that like I'll use like if I'm I'll mix imagining and then also like the visualization part with actually moving my body so like it's funny because I will catch myself doing it or someone will mention that I'm doing it I'll like it's either that hover hanging for the barrel but I'll also do my arm position for a turn so like if I if I'm just walking straight and there's a wall I'll like kind of turn my body and see where my front hand is and then I'll go to the top and I'll put my hand and I'll sweep my bottom hand so it's lower than you know I'm a regular foot so swoop it lower than my left hand and my left hand will raise and that'll keep the nose out of the water and blah blah blah so the point is is like there's like I feel like there's just so many stages and so many levels that you can sort of like keep falling back on if you're having a hard time feeling it like sometimes you can really feel something and you don't have to like do that helicopter view you don't have to walk it out you can just like be there and other times like you have a goal and I would say the resistance part of you is holding you back so much that you can't even get started so it's like how do you just keep dumbing it down to the point where it just gets almost not even what you're going after it's just so simple it's like what would it be like just a ride away right here and I'm not visualizing it like I'm not imagining it I'm almost just actually just doing it and then that imagination comes naturally from body movement you know okay so limits I want to go back to this one more time just quickly which is what do you think the limits that most people like what are the things that hold most people back what do you think those are the limits on things as I guess out for me it's just been fear of the unknown letting that resistance stop you from just taking the first step and then you know I think if you want to become truly great at something it's really important to be able to step over the edge just a little bit because it's like in developing equipment for me to rock you can you know there's a there's taking baby steps but then there's also being able to maybe overshoot just a little bit and then just reel it back in and because it's easier to go backwards than it is to like punch forward and if you can like if you're at a point where you're standing on the beach and the waves are significantly bigger but you've done all the training you've done your homework but you still feel like you can't get off the sand it's and but you know you can do it that's the point when you're like you almost got to turn everything off and go for it because you have to just have face in yourself and I think it's really important to to have that sort of level of you know almost a little bit of cockiness in yourself you know like you know you have to you have to be willing to cross that line in the sand and then maybe that line moves forward and maybe you realize you can come back but until you do that you're not going to know what what your potential is and oftentimes when people do step over that that fearful edge just a little bit they realize hey the water is just fine like oh now I see another line in the sand that's way in front of me like oh I can get over there and what was I thinking not having to do that but most people don't take enough risk you know and and I don't mean like get on a motorcycle and go over the speed limit kind of risk I mean like you know you know basically telling their employer that hey look I can do this next job better than anyone else and I should maybe be in that position even though it's like you're in a comfortable position you know if you want to kind of move up you have to be sort of willing to be I think you know layered Hamilton told me this once he's like you have to learn how to become your own best friend and as soon as you can become your own best friend because most people are enemies of themselves as soon as you can become your own best friend then you got your back all the way and that's all you need because not everyone will always be there for you and if anything everyone else is trying to struggle with the same thing you're doing so yeah becoming your own best friend is a lot of hard work but it's possible oh god it's so good okay so in one or two words okay the your response or one or two words here as a reductionist as hard as it is for both of us how do you answer this it all comes down to doing what you love and having fun I'm gonna this is gonna be an explanation because I just said those words that I told you but I'm gonna explain why it's like you know everything the most cliche things are often pretty true like never give up love what you do always have fun but there's so much more they're they're not as broad as you really think you know they're really like it's internal and it's the truth if you really love what you do you don't feel like you're working hard at it it's something you want to do if you're having fun you know you don't you're basically excited for what comes next and you're looking forward to it because you don't want it to end and then never giving up is basically the byproduct of those two first things it's just you don't give up because A you love what you do and you're having so much fun it's giving up's not even crosses your mind you're just this is what you love to do and so when people are like how do you handle these big zaves and how do you not give up and quits like I just really like what I do and I'm having a lot of fun so till it's not fun I'm gonna keep you know doing it where do you want to send people to for to watch the life