184. Tempo Run Mastery with Coach Cat

I tell my runners assess how you feel, you know, at the end at the end of each mile, if you have a two-mile temple run at that first mile, okay, how do you feel? You know, can you do this for another mile? Go for it. If you feel you can't, then take that break, recover, and then go on again. Are you constantly worried about getting injured or you don't know how to get faster as a runner? And you want to continue to run for stress relief, then this is the podcast for you. Welcome to Healthy Runner, the only place that provides you with training tips, injury recovery, and prevention tools with actionable strategies by experts in the running industry, so you can develop a stronger running body and feel confident that you can overcome any obstacle as a runner. I'm your host, Dr. Duane Scotty, avid runner, running physical therapist and coach, educator, founder of Spark Healthy Runner, where we help dedicated runners get stronger, run faster, and enjoy lifelong injury-free running with the perfect online running coach, even if you've been told to stop running with an injury, or you think coaching is just for fast runners. Learn more about our signature coaching program at learn.sparkhealthyrunner.com. Every week on the show, we coach you to grow as a runner just like the process of building a strong, durable home that will last a lifetime requiring little maintenance. The design and planning is your mindset. The foundation is your strength training. The framing is your run plan. The electrical and plumbing is your nutrition. The insulation, drywall, and flooring is your recovery. The landscaping and exterior is your race strategy. If you master the six parts of growing as a runner, your running will be strong and last-long hitting PRs well into your 40s, 50s, and beyond. Every week we help a runner just like you build their dream home. I'm your host, Dr. Duane Scotty. Welcome to the Healthy Runner podcast. Hey, Healthy Runner, I am doing a six-day launch for super affordable group coaching program option for a fall half marathon. This would be the only half marathon program we do until 2024, so I want to get the word out. This would be a half marathon training program for your running and life. Get the run plan, exercises, nutrition, structure, and support to run 13.1 miles this fall. Feel strong, confident, and crush that half marathon. Our team will keep you training consistently with the proper support and structure to get stronger and run faster, so you can crush a half marathon this fall. 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Are you feeling stuck with your running and you're not sure what you're doing wrong? Do you want to learn more about what most coaches would argue is the most important type of run to master in your training to get better at the marathon or the half marathon distance? Saddle up as we cover everything you need to know in mastering the tempo run. I have cat from our healthy runner coaching team with me here today to talk about one of the main four types of runs. You should be implementing as a runner following along in our six steps to growing as a runner. This will be the official how to do a tempo run episode so you can get stronger, run faster, and enjoy lifelong injury free running for decades to come. Coach Cat, you know how we do this? Give all the new listeners in our audience a little bit about yourself and who you are and let us know why you love running. Okay, I am Coach Cat. I am a fitness instructor at our local YMCA as well as the group X coordinator so I get to deal with all of the group classes that you could think of in a gym. I'm a run coach. I work with everybody from very beginners at our Y from couch to 5K for that charity but I also obviously am a healthy runner coach which is a much more in-depth program and I work with people all the way up to ultra marathon which brings me to I have done every race distance almost. I haven't tackled the 100K yet but we're up 50 mile but I have done 50K, I've done relays, I just finished a 10 hour endurance trail race so I do trail and road which is a little bit of a hybrid and a little bit different but it makes it more interesting I think for me and it gives me a really broad range to draw from and I use a lot of my own experiences when I'm coaching as well as the science and I can tell you generally if something's going to work or if something you read on Google is I'm like no that's not going to work. It may be no so that's just a little bit about myself. I also I was going to say I like cat. I like so many things I can't even listen. That's not even good into that. Well you are a scientist by trade and you're an engineer. Yes. You love tractors. I love marble movies. Well, Avengers. I heard Avengers fan but not going to get into the different Avengers because that is very polarizing. So Scarlet Witch all the way. Teen Cap. If you're Marvel fans you will know what I mean when I say those two things. I do like cats. I love animals. I love cars. You name it. I love being outside. I love animals. I used to volunteer and work at the Bronx Zoo. So I have a lot of different skill sets. You definitely do. I would agree with that wholeheartedly. You are probably one you know most people are like if they're into a lot of different things are like a master of nothing. For some reason you're like a master of many things because your your level of knowledge in particular areas are very very impressive and that's why I love the work you do with the clients in our program because you can cover such a diverse you know running population whether it is someone who's struggled with chronic injuries whether they worked with me first I'm getting over an injury and now you're kind of you know working on their mindset and really getting the confidence to get back to running a half marathon or if they're a trail runner or if they've kind of you know quote unquote fail the couple of times at the marathon distance and you know like you've had all these broad experiences yourself which I love and you can really help guide someone in those particular areas not to even mention that you're a treadmill expert as well. How the heck could I have forgotten on a treadmill person? I'm a treadmill instructor and treadmills are my babies. How on earth could I have forgotten about the treadmill situation? So those of you who call the treadmill coach cat will help you learn how it can be actually fun and stimulating for myself personally. I experienced that first hand because I never run out of the treadmill and I did coach cats work out that she put in our program for our clients for when it's too hot outside or too cold outside and they need to get a run in and they want to get a run they can get it in on the treadmill and it doesn't have to feel torturous because I actually love the run it was very stimulating it gave a lot of variety it was fantastic so yes you have multiple multiple skill sets but today's skill set yes is we're going to kind of dive into this tempo run and you know coach cats going to really educate us on like why do we do tempo runs and who should do tempo runs who shouldn't do tempo runs and then we'll get into like tempo pace calculators and ways that we can think of perhaps some easier methods to think about how we tackle the tempo run and really more importantly get the benefits of integrating this type of run into our training and as you guys probably are aware of at this point but sport healthy runner has given like hundreds and hundreds of runners a plan for getting stronger and faster without getting injured and our plan will work for you to in terms of looking at this tempo run and integrating it into your training so all you need to do is like you know stay tuned listen in but then that's not it right you can't just learn about something you have to actually implement