Ask HTM - Inflating the 25x Rule, Online Car Refinancing, & Affordable ADUs #727

Hi, I'm Marissa Thalberg, and I'm Stephen Wolf Fadeira. Come join us for our podcast brand new. So what's really new about brand new? Well, Stephen and I are not only long-time C-suite executives, we're friends. Because of that, we've got a lot to say about tech entertainment, advertising, media, and marketing, what we call team. It's real talk from the inside, personal talk too, and it's meant for everyone rising in business or just interested in it. Just look for the brand new podcast wherever you listen. It's a brand new conversation you won't want to miss. Welcome to Office Hours, where we sit down with the chief executives, shaping the world. I'm Mike Stybe, and today my friends, we are sitting down with someone I have admired my entire career. I'm pioneering media and technology who has created brands and companies that have defined my generation, Bob Pittman, CEO of iHeart Media. You know, I think Brian, the best advice is don't listen to anybody else. 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Listen to Ear Witness on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Hadamuni. I'm Joel. I'm Matt, and today we're answering your listener questions. That is right, as Monday, we've got listener questions to get to, including there is one listener, and she's asking about the 25X rule. The 25X, your annual expenses rule, whether or not it's something we still like, and in particular, the impact of inflation on the 25X rule, we'll get to that's a question. The listener is wondering whether or not she should re-fi her car loan with an online company. She's come across a couple of them that we're offering a really competitive rates. We'll get to that. Plus, another listener is wondering if he should finance an ADU, an accessory dwelling unit. He's looking to do some house hacking. By the way, have you noticed the right down the street from us, there's like, they're building an ADU? It's like a little carriage house. Oh yeah. The back of the thing is huge. It's a big one. Initially, it looked like it was just going to be a small garage, but I mean, two stories, certainly one garage door opening, and then it's a house. It's like a 2,500 square foot house that they're building back there. ADU is usually what, like, 5,600 square feet, maybe 700, but this one might be even bigger. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I'm coming. Depending on how much. I think it looks awesome. They've dedicated to garage space, I guess, right? Yeah. Yeah. I guess that's something I've been talking about recently too, because we're in a four-bedroom house, and there's six of us. We know, like, at some point, it's not that we need six bedrooms, but five would be great, you know, for the girls, a couple of the girls will not have to share room, and we're trying to, man, we're starting to wrestle with that, we're trying to figure out. How are you leaning in that little house on the prairie lifestyle, man? It's not, like, as the kids get more stuff, it's a discussion that we're having. That's all awesome. It gets older, more independent, want more of their own space. Do you want their own space? Yeah. They're into different, like, where are they going to practice piano? Like, the ability for them to do some of their own things doesn't, it doesn't always take place in, like, the public spaces, and I don't know. And I saw that literally right before we were sitting down right here to record, I walked past it, and I was like, that thing is nice, just envisioning what we could do if we decided to build something like that. But I got to think that that thing's going to cost whoever's building nothing, like, what do you think? Like, 150? At least. Yeah, yeah. If not 200K, to basically build another house. Anyway, tangent. That's not what we're talking about, we're going to talk about 80Us later in the episode. But real quick, I wanted to share, man, that I just dropped speaking of the all-mix family spending a lot of money. I just dropped 615 bucks in order to repair the van. And maybe think a couple of things. First of all, it made me glad, first of all, that I had the cash on hand to be able to pay for that. The ability to not have to tap into your emergency fund, but to literally draw on the savings bucket where I'm sending us, like, literally we set aside 80 bucks a month to cover this expense because these things come up, right? Not just your oil change or tires whenever that happens, but some of this additional work that's going to be required. It got a valve cover gasket plus an adjustment. Sounds like a car part. Evidently, it just helps the engine to run smoother. And I will say it's much, much quieter, which is nice. But the second thing I wanted to mention, too, is that there might be some folks who find themselves in a similar position and they're like, man, that is so much money. Is it even worth it to go ahead and do that? Maybe instead, I should just go buy a new car. What's a new car payment? Well, it's a lot more than, well, I guess it's not a lot more than 650. I looked it up. It's $725 for a new car. That's the average monthly car payment. That's the average monthly payment. Every single month. And so that is a ton of money. And so resist the urge, I'm just putting this out there, a little PSA. Resist the urge to buy a new car when you're facing, when you're looking down the barrel of some car maintenance issues. Take care of your car, right? Like, go ahead and go in for that maintenance because that is what is going to allow you to continue to drive that old car, like literally not even for just years, but even for decades down the road. Yeah. The new to us minivan that we bought this year after we got rear-ended and the old minivan got totaled. Well, we had two big expenses that happened within the first three, four months of ownership had to get that AC topped off. Yeah. Well, the ACF figured it was like basically the compressor needed to be here at the actual unit. Yeah. So that was like $800 and the alternator crapped out on the way down to Florida. That was another $800 and something dollar fix, or it was like seven, whatever. And so I'm like, man, a lot of folks are saying, whoa, a lot of money, boys, you drop it on your old crappy van. And 100%. It certainly is. It is a lot of money and some of those things, man, do I wish the alternator had lasted longer? Sure. Of course I do. But these are the kind of things that come with owning an older car. And maybe the expenses are harder. I remember actually having a conversation with somebody about this on Twitter. Now X, I guess, about kind of shoes like, well, once I bought a new car, it became easier to budget. And I get that it's easier to budget, but it doesn't mean that you're going to save money. It does not mean it's more affordable because, yeah, it's easier because at the beginning, you don't have any maintenance. Sure. Like 25,000. So really, it's just like, it's whatever the car payment is that I've taken out, that's the monthly expense. And I'm like, I can then slowly start building up that doesn't mean it's more affordable. I like predictability, but rather save money and have these less predictable expenses come up. I've saved more to be ready for them, to be able to handle them. Absolutely. Yeah, I agree. When you see how much car payments are, how much new cars cost, and how much interest rates are on cars as well, which we're actually going to talk about that in just a second with one of the refinancing cars. But like, when you take all the things into consideration, I would say, yeah, keeping that used car alive makes a whole lot of financial sense. Nice. All right, let's go ahead and introduce the beer that you and I are going to enjoy during this episode. I guess it's a fest beer, and this is by Bold Monk Brewery. I guess what are they? They're like a gastropub. Yeah. What do they call them? Emily and I will go there for eight nights sometimes, because not because the beer's awesome. The beer is solid. This is actually one of my favorites. We'll talk about it later. But yeah, pick this beer up while we're there on a recent date night. Figure we should have it on the shop. So we'll get to our thoughts on this one. Yeah. That's the end of the episode. It's a good spot. They had a Flanders Red the last time I went, which is, and I think we've said this maybe a few weeks ago, underrated that style of beer. I wish more breweries were making Flanders Red. Hard to find. I love them. Yeah. All right. Let's get to the first question that we have for this episode. And by the way, if you want to submit a question, we'd love to hear from you. Just go to howdomunny.com slash ask. Basically, you're just recording a voice memo, emailing it over to us. We will hopefully