Ask HTM - Side Hustle Seed Money, A Luxury Sports Car Splurge, & Early Access To Retirement Funds #715

Sonora and Ihark's My Cultura Podcast Network, present Princess of South Beach, Season 2. Did you miss me? The new season of lies, scandals and skeletons in the closet. I am proud to take office as your first openly gay mayor. This season it's all out in the open. Listen to Princess of South Beach and on the Ihark Radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up? This IST was something I know you're going to want to hear. In my new podcast, IST's Daily Game, I'll be dropping some daily wisdom and personal insight that I believe is essential to achieving success in business, love, life, hustling, whatever. I'll be coming to you every single weekday with a fresh new quote that speaks directly to me and I hope to you as well. In five minutes or less, I'll break down why these words matter and reveal personal stories and experiences that show them in action in my life. My goal is to inspire all of you out there to achieve success and happiness, whatever that means to you. So start every weekday morning with me and get inspired. Listen to IST's Daily Game every weekday on the Ihark Radio app, on Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts and start your morning with me. On how rude Tanner Redos, the Full House rewatch podcast, join characters Stephanie Tanner and Kimmy Ghibler, also known as actresses Jody Sweeten and Andrea Barber as they relive every episode of your favorite Friday night comfort show. We spent our entire childhoods on a little show called Full House, playing frenemies but becoming besties whenever the cameras weren't rolling. And now 35 years later, the biggest adventure yet. Listen to how rude Tanner Redos on the Ihark Radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to How to Money, I'm Joel and I am Matt. And today we're answering your listener questions. Yes, sir, it is a Monday. And you know, that means we are answering your listener questions. We've got five great ones to get to today. We do it every Monday now, by the way. It's our thing. You know, we were thinking about, okay, maybe we'll make the listener questions be the Wednesday episode. No, no, no. For whatever reason, the Ask How to Money Monday episode is just like, it's ingrained into my brain. And that's what we're doing today. Yeah. We, a listener he's asking about how he can go about ramping up a side hustle. Another listener, he's figuring out what to do. Specifically, when your craft beer equivalent are luxury sports cars. That we've got more of a nerdy question, an early retirement question. How to access some Roth 401k funds early. We'll get to those three plus a couple others during our episode today. Yeah, a nice variety here. Kind of like what's in our beer. We'll give that in a second. But really Matt, my uncle, he and my aunt, they take a trip together once or twice a year. Well, my uncle, he's kind of the cheerleader type. He's always rooting me on, which is just super sweet. It's nice to have an uncle like that, right? And so he and my aunt, they're making trips. They always go to historical sites across the country. They want to see like the house where old school president grew up or something like that. And so whatever, all that kind of stuff. And so my uncle is sending me pictures from all over the United States. But what is he put in front of those historical landmarks? They had a money sock. And he's sending me pictures with our sock in front of like the little white house and stuff like that. He doesn't have them on. He's just holding it in the frame. He's just holding in the frame. Like a single dirtiest like Dobby from Harry Potter. I think it's clean. I think it's clean. It's a singular sock. But how adorable is that? It's sweet. It's pretty cute. It just shows you how proud he is. And how you want to like send me a bunch of those. I will post them. I will. They're super cute. But on that note, I was thinking, wow, we've still got some super sweet how the money sock's sitting around. That we have not given away to listeners. It's true. It's time to give away some more of those because one, they're comfy. Two, they're adorable. You're going to love them if you like this show. And so look good. And they feel good. That's right. You can already win some if you subscribe to our newsletter and share our new winners. Now you can earn some. Or earn some, yes. But now we're offering the opportunity, I guess, for folks to win some. Right now the bar is very low. All you got to do is submit a review for our podcast whether it's on Spotify, Apple Podcast, wherever you listen, and send us an email showing that you've left one. And even if you left one in the past, just send us an email with a screenshot of that review and we'll include you in this giveaway. Yeah. Okay. I know why you do this because our recent review gave us like three stars because they're ripping on me for talking about the 5% student loan payment. Which I, I will say, they did. They took you to task on that. But I took you to task in the moment because I thought that was a ridiculous thing to say that 5% of... That's not... That's not your discretion of your budget. Hey, I'll double down. Okay. You know what? Don't double, please don't. I think the reason I... That's out of touch. Okay, no, when you are, when you are an entrepreneur and I literally have been self-employed my entire life, like there have been years where we've gone from, where our income has decreased by literally 40 to 50% going from earning 90k down to 40k. And we're like, ooh, it's going to be a little bit tighter this year. I think with that in mind, I'm like, I'll 5% that doesn't seem that big of a deal. Sure. I understand it certainly impacts folks, but at least it's better than 10, which it certainly is, but I'm not. I certainly don't. Discount the folks out there who are feeling that crunch more significantly. I totally get that. I think that's probably how. But that's why you want to give some socks away. Well, we've got to make up for your indiscretions and hopefully get reviews from people who love us and don't let against you. I still appreciate that they at least gave us three stars because it's not like they went from loving the show to hating it. They're just kind of annoyed at maybe some of the stuff we said recently. And so that's fair. If you want to help us, those reviews really do matter. They help other people who are interested in potentially listening to the show know what they're getting into. And so if you liked it, we'd love it if you would leave a review. Leave us a solid one over there. Yeah, especially if you've been listening for a while, haven't yet. And you will be entered to win away one of five pairs of socks we're giving away. We will make that happen by, let's say Wednesday, by midnight. Wednesday midnight. And we will announce on the Friday flight the five winners of the, how do many socks go down? All right. We have looking socks. We hope you win. May the odds be ever in your favor. But the beer that we're having on today's episode is called Dream. It is a strawberry, cherry, cotton candy, jelly bean, sour. We'll give our thoughts on this kitchen sink of a beer at the end of the episode. Like a beer that was made by a 10-year-old or like an oompa-lupa in a candy store. Right. What's it called? Is it Dream? It's like J. Yeah, with a J. Yeah. Dream. What do you think of a, like, Korean ab bilge bar? Flight of the Concords. Oh, okay. Was it Jerome? Yeah. Jerome. Boy, haven't thought about that one in a while. Me neither. All right. Well, let's get to... Oh, no, no, it's business time. Let's get to it. Let's get to it. Answer your list of questions. We do it every Monday. And if you have a question for us, we would love. We would love to hear it and tackle it on an upcoming Askhtm episode. All you got to do is record a voice memo and send it our way. If you want the specific instructions, just go to howdemoney.com. Slash, ask. Let's get to the first question, though, Matt. From a listener who wants to ramp up a side hustle, turn it into a legit business. Hey, Matt and Joel, Justin from Northeastern Oklahoma here. Really want to start my own wordworking business and transition to working for a full time over the next few years while I continue to work my job at the post office. Long enough to be able to make a smooth transition from one profit will get to the other. My current shop situation is not ideal to say the least. I'm working out of my uninsulated and unconditioned garage and find it is mentally and physically straining to get out there to work in the frigid cold or blazing humid heat we tend to get here. I have about $27,000 in my TSP and I could draw onto either retrofit my garage to a nice small shop or build a larger, separate shop altogether, which would be ideal so my life could have a garage back. You think it's a good idea to drop on retirement savings to invest in starting up a personal small business. Other financing methods