The Why's of Climbing & Literally Everything (Feat. Alex Honnold)

Hello, elegant listeners and welcome to Go My Favorite Sports Team. Today, we have another special guest, but before we get into that, I'm Tyler Scheid, I'm the Master of Sports, the Master of Balls and Holes, and I'm joined with my co-host, Markiplier, who knows sports a lot less. This is the third time in front of a guest. He's just said that title, and he doesn't seem embarrassed about it. It's an inside joke that I don't even know where it started, but he just took it to himself. One of our fans called him the Master of Balls and Holes, and he's just like he's really embraced it, so don't mind him. I'm Mark. I don't know sports, but the funny thing is our guest today, Tyler and I both know a little bit about this ourselves. Tyler, more than I, I don't climb outside. I climb inside in a bouldering gyms where there's nice cushy paddings. Tyler's the one that goes outside on actual rocks, and Tyler, you've done a little bit of free-solding yourself, right? Yes, I have two of the flat irons in Boulder, Colorado, I have free-sold. I actually have plans to finish out all of them with my brother here. Hopefully we'll do another one this year and hopefully finish it out within the next couple of years. This is what blows my mind. I can't even fathom the idea of doing this, let alone not being in an air-conditioned building, but we've gone too long. Our guest today is Alex Honald, professional climber, and literally nothing else. We were instructed to say no other defining traits about this man. Yeah, nothing about the Oscar-winning documentary or the fact that he's the only person to ever free solo Yosemite's LCAP. Nothing else, just professional climber extraordinaire. Well, I just climb a lot of things. Why list them all? You just do a lot of climbing. Did you start on rocks or did you go ahead? See our different priorities here, our questions here. Sorry about your question. I didn't know one on Oscar, that's awesome. Yeah, it's quite a crazy tour. A lot of time in Hollywood doing the whole rounds. Was that different? Like, because being a YouTuber's, and sorry Tyler, we'll get to the rock climbing into the second I swear. But being a YouTuber, like the both of us, we don't exist in the traditional Hollywood sphere. I'm like, I go to a red carpet event. I'm the most uncomfortable I've ever been. I hate red carpets. Like, do you feel the same way? Yeah, I definitely felt the same way. Through the whole free solo film tour, I got more comfortable. Basically, it actually felt a lot like a climbing training program. It felt like periodized training because it was six months of non-stop events. And the events progressively got more difficult and bigger. Like, you're going to the audio guild awards, and then you're going to the directors guild awards, and then you're going to the producers awards, and then you're going to the BAFTAs, like the British Academy Awards, and then you go to the actual Oscars, the Academy Awards, and then later we went to the Emmys and all those kinds of things. But basically, each red carpet gets bigger and more intimidating. You basically build up to it. So by the time we were doing the crazy ones, the Oscars, you're kind of like, oh, I did this other thing last week. It literally felt like I was training for it. This is totally insane. As an athlete, one of the things is like a lot of other professional athletes, like for football, basketball, all of that, they're required media time. Most climbers don't generally get media time. At least not very often. Yeah, that's totally fair. Yeah, so did it feel like you were a caged animal, just everybody's watching it, like you're in an aquarium or something, and they're all just kind of like poking at you to get answers? I'm in a little bit. It's funny when you do events. I always think of myself as a piece of meat that's being shipped around the country in a little box. When you're getting put on planes and putting cars and being sent to a little thing, and then you get immediately put in a different car to go to a different thing, I always think of myself as like a rare piece of tuna getting shipped around. You know, it's like you just get put in your can, send somewhere people nibble. This is hilariously relatable because this is exactly how I felt in any event that I've ever gone to. I went to the only thing I've ever gone to besides movie premieres was the Emmys. One of my shows was nominated. The Ghost. One of my shows is nominated. Did you have someone like going in front of you with a little piece of paper that being like, this is who this is? Or did everyone already know you? Yeah, there's always the public that's being like, here's this person, like make sure you get a picture of him. You're kind of like, if they don't know and they don't care, do we need to tell him to care? It's like, it's slightly embarrassing. That's what I said. That's exactly what I said. Time knows. I talk about this one. It's always like, I'm not going to force them to know who I am. If they want a picture, they can get one. I'm not going to ask them because why would I do that? When people ask, like, oh, are you the really famous person or something? You're like, well, if you have to ask, then obviously not. It's like clearly that's no. Because you don't have to ask. When someone sees Leonardo DiCaprio, they're not like, hey, are you that famous guy that was in a movie? They're like, no, that's fucking Leonardo DiCaprio. Are we lucky curse? Yeah, we can curse. That is the craziest thing. And it's just, it just comes from this place of truth. Like, it's just like, why, why all this song and dance for something? And I get the pomp in the circumstance. Like, some people need it and like, it's good to celebrate the project. Because I watched Free Solo and it was a very compelling movie. And I really enjoyed it. But sometimes all of that, the song and dance around everything, just like, taints the original meaning behind it, I think. Like, people that just want to like, celebrate it in terms of the accolades of it instead of actually understanding, like, what went into it. And the kind of sacrifice for it. That drives me insane. And when people celebrate the success of the thing, rather than the thing itself, when you're like, oh, I put years of work, you know, I've been climbing full-time for 27 years. Or something like, basically, I'm 37. Like, basically, I was a 10-year-old. I've been climbing full-time, like, climbing five days a week and like, put my whole life into it, put tons of work into it. And then someone's like, oh, wow, you have so many, you know, ex followers on whatever social media platform. Because you're the guy that freestyles in Yellowstone. And you're like, oh, man, they're like, come on. It's not even, you're like, what? Like, who cares about any of that stuff? Like, I've devoted my whole life to trying to do something at a high level and do it as well as I possibly can. And all you care about is that, you know, like, someone wants to get a selfie with you. You're like, that's so lame. Yeah, exactly. I'm so glad to hear it. Because the, man, I could go endlessly about it because that's also very similar to what I've been doing. Like, we haven't been doing this stuff for as long. Like, I've been doing YouTube for 11 years. And it's just such a violently different world. I approached it just because I loved making shit. And I love the idea of independently making stuff. But when you get to a certain level, there's suddenly this expectation that and assumptions that people have about who you are and what kind of steps you took and like the, or not even ignoring like the steps behind. But I could talk endlessly about that. I'll let Tyler actually talk about the sport at all. Yeah, yeah. So I was actually curious because I know you started rock climbing at a young age. Did you climb trees before you found like rock walls and stuff? Yeah, I climbed everything. Basically, by sheer good fortune, a climbing gym opened in my hometown when I was tenish. And so my parents read about it in the paper and they took me in. And you know, I sort of fell into rock climbing that way. But I was already climbing on buildings and climbing on fences and, you know, trees. I just loved, you know, the movement of getting up on things and playing around. I love the air. Like, I love being up high. No, that was me as a kid too. No, sorry Tyler. Yeah, I'll let you talk. You're good. You're good. It's really funny because did you ever get in trouble doing that? Because I grew up with my brother and my brother did the same thing. My brother is a lot of the reason why I got into climbing. I did scouts and some of that other stuff. But my brother was climbing trees when I was really little. And so I started following up him up the trees. As we got older, he started getting kicked out of parks and different things for climbing on stuff. Did that ever happen to you? Yeah, I mean, I'm sure I, I don't know. I don't actually remember getting in serious trouble though I broke my arm a couple of times as a kid falling off of play structures and falling out of trees and things. I don't know. I mean, I actually now have a daughter who's a year and a quarter. And I got to say raising a kid. I'm like, I really think that climbing is a pretty elemental movement pattern. Like it's basically, you know, it's innate. Like everybody likes to climb. Like kids are all into it. I mean, she loves clamoring up on things and like getting up and exploring. I kind of think that that's innate in all humans. But you just learn, you learn your way out of it. You know, you sort of develop fear. You get told not to. You get told that it's dangerous. And so people sort of learn their way away from it. Which is such a silly thing because it is very fundamental. I think it's proven that like kids have greater grip strength than anything else just because they need to like hold on to their parents or whatever. But as I was a kid, I was doing the same thing. I was jumping up foam on play sets and stuff like that. I broke my arm having a how far out the monkey bars. Can you jump? Exactly. Exactly. But it kind of all ended and I think like the reason I'm so like fear of verse now is because I was having a how how far up the stairs. Can you jump contest with my brother? And we set up, you know, couch cushions at the bottom. And I bounced off of the couch cushions. Apparently, I don't remember this. And my head went right into the corner of the railing. And then you apparently blood everywhere. And again, don't remember the thing. I woke up in the emergency room being like, what happened? But ever since then, I've never climbed up on it as much stuff as I did in the past. But I still love climbing. I still love going to the gym. I just, I'm very much of the mind like Tyler's crazy. And his brother's crazier for all of the kind of stuff they do. And I guess by association, I'm calling you crazy for what you do. Yeah. So then therefore I must be super crazy. Oh, yeah. Things I'm doing here in a different category at them. But when you get past a certain amount of crazy, it just it's all the same crazy. It's all the same crazy. It's all the same crazy. Yeah. Go up here. Yeah. What what gym do you climb in? Oh, I live in LA. So there's a few places. Stronghold that we Tyler now used to go stronghold. And then there's this new one, another touchstone place. It opened up nearby here. Cliffs of it or the, or the Hollywood boulders. I've been to Hollywood boulders. Yeah. I, there's one out in Pasadena that just opened up. That's pretty nice. I like that one. There's a new touchstone gym in Pasadena. