Will the Avs Bring Back EJ?

Well, hello and welcome into hockey mountain. Hi, your go to avalanche podcast presented by Superbook Sports JJ Jurez here, air of Dean doing some off season work for you here to talk some avalanche and maybe even a little Stanley Cup playoffs. Are you doing? Have you been enjoying the playoffs? It's been I can't believe it's already been what two weeks over two weeks, maybe even three weeks now since we've seen avalanche hockey. It honestly feels like JJ was April 30th. One round, one round. We've seen playoff hockey essentially. And it already feels like a whole off season. Three weeks ago today was game seven. Two weeks ago today, we had Peter Bond. Last week we took the week off. Here we are again. It's already been a week and a half since we heard Orlando Scott news. Things are flying off the shelf here. It's a little bit different from last year and in May of last year, May 21st of last year, the avalanche were getting ready for Darren Helm to score a goal with four seconds left to send him to the third round. We were very much in the thick of things. And now I wake up every morning thinking it's July 15th when it's May 15th, July 20th when it's May 20th. So it is a little bit different this year. And that's one year. That's one time the avalanche made one run. And it's already like completely screwed everything in my brain. But it feels nice to watch these other teams go at it. It feels nice to watch these other fan bases have their have their moments because you can relate to it now. It's not something that we were able to relate for the avalanche since 2001 or 2002 for the last time they've been in the third round. And now you can look at it and be like what the Panthers are doing feels so relatable. Seeing Matthew Kachuk do what he's doing where he went the whole series against Toronto without a goal. But now two overtime winners in a row just looks like unsung hero. You're like, man, that was Nazim Qadri or that was Val Nachushkin. You can so relate to it and it makes it so much better to watch the games. Yeah. I mean, now that we're here at the beginning stages of the third round, there's a couple of thoughts that entered my mind. One of them I said on the hockey show yesterday that it gives me FOMO, right? Because if you remember to last year and the avalanche is run, the conference final was when everything really ramped up. The conference final was when things started to feel real. And you're like, all right, the NHL is in charge now. You're starting to see a lot of big names, national pundits around you. Things are getting fun. But then I also think like man, in the landscape in the trajectory of the whole playoff run, these guys are halfway through, right? You get through the first two rounds, you're only halfway through. Yeah, you're in the final four teams, but you still have halfway to go. And man, that sounds exhausting to still have to be a part of two rounds of playoff style hockey for the players, not for me, not fans. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, think of think of the Edmonton Oilers a season ago, Conor McDavid, Leon Drey side old there, they're going on this crazy run and they're entering the third round taken on the high flying avalanche. They didn't win a single game. They won half of what you needed to win the Stanley Cup. That's it. And we look at Edmonton and we're like, yes, second best team in the West this year, they're going to win the West. They're going to make it to the Stanley Cup final. Obviously that didn't happen, but they were halfway there. They made it to the third round. They were one of the last four teams out of 32. And they want eight of 16 games like it's, it's so crazy what the grind is and what it takes to win. It's also fun right now in Denver with the nuggets fever going around. I mean, it's been fun getting to see that team have success, but it's crazy how I don't even want to say similar. I'm going to say identical. Their playoff run is to the avalanche playoff run from last year, right? It's the exact same. They swept the first team one second round in six games. And here they are looking to sweep one of the best teams in the West with two of the biggest stars in the entire league, right? I mean, that's exactly what the avalanche run was. So it's funny. And I hope they can continue that pace and complete the whole championship identically to the avalanche. That would just be fun to do mirrored seasons there. Yeah. And you know, we've heard Jared Bedner talk every time the playoffs start when all the media appears from the bushes that don't cover the avalanche on a daily basis. The first question they had, Jared, do you ever talk to Michael Malone? And he always talks about like he does give good answers to those silly questions of like, yeah, actually we do. We in Malone talk all the time. We talk about how our teams are very similar, how we have the same kind of upbringing, the same kind of development, I should say, of our teams, where, you know, Nicole, a kitchen, Jamal Murray are your Nathan McKinnon and Mico Rannin, like they're two guys that were on the team when they weren't very good. And instead of going out and signing the big names, instead of adding all the super team players at all the NBA teams to instead of adding our Temi Panerin or John Tavares or all the guys that you could have if you were the avalanche while you tried and Jack Eichl and all the guys you tried to add, we're just going to let these two guys grow into their own super team. And then we're going to surround them with veterans and the guys around them that give them what they need to win. You know, Aaron Gordon, KCP, Bruce Brown, like these are the kinds of additions that they made along the way they got obviously MPJ, which is the avalanche, obviously adding their other guys along the way, whether it's Byron or McCarle. Like it's a different sport, they're different positions. But it's very similar in that sense, which is really cool to see that like they're being rewarded for that now. They're taken on the big teams. They defeated the the sons who beat them last year. They was last year, right? Yeah, they who swept them last year, I should say, they're taken on the Lakers in this two headed monster in LeBron and Davis. And at the end of this sentence is about the end of my NBA knowledge. So here we go. It's hot to you. I was good to say you're getting a lot more into the nuggets that I expected you to there, but I like to be very in tune with every sport as much as I can. Baseball just kind of trails way behind because I can't. But I just spit it all out into 64 seconds. Well, and for us, you know, here we are, we are at ballerina very often, but we have to have this certain energy and persona to us. But for me, being a nuggets fan is something I get to actually do right as an avalanche reporter. I'm never an avalanche fan, but I don't have any media responsibilities as as a nuggets fan. And I get to go to a game. I get to boo people. I get to yell at the ref. And you know, yesterday I even wore a nuggets jersey on the hockey show. So getting to express my fandom is still fun too. So yeah, let's get