The Art and Science of Building Healthy Relationships | Drs. John and Julie Gottman

We like to say love is a verb. It's not a noun, it's a verb. And it means placing your partner's feelings, needs, and dreams as either as important as your own or at times more important than your own and treating your partner accordingly. You're welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Michael Gervais, my trade and training a high-performance psychologist. And we've got an exciting two-for-one today, as I sit down with Drs. John and Julie Gottman. I have a feeling a lot of you will be paying extra close attention to the insights of today's guests, the world's leading relationship scientists. The Gottman's have been called the Einstein's of love. John and Julie have been studying love for over five decades. They've compiled data on over 3,000 couples all in service of one goal to identify the building blocks of healthy, loving, and long-lasting relationships. Together, they've co-authored many best-selling books and founded the Gottman Institute all to further their commitment to research-based approaches to relationships. Their new book, The Love Prescription, is a New York Times bestseller and details a simple but powerful seven-day plan to transform your relationship. I'm honored to have this conversation with them to learn about a few small changes that they found to fundamentally alter romantic love for the better. Their research has been foundational in my personal and professional life. Whether you're a skeptic or a romantic married, pursuing a romantic relationship, or longing for a way to expand your perspective on either, I trust you'll find this conversation enlightening. I think all of us want to experience healthy love, and many of us find it elusive. And so I'm grateful to John and Julie for spending so much of their lives on a topic we can all deeply resonate with. And if you're enjoying this podcast and haven't already, just a quick reminder to hit the subscribe or follow button and to drop us a review wherever you're listening. It is the easiest and zero cost way to support this show. So with that, let's dive right into this week's conversation with doctors John and Julie Gottman. Oh, I can't believe I'm sitting down with the Gottman's. And I just want to say thank you for the contribution you've made to the field and to my professional and personal life as well. And you've been in this for over 50 years and studying the science of love. You know, just as a general idea, what is still fascinating you about this science and particularly about the science of love? You know, I think what is fascinating me, Mike, is how to treat couples who have complicated lives, couples who may be seriously depressed or one partner may be struggling with an addiction. I have a lot of couples who are coming in, particularly after the pandemic, and so distressed, so unhappy, they may have lost their direction. They're not sure what's going to give their life meaning and whether or not they really belong with this current partner. And many times they don't have the tools to forge a bridge between them, particularly since they were crushed together during the pandemic and are just looking for space at this point. So it's challenging and particularly challenging as a result of what's outside their relationship as well as what's inside. Yeah, I would have to agree with Julie that we did a study with 40,000 couples about about to start therapy and international study with same-sex then and cross-sex couples, all kinds of couples. And Julie's right, over 60% of the time couples had these additional problems, these comorbidities that went along with unhappiness in the relationship. They were struggling with addiction, violence, depression, all kinds of other things that really impinged on the relationship. And treating couples with all of those problems by the time they start therapy is a real challenge. Yeah, it's one of the more complex in my mind. It's one of the more complicated parts of the science, the psychological science is about relationships. And I'd love your take on why you think it's so complex or why I sense that it's so complicated. Maybe you value the complexity as well. And do you have a bright line about why this part of the science is so complicated for so many of us? You know, I think Dr. Mike, it's a really, really good question. And there's a very simple answer to it, which is nobody took relationships 101 in high school. Nobody learned the skills. Nobody typically saw modeled in their homes the ideal relationship, where people were really solving problems in a kind way in a calm way. People may be getting flooded when they were growing up, meaning they would get so upset they would be screaming and yelling at one another. So most of us didn't have role models on which to base our own relationship skills and intimacy later in life. So how are you supposed to learn these things? And if you haven't learned them, then on, you know, on the presence of them, you're overwhelmed. It feels like, oh my God, it's so different. It's so much to learn, etc. But actually, it isn't all that complicated. One just has to learn the skills that we teach, as well as ways to really deeply connect with their partner to sustain a very good relationship. In your new book, The Love Prescription, why did you write that now? Because what you just talked about, I'm nodding my head emphatically saying, yeah, the tools, the skills to work, which I wasn't taught them. It was your work that introduced them to me. And I also think I'll add one more layer of complexity that seems apparent to me. And you might wave me off of this, please do, is that I came into the relationship as a young person with all of the baggage, you know, from my life. My partner, my wife, comes into the relationship as a young person with all the baggage we've been married over the last years, and her baggage and unique trip wires or triggers. And we are in an unsophisticated way, trying to be in the best relationship we know how. But we don't have the ideal model, we have our models that we came from our parents. And so it's all this baggage, all these trip wires with a lack of tools, and trying to do our very best. And I feel like that's most of my friends, and most of the high performers I work with, that the tools are wanting. And there's all this non-conscious triggers, trip wires that are not brought to the surface, readily, that we're constantly tripping over those things. So would you agree that that's part of the complication, or do you say, no, it's just, it's really about skills? Well, you know, let me, let me try to answer that question. And the reason that we wrote this book is that a lot of times people feel so overwhelmed by the challenge of making a relationship work, that they don't ever get