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's right. It's actually in Altadena. And it's got about like 50 foot rope walls. Tyler, I actually meant to tell you that they actually have pretty high rope walls. And I think they even have like a lead climbing course. I've never done any of that. Tyler taught me how to tie a figure eight like six years ago. So I'm very new to all of this. Tyler got me into it actually. Yeah. Getting into top rope and doing that stuff, which is primarily what I've climbed. My brother does trad and he does sport climbing as well. But trad is the part that just baffles me, just the ability to understand and carry all of that equipment and put it in. The, the part that terrifies me and I don't know if you feel the same way. For whatever reason, I feel more comfortable without the equipment than I do with it. That just means you don't know how to use the equipment yet. I was the same way. No, no, no. I was the exact same way when I learned how to, to trad climb like when I learned how to play gear. Because at that point, I'd already been climbing in the gym for 10 years. And I was already like quite a good climber. And so I felt confident in my climbing. But I just didn't trust the gear at all because I hadn't really used it. I hadn't fallen on it. And so it was hard to believe that some of these little pieces of metal would, would catch me if I fell, you know, 20 feet onto them or something. Right. And so then you wind up climbing in such a way. You, you basically are almost pretending that you don't have a rope and you don't have gear. Because you trust your ability to climb, but you don't trust anything else in the system. And you're like, oh, Jesus is so scary. But then over time, you, you know, you wind up taking this fall as you learn that the gear does all work. It all holds properly. Like, you know, you learn to trust yourself and how well you can place the gear. And, and then eventually climbing on gear winds up feeling about the same as climbing on, on bolts. Like, you know, sport climbing or climbing in a jam or whatever else. It's like, once you really trust all the elements of the system, it all just feels like climbing. And actually, as, as you were just starting to talk about, you know, the different types of climbing that you do, I mean, you know, if this is a sporting podcast and we're actually talking about like sports more broadly, I think it's actually kind of important to, to note that, you know, there are a bunch of different, as like aspects of climbing, they're, they're a lot of different sub disciplines. But fundamentally, they're all just climbing. They're all moving your body over rock or plastic. Running is running. You can do it at different distances at different intensities. But it's like the form is basically the same. You're still moving your body in the same way. And so I think climbing is basically just climbing. The other things are a matter of, you know, things that you learn, like how to use the gear, like learning the medium, like the different types of rock and things like that, like changing styles. But it's like climbing is fundamentally always the same. I mean, also with like longer climbs, the ability to understand where you can take an opportunity to rest and kind of relax one hand and get, get that pump a little bit subdued for a moment so that you can get back into it. Like that's one of the things that I've always had to struggle with because I have a fear of heights. And it's, it's weird being a climber that has a fear of heights. Though there are a surprising number of climbers that are afraid of heights. I think that's not uncommon. Oh, really? Yeah, but I think they're just, well, a lot of people will get into climbing because they're trying to manage a fear of heights in some ways. Yeah. You know, or people are really afraid of it. So they go to the gym trying to tackle their fears and then, and then they really like climbing for whatever reason. They like the movement. They like the problem solving component. Or they just like pushing past their fear and, you know, sort of overcoming that, that part of himself. But it's, it's definitely common to meet people who are passionate climbers who also say they're afraid of heights. Though fundamentally, you're probably better off not being afraid of heights. If you want to be a climber, you know, you can turn that switch off. You know, why are you bringing that up with you on the mountain? I know in the free soul of thing, they, they did them or I and everything and looked into your stimulation as far as, like, fears and stuff go and yours is like requires a lot more. Do you feel like that gives you an advantage? Or do you think that fear actually adds a focus element to it? I mean, there's a level in which fear can be paralyzing, but there's a level in which it makes you so much more aware. Yeah, actually, so that scene in free solos is a little oversimplified, I think, and that was taken. I was actually there with the print journalist. This guy was writing for Nautilus Magazine, which is like this science magazine. And they were sort of doing like a deeper dive into how my brain responds to fear and things. And so I think that the scene in the film is maybe not taking out a context, but just a little too short and too, too pity. You know, we were like, oh, well, he just doesn't feel fear. And you're like, well, really, I think that that the takeaway from that whole experience was more that I've sort of desensitized myself to a certain level of stimulus over time. And so it's not so much that I don't experience fear. It's just that I wasn't really registering from that test. Because, you know, the test that we were doing to measure fear, you're looking at black and white pictures in an MRI tube. Yeah, you're not on a rock face or anything like that. Yeah, exactly. Like I've conditioned myself to a higher level of fear response or a different level. You know, looking at a picture, I mean, typically that still registers the same part in a brain for people. But if you've spent the last 10 or 15 years of your life consistently being really scared for your own safety, like clearly a picture isn't going to do it for you. You know, I feel fear. It just takes a lot more to, you know, like I actually have to feel like I'm in danger to feel fear. That's such a funny description because literally my career for the past 10 years, I've been playing nothing but horror games. So I also have conditioned myself to be a lot more tolerant of scares and loud noises than I was 10 years ago. But that doesn't mean that I'm less scared of anything. It's just like if you show me a scary picture or play a scary game, it takes more to get me scared. I'll be just as scared towards the end of it if I can get there. But it's just like, yeah, it is that kind of desensitization if you do something for so long. And you're probably just as afraid of public speaking or whatever, like snakes or, you know, random other things that people are afraid of. It's like just because you've really conditioned yourself in some ways doesn't mean that you're not afraid of anything else. You know, it's like you're probably still afraid of commitment or whatever, you know, afraid of like... Why are you speaking to that? How are you staring? Exactly. We're getting called out here. Yeah. I mean, that's the thing that people are like, oh, well, he just doesn't feel fear. And you're like, no, I've just, you know, there are certain things that are not as scary as they used to be. And even that, I know is a conditioned response over time because I remember when certain aspects of climbing used to be incredibly scary. And now, you know, 20 years later, they just feel pretty normal and pretty routine or whatever. It's like anything you do a lot of if you get good at. Yeah. Yeah. And you still climb regularly. So do you find yourself climbing more in gyms or you're going out and climbing on the rock faces nearby? No, I'm climbing outside as much as I can. I mean, you know, when I travel for work or anything, if I'm doing events, then I'll go to the gym. But I probably climb five days a week. When I'm at home, then it's almost entirely on rock because I live outside Las Vegas. And there's like limitless good rock that you can climb year round. You know, it just depends where I am and what time of year and everything. But basically, I climb all the time. You know, it's funny. My one takeaway from washing free solo was, yeah, you climbed a mountain. That was super cool. Man, your van was sick. Oh, yeah. It put this desire for me to have like a fully converted van that I could just tour around the country and go wherever I want. Like take all my equipment with me, like just build out and live in a van. For a while there before I'd even seen the movie, I did like this video series where I bought a five a van for $5,000. Someone had kidded it out and had a bed in the back of it. And I just like became infatuated with this idea of like having all that I have on the road. And I still want to, I still haven't gotten like a really good one or converted one myself. Like do you still have the van? That's the question. Well, so actually I accidentally flipped the van that was in free solo, but was totally fine. But then it turns out that my wife was, we found out my wife is pregnant right after. So we kind of need a different van anyway, because we need a kid seat. We need like a chair and a kid's bed and all that. So now we have a different van, which with a little kids room. And actually next week we're going to be going on the road for for the whole month of June going climbing in Washington. So yes, we'll be full, full van life again for a while. I mean, we tend to do maybe a couple months a year in the van still. Do you feel like now that you're a father, it's kind of changed how you approach things? Are you still doing the same stuff and putting yourself out there in the same ways? I mean, I'm still basically doing the same things. You know, I mean, obviously being a father has changed how I spend my time. Actually, I mean, the biggest day to day difference is that when I go to the cliff now, I'm just in a little bit more of a hurry where I like hustle to the cliff, get my climbing and hustle home just to just sort of minimize my time away when possible. When you're like a mid 20s single guy living in a car, you just spend the whole day hanging out at the cliff because you're like, well, I'm just going back to my car anyway, like what else? You know, you just like hang out at the cliff. Now I'm trying to spend as much time at home as possible, as much time with with the family as possible while still doing the same amount of climbing. Yeah, just being more strategic about things. Still climbing all the same stuff though. So I have a question that's just hearing you talk about in this way is interesting because what I what I sometimes think about is being a public facing figure. I know that I have this kind of influence on people. I hate the term influencer and like stuff like that, but I know that there is an influence in terms of inspiring people and inspiring people to do what I do and people ask me all the time like how do I get started and like making YouTube videos and whatever have you. But with what you do specifically, it's different. And even I'd say it's different than like with some sports where you know, it's a sport and it's dangerous. But with free solo in particular, it's a free solo in particular. It's exceptionally dangerous. And yet given the popularity of the movie, I'm sure people were inspired about it. Do you ever think about the idea that you are inspiring people and something that I have a lot of trouble with sometimes as I'm inspiring people and they ask me and I know that not all of them will succeed but I would never discourage anyone from doing that. And yet the penalty for failure in doing your particular activity is extremely dangerous. Do you ever think about that or wrestle with that at all? And if you don't want to talk about this totally fine because it's like a bit of a grim subject. No, no, I'm pretty unstressed about that kind of thing. I mean, I do think that there's responsibility to the public facing person to sort of be a good role model, I guess. The thing with free soloing though is I actually I think it's probably more comparable to sort of the inspiration that people get from mainstream sport stars than you might think because I think when people watch the NBA, you know, if somebody's like inspired by LeBron James, they're not inspired to go out and play basketball. They're just inspired in a general sense of pursuing excellence and doing the best they can and the things that they're interested in. And certainly with the film free solo, when it was still in theaters and I was doing all these movie events, you know, you talked to audience, you know, I was doing so many film events. And so you meet all these audiences and people like, oh, I'm so inspired. But none of them are inspired to go free soloing. They're all inspired to do this difficult thing that they want to in their life. Or, you know, they're inspired to sign up for that first half marathon that they've been thinking about, but haven't been doing because it seems too daunting. You know, it's like, I think the thing with free soloing is that it helps people put, you know, their own challenges into perspective a little bit. But nobody sees the film, they're like, I'm going to do that. And, you know, I know that because I mean, this is kind of a longer conversation about climbing and risk taking and whatever. But over the 25 plus years that I've been a climber, that kind of danger side of climbing has almost died out. Like, basically nobody does that anymore. Like, nobody is doing the extreme climbing. Like, free soloing is less common than it used to be. Speed climbing is way less common than it used to be. Like, basically, like, certain aspects of climbing that are more dangerous are just not popular