Ask HTM - Combining Our Finances, Dental Insurance Considerations, & When Whole Life Makes Sense #712

Hey, it's Joel, and Matt, and if you're like us, you're probably staying up way too late, asking questions like, how can I hate my taxes less, or did my recent medical bill really have to cost that much? Well, look, you can go to bed at a normal time, because Freakinomics Radio, one of our favorite podcasts, is here to help. Freakinomics Radio has more than 500 episodes worth of answers to your biggest money questions, with the help of fascinating guests, including CEOs, artists, and Nobel laureates. Make sure to check out their new series about the economics, the politics, and the ethics of returning the world's art to its makers. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, this is Annie. And Samantha, we're the host of Stuff Mom Never Told You, a podcast about intersectional feminism and all the ways it impacts and is important to all of us, from social justice, health, fashion, entertainment, and everything in between. And now, we're coming out with a book that takes an even deeper look at some of the topics important to us. We dig into the people leading movements like civil rights and the Jane Collective, and so, so much more. Available August 29th. Three order your copy of Stuff Mom Never Told You, the feminist past, present, and future, now where books are sold. Or get yours at stuffyoushouldreadbooks.com. So how does a half American, half Nicaragua and party girl from New Orleans have absolutely no journalism experience, break the biggest story of the eighties? That's what Journalista is all about. I'm a woman, wife, theater, t-shirt, not wearing a bra, curses like a sailor. I got balls bigger than any man. Dan Radley used to call me his secret weapon. Listen to Journalista every Tuesday on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to How To Money, I'm Joel, and I am Matt. And today, of course, it's Monday where answering your listener questions. Yeah, buddy. I had to say my name real clearly there just to make sure everyone knew my name. I don't want anybody to forget about me, Joel. But we've got- Don't you worry about that. We've got a listener question. Monday episode lined up for folks. We've got a question from a newlywed couple. They've got a money question specifically about combining their finances. Another listener is asking about dental insurance. Wanting to know whether or not it's worth it. And another listener, she has a less than ideal insurance product. And we're going to talk about that. Plus, we're going to get to two additional questions. I feel like two of these questions are right in your wheelhouse because people always ask you questions about marriage and dental work. You know, because it's two things you've got a lot of expertise on. Why did you get your dental work? Well, Mandy, this is all natural right here. So literally, I think we've even talked about this before sitting at a particular light near-ish our house. There's this giant billboard. And it's a billboard for- I don't think it's a dentist. It's somebody that does veneers. And they've got the most gnarly before and after pictures of these guys that I swear must have done meth. Or something like that by their teeth. I hear that really deep. It look, I mean, their teeth look terrible. And then it's like 24 hours later. And it's a picture of this handsome dude. And it's literally the exact same dude. It's crazy. The mirror is dentistry. Yeah, what new teeth do? And the girls are like, is that really the same guy? I'm like, sweetie? I think it is. That's what veneers do. Yeah. It's impressive. Because of that, I feel like we talk about dental work more than the average bear or the average family at home. But yeah, we are going to get to those questions. Well, it just heads up to listeners. If you missed our announcement last week, we're taking the list of questions every single Monday from here on out. So if you have a money question, holler at us. You can always submit one at howtomoney.com slash ask or just email us with your voice memo. But we're going to be taking a lot more double of the list of questions we use. There's like a higher chance of your question getting answered. Yes. So please submit one. If I'm out real quick, I just want to mention my buddy Tim, our mutual buddy Tim. He, so I know that Tim. He did, he booked a flight via Delta. And the thing about booking with the major airlines and not booking with one of the discounters is, or specifically Southwest, is that there are change fees involved when you are, you know, looking to switch up your dates or your times or something like that. And often they're pretty inflexible. Southwest is great for that because they can be. And you know, they've got, they've got a premium product. So like we don't have to cave to your request. I guess your demands. I guess it's what they think at least, right? I personally am partial to Southwest. But he'd called anyway and he said, listen, I know this is like not your policy, but could you help a guy out? And old Delta, well, I mean, Delta probably doesn't want me revealing this. But Delta said, okay, sure, yeah, well, yeah, I think they don't want other people doing this. But this is one of those things where we always talk about asking for a discount or asking for some help in one way or another. And lots of times a business like that is going to be like, no way. But if you ask nicely and if you ask the right person, you really might get help. You might get your flight changed without having to pay a fee. Like there are all sorts of ways that you can ask to be refunded for something or to change something about a service that you've received. And the worst they can do is say no. The worst that happens is that the policy as stated is what you, is what you have to like be abide by. So that's right. Just could us to Tim for doing the right thing, asking and encouragement to everyone else out there listening. Like ask for the discount. It gets to show that even though you know, it's like, well, I know what the rules are. Like they're going to say no. But you don't know what they just announced earlier that week. Like what HR or whoever, like the performance folks, what they send out and what they're willing to make concessions on giving the industry. Given what's going on, giving internal changes that might be have, might be happening given. What their earnings are that quarter where they're just like, okay, we got to turn things around. We're going to start making some concessions. Maybe it's like demands lower or actually to fly. They want to switch to is less packed. And so we want them to be on this other earlier flight. So we'll do it because it helps us out. You never know exactly. I love it. Yeah, it does not hurt to ask, Joel, let's introduce the beer. Are you ready for a big one here on this Monday? Always. This is a, yeah, this is a bigger beer. This is Angel of Darkness by Wicked Weed. And what's crazy, you can tell that this is Wicked Weed from a couple of years ago, because it's like the old label. You know, they did a rebrand. That's the great thing about a good sour is sometimes it takes better a few years left in the bottle. So we'll give our thoughts on this one at the end of the episode. It smells great. But Matt, let's give it the topic at hand. We're answering listener questions on this episode. Let's give it the first one. This one is about your pearly whites. Hi, Matt and Joel. This is Phil from Annapolis. I wanted to get your opinion on dental insurance. I know you've mentioned other financial instruments in the past, such as home warranties and so forth, and episode number 700. I thought that you might have a unique take on dental insurance. From what I understand, most dental insurance does have a cap as what they pay out, and also there seems to be a $50 deductible pretty frequently. So anyway, I welcome your input, and thank you very much. I feel like Phil needs to take the mat route, which is not only avoiding dental insurance, but avoiding dental work. Just, it has been 10 years. Well, I got my teeth checked out last. Was it last year? It's right before we moved. It had been 10 years before I had previously seen the dentist. Well, your philosophy has always been... If it ain't broke, that would be fixed. If my teeth weren't broke. Well, I mean, it depends on people. You really can't do that. Dennis, why do I need one? Hey, it's true. But it is a personal thing, right? I'm lucky enough to have healthy teeth, healthy gums. When I went last year, no cavities, baby. Look at that. Hey, let me throw... Some people are naturally predisposed to have clean mouths, I guess, and you're one of them. So here's a thing. I might be assuming that all of our family members also have the same teeth as I do. So this is where the real... Phil, I promise we'll get to you. We'll answer your question here in a second. But Joel, so we haven't taken any of the kids in to get their teeth checked. And our oldest is 10. She has not yet been into the dentist. Obviously, we've got younger kids as well. And so that's the potential frugal or cheap where I might... Where Kate and I, it's both of us, where we might be going a little cheat because we haven't taken them into the dentist. But it's also because, in