take yours on the next Ask HTML episode, but Matt, this first question is all about saving for retirement and following the right rule of thumb. Hi, Matt and Joel. This is Sarah in New Mexico. I've been listening to how to money for about two years now, and I've learned so much from the two of you. Thank you. My question is about saving for retirement. I've heard you guys and others talk about the 25 times rule, which states that in order to estimate how much money you need to retire, assuming you retire at the normal age in your early to mid 60s, you multiply the annual amount you'll need to live on by 25. I'm wondering whether or not this formula takes inflation into account. So for example, if I expect to need $75,000 a year in retirement in today's currency, do I simply multiply $75,000 by 25? Or do I need to estimate what $75,000 in today's money will be equivalent to by the time I retire in, say, 2050, or 10 years into retirement in 2016? If the latter, do you have any recommended calculators or tools for estimating inflation? Thanks for any insight you can offer on this, and thank you for a terrific podcast. Matt, it almost sounds like we need to get Albert Einstein involved in this. Based on all of the things, there could be a complex financial mathematical formula. You've got to do it like beautiful mind style, write it up on the window. Exactly. Well, first off, let's explain what the 25 times or the 25x rule is. And first of all, it's more like a helpful guidepost as opposed to a scientific formula that Albert Einstein would be able to come up with. And what makes it powerful is simply put, it's simplicity, because it can help you to quickly understand just the ballpark nest egg that you're shooting for, and it specifically relates what you need to save to your expenses instead of your income, which we feel is a more accurate gauge. Some folks are like, okay, well, you need to base how much you have in retirement based on how much you're making, and we don't believe that to be true. In our case, it's not really about what you're making. It's about what it is that it actually costs you to live. You're spending? Yeah, what you're spending. Yeah, exactly. It's a much more accurate gauge of what you need to save. The 25x rule is zeroing in specifically on that, and that's why we think it's so powerful. And basically where it comes from, it comes from this something called the Trinity Study, which calculated safe withdrawal rates over the years. It was basically trying to figure out how much you can take out of your portfolio every year when you're no longer working, and then so you don't run out of money on a 30-year timeline. I think Matt, this was done in the 80s. When you and I, we were probably waddling around in diapers. But this still remains something that people quote, that people look to. And they updated it a few years ago to take into account just recent changes, and it's still holds. Still holds. Yeah. And so they found that a 4% withdrawal rate was incredibly safe, right? And in order to stick to that 4% withdrawal rate, you'll need to save up 25 extra annual expenses, right? It makes sense. And some folks, they're more conservative, or wants to be able to spend more in retirement, and some of those folks aim for something like 33 times their expenses. That's kind of another figure you might see thrown around for people who say, I want to be fat fire or whatever, I want more flexibility, more choice, more options. Well, that is something you might see them, a number you might see them aiming for. It's really just an individual choice though, but the 25x rule is a great rule of thumb. To help you kind of quickly evaluate your investments, see where you stack up and where you're likely to be, once you get closer to that retirement age, that's right. But given its simplicity, which we think is a good thing for what you would want to use this for, right? Just again, just getting you in the ballpark. That being said, because of its simplicity, it also kind of comes up short when we're talking about specific retirement planning, which obviously comes with so many other factors. For instance, the 25x rule does not take social security into account, or if you are planning to retire earlier, beyond that, where you're mapping out the 65 to 95 timeframe. It's not taking into account other income that you might have in retirement, like rental properties. Maybe you are one of the rare breed left where you're actually guaranteed a pension when you retire. And actually, one of the professors, one of the folks who are part of that study, who came up with the 4% withdrawal rate, says that it's actually too conservative. He was saying that most folks could actually take out something more like a 4.8%, and this is in a worst-case scenario, and still be okay. But then, more recently, like Morningstar, which is a great resource that we like to often refer to, they say that actually 3.8%, that's actually the real safe withdrawal rate. Just under 4%. Some people say, ah, no. You can take more. You can take more. Yeah. But yeah, who should we actually trust? These are like those nerdy discussions, right? They would happen on a college campus when you're debating these, these discussions are really, they happen in the nerdy realms of personal finance. On sites like Morningstar, with these pointy-headed professors, who are talking about safe withdrawal rates, and it's like, okay, so it's somewhere in between this 3.8% and 4% range that you can safely withdraw. Well, how much exactly? Well, I mean, that depends on a variety. Like on the ways that these things get run, and it's tough to really zero in on perfection, right? And honestly, like you're not going to be able to achieve perfection either, because who knows what the future holds, who knows what expenses you're going to be incurring, who knows how it is you might even want to change your lifestyle. Who knows how the U.S. economy does over the next 20 or 30 years, like, that's true, does it reflect the last 20 or 30 years, if so, then, you know, like you could probably, we probably are sitting closer to that 4.8% with withdrawal rate, but if it's, yeah, like that maybe the previous 30, maybe, yeah, yeah, maybe 3.8's a little bit better of a place to be in. Right. Yeah, so these are all kind of questions that get tossed in there that don't have easy answers. And so, let's say maybe you'd be paying off your mortgage right before you retire, while your expenses are going to go down, which means your 25x number is lower than it was while you were saving up for retirement and still have that mortgage in your life. And then let's say you actually get a pretty solid social security check, right? And maybe you have a rental property too. Well, you don't necessarily need to accrue 25x or expenses. Those people being conservative, saving up 33x, well, you could be the opposite, right? Because you have other sources of income that will provide a lot of your financial support for a lot of years to come. And plus, like Matt just said, the 4% rule, according to, you know, one of the guys who helped establish it, is conservative, right? And so, you don't want to count your chickens before they hatch, but I would say checking out ssa.gov, the Social Security Administration's website, that has a really good retirement benefit estimator. Matt, I logged in to mine today just to kind of see how much am I likely to get in retirement? And it tells you when you start taking your social security check, what you're likely to get. You're going to share. I think it was like four grand a month is if I retired at the age of 67, and so I'm not mean like right now, if you were to start, can you start with throwing on it at the ripe old age of 38? No, I can't take it now. It's going to be a lot. It's going to be a few decades before I can tap into that. But then the longer you wait to take social security, the more it'll be. So it shows you that too. Well, if you wait till 70, you'll actually get this big of a check. But the law, I'll say it too real quick, what's so great about that is you're actually, so you literally log into your account and it's looking at how much you've actually paid in. This is exactly the simple calculator. It's actually taking into your work history, your earnings, and your work history as to how much. And it says, Hey, here's how much you made last year. Here's how much you paid into the system. And so here's how much you're going to get based on your working lifetime. And so the longer you've been working and the closer you are to retirement, the more you can take those numbers as gospel truth, the more accurate they're going to be, right? So if you've been working for two years or 24, well, there's not enough information to really tell you how much you're going to have in retirement. Mine is somewhat accurate, a lot more accurate than a 22, 24 year old, but someone who's in their late 50s or 60s, it's going to be pretty accurate. Maybe really dialed in. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So that's what's great about that resource. We'll link to that in the show notes. But if you're looking for more general calculators, Vanguard, they've got a solid retirement nest egg calculator that we will link to as well. Actually, Nerdwall, they've got one that includes a monthly distribution amount. And so what you could do then is to subtract the amount that you're likely to receive within social, once you start drawing on social security or other, you have like rental home income stuff like that. Exactly. But then Sarah, you also asked about estimating inflation. And so that's kind of one of the, I guess the wild card here. And even the super nerds over at the Fed, they've been pretty off on that front, right? Like they were pretty light and seeing that inflation wasn't just transitory and that they did, in fact, need to take action, although that was like the word of the year. It seemed like transitory. And it was the word of the year that didn't come to pass. But yeah, I like to play Dill's advocate. Depends on what you mean by transitory, I guess. Exactly. What's the meaning of this? Yeah. It's just a slight disagreement over the definition of that word because in the moment, oh my gosh, it felt like inflation wasn't going away. And we were seeing rates take up closer to 10%, but you zoom out a little bit. It's been, you know, a couple of years and a far cry from 10%, where is it like something like 3% right now? Yeah. We're back in the normal range. Pretty close to it. Yeah. And we're definitely getting closer. But I would say, so first of all, the Trinity study, it does take into account inflation. It takes into account increasing withdrawals on that amount. But also, I wouldn't worry too much about actually trying to forecast inflation because even if the Fed got it wrong, what it came to determining, well, how long is this inflation actually going to stick around? They're pretty clear. And they've been pretty firm with the target rate of inflation at 2%. And so basically, they're taking steps to get us there. And how long that takes? I'm not totally sure. But I mean, there are still a couple of rate hikes planned for later this year. And so from that standpoint, I personally am not worried about inflation, runaway inflation and just all the negative that's going to come with that. It's just that accurately predicting it is a difficult thing to do. You just have to know that you're taking care of in the scenario where you save up 25x. That does account for inflation. And so you don't have to worry about like doing some extra mathematical calculations. Well, what if inflation sticks in the 5-6% range? Do I need to save up even more? No, not necessarily. Like that, that you don't need to be thinking that way. Yeah, I personally am not worried about runaway inflation. Honestly, I would be shocked if, I mean, basically if inflation doesn't come down to closer to 2% by the, I mean, we're going to continue to see these rate hikes. And they may not nail it exactly. I think it'll continue to oscillate because anytime you have a massive shift to the economy, like we saw three years ago where it's like, okay, let's completely turn off the economy. This is literally something that has never been done before. That all has an impact. Yeah. And finding equilibrium. And finding equilibrium after kind of all the mess and all the attempts. Just going to take a second of getting us back on track. Yeah, it takes time. I think one last piece of advice for Sarah would just be to say, you can always pat a little bit extra, right? If that is a concern. But you also might not need to. And I think there's the one year syndrome, one more year syndrome, and I don't want Sarah to fall prey to that being like, well, I need, I need 33X in addition to Social Security, in addition to this other income I have, and I got to wait till I pay it on the mortgage. Then you might find that you've exhausted some of those years, those younger retirement years, where you could have really enjoyed yourself and you kept working because you felt like you needed a hit. A number you didn't need to hit. So, exactly. Striking that balance is always hard to find and it's tough to start drawing down on your portfolio. And it's tough to kind of, you know, at the same time you're drawing down that your portfolio stop making income. But at some point you got to be confident in knowing what the numbers have proved over the decades that the reality still holds. And I think you can feel comfortable knowing that that's the case. Having 25X is still a really good rule of thumb that's going to make sense for most people, totally. Yeah. Plus, you can't count on your health lasting forever, right? Like you said, like being able to take advantage of some of those earlier years of retirement, I think are, it's incredibly underrated in my opinion, but definitely something we want you to consider Sarah. We hope that gets you pointed in the right direction. And Joel, one of the ways that you can invest more for the future is by doing a little thing called house hacking. We'll get to that question about the ADU, the accessory dwelling unit, right after this. This is In Retrospect, a podcast about pop culture from the 80s and 90s that shaped us. I'm very much a product of the pop culture I consumed. Yeah. And I don't think that's a bad thing. I'm Jessica Bennett, a New York Times writer and bestselling author. I'm Susie Benacarum, an award winning TV producer and filmmaker. Every week we'll revisit a moment in cultural history that we just can't stop thinking about. From tabloid headlines to illicit student teacher relationships, and one, very memorable red swimsuit. I found myself in Pamela Anderson's attic, as you do. I put that red swimsuit in a safe because it seemed everybody wanted it. We're digging deep to better understand with these moments taught us about the world and our place in it. I want you to really smell the axe body spray that emanated during this time. It was presented more as kind of like a crime topic, and that's not a love story. Not a love story. It had been branded on the uteruses of every single woman, from sea to shining sea. Listen to In Retrospect on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Hi, I'm Marissa Fallberg, and I'm Stephen Wolfed Ada, and we want to invite you to join us for a new podcast for Ann New. So what's actually new about brand new? While Stephen and I are not only working seasweet executives, we're friends. My friend Marissa is actually one of the most influential chief marketing officers in the world. And hey, Stephen has a story career across finance, tech, and multicultural entertainment. Because that, we've got a lot to say about the world of tech, entertainment, advertising, media, and marketing, what we actually call team. We always adore each other, but don't always agree with each other, and that's part of the fun. It's real talk from the inside, sometimes personal talk too, and it's meant for everyone rising in business, or just interested in it. In each episode, we give our hot takes on hot topics, and always answer what's on your minds too. Just look for the brand new podcast on the iHeart Podcast Network, or wherever you listen. It's a brand new conversation that you won't want to miss. Welcome to Office Hours, where we sit down with the chief executives, shaping the world. I'm Mike Steib, and today my friends, we are sitting down with someone I have admired my entire career. A pioneer in media and technology who has created brands and companies that have defined my generation, Bob Pittman, CEO of iHeart Media. Bob, MTV was a revolution, elevating music videos to the top of our culture. What was the origin of the idea? I done a show in the 1970s called Cowboy Tracks, and we've begun playing around with these video clips, these video versions of songs, and we were doing music news and information. We got a meeting with Steve Ross, who is the CEO of Warner and Jim Robinson, who is the CEO of American Express, and I pitched hard. Let's do a video radio station, and that was the way we got started. Listen to Office Hours with Mike Steib on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. We had virtually no evidence. We had the word of a 15-year-old who told lies, a lot of lies. In 1995, Detective Tony Richardson was trying to figure out who killed a fellow officer, Deputy Bill Hardy. Without solid evidence, the case comes down to who is believed and who is ignored. We did commit to an innocent man, and he's been on death row all these years, and I didn't know it. I'm