Ask HTM - Work Provided Life Insurance, Compounding Returns with a 401k True-Up, & Selling a Home to an iBuyer #721

Hey Hallmark fans, we have a new podcast just for you dedicated to all things Hallmark movies. Come listen to me, Carrie, a publish romance author and industry insider, and me, Jenny. Carrie's best friend and a certified Hallmark junkie as we dissect these movies in the Hallmark junkies podcast. Let's do Hallmark together because we know you're watching too. Sit back, relax, get your Hallmark on and listen to the Hallmark junkies podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Merry Christmas! Hi, I'm Marissa Fallberg. And I'm Steven Wolf-Fanada. Come join us for our podcast brand new. So what's really new about brand new? Well, Steven and I are not only longtime C-suite executives, we're friends. Because of that, we've done a lot to say about tech entertainment, advertising, median marketing, what we call teen. It's real talk from the inside, personal talk too, and it's meant for everyone rising in business or just interested in it. Just look for the brand new podcast wherever you listen. It's a brand new conversation you won't want to miss. Hello world, you're tuning in to Amplify Color, and I'm your host, The Voice of Atlanta, Ryan Cameron. During the course of this season, I'll share the stories of black trailblazers who left an undeniable impact on the radio industry, despite the uphill challenges they faced, from the very first black DJ, all the way to the voices you know and love today. I'm Wendy Williams. My name is Tweet. I'm a little baby boy. It's me. Listen to Amplify Color on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcast. Welcome to How To Money. I'm Joel, and I am Matt. And today, we are answering your listener questions. That's right, buddy. This is a listener questions Monday episode that we've got lined up for you. We hope everybody out there had a wonderful weekend, but we've got five awesome questions to get to. A listener is wondering if the work provided life insurance that that her and her husband receive. If that's going to be enough, we're going to talk about that. Our listener is, he's got a 401k true up option. That's something that is offered, but he wants to know if this actually means that he's not leaving money on the table, not tune up, but true up, we'll get into it. Did I say true up? No, no, you said true up. I know people might hear that. They're like, I don't even know what that is. We'll talk about that. And then another listener, she is selling her house or she wants to, and she's wondering if she should go the, take the eye buyer route. So we've got that question plus a couple others on today's episode, all right, before we get to that man. I wanted to quickly mention, have you heard of EU 261? It's a law in the new COVID variant for the sounds like, no, although I can see why you say that. No, but there's B-A-2.61. But so this is a law in Europe that basically says that you get paid if a flight is delayed or canceled, and by a certain amount of time. So there's different rules about it. But that Euro European feel to it, EU, okay, yeah, exactly. And so there were a couple people in my life recently who mentioned flight cancellations on a trip tour from Europe, or at least a substantial delay. And I was like, hey, you might want to check this out and file a claim with the airline because you might be entitled to compensation, and you're like, oh, yeah, what, 20, 30 bucks and it's like, no, no, no, no, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of dollars. So this is one of those things that a lot of people don't know. And by the way, the statute of limitations is like years long for some of these. So if you're like, man, two years back, I got screwed on this flight. And it doesn't even have to be in inter-European flight. It can be a flight. Two and from. Yeah, exactly. So look at the details. So if you fancy like that, like all of Joel's friends are, make sure to set up for parents and all the likes, right? But folks are just talking about bicycling from point A to point B to the grocery store. Right. And I think to an article that tells, it helps you understand how to get compensation for you. Two, six, one, if you had a substantial delay or a cancellation. But it's kind of cool. Like my sister did this a few years ago, she actually got paid more in the compensation than the flight cost because she got such a dirt cheap deal. Okay. So it's, yeah, it's pretty sweet. They, they pay actual replacement costs, not depreciated cost up and take it. And we've talked about how these are, there are similar benefits that credit cards offer. But of course, you have to know about that and have used the right credit card or even have the credit card. So this kind of sidesteps all of that, or it does not come down to payment. It's even if you European law, even if you did, you could double dip essentially. And that's the real credit card and the EUT6 one. Yeah. Yeah. It makes sense that you should be able to, that is one of those things were interesting. It would not be cheap, I think it'd be frugal to, to take advantage of the credit card benefit, the trip cancellation service. But also under your, your legal right as someone taking a trip to or from Europe, like get the money. By the way, Matt, I don't think we've mentioned this yet. We're going to have a listener hang here in Atlanta in our home city this coming Friday. We teased to it. Was it last week or a couple of weeks ago, but it's official. This is the official announcement. Yeah. So if you live locally and you want to see our ugly mugs drink beer together, please come out to inner voice brewing. We'll be there from four to eight p.m. Let's incentivize folks as well. Let's, we'll, we'll have a few pairs of our how to money socks on hand. Sure. Yeah, might even buy you beer. We'll see. But yeah, we hope to see you there at inner voice. How to money hang, meet your fellow listener this Friday from four to eight. All right. Let's introduce the beer that you're going to enjoy today. This is a brew by common space. It's called Chubby Unicorn and we will give our thoughts on this guava milkshake IPA at the end of the episode. That's right. But let's get to the subject of hand Matt. We're answering listener questions. We got a good slate of them today on the show. And if you have a question, we would love to hear from you. It takes all of three minutes to think of your question, to talk it into your phone, into that voice memo app, and then descend it our way. You can find the specific instructions for how to do that, how to money.com slash ask, can't wait to hear from you. And this listener wants to know whether or not they should sell their home to an entity instead of a human. Hello. My name is Rose Mary and I currently live in central Texas. We are moving