I've considered are cash out refinancing, HELOC, the old bootstrap method which I've been using or potentially crowdfunding. Any thoughts or recommendations? Obviously building the shop would be more expensive than a retrofit and I'd like your thoughts on that as well. Thank you for your time and your response and I love the podcast. Joel, what do you think Nick Offerman would say to Justin about getting out there in the hot or the cold? I mean, I think he'd say grin and bear it. That's right. He pull out his inner Ron Swanson. I can't not think of Nick Offerman or Ron Swanson. Yeah, I love that you commend him. Because that's how everyone thinks of him now. He's done other great stuff too, beyond just Ron Swanson and Parker. He will always be known though, yeah, playing that role. But he was great in that one episode of The Last of Us. I mean, he's done a lot of good stuff. Oh, that's right. Yeah, fantastic. Well, and I gotta say, Justin's called from Oklahoma. We actually have two listeners from Oklahoma on this episode and it makes me think of one of my favorite artists that I've been listening to a whole lot lately. Zach Bryan from Oklahoma. Dude. Is that him? Okay. Yeah, I'll give him music right here. I'm not afraid. If you like kind of... Zach Bryan kind of sounds like country. It's like indie country, for sure. Oh, is it? So yeah, if you like that cold, I like the... I don't like the radio country. But if you like indie sort of country, then Zach Bryan's for you. You don't like it to be too polished. Right, exactly. Or I don't want to sing about pontoon boats. Like, that's just how I do it. But pontoon boats and boots and... Right, and the dog that... And where you put it? Yeah, that kind of stuff. I don't care about that stuff. Justin, we are rooting for you, man. I mean, I think it's important to mention, first off, there's a difference between sidegags and starting your own business. That difference is stark. A side hustle can help you snag cash and return for your time. Think of this as driving for uber. Something like that. Probably the most significant, well-known side hustle out there. Right. Typically, we'll be holding to a specific platform who could, on a whim, change the rules of the game. Yeah. Starting this business that you're looking to start right now, it might not be immediately lucrative. Whereas with uber, you can turn on the spigot right away. You might not make it ton. But you can start making money right now. The truth is, though, that you're far more likely to be able to turn this effort, the one to start this business, instead of going with a side hustle, into a recurring and sustainable income. And some gigs make sense sometimes, but building a business is a better long-term proposition. That's what we want to encourage people to go in that direction. And it sounds like you're taking the right approach. Yeah. We actually dedicated an entire episode to this very topic, the difference between sidegags, side hustles, and what would eventually be able to become a business, something that you're able to run yourself, will make sure to link to that one in the show notes. Well, that's really the difference between gig, a gig and a side hustle. I think a side hustle is something that you're looking to turn into a full-fledged business. Exactly. And it might take a while, and you might not be making any money for a minute while you're doing it. Whereas the different gig apps, those are the end in and of themselves. Yeah. And they're not a great end. That's for most people. Yeah. So, Justin, let's talk about building out that shot. Let's talk about how you can go about it. We are all about investing in yourself in this future business, which can pay some massive dividends, right? Often bigger ones than just simply investing in the market, focusing on your own personal development. This can just lead to higher earnings. It can lead to better career prospects. But do you need this tricked-out shot, in order to get the side hustle off the ground? Do you have to have exhibit being proud of your shot in order for it to be enough for you to do what you need to do in it? And that on top of that, should you tap your retirement savings, specifically your TSP in order to pull this off, we would definitely say no to the latter, tapping retirement funds. It's rarely a good idea, because you're going to be paying tax on the amount that you're going to be withdrawing at your income level, at your income bracket, plus a 10% penalty, which is an art pin in two-stiff of a punishment for you to take. And by the way, TSP's are thrift savings plans, which are essentially government 401ks. Yeah. They've got the same withdrawal rules and limitations and whatnot. They're just 401ks for government workers and with them being working for the post office, that's how he has that TSP. Because of course, it can't be simple. We can't just have like one plan all the way across. We have to have a bunch of different alphabet soups worth of plans. That's just how we roll in this country. Hey, I like thrift, it's got the word thrift in it, which makes me happy. Yeah. Well, by the way, I like thrift savings plan better than 401k. Do you think most of our listeners got that exhibit reference? Do you think they watched my ride back in the day? I'm going to guess 50-50. That was a cultural phenomenon back in the day. But if you didn't... And back here in the trunk, I got a fish tank. It was pretty great. Yeah, it was awesome. All right. Well, here's the thing. Plus, on top of that, you don't have those dollars working for your future. If you opt to take that money out, talking about your actual retirement dollars. Yeah, build out that place for you to work, build out the workshop. You're not only paying tax and penalty. You're also saying, hey, all these $27,000 that I've essentially pigeonholed for my future that's going to build and grow. Well, it's no longer doing that. So it's a double whammy. It's... You really be starting from scratch then when it came to retirement savings, which is not a place we want you to find yourself. It's a better idea to reduce your contributions moving forward so you can build up a shop renovation and nest egg more quickly. Instead of taking the money out, just put less money in and do that bootstrap method you were kind of talking about. We'll try to help you think outside of the box, too. Could you maybe continue using that garage if you put insulation in it? And used a portable HVAC? I mean, I think both of those things combined would cost you something like a thousand bucks. Plus, there's a federal tax credit for putting in that insulation. It makes me think about it. We just kind of did some things to our sunroom. We insulated it. It was just like room where you couldn't hang out in the summer in the winter. And now you can. And so just a 30% off that job, right? That's right. Insulation in the mini-split, which comes with federal tax rebates. And it was pretty inexpensive overall. And it made that room far more livable. And so it doesn't necessarily solve the problem of your wife wanting her garage back. That's not perfect. But it did not solve that problem. No, no. I don't know that we can solve it all. But it gives you a more comfortable place to work at least while you're trying to see if it's going to make sense to go in this direction full-time or not. That's right. Yeah. So don't dig into your retirement dollars in regards to financing. You also mentioned cash out refinances there on your home. It kind of depends on your current rate. But probably not. This is probably not an option that we would recommend as well because you're likely giving up an incredible fixed rate in order to do that cash out refinance and closing costs. Yeah. A HELOC. That's a maybe if you've got a plan to pay it back quickly. But then again, you mentioned bootstrapping there at the end. And that is honestly I think going to be the best way to go about this. Especially let's say the small business venture doesn't quite take off like you thought it would. And obviously, hopefully that's not the case. Again, we're rooting for you. We want this to work. But we don't want you to be left in the lurch basically at the end of the day. We don't want you to not only have no savings, no money invested for your future with the workshop, a nice workshop that isn't producing the revenue that you hope for. You know, you really want to achieve like a proof of concept before pouring even more money into creating a nicer space, which it sounds like you might be able to do because it sounds like this is something you're already pursuing. But I think finding a way for you to gradually ramp up this side hustle into like a legitimate business that is the best way forward. You actually think that when we were starting the podcast and we were nobody, we had no listeners for the first few episodes. And there was, there's a big hill to climb. But what if we had said, let's build a sweet podcast studio hoping that we're going to be successful in this