the state of Georgia, you need a certain form filled out in order for them to go to public school. It's the Georgia Department of Health form, 3300. I know it, because it's always kind of a battle to get your pediatrician to sign it. But they are authorized. They can sign off and say, oh, yeah, I've looked at their teeth. They're good. And I figured... And I also authorized to roll their eyes when you ask them to do it. They're like, just take your kid to the dentist. But I figured if there's something bad enough that a pediatrician, your family doctor, will be able to catch it. But at some point, I do know... If there's something really wrong, hopefully your pediatrician will be like, yes. Yes. Come on. Exactly. And speak to you forthrightly. But at some point, yes. I do know everybody don't send in the hate, you know. We will take our kids to the dentist. But it's a thing in our household. Literally, Kate. Man, this is long-winded. Last point. Did I... Have I shared that Kate got me dental tools for Christmas last year? No. Did I... Have I ever even told you this? No, I didn't know that. It was like a stocking stuffer. It was like a joke. But literally... Of course it was. Like the little pick with like the little scraper. She got me a little... Like it was a pack that you could buy of dental tools in... I'm like, babe. You're just... You're taking things a little too far here. I think I'm not going to like... Poke myself in the gun. You know, like that's like the painful part. Let me re-infuse getting your teeth clean. Anything you hear on this podcast should not be done verbatim. You should listen to the advice of a trusted medical professional. I have not used these tools. I'm just saying it. I think it was part joke, part... He actually might want to give us a shot. Let's get to Phil's question. Sorry, Phil. Let's get to it. And specifically talk about dental insurance. And our thoughts on it monetarily. We won't dental insurance. Matt's... Not dental care. Lack of desire to go to the dentist. Impact our advice here. I don't mind it, actually. I don't know. Like when I go into the dentist, it's actually... I think I almost view it like you getting a massage where somebody is... Yeah. Working on me, making me... Weird. Healthier and better. You're the only person who thinks that, I think. Do you feel that way when you go to get your car tuned up? I feel so good after getting my car tuned up. I'm just like, oh man, this thing is part... Oh, and I'm glad I did it. Ready to go. Right in the moment. I'm like, this is painful. Yeah. Not terribly painful. My teeth are fine, too. Okay. Let's get to Phil's question. And first, the question is, how are you getting this dental insurance policy? Right? That's true. Because if it subsidized through your employer, it's likely still worth it. Because you're paying a fraction of what it actually costs to have that insurance. But if you're buying it as an individual, it's not nearly as important as you think from specifically from the financial perspective. It doesn't mean that you shouldn't go see the dentist. But it means that you might not need the insurance. You might not come ahead having that insurance. And so, like all insurance policies, the specifics matter. Health insurance is a no-brainer for most people. And not because it allows you to get cheaper prescription drugs or, you know, doctors' visits with a copay, we should do away with copays in my estimation. I don't think it's a good part of the insurance system. But the whole reason to have medical insurance is because how you're going to be covered if something catastrophic were to happen. The annual out-of-pocket limit is like the best benefit you have. That's the best part of health insurance. Knowing that you're not on the hook, be on a certain amount. Yes, you get the worst, most devastating diagnosis, a life-threatening disease or injury. And, you know, the hospital bills could rack up and say, guess what? I'm capped at 10K or 12K out-of-pocket for my family, whatever. That annual out-of-pocket max is your saving grace. It's not the wellness visits or check-ups that allow you to come out ahead. Because cash payers actually often do pretty well for themselves pricing-wise. So, I would say this, Phil, I would say don't be afraid to ask your dentist office for discounts for paying it full when you get the procedure done. Be like old-tim. Yeah, never heard of that. Unless you have this massively discounted dental insurance policy through your work, which in case, like I said, it might make sense. But if you're looking at buying one on your own, on the open market, it might make sense instead to deal directly with your dentist forward the work you need to get done. Yeah. I like that direct-to-patient model. Me too. And it was the concierge medical services that are starting to crop up. But, yeah, I totally agree with you. The thing that makes health insurance so crucial, like that is the same thing that makes dental insurance far or less necessary. Because most people are just using their dental insurance to lower the cost of their routine visits. Right. To get a free cleaning, except for your paying for the premiums throughout the year. It's like a credit. You're like prepaying. It's like you've joined some sort of dental club and you've all agreed to keep your teeth extra straight and white. Right. Which is fine. But I'm just saying there's something to be said for the British model where everyone's got crooked teeth. What's going on with that? Come on. So, yeah. If you're getting your teeth cleaned, you know, your insurance it might cover the full cost. Actually, there's basically like a hundred, eighty, fifty model. Right. So it's one hundred, like if you're going in for routine maintenance, like just a cleaning, they typically cover a hundred percent of it. If you even have a cavity, a lot of plans, they only cover eighty percent of that. But if there's something even bigger, like something more catastrophic, like a crown or something, they only cover fifty percent oftentimes of that procedure. Sometimes even less. Yeah. It's twenty. And it really depends on the policy, which is why the details are exactly. But like I had something that where my dentist was recommending that I get some sort of mouthguard. But it was, no, the insurance company then said, and this was back when I had traditional health insurance to my employer. They said, actually, this is orthodontic. And we only cover orthodontia stuff up until you're eighteen or twenty five ever yet. I was like, I'm much older than that now. So you're not going to cover it. It's just a part of it. It's like I get the same mouthguard at like the sports store, like with the football players. Yeah. Right. So I literally did buy one on Amazon and I can. Is that really what it was? Yeah, where you like take the measurements or you take the pressure in your mouth. Yeah. It's one of those things where you don't know sometimes what your, how your insurance is going to classify it or what work you need to get done and what percentage is covered at. That's why it's important to dive into the details. Yeah. The key question to ask before you opt in to go out there and maybe get dental insurance if you're so inclined is what your premiums are going to be. And then what the policy covers because if let's just say routine cleaning it costs 150 bucks. And then your plan, let's say it costs you three hundred dollars a year in premiums and say you're only allowed, you're only able to get cleaning done like once a year or something like that. Well, for you and the specific instance, the insurance, it probably doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Yes. And like Phil alluded to Matt, dental coverage usually has an annual max payout and certain procedures have ridiculously high co insurance payments. And so dental insurance is a case where ditching it and opting to self-insure really can make a lot more sense. So instead of paying for a portion of the work being done, just pay the full price of the cleaning, the cavity fill, whatever it is. The premium money you've been able to save by canceling your insurance policy, funnel that into a savings account to pay for those procedures that you need done. Plus, it allows you this added flexibility of being able to shop around before you actually go in to see the doctor. But again, so much of the equation comes down to your own dental needs, the price and the coverage. So it's not like we're mass recommending everyone to ditch dental insurance, but it just really depends on the individual and depends on your own dental needs. That's right. Yeah. Okay. So one interesting additional option, if it's looking like you might need more significant dental work done, is medical tourism, which sounds kind of crazy. But it's actually becoming more and more more popular. My preferred destination and article. You have the polar bears. Okay. It's becoming more popular, specifically because it's becoming more affordable to go to another country, to fly and pay for medical procedures, specifically dental care in this case. Often times you're able to stay in a nice hotel on the beach kind of thing. Yes. And that's number one way of me. Way nicer than just running an errand and, you know, like make a trip out of it. Sure. Literally