due to my husband's job. After much deliberation and against common wisdom, we have decided to sell our home, which we have only owned for two years. Where are the pros and cons of selling your home to an ibuyer, such as open door, versus going through a traditional real estate agency? When might you choose one option over the other? Thank you. All right. Let's kick this thing off, Rose Mary. Thank you so much for your question. And by the way, congrats on the new new job there for your husband. I hope it's just a fantastic opportunity as well as a promotion, right? Hopefully you are y'all are earning more. But I'm also hoping to that you get to move somewhere great. Right. I mean, Texas is great, but Texas is great. I mean, if you're wanting to move on from Texas, where would you hope to be going? I don't know. I mean, land at Georgia Bay. Yeah. I mean, probably water is just fine. It's pretty great here. But you're talking about selling your house and lucky for you, even after owning that house for just a couple of years, it's likely that you're still going to come out ahead, right? In a normal time period that could really come back and kind of bite you, but just given the lack of supply, given the sewing prices that we've seen since you made that purchase I'm pretty sure that you're probably still going to be doing okay. Yeah. Obviously comes down to your personal situation here, but at least it's not like, let's say it was 06, 07 that you made the purchase and then if you're looking to sell two years after that, that would put you in a pretty painful position and be called taking a bath, right? For sure. And so, yeah, definitely fortunate for Rosemary that even despite, despite those transaction costs that are so heavy, it involved in buying and selling and taking out of mortgage and all that stuff, it would typically mean that you would lose money. Over such a short-term ownership cycle, but that's not going to happen to you, Rosemary. But let's talk about Ibuyers. And first, what is an Ibuyer? Maybe let's define the terms. Well, simply put, they're big companies that are willing to instantly, and that's what the I stands for, by the way, in Ibuyers. They will instantly buy your house from you in order to turn around and sell it themselves on the open market, open door and offer pad. They are two of the largest players out there. There you mentioned, you mentioned open door Rosemary in your question, but Zillow and Redfin, they had a large percentage of the market before they ended their Ibuying programs. And basically, they had a tough time buying homes at scale, right? And during the pandemic, when there was a lot of money sloshing around, they were overpaying for houses. They literally bought high and sold low, which is the exact opposite of what you want to do, really, with any investment, right? And so, since then, Ibuying is kind of wise up. So, you're really, you're much less inclined to get an amazing offer today two, three years ago. You might have seen Zillow give you more money than you would have gotten if you put it on the open market. But now, purely because of the novelty of it, because it was a new thing, it hadn't necessarily been proven. They were still trying to figure things out. They were trying to establish market share. And so, they're like, hey, cool. And they, I guess they didn't really, they hadn't done their due diligence. They didn't figure it out what it took to buy and sell homes effectively without losing money. And then they realized, wait a second, it's actually going to be really hard to pull this up. There's a lot of factors that go into account. You know, like, how do you account for the incessant, barking dog that's next door or if you're just looking at pictures, which is how a lot of the Ibuires do it. It's oftentimes sight unseen, but the future of the just Ibuying industry is uncertain. It seems like that they're kind of building the plane while they're flying it. I really like the idea of Ibuires, but the reality just has played out a little differently. It sounds really good, but the end result isn't necessarily awesome. And that's largely because they are acting as another middleman who's looking to get paid. They offer that you're likely going to receive. It's going to be typically lower than what you would get with a traditional listing. They are looking for their piece of the pie. They're looking for their cut. Some folks might think that selling via an Ibuire is actually going to reduce fees, which is going to maybe make the offer more competitive in reality. Like why not go digital? Right. That is not the case because the fees can be similar. If not more than the fees that a typical realtor would charge. And so why would you go with an option where you're essentially going to get hit with the same fees. But with an inferior service, with at least with a realtor, you've got somebody like a real person. It feels like a customized bespoke tailored care that you're receiving. But with Ibuire, man, that seems like the path to take. If you're not looking for a service, Ibuire, even in the name itself, it makes me think of Irobot or whatever the movie is. Robots and stuff. Well, you said service. But most people when they're less upset in there, to sell via an Ibuire, they're not looking for service. They're looking to sell it immediately. They don't care about whether someone's going to hold their hand and walk them through the details and help them get their house in order so they can get top dollar. They want to be done. They want the transaction over-completed. They want their cash, right? And so that is what Ibuires do well. They are the convenience play, the convenience pick. But we're talking to one of the other big downsides of using an Ibuire is that you're asking one single entity to make an offer for your house. You're skipping the open market, right? And the competition that's generated when home is publicly listed. When it's put on the MLS, that's when everybody and their sister sees you're listing on Zillow and says, oh, that's a cute one on a cute street. I think I want to go take a look at that. When you sell directly to an Ibuire, you miss those eyeballs and you miss the potential interest from people. And even though obviously home buyers, they're not lined up the sidewalk to see a house like they were back in 2021, early 2022, still just a few competing offers, right? Is all you really need to ensure that you're getting the absolute best price? Getting at least two or three interested parties, looking at the house making offers on the home, is going to ensure that you're getting what it's actually worth on the market. You don't get that with an Ibuire. You're getting literally just the one offer and that one buyer. That doesn't help you. The Ibuire. That doesn't help you know whether or not that is what the house