it and take action so kind of implement all of the tips we're going to share with you and then also if you learn something and you implemented it it helped you you have to share that right with a running front of yours who is struggling at getting faster and staying healthy as a runner so we appreciate that and you know if you if you do this really you're going to be taking one of the foundational types of runs and when we look at our six steps to growing as a runner you know that mindset is super important you have to master that you have to integrate strength training into your running you have to actually have a well designed run plan and that's really what we're going to be focusing on today we talk about really designing your run plan initially around four types of runs with the easy run being integral the long run being a staple each week and then the tempo run which is what we're going to do the deep dive on today and then the interval run when that comes into play and then besides the run plan we also need to take into account our recovery which is super important and often forgotten about when we're looking at our running and then also just thinking about like what is our race day plan right and like how are we executing kind of that perfect race day strategy so as I kind of mentioned earlier if you've been struggling at like hey I'm not getting any faster for my marathon I'm not getting any faster for my half marathon what we're going to talk about today is going to be super helpful but keep it in the context of thinking about all of our steps and how we grow as a runner and I didn't even mention Brook is going to kill me that I forgot to mention nutrition and fueling for our runs I was like wait how many steps did I say so yes nutrition and fueling for the run is also one of those steps in kind of improving as a runner so yeah coach cat let's get into you know I guess the basic question here is you know what is a temple run all right such a seemingly simple question that isn't as simple as it sounds there's a lot of misconception or a lot of people when I tell them about temple runs they kind of know what it is but they don't know what it is so the scientific version simplified is it is the hardest effort your body can handle that it's able to clear the lactate equally as it's being produced so that's a really scientific description of it so it's at what pace your body is clearing the lactate as it's being produced so that you don't feel that achy feeling you get you know you always say you have lactate build up or lactic acid build up so you don't hit that feeling so it's how fast can your body get rid of it and process it in relation to how fast you produce it generally speaking that's the scientific term and at any point if anybody wants the really nitty gritty science part email me I have a master's degree in molecular and cellular bio and I love the science nitty gritty but if you aren't a science person you just want to get faster you really probably are not going to care about the lactate and how to measure all that scientifically but if you do I'm your person contact me I'll be more than happy to share that information with you so that's the technical term the I'm going to say the more general term is a pace you can hold for a certain time that's classified as comfortably hard and again I get what is comfortably hard well then I would say it's an rp of a7a well what's an rp a7a you go down this like rabbit hole of trying to explain so what I tell people is and I'll get into the details of how long but for however long your temple run is supposed to be whether it's a time based or distance based because you could have both how hard can you what pace can you sustain for that duration without feeling completely out of breath without feeling like you're going to collapse but at the same time not feeling like oh I could do this forever so it's that they say race pace a little below your race pace but if you've never run a race you're not going to know what that is a lot of times a lot of these terms people are assuming you already have a base and you know but a lot of times you don't so it's how what the pace is that you can handle for however long your temple run is where you're not at the end you need a break but you're not like it's not an interval it's not a sprint it's not a I can't breathe I'm about to collapse on the ground but it's also not a jog in the park I can talk to my friends so you know and I will get more into details about we'll go into the specifics of that in a bit yeah no I think that's super helpful and thank you for kind of simplifying what can be a very complex topic and you know how I like to think about this is and you're right there are different terms and that we can call like aerobic threshold versus electric threshold and all of those types of terms I like to think of it as it's the hardest type of run that we can do that we're still efficiently like exchanging oxygen and like I just envision in my mind you know I'm still utilizing oxygen I'm breathing heavier but I have not crossed over that line where if anyone's ever done a race before right where you get to that point in the race and you're like totally gas and you're like all right my mind is going to take me the rest of the way you're in the pain cave or if you've ever done you know sprint training or interval training or track based work where you're running so fast by the end of it it's you're huffing and puffing like you're not going there because the reason you're huffing and puffing is because you can't breathe because you don't have oxygen anymore and we call that anaerobic right we're not utilizing oxygen while we're running or we're starting not to right so it's really that fastest pace that we're still using oxygen and we can actually sustain it for a length of time and I think this is the integral part for especially marathoners and and you know half marathoners is this is where we get that benefit of being able to run faster doing a race because now we've trained our bodies to tolerate running at a faster pace not for short period of time but for like an extended period of time would you kind of agree with that description there yes that's why this is a very sometimes confusing topic for people and you know I also like to say it is a faster run in between a warm-up and a cool-down at its simplest you know so a lot of times and I will get into more of that but if you're a very beginner tempo run person then maybe do your warm-up at a comfortable pace push that second or that tempo run a little harder and then go down to an easy run for cool-down sometimes that's as simple as it as simple as as complicated as it needs to be for beginners like who have never really done tempo runs okay so that's definitely helpful now let's take a quick pause from this episode in which I hope you're finding value from to talk about safety because it should be a top concern for every runner have you got the right running safety gear whether you're heading out the door for a quick easy run or logging a long run that you need to start super early before the sun rises where you finish super late after the sun goes down nox skier keeps you lit up from all angles so you are visible by cars their signature product the tracer 2 keeps you visible while you run by pairing powerful multi-color LED fiber optics with ultra reflective 3M patterns and fluorescence nox skier's new tracer lamp lights your path and boost your visibility that attaches directly to the buckle of your tracer eliminating the need to use a headlamp anymore because let's be honest who loves that bouncing feeling on your head when you're running just use the code healthy runner during check out when placing your order at nox skier.com to receive 35% off your order go ahead and give nox skier try trust me you recommended to all of our healthy runners