we've talked about, was it with Marshall Allen? We talked about Molar City. We talked down in Mexico. Yeah, down in Mexico that people are crossing the border to get solid dental work done at a fraction of the price, Costa Rica. That's another top destination. But for you, run the numbers. Because, you know, even after paying for the airfare, paying for the hotel, not to mention if you're able to get it out of discount because you've got points. But it might make sense to get on a plane, get some more dental work done abroad. And you definitely don't need dental insurance in order to do this in order to partake in some medical tourism. So, we want you fill to take care of this chompers, man. But I'm a disclaimer here. Floss every day. Brush twice a day. Maybe three times a day. Like, do those things. Do you floss every day? That's the biggest kind of insurance. It's kind of like, I'll get to that one soon. It's kind of like the cell phone case, like the case for yourself. The preventative medicine is always the best. You don't need the expensive insurance coverage if you put the case in. The prevention is worth a pound of cure. And does that mean that your phone will never ever get a crack screen? No, but you've done 90% of it for the cheapest possible price. And so that is, that's the thing to do. As long as you're doing those main things every day. And going to see a professional often enough, I think you can ditch dental insurance. You don't need it. But run the numbers. Run the numbers. And I floss twice a week. Okay. I should floss every day. Yeah. I've been doing it more regularly because my daughter and I were talking about it. And so we're both trying to... Well, with kids, you want to instill the habit. But their teeth are... They're little mouths. That's true. They're teeth are so far apart. They're like, why would you floss? I'm like, because food gets in between your teeth. And they're like, no, it doesn't. And I'm like, what? Show me your teeth. And they're like, open. And I'm like, oh yeah, there's like... Let me poke around with a sharp instrument. Your mom got me. It's all gappy in here. You don't have your grown-up teeth yet. Yeah. But it's still good to instill some of those habits on a related note. Kate just bought... Okay, do you all use string floss that you wrap around your fingers? Or do you use flossers? Lossers. So they just like... They make it so easy. They make it easy and fun. They do. I used to always toss it a little more, but it makes it more... Oh, you like that I'm going to do it. You buy the bolt pack at Costco, which is what Kate did. Anyway, I'm a recent flosser convert. I'm a fan. There you go. Yeah. I'm doing it way more often because of that. Nice. Are we've got more questions to get to fill? I hope that helps. We're going to talk about other body parts next. Yeah, yeah. This is really going to dive down the medical rabbit hole in a big way. Well, we're going to talk about life insurance in a second. And that's like something you need if you die. Well, but what kind you need and can you get too much or something that's too expensive? We'll talk about that and more right after this. Hey, it's Joel. And Matt. And if you're like us, you're probably staying up way too late. You're asking questions like, how can I hate my taxes less? Or did my recent medical bill really have to cost that much? Well, look, you can go to bed at a normal time because Frekenomics Radio, one of our favorite podcasts, is here to help. Frekenomics Radio has more than 500 episodes worth of answers to your biggest money questions with the help of fascinating guests, including CEOs, artists, and Nobel laureates. Make sure to check out their new series about the economics, the politics, and the ethics of returning the world's art to its makers. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. What's up? This is Chris Rudiger. I am the owner and co-founder of the 615 House. And you're listening to my new podcast, the 615 House podcast, right here on I Heart. As an artist and entrepreneur myself, I feel incredibly lucky that I get to live in a city where there's so much creativity and artistry. And this podcast talks about it. It's a chance to take a deep dive with some of Nashville's hottest artists as we learn their stories and ask them questions about creativity, social media, and just how to balance life in an ever-changing industry. We talk about virality and how building a sustainable career is not as easy as it looks. My favorite part is that we get to learn the secrets and stories that you don't always hear on camera. And I try to keep the questions pretty spicy as these artists sit in the hot seat. Come on in, hang out with us as we talk to some of your favorite artists here on the 615 House podcast. Listen to the 615 House podcast on the I Heart Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get podcasts. Deep in the mountains of Greece, the country's most-wanted man has been on the run for over a decade. He's a bank robber, a barrage of shots, a kidnapper, bang, bang, bang. But to many Greeks, he's a hero. He'd steal a car from a village and return it with a bag of cash on the seat. Someone even told me he paid for an elderly man's surgery. His name is Vasili Spalio Costas, and we're hunting for the man behind the myth. This modern-day Robin Hood represents the fight against a corrupt system, but it won't be easy. They say, no matter what happens, you'll never find them. I'm Miles Gray. Listen to the Good Thief on the I Heart Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. All right, man. We are back from the break, and yes, we will get to that question on life insurance. But first, let's hear from a listener who has just recently gotten to Money Gear Number 5. Hi, Matt and Joel. This is Renee from Pennsylvania. First time, long time. I love your down-to-earth advice and the fact that you're not trying to scam your listeners with time shares. My husband and I work full-time. We don't have children, and we are not planning to have children. Our debts include our mortgage, 0% interest loan for our new HVAC system, and just under $20,000 in school loans. We are finally at a point in our finances where we can think about investing. A, Money Gear 5. We are both contributing to our employee matched 401Ks and employer HSAs with plans to increase those contributions each year. We have about $60,000 in a high-heeled savings account earning 4.25%. And we continue to put money in that account almost every month. I would like to start investing some of that money, but I'm not sure where to start. When I look at CD rates, they don't seem that much better than our savings account, unless I'm misunderstanding the rates. I'm interested in something like a Praxis Money Market account that has a positive social impact associated with it. What do you suggest for our next move? Thanks. Renee, those timeshare scams are coming. We're going to start pitching those. Probably tomorrow is my guess. It's been a minute since we've talked about time shares. No, that's false. I'm just joking. We're not going to add something we like. We'll never go down that rapid hole because time shares are the worst. People should avoid them, and it's very, very rare that I hear someone Matt who's like, I love my time share. Most people are like, how do I get out of this without losing my shirt? What's the little website where I can go to trade or sell? Because folks, yeah, they're tired of them. Sell it for literally pennies on the dollar. Actually, I'll pay nobody values to take over the responsibilities. Nobody values time shares on the secondary market. That's for sure. They're sold, not bought. Renee, but onto your question. It sounds like you've paid down a lot of debt. It sounds like you've created a sizable chunk of savings. Plus, you are investing in some smart ways as well. The question you're asking, what are the next steps? How can you invest some more? We want you to focus less within the savings sphere, the different savings products here, and more on those actual investment accounts that you mentioned, because while it's a spectacular thing, that savers that they're not getting clobbered anymore except for the ones specifically with the big banks. They're still getting paid the absolute least. That being said. They haven't raised rates at all. No, yeah. Ramping up your savings even more. It's not going to necessarily get you where you're looking to go. It's a good idea for short-term goals that you might be saving up for, and quote-unquote, investing for. But when it comes to long-term investments, you need to change basically your mindset. That's how it is that you're looking at your money. Because you might feel more comfortable adding to your high-yield savings account, right? Socking more money into a CD or that money market fund that you mentioned. But the way that you're actually going to make bigger strides in order to grow your wealth is by embracing the risk, but also the reward that comes with investing your money. I think it's gotten more volatility that you're going to expose yourself to, but that is how you're actually going to grow. It's become easier to be more comfortable being a saver because rates aren't complete crap. Right? They're not all the way down to the dumps like they were