All right, so Matt, there's these three older guys sitting on a bench, a 60-year-old, 70-year-old,
80-year-old. 60-year-old goes, man, I got this problem. I wake up every morning at 7 a.m. and it
takes me 20 minutes just to pee. Well, the 70-year-old goes, man, my problem's worse. I get up at 8 a.m.
and I sit there grunt and groan for half an hour before I'm finally able to have a bowel movement.
And the 80-year-old goes, not me, at 7 a.m., I pee like a horse and at 8 a.m., I crap like a cow.
And the 60-year-old goes, so what's your problem? He goes, I don't wake up till 9.
No!
Good evening everybody and welcome to the graveyard. Thank you for joining us tonight. My name is Adam
and my name's Matt. Now, we'll up a tombstone or settle into your casket and get comfortable
because this is graveyard tales.
Oh, right, everybody. Here we are again, Matt. How you doing tonight, brother?
I'm good, man. Good deal. Good deal. So, before we get into it,
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All right, Matt. So you know me. I'm a music junkie and I always have been. I've got to be listening
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So Matt, that's all I've got. Why don't you tell us? What are we talking about tonight, brother?
All right. So this is one of these topics tonight that that Adam and I
these are the things that that he and I talk about when we're just hanging out talking.
And inevitably, if the girls aren't involved, then our conversation will shift to something like this.
And this is more of the ancient aliens type thing. We'll mention the alien part. I promise.
But we're going to talk about the city and the tribe of Tewanaku.
And a lot of people feel that the Tewanaku were the first humans, that they were here.
Even more believe that they were the first Americans.
Right.
You know, if we were talking about North and South America, they were the first ones here.
We know that they're very old. We know from the artifacts they have left behind that they're
very old. And with things that are very, very old, there's legends and stories and speculation on
how they did things. And Tewanaku has all of that. So we're going to get into it. This one,
Adam is going to talk about the actual site of Tewanaku. What makes it so unique and how they
constructed these things and how what's theorized behind it. And then we're going to get into some
of the legends of the Tewanaku people. They have their own creation story. It's really, really cool.
So Adam, let's get into it. All right. So as we always say, go check our sources down
on the bottom of the show notes. You can find where we found all this information.
And you can continue the research, if you'd like, because I'm going to give a brief summary
of the different parts, but we're not going to be able to get into all of it. There's thousands of
years of history here in the Tewanaku area. So we don't have thousands of years to discuss it.
We got like an hour and a half. So I'm not if that. Yeah, right. So we'll briefly go over it.
And then when my ADHD kicks in, we'll move on to math. So
but you know, if we're going to talk about Tewanaku, we're going to have to also talk about Puma Pumku,
which is within the Tewanaku complex. And we're going to have to talk about Lake Titikaka. So
for just like 30 seconds, go ahead and laugh to yourself about Titikaka.
Yeah, for 30 seconds, everybody is in third grade. Here we go. I mean,
you can't help it. I'm sorry, but you know, I told Matt, I said, we might have to because this
is a PG 13 show, we might have to call it boobie poo poo lake, but not going to. We're going to
go with Lake Titikaka. But of course, when when he brought this up, this was the first thing.
Exactly. So that's why I said, let's just get it out because I'm going to say it a lot
throughout this episode. So you know, get your jokes out now. You can email them to us if you
would like. But so people began actually to permanently settle around Lake Titikaka around 4,000
years ago. And I'm going to get a lot of this first bit of information from ancient organs and
ancient organs. Wow, not Oregon, not ancient Oregon, ancient origin.
Whoo, it's going to be a fun night. We can't even pronounce words. We know. I know. It's
going to be a fun night from ancient origins and the Smithsonian. So, you know, follow those
links in the show notes there if you're interested. But about 4,000 years ago is when they started
to settle this area. And by 1,500 BC, a small agricultural settlement formed about 10 miles from
the southern Bolivian shores of Lake Titikaka. So, Timunaku was the highest city in the ancient
world in an altitude of 12,600 feet and would grow to cover an area of around six square miles,
which is huge for a one of the first cities around Lake Titikaka in this region.
If you think about the elevation and to have a six square mile city at this elevation around
1,500 BC, that's just incredible to think of. Yeah. It's like ancient Denver. Yeah. Because at that
time, from what we hear, there weren't city complexes like that at 1,500 BC. There were not
these massive city complexes. So, what made them do that here around Lake Titikaka at this
elevation? And that's this this large an area. Yeah. And that's and that's an interesting point
because most settlements had to begin near, you know, a flat area where we're farming could
could take place. They had to be near a water source. So, that's why, you know, those
those settlements were along lakes and rivers. But they were down on the ground. So,
I mean, it was understandable that if you're if you're going to build a civilization
in the mountains like this, you're going to have to have a water source. And that's probably
why we don't see others. Sure. You know, with with Lake Titikaka being the lake at the highest
elevation, it gave them a water source that they could build around. So, it was it was they had
what they needed. The question is, is why? Because at that elevation, it seems like it would make
everything more difficult. Yep. Yep. And for a lot of people like for us in North America,
if we were to travel down there and travel to Lake Titikaka, it would be difficult for us to
breathe because we're not used to that elevation or whatever. Now, the people that live there are
because they live there for, I mean, generations. But that, you know, the first people to set up
this city, it makes me wonder, were they from lower elevations or did they come from high elevation
tribes and form this? That's just one of the questions I have. But hundreds of years before the
Inka Empire spread along the Pacific coast of South America, there was this other civilization
that prospered in parts of what is now Bolivia, northern Chile, and southern Peru. It was the
Tiwanaku State. Now, the Tiwanaku State, which lasted from about 550 to 958D, was one of three major
first millennium powers in the Andes. But very little archaeological evidence has been found
from the Tiwanaku compared to the Inkas, whose empire rose to the height of his power in the 15th
century. Now, I gave dates 550 to 950. Here's the issue. I'm going to, I'm going to say some more
dates a little later on and you're going to go, but wait, you said it was different. I'm giving you
the information that is out there. There are some conflicting time periods because we don't know
for sure. Exactly. It was so wrong. When we're talking about something that old, it's very
difficult to date it. And there's no written history that they have. So there's nothing to really
use context to say, you know, they really just have to look at the geology. Yep.