in our coaching program and you will never feel more confident that you are safe while running now let's get back into this episode maybe before we kind of get into like how we do these you know maybe let's get into like why we would do these you know what are like the benefits of a temple none okay well the longer you do temple runs the more your lactate threshold is going to increase and what that means the ratio and what that means is you're going to be able to run faster for a longer period of time while you start training it also gets you prepared for feeling uncomfortable during a race you you start to feel like okay I can push through this I'm not going crazy but I'm still this isn't exactly what I I can't just sit on the couch I can't just eat I can't drink it prepares you for the race your body it gets your body used to okay I know what this is and it also mentally prepares you for times in your race where you may need to push that pace and your body will know okay I know how this feels I know what I'm doing and I give the example and I give this example because I love my examples last year's remicon which for anybody who's not familiar I did a three person relay 95 miles we had to we had a very tight pace we had to keep you had to maintain a pace otherwise you're going to be swept my third leg I had already run 20 some odd miles I don't even know I had severe cramps before on my second leg and that third mile I had to do some a pace that for me was aggressive very aggressive to maintain this for our team and I did it because what happened is I had practiced all of the elements that we do easy runs but the intervals and the tempo run I knew what to expect I knew okay I'm going to go into a tempo run this is I hate to say this is going to suck but I know my body can do it and mentally I was prepared because I had done this in training so many times that like when I realized okay this is just a tempo pace don't freak out it's just a tempo pace you could do this and I was able to do it so the tempo run is great if you want to increase your speed but also don't underestimate the mental aspect of it and a lot of times it's good for half marathoners marathoners and above we could go into who probably wouldn't necessarily benefit as much from this type of run but usually half marathons and above are why you would do this for that whole you get faster you really do but your body knows what to expect physically and mentally you're like okay this is going to not be pleasant but it'll work and it wasn't pleasant I'll be honest with that oh it was not pleasant but I got it done I did the pace which for me like I said you can even ask Coach Lou who I ran it with it was it aggressive pace right yeah and I love that you brought up the mental aspect because I think that is huge for this type of run not only physically are we like making our bodies more efficient at essentially running at this faster pace for a longer period of time and being able to still remove waste so that like lactic acid doesn't build up and we should probably mention that you know you will hear some and even myself I'll commonly refer to this as like threshold piece as well because again the sciencey part kind of says this is your threshold piece so those terms are used interchangeably by most people when you hear about it so you'll even hear me kind of say tempo threshold I think the public kind of thinks of it as a piece but we'll talk about how it's technically not a piece but yeah I will still use those terms interchangeably just so if someone doesn't get confused but it is a tempo run so physically it kind of allows our body to increase our stamina if you will like for that extended period of time which definitely helps out in races because you're never ever going at your race piece really in training for the distance that you're doing for the race I need to clarify that for the distance that you're doing is that would be racing that would not be training and we don't race in training right but the mental side I think is huge like you nailed it I feel like myself personally as I've you know extended these out from doing way back in the beginning a two mile tempo run you know two miles at that tempo piece to a three mile to even doing four miles like that was a huge jump even just mentally and knowing how it feels like that uncomfortable feeling that I had during that run like you said mentally helps prepare you for your race if your goal is to get faster and you want to get that PR because it's going to be uncomfortable right and you need to utilize some of your mental strategies during those hard training runs such as the tempo run so it's like not as fast as your interval or your your speed work sprint work if you think about but it's uncomfortable because you're holding it for this extended period of time and it kind of builds up and for those of you who are experienced half marathoners or marathoners you know when that uncomfortable feeling occurs during the race whether it is at a half at around 10 or 11 miles or at the full you know at the 20 mile mark right and thereafter you're going to have that overwhelming feeling and you might not even have increased your pace at all but it's just the accumulation over time like hey we could do this for a while like this feels really uncomfortable and so I love the fact that you've wrapped the mental side because I find that that is a huge benefit is it gives you that opportunity to practice your mental game and your mental strategies and training that you're going to utilize for your race and then it also gives you that boost of confidence that you know you did this harder run you you got into this uncomfortable feeling and you were able to kind of conquer it so yeah those are some great benefits so I guess who would benefit from doing a tempo run? Anybody who now I have to clarify this and this comes to you know experience if you are a beginner with limited experience and training plans I would say you don't want to listen to this exact part but who benefits from a tempo run is basically anybody who is running a half marathon or above with the lower distances you can you can always benefit from a tempo always whether you're doing a 5k or you're doing a 10k you can benefit from tempo runs and I will give 5k people or 10k people I will give them tempo runs but those are a little shorter and that I'll go into the technicality of how long a tempo run should be but I see usually a 5k can be over and this is not I'm just saying in about half hour to 45 minutes your 5k is over a tempo run usually is between 20 minutes on so 5k's can benefit from tempo runs but the bigger benefit will be for in my opinion half marathoners and above and just because of the nature of it whereas it's all relative but doing 400 meter repeats may not or one to them around a track as fast as you can may not benefit and will not benefit chances are a marathoner but it would do excellent benefit for a 5k person to increase speed so there are very different plans but in my opinion most everybody unless you are a true beginner can benefit from a tempo run and even a beginner can benefit from a tempo run as long as we talk about and we're going to talk about the pace and how fast you should be running through a tempo and you will see that why you can do a tempo run pretty much yeah and I love that you've burned up the duration and the length of time that we're holding this tempo piece because we can change that variable as well and for a beginner runner or someone you know who is training for a 5k or a 10k you know you could utilize this more in their base training fees right as opposed to their little specific training well like yeah you said the programming wise that'd be great to like add in base whereas usually for like the marathon distance for example we almost do the opposite in their base training fees