anymore. And they're not cool and like, nobody's doing them. And, you know, I remember 10 or 15 years ago, they were definitely more cool and more people were into it. It's like now, I mean, with the growth of gym climbing and sort of indoor climbing culture and like climbing going into the Olympics, things like that, it's just not, people might watch free solo and get all inspired. But they're just not actually going out and doing anything dangerous. Like, I don't feel bad about inspiring the wrong, I don't know. Because also, I kind of think that the main takeaway from the film is that if you're going to do something difficult, put a ton of freaking work into it, like, take your time, prepare for it, and, you know, eventually try to try to live your dream or not to be too cliche, too hokey. But it's like, you know, that's something that I wanted to do for 10 years. I want to put in two years of concentrated effort into training for a very high level and then eventually being able to do. You know, I'm like, that's not a terrible lesson for people to take from a film. My favorite moment in the film was actually when you stopped when you were going for your first run of trying to actually free solo it. And you stopped and were like, I'm just, I'm just not feeling it and you felt off. And you were just like, I want to get down and not do it today. Because you just something, it just what didn't feel right. And that to me was all inspiring in the fact of like acknowledging your feelings, acknowledging yourself and being like, it's just not right. And I don't want to try and force myself through it. You took that opportunity to take that break and take a step back and then re-evaluate and then continue pursuing it. Some days just aren't your day. You know, you got to make sure you're choosing the right day. And I think that's actually a big difference between climbing and other sports. If, you know, if we're really talking about sports on this podcast, I mean, the thing with climbing is that you can always choose your day. You know, most, most a hole in, or ball and hole sports, like you're the master of, you don't really get to choose your day. You know, like you have to perform on whatever day somebody tells you to. And if it's not your day, then you just lose. And you know, you're like, oh, that's a bummer. But the thing with climbing is, is if you're in tune with your own, I hate to say your own feelings, whatever, but you sort of been touched with yourself. You can kind of tell when it's your time to shine. Yeah. And that's what that's why I like really respect about everything you do. And that's why I respect about climbing and why I kind of gravitated towards it from Tyler's inspiration is this because it is just you against a wall. You know, it's really you against yourself. And it's all internal and not that I don't like team sports. I haven't had a lot of chance to play many team sports throughout my life. But in a lot of ways, it relates to what I do with content creation and what I love about it is like, I have editors and I have a team. And I just got off filming like a movie with a big crew and all that. But the real part of it that I love is coming back into this room and just being able to apply myself and test my skills and push myself and reach new levels of integration, see what I can explore, what skills I can build, because I love the craft part of it. And I think like there's no pure explanation of that when you with rock climbing is just like it's so clear. You are the only one there. I don't I don't usually climb with friends most of the time. Sometimes how and I will go together, but it's just like it's you against a wall. And it's very able to just get in your head. And I think I think like that's a freeing moment that many people are probably scared of to be able to just be with themselves for that long. But it's like to me, that's like, that's a beautiful moment. That's I mean, that's definitely one of the things that a lot of people love about climbing though is that it that it can force them to be fully focused on a task at hand. So they're not distracted. They're not thinking about other things. They're just performing. It's just them in their body doing a thing. I mean, that's certainly one of the things I love about climbing is that you're just climbing. One of your one of our audience members occasionally we give them some breakfast and allow them to ask some questions. And one of them kind of asks like if it wasn't rock climbing. If somehow rock climbing never existed. It never wasn't around in your life. Is there another sport that you think you would have gravitated towards? It's hard to say I just don't love anything else the way I love climbing. You know, maybe I could have gotten into like mountain running and things like that. Like I like scrambling in the mountains, you know mountain biking, like skiing to some extent, like getting around in those kinds of in that kind of terrain. But it's hard to say because, you know, I kind of love all those things now that I'm that I've been a full time climbing my whole life. And so I've just spent so much time in the mountains. But you know, when I was growing up, I was growing up in suburban California. And I was just bicycling to the climbing gym. You know, the world of mountain running was so far removed from anything I knew about. It's like hard to imagine how I ever would have fallen into those kinds of things without climbing as this as this avenue. I don't know. I mean, I was definitely on track to just become an engineer and have a normal job. And, you know, I got, I mean, I dropped out of university after a year to go climbing. And, you know, if I hadn't been a passionate climber, I'd probably be working as a civil engineer right now. That is that is weirdly familiar. I dropped out of engineering school to first. I have five medical engineering myself. But I got four years in. Where were you going? I was going to university since an adi. I was just like, yeah, my mom, my set mom worked at like Turner construction company. So originally I was going in for civil engineering too. But I said, fuck that. And then I went to an even harder engineering course. And I did four years of that. And then I started like, man, I really got to do some on my own. And that's when I picked up YouTube after trying a few different things first. But yeah, it's just like that feeling of, man, there's something that I love. There's something that I really love that I never knew existed. I didn't have video creation even when I was a kid because my I didn't have cameras or anything like that. But it's like when you find that thing you love, that's why I'm so hesitant. And I asked that other questions because I'm still like, I tell everyone that ask me like, how do I start? I'm like, go for it. Go for it today. Like start. Like do it. You may fail. You may not. But it's like the most important thing is to do it and find it. Because when you find that one thing that you love that you you can't do without that you would be happy to do every day. Of your life for and you'd be happy like sliding into the grave doing that thing if you could just get one more day. That's a beautiful moment. And I know so many people out there don't get that whether it's climbing or football or whatever sport or whatever activity. There's so many people out there that don't even take the first step to try. And I only ever encourage people to take that even if even if failures on their eyes and like it's you never know. Honestly, I mean, I'm only a year into parenting, but I'm starting to think that that is the number one thing that the number one role of a parent is to help your child find anything that they care about that much. Like to find any kind of passion, like to find things that they're excited about, things that get them out of bed, things that make them want to try hard and like push themselves. You know, whether that's sport or whether that's, you know, art or hopefully not content creation for my daughter, but you know what to say. But I mean, but basically anything that gets her up gets her motivated, like gets her passionate, you know, because like you only have your one life, you may as well do stuff that you care about that you enjoy doing your whole life. I mean, I'm so fortunate that I've had climbing to put all my energy into my entire life. I mean, I think I'm starting to realize now what a gift it's been just to like something that inspires you enough to lead a healthy lifestyle and like, you know, get enough sleep. And like, basically like lead your best life, you know, like go to bed early, wake up early, like try your hardest and like have a really nice day. And you're like, you know what? Like how, how great is it that I found this thing that I love doing enough that it like keeps me on a good track for my whole life. It's like it's, yeah, I'm freaking love climbing. Tyler, what's your thing that gets you out of bed every day? What's your passion? Holes and balls or balls and holes or whatever. Oh, yeah, you know, that's, that's ultimately a master of master of balls and holes. Yeah, I mean, the only reason that kind of came up is it was a joke in an early episode of the podcast when I was talking about my master's hearing sport administration. And for the longest time, it was all the variety of sports. For me, it's, it's meeting people and being able to talk to them and hear about what inspires them and finding out, you know, being able to touch somebody's life in a way to where you make an impact or they make an impact on you and being able to learn and expand and socialize. I'm weird. I'm an extrovert, but I've always found value more in people than anything else. And so I really enjoy being able to create stuff and help other people and being able to make the world kind of a better place or even just make somebody's day. If I have an opportunity to make somebody stay in any way, I like to take that opportunity. And that's always been like the biggest reason I like getting out of bed is like, who am I going to meet today, who am I going to talk to, whether it's an Uber driver or whoever, I really enjoy getting to know the person. See, I don't get that at all. Yeah, I don't either, but I was just thinking like, this is why it's so important that I think for as a parent that you hope your your child, like, find the thing that they care about because you never really know what's going to be the passion to get somebody out of bed. It's like, people just have to try things and find their thing. You know, it's like, I'm definitely an introvert and that kind of stuff sounds like a nightmare to me. You know, like, oh, man, like that's, that's not what gets me out of bed. But, you know, I'm glad that I'm glad that you're psyched on it. You know, it's like, that's the thing is there's no such thing as too much passion in the world. You know, people should be fired up on what they're doing. That's just like, and that is the fascinating thing is like, because why me and Tyler work so well, because we are very much opposite in certain ways. But we also come together in like very, very specific categories. Like we do anything if like loyal to a fallen and all this stuff. He's got great characters, but talking to people. I can't do that shit. So he's very good at like going out there and just meeting a random dude and keeping up with people. I'm awful with that. Yeah. Can't do anything about that. But, and also sports. He knows sports real good. A master. I mean, a master. Yeah, exactly. Hey. How are you? I'm fine. I've been working again. Oh, no. How long? Two weeks. Come on. Come on. That's going to be faster. You think. Ah, obviously. You're also going to get a job when you're in love. Then you come to Lufthansa Group. Over 50 Ausbildungsberuwe. From IT, you know about Technik to the cockpit. Fly big. On Lufthansa Group from Korea. Obviously, when you're super passionate about something, you never really get burned out. When I went to grad school, for the longest time, I got burned out of sport, not necessarily because of being required to watch all these sports and be around all of these sports, but I got burned out because I felt like the sports industry turned its back on me. Was there ever a moment where you, because in climbing, that doesn't really happen, but there's a giant community within climbing. Did you ever feel at any point like growing up or throughout your career that you felt kind of ostracized or different or like you weren't involved or included in that way? No, basically no. You know, I've never had great social skills. I mean, I've sort of learned them as I've gone. And you know, because of things like the free solo movie, where I've gone way more comfortable speaking to groups and speaking to audiences and whatever. And so I think in part of us