into more hockey. Let's turn this more into a hockey conversation. Nobody here wants to hear about the nuggets on hockey mountain high. But yeah, I guess I want to start with the West Conference final. Of course, you look at the East Florida, the biggest surprised, even maybe the darling of everybody in this year's playoffs. But you look at the West and I wouldn't say it's at all surprising that these two are the two duking it out for the conference final. Would you? Not necessarily. The Western Conference is exactly, it's playing out exactly how we've been saying it was going to play out since like January, if not December, where any team could be there and it wouldn't be a surprise. I mean, given the way Seattle played and the fact that it was a game seven versus Dallas, if this was Vegas versus Seattle, I still wouldn't be surprised. Who was your pick? LA? I had LA. Yeah. I still wouldn't be surprised. My pick was Edmonton still wouldn't be surprised. Minnesota, I thought they would be Dallas, Colorado, obviously for obvious reasons. The only one that maybe what it kind of been a surprise is Winnipeg because of how their season ended. But even them in January when the Avalanche lost that game to Chicago, the 40th game of the year, and fell to 2017 and three, Winnipeg was number one of the division. They were number one of the West, I want to say. Well, a ton of the Canadian pundits were picking Winnipeg to beat Vegas in round one. Yeah. And game one, they not only defeated Vegas and pretty handily, they outshot them, I think 32 to 18 or something crazy like that. Like they found what they needed to do and then they just didn't do it again. So it wouldn't surprise me. And I look at Dallas now and I say, God, you should be so much better than you're showing. You shouldn't have needed seven games. You shouldn't have had Jake Audinger get pulled twice. You should have cleaned it up defensively. You should have won game one against Vegas. And then I look at Vegas and I'm like, man, you should be like breezing your way to the Western Conference final. And it hasn't really been as easy as you wanted it to be. But it should be easy for you because you are a stack team. But then also your goalies shouldn't be doing this well. Why is Aidan Hill winning games? It's that idea of whoever is going to be in the Western Conference final, you're going to look at them and say, doesn't surprise me, but also you kind of don't deserve to be there because you're not that good. It's a weird thing. Like the avalanche, we saw how they played against Seattle's fucking terrible, man. It was so bad. They're top six forwards. One of them being the guy that left halfway through the series, not even in Nichushkin. They're top six forwards each score to goal. You're top two defenseman of McCarran taste score to goal. And the only other guy to score to goal outside of that in seven games was for some reason, Eric Johnson, the game winner in game six, nothing from line three, nothing from JT Comfer, nothing, or sorry, nothing from Lars Ehler, nothing from Dennis Malgin, nothing from all these guys, champions, but you also don't deserve to be here. So it's playing out in the West exactly how we thought it would. Yeah, then you look at the Florida Panthers, right? And it makes you think about just getting hot at the right time, turning it on when the playoffs start or even slightly before, because they really had to play their way in versus, you know, what the avalanche did in really gunning for that number one spot, really trying to manipulate who they play in the first round. No, it's just about getting into the playoffs and playing your best game once you get there. You're going to have to beat the best to be the best. So why not start off in round one like Florida Panthers have? Obviously, that's not the goal you want to win. You want to do great. But again, the conversation you, me and Peter had about maybe a little bit too much emphasis on wanting that central division title versus, you know, maybe playing it smart for the playoff run. Yeah, I think they kind of fell back into that pre-standel cup habit of like, let's get some achievements along the way. And I think it also felt good for them to end. It's weird like sports athletes and sports teams like they like to create a story for themselves to be the underdog. Tom Brady is one of millions Super Bowls and every time he makes it to the finals, he has to stand up there and be like, ah, nobody thought I would do this again. And like, relax, dude, you're Tom Brady. We know you're going to do this again. Hell, what surprised me if you came out of retirement for the 15th time and want a Super Bowl next year? But like the avalanche fell into that habit. They fell into the habit of, you know, November, December, people were like, God, this team is just not recovering. No land is gone. They lost cadre. They don't have the depth. No burikovsky to score goals when you need it. This is just a shell of the team that won the Stanley Cup and the avalanche were like, yeah, maybe we are a shell. And then they went on that run after the Chicago game, the one that started a 31, seven and four run. And they said, you know what? We can do this. We can prove the doubters wrong. And they kind of blew their energy way too hard, way too quick, especially leading into those final two weeks where McKinnon and Renton and we're playing 20, 25 minutes a game, scoring hat tricks, each of them, one against San Jose, one against Nashville and the final game, scoring all these goals against Anaheim, just against teams that are not going to be in the playoffs to reach that goal to say like, they said we couldn't do it and we did it. And then you got to the playoffs and you just had nothing left. Yeah, real, real tough. But hey, at least they get to hang up another central division banner in ball arena. But no, I'm curious now that, you know, Jared Bednar's had some time to assess and step away from the game and step away from the season. I wonder if he would try to do things differently down the stretch or if he likes exactly how it happened, right? Because at the end of the day, it just seemed like Seattle was the better team. And then you look at the second round and Seattle losing the Dallas in seven, you're like, all right, Seattle is legit. They're even giving Dallas problems and fits. I don't think you can really say that, you know, the avalanche were awful. But I think also looking at a second round exit for Seattle, you can kind of say, you know, there's definitely another level that the avalanche just weren't even close to reach it. Yeah, absolutely. That's the reality is this team wasn't good enough to win. Energy aside, right? I mean, even if they saved up, you know, and load managed every single player, I still think it would have been a similar result. 