started. And so, you know, we thought, you know, why don't we write a book where it's going to be really easy to get started. And the principles are not really very complicated. And could we actually change a relationship in just a week? Could we give people a prescription that'll help them get started? And once they do these things for a week, they'll see that in fact, it's not that complicated to have an intimate relationship that lasts. That was kind of more motivation. There is a second part to your question that I want to address that is very important. That's why I interrupted you, nor I don't do that. Cool, cool, cool. Badge. Let's talk about baggage. Nobody comes from an ideal childhood. Nobody does. Everybody has, as you put it, tripwires in their adulthood that relate back to their childhood. And a lot of people, especially, unfortunately, men in our society, are socially trained to not feel vulnerable, to not feel sad, to not breathe, to not feel afraid. Yet, many come from backgrounds, whereas kids, they may have been traumatized, they may have been hit, they may have grown up in poverty, they may have grown up in a stony, cold, tense environment, including the treatment of themselves, and there are ways in which, even though we might do, work to heal from those old wounds, typically, they never fully heal. They're like scar tissue, and scar tissue tends to be very brittle. It's not elastic the way healthy tissue is. So when you poke it, what happens? It tears. And that's easily what can happen when, let's say, a couple is discussing whether or not to watch a particular TV show. And one of the partners is saying, I really don't want to watch this. The other partner is saying, I really do. And what the person who says, I do want to watch it doesn't know, is that the other person is being reminded of a terrible incident that happened, let's say in her past, where somebody attacked her in a parking lot. And she's getting triggered and going into what we call a post trauma state, where she's just zoning out, but desperately trying to push away what's triggering her, which is the TV show. But the other partner may not know that. So part of our work together is really to unearth what is deeply within each individual. So first of all, that people can know each other much better, what we call love mapping. They can really map out the partners in our world and share their own inner world. And secondly, people understand that the other partner, each of you may have scars that get tripped over every now and then that get triggered. And those really need to be revealed, talked about, and understood, which deepens the compassion between the partners and then make solving problems a lot easier. I'm going to pause the conversation here for just a few minutes to talk about our sponsors. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Juve. Right now, many of us are focused on improving our health and wellness. And when it comes to technologies, they can help you do that. Juve is one of my favorites. That's because they are leading the way on improving one of the most foundational aspects to our overall health, our cells. So how do they do it? Juve utilizes red and near infrared light to stimulate the mitochondria in your cells to help you produce more core energy, which in return, boost performance and recovery. There are scores of clinically proven benefits from red light therapy, such as improving skin and faster muscle recovery, reduce pain and inflammation, enhance sleep and more. I use Juve nearly every day. It's about 10 minutes of my time. It's really relaxing. And I also at the same time I'm using it, I stack meditation. So I'm doing some breathing work or some meditation at the same time that I'm supporting my mitochondria in cell production. So if this sounds good to you, I want to encourage you to go check out Juve today. And while you're there, Juve is offering all of our listeners an exclusive discount on their first order. So just go to juve.com slash finding mastery and use the code FindingMastery at checkout. So how do you spell it? J-O-O-V-V dot com slash finding mastery. Juve.com slash finding mastery. And there are some exclusions that do apply. Finding mastery is brought to you by Sakara. Sakara delivers science-backed plant-rich nutrition programs and wellness essentials right to your door. The ready-to-eat meals are nutritionally designed to deliver results from weight management and ease bloating to boosted energy to clear skin. And they're delicious, which makes it much easier to commit yourself to this process. Everything they make is plant-based. Their salads are phenomenal. But you know what I really look forward to? Is their breakfasts. They're really good. They're really thoughtfully crafted. I want to encourage you to check them out. And so they taste great. I know that I'm getting some micro-macro nutrients that I normally don't get in my diet. And that's why I look forward to Sakara. So right now Sakara is offering our listeners 20% off their first order when you go to Sakara.com slash FindingMastery or you enter the code FindingMastery at checkout. That's Sakara S-A-K-A-R-A Sakara.com slash FindingMastery to get 20% off your first order. Let's jump right back into the conversation. Everything you're saying, I'm like, yeah, it's so good. And then it's so clear to you both. And I know you're working from research and evidence. And I feel like I can hear my younger self going, yeah, nice. Okay, right. That's how I'm going to do this. I'm going to sit and listen. And then I hear my, we've been married 35 years, right? And I can hear my current part like, yeah, that's so rich. I want to just, I need more of that. I want to find the time and make sure that I create that space to do it like every day and whatever. And so, and I also hear like this other part, like that takes a trained professional in respects to be able to do that work. And that's, in my estimate, that's what the book was to make it really simple. Like here's a prescription. And I'm, I don't want to be a cynic. I'm not a cynic in life, but then I, one of my tripwires in science, you know, is like, are there seven rules? I don't know. You know, is there really a prescription? So, and I was wondering if like, I love the simplicity that you made. And I really deeply respect the research foundation that you're coming from. So do you want to start us off with like what the prescription is? Or do you want to move into the mapping? Do you want to maybe start with like what the ideal loving relationship is? Like where do you want to start to get into the into the applied stuff before we get into the, into the things that absolutely tear down a relationship? You know, because I don't go there eventually. Okay. Yeah, one of the, one of the things that was so interesting about