just mature and becoming an adult and having a wife now, and you know, I'm way better. I have better social skills than I used to, but certainly when I was young, I was a bit of a tweaker. You know, like I was not good. I was very shy, kind of a loner. You know, I mean, I was not well-adjusted. That's not to say that the community wasn't good to me. I mean, basically like the climbing community has always been my, you know, I mean, really it's been my only community. I mean, I joke that, you know, I only have like one friend from childhood left over who's like a non-climber. You know, it's like I went to school with a bunch of people from like second grade through 12, like kind of one program. So there were a bunch of people that I knew for my whole life. And you know, only one of them still remains, like everyone else I know now is like in the climbing community or, you know, long-term climbing friend. It's like, I mean, the climbing world is my entire life and it has been for, for 20 years. So it's like it's basically everything. It's hard for me to even separate that kind of stuff because it's like climbing has been my entire life. It's like literally everything is wrapped around the climbing community. Have you ever done an ice climbing at all? Yeah, very poorly. I mean, I'm, you know, I can't ice climb, but I'm, I don't like it and I'm not any good at it. That's, it's an interesting question Tyler about the ostracization because in, in the YouTube community, which is a fucking nightmare, like don't Alex. Don't start a YouTube channel like this. But there are times like I've felt not incorporated in the YouTube community because I don't really like, I don't really interact with a lot of other YouTubers. There's, there's many YouTubers that I respect and there's many YouTubers that I, I don't, but it's like, I'd never even talked to the people that I don't. So I've always felt a part of the community, but I wonder Tyler because, and I know, like Alex is a guest here, but Tyler, honest question here is like, do you think that your feeling of ostracization is like part of you being an extrovert and therefore wanting to get feedback from other people and like, so you would be more sensitive to that? Because I'm sure there are tons of people in the YouTube community that don't hate my guts and would like want me to fail and not be a part of their stuff, but I also don't pay them any mind because I am introverted and I am more focused just on me and the people I do care about. Do you feel like you are more sensitive to that because you are extroverted and more in tune with the people around you? I could fully believe that. I mean, the main thing for me is I couldn't find a job coming out of getting my master's green stuff like that. That's an interesting question because I think my wife is way more extroverted and way more attuned to that kind of stuff. Like social things and like whether or not other people are happy and if they care and like, was that person offended by this thing that happened and it all just goes right over my head. Like, I just don't see or hear any of it and I just don't care. You know, I'm like completely untroubled by it all. And I'm like, you know, maybe that is a fundamental personality thing where it's like, oh, if you're a little more extroverted, you just notice that stuff more. And part of that is like, Mark and I have had that conversation. It's like his ability to just kind of focus on the stuff that he cares about and let the outside noise fall away. I feel like that's an advantage that you guys have that I feel like I end up hearing and paying attention to the outside noise because I'm more in tune with it. And so being able to focus in on just kind of what you're passionate about could be a major advantage of for you guys and being able to pursue your endeavors. Yeah, I mean, that's beauty of really finding a passion having something that you can be so focused on that all the noise doesn't matter. Because I mean, honestly, so much of the modern world is noise. You know, it's like random stuff clamoring for your attention, but stuff that doesn't really matter and isn't going to enrich your life. And like, when you die, you're not going to remember and you're not going to care about so many of the random little things. It's like it's nice to have something to you care about enough that those distractions fall away. Yeah, and I often find that and I've talked to Tyler about this, but when it comes down to let's say negative comments on YouTube, there's many other creators that like they pay attention to that and they feel really impacted by it. But I've always I've always had the thing where I see it and I gloss over that's what Tyler's talking about because I don't know them and they don't know me. Therefore I instinctively don't pay any attention to it, but if say Tyler said something critical to me or my girlfriend said something critical to me, it would it would kill me would hit me so much harder. So it's like not that I don't feel do you ever feel that where it's like the people that you do care about, it's like amplified in a way versus like everything else is noise, but the things that you do care about really strike deep. I don't know if it's necessarily amplified, but I'm totally the same and that you know, I mean, of course with the things that I do, you get a lot of public opinion on like, oh, that's, you know, like he's a bad role model, that's a bad example, like this is stupid, like he's wasting his life, like, you know, whatever. But all those kind of comments, you know, yeah, they don't know you, you don't know them. They're just like randomly shouting into the void, you're like, who cares, you know, like everybody can have their opinion, like it doesn't matter. But certainly the opinion of my peers matters a lot more, you know, like if climbers that I deeply respect, though actually I've never really had like any drama like that in the climbing world. But yeah, I certainly care more about what my friends think. And that's kind of the thing like when, you know, when you do something hard as a climber and you, you know, it's like put out there like either a film thing or whatever is like, oh, I did this hard thing. You know, like the public response doesn't really matter nearly as much as the response of your friends, because if your friends text you being like, whoa, I can't believe you did that thing, then you're like, okay, like that's proud. You know, it's like really, you just want to impress your friends. Oh, that's, that's so awesome to hear. I've met very few people who think in a similar way. And it's like to me, it's common sense because it's like, I tried to sell my like failed contiguous all the time. Like those comments don't matter. You don't know them. They're probably just like kids, like you said screaming into the void. It's just like the internet is just a big echo chamber of box that people shout into. It doesn't mean you have to listen to it. And that kind of negativity half the time or like, I mean, some of the time anyway, it's probably not even people that are that negative about whatever you did. It's like people trying to get a comment, trying to get a rise, trying to get you to respond to them. It's like basically people looking for some kind of connection basically. I feel like on social media platforms, like half of the biggest haters are really just people that want you to engage with them in some way because they're like kind of into it. And they just want a connection. And you know, you're sort of like, like if I could just give you a hug, it would all be fine. You know, but as I said, it's going to turn into some flame war online. And I'm like, you know, I just don't need to worry about it. I just don't need to worry about it. I'll just like pretend I gave my hug and call it good and move on. It's fine. I mean, obviously when you like you climb and climbing with people watching as one thing, climbing with all the cameras and everything around, how did you find like, I imagine times and times and times of repetitions where you had the film crew for different different climbs that you had done and everything like that. How nerve wracking was it to try and figure out how to document it without getting in the way and making sure that you could still remain focused, especially with LCAP and some of these free solos you've done, like seeing something out of the corner of your eye and it catching your attention could make like a whole world of difference between life and death in those situations. I mean, you obviously worked really closely with the camera team and everything like that, but did it take a lot of practice before to be able to get comfortable? A little bit. I mean, maybe less than you might think. And so one thing, you know, I mean, and people sometimes frame the question kind of as you did, it's like, oh, if they're people all over the wall or their cameras all over. But so in the film free solo, when I did the free solo LCAP, I forget now, but maybe five or six people on the wall spread over a 3000 foot face. So that basically means that every 500 feet or so, there was like a dude. And also all the camera people are all really good close friends and people that I climb with routinely and trust. But the thing is, if you're passing one person every 500 feet of rock climbing, it does not feel very crowded. You know, you're sort of like, you're climbing are really freaking long ways. And then you like see one of your buddies and he's hanging 20 feet off to the side to get like a certain angle, like get some red wide shot or whatever. And you're kind of like, hey, and you know, in general, everybody else on the wall, I'm like, psych to see them because you're like covering oceans of granite by yourself. And then you're like, hey, buddy. And then they're gone again. And then you have another 500 feet by yourself. So it definitely doesn't feel like it changes the experience that much. Like you're still very much alone up there. But you just get a few moments where you get to see some friends. But it did take, as you said, it took a little bit of practice to get to that point. And so for me and the film crew to figure out what the best locations were for them, like what's the least intrusive, you know, where they could have their ropes out of the way. There were a lot of sort of logistical questions of like, how do you get in and out of position without it being in the way? But those are the things that we had all, those are problems that we had solved over the two years that I had to work on the route anyway. Because it took me a lot of time just practicing to figure out how to do the climbing. So while we worked on that, we figured out all the camera positions, figured out the strategy. Yeah, I mean, on the actual day when I did it, I mean, I was pretty psyched to be up there with my friends. You know, it felt like we had all been working on the project as a team. And you know, it's pretty freaking cool. Like, I mean, fun little story. So Jimmy Chin, the co-director of the film, was filming in one of the sort of key locations, 600 feet down from the summit. And when I passed him and made it around this corner, from there to the top was like kind of easier climbing. I mean, it's still challenging, but I knew I was in there and I knew it was fine. And so the final 600 feet were kind of like victory lap style, where I felt like I was just cruising to the top and having a good time. And Jimmy kind of asked me to wait for him so that he could be on the summit to get like the like you're getting to the top shot, you know, which is like sort of an important shot. There was another guy who would hike to the top who would be there, you know, to have a camera. But Jimmy wanted to be there to like capture the moment. But I had my phone going in my pocket with Timer. And I knew that I was going to be close to breaking four hours, which I mean, it was going to be a speed record no matter what. But I kind of wanted to go sub four because it's just cool to climb El Cap with no rope and under four hours. I was like, this is epic. You know, so I was kind of like, yeah, Jimmy, like I can wait for you for a minute. But I'm not going to wait too long because I want to break four. It wound up being 356, you know, so I didn't have like that much time to spare. And so I started climbing the final 600 feet. And he was ascending ropes around this corner. And so I could hear him, like I could hear his gear jangling and everything. And so he's like, hoofing it. You know, he's like breathing super loudly, trying to ascend rope as fast as he can. He's like, I'm trying to like get up. And I was like cruising up the rock. I was totally, you know, at that point, I was like peak performance feeling incredible because I was past all the hard parts. I was having a