100%. Like this team wasn't good enough to win. We rode exactly what I said. Let's not do back throughout the regular season where I said, let's stop saying the avalanche are contenders just because they're the defending champs. But that's what we did. We continued to say the avalanche are contenders because they're the defending champs. And when you have Makar, McKinnon, and Renton, especially playing at the level they were playing this year, where Makar had probably, and I say this word and I use it lightly, his worst regular season of his career and was still a norisetrophy finalist. And Mikora and his score 55 goals. And Nathan McKinnon did what he did going way up over 100 points and being a top three, four player in the NHL in terms of point production on a point-per-game pace. They did the, you know, they, we did exactly the thing that I was saying, let's not do of saying the avalanche are contenders because they're the defending champs and what that led to was a division title that they probably should enough one. And it is impressive that they did it. But again, they went too hard too fast at the end. And then the playoffs showed up and you saw exactly what the signs were. It was a team that lost a lot of depth, that also lost its captain, that lost a val in the Chushkin along the way and couldn't recover. I even remember a podcast you and I did probably a year and a half ago when they were making their run at the Stanley Cup finals. And before that, they were in the race for the president's trophy. And they weren't really at the top of that race until kind of the same story. Post all star break. And before the all star break, you and I were sitting here like, you just got to get in. Don't worry, you just got to get in. And I think that message maybe needs to be adhered to a little bit more come next season, less about the in season accolades and just get in and then turn it on. Because if you're playing for one trophy that really matters, you have to act like that's the one that really matters. You can't play so much importance on these other accolades. Yeah. And the reality is like, let's use the Boston Bruins as an example. The Bruins lost in the first round. But it's hard to say they did what the Avalanche did because they rested players at the end. They didn't overplay their top guys. Their minutes were down compared to the avalanche. And my favorite thing, I heard this on a podcast once where a reporter talked to a coach and kind of said, like, do you guys feel like you've reached your peak too early in the season? And he put it the coach put his hands up and said, like, what do you want me to do? Tell my players to not win because we're winning too much in February. Like, it doesn't work that way. But as the head coach, as Jared Bedner, I think there were some learning lessons in the 2022, 23 season that he didn't even have in the 16, 17 season of how to handle things, of how to approach your top players. And he kind of like he fell on the sword all the way to the very end in game five, where I asked him a question about Nathan McKinnon's ice time. And he said, he feels great playing 23 a night is normal for him this year. And if we got to play him 30, we will like he really drove home this idea of, I don't trust my team. I have five or six guys that I trust. And that's forwards and defense been combined, not even six forwards. And I'm going to play those guys because that's my only chance to win this thing. And I think Jared's got to learn a lesson from that. I think the avalanche's brass has to realize that there's a lesson to be learned from that. I think one of those lessons from the organization as a whole is, you know, not only did Jared Bedner not trust his team, he didn't trust any of the AHLers to call him up. Right. I mean, Brad Hunt being a forward in that last game tells you everything you need to know about what he really felt about all those, you know, bubble guys. Yeah. And that's why they started to fix that by going out and signing every kid that got a college degree this year and said, Hey, come join our organization. Here we go. We'll pay for your cap and gown. Like they're trying to find a way to mitigate that issue. But it's it's it's a lesson for everyone. It's a lesson for Joe Saka and Chris McFarland that depth matters. And the last three, four years, you've kind of been spoiled with depth that you didn't realize how important it was. Because think back to a couple years ago, the avalanche lost Don Scoy and then lost Brandon Saad. And you and I sat here for an entire offseason saying, sign Thomas Tatar, sign Thomas Tatar, like, there were no options. And then Nick Tushkin stepped up from the third line. When Khadri was suspended, Tyson Joe's played pretty damn good as a second line center. When JT Comfer was having his terrible season in 2021, they stuck him on the fourth line as a winger with Carl Soderbergh center and said, you sit there, we have other guys to do this. They were spoiled with depth that they didn't realize that as soon as the depth is gone, snap of a finger. So too is your team. And that's ultimately what happened this past year. So, you know, I've already seen Peter Ball write about it. I've seen Evan Ravel write about it. I'm going to write about it. The avalanche in order to help Jared Bedner not make this mistake. And the lesson that Jared has to learn is to rely on his depth is to give him options. The avalanche really got a shore up their middle six because if Val Nachushkin is healthy and ready and can play, you have Nachushkin on your second line. And then you got nothing else because Landis Gogg is not playing this year. You got Lekkine on the top line. You have no 2C, you have no two winger and your entire third line. Maybe Alex Newhook, you got a lot of shoring up to do in that middle six. Yeah, exactly. So still early in the offseason, we'll see how it all unfolds and unravels and what kind of moves they make because it's going to have to be an improved team from the one that we last saw, you know, to have any hope. And we know that this window is open. They want to keep it open. So, you know, they're going to have to invest in the team both in time, energy and money. Yeah, absolutely. And look, the conversation none of us want to have, but as a reality is this team, what they do over the next 10 plus 30, 40 days and told July 1st. So let's say the next 50 days, what they do over the next 50 days is really going to determine a lot about this window of if they can win. Because I hate to break it to everyone. Like winning a Stanley Cup doesn't guarantee you that you have this window and you're going to win. Washington spent forever trying to get over the hump and the hump being the second round. They got over that hump in 2018. They haven't done it since the St. Louis Blues couldn't get over the hump. They did in 2019. They won the Stanley Cup. They haven't since. I just, I get kind of tired of the narrative that losing in the second round means failure, right? You look at the Toronto Maple Leafs and everything that's going on up there. And it's like, now they have to completely revamp their front office. We'll see what kind of trades and moves they make all because of a second round loss where you are one of the top eight teams in the NHL. So yeah, we'll get into the Maple Leafs because that's a fun conversation. But like the idea, the reality is like winning the Stanley Cup and doing it multiple times is not as easy as people want to make it off to be. What