would actually go for if you were to put it up for sale. Plus, not all homes qualify because Ibuires aren't available in all markets. They're available kind of more in the Southern United States, less in the Northern regions. So yeah, they are in Texas, but they might not be where a lot of our other listeners who listen, Matt, where they are. It depends on the property too, because I think oftentimes they're looking for uniformity, because that's how they're able to easily, from a digital standpoint, determine the value of a home. And if you have a piece of property, that's on a lot of land, or that's a really unique home, either A, your house may not be eligible to be purchased by an Ibuire, or B, you might get severely lowballed, because they're not really taking that into account as much as some of the other things that a lot of folks are looking for. Yeah, if yours has like a water slide from the second story down to the pool, and you got like a grotto or something, I mean, you might get in the qualify right now, they might not even want to play with you. But like you said, folks who are wanting basically like cash now, which is a part of why we don't like this whole like the Ibuire industry, or sort of that mentality, is it seems like almost like a desperate ploy to unloading your house quickly, which isn't how you should be approaching selling your home. But yeah, the speed at which you can sell your house, how it's streamlined, that's certainly one of the advantages to going with an Ibuire. But it's also just going to be so much easier, right, because like maybe some folks actually, like they do have the time, right? It's not about how quickly they can do it. They actually have the time, but they just don't want to deal with the hassle of it. They don't want to put up with the headaches of scheduling appointments, of hiding all of their personal stuff, so that potential buyers can envision their own stuff there in the house. But you are paying a price for this convenience, and you know, we hope for your bottom line that you are able to take the time to actually do some of these things, to do the leg work. There are meaningful dollars on the line, and we, until the industry gets maybe more competitive or more efficient to where the Ibuires are taking less of a cut, we're not really in favor of going the, taking the Ibuire out. Sure. Yeah, I mean, a pawn shop will buy your stuff instantly too, and they're not good, but they're not going to pay you as much as you can get, exactly. Typically, if you list it yourself on Facebook Marketplace, or if you sell it on eBay, there are all sorts of ways where you can sell that asset that you have on a shorter, truncated timetable, but typically that means it doesn't make less money for it. It does feel like the pawn shop of realtors, like I think maybe that's the slight negative connotation. Again, not that pawn shops are a service. They serve a purpose. They're a legit business, and the ability to go in there, and man, I don't have the time. I just need to unload some stuff in order to have some cash on hand. It serves both parties well, but who stands to make a profit? The person that's there in the middle, and that's what Ibuires looking to do. Yeah. I mean, we've all seen pawnstars. We know what happens there, okay? I actually haven't seen pawnstars. Oh, really? You've never seen one episode of it? I don't think so. I mean, I understand the premise. Next, you're going to tell me you never saw one episode of Orange County choppers or whatever that was. Oh, I know. I definitely, okay. Yeah, they're always fighting and throwing stuff at each other. There's like two of the most popular reality TV shows of all thought that, and like Deadly is catch, right? But I think Insamation, Rosemary, we would say that it can't hurt to get a quote from open door from offer pad to see if they're in the ballpark, but get a quote from both, right? And you might get a solid offer, you know, with just a few clicks, but hiring an experienced agent who knows the ins and outs of your neighborhood could net you thousands of dollars more. If not tens of thousands of dollars more, and putting in some of that work upfront, whether it's, you know, taking out some ugly wallpaper and painting a neutral color or something like that, all those sorts of things that an agent is going to give you the tips on, hey, spending a few thousand here could mean many more thousands, right, when it comes to, you know, putting your home on the market and getting those offers. So I would talk to an agent once you have those offers and hand from the I buyers and say, hey, how much more could we get, like, and if it's not worth the hassle to make an extra couple grand, then you take the I buyer offer. But if you say, actually, the agent thinks we can get 15 to 20 grand more. It's worth the extra time, the extra effort. It doesn't hurt to at least bark of that I buyer tree, but in all likelihood, you're going to do better. Go in the traditional route. Totally agree. Yeah. It can be a great data point, essentially, to help you to decide what it is that you should be doing moving forward. And, you know, given the criticism that we have presented on the podcast about realtors and the fees that they present, or the fees that they charge, I think a lot of folks might be thinking, oh, man, I'm surprised that Matt and Joel aren't down with I buyers because it seems like it kind of automates things. It kind of, it's a more efficient marketplace, but it's not really like that's the problem is that you're beholden to a single buyer. If it was more like a sophisticated marketplace where buyers are being put directly in touch with sellers, and you are able to automate a lot of the stuff there in the middle to where there's not necessarily a middleman, a middleman there, and then like taking a cut as opposed to just software that's kind of running in the background, that sounds more attractive to me. Like I'm more hopeful for that as opposed to just another player that's in between you and your money. But we're just saying. We're not talking about widgets here. We're not talking about T-shirts, right? This is a complex market, the market of real estate, and it varies from street to street, and like you said, a dog barking across the street, a troublesome house that's right next door. Well, that can make all the difference in what you're getting and what buyer see and what they're willing to offer, and so I just don't know if I buyers are ever going to be able to compete in a hyper-customized business like real estate, but we've got more questions to get to. Something one about tossing bonus money into a retirement account. Does that make sense? Will it help him avoid more tax? We'll get to that and more right after this. Hey Hallmark fans, we have a new podcast just for you. Summers here, which means