good time. I was like incredibly attuned to it. And so I was making these little bird whistles for him so that he could hear where I was so that he could like keep pace basically. You know, I felt like I was basically chasing him for the wall. I mean, like faster, Jimmy, faster, you know, as he's trying to get to the top. And it's like basically we're all up there having a great time. And so by the time I get to the top, you know, he made it up a few minutes ahead of me. He looked like he's going to frickin' die. You know, he's like going to have a frickin' heart attack because he's like ascending these free hanging ropes as fast as he can. And I get up and I'm like, what a great experience. You know, so in that way, I think when done well, having a crew around documenting it doesn't really change. You know, it's basically you and your friends having this incredible experience together in nature. Like it's still a pretty good time. Yeah, it's like making something and building something and having them there to see something that you've pushed yourself to do and work so hard to do. It's then you get that celebration moment at the end. I mean, in that case, especially we had all worked so hard on it. You know, because the film crew had been helping me carry ropes up and down and equip ropes and pull them up and down on the cliff. I mean, it's just a lot of hard physical labor that we'd all been doing together for literally years. It's just great to feel like the whole team is, you know, by sheer good luck. The next day in eSemony was a Sunday and they do this crazy Sunday brunch at the fancy hotel in eSemony. And so the entire crew and everybody all went to Sunday brunch and just freaking gorge. It was like a nice, you know, sort of rap party celebration like holy shit. We did this thing. Now we're going to go eat like a new tele filled French toast until we all die. It's so fascinating. It's one of my favorite lines from the movie. Besides the van, of course, I love the van. It was just like that moment where you look at the camera towards two-thirds of the way and you're just going, like, I'm not dead yet. That's one of my favorite lines. Because it's just like, yeah, it is just kind of like you're just making joke. And it's just like casually going up there. But then I was just like, because this is my ignorance. I never do research before any of this stuff. So I'm looking at the free solo Wikipedia page. I just read the most nonsensical sentence in the controversy section. I don't know if you have ever gone in. No, I didn't know there was one. Now I'm going to open it right now. There's a controversy around the free solo. It's hilarious. But I'm going to open it right now. I'm like, what the heck? Yeah, it's some analysis from Simon Frazier University professor of history and geography. Not a climber, apparently. But it makes me think that people buy in too much into what the story and what the movie and the emotions of the movie is. Because obviously a movie needs to have drama and needs to have heightened emotion. And there's got to be risk and danger to it. And naturally there is. But it's just this quote at the end here is Taylor Eko's Benson allot's allot in the description of Hawnald's challenges and risks throughout the film. Quote, make no mistake. We are watching the co commodification of actuarial suicide. And I'm like, the fuck does that sentence even mean? It's just like the most nonsensical things that people will say and try to analyze about what amounts to a very difficult and yes risky thing. But done in the most professional safest way possible. Like just because something's dangerous doesn't mean that it shouldn't be done in my mind. And there are different levels of that. But that entirely depends on the person's ability and confidence in their own skill to do it. And so obviously you did it and it was filmed beautifully and the movie was crafted. And yet people can like take these weird opinions out of it that are in no way any part of the actual creative process. No, it's funny to say that. So now I just pulled up the way I'm going to have to read this a length later. I'm like, so interesting. But so surprisingly actually his take there is not that far off sort of my personal opinion on some sports as well. Because like, I mean, throughout the film, actually, I don't know if you remember in the film free solo, there's this long rant. They're sort of like long. What do you even call that? Just like, I give this sort of solo like we like I give this talk in the middle where I'm talking about a like warrior spirit and like warrior culture sort of stuff. Like, you know, you have to be a warrior. It's slightly embarrassing for me to hear it now because that came from some climbing we were doing in Morocco. Basically we were doing this like month of hard climbing. And I was like by myself. I mean, we were filming, but I was like staying by myself and all my downtime. I was watching this show a Spartacus like some slave uprising is basically like sex and violence like mindless television. The HBO one. Yeah, or no, it was like stars or something I think like it was something like kind of trashy, but like kind of amazing. You know, it's like perfect mindless distraction when you're doing like hard physical thing all day and then you go back to your room. You just watch people like I quote. I think I quote that all the time because it's like just a Jupiter spreads cheek to ram cock and ask like I just quote that all the time randomly to my friends. And they have no idea what I'm talking about like it's from this fucking weird. I can't explain where it comes from. Well, so I was watching that show. There's basically about gladiators and it was kind of like, you know, I couldn't help but feel like filming free souling was like modern blood sport sort of stuff because you're basically. And I actually think that even more so with mainstream sports like like American football and things. Oh, yeah. Like this is basically like modern gladiators where it's like people are for sure getting injured. You know, when you think of all the freaking brain injury stuff and like crazy. It's just crazy how much money goes into watching people hurt each other for entertainment. You know, and that is kind of the tension in the film free solos like, oh, like is he going to die? You know, it's like you're watching because you're sort of like, oh, is this person like is this a snuff film? You're like, this is pretty hardcore. I mean, obviously, I don't see it that way because you know, I'm doing it for the passion of climbing and for the challenge of it. And you know, because what climbing is given to my life. But if you're just looking at as an entertainment product, you are like, oh, this is kind of hard core like this is kind of crazy. I mean, I think maybe one of the differences is that free solo the film is a bit of a one off sort of thing. You know, it's like you just can't make films like that all the time. There isn't like free solo two and free solo three. It's like it basically documents like a unique moment in my life as opposed to other sorts of mainstream sports where it's like every Sunday people go out and just like club each other on the head as hard as they can. And you're like, that's kind of crazy. Yeah. And that's what I think from that quote is like the commodification of actual aerial suicide. It's beautifully worded. But it's like, yeah, the commodity is like what typical sports are today. And not that it's a bad thing like there's entertainment to be had about it. But it's like it buying into what I was saying about like the story of free solo is is the movie as an entertainment product. And then the actuality of it is like the climbing of it and the reason for it. But that's fascinating that like that that this this view and tying it into other sports is like, yeah, it is, I guess it is like very similar to that. In terms of there's something based human about wanting to look at a car crash. You know, they want to know what the end is when they can distance themselves from it and turn it into just a story purely from the story sake of it. And I think that's a fascinating like there's no wrong answer. It's just a matter of perspective. Yeah, actually, I mean, the term actual aerial suicide. Like, yeah, it's true that if you just took the whole free solo phone process and you multiply it by a thousand or you know, 10,000 for sure I would die. You know, some of those times because it's like it's it's a numbers thing. But if you applied that to a mainstream like just sort of a sedentary lifestyle, that would be true as well. You know, you take somebody just chilling on their sofa, like eating a, you know, whatever. It's like you multiply that out by by 50 years. And I mean, that basically basically is actual aerial science. You know, it's like you're running life insurance assessments of like, well, your middle age, you're sedentary, you're overweight, like you're probably going to die young. And it's like, that's also actual aerial suicide. So you're kind of like, well, you know, which is, which is better or worse. I don't know, I mean, free solo climbing. It's true that if you were just doing a lead hardcore free soloing all the time, like, yeah, you would eventually die. But if you do it very sparingly as sort of a highlight to years of training and effort, you know, it's like, yeah, it's risky. But you're, you're choosing your risks very intentionally. And I feel like for most people, you know, living in normal lifestyle, you're just not choosing your risks that intentionally. Like, I mean, you are, you are taking risks with lifestyle, but you just don't think about them. I mean, even on long those lines, like if you have a really long commute that you take every single day, based on statistics, that's the exact same thing because car accidents take more lives than most other things. And so it's one of those things where it's like, if you look at everything under a microscope in actuary and you expand it to a large broad spectrum, especially things that are high risk or even things we consider normal that have a higher risk that we refuse to acknowledge in a lot of ways, you're going to run into that same issue. Yeah, I mean, I think that's one of the interesting elements of rock climbing, and especially if you're like a full time or professional rock climber, it's like a big part of your life is evaluating and managing risk, like thinking about risk, like taking something that could be or should be dangerous and trying to make it as safe as possible. And so I mean, that's definitely the case with free selling, but even just normal roped climbing, it's still inherently somewhat dangerous. And so you're always thinking about how to minimize those risk, minimize the dangers much possible. Do you think that's a big part of like picking the rock face too, especially when you're doing trad and things along those lines is knowing where the holds are and making sure you understand? Because I mean, a big part of rock climbing is self-awareness and knowing your capabilities and not going beyond them to a point where you're increasing your risk to a sane point, but also being able to push yourself to advance requires that ability to be like, okay, this is something that I've never really done before, but you take the safety precautions so that you're prepared. Yeah, I mean, in order to improve, you try to push yourself to failure as much as possible. But then there are certain situations where if you fail, you'll die or you'll be severely injured. And so, yeah, as you said, there's a lot of self-knowledge involved. You really have to know when you can push yourself, when you can't, when it's safe, when it's not. I mean, that's why so much of climbing is evaluating risk, like managing fear, all those kinds of things. Yeah, and my brother also does, like, backcountry, like, avalanche zone kind of skiing stuff. And he does paragliding, which is his main passion now. And that's all he kind of talks about. And it's one of those things, because as I was watching Free Soul, I saw a lot of relatability in you and my brother in the sense of, like, how you approach things and how you see things. And when you're super passionate about something, it's like, you just keep after it and keep doing it and keep doing it. And so that was, that was really unique for me from a personal experience to take away from that is in a way I kind of saw and understand how my brother's brain works in a different from seeing what you do and seeing the aspects of what he does and being able to be like, oh, that's interesting. Because it created that same kind of dynamic of the focus around passion. And so a lot of what he does, obviously, is evaluating risk. And also on top of that, like, it was showcased in the movie, but the amount of reps