So the carbon date, some things, but you can't carbon date stone. And most of what they find here
is stone. I'll talk about some of the other things they found, but it's from different time periods.
So we'll go ahead and talk about some of the other dates here. Go ahead and get that out of
some scholars date. The earliest remains found at the site to the early part of the early
intermediate period, which is 200 BCE to 200 CE. Others suggest that the culture is evident in
artifacts from the second millennium BCE. So there's questions as to exactly when.
Probably much of the site, including many of the major buildings dates from the latter half of
the early intermediate period, 200 CE to 600. Some construction, however, must have continued
into the middle horizon, which was 600 to 1000. For during this period, it says Tewanaku
influences are seen at Wari and elsewhere in the central and southern Andes. So after Tewanaku,
the Incas kind of moved in, you know, to that area. So they're not sure whether
well, which civilization passed these cultural influences along? Was it Tewanaku or the Incah?
Right. Now this next part comes from Khan Academy that I found and they had an extensive
piece on Tewanaku. And I thought they had some interesting information. It says the Tewanaku
civilization was centered in the Lake Titicaka region of present day southern Peru and western
Bolivia, although its cultural influences spread into Bolivia and parts of Chile and Argentina.
Tewanaku's main city center boasted a population of 25,000 to 40,000 at its peak,
which is wild, just so many people at that time for him. They said it consisted of elites,
farmers, llama herders, fishermen, and artisans. So I mean, this was a full-blown city. This was not
just some hunter-gatherers that came around and they all decided to live together. This was a
city with a class structure living together 25 to 40,000 people. Just incredible.
Its ceremonial center was featured a tiered pyramid called Acapana and a temple complex,
the Kala-Sasaya. Kala-Sasaya. Close as I'm going to get, sorry about that.
That's good. Perhaps one of the most iconic works of Tewanaku's public architecture is the
gateway of the sun. This thing is incredibly cool. I know Matt will end up talking about it more
later because it's a very prominent feature, but it's a monolithic portal carved out of a single
block of andesite. The monument was discovered in the city's main courtyard and may have originally
served as the portal to the Puma Pumku, one of the city's most important public shrines.
The gateway contains low relief carvings across the lentil set into a square grid. At the center
of the lentil is Tewanaku's principal deity. The figure is face-frontally holding two
implements that end in bird heads. It's like sticks, fancy sticks that end in bird heads. We always
see rulers, deities, holding staffs of some sort. No different. He's got one on each hand,
ends in a bird head. It says, perhaps, representing a spear-thrower and spears, but says he wears an
elaborate tunic decorated with human and animal faces. The eyes of the figure bear the characteristic
Tewanaku stylized teardrop. A winged feline hangs down from the eye to the bottom of the face.
Tendrils of hair emanate in rays from the head, terminating in feline heads and circles.
Composite human bird deities flank the central figure on both sides.
So, if you look at pictures of Tewanaku, you'll see this gate, you'll see this big stone,
and it's very intricately carved. Archaeologists speculate that the doorway was originally
brightly painted in inland with gold. That's what I was going to say. When you look at the pictures,
it's impressive in and of itself, but when you have to picture it as it probably was,
which is Adam said, covered in gold, and very ornate and jeweled, painted bright color
and I mean, something to think about is the pyramids. If you think about ancient Egyptian work,
it all looks the color of sand now because of weathering. Back in the day, it was painted bright
colors and we know that because we found some unweathered pieces that had been hidden away.
It's the same with the gate of the sun here. They say, remember that the, quote, pristine and
unadorned state of the ancient monuments we see, they often bear little relationship to their
original appearance. So, that's true. We see it and we think, oh, that's fantastic carving,
it's beautiful. It was even more beautiful when it was painted, adorned with gold, probably jewels.
It had to have been immaculate. Now, Puma Pumku is the name of a large temple complex located
near Tiwanaku in Bolivia and it's part of a larger archaeological site known as Tiwanaku.
Now, the temple's origin is a mystery, but based on carbon dating of organic material found on
the site, archaeologists believe the complex may have been built by the Tiwanaku Empire.