the apartment lab that Julian and I designed, where we studied 130 couples right after their wedding, just a couple of months after their wedding, one of these small moments that the camera operator has noticed, where, you know, they're just hanging out in this apartment lab for 24 hours. And one person's just trying to get their partner's attention or interest or have a conversation. And a lot of times the other person just kind of blows it off. You know, really doesn't, doesn't see that this is an important moment and turns away from that attempt to connect. And in that small moment, when people actually do connect, they really actually see this is a bid for attention or emotional connection. It has so much meaning. It really kind of builds this emotional bank account. So in these very small moments that seem almost trivial, you know, unimportant, there lies a real mystery. And when people connect in those small moments, it turns out that the relationship really kind of gets lubricated in a way. So all the gears mesh easily. And it really gives them such amazing gifts as a sense of humor about themselves when they're disagreeing. It gives them a sense of affection, even when they're disagreeing. So those small moments really built. And, you know, so we wanted to tell people, you know, get started noticing the way your partner asks for what he or she needs. And if you attended that, it's going to be an amazing thing. And so I want to make it over concrete. One of my clients, they just had a massive exit, you know, unicorn type business exit. And he is full of fire and zest and a love for life. And they're kind of they're like 35ish and they have a newborn. And and they had this moment. Okay, so they've got all the resources, but it's a brand new all of this kind of new lifestyle that they have is brand new. So stress is high. They're trying to figure out this new life with all of these resources. It sounds like prints and princess problems, but it's like this is the condition and it's it's a new way of governing and making decisions. Okay. And then something happens was like a spilt milk moment. It was actually the door wasn't locked. And they had to have a conversation about having the door locked. And it was a safety trip wire for one of them. And they just had they had it out in the driveway. They're like pissed off. And they jump in the car because they had an appointment, they were going to together. And it was a silent car ride. You know exactly what I'm talking about, right? You've had these. Okay. So it's a silent car ride that gets to the place. And right before they're going to the meeting, they're going to go work out together. Neither of them at this point wanted to work out together. So they went kind of to the gym and they're working out separately. And I guess halfway through the workout, she runs over and while he's working out lifting heavy weights kind of pissed off and agitated. And she runs in front of the mirror between him and the mirror and makes it this goofy face, you know, and right. And so as he's lifting weights and he had a he had a moment either he goes like to himself like, the effort you doing, get out of my way. Or he gets gives into the goofy face that the, you know, the bid, if you will. Do I have it right that that is like, that took courage for her to do because she couldn't have dismissed, right? And there's vulnerability in that in it's like, it's silly. It doesn't always have to be silly. Right. But this one was silly, right? The fun part. That's what we call making a repair. That's the repair. Yeah. That's a repair. So that was so that's not a bit. That's not a bit. And I'm not exactly not exactly. Okay. So Oh, great. Can you understand the bid for the repair? If I have it. Well, let's find out how how did it work for them? Oh, yeah. So he's in mid mid set lifting weights. And you know, he's straining. I would not recommend this because you know, it's like, you don't want to have an intimate conversation when you're at the mile mile 19 of a marathon. That's not the time to do it, right? And elevated heart rate, the whole thing of intensity and stress. And so he had the moment and he knew and we talked about it. He could go either way and he looked at her and he's like, this is the woman that is like, I love her. She's goofy. She's trying. God bless it. And he just laughed. He just like, yeah, put the weight down, you know, and they just looked at each other. And then she's she kind of like left. It was no hugging. There was no hugging. Yeah, we're really right. Right. But they made eye contact, right? Like, right. And I go, I want more of those in my life. Like, I want to be, I want to be both of them in that. Right. That's a successful repair. So here's the difference between a repair and a bid, though, of course, there's lots of overlap, a repair is an attempt to get back on track when a conversation or a conflict or something has gone wrong. Then the person does something to make it better, to take the tension out of the out of, you know, the space between the partners, to repair what's gone wrong. You see, and she used humor, she used humor and silliness to kind of crack through the ice between them. That's exactly right. Yeah. So I had enough emotional money in the bank from bids being turned toward that he could laugh. Let me also just say, here's what a bid would look like. Okay, John and I can actually role play it. And there are three responses you can make to a bid. One is turning away, which means just ignoring it. Two means responding hostily to it. And three is turning toward your partners. So we'll just role play those three. So, gosh, honey, look at that gorgeous bird out there. Isn't that amazing? Honey, look at the bird. Listen, I'm trying to read and you keep interrupting me with these trivial things. It's really irritating, annoying. Hey, look at that gorgeous bird out there. Wow, it's a blue jay, right? Yeah, credible. That's it. That's all it takes to turn towards a bid. So what I'm doing there, you saw, John, when I first pointed out the bird, I was just looking to share a moment with him. And that's you're saying that's the bid. That was the bid. I've had this wrong for years. I'm so glad we asked because I've been thinking the bid was it took place as the first kind of entry into repair. I thought what she did was the bid and then they're going to have a conversation later that was going to have that was going to deepen the repair. And that's I don't have it right. Okay. Yeah. So bids for connection are much bigger than that. So they include bids for shared interest in something. That's what I was doing just then. A bid may be making a request. Honey, would you please clean the counters in the kitchen? That's a bid. A bid also can be much deeper. Like, honey, I'm having a terrible time dealing