for a decade plus. And so now it feels like, oh, cool. I can make close to 5% on savings. So maybe I'll just be happy savings and I won't think about investing as much. But the truth is, over the years, over the decades, you're losing out on meaningful additional returns by prioritizing saves. And yes, you need, like with cash, you need savings. But you don't want to save so much that you're not investing as much as you could or should. And so I think one of the tricks is the fact that most folks aren't necessarily comparing their expenses today. Right? So we've all experienced inflation. Yeah. And we're not necessarily some folks are, which is great. But at the end of the year, when it comes to your savings account, you get a little statement and it tells you this is how much you earned this year. And you're going to say, oh, wow, that's so much more than last year. I'm earning so much money by investing my money in a high yield savings. But what they're not looking at is the itemized breakdown of how much they spent on groceries, for instance. And if you were automatically sent that, I think that would have an impact on how it is that you view the money that you're spending. Yeah. And the money that you're saving, not necessarily investing. Yeah, you'd be like, oh, man, I need to out earn this inflation. Yeah. Exactly. Which is the main reason to invest in the first place, right? That inflation is steadily eating away at our money. And so we need to invest to grow that money so that, you know, we're not getting stung by inflation over time that we're able to kind of mitigate that and actually outpace it, right? And so the thing is, I think Renee doesn't even necessarily need to open up a new account. You've got plenty of good ones already at your disposal. It sounds like, and I love that you already have plans to increase what you're putting into that 401k and that HSA. But it might make sense to ramp up contributions to those even sooner than maybe you thought. Like we're all about liquid savings, but it's a good idea to see how many months of expenses that $60,000 you mentioned you had. How much would that cover? Like do you need that much or would $40,000 suffice? Would that be enough? Like if that would be plenty to cover five or six months of expenses and your jobs feel steady, I would be funneling more of that cash into those investment accounts for the increased tax and wealth building benefits that you're going to receive. Yeah, I would say as you're looking at the amount of money that you have to decide, make sure you have, because you mentioned a 0% loan that you've got on your HVAC, which I get it sometimes were in situations where we don't have the money on hand. But it sounds like you have the money on hand and maybe you chose to go with a 0% HVAC loan because you're like, oh, why not? Hang on my money for longer. I just want to make sure that you have a plan to pay that off once that 0% window closes. Sure. Because like, okay, so there aren't really like quote unquote HVAC loans, oftentimes they're just personal loans. And personal loan rates vary widely. So like anywhere from like 7% all the way up to 30%, like 35%. And so they're counting on folks getting used to perhaps not paying that and then all of a sudden they roll out of that window and boom, if your credit is not so stellar, you're going to be on that higher end of that unsecured loan, and you're all of a sudden paying 30% on something that you didn't have a plan to pay off. And so Renee, it's like I was furniture commercials you see on TV. Yeah, no payments, no interest until 2035. And it's like they're hoping that you're going to forget communially about when they're going to come calling. Yes. And then you owe a lot of money in the interest. Exactly. Yeah, but Renee, she seems organized and I'm guessing they have a lump sum set aside that when the time comes, you're going to bloop, pay that thing off, but yeah, just make sure, if not though, make sure that you do have a plan for that and that you've got that much money set aside. In addition to your emergency fund, but make sure you're taking that into account as well as student loans, resuming as well, because it sounds like you've got a couple more 20,000 in student loans that will be resuming. Yeah. So just a quick note on savings and making sure that you're not fully depleting those that you're looking at in the full picture. Yeah. And I guess I mentioned that Renee doesn't, you know, likelihood need another account. She doesn't need to add anything else to the mix. I think if she's just kind of getting closer to maxing out both those two accounts that she's currently investing in, she's, she's a lot of the way there, right? Like she is doing a lot more than most people can or do. But there is one of the things that's probably worth mentioning when it comes to crushing your retirement account goals more fully. And that is adding one additional account account to the mix. And Renee, you and your husband, you could likely consider and you probably should consider the Roth IRA. It's, that would be like the trifecta, essentially, with the other two, HSA, 401K, Roth IRA. Doing all the above, funneling and maxing out the Roth IRA and the HSA, those two together, would be incredible. And then getting at least the match on the 401K. And then any additional dollar, I would say, should go into the 401K after those two are maxed. You can contribute up to $6,500 annually each into those Roth IRAs. And if you're doing all the above, that would be a lot of investing, right? Which you might not be able to do all the above or at least be able to do all the above this year. But even just opening the Roth investing a little, that would be a great start. And so we would say, yeah, again, saving money is important. But saving's alone aren't going to fund retirement. So make sure you're not leaning too hard in that direction. Just because rates are higher and it feels a little more comfortable, it doesn't mean that you should rest on your laurels. And just kind of allow your savings to accumulate and accumulate. Unless you have specific short term to medium term goals that you're saving for. If these are long term goals, we want you putting more aside in those retirement accounts. That's right. Yeah. And you ask specifically to about putting your money with maybe a money market fund that has like a social bent or something like that. And we would caution you against going with a bank or somebody that's paying you less than what it is that you can get competitively on the open market. You specifically asked about praxis. And they're actually, you know, we look them up. They're paying 4.8%, which is pretty dang good that they're paying that out to the customers. But also have a social benefit that they're providing, providing the community, right? Yeah. And so in that question, whether or not that is good, it's more of a question about whether or not she should be doing more savings and less investing. Exactly. Exactly. But as far as those medium term goals, if you are looking to move your money into something like that, that's totally fine. I just don't want to see you necessarily getting like 2% to 3% at the expense of that they happen to be doing some quote unquote good. When you don't, you may not necessarily know what good it is that they're providing for a community. It makes me think of like ESG investing and even S&P, like the rating agency. Like they just dropped ESG, like the rating because it's like, what does that even mean anymore to different companies? I have the beholder and it's gotten pretty murky. Well, on the ESG and we've been covering that for a while in the show. It's not that we're against doing good or caring about your environment. But just do it separately from your savings and investing. And so for instance, like if they were only paying at like 2%, I would say, well, shoot. Get with a high yield savings as paying you 5%, but then take a portion of your money and donate it directly to the different causes that you believe and just keep them separate. Specifically the good that you're able to provide the community in the world. It just helps things to remain a little more clear. Proper alignment, you know. Yeah, exactly. Alright, let's hear from our listener who has that less than ideal insurance product. Hey, Matt and Joel. This is Robin from Northern Colorado. I have a question for you guys regarding whole life insurance. Back in the 90s, I was in the Marine Corps and started investing with an investment bank that caters largely to the military. In general, it's a good company. However, I have learned that perhaps they did not always have my best interest in mind with regard to their near insistence on getting whole life insurance, which I ended up doing. My three children also have their own whole life insurance policies. In recent years, mainly from the good advice from my fiance and also from reading some articles on your website, I'm now convinced that whole life insurance is not all it's cracked up to be. And I probably would do better with a term life insurance policy for the remaining years that my children are dependent upon my income. My question is, what should I do? I wonder what the tax or any other financial implications might be if I close out the policy. Should