So, this expansive region, you know, when you hear it talked about, you'll hear Tiwanaku
and you'll hear people mention Puma Pumku. I know for me, before I started doing the research,
I assumed these were two separate areas done, you know, further apart, whatever, but Puma Pumku
and Tiwanaku are fairly close together and it's assumed that they were made by the Tiwanaku people
for the same complex, basically. It says the most intriguing thing about Puma Pumku is the
stonework and this is amazing. Puma Pumku was a terrorist earthen mound originally faced with
megalithic blocks, each weighing several tens of tons. The red sandstone and andesite stones were
cut in such a precise way that they fit perfectly into and lock in with each other without using
mortar. The technical finesse and precision displayed in these stone blocks is astounding,
not even a razor blade can slide between the rocks. Some of these blocks are finished to
quote machine quality and the holes drilled to perfection. So, there was an article from Wikipedia
that describes a fantastic engineering that's involved in the temple's construction. Normally,
I don't like using Wikipedia, but because I found this elsewhere, said basically the same way,
I'm just going to go ahead and use this article. It says in assembling the walls of Puma Pumku,
each stone was finally cut to interlock with the surrounding stones and the blocks fit together
like a puzzle forming load bearing joints without the use of mortar. One common engineering technique
involves cutting the top of the lower stone at a certain angle and placing another stone on top of
it which was cut at the same angle. The precision with which these angles have been utilized to create
flush joints is indicative of a highly sophisticated knowledge of stone cutting and a thorough understanding
of descriptive geometry. Meaning of the joints are so precise that not even a razor blade will
fit between the stones. Much of the masonry is characterized by accurately cut rectilinear blocks
of such uniformity that they could be interchanged from one another while maintaining a level
service surface and even joints. The blocks were so precisely cut as to suggest the possibility of
prefabrication and mass production. Technologies far in advance of the Tiwanaku's
Inka successors hundreds of years later. Some of the stones are at an unfinished state showing
some of the techniques used to shape them. They were initially pounded by stone hammers which can
still be found in numbers on local andesite quarries creating depressions and then slowly ground
and polished with flat stones and sand. So before we move on because I'm going to jump into
Lake Booby Poopoo here in a minute but listen the way that describes these stones. This is
I mean a maculate masonry work. If you got a brick house like we do go out and look at the brick
not a one of those is they're not touching each other because they've got mortar in between them
because they're not going to be so finely polished and edged that they seat together without any gaps.
It's very rare to find any stonework that has such precise surfaces to them that they fit
together like that and it's a highly skilled mason that can carve the stones to where they fit
into joints and go look up pictures of the joints that some of these that I mean they're like
tea joints and crazy. I joints where they have a piece in the middle shape like a cappal
eye that fits down in there and it locks two stones together. It's amazing. They're not going to
come apart and before we started recording I was telling Adam I saw a video earlier today
with Georgio Suklos. He's the ancient aliens guy if you don't know the guy with the hair. He is at
T. Wenaku and he is showing two very unique things about the stones there. He shows two stones
side by side with about an inch and a half gap between them and he explains that the stone the one
stone was cut using a diamond blade saw and the other one was cut by the T. Wenaku people.
Some 2000 years before and his words were you know the most advanced cutting stone cutting technology
we have available to us today and here's a cut from 2000 years ago that looks identical.
So it makes a lot of people question how in the world did they do this? How were they
this skilled it's one thing to just really be good it's another to not have not have the tools
to do a job so well. Right. Well and that's the thing in that article the snippet of the article I
just read it says they started with hammers stone hammers and then they finished by polishing it
with a stone and sand. You can get there I get that you can get there with that because it's abrasive
and you are going to wear it down but how would you get such primitive items like that to create
such a smooth finish and to interlock together now some people are going to say well you know the
weathering over time has made it seem like it's smoother than it really is that okay I'll give you
that on the solo blocks laying out by themselves. But we still have pieces of the complex of Puma
Punku together and we can see the joints. So it's not like it weathered that much whether it smooth
between each other. Does that make sense yeah I get could weather the surface but where they're
joined if water trickles in there it's going to trickle in a path it's not going to wear it smooth
it's going to wear a it's going to make it worse right and it has not done that because they are
they fit together so perfectly so I'll talk more about it later but this to me
is points to it being proof that Matt and I are right in our theory that there was technology
thousands of years ago that we don't know about I'm not saying it's the same technology that we
have today I'm not saying they had diamond tip power circular saws to do this but they had some
technology that was beyond what we give them credit for in order to be able to do this stuff
because Tewinaku Puma Punku are not the only ancient sites like that you know when I may touch
on some of the other ones at a later episode but before I you know blow into a whole nother
realm of this I'll say that for after Matt talks about his stuff I want to jump into
Lake Titicaka real quick so Lake Titicaka is the highest navigable lake in the world it's the
largest lake in South America in terms of volume so Lake Titicaka Peru is located in the department
of Puno bordering Bolivia in the Andes Mountains its surface is evenly distributed between Bolivia and
Peru so the lake is surrounded by Indian mountain ridges and slopes varying an altitude between 4,000
and 4,200 meters or 13,100 and 13,800 feet above sea level the lake itself is located on a high
plateau ranging from 11,200 to 13,100 feet above sea level at this altitude temperatures average
less than 59 degrees Fahrenheit all year round and it remains constant throughout the year
temperatures don't drop at night or in winter as much as in other places at similar altitudes
so maybe that's a reason that area was chosen for the settlement yeah maybe they were
it's very it's cold but it's temperate yeah it stays the same yeah know what you're getting
so if if you have something if you it's like San Diego you know where it's always sunny and 72
it there's a very good chance that you're right and that was why
that area was was chosen yeah because of that of the climate you know you didn't have
big swings in temperature you know that allowed you to do things year round that you probably
would only be able to exceedingly yep now lake titty caca is divided into two sub basins the larger one
is lago grande and the smaller is lago picanio so both lakes are connected by the straight
of the quina so lake titty caca is a geological wonder formed during the pre ice age about 60
million years ago the lake was formed when massive earthquakes shook the Andes mountains splitting
the range into and forming a hollow that eventually got filled with water from the melting glaciers