the LA Kings did winning twice in three years, the Blackhawks three in six years, the lightning two and two years and almost three in three in a row and the Pittsburgh Penguins and 0-9 and then I think the lightning is the most interesting one too because they had to get rid of guys that they loved to continue their progress forward, right? If we can no longer afford you, we need to find a cheaper replacement for you, which is, you know, a tough bill to swallow. Exactly. That's what the Avalanche didn't do this past year. So like another team that I want to give an example of outside of St. Louis and Washington. And this one's a little bit of a stretch because it's not the same. Like when you compare apples to apples, it's not like that. But the idea of what happened to this team is very similar. The Winnipeg Jets in 2018 made it to the Western Conference final. Do you remember that series? Winnipeg versus Vegas? That was Winnipeg's year. They blew it. They genuinely blew it. But they had Jacob Truba. They had Dustin Bufflin. They had Brian Little. They had who's the other one. Ben Chirot was playing out of his mind on defense. You know, they lost a lot of blue liners that summer. They had a lot of guys on their team that made up the identity of who they were. They had Patrick Linet, early parts of his career scoring 40-plus goals. They added Paul Stasney at the deadline when he was still playing at the top of his game. They had a lot of guys that made up their identity. Well, then the offseason happened. Jacob Truba asks for a trade. Dustin Bufflin disappears and says, I'm done. Ben Chirot leaves for Montreal. Brian Little has his injury issues. Never plays again. Then they eventually have to make some other moves. And what basically happened is, you know, the Avalanche have McKinnon, Rannin, McCar, Byrum, Caves. They have the core pieces of their team. Well, the Winnipeg Jets still have Kyle Connor and Shifley and Wheeler and Connor Hellebuk and Josh Morrissey. They still have key pieces of that team, but they lost a lot of identity, just like the Avalanche did. Now going into year two without Landis Gog, no Kadri, no Burikovsky. They lost their starter, replaced him with another starter, not as big a deal because it's not Connor Hellebuk and couldn't recover. And the Winnipeg Jets haven't recovered from that sense. What we thought was the start of a window for the Jets quickly became their only hope and their only chance because they quickly lost two or three guys in the offseason that they couldn't recover from their loss or replace them. And we have to look at the Avalanche and think, if they don't go out and replace these guys, you're in trouble because your second line center question was up to Alex Newhook and then you replaced Alex Newhook with JT Comfer. Well, now a lot of people want to trade Alex Newhook, me included by the way. JT Comfer is probably not resigning, so now you don't have Kadri or the two guys that were in over their head and replacing him. There is a big giant hole and don't tell me Jonathan Taves. Don't tell me Jonathan Taves is your line two center. Jonathan Taves would be a good pickup for this team, you know, with his past aside, just the hockey player of him would be a good pickup for this team as a third line center, not your top center. So there is a big decision to be made there. No gay bland discog, you better replace him. Evan Rodriguez, is he coming back? Yes, no, you got to replace him because that was your replacement for Burakovsky. You need more goals. You need more scoring. Absolutely. I mean, the scoring is the glaring issue, but I think you hit on something there that I think is another issue. And when you lost Nausim Kadri, you lost Swagger. When you lost your Swagger, you lost your identity, you almost lost the culture that helped you get to where you need to be. Jonathan Taves comes in. Yeah, he's a great addition, but is he a culture guy? Is he a guy that's really going to bring back that Swagger? No, I don't think so. So having a guy with some confidence, some skill, the ability to bury the puck is going to be super important because it's been proven year in and year out. Nathan McKinnon just can't do it by himself. Uncle Ranton is a great piece. Him and Nathan McKinnon can't do it alone. They contribute a lot, but you need four lines, at least two. You absolutely do. And you lost that Swagger not just with 91. You lost it with 92 as well. And he's not going to play this next season. And even Burakovsky, you know, he wasn't the most impactful in the lineup, but you know, in the locker room, he absolutely was. You remember you and I went around for his return early in the season and asked all the guys what their favorite memory of him, of Andre Burakovsky was. And they all started the sentence with a smile, with a chuckle. He was an important piece in that locker. He was very well liked 100%. But even on the ice, the Swagger, the bite, you didn't replace 91 or 92. Josh Manson played 17 games. Like there's a lot of that on the ice bite that you were missing that they got to focus on this year. They just, they got to do it. They got to do it. They got to add the bite. They got to add the goal scoring. You got to get creative. You got to do things. And like, I don't, I don't say this lightly. These next 40 to 50 days, 40 days, we'll get you to July 1st, 50 days we'll get you to when all the UFAs are pretty much gone. Unless you're cadre and you wait till late August. These next 40 to 50 days are really going to determine what this team is. And the fact that Gabe Landis Gogg is going to be LTI Art all year opens up 7 million. I did the podcast with Nate Lundy after Landis Gogg and McFarlane spoke. And you know, I talked about with Nate how this is the perfect time for that to happen. This is the perfect time for Landis Gogg's thing to happen. If there's a silver lining, if there's a positivity take, it's that it happened this year because Landis Gogg and his 7 million going on LTI Art for one year doesn't mean that you can only bring in, let's say, someone like Ryan O'Reilly for one year at 7 million. And then next year, you have to save that space for Landis Gogg. No, this is the last year of the flat cap. If the cap doesn't go up, which hasn't been confirmed yet, next season the cap goes way up. So if you sign someone like O'Reilly, let's say to a four year deal at 7 million or 6 million, I only use him as an example because he's a UFA. You give him a four year deal at 6 million. This season, he fits because he replaces Landis Gogg's number. And then the season after where you're hoping Landis Gogg returns, the salary cap is going to shoot way the hell up. So if there was ever a time that this could happen and it's a good thing for Landis Gogg, it's now. So you don't have Landis Gogg 7 million. You could trade Sam Girard and open up another five million, granted you got to use a little bit of that to replace him. And suddenly you have a lot of flexibility, but you got to get creative with adding the guys because having the cap space doesn't mean you automatically get the guys, you still got to make the trades, you still got to negotiate the deals