I invest what remaining cash I get back into some other investment vehicle or maybe put it towards a term policy instead? I appreciate your thoughts on this rather confusing financial matter that has bothered me for quite some time now. If you guys ever find yourself in the Northern Colorado area, I'd love to recommend some of my favorite breweries. And if the timing is right, you might even get to see some of my artwork on display at these breweries. I have a super cool side hustle painting art and recycle wood that features the Colorado flag. Thanks guys. Robin, first off, we dig the side hustle, the small business that you're starting, right? It's true that there are some good companies out there, by the way, that don't do a good job advising their customers as they're making big financial decisions. Even companies that we like don't necessarily do the due diligence, especially some of these financial companies, that they should do with their customers. My mom was thinking about rolling over a Roth 401k recently into a Roth IRA with fidelity and they were like, cool, let's do it. And they didn't really ask her any important questions and they didn't notify her about the five year rule. It doesn't mean that fidelity is not a great company with low fees, but man, that was a little disconcerting to hear that they didn't like ask those questions of her. We're shooting an email that said, this is what you should expect. Yeah. Got it. Yes. So once again, I think this reveals the need for more basic financial education in schools and maybe less complexity in the rules overall. But it's something that impacts all of us every single day of our lives, this money thing, right? We're dealing with it all the time. Yeah, most of us we graduate learning nothing about it. And the truth is a lot of financial mistakes can be mitigated, but man, wouldn't it be nice if we work to prevent more of these financial issues? From the get go, I think we owe it to generations of future Americans to help teach them what it looks like to handle personal finance as well. Yeah, especially something like a life insurance policy that you're stuck with paying for decades down the road. And you might not realize until a decade is gone and you're like, wow, that's a decade of returns on money I could have instead invested that I lost out on this true. Yeah. And so the whole life policies that she has specifically on her kids, Robin, those are the absolute most unnecessary that you have. They're all kind of unnecessary. We're not like not life insurance in general, but whole life specifically. But the entire purpose of life insurance is to cover loss of income in the case of your untimely death. And so unless you're your kids, I think you said you have three of them. Unless they earn you money, right? Like if they're child stars, like Alah McCallic-Hulken, right? They're probably not contributing to the family finances. More than likely, they're actually a drain on them. They cost you money not to say that kids aren't worth it, but they're not bringing in, they're not carrying their own weight, right? When it comes to the financial situation. And so what I'm saying is that there is not even a need to have term life insurance on them at all, which is our absolute way of life on them. But any sort of life insurance. Any life insurance. Exactly. Even a cheaper kind. Zero life insurance. That is the right amount for each one of your kiddos. If are you, I'd be getting rid of those policies as soon as possible. Yeah. And some people will say, oh, but we need a policy on our kids to cover potential barrel costs. That's a case for self insurance, not a case for life insurance because that is not the purpose of life insurance. But yeah, so cancel those things to get those premiums back in your life every single month. And then when it comes to the whole life policy that you and your fiance, you're soon to be husband half. Well, whether or not you're going to want to ditch those, that depends on how long you've had those policies in place. And what changes there may have been to your health in the meantime. Because on average, the premiums are 10x. Sometimes more than what a term policy would be. So in the case of term, you might pay $18 a month. Well, for your whole life, it might be $200 a month. But, you know, at your age and your health factor into those premiums and what you're actually paying. So that's a pretty good rule of thumb. I would say when it comes to thinking about how much cheaper term insurance is likely to be. But like, let's say for instance, you've been diagnosed with something that would impact rates on a future policy. You might be better off keeping your whole life policy intact because rates on that new policy. Even a term one, which comes with on average 10x less, will be affected. Again, if you got this policy 15 years ago, well, rates are going to go up just by the factor of just by consequence of your age. So that's important to take into consideration also. So the flip side of the coin would be if you're actually in better health. For instance, it makes me think if you like say you smoked back when you got that policy, you could actually save drastically more money now by getting a new policy. In addition to the fact that you're going to pay 10x less for a term policy over that whole life policy. But also it's not only how long that you've had the policy, right? But it's also how much longer you're going to need that policy moving forward. How much longer that you'll have folks who are dependent on your income. So for instance, let's say your kids are, let's say your youngest kid is 12 years old. Well, that means there might be only like six years where they are solely dependent on your income. At which point you could potentially cancel if you wanted to. Like you could potentially be without life insurance altogether because you don't have anybody who's dependent on that income. If you're your partner, maybe they're not necessarily in a position where they need your income. Yeah. It might be certainly the icing on top. Certainly, life would look a whole lot different where you do not be there, but it may not be necessary. Especially if your savings and your investments are robust, you might say. Yeah, in six years time, based on the amount we're socking aside, often sure, baby. We don't need that policy anymore. Exactly, coming back to the whole dental thing. Which is why we recommend term in the first place because usually you're covering a specific period of time where kids are under the roof or where your spouse is going to need that. And hopefully, hopefully over that 20 or 30 year term policy, you have built financial independence. Be up your nest egg in the meantime. In the meantime. Yes, exactly. And then you don't need the little life insurance anymore because it covered the period of time where you weren't financially independent. And then now you are. The designated period of time. Exactly. And you also, so you mentioned the tax implications as well. So if you surrender the policy, you actually, you only have to pay taxes on anything that you receive that is over what you paid. So the dollar amount of the cash basis, so what it is that you paid into it, you will receive that tax free. No income tax on that amount of money. I think it's also important to mention that like term life, yes, better. But we were mentioning all these little caveats because yeah, it depends on how long you've had the policy. There's a lot of different factors that you plan to have it. Yeah, health stuff and what the actual cost you would be paying for a term life policy. I think it's probably worth getting quotes on term life policies for yourself and your soon to be, you know, in your fiance. To see, okay, well, how much could we actually save? And are we insurable at a decent rate? But I would also say this, there's the devils in the details and there's a nonprofit called the Consumer Federation of America that will review your policy for a reasonable $150 fee. And since this is such a big decision and there are a lot of factors that go into whether or not you opt to keep your digit, it's probably worth getting insight from a pro. So we'll put a link in the show notes to this website, the Consumer Federation of America, the service they offer. Is it just run by this one guy? It's this one guy. Okay, this one guy, whose name is James Hunt, and he has literally been reviewing life insurance policies since I was born in 1984. That's 39 years of experience. And so, and he does it now. Talk about laser focus. Right, right. This guy does one thing and he does it really well. Exactly. So, yeah, he literally says on the website, I've basically seen everything. Nothing you send my way is going to shock me. Well, and before that, he used to be the tax commissioner for Vermont. So he was in the industry before this guy is a pro. He's been doing this specifically for a long time. I honestly, I really like the simplicity of his model, like this business. And he's that he set up public servant, basically, in a lot of ways. Like he's doing this as a way to help people and just cover costs. And so, but I think he probably makes decent money doing it too. Maybe he does okay. I don't know if anybody else doing this. But he'll talk it through with