Hallmark Christmas in July is also here. Come listen to me, Carrie, a published romance author and industry insider. And me, Jenny. Best friend and a certified Hallmark junkie is we dissect these movies in the Hallmark junkies podcast, whether you love rewatching your all-time favorites or you get more excited for the new movies, we've got you covered. We're going to get into all of it. Best and more scenes, movie wardrobe, Christmas decor, and you know, those moments that didn't quite make sense. And of course, we'll discuss the most important question of all. Will the couple make it? Each episode will also have some fun industry insider tidbits from the industry insider herself. Carrie, that's me. So let's do Hallmark together this year because we know you're watching too. Sit back, relax, get your Hallmark fun, and listen to the Hallmark junkies podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Merry Christmas! Hi, I'm Marissa Fallberg. And I'm Steven Wolfed Ada. We want to invite you to join us for a new podcast for Ann New. So what's actually new about brand new? Well, Steven and I are not only working C-suite executives, we're friends. My friend Marissa is actually one of the most influential chief marketing officers in the world. And hey, Steven has a story career across finance, tech, and multicultural entertainment. Because of that, we've got a lot to say about the world of tech, entertainment, advertising, media, and marketing, what we actually call team. We always adore each other, but don't always agree with each other, and that's part of the fun. It's real talk from the inside. It's personal talk too, and it's meant for everyone, rising in business, or just interested in it. In each episode, we give our hot takes on hot topics, and always answer what's on your minds too. Just look for the brand new podcast on the iHeart podcast network, or wherever you listen. It's a brand new conversation that you won't want to miss. I'm the Wizard of Oz, I'm the one making everything happen. Real housewife of Salt Lake City Star, Jen Shaw, is running the scam of the century. We probably will never be able to be retired, but we're working to work anymore. Living a fat million dollar lifestyle on the backs of thousands of elderly victims. She turned up their lives for what a fake Fendi bag, Congrats Girl. When you have her confronted, instead of stopping, she finds ways to be sneaky or about it and keeps going. I remember one time, Stuart lost, like, about eight million, and Jen was very upset and she came down to the office late at night with coach, yelling at him, asking him where is our money is. Would you call her a con artist? I would just call her a con, she's not very much of an artist. Listen to Queen of the Con, season four, The Unreal Housewife, on the iHeart Radio App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. We are back, and we will get to that for when Kay question here in a minute, but first let's hear from a listener who is actually, she heard us answer a question, and now she's got another question. It's a question of a question. Thank you, that's off of a question. We'll get to that one. Oh, right now. Hi, Matt and Joel. My name is Megan, and I'm a longtime listener of the podcast from Portland, Oregon. Recently, when listening to one of the Ask How to Money episodes, you were answering a listener question about term versus whole life insurance, and it got me thinking about something that I'd love to get your advice on. Currently, my husband and I are both 29 and working full time with no kids. We both have insurance built into our work benefits, where we would get 1.5 times our income upon death of either of us. We have a healthy savings account and no debt beside our mortgage, and since we don't have any dependence, we have always thought this would be sufficient in the unlikely event that we'd need it. However, we do plan to start a family in the next few years and are wondering, should we go ahead and establish term life insurance now, since we're younger and healthy in case something where to happen, so that we can ensure that we get it for a good price knowing that we'll eventually need it? Thanks so much for your thoughts and love listening to the podcast. Matt speaking of efficient markets, life insurance is a much more efficient market than in real estate. Oh, I thought you were going to say universal whole life. Oh, yeah, yeah. There's a lot more, you know, all the actuary, actuary. Exactly. What are the things? Actuarial tables? Actuarial. Actuarial for it with multiple, you know, providers online in a simple sitting. And so we're big fans of term life, by the way, in case you didn't know, if you're like, I think I need some life insurance. Term life is the way to go. We'll actually put a link to an article I wrote about that on the website in the show notes. But before we tackle this new term life policy, let's talk about work provided life insurance policies for just a second, because a lot of folks, they might be thinking that, well, one and a half times your income, that's plenty, right? If something happens to either of you. And the truth is it might be, but it does depend on the specific details, right? It sounds like you've both done a good job thinking through the particulars, which is great. But for others who might be in a similar boat, consider what your debt obligation is as a couple. If one of you dies, would the other be able to continue to pay the mortgage? Let's say you make a substantially less year teacher and the other ones of software, the other person is a software engineer. That changes the dynamics, right? It's split 50-50. It's kind of a simpler dynamic to think about. I know there's obviously a lot of emotions involved in this. This can be kind of like a morbid exercise. Would you be able to get back to work after a couple of weeks, or do you think you need more months to more in your last sentence? We don't know that, right? Until we go through it. It's the kind of thing that's unlikely to happen, but it's worth envisioning so that you're properly prepared so that you feel comfortable, that you have enough insurance. In the case of that worst event happening. It depends on just some of the different personal finance goals that you might have as well. I think when you're earlier on in your careers, you may not have a ton of expendable additional income where you might say, well, it wouldn't hurt to go ahead and get an additional policy. If one is being provided for you at work, and if that's enough, then of course, why spend the additional money every single month for a policy that you don't necessarily need, if you've thought through some of these questions that you'll just mention. That workplace policy, typically it is one X or one and a half X, your income that's given as a free perk. Buying more through your