for unrestricted free agents. You got to find a way to get those guys in and they got to do that. And if there's ever a year to let the Seattle Kraken beat you in the first round, it's this one, right? Let the NHL pile on that money and get out of this cap era and, you know, almost, you know, avalanche, we're doing their part to make sure the cap goes up. You know, Nathan McKinnon knows all about that stuff. He's well versed in it. The flat cap. We're going to get rid of the flat cap. As McKinnon said last year in the Western Conference final pre series pressers, he said, McKinnon versus McDavid, does that interest you at all, Nathan? And he said, no, that's just for you guys to write about I only care if it helps lower escrow. So that's where McKinnon is at. So, yeah, I mean, Seattle going, going another series was great, but obviously at this point, Florida, Carolina, Vegas, and Dallas is not that bad. Not raking in the dough is not raking in the dough, but I hate those conversations. I tweeted about it a week ago, like nobody cares. No, it's going to be Denver versus Miami instead of LA versus Boston in the NBA championship. Nobody fucking cares. Let that if you can't have 32 teams or 30 teams is my argument. If you can't have 32 teams that can win a championship without you losing money, then don't have 32 teams. Well said, well said. I guess this is a good spot to talk about our friends at Superbook Sports. And we have a new read. You know, I'm excited when we get a fresh one. So guys, bring that big bet energy this summer with super super book sports. I love that big bet energy, right? Superbook sports is the most trusted name in sports betting. And right now use promo code mile high to score up to $250 with their first bet bonus. Winter lose. They will match your first bet up to $250 with promo code mile high. Simply visit superbook.com for terms and conditions or download the superbook Colorado app in the app stores. Enter promo code mile high and you'll get $250 courtesy of superbook sports. Gambling problem call 1-800-522-4700. What a great promo that is, right? Go in, say I'm going to go make a $250 bet with superbook sports. It doesn't matter what happens to it. It's basically a free bet, a free chance to win money. So seems like a no brainer to me. If you haven't dabbled in superbook sports, even after we've told you for months now, I think now might be the best time to go ahead and try it. Just pop in that mile high sports code. Get yourself $250. No brainer. Yeah. Glad you agree. Glad you agree. Yeah, you teased the conversation about the Toronto Maple Leafs. I know you have a fun little exercise, I guess, for Avalanche fans and how to tie it all into the Avalanche. So, Eric, take it away on Kyle Dubas and the debacle that is the Toronto Maple Leafs. God, it's been just such a... It's so wild. Brendan Sheerhan going up there and speaking with the... Like, not just peaking behind the curtain, like he ripped the curtain down. He said, come on in and here's all the details. And the way he actually explained all that is wild. It is the biggest story in the NHL and it should be the biggest story in the NHL because there are guys in Marner Matthews and Kneelander that might get traded this summer. And for Marner's sake, his no trade clause kicks in and 40 days on July 1st. So if that's the guy you want to trade, you got to figure it out in the next 40 days and you don't have a general manager in place to do it. You have somebody who's an interim right now and Brendan Prennub, their backup, their assistant GM to Kyle Dubas at the time. So a lot of question marks there. But what I want to talk about was a Kyle Dubas era. And, you know, for our well-versed Avalanche fans, the Toronto Maple Leafs went out on a limb five years ago in signing John Tavares to an 11 million dollar deal and then signing Austin Matthews and giving him the money before he lets, you know, use air quotes, earned it, even though he's earned it, but the salary cap sucks. But before he's won anything, giving him 11 plus million, giving Mitch Marner 10.9, letting William Neelander sit out until December and then giving him 6.9 when he probably didn't deserve that much. Now he does, but not back then. And it's four guys that ate up 40 million dollars in a cap that was 81, 80 and a half, half the cap. But it was also with the idea in mind that by 2023, the cap is going to be like 95, if not 100. Only kicker as COVID happened. And, you know, that's not something you can plan for. But Toronto went out on a limb. They tried to do something different. They tried to give their stars half the money or a big portion of the money and then plug and play around them. They obviously had to plug and play fewer pieces as the seasons went on because of the flat cap, because of COVID. But they also didn't kind of shift their thinking. That's where Kyle Dubas, I think his demise was he didn't shift. He doubled down, tripled down, quadrupled down on this core. But the avalanche connection comes the summer before Kyle Dubas was hired as the general manager, because he was the AGM. He was one of the AGMs to Lule Marello. And then Brendan Shanahan quickly had to let Lule Marello go and give Dubas to job. And do you remember when that happened? I absolutely do. Yeah. And do you remember the summer before when the avalanche were at a laughing stock of the NHL and they inquired about Kyle Dubas to replace Joe Sakke. 100% me and my at the time podcast partner, Zach Fog, were sitting there talking about, who's this Kyle Dubas guy that the avalanche talk to? Yeah. So Kyle Dubas was looking to be the GM in Denver in 2017. And it likely would have kicked Joe Sakke up to the president role he has now, because Joe probably thought to himself, man, maybe I don't have what it takes to do this. And then he eventually found what it takes to do this, which included fleecing Kyle Dubas in a trade for Nossum country. But so there's a nice connection there too. But the reason why that's relevant is because, you know, last year, the avalanche elevated Chris McFarland. It was something they were working on and talking about for a couple of years, because they knew if they didn't do it, he was going to leave. Somebody else was going to scoop him up. He had to interviewed for a couple jobs. He had interviewed for the Pittsburgh job when Jim Rutherford had left and Ron Hexsell eventually replaced him. Chris McFarland interviewed for that job. He also interviewed for the one in Anaheim, I believe that Pat Verbeek got. So the avalanche kind of new. And as soon as they wound the Stanley Cup, they said, great, this is a cherry on top. Joe, thank you. Let's elevate you Chris. It's your team now because if we don't do this, now we're going to lose you and we're going to regret it. And they had to act fast. Well, the Maple Leafs had to act even faster because Toronto had a core. These young players all stepping in at the same time in Marner, Neelander and Matthews. And they all needed new contracts. They went on that exciting run in 2016, 17 against the capitals and then 2017, 18, the first of the two Boston series where country got suspended, you know, they were