of Kai to follow along with what you're doing and you know where do you want to drive people to if people think I'm crazy I went up to Alaska with Travis Rice and I got to snowboard these mountains which I guess maybe was crazy but watching what he can do on these big mountains makes what I do in the ocean seem tame like just the level of expertise I learned a lot from Travis and we made a episode for life of Kai it's on Red Bull TV right now it will be on YouTube soon but look up Life of Kai kind of Travis go to Alaska and you know if there's one take if there's a few takeaways from that trip with Travis that I really learned is how quiet he's able to get right before he does something amazing and how focus he's able to get and how he's able to turn off the noise around them so it's like that exercise I was talking about like picking things out and getting into that his face he can switch that on like a light and he's a master of his craft so it's no problem and then his his not his it basically leading into that the foundation of he did all the homework he knows the line he knows where you might die he knows where the curvasses are in the cliffs and where the slough might turn into an avalanche you know he knows all that but when he gets on to that that mountain it's all background and he's able to be that pain pressure on this massive canvas and watching that and watching him do stuff and ride mountains that you know if you fall you die was like next level because at least in the ocean when you're riding a big wave no matter how big it is it's it's water and you still there you can still come up you know buried by an avalanche you're probably not coming up back in those mountains so you know I it's it was one of the top three trips of my life was going there because it was that eye-opening experience and I hope it comes across for people that watch this episode because you they literally took me a fish out of water that's awesome so life a Kai it's awesome and I see that you're doing it you're learning to do it a double blackfoot does that mean that you're you're trying to sort out how to double back you know on a wave totally I mean that's a trap what Travis Rice does in Alaska I mean it was like you know to me I'm like if you can do a double backflip on you know a big mountain why can't I do it on big wave a lot of times the air he's flying he's going 50 to 80 feet flying through the air and that's as tall as the waves I'm riding so I'm like if he can do that like what's holding us back from doing it on a big wave well what's holding us back from doing it on a big wave is it's the wave is moving quite quick but then also you don't have the same ramp every time and the hardest part about trying to do a double rotation on a big wave has literally been getting the opportunity you know you can't just go out there and build the ramp and practice because you can practice on smaller waves but it's just not the same until you're on a big wave and you see that giant lip coming at you and you're like do I really want to hit it and you end up going for it and I've gotten close like I've landed doubles out the back I've landed it on the wave but I've never written out you know and it's one of those things where you know it's consistency and there's going to be consequences I'm gonna get worked because of it and that's just part of that's part of the journey and I feel like the moment I land one I'll be able to land them all the time and it will be this it'll be like yeah stepping over that edge you know and then all of a sudden there's a new line in the sand and it's like well if you can do a double you could probably do a triple you know. Kai your legend for a reason thank you again and I hope that we can be a resource and a support for you whatever you're doing so let us know and then I want to encourage our community to head over to Kai Lenny K.A.I L.E.N. and Y all social all the links will be in there and check out the left for Kai it's epic. Thank you thanks for your time it was fun. All right thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you we really appreciate you being part of this community and if you're enjoying the show the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening also if you haven't already please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify we are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback if you're looking for even more insights we have a newsletter we send out every Wednesday punch over to findingmastery.com slash newsletter to sign up this show wouldn't be possible without our sponsors and we take our recommendations seriously and the team is very thoughtful about making sure we love and endorse every product you hear on the show if you want to check out any of our sponsor offers you heard about in this episode you can find those deals at findingmastery.com slash sponsors and remember no one does it alone the door here at Finding Mastery is always open to those looking to explore the edges and the reaches of their potential so that they can help others do the same so join our community share your favorite episode with a friend and let us know how we can continue to show up for you lastly as a quick reminder information in this podcast and from any material on the findingmastery website and social channels is for information purposes only if you're looking for meaningful support which we all need one of the best things you can do is to talk to a licensed professional so seek assistance from your healthcare providers again a sincere thank you for listening until next episode be well think well and keep exploring