workplace plan doesn't typically make more sense, because especially if you're healthy and 29 years old, you're going to be able to get a much better deal shopping the open market, so I wouldn't necessarily add to it at work. I would if you do end up believing or realizing that you need more, you're going to want to shop on the open market as opposed to going to that workplace plan for more. Yeah, but with that being a perk that your employer might offer, totally take advantage of that thing. I get the free stuff. Keep in mind though, that it's workplace provided, it's employer provided perk, so once you were to move on from that job, that thing's not going to be coming with you, which is the opposite, of course, if you get your own individual term life policy, that's good for no matter who it is that you work for. But yeah, important things to think through, and this is coming to from a guy that got term life before we had kids, like this is something that we did because we kind of thought through some of those, some of those different things. And Kate, she was, she just has a, like, I guess a lower risk tolerance level, and she was thinking, man, okay, I guess early on, it became clear that I was becoming more of the main breadwinner, and we had purchased a home. We hadn't had kids yet, but we did have a house, and I think it was about two years after we had that house that we had this, had this discussion and she was thinking, man, I would still love to be able to stay in this house, were you to die? I don't know if I would be able to be able to afford the mortgage, and so that's literally something that we went ahead and did. That was like a solid two years, I think, before we even had kids, and so for us, it was more of a piece of mind, a way to mitigate risk, even though it was going to be highly unlikely that that was going to happen. But every young couple who doesn't have kids in their 20s or whatever is going to have different things to think through, right? They might not own a home, but they might live in an air stream and say, listen, our costs are really low, and so the one X is plenty, right? That's more than enough. Or maybe you've got a ton of family that are fairly well off, and they've got basements in additional rooms or wings of the house that you can live in. These are all things to consider as you are trying to decide if you should go ahead and go out on your own and kind of get your own policy. But that being said, you don't need to be in a rush to go out there and secure your own term life policy. This is something that I would maybe put on your medium term financial to do list, but not something that needs to happen right away because you're asking about getting a policy early on while you're young before it gets really expensive. Well, premiums, they go up over time as you get older, yes, but they don't adjust a ton at all from your 20s to your 30s. You might end up literally paying just a few extra dollars every single month. But you'll also be covered for a few extra years on the tail end, which are the most expensive years to be insured for more important years. Yes, absolutely. So you're kind of rolling the dice here in one sense, right? Like you're hoping that there's not going to be like a medical catastrophe that's going to change those dynamics. But I think it's totally fine to wait two or three more years, even waiting until you have kids before getting out there and getting your own additional policy. Like literally, it depends where you look it up, but I saw one table and it showed that between the ages 25 and 35, you are literally only paying two dollars more. $2, $24, a year by waiting a decade, a decade of not paying for paying annual premiums on a policy that you are unlikely going to need, especially in these early years when you're like, I'm just trying to max out a Roth IRA or just trying to get the match on my 401k. You could maybe cut back from your investing to have more insurance, but these are the kind of hard decisions that people in their 20s have to make. I still remember Matt people being told by really smart people, hey, you need more term life insurance than I was like, but I'm just trying to become financially independent. And I feel like I need to sock more money into investments and that yeah, I get the value in that insurance, but I think I can wait a couple more years into it. And so that might be the case here too, possible to over ensure you don't want to overdo it towards keeping you from achieving some of those other things that you're getting after. Right. So those are the trade-offs. Like everything comes with the trade-off, right? Like that's the reality behind everything in personal finance. And so in a couple of years, you'll probably want to grab a 30-year term policy Megan, but to shop around like when you get to that point, policy genius is one of our favorite spots to get quotes. Costco members should also get quotes there too. And the reason you only need a policy, by the way, for three decades instead of for life, instead of getting like a whole life policy is because we're hoping that the need for life insurance is going to evaporate by the time the kids that you're playing on having the theoretical kids, by the time they're grown, right? And that you've been saving and investing for such a long stretch that at that point in time, you don't need the coverage. You could pay a bunch more. You can get life insurance for the rest of your years, which should be better off with the term policy and the much smaller premiums that accompany it, which would allow you to funnel even more money towards better financial goals like investing even more. It's a virtuous cycle. Yeah. And as far as like your kids being out of the house, like that gives you a solid 12 years to have like multiple failures to launch. Don't forget to get out of there before, you know, obviously they're no longer dependent on you. It's not like an easy slam dunk decision, but if you think through all those things and you say, wait a second, kind of like Matt and Kate, I feel like we need a little bit extra coverage. And really it's not that expensive. We're meeting all of our other financial goals anyway. So let's go ahead and make the purchase. It's really only going to be $19 a month or something like that. But then again, you might say, no, no, that would keep us from being able to achieve this this and this. And so actually, we're going to hold off for a couple more years. I think you could really make a pretty good argument either way. But bottom line, know that it does not get significantly more expensive, hardly at all. Like really, it really starts ticking up once you hit 40. But hey, let's get to our next question. This is from a listener who bottom line is wanting to make sure that he's not leaving money retirement dollars on the table