business. Well, we needed some sort of proof of concept, some sort of like listership revenue in order to justify sinking more money into the business. And so we needed as a bare minimum, recording at your dining room table to get off the ground. And really occasionally your dining room table. Yeah, but beyond that, we tried to keep it you know, keep it cheap. Yeah, I mean, we literally borrowed gear. The cheapest, what is it? The Sure S 58? It's the ubiquitous universal mic that you see everywhere. We didn't like, what are the, like we've, I don't even know what these are. The SM7B. So now these are like 400. These are nice mics. But we didn't even get these until like two years ago. Something like that. We did not and we just continue to use our old microphones. Obviously, these are nicer. And they certainly benefit the podcast. But that was after we had been, you know, certainly showing that, okay, this is something that's actually earning money. It's not necessarily just a hobby. And let me just mention this one last thing. Justin mentioned crowdfunding. He said that what if I like take to the streets or take to the internet, take the Facebook and see if other people want to help fund my venture. I'd say one of the best ways to get the funds to do the build out would be to pre-sell some items that you're playing on making. Could you get the word out and start taking orders now? Instead of thinking you have like furnished the showroom before you start making sales, think about it the other way. You can say, hey, listen, I'm making all this cool stuff. Here are a couple examples of what it's going to look like. Can I make you a custom bench for your front porch or swing for your front porch? Whatever it is that you're making. And show people a proof of concept. And then take orders, get those orders pre-funded. Essentially have people pay in advance. And that hopefully helps you go down the path without begging for money which I think some crowdfunding kind of like that. Like, can you help me do this? Even though I'm not giving you anything in return. That's how some of the crowdfunding things feel to me. Sure. So I was talking about ensuring that this just doesn't become a hobby. There's nothing wrong with hobbies. Sure. There's nothing wrong with pouring money into hobbies but really, really expensive hobbies that you justify and kind of call a business in your mind. That's what we want you to avoid. And so I think to that. And maybe what this takes is just being slightly more organized with your finances. Again, I'm not saying that you're not. But if you have currently, maybe because he said he goes out in the garage or out there and makes stuff. So maybe he is making some stuff and he's selling some stuff. But maybe what it takes is opening an actual business checking account and keeping those finances separate because then you can start to quantify and show that like, okay, sweet, I'm actually generating revenue as opposed to maybe just absorbing some of those dollars into your general monthly budget. And also absorbing some of those expenses that may be perhaps even more than what you're generating. But I think having that delineated and separated will allow you to, and it's like fuel on the fire to get you producing more, creating an excellent product, getting it out there, marketing it in order for you to know that the light at the end of the tunnel is to have enough on hand. Like Joe said, maybe at first to insulate, get the HVA, like a little portable air conditioning thing out there. But then beyond that, okay, get a fairly comfortable space. Next, let's make, let's get, I don't know, $20,000, $30,000 up. That way we can, I can get a slab poor, a nice big garage, big workshop. I think maybe if you start treating this more like an official business and jumping through some of the hoops that go with getting an EIN, like an employee identification number, just some of the more official things, that might change how it is that you are viewing this side hustle as well. Yeah. I think one episode I would recommend you go back and listen to Justin is episode 247 that we did with Alan Donigan. And that whole episode was about starting a business with $0. And he was really creative. I think in a lot of ways that he approached helping other people start a business. He runs something called, I think business school startup. So, yeah, Alan Rocks and his motto is, fail fast and fail cheap. Which I think is a good one, right? To keep in mind as you're getting this off the ground. Start that business, yes. But find creative ways to keep your retirement intact and keep your debt to a minimum while you're doing so. You'll be glad you did, especially once money starts coming in. That's profit. That's not coming just to pay down the debt you took out. So, I think if you start in a way that is, like you said, bootstrapping. And I think that is the best way to go for your personal finances. And it's going to make you think about how you go about doing this business thing. More intentionally. Yeah, totally. Yeah, so I just thought of another little side thing. There is a, or at least in town. There is a woodworking shop. They're building out furniture for different restaurants and breweries and whatnot. And they would, they have like a burn, like a stamp that they stuck on their tables. And that was a way that anybody and everybody that went to that brewery saw that stamp there on the table. And so maybe that's a way to offer a discount and just like, hey, I'm willing to do this for you. Normally, I would charge this. But if you let me put my business name or my logo or something like that on there, that might be a way for you to start spreading the word a little more quickly. That way you're able to ramp up more quickly. You're able to scale more quickly as well. Oh, one other thought. What about renting someone else's space? Who already does it? Maybe they work Monday through Friday and you say, hey, can I rent your space on Saturdays for this amount of money? I don't know. There's all sorts of ways to skin the cat, maybe, but just going to the most expensive option, which is building a new workshop that's insulated, heated, and cooled, and all that stuff. That's probably a one step too far at this point in the game. That's right. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. All right, we've got more questions to get to, including the luxury sports car question. We'll get to that, plus others right after this. Sonoro and I hearts my Cultura podcast network, present, Princess of South Beach, Season 2. Guess who's back? Did you miss me? The Calderons are back with a new season of lies, scandals, and skeletons in the closet. And speaking of closets... I am proud to take office as your first openly gay mayor. This season, it's all out in the open. What color are your pants? Okay, maybe not. Everything? These people look like they're mixed up in some really dangerous stuff. Starring ex mayo, danipino, antibustillos, Raúles Parasin, ginatores, Alan Eisenberg, and more. Keep up with the most notorious family in Miami, unravel the mystery with this new season of Princess of South Beach. Listen to Princess of South Beach, as part of the Mike Cultura podcast network, available on the iHerd Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, this is Annie. And Samantha. And we are the host of stuff I'm never told to you, an intersectional feminist podcast about anything and everything, from social issues, gender, entertainment, science, fashion, and everything in between. And we're coming out with a book called Stuff I Never Told You, the Feminist Past, Present, and Future. We break down things like the Pantsuit Revolution, the Battle of the Sexes, the Civil Rights Movement, Disability Activism, LGBTQ plus rights, the Jane Collective, and so much more. Including the Feminism, a fictional woman like Princess Leia, and tropes like the Final Girl. Which is one of my very favorite parts. You know I love digging into entertainment and tropes, but we also expanded out on that to talk about the power of representation at large. Yeah, and you know, I love digging into some of the minute things in history that people don't talk about enough that we need to have more conversations on, and hopefully, this will start that. You can order your copy of Stuff I Never Told You, the Feminist Past, Present, and Future, now where books are sold, or get yours at SteffiShadryFooks.com. Drugs, road burn, madness, stones, they become the world's greatest rock and roll band on the 1972 tour. The Rolling Stones were rock royalty, and to America they came to receive their crowns. I Heart Radio's new podcast, Stone's Touring Party, puts you at the epicenter, featuring never before heard archival interviews with the band members themselves. I think it's very different from what the Rolling Stones expect to put it really is. The only way to do it is to be as far as you can be. You'll also hear from those who are along for the ride and live to tell the tale. They were ugly, they