creating bodies of water and ultimately rivers and the immense lake titty caca so the lake was the
cradle of Peru's ancient civilization the puraca culture settled in this fertile land around 200 BC
and a millennium later the tywanaku culture emerged and spread throughout the altiplano and into
Bolivia and warlike tribes like the amaras and the colas coias coias emerged but only to be
absorbed by the Incas it was the Incas civilization that unified the many cultures and spread into the
land forming the Inca empire that's why we hear so much about the Inca more than the tywanaku
culture is because the Inca grew and absorbed all those cultures into the Inca empire so
and it this is a little side side note here but you know if if the ancient cultures of South
America is intriguing to you and you know if you're like Adam and I it should be because there's
a lot down there you know the Incas the Mayans that the Aztecs they they did things that we don't
understand today but when we talk about the the Incas and how they were so successful in building
their empire is they took the best parts of all of these cultures you know they the instead of saying
if you're not like us wipe you out no they absorbed them they're like we we really dig what you're
doing here um we're a lot bigger than you so you're just gonna become a part of us and you're
gonna show us how you do this and instead of wiping out new ideas new technology um you know
different maybe better ways of doing things they absorbed it and it made them better as a whole
right which is something we need to keep in mind and I wish those during the Inquisition had learned
because oh yeah I've said this before but with the the burning of Maya Incas tech
ritual sites the the burning of the the Library of Alexandria I mean we have lost so much knowledge
that we could probably use today think about the the society we would be now if we hadn't
hadn't had so much hubris that nope this is the way we do it if you don't do it this way that's
yeah you know that's ungodly that that's a sin against man and we can't do that and we're gonna burn
it I mean it just not not to go off on a tangent but or or we have to we have to you know
rid this region of these savages yes yeah you're gonna lose for you there's savages are probably
smarter than you but by by many times I'm sure been around longer their civilization knows more
and you probably just made yourself stupider by doing that you said yourself back 500 years because
you burned their their text instead of reading their text anyway and I move on before I get angry
so already a little perturbed but we won't anyway local indigenous people the Uros have settled in
you know in the shores of the lake for thousands of years but they also live on the islands
so this is right there in Lake Titicaca they live on 40 plus man-made floating islands
these islands are made of reads that grow along the shores of Titicaca
they also make boats from the reads they pretty much anything that you need they can make out of
reads I've seen swings I've seen like big statues shoes shoes the boats are incredible that they
make out oh yeah the reads are also edible if you need something peel the out of layer off it's
like heart of palm you can eat the interior of the read and I mean I'm fascinated by that I know
you're gonna talk more about the reads and the boats here in a second but it just fascinates me
how this area and it is probably this way for a lot of areas if we don't overlook it there is
something there that you can do anything and everything with uh-huh and these people knew it
way back then during the Tiwonaku age and before and they still use that same knowledge
today it's been passed down through their history their their elders pass this knowledge on
they can do anything with this read and some people look at the reads and go it's a weed cut it down
yeah yeah but it's a little known fact that there was uh there was a saying that came from this
that we still you'll still hear people talk about today you know it was the whole if uh if I'm wrong
I'll eat my hat yeah yeah yeah sure that's where that came from hey I will say this about the hat
and this is not a joke um they had there there there is a specific kind of hat it's called a
four corner hat uh that is that region and it's so funny because I saw a picture of this
Tiwonaku hat it's it's made of it's it's it's I guess it's made of reads it's it's woven into almost
like thread and they've you know it's got a design and everything but it has these unique little
tuffs four spots at the top and it's called the four corner hat and it's indigenous to this area
yeah I watched a documentary that was done in 2017 and they had a local man that was helping them
he has on one of these hats oh no and it wasn't it wasn't like he found like an artifact and decided
he was going to wear it they still use that design because his head the little the little mucluck
ears they came down just remember it's cold you know they're they're way up in the mountains um and
I it had like uh had like colors and and and lettering and stuff so I like that's some that's a
modern hat he yeah he bought that at the Tiwonaku gift shop well speaking of I'm sure they have
a gift shop oh they do and they've got some really cool stuff yeah um speaking of hat I can't
remember if it's Bolivia or Peru but it's this area if you look at pictures the all the women
in this area wear a shirt and it's all it's like a short top hat it's like a uh it almost looks
like they're too small you know but they sit on top of the head and they're almost like a short
top hat I I saw a thing apropos of none of this except for the hat thing that they wear down
apparently there were some people that came through missionaries or something and they wore
this old style hat it's not a bowler but that'll give you a good thought unless you look up the
pictures you'll know what I'm talking about well the women I think it's Bolivia might be Peru the
women thought that was a really awesome hat well the women started wearing it so it is now part
of the culture to wear this hat the men don't wear it and I just think it's neat when you look at
the area all of these women once they hit a certain age they can wear this hat and they're all what
I mean it just looks cool I'm sorry but it looks cool it way better looking than if my dumb butt were
to put that hat on they rock it and I'm a hat guy I'm always yeah yeah yeah I think it's cool
because it was basically an import that they adopted for themselves and then they started making
the hats and they're like this is our style I think it's cool now I'm going to finish my part up
here with some of the artifacts that have been found in and around Lake Titicaca and this again
comes from the Smithsonian since scientists have dredged Lake Titicaca and found a bunch of artifacts
from Tiwanaku civilization so the Tiwanaku artifacts including gold medallions and stone carvings
were found in the waters around the lakes island of the sun so religious iconography and the location
of the object suggests that pilgrimages played an important role in the development of this early
empire a practice that would later be adopted by the Inca civilization says quote the island of the
sun is an island which has a history going back to 2700 BC says Charles Stanish an archaeologist
at the University of South Florida one of the authors of a new study on this says it became a very
important pilgrimage destination in the Tiwanaku state by around 650 AD so Christoph Delare of the
for marine archaeology at Oxford University first detected underwater archaeological deposits
more than a decade ago while diving in the lake he and his colleagues returned to Koa reef and
underwater area near the island of the sun the dive team discovered semi precious carvings
like a lapis lazuli puma and a turquoise pendant as well as valuable thorny oyster shells