we really focus on maybe some more strength building some faster work to get the legs turning over and then as we get closer to the race we actually transition more to extending out this faster running and running more at the tempo piece and adding marathon piece to miles into specific runs yes so I kind of think of those as like when in the training cycle we add them in so that we will vary so who really wouldn't a tempo run be that beneficial for somebody who's doing probably their first experience as a runner whether it is a 5k a 10k chances are if you've never run before you're not going to attempt a half marathon but I've seen stranger things so you don't want to do a tempo run if you don't have a good base it's always down to your you know your base or if you hear a tempo run of my friend did a tempo run so I'm going to do a tempo run no no put the breaks on think about it logically consult with if you have a coach I highly recommend it but if you don't consult with like the healthy runner people or the website I mean people have asked questions on our Facebook we have a great Facebook community and people have asked questions and I have direct messages them with answers you know so if you do have a question very specific like that we can help you it wouldn't be if it's not a personalized coaching plan unless you sign up but we do have resources to help you and if you are wondering whether a tempo you can benefit from a tempo run you know direct message myself I answer messages all day long from people so basically who shouldn't are in my opinion true beginners who are not experienced with a different type of runs and are just trying to get a base down you may not want to do a tempo run and I would even extrapolate on what you said there with beginners of covering the distance so like you had mentioned you know you wouldn't be a beginner runner and try a half marathon there are many people like you said who do or if it's your first half marathon maybe you were running for a while it's still your first time running and doing a long run of double digits of 10 miles 11 mile maybe you do a 12 maybe you just stick with 11 as a beginner for your first half marathon but you don't want to add those variables and increasing your overall weekly mileage at the same time that you're starting to add in this speed work and I think this is something that I would say are kind of coaching philosophy at healthy runner it's pretty consistent between all of us and it's tough because a lot of runners as you said maybe you know look across at what their neighbors doing or their friend and they're like well they're doing this plan and it calls for a tempo run and I've seen some plans that are beginner based but still add in this variety of runs and as I mentioned earlier yes we do have four types of runs however the tempo and the interval run we really do not recommend for someone's first half marathon or someone's first marathon unless you've done multiple half marathons with speed work in it right and tempo runs in it and this is where the run coaching as a coach we assess our runners we see what their background is we see what they need to work on so it is very variable with all individuals you know I always like to tell people that right and just generally speaking though what we do find is many people either getting injured or quite frankly burnt out from the training and they don't enjoy it they don't enjoy it they're like this sucks yeah I'm training for this half marathon I set this goal I set this challenge for myself because I'm turning 40 or I'm turning 50 right and they want to cover this marathon or this half marathon and they just hate it and obviously we believe in lifelong injury free running so I would rather have someone like enjoy the training process celebrate the win and actually embrace all the benefits that running has to offer us right for our lives versus getting burnt out because you edit in way too much and everything felt terrible hard right so that's kind of where we're coming from and and again like I've seen so many injured runners make some of these training mistakes the first time they go to tackle a certain distance so I would agree with you that you know if it's your first time doing a you know marathon half marathon then I wouldn't recommend that you start editing in tempo runs unless you are under the guidance of a coach who is going to start with shorter intervals and monitor and see how you respond to the training but for those who aren't working with the coach then I would highly recommend that you don't tackle those as well as I guess my you know running physical therapist brain also needs to see if you're currently still recovering from an injury and are running with some pain and most injuries and I've talked about this many times before you can modify a running plan and still keep someone running without having to stop running if you had some planter fasciitis on iq dance syndrome right some proximal hamstring tendonopathy or runners knee however if you are still having pain with running tempo run is not going to certainly help you right it's it's if anything is going to slow down that process of you continuing to get better so I would also add that in if someone is actively still having symptoms with running it's been getting better their symptoms are going down you're recovering from your injury you know now it's not the time to add in tempo runs yet so you know that will come in the future so I'll also add that in there so I guess you know if someone's like okay I understand the benefits here and you know maybe I've been at this half marathon thing a couple times and I noticed I'm at a kind of a plateau in um you know I'm not able to break this specific barrier I don't know what I'm doing wrong I've never done these tempo runs for first time I'm hearing about it so coach cat how do I actually do these like what does this actually look like to run at this faster piece that you mentioned this is what I do day in and day out so I'm happy no I don't do tempo runs day in and day out I'll be honest you can either do a time-based tempo run or a mileage-based tempo run a lot of times for my beginners who've never done and when I say beginners I don't mean new to running I mean a beginner who is new to a structured plan or new to a specific race distance it doesn't mean you're a beginner runner it just means that this year beginning the process of doing a new distance I usually do it by distance so I will tell people one mile tempo run so that is where I break it down your first mile should be your easy pace that you normally run to get your body used to it then your second mile should be your tempo pace and your third mile should be an easier cooldown you should not use it as a total recovery that third mile you should still be moving so if you find at the end of that third mile you need to stop you can't go on that means your tempo pace was too fast for that specific workout usually in my indication there's another way to just tell that's usually an interval or a sprint workout so that's the first I would do then I would start increasing it by a mile generally speaking two mile three mile tempo runs after that you I know you've done some four miles for the marathon or even more I tend to move into a time-based plan so it can be anywhere from a 20-minute tempo run it's usually 20 minutes to 60 minutes believe it or not 60 minutes is at 60 to set is is at that extreme more of an ultra I've done you you don't generally because if you're just talking 10-minute mile that six miles you may not that's a little more extreme so usually it's between 20 and 40 minutes and however many miles you can get in the 20 to 40 minutes so that is the overall how it would structure a tempo run based on where you are in your experience whether you're very new to tempo runs or if if you're training