at the end of the year via his 401k. Let's hear it. Hi, Matt and Joel. My name is Gavin and I'm from Layton, Utah. I am a recent newcomer to the How to Money family and I've been listening for about a month now and I love the simplicity that you guys bring to the complex world of finances. I am 34 years old and I have four children and I work in a sales role for a construction company. For my role, I qualify for an annual bonus. We are paid weekly and the company offers a 401k match. In order to maximize my weekly take home pay for day-to-day expenses, I've been making no contributions to my 401k weekly but will calculate to take enough out of my bonus to make sure that for the year, I've contributed enough of a percentage to get the match. Also I did confirm that my company does a true up and extra benefit that I've seen to do this is that because I'm contributing to my 401k and the funds come out pre-tax, my taxable amount which being a bonus is taxed at a higher percent is less. So I'm saving a good amount on my bonus taxes by doing this. My question is, by only contributing one time per year, am I losing the long-term benefits of compounding interest in my 401k? Thank you guys. Have a great day. Matt, I love that Gavin said that how do money family? Honestly, it is like a family, isn't it? I feel that. In our Facebook group, we've got 10,700 members, something like that now and people are always addressing each other in these terms of affection which is so sweet and does everybody refer to each other as brother and sister. That might get a little creepy, right? But maybe not quite to that extent. This place is kind of weird, right? Exactly. But it really is, like it's this community we're trying to build of people who are like minded and you'll want to see other people achieve success too. So I think of it in some ways as a family and I don't know, maybe you're the Godfather of it. But what does that make you? I've got another? Maybe? Fairy Godmother? Yeah, we'll say that. We'll go with that. We'll go around, man. Thanks for listening to the podcast and congrats on getting the full match on the 4-1-K. Even though you've got four kiddos at home, man, that's like a bigger hurdle to jump over. Yeah, it is. Maximizing those retirement accounts. Speaking for personal experience. Welcome to the four kids club. Right, Gavin. He's not that many. He's the mama bird, right? Like our daddy bird. He's got those mouths to feed. It's not easy. And so I'm glad that you've confirmed that your company does a true up, by the way. Not every plan offers this and so that can come back to bite you if let's say you don't contribute for a few paycheck cycles, but you're trying to invest money in bigger chunks later in the year in order to try to get that full match. Well, if your employer's plan goes the true up path of the end of the year, like Gavin says, you'll be fine, right? You receive the full matching dollars. You otherwise would have received if you had invested like normal, like clockwork along the way. But if your employer does not offer the ability to true up, you will have missed out on some of those free matching dollars. So this is just an important detail to make sure that you're aware of with your employer if you're not committing money to your 401k regularly throughout the year. Yeah. And basically the reason that the true up is necessary is employers basically are lazy. And so oftentimes the way the match is calculated is they base it on your annual salary. And so at the beginning of the year, they say, okay, if we provide a six percent match based on your salary, this is how much we would contribute. This is how much we're going to match every single paycheck. But if there are some gaps and I totally get it, Gavin, if you're kind of like, I'm not totally sure if we're, how aggressively we're going to invest this year. I got four miles to feed you. There might be times when you're just like, all right, things are looking kind of tight. So you skip out on some of those contributions, but basically when you contribute to your 401k, it acts as a trigger for your employer to come to, to match with their matching contribution. And so what that means is that if you invest at the end of the year with the lump sum and you don't have that true up, if let's say you just invest over three paychecks towards the end of the year, well, you're only going to get that match on those three paychecks. And the whole rest of the year, you're missing out. And so what's actually interesting is that this works both ways too. Let's say you are a very aggressive investor and you're like, I want to, I want to get, I want to get invested as soon as possible. And so you invest, let's just say the first three months of the year, well, you're literally putting like 90% of your paycheck aside to hit the limit. Yeah. Exactly. And were you to do that? Then each one of those paychecks, you would get the match that was calculated there for each paycheck divided out like over the entire year. But once you stop contributing to your 401k because you've hit your maximum contribution limit, well, your employer, again, it's not going to be triggered. And so they're not going to be matching it with dollars because they aren't calculating it on a per pay cycle basis. Some employers do that. It's more work and I understand it from it's a pain in the butt for them to basically calculate how much you're deciding to contribute for that pay cycle to your 401k. But from an employee standpoint, that would be the easiest route because then you literally they're matching dollar, you know, they're matching how based on however much that you're putting aside. Yeah. But unfortunately, that's just not how the majority of employers do it. Yeah. So you just have to know before you kind of figure out how, like what your contribution cycle is going to look like, you want to know the details of whether or not. That your employer's plan does, you want to know the details of contribution matching or not. And so if your employer doesn't, let's say offer the true or feature, you'll be well served to do whatever you can to make sure that you regularly invest, right? At least up to the match with every single paycheck, not waiting, let's say until the end of the year like Gavin's doing, right? And his question is basically whether or not taking this route and investing in a lump sum at the end of the year is okay because his employer is still going to contribute those matching dollars. And I would say the simple answer is yes, like as long as you're getting the full match, which you are because your employer does the true up, then you're totally fine. No worries, right? And more than anything, like more than anything, we don't want you leaving matching contributions on the table because as long as you're contributing enough to get the full match, win