with this relationship. I really need you to talk with me about it. Would you please? Can we make some time to do that? Is that okay? Yeah. That would be fun. See, there you go. So those are all bids for connection. You have a second career waiting for you. Like you guys should take this on the road, which I know you have. All right. So bids for attention, bids for connection, and really what we're looking for is a response. Right. Is that is that what we're trying to toward? We're looking for a particular kind of response that we call turning toward, which is typically affirming of the other person. So joining the other person, if they're asking to share a moment where they're interested in something, it can be a response of, yes, sure, I'll do that. A positive response might even look like this. Honey, I don't have time to do this right now, but I promise you I'll get it done before the end of the day. You always say that. And you know, like, honestly, I'm starting to think that you don't really want to do it. You're just saying that because you know that it's the nice thing to say. Okay. Well, I can understand you feeling that way because I've let you down many times. But right now, I really truthfully am saying I promise to do this task you've asked me to do. So see what happens. You know, I'm really glad that you bring this up because honestly, I feel like every time I'm into something and I'm doing something that requires a lot of focus, it's like you're kind of needy. And it's like, I know we're doing the bid thing, but I think you're overbidding. Okay. So I'm going to step out of roll for a minute. Oh, come on. It was almost so good. It was almost there, Julie. Yeah, it wasn't a criticism. Yeah, that's right. It was a criticism. That's where I would go. I'll go back into roll. So, you know, Mike, I'm feeling really defensive right now. Can you say what you want to say in another way? No, you know what? I'm over it and you're just going to have to figure it out and you're going to have to come to me like when you get it together. I'm doing stonewalling. Okay. Let me not do that. Let me not be cheeky. Can I say it another way? Yeah. Okay. Well, I feel like when I am really trying to focus on something that I want to be there for you, but it feels like there's another game that's being played and I'm really agitated by it. Can you help me understand what you mean by another game? It's like when I'm deeply into something, those are the times that I feel like you want my attention most. And I don't know. I just don't quite understand what's going on. Like, you know, I'm focusing. You know, I need to get this thing done. And, you know, I'm writing, I'm writing right now or whatever. And it's, I don't know. I just feel exhausted by it. Wow. So let me make sure I'm understanding you correctly. You're saying that it seems to you that when you are focusing the most on something, something that you are doing, it seems to you that I approach you particularly at those times to get your attention. That's what that's Julie. That's the way it feels today. Yep. Oh God. What a drag. That must feel pretty crummy because you're divided between. Yeah, that's what I've been trying to tell you. That's what I've been trying. Like all this time. That's exactly what I've been saying. It's like, I want to spend time with you, but like not now. Okay. So tell me what would be, um, what would be the ideal for you if I have something that I am needing to share with you and at the same time, you're really focused on another task. What would work better for you? I think you got to be better at reading the cues. And I know you want me to say what I need, but like, I just need you to like know when I'm, how about I do this? When I put my headphones on, it's like, I'm, I'm trying to get in my zone. You know, that's perfect. That'll be a great signal to me. That this is a time just for you to be focused on what you're choosing to focus on. And I should give you that space. Is that right? That would be a great signal to tell me that. Cool. That, that was, it's all pull out now, Julie. That, that was like, that feels like the normal kind of circular thing that could happen. Like, I went to irritation, frustration, blaming, pointing finger, you know, criticism and defensiveness is what we're stuck in. And you pulled us out of it. And can you tell, can you, can you describe what you're doing to be able to do that? Yes. Because, yeah, this is the takeaway, right? What you're about to say is, is going to be gold. And so you explain this for folks. Maybe silver, not quite. Okay. Actually, I think this is more, you guys know this. This is where people get stuck. I know. Defensiveness, critique, defensive, and like, it's the spiral, it's snake eating its tail. And then it gets like, then frustration is part of it in a way that it's like, what are we doing? Yeah. We keep having this conversation. Right. Okay. Okay. So here are the, here are the steps that I took during that conversation to change the course of where it was going. First of all, when you spoke your first criticism of me, you're too needy. You know, basically, I took the feeling I had, which was ouch. And I turned it into I'm feeling defensive. So rather than going defensive and getting angry about what you said, instead, I described what I was feeling. I'm feeling defensive. That's, that's part of it. And then asked if you could rephrase what you said that wouldn't make me defensive, basically. That was the first. Then, let's see, then I think you started getting frustrated and a little bit angry. And what I did then, I realized, um, wow, this is really a big deal for you. I could tell that from how you were feeling. And so I moved to another skill, which is to summarize what I heard you saying. And not only summarize it, but give it some validation. There's gold number two validation means from your point of view, I could see how you feel that way. That makes sense to me. I step into your shoes. I empathize, try to with what you may be feeling. And I think to myself, yeah, if I were him, I might feel the same way. So I say that to give you some validation and validation is one of the biggest tools that calms down the conversation. And you might note you calm down after that the frustration vanished. I followed, I checked it with you. Did I get it right? Make sure I heard it correctly. And then I asked you for what you needed. And that was my being open to you having needs, not just me having needs, but you having needs and sorting out, the nugget of what lay inside are difficulty connecting with one another when you were focusing on something else. Okay, quick pause here to share some of the sponsors of this conversation. Finding Master is brought to you by House of Macadamia's. My life has been moving at full tilt recently. And