Beth Shelburn from Lava for Good Podcasts. This is Ear Witness. Listen to Ear Witness on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And to hear episodes with no ads, subscribe to Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. Hi, this is Deanna from Youngstown, Ohio. I'm wondering if you've had any experience or knowledge of refinancing an auto loan with rate genius or auto pay? Both recommended on credit karma. I have a 6.01% rate of interest at this point on my car, and I have an 800-plus credit score. It says that I can be approved for 3.5%, I'd like to know what you think in your experiences with this company. Thanks. All right, Deanna, thank you for that question, and let's go ahead and get to it. You are asking, well, specifically, if either of us have experience when it comes to refinancing an auto loan, specifically with those two companies that you mentioned, and I'm proud to say that neither of us have, not trying to brag here or anything, but we really don't like car loans, and the more often that you can save up and pay cash for your ride as opposed to financing it, the wealthier you're going to be in the long run. That's not just because of the fact that you're not paying any interest to the banks because you paid cash for the car, but it's also due to the fact that there is a behavioral shift that takes place when you pay with cash. When you're financing, I think it can be easy to think, well, how much can I afford to pay a month, but when you're cutting a massive check or you're transferring thousands of dollars over, it's a little more painful, and this is a good pain, Joel. This is like the feeling, the burn after the workout. This is not the, oh, I tweaked my back kind of pain, but like the good sort of feeling today. No, you're right. I think I did something this morning. That good pain is what we want people to feel. There should be some friction which causes you to change course or to think twice as easily. Ask yourself a question. Exactly. Yeah. It should ask yourself, like, how much do I need to pay for a car? Like how little could I get away with paying where this car, this automobile, whatever, will get the job done? So Deanna just some thoughts on our approach to car buying before we talk to your question if it wasn't made clear enough that we're talking about car repairs at the top of the episode. But I will say great job getting out there, seeing what better rates are being offered, just the ability to take a few steps, fill some paperwork and to drastically lower what you're paying every single month on that car loan that you already have. That is. That's awesome. That's fantastic. I mean, I think seeking better terms on debt you've already taken on is smart, right? And this is whether you're refinancing a mortgage, which no one's doing now because rates are ridiculous. They're so high. Or whether it was refinancing student loans, which no one's doing, of course, because rates are so much higher. But if you got a, maybe, let's say your credit score was in the dumps when you took out the car loan, it was in the 600s and so you ended up paying a higher rate and now you've improved the score. Well, now you can shop the market and find a better term, a better rate on that auto loan, or the same thing that with a balanced transfer on a credit card, that can make sense for a whole lot of people who have the discipline at the same time to say, you know what, I'm going to take this 18 month window in order to pay off this credit card debt and the zero percent APR is going to help me pay down the principal really quickly so that I don't have credit card debt anymore. That is a smart way to use better terms on debt. Totally. And a part of the reason that you're able to score such an awesome quote is that you've done a killer job with your finances, Deanna, like an 800 plus credit score, that's a great place to be. So good work there. Sounds like you've really tended to that. If you're logging into credit karma, clearly, like you're, you want to know the details, the finer points of your credit score, that's a great site to kind of check up and see what's going on behind just the score so you can figure out how to improve it. But you're asking about a couple of specific companies, rate, genius, and auto pay. And as far as we can tell, they both seem solid. Like both have been in business for a number of years. So neither of them are some fly-by-night startup right where they're likely going to be gone tomorrow. They've got solid to great reviews on the internet, right? In particular, rate genius is accredited on the Better Business Bureau website, but something to keep in mind, just because they dangle a sweet rate out in front of you when you initially click over. Well, that doesn't necessarily mean it's a rate that's going to end up being officially offered to you once you fill out the application, right? And especially given the rising interest rate environment we're in, you might see a headline number on an advertisement or on credit karma site, and then you get over there and they're like, yeah, I mean, that's for this kind of borrower with this, who fits this particular mold. You meet a couple of the requirements, but actually, you know, your rate's going to look like more, more like 7% because you don't meet these other ones. And so just be aware, you might get frustrated because that might be the case. Yeah, well, and just given the environment, too, that we have seen when it comes to rising interest rates in particular with car loans, like it may not even necessarily be like a bait in a switch, because there's a decent chance that rates have just simply increased since you saw that whatever thing popped up that you saw. But then again, like Joel said, not to mention, like they're always going to advertise the absolutely lowest rate that someone might qualify for and your credit score is great. But yeah, maybe they don't like your debt to income ratio. They don't like how much you're making or maybe they don't like how much other credit card debt you might have. So with that in mind, shopping around is definitely the path that we would recommend. And not just with some of these online companies that make it easy, but doing it in person as well. Hopefully you're already a member at your local credit union. But if not, now is a great time to join in they typically are going to offer lower interest rates than banks because they're nonprofits. And that means that they're literally owned and controlled by their members. They're not seeking to maximize every single dollar. It also means they're not going to pay up the highest rates when it comes to what they're saying. Rewarding on their high yield savings accounts, but they're a fantastic place to go when it comes to some of the different financing products that you might find yourself in need of. Yeah, I think he locks and refinancing a car loan credit unions are great places for both of those things. So yeah, I definitely check that check a couple of credit unions and you can lots of times they post their rates on their website so you can find the closest three, even if you're not a member yet, you can join by putting 20 bucks in an account usually. And then guess what, you have access to even five bucks sometimes. Yeah. And then you have access to all of the products that they offer. And so yeah, credit unions a great place to go for that kind of borrowing. And so yeah, while we don't have personal experience with the specific companies you mentioned, they seem solid. And we love that you're looking to snag yourself a better rate where you're going to be able to reduce the amount you'll end up paying over the total life of that car loan. I guess one other thing that cautioned against Matt would be to dramatically lengthen the length of that car loan, right? So that would caution against. Yeah, yeah. We'd say get a better rate. But man, if you can actually get a better rate and shorten the length of that loan to, maybe you got four years left on it and you can pay it, get it paid off in two and a half, that would be ideal because yeah, the less amount of time overall you have a car payment in your life, the better. That's for sure. But good luck. The end of happy refinancing. Matt, let's get to our next question. This one is about whether or not to pay cash or to take out a loan to build an accessory dwelling unit. Hey guys, Ezro here from Arizona. I have a question regarding construction loans. I have a property that I would like to build a guest house on and I'm wondering if maybe taking on a construction loan would be beneficial in any way. I have the funds to build the guest house without the construction loan and at this point I'm budgeting at about $100,000 to build the guest house. Right now that money is sitting in a high