and how you do it is really less of a consideration. It's more minor. That's right. But that being said, if you, if you, and this is what we talk about here on how to money, we get a little nerdier with it. If you really want to optimize those dollars that you're waiting to invest until December towards the end of the year, well, they obviously won't be invested in the market quite as long. And since the stock market goes up, essentially three of every four years, you're actually going to be investing at a less than opportune time. The reality is that the sooner that you can get your dollars invested, the sooner you can get your dollars into your 401k, the better off you're going to be because that gives those dollars more time to experience the magic of compounding returns. And it may be more or less on a given year, but year after year, again, we're talking about compounding here is not just the fact that it happens once. It, we're talking about the fact that it just snowballs, it builds upon itself 25% of the time. You're going to come out ahead like in 2022. If you wait until December, you're like, whoa, like I actually, I actually made out like a bandit by waiting. But most of the time, that's not going to be exactly. So that would mean that rather than waiting to invest at the end of the year, investing regularly with every paycheck, that would be a better pick. But if you want to get really nerdy with it, the superior option is going to be to invest as aggressively as possible and as early in the year as possible. But again, we're talking about optimization here. We're not really talking about what's right or wrong. But either way, if by waiting to invest either at the squeeze it in at the beginning, or if you squeeze it in at the end of the year, either way, Gavin, for you, you're going to be made whole and you're not leaving any dollars on the table. Yeah. We're not trying to put pressure on you because again, you've got four mouths to feed. So it's not like, hey, store, mix it out in January, right? I mean, but this is something worth noting that by delaying, you're not optimizing to the fullest extent that you could. By the way, you mentioned a common misconception, Gavin, that I wanted to clear up, which is that bonuses are taxed at higher tax rates, which is actually not true. It kind of feels like it because more taxes withheld from bonus dollars that are paid out. Typically, we're talking about a flat 22% that the employer holds back in taxes when they pay out of bonus, not to mention Social Security, State Taxes, Medicare. So it can feel like, wait, I just got a $10,000 bonus. Why is it like $55,000 in my account? Like, I don't understand. I mean, everything gets sorted out though when you file your taxes. And so your effective tax rate is lower than 22%. That's going to shake out in the form of a tax refund for you when you file your taxes in the spring. So bonuses are awesome. And hopefully, you're even more excited to get yours this year knowing that it's not actually taxed at a higher rate. Matt, I hear that from people all the time that are like, oh, it's a misconception. Love getting a bonus. But man, the taxes suck on it. And it feels like it. But you're going to probably come out ahead when you file your taxes, you're going to get some money back. Yeah. I mean, it kind of comes back again to just some of the most common paths that employers take, which is when they apply the standard 22% tax rate on bonuses earned like that, it's the potentially easiest path for them to take, but it isn't the most optimized for you for your own personal finances, similar to the true up method or the true option, the fact that that's there. It's to be able to make up for the fact that they're not doing things perfectly optimized, which if you live in a perfect world, of course, everything would be perfectly optimized. But employers got other things to worry about. But Gavin, we think that you're going to be set. We appreciate you listening to the podcast. Joel, we've got two additional questions that we're going to get to in speaking of podcasts. We're going to get a little meta with it. We're going to talk about the medium of podcasting itself, plus one other right after the break. Hey, Hallmark fans, we have a new podcast just for you. Summers here, which means Hallmark Christmas in July is also here. Come listen to me, Carrie, a published romance author and industry insider. Me, Jenny, Carrie's best friend in a certified Hallmark junkie is we dissect these movies in the Hallmark junkies podcast, whether you love rewatching your all-time favorites or you get more excited for the new movies, we've got you covered. We're going to get into all of it. Best and worst scenes, movie wardrobe, Christmas decor, and you know, those moments that didn't quite make sense. And of course, we'll discuss the most important question of all. Will the couple make it? Each episode will also have some fun industry insider tidbits from the industry insider herself. Carrie, that's me. So let's do Hallmark together this year because we know you're watching too. Sit back, relax, get your Hallmark fun, and listen to the Hallmark junkies podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Merry Christmas! Hi, I'm Marissa Hallberg. And I'm Steven Wolfededa, and we want to invite you to join us for a new podcast for Ann knew. So what's actually new about brand new? Well, Steven and I are not only working C-suite executives, we're friends. My friend Marissa is actually one of the most influential chief marketing officers in the world. And hey, Steven has a story career across finance, tech, and multicultural entertainment. Because of that, we've got a lot to say about the world of tech, entertainment, advertising, media, and marketing, what we actually call teen. We always adore each other, but don't always agree with each other, and that's part of the fun. It's real talk from the inside, sometimes personal talk too, and it's meant for everyone, rising in business, or just interested in it. In each episode, we give our hot takes on hot topics, and always answer what's on your minds too. Just look for the brand new podcast on the iHeart podcast network, or wherever you listen. It's a brand new conversation that you won't want to miss. The podcast network, present, Princess of South Beach, Season 2. Guess who's back? Did you miss me? The Caledons are back with a new season of lies, scandals, and skeletons in the closet. And speaking of closets. I am proud to take office as your first openly gay mayor. This season, it's all out in the open. What color are your pants? Okay, maybe not everything. These people look like they're mixed up in some really dangerous stuff. Starring ex-mayo, Dani Pino, Andy Bustillos, Raúl Esparza, Gina Torres, Alan Eisenberg, and more. Keep up with the most notorious family