for an ultra marathon or you're training for a marathon your tempo runs are definitely going to be longer than if this is your first half marathon tempo run right again if you see a plan be very careful if you just get it off the internet when it says a tempo run because it may have you at a 40-minute or a two-mile tempo run but that may be too much for you at that point okay so just the structure of a tempo run is I like to think of I'm a big turkey sandwich kind of guy right so if I think I got my bread right so I got my carbs they give me spark I got my you know my top bun let's say of my roll that's going to be like the easy piece mile to start and then I would also add in there because I've shared this on the podcast before that I have been a big fan of actually making the beginning easy part of the run even extend two miles because I feel like that gives me a better warm-up especially for an agent runner like myself so middle-aged runners you might like if you've been doing tempo runs for a while and this is like a refresher for you and you've never tried doing two miles as a warm-up trust me you'll love a two-mile warm-up before you actually get into your tempo pace miles but we have like the bun your warm-up kind of miles at your easy pace and then the meat in the middle there your protein is going to be these tempo miles the tempo and then we got some carbs on the back end there and we got the other part of the bun that is going to be easy running after you're done with your tempo miles you can even go crazy and like mess up we're gonna have to put some pickles and lettuce in there yes and do let's go there let's do I know I know I know what you're thinking of you on a long on your long runs we always say you should run your long runs easy but if you're training for a marathon we will throw tempo runs in there so you could do if you have a long run of 20 miles this is for advanced I'm not going to give this to my beginner marathoners but if you have a 20-mile long run your first five miles go ahead run it at an easy pace then maybe mile five through eight or nine tempo pace and then go back to an easy run so you can incorporate tempo runs not as just their own workout but within larger workouts as well a lot of times people don't realize you can put a tempo run inside a bigger workout you can use them just by themselves or you could put them into a bigger workout so you do have that option if you are an experienced run who've done many 20 miles or 18 miles or 15 miles and you've done that on a regular basis that's when you might want to incorporate a couple of miles in the middle of that and by the nature your warm up is going to be easier you're going to be doing an easy warm up for maybe five miles then go into a tempo pace so yes it can be incorporated into a longer run and not just stand by itself so again that's another option but that that depends on your on how much you've been running as well you don't want to do that if it's your first 20-mile or we are not adding in tempo runs for your first 20 mile or even your 15 mile no and and we have a whole training on actually advanced marathon training with Coach Liu on our team and actually the newest Spark Healthy Runner you know blueprint PDF kind of guide that was actually just released is our marathon training guide for either beginner or advanced runners because we have both types of information in there if you are looking to run a marathon and have longevity in mind so not only finish the race but then continue running after the race and not be injured or not be burnt out check out the guide you can just go to learn.Spark Healthy Runner.com forward slash marathon and you can learn about marathon mindset which Coach Ket did that training on mindset for the marathon base building for the marathon strength training for the marathon nutrition with Brooke for the marathon and then also that either beginner training or advanced training for the marathon so make sure you guys download your copy of that which has a ton of videos trainings like supplemental information that will certainly help you train for your marathon so thank you for bringing that up that's like kind of the spice I thought honestly you were going with because I think we can go there now that we kind of mentioned this tempo run has this faster running in the middle and I think you mentioned it before is sometimes we can break up so as your example you did one mile easy piece one mile at tempo piece and another mile at easy piece once that extends to let's say three miles at tempo piece so maybe do one easy three in the middle one at the end so in total you're running five miles but you have three at tempo piece a lot of times before we do that once we start extending out the distance or the time that you talked about we can add in kind of what we call tempo intervals so between the turkey maybe a thrown a pickle and that's like a one minute rest recovery at easy piece just to help bring that heart rate down a little prevent you from jumping over into not utilizing action huffing and puffing as I was mentioning before and then kind of regroup think about oh I finished the first mile whoo tackle that all right I got another one coming and then do another mile and then maybe add another one minute rest and it's not a long rest like it's literally you know you could program anywhere from 30 to 90 seconds I would say the most common I usually do is a minute it's just enough time to get your breathing back down heart rate just dipped down a little bit maybe it takes away the water especially in the heat right that kind of thing and then you go back into your tempo piece so yeah the tempo intervals are your big fan of programming that for your athletes to start out before you really start building up usually what I tell them is see how they feel after the if they're the first mile obviously no but if they have a two mile tempo run and it's the first time what I will tell people after that first mile assess if you can keep going at that pace and you really think you can keep going at the pace then go for if you're finding you you you you at the end of that one mile you're like I can't do another mile of this stop take a breather walk it out catch your breath and then go in maybe not as fast but still faster than your cool down and that's one of the things that why I talk about tempo pace calculators but I tell my runners assess how you feel you know at the end at the end of each mile if you have a two mile tempo run at that first mile okay how do you feel you know can you do this for another mile go for it if you feel you can't then take that break recover and then go on again right yeah and I think it's a it's a huge I feel like like the two mileer like you mentioned is usually doable for most without a rest I feel like the three is like the difference maker because you know anywhere you're looking at if someone's tempo piece and we're going to get into pieces but let's just use some examples if it's anywhere between let's say eight and ten minutes per mile that means you know you're running essentially between 24 and 30 minutes at this faster pace so it does become somewhat overwhelming not just from a physical physiologic standpoint but then also mentally too right where if you just get that you know you have that little rest and the physiologic you know benefit or you know it's not a huge difference and I think it allows the body to you know run those miles or that time period with just a little bit of a rest to kind of come down and to prevent someone from running them too fast and now getting outside of what you had talked about in terms of like RPE of a seven or an E and now this runs starting to turn into like a nine at a ten effort which is not what we want for this type of run I hope you are enjoying this episode and it is providing value for you I wanted to take a