that you had spent on LCAP and the amount of mental reps with your notes and everything that you had, like, there's probably a much like broader amount of footage that was there to be able to make you feel comfortable and be ready and be prepared to be able to do that. Yeah, I mean, definitely, it's all about the preparation. I mean, that's the thing, if you're trying to minimize risk, if you're trying to take something dangerous and make it feel comfortable, it's like preparation training, you know, visualization, any, you know, whichever avenue you choose there. But they're only a handful of tools available to you, so you kind of have to use them all. It's like, I'm going to train physically, I'm going to train mentally, like, I'm going to be absolutely ready to make sure that this, this thing that I want to do is as safe as possible when I do it. Yeah, especially talking with your fellow climbers that had climbed LCAP multiple times and done different free solos in different areas and things like that. That was, that was the part that I really took from it is the amount of preparation that went into it and focus. Yeah, I mean, I think that was a, that was a common theme for the film. I'm thinking audiences that this is what I was saying earlier when nobody comes out of the movie being like, I want to go free souling, but they come out of it thinking, if you want to do something hard, you should prepare for it, you should train for it, you should put the necessary time into it. Yeah, I don't think people ever emphasize mental reps enough, like visualization of what you're going to do in any discipline, because in sports definitely, and you hear about like people that are like top level boxers, they are always like mentally going through their moves and responding like things, and I'm like being able to visualize the entire rock face. Not only reinforces in your head, when I'm, when I'm acting, I'm bad at memorizing things like I'm bad with words and names fall out of my head. But the only way that I've ever been able to memorize something is by visualizing myself acting out the scene in the beats that it needs to be, and then it's like instantaneous, like I can remember that even though it's a more complex thing. And it disciplines me and to prepare for it, it's like as I was coming out of filming, I was mentally already editing it. I don't know if you've ever done any video editing, it's very, very boring for some people, I've, I've loved it for some reason. But I was mentally editing it in my mind, stitching the shots together. And it's like that kind of mental preparation, people can put in the hours in like a gym or something, but if you're trying to play at the top level, you have to be like in it on, on whatever you're doing. And then off hours when your physical body is too tired, your brain is still going and you need to keep thinking about it. And for me, sometimes I can't help but think about it. I have, I have 80 ADD, you know, but that's just like I got diagnosed way late, like when I was 21. But I don't think that that's any core feature of just that. I, I just about the things that I am obsess about, even if 80 HD, not 80 HD, it is just a factor of like when there's something you're passionate about, you can't help but think about it all the time. And that thinking about it is so integral to executing it when it's time to actually make it happen. So there's not really question, it's more like a general statement. No, I think that's particularly true though, when you're doing things that are dangerous or things that you only do once. And so actually when you said, you know, boxers, visualizing a fight, I mean, that's probably a good analogy with, with climbing or free solo climbing anyway. Because realistically you're only going to do the fight once and so you want to be absolutely as prepared as possible before you do it. And so with free soloing as much the same, you know, you can practice physically as long as you need, but, but you're only going to do the free solo once. And so visualization and sort of mental preparation is something that you can do, you know, sort of infinitely to prepare for that one time they're actually going to do the real thing. And I mean, there are a lot of other things in life, like if you're trying to be a power lifter or something, like visualization probably doesn't matter quite as much because you can just try the thing that you're trying over and over. You know, visualization probably matters a little bit to like break through mental hurdles and things or like to break through mental blocks. But you know, if it's something that you can just try over and over, then you know, just go for it. But it's like there's so many things in life where you're only going to get your one shot. It's like you got to make sure that shot counts. And that's where the mental preparation really comes in. I'm a big believer in the mind. Sorry, Tyler, I swear I'll let you talk. No, you're good. You're go ahead. Go ahead. I'm a huge believer in like the mind body connection. I believe that they're integral. They're like they're connected in ways that we can't ever like fully understand because a lot of it is just in the subconscious. But in that visualization, like especially even with power lifters, I know that some power lifters, like they only lift once every 30 minutes because they give their body full rest. But it is such a intensely minute chain of muscle actions going from floor to above your head of like complete controls. Like if you didn't do the mental prep, like the power of the imagination and the ability to visualize these things is just like not leveraged in day to day things. There's been numerous cases of nonverbal like autistic children who never spoke a word in their entire childhood. And yet when they finally were able to speak at age like six or seven or something like that, they were able to speak perfectly even though they had never physically practiced it. And it's all because in their mind, they were practicing it and that practice was almost just as valid and subconsciously moving muscles and like thinking about it had an impact on their ability to perform the action. And I think like when you get to that level of chess grandmasters, they visualize entire games. They have libraries of games in their head that they practice and rehearsed and they're imagining the moves. Yeah, I'm like, is that even visualizing they're just playing the games in their head? Yeah, at that level, you're not even visualizing. You're not like imagining you're just actually playing games. Like, can you imagine it's like a whole different level? God, if I was in a different discipline, I don't even know who I'd be. Yeah, I hope I could do it. I hope I could do it. Maybe I'd fall on my face and fail. I'm just unlucky. I'm at least somewhat decent at what I do. But yeah, no, it's really cool to think about. Is there any particular rock face that you've like not been able to climb that you've really wanted to be able to do or are planning to do in the future? No, I mean, they're almost limitless cool objectives around the world. And there are tons of destinations and like incredible walls and inspiring mountains and faces and things. You know, there's a lot that I want to do. At this point, there isn't really anything that's gotten away. I don't know. There's this thing in Alaska that I've did two expeditions. This place called the Ruth Gorge is kind of, I don't know, it's just like a glacier that has a bunch of 5,000 foot rock and ice walls above it. You know, we kind of tried to climb. I don't know. Yeah, basically the things I'd like to do in the world, but nothing. You know, like, if I had to just hang up my hat and never climb again, I wouldn't feel like I'd missed out. Like, I've gotten to do most of the things that I'm really excited about. At this point, I just, you know, carry on. You know, I just find like other cool things and like try other things that are challenging and like fun new projects. Yeah, I mean, like this summer, I'll probably be going on this expedition to like several sort of new places for me climbing some big walls and in sort of the Northern US, Canada and Alaska. They're all, I'm sure it's all going to be amazing. Yeah. But, you know, is that kind of like why you went to Antarctica recently? Because I saw that you took that trip. How was that? Yeah, actually, that was my first sort of me dipping my toe into more high altitude mountaineering. I climbed the highest peak in Antarctica, which is kind of high. And then, actually, I went to a dock in Cogwo, which is the highest peak in South America. There are mountains in that one. I am Antarctica. Oh, yeah. Yeah, Antarctica is actually really high. It's a really high elevation in general. Whoa. And cold. There's actually a lot of like decent rock in Antarctica too, just rock sticking straight out of ice. I've done two trips there. It's really cool. I often forget that Antarctica is just a continent in and of itself. It's like massive. I just never think about it. But yeah, there's a mountain range, multiple mountain ranges in it. That's nuts. Yeah, many very, very large mountain ranges. But yeah, that trip this winter was just my little foray into checking out high altitude mountaineering. And my takeaway was that I wasn't into it, didn't like it, not doing any more of it. I was like, this is not for me. But which was kind of, which was good because it was just a three or four week trip and it sort of reaffirmed what I want to do with my time in my life. You know, you're always, and I feel like this is probably true in any discipline, but you're always kind of wondering, like, oh, should I be doing something different? Should I be like taking on different challenges? Should I be aspiring to something new? And you know, basically I tried climbing big mountains. And I was like, you know what? I actually hate climbing big mountains. Like, I don't really like climbing ice and snow, but I love rock climbing. I was like, I'm just going to stick to doing the thing that I love doing. Is that kind of like the what's next mentality that everybody kind of was like, oh, you did this. Now what's next kind of thing? I mean, you know, probably a little bit of that though, I've always, I'm a pretty well rounded climber. I mean, I've done lots of expeditions, different places and traveled widely. And like, I put up roots on all seven continents. You know, it's like I've done a lot of climbing. And I've always been interested in all of it. But yeah, I mean, people are always like, what's the next big thing? And you're like, I don't know, what is the next big thing? So you try a few things and you're like, you know what? Don't care about those things. I'm going to focus on the things that I do really care about. Oh, that's beautiful. Yeah, I tried music myself because it was like almost, you know, I'm on YouTube. Whatever I was like, you know, maybe I've always had this like desire like to do music. So I learned a few songs in guitar, played it during this live show that Tyler and I did. We also did improv on the show. I loved improv hated performing music. But I did it. And I was like, all right, never again. I put in all that work to do that thing. And I'm like, all right, I'm good never doing that. But I think that's just as important to learn. You're like, well, that's now off my life list. Like never going to waste any mental energy, like wondering if I should be working on something like that. Because you're like, you know what? I shouldn't be because I don't like it. 100% because in doing those new things, I did discover that I liked making larger productions. I made, I had an opportunity with YouTube originals to like make a bigger film project. And I was like, I've been dabbling in it. And I want to see what's like working with the crew. And I've learned, I kind of loved it parts of it. Like working with other people is difficult when you work so much on your own. But it was like, there was something really nice about being able to make a bigger project. And anyone out there like, like who is I often encourage is like try new things. Even if you're really good at something, like try something new. I think it's that curiosity that drives people to explore not only getting deeper in their own discipline that they're passionate about exploring what else they could be passionate about. It's very important. Not totally agree. And it's kind of one of those things that as you develop and work on those, even if it's just to try it out, you get skills that potentially cross over into other aspects of life. And I was actually really curious about this because obviously I've done rock climbing throughout my life, not to the extent that you have. But I'm curious what kind of skills you've seen that have crossed over from like the