were angry, defiant, they've come for your daughters. That engenders fear, and they made more money off it than any band in history. Stone's Touring Party is a journey through a pivotal point in American history, with one British rock band acting as catalyst for riots, drug busts, and some of the greatest gigs ever played. I'm your host, Jordan Runtug. Listen to the Stone's Touring Party on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your favorite shows. All right, Matt, let's keep going. We've got more listener questions to get to. It always warms my heart when we get questions from teenage listeners. We've got another one here. Hi, my name is Amiris. I am 16 years old and living in Ontario, Canada. I listen to your podcasts all the time, and today a question popped into my head while I was listening to the ninth episode. Retirement, investing is simpler than you think. My question is, can I still earn money and possibly have a head start in managing it at even an early age? My worst fear is to be financially struggling, whether that's because I don't have good money management skills or because I don't have enough money for retirement and work till I'm dead. So I was wondering if you could talk about how I could start managing my money as early as possible so I can have experience for when I'm older, and also kind of have a head start with retirement and such. If you have any advice, be as brutal as you want. I am always open to honesty, and you guys are great at that. Have a great week, and thank you for your time. That's two weeks in a row now that we've heard from somebody younger from Canada. Did you do some sort of like Canadian marketing plan that? I did some Facebook targeted ads straight to... I like it. ...anybody who likes hockey and maple syrup. Might be an over-generalization of Marys. I hope you're not offended at Joel. It's Joel who said that by this time. I do cringe honestly thinking about some of those older episodes that are still up and available for listening, but Marys, I am incredibly impressed that not only are you listening to the podcast, you have reached out, and now we're answering your question. We're getting to you, and hopefully we can help you out here. But you just have... It's amazing that you've got this desire that you've got the maturity to achieve some of these goals, some of these financial goals at such a young age. It's just crazy, impressive, and we'll do our best to tell you what we would have told ourselves at your age, because I think I speak for both of us Joel, that we are both pretty dumb. At the age of 16. No, 100 percent. I didn't know anything about anything at that point in time, much less money and investing. Well, some of it I knew, but even still knowing. No, and I didn't. It didn't change how I acted, because I'm like, well, I know what I'm supposed to do, or what I should be interested in, but the fact is, I think Marys is... She has the knowledge, but she's also got the desire, like the willpower to actually see it through. To me, that's more impressive than just having the information. No, it's a potent combo, for sure. Let's talk about what Marys needs to know, so she can get where she wants to go. First, the first encouragement we would give you is to become a lifelong learner. You're already doing this, right? You're listening to personal finance podcasts when most of your friends are probably not, right? I can't imagine that most of your friends are listening to how to money or anything like that. They're probably listening to some comedy podcast, which is great. There's some great comedy podcasts out there. But if you're listening, shout out to all the Marys' friends. Yeah, exactly. Or to any teenagers out there, we love that you're... Again, Matt and I, it's hard for us to imagine that, considering where we were at 16, like we weren't thinking about this stuff. And it's so encouraging to hear younger folks actually listening to this stuff and caring. But everything you're learning is giving you a leg up. And those skills and lessons are going to compound in their effectiveness over time. So the average person, they really don't start asking these questions until age 40. And then it can feel like they're drinking from a fire hose. Our brain loses plasticity, right? As we age, I was just thinking about that the other day. And how... My daughter is like better with technology than I am. And she's 10. And so I think the more regularly you read, you listen, and you talk about these things. The more curiosity you bring to the game right now, the more you're going to thrive. And so that involves continuing to go down this path, continuing to listen, and continuing to implement all along the way. Yeah, I think this is a really important point. It makes me think of something we just briefly mentioned in response to Justin's question about investing in yourself. Because it's certainly tempting to hear about compounding returns, right? And then you start shoveling as much money as possible into different investment accounts. That being said, don't neglect to grow your career prospects. Don't neglect to grow your income at the same time, because that can have like really far reaching impacts, allowing you to suck away more money over time, right? It's not just about the here now, but again, go back to Justin. He's not just working on the gig apps because he's looking to make a buck now. He's looking at a larger time horizon. And we want you to do that as well when it comes to how it is that you're handling your money. Because a high income doesn't always lead to financial success, but increasing your earning potential is a really big part of the equation. Yeah, but it also takes balance as well, because we're focusing on financial success and career success. But some other advice I wish I had maybe had as well, is that I think you might be hearing this, and again, it feels like you're getting the cheat code. You know how money works. And if you go for that with full bore, you might neglect relationships. You might neglect hobbies like we were talking about earlier. And we want you to have life success, not just financial and career success. So don't forget about the things that interest you. Don't forget about your family. Don't forget about your physical and your emotional health, like all the different aspects of life that make it interesting, because at the end of the day, if you're only focused on money, and obviously that's, we're all about focusing on money. That's what we talk about here today and day out. But if that is all that you're thinking about, and you're not broadening that aperture to take in some of the other things that make life awesome, well, at the end of the day, you're not going to have anything else. You're just going to have money, which is helpful, but you need to make sure that you are developing these other aspects of your life as well. Which is the main theme throughout one of my favorite stories, a Christmas Carol, right? Like Ebony's or Scrooge, sure, he's got money, but he don't have money in friends, and his family hates him, and he doesn't care about people who are less fortunate than he is. And so obviously the author, Charles Dickens, is trying to tell us that this is no way to live a life. And so yes, we want you to learn how to make more money, how to invest and save it well. But I think Matt, you're spot on. You don't want to do it to the point where you've given up other things that matter and make us human and make life worth living. But another good idea, we would say is to keep your debt load to a minimum. Because like that's important as well. Yeah, you have to use credit cards, which we're totally fine with. We'll pay them off on time and in full every single month. And then set that payment to auto pay, maybe. So you don't forget. Automating is a really helpful thing to do. And from what we hear, at least college is cheaper in Canada, which is great. But if you opt to pursue a higher education, try to minimize the debt that you take on. Your early 20 self will thank you. It's just a few years down the road. But man, keeping that debt to a minimum on the front end will create less pain, less difficulty for you financially later in life. And that's going to help you to be able to suck away more money in those early working years than your peers who have opted to take on bigger debt burden. So you're in this sure. Prime age to be able to think about, well, how much am I going to take on debt wise for school, for higher education? You might even say, guess what? I've got these other interests, these entrepreneurial bents. And I don't even know if college is for me. Yeah. But it's at least, it's very much worth thinking about. The value proposition, how much you're likely to make based on the degree you're getting, how much joy you're going to get from it, and then also how you can limit the debt to get that degree. Totally. Okay, so you just set a bunch there that maybe think of two additional things, which are, like you're