brief moment to share a story of a real runner like you who is struggling with a common problem that you may be facing here is one of our athletes who got the guidance support and accountability from our healthy runner coaching team to get clarity and structure on the six steps to growing as a runner with personalized strength nutrition and run plans I hope their story inspires you that there is hope to either get over your running injury or to continue getting faster or running longer so you can continue to get in those mental clearing miles and enjoy your running journey again here is their inspiring story the main problem you were having that you decided to sign up for the program you may not have a problem but what was your goal and I'm going to write this down even I was lost number one I was lost number two I was running five seven days a week not obviously not high mile high mileage running and I was like you know I shouldn't my friend tells me you shouldn't be doing that my sister-in-law that referred me to Dwayne's podcast she's also a physical therapist she was the one that introduced me to him and she was the one that said you should not be doing hey check out these podcasts kind of snowballed from there so I really I needed direction and I wanted to get stronger because I didn't want to injure myself that was my main concern and I and I remember also in the beginning I was lost about pace I'm no longer lost about pace I have learned so much that was a big one for me but it was mainly I needed direction great and I knew that I started to love running so I want to start you know seeing where where it could you know leaving to hopefully run a half by my birthday by the time my birthday comes around right so and this is kind of a long I know what you but what progress have you made in the 16 weeks since you started your program I know this hands down like this this this I might get very emotional and I'm sorry if I do I'm just I'm very emotional about this but let's go life-changing in so many ways and not just the running itself but just the progression and where I am today has helped me in so many areas of my life I can't even if I would to tell you right now we'd be on here for three hours I hear you yeah but it's been it's given me so much confidence in so many areas I'm just being a wife being might you know running my business and just it's giving me confidence in so many levels that it's unbelievable because I'm doing things that I would in a million years not didn't think I'd be doing you know what I mean I'm pushing not pushing I don't want to say pushing my body for the limit is but I'm your challenge yes and I said thank you I'm challenging myself and I just it's amazing it really is any words I would describe this program life-changing okay uh that's that's great and more of the nitty-gritty what worked best for you in the program what worked best for me the schedule okay schedule was it was you know and I know that you know even at the very beginning it was you know before I started the program I you know Google Google this how do I do this how do I do that programs training programs I was like so overwhelmed and I almost did one of those generic you know I was very close to that I almost really gravitating towards that but if that was I couldn't do I said no I need someone that you know I need to figure this out and I need someone to help me figure out figure this out you know what I think that's not show the schedule and um is there something you think and these are open-ended but that the program there is a way to make it simpler or easier or it's good as it is or is like is there something that might be easier if you're starting out again to other people because we want to help other people this program it's not I mean it's not one-size-fits-all it is so individualized that it's I really don't think anything I can't think of anything that could be done to I don't think anything needs improvement for me I mean I think my program was perfect I think the way that it was structured the structure of it was great um you know every most of us we leave we lead crazy lifestyles and I you know that I have two jobs and you know I all of this what I did was you know on the and now my work schedule at my full-time job has changed so sometimes I'll run depending on the mileage sometimes I'll run in the morning before work and sometimes I don't it really just you know we make it happen but it's doable you you invest in this program you invest in your health you make it happen and I make things happen and I think that it's it's great I think it's I don't think anything needs to be improved I I really think that I hope sharing that story inspired you and provided you some hope if you want the one-on-one structure accountability and support from our healthy runner coaching team of experts check out the behind-the-scenes video tour of our signature coaching program you just heard about including other stories from runners who are just like you and we're struggling with the same sticking points before they signed up for our program just head to learn.spark healthyrunner.com to learn more and book your strategy call with me today now let's get back into this episode so I feel like that three mile mark is usually a great time to really start adding in some of those intervals anybody who knows me knows that I'm a huge fan of using strategic walk breaks and I say and that's a whole another topic but strategic walk breaks not walk when you get tired for like five minutes if you're looking for time but strategic walk breaks can be a game changer for actually hitting a PR people don't believe me but I I'm telling you and and if that may be in the temple run as well all right so coach cat I understand how to do the temple run I understand the sandwich concept I just learned that Duane's a big fan of turkey sandwiches vegetarian how do I all right so you got a lot of light you have a lot of lightest and pickles in between there you got a veggie burger in the two well I've been known to drink pickle juice as my my thing so that's not even hey that's it's great in the in the hot and humid weather for sure what how do I know like how fast they should be running okay when I go out there for my temple piece here is where I I I I kind of diverged like like coach Lou is a number person and I love Lou and I talk all the time we kind of split on this one a little bit he is a huge fan of the temple pace calculator I like it for experienced runners and he works with a lot of people who are trying to get to Boston who are trying to do these really insane like goals in terms of pacing mostly Boston you need a temple pace calculator you need to put in the temple pace calculator what your goal time is and it will spit out what all of your paces should be for easy runs long runs temple pace that is somewhere where I strongly suggest you utilize that you know that's very important for that type of training a lot of other runners are not they're doing half marathon or they're not aiming to hit that Boston number so at that point the temple calculator can almost psych you out sometimes because you'll put in a paint you'll put in your hand result of you want to run and I'm going to give an example a four-hour marathon and your temple pace may be an 830 or an 805 here's the problem you're putting in if you have no experience with a marathon you're putting in what you think or what you're going to do not what in reality you may be able to do so it's kind of an ego killer and I hate to say that but if you put in a four-hour marathon but you've never run a marathon and your halves are I don't like to give usually you can double a half and add 30 minutes for a marathon time rough thing but 15 to 30 minutes but if you generally think you know your paces if you are unrealistic and you're hoping for it doesn't mean you're not