you too. After he runs the numbers, I just think it's one of those things where it's like, well, hey, if you've had this policy for in that borderline 10 to 15 year period, and you're not sure where to go, and I think it's borderline running it through with him and having him crunch the numbers will help provide some peace of mind, knowing that then you're making the right decision on whether to keep it or cancel it. But Robin, hopefully that's helpful. Again, if we could all go about like almost everyone would get term life and not whole life policy. So I'm sorry, I'm sorry that someone even in a decent company led you astray in the beginning because I'm sure yeah, that of course has cost you over the years. But while that's a bummer, you can still make hopefully a smart move here in the here and now. That's right. But Matt, let's get to a couple more questions, including a frugal or cheap. We'll talk about one listener going to the county fair, whether he made a wise decision or not. We'll get to that and more right after this. Hey, it's Joel. And Matt. And if you're like us, you're probably staying up way too late. Asking questions like, how can I hate my taxes less? Or did my recent medical bill really have to cost that much? Well, look, you can go to bed at a normal time because Frekenomics Radio, one of our favorite podcasts, is here to help. Frekenomics Radio has more than 500 episodes worth of answers to your biggest money questions with the help of fascinating guests, including CEOs, artists, and Nobel laureates. Make sure to check out their new series about the economics, the politics, and the ethics of returning the world's art to its makers. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. What's up? This is Chris Rootiger. I am the owner and co-founder of the 615 House. And you're listening to my new podcast, The 615 House podcast, right here on I Heart. As an artist and entrepreneur myself, I feel incredibly lucky that I get to live in a city where there's so much creativity and artistry. And this podcast talks about it. It's a chance to take a deep dive with some of Nashville's hottest artists as we learn their stories and ask them questions about creativity, social media, and just how to balance life in an ever-changing industry. We talk about virality and how building a sustainable career is not as easy as it looks. My favorite part is that we get to learn the secrets and stories that you don't always hear on camera. And I try to keep the questions pretty spicy as these artists sit in the hot seat. Come on in, hang out with us as we talk to some of your favorite artists here on the 615 House podcast. Listen to the 615 House podcast on the I Heart Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get podcasts. Deep in the mountains of Greece, the country's most-wanted man has been on the run for over a decade. He's a bank robber, here a barrage of shots, a kidnapper, bang, bang, bang. But to many Greeks, he's a hero. He'd steal a car from a village and return it with a bag of cash on the seat. Someone even told me he paid for an elderly man's surgery. His name is Vasili Spalio Costas, and we're hunting for the man behind the myth. This modern-day Robin Hood represents the fight against a corrupt system. But it won't be easy. They say, no matter what happens, you'll never find them. I'm Miles Gray. Listen to the Good Thief on the I Heart Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. All right, we are back, and we will get to that frugal or cheap county fair edition. But before that, let's hear from a listener who is going to be getting married soon. Hi there, my name is Cassie, and I am from British Columbia. I'm also getting married soon. So I was wondering what the best way to manage finance is to gather slash blend our money. I've heard that it's one of the most difficult things in marriage. And so what do you guys suggest from your experiences? Like what, credit cards or budgeting? I'll also be in a university during this time. So if you have any extra advice, please let me know. Thank you. Matt, Cassie is north of the border. We have a nice contingent of international listeners. We have a decent number of folks up there in Canada. Yeah, and I know that there's a lot of advice we offer, hopefully, on this show that is applicable to people that... Fans, borders. Live in Australia, live in Canada, live in, you know, wherever. There's a lot of people in Europe as well. But there are certain principles that hold no matter what the actual products, investment accounts that you can invest with it. Even if you don't care about the Roth IRA income contribution limits, whatever. Just give over the last one. Right. Now, I guess we have to talk about loonies. That's what they're called. Yeah. I think they're actually Canadian dollars, but loonies and tunies. That's like the common vernacular. One dollar and two dollar coin, right? Yeah. But I've never, again, I've never been. All right. Question for you. Do you think that combining finances is the most difficult thing in marriage? I think it can be, right? It's like, it's either money. It's how many kids you're going to have. It is, what is your relationship going to look like with your in-laws? Like, those are all the, they're like snares and waiting, right? Like, they could all potentially be topics that lead to the worst arguments or fights that you have. But they don't have to be. And I don't think they're going to be when it comes to Cassie because I love for her that she's being proactive. And I love that Cassie. I feel like you're the type A, I don't know. You remind me of me a little bit because this is something I was worried about before I got married. We were super intentional and made sure that we sat down because we had premarital counseling before we got married. And we talked through some really important lifestyle. We talked about faith stuff. We talked about what you even talked about kids. That's what we didn't talk about at all. Money. And I was just like, wait a minute. I feel like there's a big sort of sector here that just went untouched. Again, it's made because of that. I had to be a little, a little proactive. Amazing that gets a lift out a lot of those combos when it's such an important topic for us all to be discussing. But I agree with you, Matt. I think the fact that Cassie is asking the question that she is being intentional on the front end. She's so ahead of the game already. You're, you're setting yourself up for success because you care. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. You know, and money finances. It's just one of the, like the many areas that you're combining in all of which require a lot of communication. You know, like when you're single, you used to make that decision and you just keep on moving with your day, like how it is you're going to spend money. What is it that you're going to do? But now there's someone else's feelings to take into account, to take into consideration. And that's true whether we're talking about spending and saving or whether we're just talking about going out with your friends on a Friday night. I thought we were going to Netflix and chill together, maybe. And then there's heart feelings. I got some plans. Yeah. So what I'm getting at is regular, healthy communication. Like that's going to be key to all of these discussions, whether you're talking about money, whether you're talking about friendships, whether you're talking about kids and animals, that, all of that. And I think that means humility and asking for forgiveness. I've realized this with my kids too, Matt. The more I'm able to apologize for things that I've done, the ways I've hurt them or ways that I was rude or short or something like that, that I feel like that is building a level of trust in our relationship, even when I've done something that, that hurt them or that wasn't, that was short-sighted. Yeah. And so Cassie sounds like a humble lady. Yeah. She's got this on lock. Both of those are really important in that relationship dynamic, right? That's right. The more you can kind of incorporate those two things, the more firm foundation, foundation you're going to build. And I would say our advice for most folks who get married is to combine finances. That advice is somewhat malleable, right? It might change a little for a duo who's getting married later in life. Let's say you're getting married in your 40s or 50s or whatever, or you've had a previous relationship that failed. I mean, those that can impact our advice here, but studies show that couples who combine finances are happier. And they also tend to build more wealth with that approach. And so it doesn't mean that you can't or shouldn't have some level of autonomy and ability to spend how you want. You should still remain a distinct individual inside of that relationship. And we do want you to create room for that in your budget. It's just important to be able to spend without getting approval for everything. But that doesn't necessarily mean that you should not be combining most things. Because I think it's going to help accentuate your goals and your ability to achieve them. And it's going to put you guys on the same page. It's actually going to force some of those discussions that are necessary to make the progress you're