talking about her peers, who might be saddled with college debt. The community that you surround yourself with, I think that's really important as well, because I think your friends can have just an outsized impact on your financial and life trajectory, right? Like, because yeah, if you are with a group of folks who seemingly are doing great in school, and they're all on the path to go to prestigious colleges and whatnot, and that's just what you've always been told, and you're going to apply to all the best schools, and no matter what, if you get accepted, you got to go. No matter the cost, as opposed to maybe folks who are thinking slightly counter-culturally, and they're thinking maybe, like you said, more entrepreneurially. Like, what problems are out in the world? What service or product could I provide and solve this problem in creative manner? That's business, right there. Like, I think a lot of times folks here are business, and they think, oh, you got to go to business school, and you got to learn all of this stuff. No, there are ways to be in business that are as simple as that, where you are just solving a very clear identifiable problem, serving a local population, or willing to pay for. Yeah, absolutely, and along those lines as well, as far as college goes, I think the older I get, and the older my kids get, I just really love the idea of a gap year. And I think for 13 years, by the time someone graduates as a senior, they've never made a decision as to what they're going to do next. Like, what am I going to do next year? Oh, I don't know. Oh, yeah, maybe that's because you didn't have to decide. You just went from sixth grade to seventh grade. Oh, you just went from ninth grade to tenth grade. You're on this track, this education track, and I think a gap year can be so important when it comes to pausing for a second, and thinking, what else does life have to offer? Like, how else are other people making a living? I think that's one of the aspects of travel that's so important and so valuable. Because you can see that, oh man, there are people living all different sorts of ways that don't necessarily involve going to four plus more years of college, in order to make a living. So yeah, I think the gap you're taking, even just getting a job, learning a trade, doing something for a few months can just be such a good departure to hit pause on that education track. And I'm a huge fan of higher education. But I do think there are a lot of college attendees who are there when they haven't necessarily thought about why they're there. That's the gap year. That's what it's perfect for. Helping you figure out whether or not that's the right move for you. And I think you can give you a renewed passion to go back to school. Like, you might have more effort in it too. And that's how Emily has felt to go back to grad school. Took a big gap between college and grad school. And now like, there's a decade plus. There's a difference in the gap decade. Yeah, there's a difference in how she views the classes she's taking. Then the early to mid-20 somethings, just because I bet that time off and that passion has taken time to build. But last thing, this is probably the knee jerk response you hear from most personal finance podcasts. It's like stick money into tax and payments retirement accounts so that you can, you know, you're starting young. There's more time for that money to grow and compound. And it is true. Like, that is an important thing to mention here. But I think I really think all of the other things we've talked about are far more important than that. Because as you become a lifelong learner, as you hopefully increase your income, as you learn to live a life that you want to live, you're going to, you're going to be funneling money in that direction. And so, sure, yes, please do. And be sticking money into those tax and payments retirement accounts. I know in Canada, they're different than they are here in the States. They have a similar alphabet soup of retirement accounts available to them. But the earlier you get started, yes, the better. But I would say as long as you're not neglecting to invest in future you into your own endeavors, maybe that is. Oh, man, I'm not going to put money into a tax advantage retirement account because I'm going to travel on that gap year. That's a good decision. Because you know what? You'll get a job and you'll be able to start investing regularly right when you get that first job. So definitely focus on that. Make sure it's a priority. But also don't let that be the main focus, especially right now. That's right. And you knew that we were going to get to investing based on the fact that you're talking. The episode that you're listening to was investing for retirement is easier than you think. It truly is easier than you think. It's just about getting that ball rolling at an early age. And those those returns are going to compound, which is why we spend so much time talking about all of the other non money things. Right. Which maybe you weren't expecting and didn't want to hear. But we think personally that they could be even more powerful. And it's our show and we can do what we want. It's one of the things that you get to do when you start doing a business. Right. Joel, let's get to our next listener. He has a question regarding his craft beer equivalent. Hey, Matt and Joel. Dave from New Jersey. I'm going to Pennsylvania. Been a listener to the pod for about four years. You guys are great. Keep up the good work. So I'm 26 sales engineer. Just moved in with my girlfriend. Moving to Pennsylvania actually. So lower cross the thing. That's great. Probably going to get engaged by that ring in next six months, less than a year. I have about 80,000 saved. And in cash and 100,000 in retirement. So I'm pretty well set up. And my question is, should I throw my money into the car loan, pay it off, and be financially free for that for a bit? Or should I keep just saving, paying it off, and go from there? The only question I ask is because it's a 2022 out of S4. Certified premium. Car is great. Got very low mileage. And I'm really obsessed with the Lexus size 500. 5-liter V8 rear-wheel drive. Super reliable, super comfortable. And it's kind of a car I would want to keep forever because it's so unique. Hopefully. It's also more of a behavior than it is a financial problem. Because I obviously could afford the car. So my question you guys is, from a financial perspective, should I pay off the car and then personally develop some good habits of looking at my line items, continuing to budget, maybe reduce some expenses, or maybe, you know, pay off the car, or fuel those payments for a couple of months, and then decide if I want to get the car. Thanks for early help. And thanks for making the pod. Hopefully, you guys enjoy this question as cars are definitely anti-finance. But let me know what you think. Thanks guys. Dave, man, good luck on your move. And I think. And on that, hopeful engagement. Yeah. Hope she says yes. Well, okay. So I actually, he was talking about how much cash he has on hand. I was actually thinking, oh no, I thought he was about to ask how much of that 80,000 he should spend on a ring. And I was like, oh, that's too much money. I think it's like the direction he was going with it. I was getting a little nervous. Yeah. I'm trying to remember how much I spent on my ring primarily. I didn't spend that much. Yeah. No, definitely not anywhere close to that. But it's still a nice ring. She loves it. But going anywhere with a lower cost of living, it's always nice. And Matt, we've experienced a little bit of that since moving up to the burps. That is a nice byproduct. You don't necessarily move for lower taxes or lower cost of living. And if you love where you live, but that can be helpful. And there's just a lot going on in this question. It sounds like cars are Matt. You alluded to this. His craft beer equivalent. He likes the expensive ones, which means Dave, you got to be careful. So you don't make some financially unsound moves just because you've got an obsession and an expensive one at that. That's true. Yeah. And so Dave, you first asked about paying off the current car loan. And that partly depends on the interest rate that you have on that car. Sounds like you do have the cash on hand in order to pay that off. But if you have a rate of around, let's say, 4%, but then let's say that your cash is earning you 5% from a number standpoint. There is no need to pay that thing off. It's kind of, it's more of a mental thing, I guess. And if you really want to get rid of it, and you'd still have enough money set aside in your emergency fund after paying it off, you totally can. And at this point, it's just a personal decision that kind of falls into a pretty solid grey area. But it also, it also kind of depends on what you're doing with that money. Because in this case, it sounds like, unfortunately, you're not thinking about maintaining that balance within a high yield savings account where