focus, the endurance, every aspect of climbing that has become so ingrained in you into your regular life. What's hard to say because climbing is so deeply ingrained, climbing is at the core of my whole life. So it's hard to know how much of my development as a person is because of climbing versus just general growing up and maturing and whatever else. But I do think that climbing helps put the rest of life in perspective, like managing fear, managing risk, struggling all the time, having challenges. I just think that climbing, and actually I think part of that is probably because so much time climbing has spent outdoors. And when you spend time in nature and in the elements, you just realize that a lot of things just don't matter that much. I think about this all the time when I'm in airports and I have to travel for work and things. And you see people stressing, whether or not their flight's going to be delayed or whether they'll make their connection and whatever. And you're like, you know, you're going to be just fine. There's ample food and water around. Worst case scenario, you get put no hotel for a night. Who cares? It's going to be just fine. Either you're going to make the flight or you're not. But you stressing isn't going to change it one way or another. And either way, you're going to be comfortable. Is that really something to worry about? And so I think climbing helps put those kinds of things in perspective. And when people are stressed about weird mundane life stuff, like, oh, is this paint the right color for my thing? You're like, who frickin' cares? When you're dealing with mortal risk all the time, the rest of life just feels so chill. One of those things is so easy to say. It's so hard for people to understand it. It's like you need constant reminders of that, like, out there. Even I, I definitely, I agree with that wholeheartedly. And yet I still, I'm like, man, yeah, no, I can't let the things that recently that have been bothering me distract me. Because it's just like, yeah, not in the long run. It doesn't matter. It'll get done. And that's almost always been my attitude. I think being slightly afraid for your life, for time to time, is a really healthy and, like, sort of, helpful outlook. Because it makes the rest of life. So, you know, it just puts it in perspective. You can be grateful for, like, the comforts of home and, like, the relative simplicity and ease of life. You know, it's realistic. I mean, certainly, you know, us chatting here. It's like, we're all going home to a comfy bed and, like, good food and, like, good community. And it's like, it's a pretty frickin' easy lifestyle. You know what I mean? Like, if you're in the developed world right now, like, your life is pretty, pretty frickin' chill. I mean, basically, the most chill that any human's life has ever been in human history. You know, and yet it's easy to lose sight of that. And when you're, like, stressed about, you know, your work or whatever is going on. And so, I think that climbing and specifically doing any sport that keeps you in the outdoors all the time just keeps you a little bit more in touch with you as a human animal. You know, we were like, man, being in civilized society really makes life pretty comfortable compared to, like, being in the elements. And, like, I don't know, like, the last time I was climbing outside yesterday, we were up on this big mountain climbing. I mean, he's, like, really, his sport climbing. So, it's just a single-pitch climbs. They're just, like, a hundred-foot tall cliff. But way up on this mountain and an afternoon thunderstorm rolled in, it was basically just pissing rain. And so, for the time that we hike down the mountain, it felt all treacherous and rainy and kind of hardcore. And it's just a reminder that, you know, sometimes you're like, well, clouds build, it rains, you get wet, you get cold, you're uncomfortable. And, like, that's just the way life is sometimes. And I just think that when you live in a city or a sedentary lifestyle, you can just get too detached from that a little bit. You're like, oh, I just want things to be comfortable and easy at all times. And it's like, you just need a little reminder that it's just not always easy. Like, sometimes life is hard. It makes you appreciate the comfort more. Is that part of the reason why you started your foundation and bringing, like, solar energy over to the underdeveloped areas and stuff like that? It's just that thought and that aspect that you've seen, like, around the world as you've been climbing and then going and traveling and being like, why are people stressed about this when you know it'll be fine? And where's other places they won't be? No, that's exactly it. I mean, I started the Honda Foundation 10 years ago and it supports community solar projects around the world, basically energy access projects abroad. Yeah, it was largely that. I mean, sort of the injustice in life. I don't know. I mean, I kind of founded it because it was like, what's the inherent fairness of it? Like, you know, they're building people living on earth without access to energy and sort of living in poverty. You know, just by sheer good fortune, I was born in a place that I got to be a professional climber. You know, I found this thing that I love to do. I've got to do it my whole career. I get to make a good living from just climbing on rocks. And I'm like, where's the, where's the comic justice? And I'm like, that's so crazy because you go on climbing expeditions too. And as a climber, when you go on an expedition, you go to the most remote parts of the world and then you live there for quite long periods of time often. So you're like in some rural part of remote Africa living for a month in the middle of the network. And so you get to see, you know, like rural villagers all over the world living in totally different ways. And you see their kids grown up and you're kind of like, you know, it's just a role of the cosmic dice that these kids were born here. And that I was born in suburban California. It's like, there's no inherent fairness in that one way or another. I feel like so starting my foundation was just one way of trying to address that kind of inherent fairness. I didn't even know about the foundation. I'll have to donate to it. Oh, I appreciate it. Honour Foundation Network, if you're curious. It was just my attempt at doing something useful. I mean, it's one of those things. If you spend all your time basically recreating outdoors and rock climbing, you are sort of like, should I be doing something a little better? You know, like should I be trying to do something slightly helpful in the world? And so this was my attempt at trying to do something useful. Along the same lines, is that kind of why you started being a part of the host of your climbing podcasts? Like to be able to give back to the climbing community that's given you so much? Yes, and my climbing podcast is climbing gold. So named because we started it before the Tokyo Olympics, which is the first time the climbing entered the Olympics. And so we felt like it was this interesting moment in climbing history, where you know, climbing's like right on the cusp of going fully mainstream. And so we kind of wanted to explore a little bit where climbing had come from and where it was going at this interesting moment in climbing history. You know, now we're a couple of seasons past that, and we're just exploring other interesting stories and interesting ideas within the climbing world. But it has actually been kind of fun to create something because, you know, I've never done anything like that. I've never had like a body of work in some way. You know, because the thing with hard climbs is like you do a hard climb. Maybe somebody films that maybe somebody doesn't, but either way, it's just kind of immediately behind you. And people can't really like interact with it in any way. So climbing gold has been kind of a fun way of highlighting good climbing stories, but also sort of creating something for the climbing community. That's really cool. I'm just going to interject for one second. Everyone listening and watching this on Spotify. I just made a thousand dollar donation to the Honol Foundation. If you want to make a donation, donate with me. Honol Foundation.org. I'm so touched. I appreciate that. Thank you. No, charity is a big thing. But for me and Tyler, we're always doing charity events, charity streams. He worked with Tiltify for a long time. He still, like, consults every once in a while. But just Tiltify is also a fundraising platform for stuff. So we're big on charity. We're down to sporting play. And our fan base also was huge about making contributions to this. That's awesome. I appreciate that. Yeah, we have the same kind of aspect as we're in a position where it's like we've been gifted so much in our lives. And there's so many ways that we want to be able to give back and help other people to advance their lives or being a better situation or get to the point to where they can do things that they want to do. And so it's one of those things that it's always been a big aspect of since Mark started YouTube. And since I've been around doing scouts and other stuff is being able to give back and give people a better chance at an opportunity to set life. That is to bring this back to climate. I do think that that's a key thing from the climbing world is like if you have enough, you don't need more. And it's like and if you have something that you're already really passionate about and you have enough and you're leading your life. I mean, this is a big part of why I started the Honolful Nation is that, you know, I have enough. I'm doing exactly what I want to do. I'm passionate about what I'm doing. I'm leading my best life. Anything else I don't need. And so I can give that through the foundation to support, you know, all kinds of useful projects around the world, basically support environmental projects, you know, help the people that need it. To me, I feel like that should be a slightly more like I wish that was more of the default. You know, it's like once you have enough, call a good. You know, it's like you just don't need more. Like you don't need the frickin' megaya. You know, like you don't need the private plane. It's like you're frickin' fine. Like you're leading, like you're comfortable. You're doing the thing you love to do. Call a good, like pass on the rest. Neither of you guys has a megaya, right? I was just throwing another. No, I'm not. Yeah, yeah. Just to make sure. But I love the climbing community because you go to a rock one. It's like, oh, I forgot this piece of gear. And it's like, oh, I got a spare one or, oh, yeah. Like talking about the pitches and stuff. Like everybody, like, unless you ask for it, they don't interject. And then if you end up in a situation like, oh, I spilled my water. Somebody's there to offer water. And I've always, I've always loved that about the climbing community. Because it's like, oh, I got plenty. Yeah, I can help you out for that moment. It's probably because every, every climber has always been in that position of need themselves. It was like, yeah, the community always helps people out because they've always been the one who's like, oh, it just started raining and I don't have a coat or like, I'm now freezing or I forgot like a critical piece of gear or whatever. It's like, I totally agree that someone's always got your back because everyone's always gone through the same thing themselves. Yeah. And that's, that's a great thing that the climbing community offers. For any of you that are not sports people, which is the majority of people listen to the podcast. Like, that's what one of the big reasons why I love sport. There are people within different sexist sport that can be real dickheads. I know it myself from playing football and other stuff. But there's communities, especially the climbing community that are incredibly accepting and incredibly welcoming and will be there to be like, yo, I can help you out if you need help or be there for you if something happens. Like, it's truly an incredible experience where people can come together about something they're really passionate about and really inspire other people to do the same thing and be there for them if something goes wrong. I actually think climbing is the sport for people that aren't in the sport. I mean, that's, you know, that's how I wound up as a professional climber is I'm terrible at balls and holes and sticks and like all the other weird team games. And, you know, I lack the social skills to be on a team. I lack the coordination to play any other sports. But, you know, I'm athletic enough. You know, it's like, I'm like, I can use my body. But I just wanted to, I wanted to problem solve on my own. I wanted to set my own terms kind of, you