I'm sure the same is for you. And when life gets fast paced, I doubled down on nutrition, investing in high quality fuel from my mind and my body throughout the day is like a staple. And so I want to introduce you to House of Macadamia's. Nuts have been a go-to snack for me for a long time, but not all nuts are great to equal. And macadamia's have come to stand out among the rest for good reason. They are high in rare omega-7 fatty acids, high in mono saturated fats, similar to foods like avocados, low in carbs, low in lectin, which can act like an antioxidant. And they're really good. They taste great. I've been loving House of Macadamia's macadamia bars. They've quickly become a staple snack in our house and at the Master's Lab as well. It seems like they disappear almost as soon as they arrive. House of Macadamia sources the highest quality macadamia nuts from over 90 farms in South Africa and delivers them right to your doorstep. In formats and prices that I think you're going to love. And they have a very special offer for you because you're part of the finding mastery community. So you can experience the power of macadamias for yourself. Just head to HouseofMacadamia's.com slash Finding Mastery and use the code Finding Mastery at checkout for 20% off your order. And for a limited time, they're gifting our listeners a free bottle of cold press extra virgin macadamia oil with your order. Again, that's HouseofMacadamia's.com slash Finding Mastery and use the code Finding Mastery at checkout for this exclusive offer. Finding Mastery is brought to you by AG1. If you've been listening to the podcast for a while, you know how much I love AG1 by Athletic Greens. You might not know, however, is that AG1 has a 90-day money-back guarantee. So you can try AG1 for the first 90 days. If it's not for you, just get your money back. You have really nothing to lose and so much to gain. I gave AG1 a try because quite simply I just want to be great with my nutrition and nine years later, I'm still using it just about every day. With one scoop of AG1, you're getting 75 high quality vitamins, minerals, whole food, source superfoods, probiotics, and adaptogens to help you start your day right. For me, I take it first thing in the morning on an empty stomach. I mix it with about eight ounces of water. I think it tastes great. But you can also mix it with smoothie or shake, whatever you prefer. One way to take control of your health today is through AG1. And they're going to give you a free one-year supply of immune-supporting vitamin D and five free travel packs with your first purchase. All you have to do is punch over to athleticgreens.com slash finding mastery. Again, it's athleticgreens.com slash finding mastery. To begin to take ownership over your health and pick up the ultimate daily nutritional insurance. And with that, let's jump right back into our conversation. I'll double down, not silver, gold, like gold. And the reason it's so powerful to me is because I was acting like a child and you held the adult framing or the adult space. Hold on, I don't need to get every one of my needs met. And I just got triggered by the ouch type of thing that you talked about when I was being critical. And you said, but what you did is you didn't respond from the emotion, but you made sure that you were acknowledging the emotion and then sharing the emotion rather than lashing out or retreating from. How long does it take to get not even great, but just good at this? Because emotions are so raw and big and overwhelming to so many of us. Like, how long does it take to get good? And how do we practice? My first of all, let me let me just note something that I want to correct. You said I started acting childish. So let me just say for your listeners that what you were expressing wasn't childlike at all. It wasn't childlike. You were, you know, we had uncovered something that was really frustrating. And yes, you are entitled to get your needs met. So am I. And sometimes we've got to work out how that's going to look. So needs are not childlike. Wanting your needs to be fulfilled is not childlike. It's normal. It's human. We all have needs every single one of us. So how long does it take to learn to do what I was doing? I don't know. You know, I think it depends on how much of practice. Well, we do it with guests and we do it with friends all the time. Good point. So we have those skills. You know, when when a friend comes over and you know spills the line all over your tablecloth, you don't say, get out. You're moving my tablecloth. You say, hey, you know, that that happens. Can I get you another glass of wine? You know, what kind and generous towards strangers and friends. And so I think we have the skills. It's a matter of really in the moment. Just listening. You know, there's a let me give you just another very, very, very simple formula that encapsulates all of this that people can just brand on their forehead. Describe yourself. Don't describe your partner. Simple as that. Describe yourself. Describe your feelings. Describe your needs. When you slip into describing your partner, especially when you're upset or angry, then you move into criticism. You're so lazy. You're so selfish. You're so needy. You're you. That's not going to work. So you start. If you want to bring up a problem with your partner, you describe yourself. I'm feeling what I'm feeling frustrated. I'm feeling angry. About what? What's the situation? Not the character trait of your partner. What's the situation? I'm upset that the bills haven't been paid yet. That's the situation. Then you ask for what you need, the positive need, meaning how can your partner shine for you? It's not what you don't want them to do. You ask for what you do want them to do. That's awesome. Can I add something here? The original idea of being a great listener was really flawed. I think that's part of the problem. The original idea of being a great listener was to say, I feel something when you do something. It turns it back on you. I say, I feel angry when you are too needy. It turns out to be an attack. It's not really listening. Listening has to not have that attack in it. I really feel angry when I'm concentrating and I get interrupted by your needs. I feel sad when you keep doing this. That is not the recipe here or the prescription. Taking your situation here would have been a way to say it right from the get-go. I feel frustrated when I'm focusing on a task and something pulls me away from it. I just want to stay focused on it. Cool. That is no right. There's no attack. There's no. What we found in our research were there were four big predictors of relationship demise over the years because we followed couples for as long as 20 years to see what would happen to their relationships and videotape them. We took physiological measures