going to want to make with your money. Yeah, so you said goals, like some advice I would have is just to dream together, right? Like come up with shared goals together because I think that common vision is going to ensure that you both feel like that you're on the same team, which is exactly why those couples in that research, we can link to the article as well that talked about that research about happier and wealthier couples who have combined their money. But I think that's why they tend to be better at building wealth. There is serious legit power in two people who are going hard after the same thing. And which also makes me think about prenups, by the way, because there's going to be some folks who tell you to get a prenup. I am personally not a fan. I feel like by someone somebody getting those, there's like a lack of trust that is implicit with that, right? And it almost becomes like a self-fulfilling prophecy when it's just like, oh, I trust you with everything. Except for this, you know, my money, the thing that allows me to do everything else that I'm able to do in life with. Yeah, you're like, hey, there's a distinct chance this doesn't work out. And you are showing some of those seeds. Yes, yeah, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. You're showing those seeds, I think, with the inherent act of creating a prenup. I've heard of a number of plans for your money, which I don't like. And I know that there are plenty of couples who are going to say, oh, I've got a perfectly happy relationship. I would venture to guess that they would be even happier, that they would be even wealthier, that that relationship would last even longer if they didn't have a prenup. Well, there are a lot of couples that where that relationship fell apart in the prenup process, right? Like they go just that one step of trying to hammer on a bunch of those things. And maybe you would just say, well, that revealed kind of the underlying dysfunction to begin with, maybe. But I do think it's like a crash course of better to identify these cracks now, right? Like identify the potential cracks in the foundation now as to whether or not these are things that can be mended or not. I think my advice would be, if you think that a prenup is necessary, then I guess it makes me question why marriage is the ultimate goal then. Because there are other ways to have a long-term committed partnership. But if you're saying, listen, no, no, I'm going to commit to you for the rest of my life. We are going to get married in the eyes of the state. And my church or whatever, then why at the same time would you have to have this backup? Well, I feel like we could potentially go down this path. But it raises the question of marriage in general. And I think that there are a lot of folks who are entering into marriages and relationships like that that aren't taking those seriously enough. I feel like that that's what it's a more, it's a larger indicator of. But I feel like we're getting a little too heavy here. So I'm going to like back out a little bit. You just have to be careful. If you're saying, I'm going to commit to all these things. And then you say, but I'm not committing to combining my finances. I think it just raises some deeper questions. Cassie also mentioned credit cards and budgeting. And so a couple of suggestions on that front. Use credit cards responsibly, of course. But which ones? That's really up to you. I mean, you can choose to optimize cashback or travel rewards. And I don't know if you're interested in traveling for free. That is definitely one route to go. We have content related to that in previous podcast episodes and up on the website. But really, how complex do you want to get? And what are you shooting for? That should inform which credit cards you opt to get for budgeting. That's also personal, right? If you prefer digital, we love YNAB. You need a budget. That rocks. But there are lots of ways to skin that cat too. So Matt does the old school Excel spreadsheet. I mean, really, whatever floats your boat on that front. And whatever allows you really like, I think, whatever aids communication for the two of you. And makes it easy for both to kind of get in on the money things so you can have good conversations. I would prioritize that. Yeah. Which makes me think that Cassie should prioritize simplicity. Because you're saying like, it depends on how complex you want to go with it. That kind of determines maybe what card you get. Cassie, I mean, if I, I'm looking, I'm thinking back to when I first started out. And I think the simpler, the better. Especially if your partner may not be 100% on board all in. Because I'm guessing, like, again, you kind of sound like the type A personality. And I think if you put together this really elaborate complex plan. And even if you have a special fun date night where you may, you know, it's like, oh, we're going to talk about this. And it's going to be great. And you have about a line or craft beer, whatever. Even still, I think your partner could have. There might be a sense of resentment where he's just like, man, I feel like she's trying to control how it is. Like we're going to live her lives or how it is I can spend or when am I going to give my input statements like that. And even on your part, if he doesn't stick with the plan, you might have like a sense of resentment a little bit. Because you're like, man, I work so hard to put together this awesome plan that's going to allow us to achieve our goals. But it's not really panning out. And so I think for now, at least keeping being simple, and then kind of slowly taking some baby steps and upping the level of complexity, especially early on while you're in school, you've got other stuff going on. I feel like what you're pointing to here is that the process matters more than the results. And that's something Emily says a whole lot at my wife, who is studying to become a therapist. And I think she's spot on. It's like how you tackle this together, even the forming of the methodology and how you communicate about it and the tools you use, and how you incorporate each other into that planning process, that matters. And that shows a lot of love and respect if you're able to make sure they feel comfortable with the process too. Not just saying like, all right, I figured it out. Here's what we're doing. And so I'm making that other party feel seen and heard as they're able to kind of come to the table with their own ideas as well. So yeah. Cassie, best of luck. We can't wait to be invited to the wedding. It'll be our first stop in Canada. So on my go. Hey, don't don't invite me unless you're serious. Road trip. Let's do it. Matt will even perform the ceremony. All right, let's get to our last question for this episode. This is a frugular cheap, a fun one from a listener in Indiana. Hey, Matt and Joel. My name is Bobby from Velpreso, Indiana. I have a frugular cheap situation for you. So I took my family to the fair the other day, the county fair. And it was a lot of fun. But a little bit of prep work I was able to save about 40 bucks on lemonade. I'll tell you how. So I had some of those souvenir sandcastle cups from previous years. So before we left, we stopped at Aldi, got some lemonade, got a nice and cold. And I washed those old cups out real good. We went to the fair, had a nice picnic. And then as we're walking around, we're thirsty. I just busted out my Aldi lemonade from the cooler, filled up our sandcastle cups, and we're sip and lemonade and style, except our three jugs cost me about $6 instead of $45. So my question is, is that frugal or is that cheap? Bobby! Love it, buddy. Sip and in style. Okay, what is the sandcastle cup? I don't know. I have to be specifically related to that county fair. So the Indiana County, whatever state fair. I love it. Okay, so this actually, I was getting by the way when I was like hearing his question, getting like Charlotte's webbibes, make me think Wilbur going to the, what is it, the prettiest pig contest, whatever else? That's in show. Yeah. I'm like, oh man, that's such a good book. It's a nice throwback. Okay, so Bobby's situation here. It kind of reminds me, I shared maybe not too long ago about, when we went to six flags, we got a refillable, you had unlimited refills on a single cup. And you know, we're taking all six of us in. I'm like, man, these cups are 25 bucks. So I don't, it reminded me of that because there's a part of me that was like, oh, this feels a little bit cheap. And specifically, like, I guess to Bobby's question here, is I wonder how his family felt, right? Because our kids were young enough that they didn't, I don't think they felt the stigma of us all sharing the same cup. You know, like there's other families walking around and they, each person has their own cup. There's other groups. Each one of them has their own cup. There's our family walking around waiting in line for the rides. We got one cup and we're all like passing it back and forth. But I think they're young enough that they're just like, oh, whatever, we're just, this is just how we're doing it. Yeah. And so I think that's the consideration, Bobby, is your family, family members, were they on board as well as you're busing out the jugs of all the, are they eliminated? Or they're slapping their