starting to build something and then they had to give all these guys a new deal. And who is the best GM in the NHL from the old school bunch to pinch every dollar out of a young player? I don't know, Schonberg, Lulee Morello. Schonberg, I'm in Brian Burke. Brian Burke, I know that's what I figured you meant. Well, yeah, Brian Burke's up there, too. But Lulee Morello. So what ended up happening is Lou didn't get to negotiate those contracts. A very young and inexperienced Kyle Dubas was thrown to the wolves to give new deals to Matthews, Marner and Neelander and ended up overpaying each of them by like $3 million. Or hell, if you're going to give Matthews 11.3, give it to him for eight years, not for five. Because now he's about to make even more than that. He's going to become the highest paid player in the NHL and probably doesn't deserve to be so. So that brings me to the Avalanche point. Colorado elevated Chris McFarland because they thought he was going to leave if they didn't do it. When the avalanche came knocking on Kyle Dubas's door and the Maple Leafs allowed him permission and then rescinded that permission and said, you're not talking to them, they told Kyle we're going to elevate you faster than we thought. And they did it probably a year too early. And if it wasn't for the avalanche, Lulee Morello would have negotiated those contracts. Matthews, Marner and Neelander wouldn't be making as much money as they are. Taveras probably wouldn't be there for 11 million. They would still probably have Caudry and Connor Brown and Zack Hyman and the depth guys that they lost along the way, they probably would have won something if Lulee Morello was able to be the experienced, respected GM and would negotiate those deals. But Kyle Dubas was thrust into that position early because the Avalanche talked to him and the Leafs were worried they were going to lose him. And how much would Toronto's life be completely different if they had Lulee for one more year and were patient one extra summer on Kyle Dubas to let Lulee take care of those deals first. And it really makes you think like there is a lot of shit going on in Toronto, a wasted era as Steve Dango called it. Because the Avalanche came knocking on Kyle Dubas's door when they were desperate in 2016-17 after having the worst season, one of the worst seasons in HL history. Makes you think? Sure, sure. I think obviously his goalie decisions were pretty awful in the last couple of years. So I point to those a lot. And yeah, who knows if he was thrown in too early or too late, but I think at times you got to try something. I mean, he was one of the, I guess what we were expecting, a wave of younger GM's, right? Because of Shaka had just been hired in Arizona a little bit before. And you're like, okay, Dubas is the next one up. I credit them for trying something different because now you know whoever lands that new GM spot is probably just going to be a recycled GM, one that's already done it in the league, one that's already proved that he can do this or that. And you know, I think it's something that a team like Toronto had to try. And like I said, it's a bit of an overreaction to completely clean house after a second round exit. But at the same time, it feels like something stale there. They need some sort of of shakeup. But I don't know if going back to an old, you know, men's boys club GM is the right move here. They need to go to the next guy. And it's Eric Tolsky at a Carolina Don Woodell's assistant, I believe is what he is. Either him or Brendan Pridham, who they already have in place right now as an interim, like give that next young guy, the next young wave guy, the job. They wanted Kyle Dubas back and they didn't bring him back because of this weird drama between him and Brendan Shanahan, the fascinating presser that Shanahan gave on Friday. And if you guys haven't listened to it, please go find it. It's really fascinating, which ended up in the beliefs overplaying their hand, not signing him last summer. To Kyle Dubas overplaying his hand in his negotiations this past week. And now you are stuck in a situation where Matthews, Marner and Neil Andrew, there are questions to be had, decisions to be made ASAP. Like right now, these decisions need to be made and you now don't have a GM. So it's wild. And yet you wonder had he ultimately come to the avalanche back in 2017, what the team would look like? Because I'm always curious about that John Tavares signing, right? He had some sort of little performance or video and a combination of things that really wowed John Tavares that we still don't even know the details of. Hopefully one day they came out, but what he could have done here, who he might have targeted and done this whole show for. I am a massive Kyle Dubas fan. I think he was inexperienced in the beginning. He learned and he grew. He figured it out along the way. He was able to right a lot of wrongs. He's found so many good players. Like Zach Hyman was a Florida Panthers draft pick. I think he traded a seventh or a sixth round pick for him and said, hey, just come to Toronto and ended up being the Zach Hyman we know and love today. Michael Bunting, $850,000 contract for two years from the Coyotes granted and did very sourly with his issues with the refs. By the way, I think Michael Bunting is a great fit for the abs. So like that's another example. The way that he was able to revamp the entire team this year, the way that he was able to, you know, despite making bad goalie decisions, he was always able to undo those decisions. He was always able to find the next guy. The Jake Muzzin trade was great until Jake Muzzin was hurt. The TJ Brody signing was great. Like he really did do a lot of good things. And I think he's one of the best GMs and he's one of the best up and coming young GMs. And he's going to be a lifer for as long as our podcast is going, Kyle Dubas is going to be around. He's going to be running teams. And he really changed the culture of a Maple Leafs team that when I lived in Toronto was a laughing stock. It really was they didn't have structure. It was just a shitty place to be. It was this organization with a lot of arrogance. And it's not that anymore. It's it's a new wave of a progressive way of thinking all because of Kyle Dubas. And you just got to hope the new guy doesn't screw that up. But obviously Brendan Shanahan is part of that too. I'm not as big a Brendan Shanahan fan as a Dubas fan. But that avalanche connection there always makes you think what would have happened if the avalanche got him? What would have happened if the avalanche didn't talk to him? What would have happened if Kyle Dubas or if the Maple Leafs chose Lulee Amarillo or Mark Hunter over Kyle Dubas, there is a big connection there. Obviously the future connection being the Nasm cadre trade eventually happened shortly after Kyle Dubas got that job. Well, don't forget the Dres for Morgan trade. Yeah. No, Dryden Hunt. Dryden Hunt. My bad. Yeah, for Dennis Malgin, our Lord and Savior, Dennis Malgin that couldn't score into playoffs. Well, with all the front office talk, I guess it's time to get to our summer series here, right, where we're breaking