like heart rate. We took how much they sweated in their palms and so on. Then we brought them back every few years to see what happened to their relationship. We learned there were four big predictors. One criticism. Criticism means blaming your partner, some character trait of your partner for the problem that exists between you. There's where the words like lazy, selfish mean blah blah blah. You always and you never, those are also criticisms. Interestingly enough because they imply a personality trait. You always forget to do the dishes. That's criticism. The second one we saw, defensiveness. Defensiveness is a way of warding off an attack. What feels like an attack? By either counter attacking. Oh yeah. Well you haven't cleaned out the garage. Counter attacking or whining. Oh yeah. Well I did the dishes last night. Right? That's defensiveness. The third is contempt and like that one is like sulfuric acid. For a relationship. It's the very worst of the big predictors. What it is is looking down on your partner from a place of superiority and treating them with a little disgust and scorn. And it can be a look. It can be a look of disdain. You don't have to drop the F bomb. You don't have to use the hate word. Like you can look at somebody cut right through every word of disdain and contempt. Yeah. When that happens a lot, is it like probably should get a divorce if you guys can't fray this thing out? No. But they need therapy. People who are doing a lot of that are going to have a lot of emotional injuries in the relationship. A lot of pain. Lots and lots of pain. In fact we found that the number of contempt expressions a partner hears in 15 minutes not only predicts how badly the relationship will go. It also correlates with how many infectious illnesses the listener will have in the coming year. Meaning. I've missed that bit of your research. That's phenomenal. Contempt. Contempt. Destroys the immune system. How about it? Isn't that amazing? And just to be clear, it's not like you randomly would measure 15 minutes. You'd give them something to wrestle with. You'd give them something emotionally charging to think through. And talk about trying to solve. And talk about, yeah. And then inside of 15 minutes. And like what kind of numbers are we talking about? Like is this four contempt? Experiences or is this like 14? Sometimes it's even the way a conversation about how the day went begins. I remember this one guy who said, why don't you talk about your day? It won't take you very long. Oh, geez. Oh my God. How do you guys keep it together? Honestly, I mean, you're like, you've got to come from some real compassion. You know, because when somebody says like that something like to me, I'm like, guys, like, you actually think this is going to work. Like. They're not thinking about what's going to work. You know, they're feeling bitter. They're feeling angry. Perhaps they've gone through a lot of attack within the relationship that's taken them to that place. Where they come from a family where there's a lot of contempt and disdain. And now one final word from our sponsors. Finding mastery is brought to you by our very own Finding Your Best Course. As you know from listening to this podcast, our minds are our greatest asset. And if you want to learn more about how you can train your mind, I want to encourage you to check out our online high performance mindset course where we've pulled together the best practices to help you unlock your potential perform at your best in any environment. In finding your best, we teach the same high performance principles and mindset skills and well-being practices we use to train world-class athletes and executives. Over my career, this course has been one of the projects that I'm most excited to share. And I hope you find it incredibly meaningful in your life. And I'm really excited to announce that you can now access the course through our brand new website, Finding Mastery dot com. To sign up for the course, check out the new website. And because you're listening to this podcast, we want to give you $50 off the course today. Just head over to finding mastery dot com slash course and enter the code Finding Mastery at checkout. Again, that's finding mastery dot com slash course and enter the code Finding Mastery to receive $50 off the Finding Your Best Course. And with that, let's jump right back into our conversation. My wife and I, we come from loud families. My wife is Latin, Cuban, identifies most of their Cuban descent. And I've got some Irish Italian, I identify mostly with Italian. And so we'll get loud and like it's fiery. And we almost like, yeah, it gets loud. And then we can like we can look at each other, be like, okay, okay, okay, okay, you know what? And there's a there's a repair that takes place. And I think that's one of the reasons we've done well and we've done a lot of relationship work ourselves. Like with a radical therapist that just held us at the highest standard and was loving and warm and knew her stuff. Like I'm sure she knew your work intimately. And so, so what do you say to folks that get loud and have kind of that emotional flair? And it's a cultural thing and it's also a style of communication. What do you say to those folks me in particular? Okay. Well, so we we address three of the four big predictors. The fourth one is called stone walling. But let's talk about what stone walling is and what's behind it, which relates to your question. So stone walling means during the middle of a conversation, one partner gets so upset that they shut down, they withdraw, and they act like a stone wall. They don't give any responses, any facial expression, no eye connection, no words, nothing. There's just nothing there. And it's not for a few seconds might be for a few minutes. That's stone walling, which is very upsetting to the other partner. But what we discovered is that inside people who stonewalled, they were getting what we call flooded. And flooded means you are feeling so attacked that your heart rate is over a hundred beats a minute. Right. And you'd rather be, as John likes to say, you'd rather be on Pluto than in the room talking to your partner. And that is a state, actually, in which blood is moving out of the front of your brain, back behind it to the part of the brain that controls movement, the motor cortex. And as a result, you can't hear well, you can't problem solve. You're going to feel attacked, even if your partner lovingly says, honey, I really love you. You've got tunnel vision and tunnel hearing, everything feels like an attack. And what you have to do then is ask your partner to take a break. Can we just take a break and tell your partner, this is very important, when you will come back to talk again. So your partner isn't just left hanging wondering if you will ever discuss this