you're out earning what it is that you're paying an interest towards that car. No, you're actually talking about spending it on one depreciating asset. On another depreciating asset, which is the part that makes me... That you love, which is good, but that's what makes me the most uncomfortable. Sure. Okay, so let's talk about transportation costs for a second because Dave mentioned in his question that cars are anti-finance, which isn't far from the truth, right? Yeah. If we're getting down to brass tax, the reality is that this is the area where most people have the biggest ability to change their financial lives to change their future, the typical person, Matt, thinks that buying a new car for $50,000, financing it for seven years, and an interest rate of 9% or something like that, is no big deal. But living like a normal American is a bad idea, and it is a big deal. The whole thrust of the show is to get you to live in a way that is not ordinary, that is hopefully extra ordinary, and that changes your financial stress levels and your ability to achieve financial independence. And so changing just this one thing, how much you spend on cars, is going to have an incredible impact on your ability to save and invest for the future. That's right. For example, because maybe some specific numbers would actually help, the average monthly car payment today is $789. And now, if instead you took that money, you took that $789 a month, and instead you invested it for 40 years, you would have $4.4 million. So we needed a drumroll for that, because that's really hard. 4.4 million. It's hard to fathom. Like that is so much money. It's a ton. Just by focusing on average returns that we've seen over the, within the stock market. So I just wanted to put that out there, because that's a lot of money. And we put it in perspective. Exactly. We want to put things in the right perspective for you, because it's clear that you're not in the boat of the average American. You are crushing it when it comes to your finances. And so we bring this up, because it's helpful to think about the different trade-offs that you're going to be making. If you choose to own two really nice cars, think about some of the other things, too, like secondary costs, like recurring costs. And what other potential goals might you have to push aside, where you to, you know, splurge and get this really extensive craft beer equivalent. So it's the decision only you can make. We're not going to judge you here. Kind of like comes down to what it is that you want to achieve in the next 10 plus years. I think that this makes me think I'm just really glad that I don't like cars, and don't care about them to that extent, because man, it really is an expensive hobby. Certain hobbies are made more expensive than others. And it's okay to have that hobby, but we just want to make sure Dave that you're doing it, doing things in the right order. And so if you can avoid car debt altogether and keep your car costs reasonable as a percentage of your budget, all while saving and investing for your future, planning and paying for that ring and for that wedding, you might be able to afford that other fancy car. But given the fact that you have a car note currently, and you're at a place in time where every dollar matters, we would start saving for that goal, but hold off on the actual purchase for the time being, because, you know, you said that you can obviously afford the car. But that too is in the eye of the beholder, right? You hear the term house for people instinctively know what that is. It's possible to be car poor too. And I think again, you've done a better job saving and investing than most people, but you might kind of fall into that camp. If you had two expensive rides like this, and we don't want that for you, we want you to build up your finances so that you can easily afford that car splurge in the future, where it's like, you know, both of them are pretty and clear. And yet, it's still an expensive endeavor, but it's not nearly as expensive as it would be, if you were getting rid of all your cash, or if you were taking on a boatloader debt or keeping expensive debt around. That's why, okay, yeah, the longer I think about it, the more I think I would encourage him, even if he does have a lower interest rate car loan to go ahead and pay it off, because I think it would just feel different. A, he would have less money in the bank, because, you know, like I think, he said it's an Audi. Audi's are expensive, and so he might have to pay it here. 25,000 just to pay that thing off, and so you're talking about 25,000. Maybe even more, 25,000 less in the bank, that might feel a little different. And on top of that, just again, yeah, you mentioned some of the different life changes that he's got coming up, I think, saving up in advance. You know, I may not have made that decision myself to spend that much money on things, but simultaneously, I kind of did do that, like I think back to my history, my past. I can easily put myself in Dave's shoes, like I was kind of, like I had a cool Jeep Cherokee with a four liter, or was it a five liter? I don't know, it was an inline six. Like my next Jeep, like I, it was a V8, 5.2 liter. Like I still remember these things, because I was in the cars. Like I had a classic Range Rover. I love those things. I didn't have them all at the same time. But today, what do I drive? An 11 year old Honda Mini V8. So I don't know, I guess I want to put that perspective out there, Dave, because I would hate for you to plunk down a whole lot of money on something that you might feel differently about in the future. Because you even said, like, hopefully this is a car that you might keep forever. But man, if there's anything I've learned about myself, at least, is that my tastes change. The things I'm interested in my priorities, they shift over time. And I would just be cautious. That would be advice out that I would give anybody in their 20s. Just be cautious about the things that you're pursuing and how much money that it's going to require of you. Yeah, I'm trying not to let them disrupt your future. Even if it's something you want to pursue, do it within healthy boundaries. Right? Yeah. Okay, tell me about Matt, the engine on the Honda Odyssey 2013. Is it turbocharged? How many liters? I don't know. I literally couldn't tell you. Is it a hemi? I don't know. Anything about the engine in our van. No, except that I know it's a V6. Yeah. And that I get the little change. Because I want that thing running forever, man. That's right. We're at, like, close to 160,000 miles now, I think. Well, okay. We got more questions to get to on this episode, Matt, including one about how accessible Roth funds are for you. If you want to retire early, we'll get to that. And more right after this. This season, it's all out in the open. What color are your pants? Okay. Maybe not. Everything? These people look like they're mixed up in some really dangerous stuff. Starring ex-mayo, Dani Pino, Andy Bustillos, Raúl Sparson, Ginadores, Alan Eisenberg, and more. Keep up with the most notorious family in Miami. Unravel the mystery with this new season of Princess of South Beach. Listen to Princess of South Beach as part of the Michael Duda podcast network. Available on the IHEAD radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, this is Annie. And Samantha. And we are the host of stuff I'm never told to you. An intersectional feminist podcast about anything and everything. From social issues, gender, entertainment, science, fashion, and everything in between. And we're coming out with a book called Stuff I Never Told You, The Feminist Past, Present, and Future. We break down things like the pantsuit revolution, the battle of the sexist, the civil rights movement, disability activism, LGBTQ plus rights, the Jane Collective, and so much more. Including the feminism of fictional women like Princess Leia, and tropes like the final girl. Which is one of my very favorite parts. You know I love digging into entertainment and tropes, but we also expanded out on that to talk about the power of representation at large. Yeah, and you know, I love digging into some of the minute things in history that people don't talk about enough that we need to have more conversations on. And hopefully, this will start that. You can order your copy of Stuff I Never Told You, The Feminist Past, Present, and Future. Now, where books are sold, or get yours at SteffiShadryFooks.com. Do you lay awake, scrolling at bedtime, or wake in the middle of the night and struggle to fall back to sleep? Start sleeping better tonight. I'm Catherine Nicolai, and my podcast, Nothing Much Happens, Bedtime Stories to Help You Sleep, has helped millions of people to get consistent, deep sleep. I tell family-friendly bedtime stories that train you to drift off and return to sleep quickly. And I use a few sleep-inducing techniques along the way that have many users asleep within the first three minutes. I hear from listeners every day