going to be able to run a sub for but if you are realistically or you've run a marathon and you're at a 450 a five-hour but you put in a four-hour marathon as your goal your temple pace is going to be too fast and it's numbers so I always tell people when you're doing that temple pace and you're not necessarily trying to hit a specific time goal but you still want a PR what I suggest is not initially using the temple pace calculator but running on the RP comfortably hard if you do put the calculator in be aware that you're going to have a little bit of a range and if you're and I learn the hard way but if your temple says it should be an 830 and you're looking at your watch in your first minute you're at 830 and you're like oh this is really easy you know you're going to start maybe second guessing yourself no stay with that pace but on the other term way if you're supposed to be at an 830 and you're at a 930 and you're struggling if you try to push into that 830 range you're going to be doing a whole different type of workout so if you're not experienced in terms of knowing your paces inside and out at this point I know my paces I've run enough you know I know what my temple pace should be for a marathon I know what my temple pace should be for an ultra but if you don't have that familiarity then a temple pace calculator can be helpful but only if you look at it honestly you put an honest assessment of your abilities and you really take it with a green assault and don't let it psych you out and you could have one tempo run it's 90 degrees in humid you're not going to hit your temple pace chances are if it's a nice crisp fall day you may exceed your temple paces so you always have to take into account when you're working specifically with paces that weather how you feel fatigue will all play a role so a lot of times I like people to run on that RPE comfortably hard out of breath but not gasping and run on feel more so than pace if they're not that familiar I hope that makes sense no it absolutely does and I love that you brought up those other variables and the one that I've talked about you know previously with myself learning the hard way like you mentioned I was stuck on that number and it wasn't because it wasn't my current fitness and I guess that's what I'll just reiterate your point with goal aspirational marathon time versus what is your actual current fitness because that's the pace you actually want to train at so ideally if you have run a 5k attempt a half marathon recently you're going to utilize that time as your current fitness to find out what the calculator pops out for your temple time not where your goal marathon time is because we need to train at our current fitness level because if you try for the aspirational goal then like you said you're probably not training in the zone that way looking to train in and get all these physiologic benefits of the temple run but the kind of learning from past experience for me was my I I was stuck I shared multiple times at a 144 half marathon time and my temple pace has been literally 740 745 for like the last two or three years so I'm very comfortable and looking at my watch and making sure that I'm staying at that pace but what I didn't realize is elevation is going to change an effort level and I got killed on that half mile incline a 10 year because I would try to still hit it and I'm like I'm going to call that hill I need to hit the 740 pace but what I didn't realize like dumb way back then didn't realize that oh you idiot like you actually exceeded and now you actually didn't get the really great benefits of maintaining and holding back and having patience at running faster for a longer period of time and working within that zone because you weren't going on effort I was just strictly looking at the number on my watch so I love your point about effort with the weather the elevation with the humidity all those variables even sleep right fuel hydration all that stuff is going to be a role I had a temple pace that I was supposed to be hitting and while I could hit that I realized it was moving me into it wasn't a true temple run it was moving me too fast so I adjusted my mindset which is always tricky it's ego anal rules us but I adjusted it to give myself a 15 to 22nd variable on slower and as long as I was in between a 20 to 30 second variable it was much more manageable took the stress out of hitting that target sometimes I was able to hit that low end other times I just couldn't do it and I was fine with that because I was still running on RP I was still putting effort in so I let that's why those pace calculators unless you are working like with coach Lew or somebody who really has to hit those paces consistently to qualify for a Boston I don't put I don't live in brief those that's just mine some people do but psychologically people underestimate the mental role and I'm a strong proponent of this all of my podcasts have always incorporated the mental aspect of running I've been very open about the the I did the podcast on how stressed I used to get about runs I've done the podcast about mental mind tricks from marathon so sometimes when we chase that number it can really not be beneficial for our running through our purpose of a temple run there's all I'm saying and just so the listeners know if you do want any of those previous trainings that I can't just mention just click coach cats bio I have the link with all of our trainings and you can learn more about those or treadmills or safety with running especially for your female runners oh god yes yes that was an excellent episode by the way everyone loved that very helpful but kind of getting back to this temple point and I would even honestly push back you just a little bit because I know coach Lew even though like he's the numbers guy analytics all that stuff he will still tell his runners though like here's the number for your temple run but don't let it fool you if right it is humid or if terrain still go on effort and so I like to think of the number as a guide and then like you said know yourself as a runner will numbers intimidate you if so don't even worry about the number go on effort only but if you're someone like me or a little bit more type in maybe I'd like a number around that I should be shooting for and then get the number but then also have a good self assessment and you know when the conditions are not best for you to be able to run at that time that your current level of fitness tells you it should be at and for most of the clients I work with I explain that to them you know honor deep that calls and I say okay now hey we got you being free right we've added in some strides haven't had a spike in pain at all here's the next level we're gonna go to is this temple run piece and running a little bit faster and you know I kind of give them a guide of where we're gonna shoot for but then there's always the questions after the run of how did this feel for you on a scale from zero to 10 and I'm making sure that their RPE level was and usually if we're just starting out I'm going more conservative so I want to make sure it's at seven right if they're telling me it's an eight then I'm gonna tell them okay next week let's go 10 seconds slower than you actually did this one right so there is some trial and error and you know so don't be afraid to kind of play around with that and really do an accurate self assessment that you were at a seven out of 10 and then always your baseline that you're comparing it to are your easy runs which should be at a four or five level and if your easy runs are out of seven or eight then like go back and listen to the easy run episode with coach Latoya because you need to learn how to master that first you can get to the temple run and to bring a blue again he is a strong proponent of running your runs easy absolutely he loves easy run he we