topic again. So you say when you'll come back, it shouldn't be any shorter than about 20 minutes to a half an hour, no longer than 24 hours. And during the break, you do not think about the fight. Do not, otherwise, you'll stay physiologically aroused. What you have to do instead is something that's self soothing. And that can be reading a book, reading a magazine, listening to music, going on YouTube, it might be going even for a run, because there are different physical dynamics involved. Just something that really takes your mind off the fight and allows your body to metabolize the stress hormones you've released in your body, so that you can calm down and then return at the time you said you would to continue in a calm state. Can I say something here? I want to talk to that Irish Italian human, human cultural thing. You know, before we did this research in the laboratory, therapists thought there was an ideal way to talk about conflict and an involved staying calm, being rational, listening well, low key. And that turned out to be completely wrong. In fact, there are people who are very emotionally expressive and that's fine. It works well, as long as you're not attacking your partner's character, you're not doing the four horsemen. Then there are some people who are really, you know, they're so laid back that, you know, they just don't get upset by anything. They really, they avoid conflict whenever they can. And that's fine too. That works also. And, you know, and there are people in between. So these cultural differences turn out to be unimportant. It's really the way you connect with one another. And, you know, and feeling like your partner is actually on your side. You're working on a problem together. Like you're pushing, you're pushing the ball uphill together. And it doesn't matter if you do it calmly or you do it with a lot of emotion. As long as you're not enemies attacking one of them. I love that you've added that because I'm just, I think my style and not that this has been truly important in the conversation, but I'm really mellow, really mellow in intimate or fiery conversations. Like I just kind of have that ability. And then all of a sudden, I feel like I get thrown off a cliff. Like I lose my, and all of a sudden my voice gets up, but it takes a long time. And what I've done my early life, and I hope people listen and can appreciate this earlier in my life, I didn't do well with criticism. And like I just didn't have the skill. And this is why I'm saying to you guys both, thank you because like your work materially changed my life and probably what was definitely in the DNA of what saved my wife's and my relationship. And, and now like that it's the same style. It's like really slow. And then all of a sudden I get cranked up and she's not surprised by it. It's okay. You know, and then but what I don't do is I don't talk about her. I talk about my experience. And now she's not on her heels. We're pushing the ball uphill together. And I just want to tell you guys, I blew it this morning. I'm listening to, I know your science. You know, best. What do you do? We jumped out of my son and I, my wife, myself and my son, we dropped him off at school. We get back to the house. Our dog's in the car as well. And I was kind of rushing to get to my first meeting. And so I jump out of the car. And usually it's like, hey, baby, we get, we grab the dog, you know, or it's like, hey, I got the dog, whatever, like we're, we're just communicating on, I jumped out of the car like a selfish, you know, whatever, kind of ran into the house because I wanted to get my stuff and get back out, get my car and take off to the office. And she said something under her breath. And I go, oh God, I'm in trouble. And I looked and I was like, what, I'm halfway into the house. I'm like, oh my God, what am I doing? And so I said, I'm sorry, you know, like that. And she's still processing it. Like that was really rude. And she was right. And then so I'm coming downstairs from grabbing my stuff. And I look and she's grabbing a dog bag to pick up the dog's mess. And I'm like, I really screwed this up. Not only is she like, literally she's having to pick up after the dog. And so, so I sent her an emoji once I got to the office. I didn't do the immediate repair bidding and like, I sent an emoji of a panda bear. And that's our little code word. Like we're trying to be more like panda bears. You know, we're trying to like, they just play and they roll and they're fun and you know, they're not threatened by stuff like they're just more playful and big. And so, you know, I got a heart emoji back. And so, um, repair worked. You've been repair worked, but I really, yes, I literally like, oh, but you're a human being, Mike, you're, and you're not selfish. You were maybe a little forgetful and you ran. And we all do stuff like that all the time. John and I do stuff like that. As well as worse stuff. You know, we're always making mistakes. Everybody does. And that's why in our research, the biggest, biggest difference between couples who succeeded, couples who did not was the successful ones made repairs. They made repairs after their mistakes. And the sooner they did that, the better. So, look at you. You did everything right. Right. As soon as you got to the office, you made a pair. And she accepted the repair and boom is gone. So that's terrific. You cleared the channel between you. Nice job. So, okay, you guys are great. I love, um, I just, I love that you bring into the conversation. Like, you know, you guys make all the mistakes as well. And, you know, minimizing the mistakes, you're not eliminating them necessarily. But like, I don't, when I say I'm sorry, like, I didn't know really how to do it earlier. And I really, it's a promise that I'm making to not do that shit again. Whatever that thing is, like, I'm going to do my, my absolute best to not kind of step back into this, you know, pattern. And I'm not perfect there. Of course, nobody is. But like, I really mean it when I say it. So that's taken us a long way. This would be very important. That's a very important thing. I mean, all the, all the failures that I've seen in being a therapist, it's always, it always comes back to that, that, you know, the couples that fail, one person is really not willing to take any responsibility for their side in the communications. And that invariably makes therapy fail, I think. Before we end, I mean, again, amazing. And I know you guys wrote the book eight dates, which interestingly enough, our producer of this podcast Reddit. And, you know, it, it was the trigger for him to realize that he wasn't in the right relationship. And that's, it is so powerful. In the, in the mastery lab, like, you guys have made a dent here now. And so, can you, can you just talk through like just quick high