who have suffered for years with insomnia, anxiety at nighttime, and just plain old busy brain, who are now getting a full night's sleep every night. I call on my 20 years of experience as a yoga and meditation teacher to create a soft landing place where you can feel safe and relaxed and get excellent sleep. Listen to Nothing Much Happens, Bedtime Stories to Help You Sleep, with Catherine Nicolai, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right, we are back. We're taking two more questions, and this specific question has to do with early retirement. Let's get nerdy with it for a second. Hey, man, Joel. This is Nate from Oklahoma. I have a question about a Roth 401k conversion to a Roth IRA conversion. When it comes to ladder you for return. I see all sorts of articles around rolling over traditional 401k into a traditional IRA and then converted it into a Roth in the five-year strategy. But I don't see rolling over a Roth 401k into a Roth IRA. So this is my question. My question is, when you roll over a Roth 401k into a Roth IRA, does the full amount that you roll over? Is that something you can access before 159 and a half? Thanks, guys. I appreciate it. All right, Matt. Now I'm thinking about one of my new favorite songs on the new Jason Isbell album called the King of Oklahoma. There's a lot of Oklahoma references in this one. But Oklahoma's so hot these days. It's such a good song. And you know what, Nate is setting himself up to be the King of Oklahoma financially speaking. Let's give this question. Nate, we're big fans of Roth money. We talked about that actually a couple weeks ago on a Friday flight. And the reasons are that Roth dollars are more flexible. And while contributing to a Roth IRA or 401k increases what you're going to pay in taxes now, it makes a lot of sense for a lot of folks from a future tax rate and tax planning perspective. It sounds like you have realized that. And that's kind of why you're opting for the Roth version of some of those retirement accounts. That's right. Yeah, Nate. He also mentioned the five year rule, which basically means that you can't take money out of a Roth IRA unless that account's been in existence for at least five years. And it doesn't actually matter how old you are, right? Even if you are older than 159 and a half. And so this is just another reason to open a Roth IRA earlier in life. You could be 100 and they'd be like, sorry, you got to wait until you're 100 white. Even if you can only contribute a tiny little bit. If you're rolling over those funds into a Roth IRA that you've had for a while, the Roth 401k funds that you move over, they get treated favorably. They're actually grandfathered in essentially. And so that's not the case if you're opening a new Roth IRA. And Nate, you also might be referring to the five year seasoning process of funds that you are able to convert from a traditional 401k to a Roth IRA as well. And so the way that works for other folks who are less familiar with it. But basically that money that gets converted from a traditional 401k, it's got to sit there for five years before you can get your hands on it. Even if that account has been open more than five years. Again, lots of rules here. Yeah, it comes with retirement accounts. Again, we're getting nerdy with it. Sometimes it gets tricky. But the heart of your question, Nate, is about whether or not you can tap those funds before 59 and a half. Once they've settled into the Roth IRA, once you've taken Roth 401k money and said, no, no, no, now it's Roth IRA money. And so the thing is that the money you roll over from your Roth 401k, it actually retains the same properties and characteristics. A helpful way to think about this is this is why it's called a Roth 401k to Roth IRA rollover. Yeah, so actually it's interesting because in his question, he called it a conversion. It's technically not a conversion. It's a rollover. It's still post tax dollars. It's Apple Stapples instead of Apple Storings. Exactly. But the good news is that any of your contributions made to the Roth 401k, I'm trying to say that clearly, the Roth 401k, those are actually, they are accessible. Tax and penalty free, once they have been rolled over into a Roth IRA. Yeah, okay. So it might be helpful to give another quick example here. And this is actually an illustration that our friend, Sean Mulaney, he's a CPA, he's a fee-only fiduciary planner and a financial independence enthusiast. Yes, he's given this example with these specific numbers. So let's say you've got a Roth 401k with $100,000 in it. $70,000 as contributions and $30,000 as earnings. And when you roll over that Roth 401k into a Roth IRA, it maintains that same split. And since you're able to withdraw Roth IRA contributions tax and penalty free, you now have access to those funds in, quote unquote, early retirement. The $70,000 specifically prior to the all-important 59 and a half age marker. And so it sounds like that this is what you're asking about. But it never hurts to check with a tax professional before making major changes because we don't give financial tax advice here. We are, this is for entertainment purposes only. But if this was me, this is exactly how I would be approaching this situation. Yeah. If you're going back to a Roth conversion ladder where you're converting 401k funds into a Roth IRA, that's a conversion in that entire bucket. I think that's what you're asking about. That entire bucket is accessible early after it seasons for five years. But since you're talking about the Roth 401k, it's only the contributions that you make to that Roth 401k that you can tap early. Yeah. By the way, if you need help doing that rollover, capitalize is a great company who can help you make it happen for free. They make it easy. We've got a review on the website that we'll link to you. And anybody else out there who's like, I need to do a rollover or a conversion. Capitalize can help and they're pretty solid. So they're worth looking into. And Nate, good luck. Keep talking money away into those Roth accounts. Future you is going to be thankful. Matt, let's get to our last question for this episode. This one is really coming from a guy who has done it all right. And it's an optimization play. Hey guys, my name's Kenton. I'm 38 from Ohio. My question is, should I pay off my mortgage early or add to my investments with my extra money? Currently, I have $190,000 in investments. And I'm adding about 20% between my 401k at work and a maxed out Roth. My mortgage has 60,000 left and 17 years on a 30 year mortgage, which is 4.5%. I'm fully funded for any other emergencies and have no other debts. I will have around $2,200 a month to either pay off my home in a little over two years or be added to my other investments. I just don't know if one's better than the others. Curious what you guys think. You guys are awesome and keep up the great work. Thank you. Actually, Kenton, you are awesome. You are crushing it. I just want to be like, Kenton when I grow up. I mean, have a pay for a house. In a couple of years, I feel like this is a classic personal finance question for sure. But, Kenton, the world is your oyster because you have made such great financial choices over the years. And honestly, here's the big reveal. Whichever direction you go is going to be fine. We are talking about making an optimized choice. This is the last little percent that's going to get you exactly perhaps to where you want, as opposed to some of the initial moves that are able to get folks most of the way there. No, no, no, no. You have the ability now to fine tune it and get you exactly where it is that you want to be. So, could it? Yeah, right off the bat. Great job. Yeah. It's like an embarrassment of bridges. This is really like the definition of a cat bird seat. Yeah. I think there are a lot of folks who are thinking, oh, yeah. Okay. I just wish that I had enough money on hand that I'm trying to figure out what to do as opposed to having the need or the desire drive the decision. I guarantee you, Kenton didn't get there overnight though. A lot of people, they see this, they hear this and they're like, well, man, I wish I could be there. But I guarantee it was a lot, a lot of hard work and a lot of years and consistency doing the right thing, paycheck, paycheck in, paycheck out and stuff like that, making wise choices. So, Kenton, yeah, congrats. And when you have a maxed out Roth and a 20% contribution to your workplace retirement account, Matt, you're going to be able to retire early. You're going to be able to retire probably in your late 40s or 50s. If you wanted to as well, these are the kind of choices Kenton is going to have as disposal plus a fully funded emergency fund and no debt besides the mortgage. Again, this is a great place to be. And this is really a money gear number seven question. Where you get to choose your own adventure, we have, you know, you can find the money gears up on our website at HowToMoney.com. There are seven money gears. Money gear number seven is