transported from the warm waters of Ecuador at least 1,250 miles away so many artifacts also had
religious iconography such as gold medallions depicting a deity with rays exuding from the face
and a ceramic incense burner shaped like a smoking jaguar so the divers also discovered a number
of animal bones the remains of water birds like comor ants and teals as well as frogs fish and
llamas Adam you know what I cannot stand is this time of year when everybody is so busy
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later analysis of the llama bones by delirian colleagues found that most of them
were unfused revealing at least one infant and three juvenile individuals the team
also found gold ear tassels and other decorative regalia likely attached to the llamas before they
were sacrificed so this Lake Titicaca was an important pilgrimage site for the religious beliefs
of these people and they would make sacrifices in the lake near the island of the sun you know it's
believed that they would take boats out there make the sacrifices sacrifice the llama other
sacrifices to their gods in this lake so that just shows how important Lake Titicaca is and was
to the people that live around it yeah exactly it is it is critical to the culture
of these people and we've already talked about how unique it is how big it is and the elevation
it's such a unique place we don't see anything else like this anywhere else in the world so
these people were drawn to it and of course they're going to have stories and legend associated
with this magical lake that they settled around and the most common legend revolves around the
origin of the lake itself and it says Lake Titicaca was a fertile valley where happy men lived
in this paradise that was protected by the opus or the mountain gods now to enjoy this paradise
men had to live by only one rule they could not climb to the top of the mountain
where the sacred fire burned that was it you know you can do whatever else you want the one
rule is you cannot climb to the top of the mountain where the sacred fire is I like that because
I wouldn't do it anyway that's right I'm not going up there well I got to climb this mountain
are you joking it happened okay but in the land there was also a devil and he couldn't bear to see
so much happiness so he incited the men to do what they had been forbidden and that was to climb
to the top of the mountain and the opus the mountain gods saw this saw the man climbing the slope
and they were so angry that they released the cougars which devoured the entire population
except for one couple now faced with this slaughter into the sun god wept for 40 days and 40 nights
thus creating Lake Titicaca everything was flooded and as a result of this the cougars were turned
to stone and and as Adam has said you know inside the lake they have found many artifacts
and it's it's interesting too because the lake is actually smaller than it was 2000 years ago
so it's it's less of well this was right on the shore well no the when they were here the lake
was another 10 kilometers that way yeah right you know so they were coming out here you know and
this stuff you know wound up out here in the water or it was covered by a flood and again
the resemblance to the biblical flood you know that's not purely coincidental I mean there
are a lot of religious stories based around a large devastating flood that wiped out the
population with the exception of one family one couple something like that okay now Lake Titicaca
is famous in the mystical communities for being the center of powerful energetic
it emanations is the word I'm looking for there are controversial reports by some authors about
underground tunnels in the islands now remember a lot of these islands that are out there in the
lake are man made so we know those don't have any tunnels right but these other ones that are
present it has been speculated that there are tunnels underneath that could have potentially been
been inhabited at one point that maybe they were above the the water level at some time yeah we
we don't really know there's a there's debate there but according to another myth that was
recorded by one the batanzos this this myth is about vira coca and vira coca was the supreme
ink and god now vira coca as the legend says emerged from the waters of Lake Titicaca
a vira coca was also described as quote a man of medium height white bearded
dressed in a white robe with a bow attached to his waist and carrying a staff and a book in his
hands very very descriptive there yeah who's that sound like sounds like Moses with a bow and arrow
once again we see the similarities with the Islamic Jewish Christian stories yeah uh you know
there's a lot of similarities why i mean these are these are groups that
we've believed forever that they did not interact right i mean they were they were on opposite
sides of the planet you know how would their their religious myths be intermingled like this i'm
wondered that a lot of times when you see stuff you're like wait a minute that sounds like this
that sounds like the Christian flood myth and Noah or this sounds like you know the Christian
Adam and Eve story and it's all of these different
different civilizations and cultures have such similar creation myths or flood myths or whatever
there's gotta be something to that either they were able to communicate
when we didn't think they were or this crap actually happened the way they say it happened
right you know what i'm saying yep because not everybody it's my my same theory
with mass hallucination you can't get multiple people standing in the same area to mass hallucinate
the same thing in their heads so how can you get disparate cultures to create the same and people
say well you know the human brain it they all work the same you've met some people right not
there's some people that got some wacky ideas they ain't gonna think like i think you know
so there's gotta be something going on here that either they communicated worldwide
that there was some worldwide communication network to pass this myth along and put their own
spin on it or it really happened and they're all putting their own little spin on something that
really happened yep that's exactly what that's exactly what i was thinking i mean you said it
verbatimoma so as we're saying uh varicoka uh according to inkin mythology um was born out of
lake titi kaka um he was responsible for creating the sun the moon people and the cosmos now in the
uh i got it i got to do it now the colossusia temple at tiwanaku which is carved atop a monolith known
as as Adam said the gate of the sun uh is a deity holding a lightning bolt and snuff and i'm
i think a snuff is uh like what you would put out a uh uh like a ceremonial fire with
so i think if you're putting your but i don't know not yet i think i think i think that would come
much later they had snooze back in the day that's right hands of snooze yeah no spit you know come
many speculate that this is a representation of varicoka because the figure is depicted wearing a
sun crown however it's also possible that this figure represents a deity that the amara referred to
as tenupa who like varicoka is associated with legends of creation and destruction
right i mean you know you're you're not really a god until you've destroyed something you know
you can make everything you want until you've decided that uh that's no good wipe it out and start
over yeah you're not you're not really a god right i mean that's how all the stories go yeah
you gotta get angry at the idiot mortals and then destroy something yeah yeah but knowing
what we know about the the gateway of the sun um and and when you look at pictures of it you'll see
that figure at the top this is what they're talking about this is what they think could that could
be varicoka or right whatever the sun deity was to the tiwanaku because we know they were there