know, like work on things and my own pace. It's like, I mean, climbing is definitely the sport for people that aren't in the sport. It's like something really fun and engaging that you can do with your body but you can do it in your own terms. There's a perfect, yeah. There's climbing gyms all over the place nowadays. Like, you probably have one in your city if you're listening to this. Go check it out. They're very friendly. Everyone I've been to have been very friendly, very accommodating. There's only been one that there was a guy who was a dick and honestly, he was even charming by himself. Like, there was something charming about him. But, you know, I would always say climbing is the best way to date if you're on the prowl. It's like, you're dating at the climbing gym. One of my girlfriend's friends is in a predicament because they've run out of guys to date at the same gym. I've heard, I probably can't talk about these things. I can't say anything about this. Well, it just means she needs to move to greener pastors. She just needs to switch gyms for a little while. Which in LA is tough because it's so hard to drive between them. Or just go to an actual rock face, you know. Well, he's going to meet out there. Tons of people. Handsome climbers. All right. One last question before we sign off because the name of the podcast is go my favorite sports team. Is there a sports team or sports person that either inspired you or you root for or always cheer for? You have friends obviously within the climbing space or anything like that that, you know, you look up to or cheer for all the time or rooting for success for. Short answer. No, I basically don't care about teams. So the thing I appreciate about mainstream sports like playing with balls is the athleticism and sort of the human. Basically, I want to see human excellence. So I want to see great players achieve greatness. And so I never really care that much about teams unless that is the greatness. Like I mean, because some teams work well because they're a really good team. Like actually a friend of mine was just explaining to me that because the NBA finals is going on and out that the Miami Heat or whatever isn't really like a superstar team but they're just a great for a team with great coaching. And I'm like, oh, I appreciate that. When you can take a bunch of people who are undrafted and aren't necessarily the biggest talents in the league but they can work well together and perform at a really high level. Like I can appreciate that. But like I don't freaking care about the Miami Heat. I just want to see people achieve excellence. Like I mean, I think that the whole point of sport is to bring out the best in people. And so I like seeing great athletes perform at the top of their game. So, you know, I'd say I'm sort of a casual fan of like somebody like LeBron James, though he seems to not be achieving excellence right now. Exactly. Or his team isn't. I'm not actually following that. But they're like down by a bunch right now. But in general, you know, it's like somebody who has spent 20 years in a league always performing at a very high level and trying really hard, you know, like putting a lot into somebody like Kobe Bryant, where you're like, oh, he put his whole freaking life into excellence and really performed at that level. I mean, you're like, you're freaking like Tom Brady in the NFL. Like I'm not a huge football fan. But I'm still you just have to respect somebody who has achieved at that level. You know, we're like, oh, and to play that long, you're like Jesus. You know, he's like a dinosaur of the. Yeah, I have nothing but respect for Tom Brady. And on this podcast, we have nothing but respect for Tom Brady. I respect Tom Brady. I just don't like Tom Brady. I don't know anything about him, but. Yeah, I know. Oh, man. He's just always in my heart. No, I respect him. He's a great athlete. He's a great athlete. I have nothing against Tom Brady. I have stuff against how the media portrayed him and the greatest of all time conversation and team sports and stuff like that. But he's a great athlete. And I respect that a lot of it. That's the thing is I prefer to sidestep all those kinds of things, whereas like who's the greatest of all time? I'm like, I don't know because I don't know any of the sports well enough. But most of the biggest things I've ever seen because I don't know any of the sports well enough. But most of the big names that this sort of transcend sport like that, like Michael Jordan LeBron, like whoever. Like they transcend because they're among the best ever and they've put a ton of work into it. And I think it's fair to say that they're all showing human potential in somewhere or another. Like they're very freaking good at what they do. I don't know. So I mean, that's what I appreciate about sports. But like I just don't get the tribalism of it. You know, where it's like who cares if like your city? And I think it's so weird because none of the players are from the city anyway. It's like, you know, people are like, oh, it's our team. And you're like, but these are all people that are drafted from like a broad, you know, and like from wherever else. They're brought in from like literally the whole world. And then you claim that they represent your city and you're like, they just don't. They're going to move as soon as they hit free agency or whatever. You're kind of like, come on. It's just, it's just a weird thing. I'm in the same vein. But being on this podcast and learning from Tyler actually has kind of changed my perspective on it. Because I do get people's natural inclination to want to feel included in something. There was a there was a event, a boxing event. And I know it's not a team-based thing. Called the creator class that happened recently where a bunch of YouTubers they fought. And people who were not a big sportsman. It was for charity. It was a charity. Oh, my goodness. It's a surprise. They beat the crap out of each other. People who watch they who never watched sports before were able to root for their favorite creator. And then they they set afterwards. There was a few quotes of people quoted saying like, Oh, man, I get why people like sports now. Because that was someone I cared about. Even if it was parosocial, it's someone they cared about and they can root for and it feels good. And so I'm starting to understand where the team and city perspective comes from is like, you can feel pride. It's just like feels good to do for. But also it's a little unsensical. But when you get into the deep weeds of it is interesting. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I'm the same way. I'm like, I get it. But I'm also just like, it's a little. I don't know. You know how some people like always root for the underdog? I'm like, I pretty much always root for the, what do you call the overdog? Like, basically, I want to see the best team win. You know, like, I like seeing, I like seeing teams go into feed it. Like, I like seeing greatness. Like, I like seeing excellence. And so people like, oh, with this team, you know, it has such a long shot. That's like root farm. I'm like, no, they have a long shot. It's because they're not as good. You know, it's like, I want to see the best team win. So you really were rooting against the heat because they're the lowest seed when they face the box over the one seed in the first round of the playoffs. No, I don't know any of the, I don't know any of them. But yeah, typically I root, like, basically my, my fan, you know, my, I root for the teams in order of their ranking. You know, like, I want to see the number one team win. And so it's disappointing when a team that's number one in the regular season, like, doesn't make it to the finals or something because you're kind of like, come on. You won all those games and you couldn't take it to the end. Like, in the NHL this season, didn't that just happen with Boston or something? They, like, won a record number of games. Oh, yeah. And then they lost in like the first round of the playoffs or something. I guess they weren't good enough. I know. That's up to stop. I love this perspective. I'm not going to lie. I love this perspective. I don't, I don't, I don't want to harm some fully agree with it. But I do also love it. Like, you fell on your face right at the finish line and like, come on, man. Like, I, I do get it. That's why I love watching the Olympics. Like, Olympics is probably my favorite event to watch is because it is like just that peak and you get to see new things that I've never seen before. Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, the Olympics is like basically I just want to see great human performance. Like, I want to be reminded that humans can do great things. And I feel like occasionally in mainstream sports you see that. Like, actually, so one of my favorite things now is just watching sports highlights on YouTube, like a couple times a year. I'll like go down some rabbit hole where I watch like the entire NFL playoffs and 10 minute YouTube clips. And so you're just seeing the best plays. You know, you're seeing a three hour game to still down to six minutes of excellence. And I'm like, that is kind of my pace for watching sports. Which makes me sound really dumb. Not on this podcast. I'm all about that. Look, I mean, the fact that you're watching at all. I missed the Super Bowl. And our home city was in there. And I missed it. Like, but I watched highlights of it afterwards. It was and we still lost anyway. But it was like, yeah, all right. Cool. So we'll wrap it up. I could keep talking. I was just going to say most climbers do not care at all about mainstream sports. I think more than most climbers, I care a little bit. Partially because I'm like, I'm a freaking professional athlete. I should at least have some idea what other professional athletes are doing. You know, even though it's like cross-sport and whatever else. But I would say I'm interested a lot of other. I mean, climbing has such deep countercultural type of roots that a lot of other full-time climbers are just like, F that like F the man that stuff is stupid. You know, I'm like, I kind of agree with that. But I'm also like, you know, these people have still spent their entire lives devoted to, you know, honing their craft. And so I can still respect how well they do their craft. Like that's my take on most sports. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Alex. I want to give you a chance to shout out where people can follow you and find you and support you. Obviously, the Honour Foundation and you have your podcast. But anything else you want to say where they can follow you and find you and see what you're up to? Yeah, if they care about the work I'm doing at Honour Foundation Network, they can listen to the podcast at Climbing Gold. Or really, I mean, they can follow me on social stuff, just add Alex Honour for everything. But, you know, I'd say a casual person should just watch the film free soul and be like, that's freaking crazy and call it good. You know, it's like, unless you're into climbing, I don't need anyone to follow. I'm going climbing either way. I was like, I'm not too stressed. Yeah, it's like you said, it doesn't matter because you're having fun focusing on what you want to do, what other people think or what other people do. It's cool to see when they're striving for excellence, but outside of that, it's just not your thing. All this stuff aside, I'm going climbing tomorrow. Hopefully I'm going to send my project. That's what I care about. You know, it's like, that's the important thing. It's like, I want to do the thing that I'm trying to do. And honestly, that's why it's inspiring. Well, I appreciate it. It's a pleasure to chat with you guys. It's been super fun. Yeah. Did we end up asking any questions that you didn't expect or threw you off that nobody else has asked? Well, I don't know. I'd say that we went down a much, like, a whole different path than I expected. You know, sort of the existential side of climbing. I was expecting more, like, more nuts and bolts. Like, how do you train? What's your diet? Like, that kind of stuff? This is more like, this was more, why do you exist? It's your purpose. I love asking those questions. I love doing that. Now, I hope you had fun. Seriously, thank you. It was a pleasure talking to you. And give the best of luck on all your future climbing and diversity. Yeah, no, it's a pleasure sharing. And yeah, I can't wait to see it. Yeah. Well, thank you very much. Thank you again. And for those watching, we'll catch you in the next episode. And you know where to go and where to find us. So follow us on Spotify if you want to watch video exclusively. And hang out, you know, the merch and other stuff we have going on. Cool. Thanks, guys. Yeah, thanks so much. Thanks so much.