foreheads and like, oh, damn. Are there people around you giving you the eye and all of a sudden they feel they're just embarrassed at the fact that this is a step that y'all are taking in order to save money because that's way back when we did the original frugal or cheap episode where we talked, spent a whole episode talking about what it means to be frugal, what it means to be cheap. And posing your frugalness on somebody else without necessarily giving them a choice is might be a form of cheapness. Yeah. And in this way, I also might say, hey, listen, even if we don't do this, like, we're not buying a $14 lemonade or whatever it is at the county fair, like that's out of that. That's not our budget. There's always trade-offs, right? And so I welcome that conversation, right? The ability, because if your kids are like, oh, my gosh, I'm so embarrassed, well, that's a learning opportunity. That's an ability for you to, for them to learn the value of money and to even get them on board a little bit and say, hey, we might save a ton of money here, and hey, you're gonna be on the receiving end of this because of this, each one of us is gonna be able to get an extra ice cream snack. Oh, we'll all be able to go do this ride when before we weren't able to. And I think that's the important lesson and moving forward, if they're like, no, I really want to get this year's sandcastle cup and would have changed the colors of the cup. It's tied out this year, dad. And there's our all green. There's something like that. It's like, oh, man, we're the only ones with the green sandcastle cup. There are all these small things that take into account, and I think different folks are gonna make different decisions. But it's all, like you're saying, with the Emily's counseling thing, the process is so important in hearing your kids and your spouse and, I don't know, just, you got to take all that into account as you're trying to make the best decision, not only for your money, but for your family and the culture and everyone around you too. So one of the things that I think could make this land in squarely in the cheap category instead of frugal is if the money that you spend on those laminates and the special sandcastle cups goes to like a community organization or a nonprofit that's doing it. All proceeds go to charity. And then if you're like being super, super cheap with that, then that feels cheap instead of frugal. And it totally makes me think of like Emily and I, we took the kids to this mini pony petting thing, which it was all about a fundraiser for ponies and pastries. An animal rescue organization. Yeah, that's right. And so they were selling pastries there. And there was a whole pie that someone had made from scratch. Look delicious. They were selling it. Nice. And like they had cookies on the table too. There were two or three bucks, but then this pie, I was like, hey, how much for the pie? There was no dollar sign attached to it. And he was like, how do we take like five bucks? And I was like, no way. I'm not paying you five, I'm paying you a lot more than that. Because this is a nonprofit, man. And like I want to help, I came here distinctly to help support it. So you talked them up. Yes. I was like, I'm giving you 25 bucks for this pie. Oh, yes. Because look at you. Who are you? Rich Daddy fat sacks over here. Who are you being cheap towards? Yeah, no. And if it's a nonprofit or community fundraiser, I would say, I'm going to buy those cups with gusto, because I want to support what's going on here. It's a badge of honor that you're paying that much. It's one thing if you're doing it with that in mind. It's a completely different thing if you are just partaking and mindless consumption. And that's I guess the sort of the angle I was coming at it with. If everyone's doing it, and because everyone's doing it, you feel that you have to do it. And it's not even a question that gets raised, whether or not we use our cups from last year. That's what I'm pushing back on. And I think that's the lesson that you can, that you're able to share with your kids. But it makes me think of a y'all went to Disney and y'all came back with some bucket. What's the bucket thing? It's like the popcorn bucket. Popcorn bucket. You pay like 13 bucks, but then you get refills for $2.25 every time. And you guys loaned us the bucket, and we're going to use it when we go down there next month. I think that's frugal, right? I think that's frugal. Totally frugal. So yeah, but you're asking the question, which is good. Just say, hey, who am I, who am I harming? Am I having the right conversations with the right people in order to pull this off? And yeah, hopefully that'll help you think about whether it's frugal or cheap in your case. It's kind of hard not knowing all the details. And again, this is like somewhat silly the frugal or cheap sometimes, right? But it's also, I think it brings to light, something that we're all faced with every day, every week. In our own lives, like am I being cheap or am I being frugal, especially as you're trying to save money, you're trying to cut back so that you can save and invest more. So you can live the life you want. Sometimes you're going to come to a junction point where you've got to figure out am I frugal or am I cheap? And which path am I going to go? And sometimes, yeah, even if it is supporting a community or nonprofit organization, you might say, I'm not there right now. And so I have to just avoid it altogether. But it's clearly a fork in the road that all of us come to on our financial journey at different points. That's right. And either way, Bobby's being frugal by being a patron of Aldi. Like there's no way that you're not going to be able to save boatloads of cash. Literally when we switched over to Aldi like years ago, we were able to slash our grocery budget by 30%. So not alone. Huge win there, Bobby. And if you haven't given Aldi a shot and there happens to be one near you, definitely give it a go. You're missing out. Joel, let's go ahead and get back to the beer that you and I enjoyed during this episode. This is a angel of darkness. This is a beer by Wicked Weed Brewing, what were your thoughts? So this one had red wine vibes in my estimation. Oh, yeah. But it was like a tart red wine with a bunch of fruit in there. So I'm kind of, I'm not, I'm not definitely not into wine. I'll say that. But I am trying out some more Kirkland Signature wines on occasion. Ooh. Like one space. Once a month, a $12 or $13 bottle of Kirkland Signature wine. We've moved beyond the box wine finally as we near our 40s. But this, still craft beer is my favorite. I prefer craft beer. And I love craft beer that has wine-ish kind of qualities. And so this one fits that, fits that note. And it's a good, good sour. Lots of good fruit coming through. Yeah. Barrel aged American sour, AL. With boys and berries, blackberries, raspberries, and cherries as well. I was going to say it almost had like, it had a lot of berry, fruity tartness going on. But it almost had like this leatheryness that I think came from it aging in oak. Do you ever drink cranberry juice? I have. You know, there's like the... It's been a minute. You kind of have like this feeling on your tongue. Like it leaves like a leathery feeling. Yeah. That's what I get with this. I see where it comes from. And it kind of has like this... In the texture of the feeling that it leaves in your mouth and the tartness translates into flavor a little bit. And so even though this is a tart cherry, it makes me think of like dark wood and weathered leather. You know, like it makes me think of like their frontier or like a well-appointed library. Flavors that would accompany that. Like a cigar-smoking room. Yeah. That's where there's like a richness that comes from something like this. You need to be in a dark moody room with mahogany and enjoy this beer. Absolutely. Yeah. So anyway, yeah. That's what I was thinking while we're drinking this one. But yeah, angel of darkness by Wicked Weed. We've had tons of beers by them. All right. That's going to do it for this episode though, bud. Yeah. We'll have show notes and links to some of the things we mentioned up on the website at howtomoney.com. You can always find that there. You can always find our credit card tool. If you're looking for a new credit card tool, looking for the one that's best for you, you can find that up at howtomoney.com. Up in the right-hand corner, click on credit card tool. But Matt, until next time, best friends out. Best friends out. Best friends out. In our 22 years of friendship, Andy, this has to be the most bizarre thing we've ever done. I know. I love it. Our podcast, my vagina said, what is a podcast where we ask our everyday vagina listeners to pull up a seat at the best friends' table as we share our most personal We ask our everyday vagina listeners to pull up a seat at the best friend's table as we share our most personal and humiliating stories and ask questions about women's bodies. We are going to discuss all body things, like what exactly are we supposed to do with our pubes? Oh my gosh, if you could have a heart shaped pube that were bedazzled in pink rubies. I feel right now justified. I'm going to start my own personal movement. 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