overview of eight dates? Because I highly recommend it. I saw it work really in a powerful way for him. And so can you just quickly hit that? And then maybe like, what should Lisa and I do tonight? Like the repair is kind of done, like a heart, you know, but like, so there's a two parter eight dates and then super actionable, what Lisa and I can do as a proxy for what anyone that is wanting to be better in their relationships do tonight. Yeah. You know, one of the reasons we wrote the eight dates book was because a study was done in the Sloan Center UCLA of dual career couples in Los Angeles. And, you know, these were couples that had children in two careers. And what happened was they just completely ignored the relationship. The relationships had devolved into just this long to-do list that they were getting through together. And they had neglected romance and fun and play and adventure and really kind of sitting down with one of them and saying, Hey, baby, how, how's life treating you? You know, how are you doing? And so we wanted to create these eight dates. So we feel tested these dates where people were prepared for the date and think about questions they wanted to ask their partner on the date to really get those conversation staffs a meaning. So let me say a little more about eight dates and then the other question. So what eight dates is is a roadmap for essential conversations couples might want to have, especially either newer couples or couples who've been together a really long time, but they haven't stayed close. They've gotten more distant from one another. And we had seen a zillion couples like that, which is why we wrote this book. So with each date, you are given a topic to think about. And then on the date, some questions to address with your partner to talk about. And their questions, each chapter is about a particular topic with questions to discuss pertaining to that topic. Some of the topics include things like trust, you know, what tells you that somebody is trustworthy. How do you like conflict to be handled? So conflict is another one, not to have a conflict, but if there's a conflict, how do you want it to be handled? We talk about parenting, we talk about sex. There's also play and adventure, what ways you really like to play. Let's see, there's one on spirituality. Money. And money. Right. Money is another biggie. So each topic is really a way for couples to explore their values, their needs, their experiences, and share those with one another pertaining to each of those topics. That's eight dates. Now, your second question, what can you and Lisa do tonight? This is one thing that you can do. And it's part of our love prescription book. And that is go home and focus entirely on what your partner is doing right, not what they're doing wrong. What are they doing right? Every single thing, whether it's doing the dishes, whether it's making coffee, whether it's helping your son with his homework, whatever it is, and say thank you. Every time you partner, I'm on it. Right. You know, it'd be fun. Maybe I've done this. I just haven't seen it. It'd be fun if we could pull our community together and do a worldwide catch what's good with your partner day or week and capture that in some way, socially. There's something here that would be, it would really move a needle. Very great little experiment. That'd be beautiful. Yeah. You guys are awesome. Yeah, maybe we talk about offline some kind of way, but you guys are awesome. Thank you for being so sound in your science and your research and making it applicable to all of us. And I just want to say, I can't wait to see what you guys do next. And I want to encourage folks that are part of the Fawny Mastery community here to go get these books. And I don't know if your lectures are available to be purchased. I know that as a professional, I was able to be part of your trainings. But where do you want to drive people to? Sure. People can go to www.gotsman.com. That's g-o-t-t-m-a-n.com. And there's lots and lots and lots of stuff that they can find, including actually a software platform. People can go to to learn all the interventions to hear little snippets of information and lectures about how to fight well, how to have great intimacy, etc. It's all there on that software platform. And last but not least, we've just finished a book that I think will be called Fight Right. And that'll be coming out in, I don't know, how long does it take to print? Valentine's Day. Valentine's Day. That's awesome. Hopefully we can have you back on to learn those insights that you're sharing there as well. Thank you. This was a great interview. It was very successful. Thank you. So how about this? How's it ending? Before we go in one sentence, maybe even a word. What is love? Oh, well, first of all, we like to say love is a verb. It's not a noun. It's a verb. And it means placing your partner's feelings, needs, and dreams as either as important as your own, or at times more important than your own and treating your partner accordingly. That is brilliant. Thank you. So on to love, on to the next, and I'm wishing you guys absolutely the very best. Again, thank you for making such a big dent. And John, like maybe I think I might have stepped on your words with the delay here. Did you want to add or did you? No, her definition was perfect. Yeah, it was. Was it? Okay. Thank you guys for making such a massive dent in the world. And I really appreciate it. Thank you, Mike. Thank you, Mike. It was a great interview. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback. If you're looking for even more insights, we have a newsletter we send out every Wednesday. Punch over to findingmastery.com slash newsletter to sign up. This show wouldn't be possible without our sponsors. And we take our recommendations seriously. And the team is very thoughtful about making sure we love and endorse every product you hear on the show. If you want to check out any of our sponsor offers you heard about in this episode, you can find those deals at findingmastery.com slash sponsors. And remember, no one does it alone. The door here at Finding Mastery is always open to those looking to explore the edges and the reaches of their potential so that they can help others do the same. So join our community, share your favorite episode with a friend, and let us know how we can continue to show up for you. Lastly, as a quick reminder, information in this podcast and from any material on the Finding Mastery website and social channels is for information purposes only. If you're looking for meaningful support, which we all need, one of the best things you can do is to talk to a licensed professional. So seek assistance from your health care providers. Again, a sincere thank you for listening. Until next episode, be well, think well, and keep exploring.