yield savings account that is earning me 4.25% interest rate and yeah, I'm just wondering if maybe holding on to the money would be any better in any way or if taking out the construction loan would be of any benefits. Anywho, love the show and thanks for your thoughts on this. Yeah, Israel happy to provide our thoughts and of course, love the idea of building what you're calling a guest house, what we're going to call an ADU because hopefully you are looking to maximize the ROI of that actual structure. And we've seen a lot of like law changes in a bunch of places around the country to make ADUs easier to build and to dramatically reduce kind of the red tape around like how and where you can build them. So they're becoming more and more popular too. That's right, yeah and plus, so building costs, they've certainly gone up in recent years but they haven't risen quite as much as the cost of financing and purchasing a home, the limited supply of housing that's out there. So what that means is folks who might want to get into the real estate game might find that their best bet is to build an ADU in accessory dwelling unit instead of buying an existing single family or buying an existing duplex that might be out there on the market. Granted, this is general advice and every market, every individual circumstance is different but literally a nice disclaimer there. Yeah, but this is a strategy that folks are doing. Like we've got a friend, like he's a real estate investor. He's also a realtor. But over the past two or three years, this has been his approach. He's specifically looking for properties that are on corners that allow for him to build another an ADU on the back part of that property. And guess what? It's still accessible via the road, which means that people who are renting there aren't disturbing the folks who are in the primary structure. I was either the corner or he's looking at properties that have alley access. So like a lot of the older in town neighborhoods, like you've got blocks, city blocks, and you've got these old alleys that are kind of grandfathered in to where people could claim here in Atlanta, they're like 10, 12 feet wide, that kind of thing. And so each property owner is entitled to half of that. But a lot of the blocks, they've just maintained those alleys and they're there. And so you can use them, especially if again, if you are closer to the end of a block, where you run less of a risk of that thing getting absorbed, maybe by the neighbors, to where your property would be choked off. Yeah, well, yeah. And I was this close, Matt, to doing one of these, our corner lot back in town too. And this was when the price to build these things was a whole lot lower as well, because they got quite a bit. ATL, ADU. That's right. So it was like literally this company who has like three or four designs and you pick one, it's almost like buying a house out of a Sears Robux catalog that he's to have back in the day. And I love kind of their business model where you're not necessarily hiring an architect to make some one of a kind. It's like, do you like one of the three models we have? If not, put it here. Yeah, just build that one. Yes, please, then stick it right here. Yeah, so I mean, I love that model. There's more and more simpler times. Yes, yes. What it makes me think of where you get to, yeah, pick a house out of the cattle. But they were adorable. They were beautiful. They would appeal to a whole lot of people. And they made sense kind of in the neighborhood where we lived. But yeah, you're right. I think there's a whole lot of people who would say, I feel like you're almost doing God's work if you build an ADU right now too. You're increasing the supply. Exactly. Which is going to, there's literally a housing shortage right now. And builders, developers, they're for one reason or the other. They just haven't been willing to take on that risk over the past few years. Builders have been building more, but we're still, we still don't have enough. And by the way, Israel said he said the cash on hand to do this, which is amazing. Like to say, that kind of cash is really incredible. It's quite a feat. And what a killer way to use it, right? To put it into something that is going to increase the value of your property. But it's also going to hopefully allow you to make more and more money over time. And Matt, actually, one thing he didn't really mention was how he was going to use it. He didn't mention it. He said guest house. Yeah, that's yeah. I was like, is he going to use it for friends and family? Or is he actually going to use this as an investment? And so I think if he wasn't planning on running it out like full time to tenants, he might want to consider the both end approach. He's like, that's kind of for friends and family when they're in town. But I don't know, maybe it could also be a short term rental that allows him to make make money when people, he doesn't have friends or family visiting. And so that could help him make his savings back quickly. And just cross it off the calendar. Don't allow bookings when you know that some of your people are going to be in town using it. This, of course, does have like part time job characteristics, right? It makes it, it makes it something that something you have to manage. But you'd be kind of be dipping your toes into the hospitality industry, Israel. But depending on your specific location and what that 80 you can command per night, it might be worth it to you to kind of jump through those soups. Because it could mean dialing up the income dial significantly. Yeah. Takes some of the pressure off of whether or not you should plunk down this much change in order to build this thing. If you know that you've got a time frame that you know in which you'll earn back that money. But while Israel said that he's got the cash on hand, he also mentioned that he's considering taking out a loan instead. So should he keep his cash intact and instead borrow to get that thing built? We'd say probably not. And here's why we don't want you to exhaust all of your cash reserves. But taking out a loan is going to come with some other fees and hassles. In addition to the higher interest rates that you're going to be forced to deal with. And let's say if you know maybe you'd already taken out a loan that was in the 8% range. Let's say well, we tell you to use your savings to pay that thing off because that's pretty dang high. And even though you're saying getting a, you know, he said a four and a quarter I think returned in his high yield savings account. Well, the guaranteed 8% return is going to be even better, right? So avoiding that loan in the first place, we think we think makes the most financial sense to us and obviously it depends on your specifics, right? Like it depends on the rate that you're able to secure. If you've got a, like say you've got a good friend who's a lender and he's able to say, hey, I got this construction loan once you complete the construction. We roll that into the 30, a 30 year mortgage and a locks in a 4%. Oh, oh, that would change. If that was me, I would do that. Yes. Oh, yeah. So it depends on the specifics. Because then you remain liquid, but you're taking out a loan at a really reasonable rate, right? And so there's, and there's even a spread, a positive spread for you to, and an incentive to keep your cash in a high yield savings account, right? Instead of putting it towards paying down the debt, but you're right. I guess we're assuming that this is given a typical construction loan in the current environment, which is probably somewhere close to the 8% rate. What's mortgage rates also being? Yeah, it's in the higher in the range as well. Yeah. So if we're talking about the rates that we like to see. If we're talking about that, then no boy, no. If we're talking about a lower rate somewhere in that 4% to 5% range, the liquidity matters, right? And having access to that cash, keeping it on hand. So you can do other things. I would take out, I would probably take on the debt and be totally fine with it. And I think one way to split the baby, though, if you're, you know, if you want to go old Testament Solomon style, if you're worried, you're going to have to empty your savings to nothing at all because of this. Well, take out a HELOC on your primary residence, right? You could borrow something like 20 or 30K instead of borrowing a much bigger amount. And those HELOCs, they always come with no closing costs, or a lot of them come with no closing costs. And so we just suggest that you have a goal to pay it off quickly, like in 12 to 18 months with income, you know, that you're getting from potentially using that ADU as a short-term rental, or just from income from your job. But that is maybe a better way to do it. Instead of taking on