down different elements of the Colorado avalanche season that was starting with looking at a group of the old guys. I want to call them. I know you didn't call them that in your article here, but we're breaking down the article for what this offseason is going to look like for the team. So you broke down a little story with Eric Johnson, Darren Helm, Jack Johnson, and Andrew Kugliano. And I guess what their future with the avalanche team looks like. I guess break it down for us what you think about all those guys and what, or I guess who's going to be around and who's probably going to get see you later. See you later, whether that's retirement or see you later by going somewhere else. The only one that you didn't mention that I also talked about, I didn't put up in the title, is Lars Ehler, just because he's also kind of part of that same age group and a veteran on an expiring deal. I'll start with Eric Johnson and Jack Johnson. You can't bring both of them back. It's ultimately my point with them is you can't bring both of them back. You need to kind of shore up a little bit of your depth on defense. And if you trade Sam Gerard, that means you got to add two guys. I don't think Jack or Eric should be an everyday player that plays 82 games. But I think they should be a number seven defenseman for when you have an injury because it'll happen real damn quick with this frickin team. But I can't see them having a place for both. Well, let's get into that a little bit. I mean, ask any avalanche fan to pick one or the other. Chances are they're leaning Eric Johnson, right? Just because of A, he's a little bit younger. We've got a lot of history with him here. But I think if he hits free agency, I'm not sure there's going to be that much interest in a guy like Eric Johnson from other teams to where I think the avalanche have a good shot at getting him cheap because he'd probably himself would rather stay here as well. He agrees with all you avalanche fans. And if he has to do it at a little bit of discount, I'm sure he'd be happy just to get a couple more years in the NHL. Rather than, you know, having to leave team, start a whole new life, start a whole new, I guess, presence on a team and have to prove himself still where he's comfortable and loves it here. There's potential here. I could see him signing here for cheap if they want to keep him around. Yeah, absolutely. I can see it too. And mind you, when I'm giving my opinions on this article, like, this is not the end all be all the make or break for the avalanche. We already talked about the other things they need. So if I have an opinion on this and the alternative happens, it's not going to shift my thinking of how this team operates or if they're going to win. But it's easy to say Jack Johnson's better right now, is it not? Like, who was better in the stretch? Who was the better player? Who was Jared going to play in game one of the playoffs before a mysterious injury happened after morning skate? He was going to play Jack and sit Eric. Eric really lost a lot of speed, his step, his stride, his game. He lost a lot of it this past season. Well, Jack Johnson never really had it, but he had it more than Eric. Well, I would say he had a more defensively sound game, right? And yeah, I'm with you 100% Jack Johnson was the better of the two. But I think as far as upside, I don't know if one edges out the other because, you know, one's strengths is another one's weaknesses and vice versa. And there is no upside here. It's not like one of these guys are going to go out and have a career year. It's just the reality of who's not going to mess up as much. And at that point, I think Jared trusted Jack more than Eric. And I think I do too. And if the avalanche are going to bring one of them back and knowing they both probably want to come back, I would think Jack is the one to go to come and Eric's the one to go. I do think if Eric doesn't sign here, he'll probably kind of look around the NHL, realize it slim pickings and hold retire. I think Jack, if he doesn't come here, will sign anywhere to make money because, you know, he has a past where he needs to make a couple dollars. So it's an interesting conversation. If I was to pick one, I would pick Jack all the while knowing what that means, although I'll knowing the history with Eric Johnson and how, you know, like Landis Gog and EJ have been here since 2011. EJ got here before Landis Gog and they won the cup together. And two years later, Landis Gog is going to come back and there's no EJ. There's like, it's going to be a different feel. And if EJ signs a one-year deal, Landis Gog still might not play with him. So it is a little bit like the emotional like side of that is tough to say that I would prefer Jack over EJ, but also the teams that win are the teams that make those tough business decisions and know that you can fall in love with your players, but only to a certain extent. And you can't lock everybody up. You can't keep everybody the whole time and you have an emotional attachment to EJ. But if you need a number six, number seven, demand, again, it's not going to make or break the team. But I'm confident saying Jack would be better. I'm not going to argue with you. I think you're very much in the same position with either guy again, one guy brings some things better than the other. And again, you're feeling the same role. I think you can't have two of them, both of them. Exactly. Yeah. And that's kind of where I'm at. So even if they only bring back Eric, then he's got to say, buy to Jack, don't go out and re-acquire him at the deadline. You need better than that at that point. So it's an interesting way to look at things. But yeah, those are two guys. And then obviously, there are the four words that they have to figure out as well. And Darren Helm, Andrew Kagliano, and Eryf's biggest bust, Lars Ehler. First of all, Kagliano, if you heard Chris McFarland when he talked to us a week and a half ago, he said it was a six to eight week time frame for his return from the neck fracture. And then obviously, we saw the picture, you were at game three or game two for the nuggets. Kagliano was there with McKinnon. No neck brace. So it looks like he's yeah, he's chilling. So it looks like that six to eight week timeline is on pace. So I also think that that tells you something that he's still in town, right? I mean, yeah, yeah. That is a good point, actually. The biggest thing for me for Kagliano, and I'm going to say this for the entire bunch that includes Eryf and Jack, that includes Lars Ehler and that includes Darren Helm. Kagliano hasn't lost his step. He looks fantastic. If he wants to come back, he give him a deal. He comes back straight, simple as that. Kagliano wants to play sign him. Try to get him for less than the 1.25 he just made. He's a good player. He scored 10 goals and nine assists as a depth forward. What more can you ask for? And he has the bite that we were talking about the veteran presence, the locker room presence. He brings it all. If Kagliano wants to come back, he's back. Any arguments with that? No, I mean, not to mention he does what Jared Bednar loves most, and that's