when you've kind of made it. You're basically on the precipice of financial independence. And these kind of questions are the ones you get to decide what you want to do. You decide what you want to do with. There isn't necessarily a next thing you have to do. And so if you'd like the mental satisfaction, let's say, Kenton of having zero debt, if that means a lot to you, then that's probably the direction you should go and you should probably pay off the mortgage sooner rather than later. But if we're going just by the numbers, that's probably not the best decision necessarily. Sure. Yeah, yeah. To pay it off early, that would give him the emotional win. But to keep it around, that's technically the numbers win. If you're just crunching the numbers and getting technical with it. And that's because you can clearly earn more in a savings account than you would by paying off that mortgage. Like you literally don't even have to take on any investing risk in order to outperform. And specifically, he said $60,000 at 4.5%. Like that is something that I personally would probably keep around. Sure. And I would be prioritizing other financial goals. But again, it's a personal choice. This really does all come down to the things that you're pursuing your personal goals. And honestly, it kind of sounds like you're a little indifferent as to whether or not you keep the mortgage around or whether you pay it off. And so with that in mind, I, if this was me, I would optimize for the numbers and then build up some cash that's accessible and just wait and see. Yeah. Give yourself the ability to balance on an opportunity that might come along. Because right now, again, you don't have a need or a desire that's feeling you or pointing you in a direction to make a certain financial decision. And so instead, give yourself the most liquidity possible. And what that means is socking up a lot of money within your high yield savings, sitting on that and waiting for the ability to invest in a business startup. The desire might come along in a couple of years for you to start your own business or like, again, just another there beginning of the episode. And you would have the cash on hand to say, oh my gosh, I am a great woodworker. Like who knew this is something that I am good at that I would want to pursue. Boom, you could be in position to build out the dopest woodworking shop of all time there on your property. So that's if it was me, that's what I would do. Building up cash to set yourself up means building up optionality. And yeah. And so why when you're not forced to pay this debt off early and the numbers seem totally in your favor, keeping it around, would you pay it off when you could retain those options. With no harm, no harm done. I think if mad if savings count rates were still at like half a percent and his mortgage was at four and a half. And this was like the last debt in his life we would or answer would probably be different. But when savings accounts are paying five percent, then there's just no reason to feel like feel compelled to pay it off more quickly. That's true. And this often just last thing for Kenton. You can also enjoy some of your money too. I don't know if you are like me in that way. He didn't share his craft beer equivalent. Right. But maybe he could find a couple more craft beer equivalents. Yeah. And I'm not saying you need to take a page out of Dave's book and buy some fancy automobile or anything like that. Dave, I'm not trying to throw you under the bus man, but unless that's your thing, if it is, get you another Audi, get you the Lexus, whatever. If you've been putting something like that off though, like purchases you enjoy for years and years and years because you've been doing the right thing, make sure to take a step back and say, what am I doing this for? What are my bigger goals? In what ways can I spend money that moves the needle as well? Because you have the ability and the right to be able to spend some of that money that comes in to be able to make your life better. And be able to enjoy some of the fruits of your labors. So don't push that back off. Being one of those hyperfugal people who never allows themselves the benefit of some of the money that comes in and some of the gains that they've made. That's right. And if you have no idea what it is that you want to spend your money on, but just be like, hey, just go out with some friends and cover dinner, start there. Because that, I don't know, that sounds like a lot of fun to me as well. Cover drinks, cover the cost of dinner. But Ken, way to go, you are crushing it and keep up the good work, Joel. Let's get back to the beer that you not enjoyed during this episode. This is with a J dream, right, J-R-E-A-M. This is a strawberry cherry, cotton candy, jelly bean, sour. It's kind of like a pastry. Yeah. Kind of has some pastry notes going on, but who's this by? It's like Burley Oak Brewing Company. Did you share that at the beginning? I don't know if I did. Okay. I'll say it was good. This was interesting. It was not too over the top. I thought it was going to be based on reading what was in it. I was like, this is going to be ridiculous. Yeah. But no, I feel like the brewer pulled off a balanced delight here of a beverage with some light vanilla notes, the kind of fruitiness coming together as well with that. It made it really smooth, really tasty. It's not necessarily like a go-to style for me, but it's a rare breed. And so I enjoyed this one. It made me think of, so recently, the coffee shop that's right here next to us near us, that they moved locations recently. And when they did that, they literally crossed the street. Yeah. They started offering dip and dots. Oh, really? I didn't see that. They sell dip and dots and King of Pops, like the local Atlanta popsicle. So I was there with my, I'm going to go broke when I go with my kids. No, I was there with three out of four of my kids. And the lady, I don't want to say she made the mistake of saying this, but she was just like, oh, and by the way, we've got dip and dots and all the kids were like, dip and dots. I was just like, oh, cheese. I screamed in the future since 1982. I guess we're going to do that. But this beer reminds me of one of the flavors, which is rainbow. That's just the flavor, right? So it's just kind of like a fruit punch medley. Remind you of like, I'll pour some skittles in your hand, throw it back, right? It's the rainbow. It's got all the difference, or I guess I'm thinking of nerds as well. But you know, just like a multi-flavored fruit punch action going on. But like you said, I agree. It wasn't over the top. It wasn't too sweet. I appreciate that. That I didn't necessarily spike my blood sugar as we sat here and enjoy this one. But yeah, fun to specifically have a beer from a brewery that we've never been able to enjoy before. But buddy, that's going to be it for this episode. Don't forget to leave some solid reviews over on Apple Podcast, wherever it is that you listen. There's a good shot. You can win an awesome pair of socks to represent one of your favorite money podcasts. That's right. Get that screenshot over to us before midnight on Wednesday. Yeah, email it to howtomoneypod at gmail.com. That's right. And we will announce winners on Friday. But Joel, that's going to be it, buddy, for this one until next time. Best friends out. Best friends out. Finns out. Sonora and I hearts my Cultura podcast network. Present. Princess of South Beach, Season 2. Did you miss me? The new season of lies, scandals and skeletons in the closet. I am proud to take office as your first openly game me. This season, it's all out in the open. Listen to Princess of South Beach and on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up? This iced tea was something I know you're gonna want to hear. In my new podcast, iced tea's daily game. I'll be dropping some daily wisdom and personal insight that I believe is essential to achieving success in business, love, life, hustling, whatever. I'll be coming to you every single weekday with a fresh new quote that speaks directly to me and I hope to you as well. In five minutes or less, I'll break down why these words matter and reveal personal stories and experiences that show them in action in my life. My goal is to inspire all of you out there to achieve success and happiness, whatever that means to you. So start every weekday morning with me and get inspired. Listen to I.C.'s daily game every weekday on the iHeart Radio app, on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts and start your morning with me. See that sign? Employees only. That means keep out, buddy. It's just for us by well employees. This is where we talk freely about all the stuff happening in the world. You can keep Meghan Markle for all I care as long as I get to take Harry to a weekend in Vegas. I'm happy. It's employees only. courtesy of Ron Howard, the new podcast from Imagine Audio, pretty fast in iHeart Media. Listen on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.