this construction loan that comes with bigger, bigger closing costs and more, more annoyance, more hassle. And you're locked into for a longer period of time. The HELOC could be this like perfect little, hey, I just need a little bit to make sure that I'm not literally taking my savings down to zero. And then I've got a little breathing room. And so that might be kind of the best way forward. Yeah, because I do think a lot of folks, they might hear you say that and they're thinking, oh, HELOC, man, rates on HELOCs are crazy high too. Yes, but what's key is what you said, which is like a plan to really get after it. And when you know that the rates are higher, and this is something that you can eliminate in a year, year and a half, I like the fire that lights under you as opposed to saying, all right, let's roll this into a 30-year, and this is something that you're not paying on for for 30 years. Yeah, long time, 30 years. And so how it is that you mentally approach this really matters in this case is real. But you'll have got another question. Plus a listener win that we're going to get to. We'll get to both of those right after this. This is In Retrospect, a podcast about pop culture from the 80s and 90s that shaped us. I'm very much a product of the pop culture I consumed. Yeah, and I don't think that's a bad thing. I'm Jessica Bennett, a New York Times writer and best-selling author. I'm Susie Betacarum, an award-winning TV producer and filmmaker. Every week, we'll revisit a moment in cultural history that we just can't stop thinking about. From tabloid headlines to illicit student-teacher relationships, and one, very memorable red swimsuits. I found myself in Pamela Anderson's attic as you do. I put that red swimsuit in a safe because it seemed everybody wanted it. We're digging deep to better understand with these moments taught us about the world and our place in it. I want you to really smell the axe body spray that emanated during this time. It was presented more as kind of like a crime topic. Okay, and that's not a long story. It's not a love story. It had been branded on the uteruses of every single woman from sea to shining sea. Listen to In Retrospect on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Hi, I'm Marissa Fallberg. And I'm Stephen Wolf-Badada. And we want to invite you to join us for a new podcast for brand new. So what's actually new about brand new? Well, Stephen and I are not only working seasweet executives, we're friends. My friend Marissa is actually one of the most influential chief marketing officers in the world. And hey, Stephen has a story career across finance, tech, and multicultural entertainment. Because of that, we've got a lot to say about the world of tech, entertainment, advertising, media, and marketing, what we actually call teen. We always adore each other, but don't always agree with each other, and that's part of the fun. It's real talk from the inside, sometimes personal talk too. And it's meant for everyone, rising in business, or just interested in it. In each episode, we give our hot takes on hot topics, and always answer what's on your minds, too. Just look for the brand new podcast on the iHeart Podcast Network, or wherever you listen. It's a brand new conversation that you won't want to miss. Welcome to Office Hours, where we sit down with the chief executives, shaping the world. I'm Mike Steib, and today my friends, we are sitting down with someone I have admired my entire career. A pioneer in media and technology who has created brands and companies that have defined my generation, Bob Pittman, CEO of iHeart Media. Bob MTV was a revolution, elevating music videos to the top of our culture. What was the origin of the iHeart? I done a show in the 1970s called Outlook Tracks, and we'd begun playing around with these video clips, these video versions of songs, and we were doing music news and information. We got a meeting with Steve Ross, who is the CEO of Warner, and Jim Robinson, who is the CEO of American Express, and I pitched hard. Let's do a video radio station, and that was the way we got started. Listen to office hours with Mike Steib, on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Hillary Clinton, back with a new season of my podcast, You and Me Both. On this show, I'll be talking to people I admire about many things, including one of my favorite subjects, Getting Things Done. We'll hear from folks and positions of power, like Democratic House leader Hakeem Jeffries, but also writers and actors, community organizers, really anyone, who shows up every day and keeps doing the work. There's so much out there to distract us, but all of my guests bring tremendous passion and commitment, an ability to block out the noise, and I should probably warn you lots of sports metaphors. You stay calm and focused on releasing the ball, getting it to a receiver, and hopefully getting it into the end zone on behalf of the American people. So join me for this conversation and more, listen to you and me both on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right, Matt, we've got more money content. We got more stuff we got to cover on this episode before we call it quiz, and we're kind of starting something where we pull a question from Facebook occasionally, because, man, there's just interesting stuff in the How To Money Facebook group. If you're not a member of the How To Money Facebook group, there's this website called Facebook.com that you can log on to. Have you heard of it? It's been around for a minute, and you can type How To Money in the search bar you'll find the group there. There's just people helping each other out, and it's just a great place to be if you're looking for helpful money advice. And listener Leslie, she posted this week, she said, which would you do? She posted this question to the Facebook community. She said $6,500 into a Roth in HSA, or a traditional 457B. She's basically saying, listen, if I've got a limited sum of money, which one of these three retirement accounts should I prioritize? And man, I just thought this was interesting that I was like, well, we should bet this one around, because we're kind of pitting three retirement accounts against each other in this scenario. Three great options. Right, three good things. Which one's gonna come out on top in this price fight, right? It's not like one of them is, I'm also thinking about dropping $65 on, I don't know what's something dumb, you could spend money on. Yeah, like, I rarely even like to say, think dumb things that people can spend money on because that might be their craft beer equivalent, I don't want to be a hater. And you also don't want to plant an idea in their head, that's why it wasn't already there, inception wise, and they're like, wait, man. Don't you want to open a hot dog food truck? No, I was thinking corn dog. No, I want a hot tub, is what I want. Maybe I'll eat a hot dog in my hot tub, or things that start with hot. Hot yoga studio, that's true, is that something? That's all I've heard. I've been a business you want to get into. I've heard go yoga. That just doesn't sound sanitary. Might be, might be from a back, but it sounds adorable, right? But this one certainly is not a no-brainer. That's for sure. But I think there's one mat that we can eliminate first and foremost that stands out as not quite as good as the others, and that's the traditional 457B that Leslie mentioned. So those rarely come with a match, plus we're talking about a small tax benefit now while accruing a bigger tax build down the road. So I think, and I don't know if you agree with me, that the 457 would probably be the least favorite of the three options that she presented. So now there's just two left standing. It's almost like, you know, Connor McGregor versus Cabee or something like that. I don't know, not a big MMA guy, but which of these beautiful tax advantage offerings will win the day, Matt, in your opinion, to have a preference. Well, so from purely tax and numbers and loopholes that are available to folks, the HSA is certainly superior when you use it properly, right? And that's of course because of the triple tax advantage status. If this is something that your employer is offering, there's technically a quadruple tax advantage, because you're not paying payroll tax on that. But what that means, though, is that there are also more hoops that you've got to jump through. And then sometimes do the fees that are associated with HSAs that can be higher than what you'd pay opening up a Roth with fidelity. But so much of this comes down to whether you're looking to completely optimize and maximize your tax shield. And if you're happy to take some of those additional steps that an HSA requires, so that's on one hand. If so, then all right, HSA could be a good way to go. But if