kill penalties, right? And I think there's a lot of emphasis on that on this team with penalty killers, with guys who bring effort and with leadership. And Andrew Kagliano checks all three of those boxes. Yeah. And then for the centermen, Lars Ehler and Darren Helm, they're both easily replaceable. But do you? I don't know. It's hard to look at those two because I look at Lars Ehler and I say, yeah, there's no chance. What do you do with this guy? And I even wrote that in the article like, yeah, he's not that important. He shouldn't waste a lot of time on him. I didn't even use a lot of words on him because, you know, it's not worth wasting a lot of time on. If you need a fourth line center, go sign literally anybody. But if Lars Ehler wants to stay and be a fourth line center for League minimum, you can't you could do a lot worse than that. It's not terrible. But also the first choice should go to Darren Helm if he's healthy, which I don't know if he's healthy. But if Darren Helm having six months off between April 30th, well, for him, pretty much the entire year, having this entire summer off without trying to rush back into the game action, if that will get him back to full health where he can give you 65 to 82 regular season games plus the playoffs like he did in 2022, then yeah, bring him back because I don't think he lost a step this year granted. It's hard to say because he didn't play because he was so injured. He played 12 combined games out of 87 between the or 89 between the regular season and playoffs. So if Darren Helm wants to come back and if he's willing to do that League minimum contract, if he's healthy, why not? But also, why would you risk your fourth line center and an old guy that's broken when you can goes back to the Lars Aller thing sign literally anybody. So maybe I'm falling into that whole thing that I just said to not do of falling in love with your guys that you want with. If Darren Helm can't do it, if that's not the guy, maybe you look at Lars Aller, but you also should look at the UFA market. You should look at the trade market, try to bring somebody in hell. Maybe Ben Myers is ready. He looked pretty good last two games, three games that'll play offs. So a lot of things there. But my conclusion from these top five veterans or from these five veterans is Cagliano's healthy and ready to play. You sign him. No ifs, answer buts. One of EJ or JJ potentially one of the two center men. But if they both go, it's not going to make anybody upset. Yeah, I'm with that. I wouldn't even go as far as to say potentially. I like your stance and I get it. But I think, you know, injuries were the biggest problem of the year. You're not going to get 100% Darren Helm. Yeah, ever again. That's true. I think you can find somebody for just as expensive who will be 100% and you can count on to be reliable in your lineup because yeah, he shows up to training camp. He says he feels good, plays a month, and then he's back out on the reserve and in and out of the lineup the rest of the year. I think just just moving on from age, I think is something the avalanche could maybe focus on here in the in the offseason. They used to be one of the youngest teams in the NHL and then at the snap of the fingers, they added a bunch of dudes in their 30s and suddenly here we are. Yeah, well, I mean, that's what you have to do to win. You have a bunch of young guys that grow together, then you surround them with veterans and you went a cup and that's what they did in 2022. And also they're going to add guys with a little bit of age like John, John, Jonathan Taves, not John Tavares, Jonathan Taves is a little bit older. If Adam Henryks the guy, he's a little bit older Sean Manning, Monahan's a little bit older, like there are a lot of options that they could add that are going to have some age to them to Tarr and Nyquist are both UFA's. So we'll see on that sense, but yeah, I mean, I agree with that. Like the big one that sticks out to me is Andrew Kogliano, more than EJ as much as he has a history here, more than JJ. If that guy wants to come back and his neck is feeling fine, which it seems like it will be in six to eight weeks from the day of the injury or from the day of when we talked to Chris, bring that dude back. He was incredible, but play him on the fourth line. You got to have the depth to keep him down on the fourth line, not like last year. And I will say, watching him walk around ballerina when he was injured, right? He had no neck brace. He was just in street clothes looking nice. He still walked around with this confidence of like, I'll be back. I'm not done. He didn't have the, oh, I'm about to retire energy about him. That dude is such a competitor. He's a machine. He's incredible. So yeah, those are the five guys. I think we're in agreement there. I like bringing back two of them. I think three of them you could probably say goodbye to and find better versions of them, not to insult them or disrespect anything that they've done in the last couple of years, but it was telling what happened this year and the problems that they were in into in the first round. I think they're all solvable with just some different names. Absolutely. Like I said, shore up the depth. Don't let this team fall off the grid like the other examples that I gave earlier. These next 40, 50 days really will matter. And they're going to be very big in determining how long of a window the avalanche have. Right on. Well, we'll be here throughout the 40 and 50 days to break it all down. And hopefully the avalanche give us some news. It's been a while. We haven't heard any news that I have a Lange Lane since the Gabe Landeskog thing. So we'll see how that starts to change as the Stanley Cup playoffs wrap up here in the next couple of weeks. So yeah, I guess that's all for today, right? That is it. Cool, cool. Pretty long podcast for off season. I love the laid backness of us just kind of like chilling. Yeah, cool. Me not talking as fast. There isn't that regular season or playoff urgency. It's just let's sit back and talk a little bit about hockey. Yeah, I mean, I thought it nice. The people that are listening to us, especially if they make it this far in the episode, the people who genuinely like us, right? So I think an off season is a good chance to maybe show a little more personality, be yourself a little bit more and not adhere so much to the game plan and the the rundown that we often stick very closely to. I'm here for it. If you ever want to just hop on a podcast and just talk whatever, yeah, I'm here for it. Yeah, we go. I mean, we spent the first five minutes talking nuggets today. That's true. I mean, we got an entire summer for me to smack you up in tennis and ping pong too. So whenever you whenever you're down, you just let me know wish brother you wish. Cool. Well, yeah, I guess we'll end it here. Thanks for hanging out with us today. Hope we help you start your week early. If you're listening to us on Monday, if you're listening to us at all, we thank you very much anyway. So if you made it this far in the podcast, bless that pretty little heart of yours. Let's make hockey for everyone. We out you. You. .