all are but if you listen to his podcast or you listen to his posts on Facebook he is always saying run your runs easy don't go too fast you know you can tell Lou and I talk a lot yeah easy runs easy fast runs fast or hard run hard and that's the secret sauce essentially yes and you know fast runs fast meaning when we're doing our temple runs like we're running them at that temple piece and making sure we're in that range so I think we've kind of covered piecing with the temple run and kind of the calculators how we can calculate and it is going to be more beneficial for the experience runners are there any we kind of got into like some specific types of temple workouts but are there any types that we didn't cover that you would like to mention not again you can do a temple run based on distance or time you know and and the temple workout is again just that faster pace comfortably hard in between a warmup and a cooldown so the specifics are usually based upon your plan your fitness your distance if you are doing a ultramarathon your temple runs are going to be possibly I also should probably say this your temple runs may be slower for say in marathon or an ultramarathon if you are holding that pace for longer but your effort level and your RPE will still be at an eight so as the distances change you know temple runs for altars I'm not going to get into too much of that but your pace will be slower for a temple run than it is for a half marathon potentially but your RPEs will still be the same so I do like to add that in there and if you're doing usually once you go past marathon distance you start switching over to a time-based plan just for practical purposes but just keep in mind that that is going to be possibly your marathon temple pace may be slower than your half marathon temple pace and that's perfectly fine because you're running on the rate of perceived exertion the benefits will still be there you will still get those benefits even if you're running a little slower as long as your rate of perceived exertion is at that eight level if you're more experienced so I wanted to add that in there yeah no that's great and you know if we could sum this up in in kind of talking misgits option I know you said that word earlier but you know what would you say is is the big misconception that you would love to change about temple runs that they're complicated they have to be scientific that you have to hit a certain pace really those are my three things a temple run is just a faster pace you know I know there are scientific people out there like I said you want that come to me I'll cover you make you even fall asleep possibly but you know it doesn't have to be a specific pace if you don't want it to be it can just be a rate of perceived exertion of eight where you are comfortably hard run not easy not sprint you know people think it's this big they they over complicated sometimes and it doesn't have to be complicated anyone can do these like I said even if you're training for a five k you can do it the benefit may not be as great you may not see the biggest benefit from that type of run for a five k as you will in a half or a full but you can still get the benefit from it don't that's probably my biggest misconception I think people have is that there's temple runs are complicated they don't have to be you don't have to hit a pace you really don't have to if you don't want to if you want to aim for use a range don't use that specific use a range so that you give yourself a little leeway but that's probably the misconceptions yeah I love it and guys now that you really listen to this temple running training like you took the first step congratulations right now remember the next step is growing in your running journey by implementing it so if you don't know how to implement it and you want the guesswork taken away from you we gave you a lot of great tips today but if you weren't exactly following and you want to really learn how to implement and do it in a progressive fashion and get clarity and focus on exactly what you need to be doing for your training to hit your running goal then you can learn more about our high touch one-on-one spark healthy runner coaching program where you can work with coach cat or any of the other running coaches on our team that we are talking about today you can learn more by just going to learn that spark healthy runner dot com and schedule call with me and we will hop on a call to make sure it's a good fit for really what you're looking for and yeah we'll be able to take you to the to the glory days and really take you to the promised land of giving you that clarity that you need to grow in your own running journey and don't forget that we talked about our six steps to growing as a runner today there is a full ebook lot of training on all of those six steps that I mentioned so you can download that for free by just going to learn dot spark healthy runner dot com to get that free ebook as well coach cat as always it's always fun to chat running with you and learn something from your vast knowledge and experience that you bring to our healthy runner coach and team so thank you for taking the time on your very busy day to educate us all about tempo runs you're welcome I love talking you all know that anytime well yeah if you love talking then you're always going to be a guest on on our podcast yes yeah that's what we do here and guys thank you for listening to this if you're watching the video version on our spark healthy runner youtube channel we appreciate if you hit the like button it will just help youtube be like hey this is helpful content maybe more runners should actually learn about a tempo run and how to do it the right way and if you're listening on the podcast right now hopefully you are enjoying a run probably not doing a tempo run maybe you're doing a nice easy run but you're thinking about implementing this into your tempo run but hopefully you are really enjoying your run right now and getting those mental clearing miles in and if you enjoyed this episode you will certainly love our episode 159 on how to grow as a runner in those six easy steps that I talked about before so you can cue that up on the podcast or if you're watching on youtube you can just click the video that I have for you here next and as always let's maintain a strong mind a strong body and let's just keep on running until next time thank you as always for listening to the healthy runner podcast where we help you get stronger run faster and enjoy lifelong injury free running if you found this content valuable here's five ways we can help you grow as a runner for free one grab a free copy of our six steps to growing as a runner framework at learn dot spark healthy runner dot com forward slash grow to follow our Instagram page at spark healthy runner three join our free group by searching healthy runner in facebook four subscribe to our youtube channel at youtube dot com forward slash spark healthy runner five leave us a five star review so we can gain access to more experts in the running field and bring those lessons and trainings back here right to you don't forget hit the subscribe button on apple podcast or the follow button on spotify so you don't miss the next episode of healthy runner so you can maintain a strong mind a strong body and just keep running lastly if you've been struggling with the constant injury cycle not eating the right foods for running or not getting faster as a runner and you are ready to invest in becoming a lifelong injury free runner head to spark healthy runner dot com forward slash coaching to apply for a one on one signature coaching program thank you again I really truly mean it from the bottom of my heart that I appreciate you for listening and sharing this podcast with a running friend who can use the help now go and crush your run today see you next week