before the inkis so it would be really difficult for the inkis to
influence the the tiwanaku it would you would think it would be reversed but again it's happened
a long time ago so we don't really know um if if maybe there was some you know a time where they
were both together and and i mean who knows we've talked we talked about how the ink is operated
so there's always that change now i mara legends put tiwanaku at the center of the universe okay
probably because of the importance of its geographical location which we discussed earlier
the tiwanaku were highly aware of their natural surroundings and would use them and their
understanding of astronomy as reference points in their architectural plans okay where have we
seen this before all the other ancient sites um you know we've we've seen it at the pyramids
we've seen it at stone hinge you know we're seeing it here okay um the most significant landmarks
in tiwanaku are the mountains and lake titi kaka although the shores of lake titi kaka are
now located 20 kilometers west of tiwanaku like said the lake is decreased in size due to drought
they used to be bigger and it was closer to the tiwanaku site uh then it is now
but in ancient times it likely extended all the way up now the spiritual importance and location
of the lake uh contributed to the religious significance of tiwanaku if lake titi kaka was this
mystical lake 2000 years ago then the building of the temples and the and the monoliths and
everything in that location had to be significant there had to be a religious significance there because
we know how they viewed the lake so why else would you build these structures here on the lake unless
this is part of your your spiritual origin now let's talk about the tiwanaku story on the birth
of humanity now their story on on the beginning of humans is an interesting one the story says that
after vera koka rose from the waters of titi kaka he created a team of stone or mud giants and
instructed them to build all the megalithic sites and carved statues of their great god
along the path of vera koka which is this long extended trail that is lined with these stones
and these carvings supposedly representing vera koka um it began at tiwanaku now eventually the
giants turned against their creator and vera koka turned them back into stone thus explaining
the presence of these large monolithic humanoid statues okay you know so i'm going to make the
giants the giants are going to do my bidding the giants get tired of doing it so i just turn them
back into stone and mud and whatever you know and now they're now they're just kind of stuck there
now some of them i could do it i would too that's right again that's what that's what it's what
makes you a god you know and that's like hey i'm i brought you into this world i'll take you out
yep don't matter to me because i'm like another one's just like it as i was like a mom
that's right now Adam mentioned this earlier some of the statues are made from and decide that
it was quarried from sarrow sarrow kapia i know i'm saying that wrong maybe i can't see no
it's it's sarrow kapia that's the only way i can pronounce it this was across the lake in Peru
now remember i said earlier it's a big big lake this is now two thousand years ago or more
think about the the great lakes yeah and trying to cross the great lakes if you're here in north
america yeah now it's it's huge yeah even think about an ancient civilization trying to go from one
side of lake michigan to the other you know so i mean you know if we can find the most narrow point
that's still you know an extraordinarily daunting and dangerous task for an ancient civilization or
so we believe so we think yeah um so along this trail there are these huge monoliths that they
call lazy stones and they still exist and they mark the route to the duanaku site and it's theorized
that andesite was taken from that particular site because it was thought to possess a certain
energy or even a spirit that made it the best material for a statue of a god now if you if you buy
into the idea of giants did all this then giants grabbing up these huge rocks and walking them to
the other side of the lake okay they might get a done that but if you take that as a myth
um it really makes you start to wonder but makes me wonder wonder how how did they do it and number
two why why not use what they had right there unless there was something special about the andesite
that was on the other side of the lake well and we see that with several other cultures we see it
with tywanaku we see it with uh uh uh uh stone hinge we see it with the pyramids
these stones that they're using there has to be something about these stones that they knew
or that they thought um during that time because it is a monumental task with
technology or not whether they had more technology than we assume or not it's a monumental
task and all of these cultures go and get stone and bring it elsewhere and we've heard well
you know their god told them this is the stone to use okay I I gather that but why like you're
saying why this specific stone and and that's what we don't have is records of why these stones were
chosen but it's funny because uh in this documentary it they ask some native community members
um who built who built tywanaku giants I mean they also I'm giants you know it's just it's the
legend you know that's what they that's what they grew up hearing that's what their their fathers
grandfathers and and that's what they were told and so it's still there it's still fresh in
people's minds that that this was something that was done by giants um but interesting about
these lazy stones these stones that that are along this path of varicoka native community members
will tell stories about seeing these statues walk around at night yeah and even approach humans to
ask for help but can you imagine one of these big giant statues come walking up to you or waddling
up to you hey uh hey buddy you got a light you know I who knows what what do they need help with
you know it could you even say no to them that was a problem yeah if I had a big-ass stone dude
walk up to me and go hey give me a hand with it uh yes sir yes sir whatever you need brother
yeah whenever you need but but assuming that these walking stones didn't just get up and walk
their butts across the lake some 40 kilometers away from the quarry site 40 kilometers they had
to drag this stuff or not to just drag they couldn't drag it they had to get through the water
and as I said earlier the the lake is a thousand feet deep in some areas okay how in the heck could
they do that well the the easy guess is they did it by boat okay um and and the stone work that
we were talking about earlier shows how skilled the craftsmen of the T. Wenaku were so if they can make
cuts if they can join stones together like this they most likely could build a pretty good boat
um so a lot of people archaeologists I mean they believe that this is just a wonderful example of
human ingenuity that allowed these people to move these stones to their final location now
University of Pennsylvania researcher Alexi Vranich led an expedition to prove his theory on how
the stones were transported now he theorized that the Reed boats were used to get the stones across
the lake so utilizing tools that would have been available at the time his team set out to construct
boats out of tutorial reads farmed by using a long pole with a blade to reach underwater and cut the
reads about 12 inches from the bottom now this was important because this would allow the reads to
continue to grow and they would be ready for harvesting the next year okay so they actually show
a gentleman doing this okay he's got what looks like a long bamboo pole which is the poles
probably made of reads um probably and there's a blade on the end of it and he is he is dipping this
thing down deep into water that he cannot see the bottom and he is just very smoothly sweeping