instead you are preferring simplicity, well, it's hard to beat a Roth IRA, right? Just taking that $6,500 and I'm assuming that was her default because that's why I'm guessing she started with $6,500? I don't know. But shoving that into a Roth, investing within a total stock market or an S&P 500 fund, and they're just calling it a day, right? Like that is hitting the easy button. Plus you get the advantage of with a Roth, the ability to potentially tap that, it's like a backup to your backup. Emergency fund, right? Like those contributions can do with drawing for any reason, tax and penalty free. It's not something we like to talk about often because we don't want you to necessarily have to draw on that. But hey, if you ever find yourself in a tight spot, that money is there. There's forget the hot dog corn dog stand. There's money in the banana stand. There's money in that Roth IRA. But of course with the HSA, you're gonna have to pay more attention to fees. You might even need to move the money to another provider to cut down on those fees. And then also like on top of that, you're gonna need to document all those medical expenses as well. And I'm a pretty organized person, but I don't know, I feel like I just talked myself into choosing the Roth IRA. And because personally, I've never actually been able to take advantage of an HSA. So in my mind, it's almost like this unicorn. It's this far off, fantastical thing that, I mean, I know what exists. Unicorns don't actually exist, though, man. I know, man. Well, and I think it's probably good point is that because you've never had access to one, I never have either. I think I feel slightly biased. I know they're great, but it feels like a fiction book that we read about, right? It's not actually reality. But for a lot of people it is, and actually my brother-in-law called me just yesterday to ask about his HSA and he was telling me, actually, there's a $25 a month fee, but my employer, if I open an HSA, they put 500 bucks in there. So it's definitely worth it despite the fee, but at the same time, it's annoying, right? And it's annoying. Some people don't get the employer match into an HSA or any sort of employer contribution to an HSA. And so that fee is something you have to consider because for some HSA plans, it could be $50 a month. And that's like hard to overcome, right? When that's a pretty big bite. That's a big fee. Big coke. So I guess another option too is to split the money equally between the top two, right? Which would be a reasonable approach. So I'll split in the baby again. Again, I'm just like trying to be solemn and over here with every piece of financial advice we'd dish out. You can always give yourself a goal of maxing out both accounts at some point in the future, but for now, maybe funneled $3,250 into your Roth IRA and another $3,250 into your HSA. And then, you know, still be conscious of the fees. If there are egregious, know that you can transfer funds from that HSA, by the way, to another provider once every 12 months. So that's one of the things I recommend to my brother and like stick the money in there once a year. You can move that money over to lively or fidelity who are the two best low cost HSA providers out there. And that way, you're getting money into the HSA. It's the best tax structure, right? The best way to shield yourself from tax. But at the same time, you're avoiding some of the fees, or at least you're not getting pummeled and punished by the fees for too long. Exactly. And I like to, the benefit that comes with trying both of these out is that you get to do just that. You get to try it out. You don't have to necessarily commit to one or the, it's not like you like once you get the ball rolling within one of those camps. You have to continue doing that forever. Yeah. And so, yeah, the ability to try and both out and be like, oh wow, I really like the ease of use that comes with a Roth IRA. Or, oh, I'm pretty organized. I like to keep lists of expenses anyway. The HSA heard a lot. Yeah, I mean, literally, that's another check within on the side of going with the HSA. So I like the ability for you to try both of these out. If you're like Samuel Jackson, Mr. Glass from, what was it, what was it in my Shyamalan movie? Oh, with Bruce Willis. Yeah, if you're that guy, the HSA, unbroken, one of the first shattered, unshattered, something like that. But one of those four names, such a good movie. But yeah, if you're like that guy and you get hurt all the time, the HSA comes in even more handy. Yeah, I like that, all right. I like it. Oh, it was good. It was like a noir superhero style movie. Yeah, it's getting hurt all the time. Better than the modern Marvel ones, that's true. They went downhill pretty quickly. Yeah, they need to find new content. That's the problem today, right? I mean, you got the Ryderstrike, there's no new content, which means honestly, oh snap, what if that means there's gonna be a content revival, right? Because normally, when you are on a tight, truncated timeline and you're just forced to crank out scripts and episodes and whatever else, it means maybe the quality isn't so good. But by kind of closing, pinching that off and you've got all these writers who are no longer able to write. Maybe that means next year, dude. We're gonna be spending so much money on streaming services because it's gonna be so good. I guess that's the downside to the Ryderstrike, but all right, we've got one more voice memo to get to and this isn't a question. Let's hear a listener money win. Hey, Matt and Joe, it's A, B, and San Antonio. So recently, I went to a movie theater with a family and you know how the movie theaters have this little arcade connected to them. So of course, the kids, they wanna go and play some games before the movie, okay, great, let's do it. We go into the arcade and some of the games were messed up. They weren't working, you know, I'd scan the card, it wouldn't go through. And then I noticed that it is still taking money out of my card. So I brought it to the attention of one of the attendants and he said, oh, well, the best thing you could do is call the number on the side of the machine and talk to a representative. I feel like a lot of people, you know, just kind of blow this off and say, yeah, it's fine. I'm not gonna do all that. So I didn't, I went ahead and called the number and you know, talk to a representative, told them about which machines I was having a problem with and it wasn't even my money back. And they went ahead and said, okay, they're gonna send the technician, check out the machines. And if they find that the machines were faulty, they would reimburse me. So they have my address, got all my information and today I went to the mail, opened up a letter with the six bucks in it. So I mean, it's six bucks, it's six bucks. It might be frugal, might be cheap, but I mean, I think it's a win overall. I'm sure when A.V. gave them his address, he was like, yeah, this isn't gonna go in here. You're not actually gonna refund me any money, but that turns out they did. Yeah, I love that. I love the story. And I think there's something that we can probably all learn from, just something kind of random little thing that A.B. sends our way like this. And in my mind, that is that every dollar matters, right? And A.B. is treating these dollars like every dollar matters. It's really easy to say it's six bucks, right? Like, okay, the bigger thing to handle here, the more annoying thing is probably like my kids' disappointment that the machine is broken. But A.B. went through the trouble, made the phone call. And I think Matt, it just when you treat your dollars, like they all matter, like they all serve a purpose, whether it's fueling your financial independence, or whether it's buying stuff that you care more about, then your mindset shifts towards your money. You start to think about your finances differently. But if you start to say, oh, five bucks here, five bucks there, it doesn't, who cares, it doesn't really matter. You are inevitably gonna be the person who wakes up and isn't as far along when it comes to building towards financial independence as somebody like A.B. is gonna be. So I totally were saying, but I guess I'm gonna have to, like, is that a certain point you think, like you have to calculate like what your time is worth? And I'll be honest, I'm not sure if I would have actually made the call to be like, oh, like let's see how much money I actually ended up losing to these stupid broken machines. So in my mind, like it's kind of less about the money and maybe more about the fact that you could take the lesson in this win, basically, the A.B. has experienced, and then roll that into other areas of life. Like, there's a sense of- This Xbox isn't gonna change his life. Yeah, but the fact that he treats his money with care will. Yes, and the empowerment, I think that that can provide, can lead to even bigger wins down the road, which in my mind, like that's why sometimes I do things that where it seems like a waste of time or people are just like, why would you do that, man? Like you're only saving like literally sense on the dollar here or in A.B.'s case, like six bucks. And by the way, literally, he sent us a picture when he sent this voicemail over as well, and it was literally a $5 bill and a $1 bill. That they just mailed to him. I didn't realize that companies mailed cash in the mail. Yeah, like mail cash. But I guess they figured it was such a small amount that maybe it didn't really matter as much if it ended up in someone else's hands. But I really like that he got like a taste of the glory of winning and the empowerment that you get from that to then say, I'm in control of my life. Like there is more that I am in control of, like I can take life by the horns. There aren't businesses out there that are gonna treat me poorly. I'm gonna make them a tone. I don't know, I'm getting too religious or whatever. But the ability to stand up for yourself and say, hey, are you gonna make this right? This isn't something that I feel like, this isn't how you should have handled this. Or this is a product that broke, or even just dealing with, like if you're negotiating with somebody too, the ability to draw a line in the sand that could lead to, like if you're looking for a promotion, the ability to advocate for yourself is, that's what I love about this. And I hope that not only AB is able to take this to, and apply it to other areas in life too, but also just all of our listeners, but specifically when you experience a small win like this yourself, it does something to you. You feel good about it and you think, all right, I'm optimizing. Okay, it's time to be more efficient. I'm gonna stop wasting money. And like you said, you're starting other opportunities. Yes, for all of a sudden, it's a paradigm shift. And you start seeing any interaction where you're in this current of life, of culture, but no, you can, you have the ability to like transcend that. And you can almost set, not make your own rules, but almost do what you want to assert now, Backstake House. Just like older and abominant union. Well, it makes me think of recently, I went to a baseball game with one of my best friends, and we parked over a mile away and we walked. And it's not because I don't have $15 to spare on parking, but it's because I don't like my money going to a parking lot. Plus, we had this lovely stroll. So, I don't know, there's a good thing. Yeah, there's all of these ways in which we can test our preconceived notions. We can test the assumption, oh, well, if I'm gonna go to the game, I have to pay 20 bucks to park, right? No, you don't. A lot of people just assume that that comes with the cost of admission, but it doesn't. And you have the choice to do something different with your life and with your money. You have options. Yeah, I mean, that was a big thing. Way too much into this. But that was, I was like, oh man, there's a lot to take away from A.B.s win here. Absolutely, yeah. And so hopefully folks are hearing this and they're thinking, all right, there's this little thing that it's been in the back of my mind. I would actually do something about it. And the ability to parlay that win into bigger wins in my mind is sort of my big takeaway. The ability to really set yourself up in some areas, like some of the big blocks, like some of the big things, whether it's a salary or housing or cars, right? Like some of the big wins that could really, truly have a massive impact as you're talking about years of not spending that money compounding in the stock market. Yeah, about A.B. We appreciate you, man. Thank you for sharing your win with us. And by the way, again, you don't even necessarily have to have a question for us. But we love talking about anything that listeners are doing with their money pretty much. It just gives us a way to connect with folks and talk about money, which is what we love to do. While we are enjoying beers and Joel, you and I are enjoying a Fest beer. This is an October Fest by Bold Monk. What were your thoughts? You already said that is one of your favorite styles by them. Yeah, it is, actually. Well, they had, actually when we were there last time, they had a really good barrel age stays on, that it was nice and funky. And I really enjoyed that. Did you pick one of those up? They didn't have a bottle or can, sadly, or I would have brought that. But so you should fill up your water bottle and thought about it. I thought about it. I just went back behind there, put my mouth under any other style. Pulled back on the handle. It was awesome. No, so this one was like bronze in color. It was multi and a little sweet. And I really do like a good October Fest. And I don't know if you know this. October Fest starts in September, which feels like false advertising. But I'm going to let it slide. But it's already going, it's starting in a few days or a- I think no, it started like a couple weeks ago. It started halfway through September. And it goes through, I think, the beginning of October. One of these days we'll make it out there. You know, okay. It's hanging out with all of our German HTM listeners too. It's funny that you mentioned that because we recently upset we talked with Lacey Langford. And that's when we enjoyed the KTN, which was phenomenal. And it got me thinking about some of the different European beers. That's where I want to go. I don't, like I might want to swing through the October Fest thing for like a day. Sure. Like it goes on for weeks and people, it's all about just large volumes and quantity. Whereas I'm like, I would rather drink like a quarter of the amount of beer I would drink at like over in Munich. Enjoy a fraction of that over in Belgium. And go going over to three Fontaine and KTN. I'm partial those beers. I'm partial to the Belgian style. Yeah. Like it'd be a fun party. But man, I want to, yeah. I would much rather head up KTN. And if you're in Atlanta, by the way, and you like Belgian style beers, that's what Bold Monk kind of does. And their food, their brew pub, the atmosphere there, it's a good spot. Excellent. Yeah. Especially if it's nice weather and you're eating outside and they're a little beer garden. It's so lovely. It's a great spot. The upper floors. Yeah. Yeah. So, man, that's going to do it forward. This episode will post show notes up on the website at howtomoddy.com with links to some of the things we reference, including some of those retirement calculators that we discussed in the 25x question. All right. That's going to be it for this one. Buddy, until next time. Best friends out. Best friends out. Hi. I'm Marissa Fallberg. And I'm Stephen Wolf Fadeda. Come join us for our podcast, Brand New. So what's really new about Brand New? Well, Stephen and I are not only long time C-suite executives, we're friends. Because of that, we've got a lot to say about tech entertainment. Advertising media and marketing. What we call teen. It's real talk from the inside. Personal talk too. And it's meant for everyone rising in business or just interested in it. Let's look for the brand new podcast wherever you listen. It's a brand new conversation. You won't want to miss. Welcome to office hours, where we sit down with the chief executives, shaping the world. I'm Mike Stuybe. And today, my friends, we are sitting down with someone I have admired my entire career. Pioneer and media and technology who has created brands and companies that have defined my generation, Bob Pittman, CEO of iHeart Media. You know, I think probably the best advice is, don't listen to anybody else. Listen to office hours with Mike Stuybe, on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Everyone in our country has a voice. It's something that says not just where you come from, but who you are. Welcome to MPR's Black Stories, Black Truths, a collection of podcasts and a celebration of the host and journalism who've always spoken truth to power. Our voices are as varied, nuanced, and dynamic as the Black experience. And stories should never be about us without us. Find NPR Black Stories, Black Truths on the iHeart Radio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Hillary Clinton back with a new season of my podcast, UN Me Both. On this show, I'll be talking to people I admire about one of my favorite subjects, getting things done. We'll hear from folks in positions of power like Democratic leader, have deemed Jeffries, but also writers and actors and really anyone who keeps doing the work. So please join me. Listen to UN Me Both on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.