this blade through and then pulling a bundle of these big bundle of these reads that probably
average anywhere from six to 10 feet long up into the boat and he's on this little like little
read skiff where he's like it's like a paddle board you know he's standing up on it and he's
collecting the reads this is what they had to do if they were gonna if they were gonna prove
that the T1aku used these read boats to get these giant stones across the lake
they had to do it just like they would have done it and it proved to be an exhausting effort
just getting the boat to the water was a significant challenge I mean you know they're trying to
roll this this big read boat on on the logs and they're making essentially rolling tracks you
know with with these big logs to try to get it a hundred yards to the water from where they
constructed it and they've got I mean there's probably 200 people helping them yeah get it there
and and they they mess up they knock over this adobe wall you know I mean it it it was not pretty
but they finally got it in the water but once they got it in the water their problems didn't in
because Lake Titi Kaka is huge 53 5300 square miles
it's more ocean sailing than it is lake sailing yeah and that includes winds of over 40 knots like
you're out in the open sea now as they were making their initial voyage to the other side of the
lake where the quarry was the boat took damage in a storm and it had to be repaired but ultimately
the team was successful they got they got one of these large like I am 90 tonne stone onto the boat
and got it to the other side of the lake but it took a lot of people I mean a lot of people
I mean it's it looks like a looks like a dagum concert there's so many you know it's like
are the backstreet boys in town you know there's people everywhere that are and they're all doing
some aspect of this to try to help these guys succeed and even though they did accomplish their go
it was still just one stone yeah I mean it was all of that it took them months to get one stone
from one side of the lake to the other and truthfully there is no guarantee that
everything they did was exactly how the team Wannaku would have done it in fact I'd say it they
maybe 50% that's just a guess I mean I I don't know I just I just can't see how you could
reenact a process that you may not have enough evidence to reenact you know exactly you're just
making a lot of assumptions here that's always been my thing is how you're like they did with
the pyramids yeah you're guessing as to how they do it because you're guessing as to what their
technology was you're guessing as to what they were capable of doing it's all a guess so maybe it's
right right but it could be completely wrong too just like this complex system of of ropes and
pullies and logs and people that drug these large stones for the pyramids up these
seemingly impossible incline there's there's no way that we know that that's right we've just
figured out how to do it with what we know they could do yeah what we think they could do but it
all goes back to the the point that Adam and I make pretty routinely is
they must have had some technology that we don't know about right they I mean they had to it
this I mean even even figuring out a way to do these things um trying to avoid using our modern
technology it's it's it's just a guess yeah we're just superimposing what we believe on what they
actually did and we may not be right because they they must have had something and I'm not saying
they had iPhones and they're out there taking pictures you know always saying is they understood
something that we didn't know they understood they they understood how to move large stone they
understood how to construct buildings and surfaces so that you know they they would withstand
harsh weather you know that they that the rains wouldn't completely destroy them um
so you know where they got that knowledge we don't know and that's debatable
but it it just seems obvious that they knew something that that today you know even people that
researched we just don't we don't have to say sure how they did it right right now um
there there are a lot of connections with cosmology and tiwanaku um and in many ambient cultures um
you know the mountains are are their sacred objects you know that there was something about the
mountain you know the gods lived on a mountain or you know whatever now um in reality the
site of tiwanaku is located in the valley between two sacred mountains pukura and chiki kawa
now at such temples and ancient times ceremonies were conducted to honor and pay gratitude to
gods and spirits and they were places of worship and rituals that helped
unify the andian people through shared symbols and pilgrimage destinations and tiwanaku became
the center of this pre-Columbian religious ceremonies for both the general public and the elites
so for example human sacrifice was used in several pre-Columbian civilizations to appease a god
in exchange for good fortune excavations of the acappana temple at tiwanaku revealed that the
remains of sacrificial dedications of humans and camelids camelids would be like llamas
yeah now researchers speculate that the acappana temple may also have been used as an
astronomical observatory it was constructed so that it was aligned with the peak of
kimsacha providing a view of the rotation of the milky way from the southern pole
other temples like calasasia try to say that i'll never say it that way again um they are
positioned to provide views of the sunrise on the equinox the summer solstice and the winter solstice
although the symbolic and functional value of these monuments is just speculation the tiwanaku
were able to study and interpret the positions of the sun moon milky way and other celestial bodies
well enough to give them a significant role in their architecture so beyond the idea of okay
this ancient civilization was able to build this you know incredible example of stone
craftsmanship they were able to get this you know and andite from the other side of an enormous
lake that was cold and then put it all together they also understood about celestial bodies and they
used that in the construction of the tiwanaku temples okay again how how did they know how were
they able to do that you know how were they able to position you know these these gates and
and these temples so that on those specific times of year that it would be a line just so where
you could see the the sunrise at the equinox that you could track the rotation of the milky way
let me come on this is two thousand years ago yeah and yeah i wanted to throw this throw this
at you because you were talking about you know we talked about the blocks and we talked about the
joints of the blocks and all this stuff i'm gonna throw this theory that i read at you and
get your thoughts see if they're the same as what i've got they say that the H blocks especially
the ones you were talking about being like the ibeams the i joints right there's a bunch of those H blocks
there the H blocks show it and the fact that the joints are so tight that this shows this is proof
for quote scientific evidence that these blocks are artificial geopolymer rock
or that they were able to melt the rock to form these joints so what they're saying is that they
were heated huh super heated to a point where they lavaed and then they were flattened together
so that the joints you know are are so tight you can't put a razor blade through them
i see how that would work like i get the theory behind that and that the H blocks they're so
squared off and the the seams are so perfect on there that that could be what they're saying artificial
geopolymer rocks a molded rock but my my thought is yes i do believe there was technology
then using technology loosely not i'm not talking about like handheld computers or like you said
iPhones or Samsung's or anything back then but yes they had this technology that we don't understand
or know they had but i don't personally think they had a way of melting the end of sight rock
right and and shaping it into form yeah i mean you know even with fire they would still they
would still have to find a way to generate more heat to melt stone yeah i mean you know i
i go out here with a cigarette lighter right now and put put it to a rock and it ain't it's
not going to do anything no you know many thousands of degrees to melt the stone exactly
and and it does it that that seems way beyond what anybody would expect if they if they were able
to generate that much heat to do that i mean we don't even do that now right and we can melt rock
you know we've got furnaces that can get that high yeah but we don't even yeah we don't do it and
and even even if they had forging abilities to forge weapons out of steel you still couldn't
get it hot enough to melt stone into lava yeah where you could then mold it into these age blocks
or whatever mm-hmm but you know when you talk about tewinaku and pumapuku stuff like that always
comes up and then they say well it was cut by lasers and that's why it's so smooth yeah lasers
lasers sharks sharks with fricking lasers on their head no but you know uh i promised you guys i'd
get to this uh who might have had lasers aliens yeah and that's kind of why I threw that in
yeah i mean you know we can't you can't talk about somebody is going to come up with the the idea
that aliens helped because it's been it's been pitched out there about the pyramids forever
you know stone hinge too so why not tewinaku you know the aliens come down and we're like hey
guys look at this you know see we'll you know play with this toy you know what you look what you
cut the rock with this thing oh great you know this is how you make these joints so it won't fall
over you know this this is how you can do this and I don't know I know that it seems that seems
even less plausible than the giants to be honest with you uh for me I don't I don't know um
but there is something interesting about it and it was the discovery of elongated skulls
right yeah and they predate the milestones that were already established for the tewinaku civilization
right so it it would indicate that yeah the there was a civilization there before
tewinaku and for whatever reason they may have had elongated skulls
which would make you wonder okay some people say it's an alien skull i but could it be a different
race an advanced race that was there that had been there for millions of years maybe
and for whatever reason they were like it's it's time for us to go and they left with you know
virtually no evidence other than maybe these skulls and so but what if they lingered around and
they were there to show the tewinaku this is how you do these things right this is this is how
this works this is how the earth works why would they know because they've been here for millions of
years and and it's possible that the tewinaku didn't completely build puma pungu and the tewinaku
area it was already partially built or completely built by that predated civilization right
you know with i mean this gets into the woo woo train but it's like the uh Atlantis myth
where they were supposed to be technologically advanced so if if it was the same race of people from
before the the quote modern tewinaku or whatever what if you know maybe they moved yeah maybe they
up and moved to another part and then that civilization stayed around and it's what the Greeks
knew as the people that lived on Atlantis the the modern you know advanced civilization
that had all this stuff maybe it was a traveling band of highly advanced people yeah
and and and that is a theory that i can get behind you know that you know if you if you develop
technology you know that was more advanced than what a civilization two thousand years in the
future was going to realize you had where did you get it you know did you did you learn it if you
learned it where did you learn it from yeah you know i mean there had to have been some indicator that
they didn't just figure it out you know they didn't just go i mean because you think about it
if you've got a group of people it doesn't matter you know what two thousand years ago
yesterday you know if if they're going to go to a site and they're going to go this is where we're
going to construct whatever we're going to use the materials that are the most readily available to us
why would they have even known that the and i on the other side of the lake was what they should have
been using unless something or someone told them this rock over here is better you know this is what
you need ancient cultures that speak of their ancestors that taught them how to do stuff right and
you know some say it was gods so but like the varicoka he didn't look like the tea winnaku peep right
he was white right white skinned had you know a book and and staff and all this so
what if because that matches a lot of that description matches what a lot of cultures from the
Americas say about ancient peoples so what if there was a band of these ancient super smart people
that went through and they'd live in an area for a little while when more people started kind of
move in there and they teach them stuff and move on and then that perpetuated the myth of these gods
or these ancient peoples where their civilization started from and i'm a firm believer that humanity
has risen and fallen multiple times within the earth's history completely you know get to a point of
high technology for the time and then get wiped out what if one of those cycles
not everybody was wiped out and it was this band that moved throughout the Americas maybe
throughout Asia and Africa and stuff and was showing things to the next generation of humans that
were coming along because most everybody got knocked back to the stone age because of this
event that happened on earth but they hung on to their knowledge and their abilities
and they taught it to these people yeah varicoka being a good example i think i think i think
i think everybody has an idea that the Americas were populated with these Native American tribes
and that was it you know whether we're talking about um you know all the way from you know
in Canada down through what is now the United States you know across Latin America into South
America you know they were they were all along there but there's a really good chance that they weren't
yet and there's also a really good chance that they weren't first right right so you know take
that for what you will it just when you when you begin to look at the world with that kind of
open view i mean it just it blows your way and Adam and i could sit here and discuss this for
another two hours um we're not going to do that but we're going to ask you guys what do you think
you know what do you think did did the the the T1aku did they have some help that did somebody
well somebody already there that showed them how to do this stuff that that taught them
what what stones to use or did they know where did they come from did they migrate up
the mountain and decide to settle at Lake Titi Kaka or were they already there well you know
was this just where they were from were they from a higher elevation um lots of questions let
us know what you think and the best place to do that is in our Facebook group just go on Facebook
and search graveyard uh you'll find us there um the graveyard is absolutely keeming with activity
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share one guy named Carl it's not Carl oh man he's harmless sorry if your name is Carl i'm just
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easier for people to find the show. This was a good one man. I love topics like this you know one of
my passions besides cryptozoology is ancient civilization. That's right. So this is
right up my alley. That's right. I love it. Until next time we'll save you a seat in the graveyard.