in Miami, unravel the mystery with this new season of Princess of South Beach. Listen to Princess of South Beach as part of the Mycultura podcast network, available on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Alright, Matt, in just a second, we're going to help a listener out who has been crushing it with his own podcast, creating great content for a lot of years. But how does he scale? We'll get to that one in just a sec. But let's first get to a question for a listener who's wondering if you should build a new house and then rent it out. Hey guys, this is Keith from the Oregon Coast, calling in again. I'm curious what your guys' thoughts are on the Build to Rent option, as far as real state investing. I have several just bare ground properties that are paid off, utilities are in, bridging a build on, and I'm also a builder. So I guess I'm able to build brand new houses and then just rent them out, so like a spec house for you, sell them. So yeah, and I'm just, I don't hear a lot about this option, but it seems like it could be a pretty good long term. Alternatively, I could just take the money I would use to do that. I'd probably get it from pulling a heat lock out of my house and put a down payment on a duplex or a quad or something. Yeah, I don't know. But what's your guys' thoughts on this? Matt, at least this time, Keith's got a question that isn't like peering into my soul, right? The counseling relational, yes, wife is like picking them apart after going to counseling. Just like your wife is, Keith and I need a commiserate on the Oregon coast over beers about the, you know, how difficult it is to be married to or to be in a relationship with a therapist. And I'm going to invite myself not to sit in on your conversation but to drink beer and to go hiking. And laugh at us. But Keith, we really like your question, because normally we would be a little more cautious of this approach, right? Building something from scratch and, you know, with this long kind of drawn out plan in order to have investment property, but you specifically check a bunch of boxes. You own the land. So check. The utilities are already in the ground. That's another check. That's awesome. Like the opposite of like when people are trying to sell you lakefront property. I know. But it's like for 10 grand. You can get this lakefront spot. Here's somebody we know that will provide septic and all that. But Keith is also the builder. And I think if any of those details were different, our advice would probably likely be different as well. Like if Joe Schmoe was asking about just buying random dirt in a far off location, like no, like a country song. That would be our advice. We'd say, yeah, probably not, but it sounds like, you know, Keith, he's got to know how and he's got the ability, I think, to pull this off. It makes me think that we've got a friend. And maybe this is like 10, 12, 13 years ago, something like that. He in town purchased a plot of land and the goal for him was to build his house on that property. But unfortunately, it didn't the American dream. It did not work out for him, whether I think it was a combination of maybe not having done quite as much due diligence, but also, I think maybe some slight dishonesty on the part of the seller. But bottom line, it was basically FEMA floodmaps made it unbuildable. She could not build there. And I don't, I think he ended up, he might still own the piece of property. Maybe he donated it. I think he had to donate it for tax. That was like the best way. She still lost money, much less the money in the, in the sorrow. I think he ended up, it ended up being like $30,000, maybe that he'd originally, originally paid for that. So Keith, for you, we think this could be an excellent route and an excellent path to take for everybody else out there. Listen to why we think Keith is well suited to do this, right? Because he truly is. He is. Yeah, you're right. A lot of other people who would say, I want to buy some land and I want to build on it. There's just a lot you need to consider before you go that route. And utilities are definitely one consideration. But, but this is kind of like Keith's superpower here, right? You'd likely be able to build this house for far less than what someone else in the area would pay for a new home given the connections that you have and the sweat equity that you would likely be able to put in Keith. I mean, like maybe you're doing the tiling, right? Maybe you're even installing some of the electrical. I don't know. But those factors are critical when you're trying to figure out if this is a sound decision because the cost of building has gone up substantially, but so have rents and home values. And so as long as the numbers make sense for you and you're not taking on crazy, high interest debt that pulled this off, it seems like a sound decision. And to us, and it also makes me think, Matt, he mentioned buying a duplex or a triplex. Well, Keith, what if when you build this house, the hybrid approach, you build a duplex or a triplex, but you build a next one. That's, I had a neighbor across the street back when we lived in town as well. And he built a really nice duplex. He lived in one half and he rented out the other. He eventually moved away from that, from that part of town, he lives elsewhere now and he runs out both. And this has been like a moneymaker for him, hand over fist for a whole lot of years. So if you build a nice duplex, I think maybe that is the best of both worlds. That's right. Also, before we keep talking about real estate, Keith, he didn't mention any of his specifics, but this is also assuming that Keith, that you are already maxing out your retirement accounts, which are going to be the easy button when it comes to growing your net worth. But just because it's easy, like that doesn't mean that investing in the overall market, that that is an inferior option. And because in many ways, it's actually going to be the superior option, right? Like you're going to be more diversified. It can be fully automated. You don't have to worry about managing the properties. And of course, there's the chance that you may not quite get the juicy returns like you would with real estate. But that doesn't mean that you should skip investing, of course, in boring tax-advantaged accounts. And keep in mind, too, like one of the things you said was you haven't heard many folks talk about taking this path. And I think the reason that is is because oftentimes you have real estate developers. You've got developers, right? And they are the ones who are like choosing the sites. They're figuring out how many houses they're going to kind of cram on to put on the land. And then you've got property real estate managers. They're typically specialized in what it is that they do from a business standpoint that makes a lot of sense. But as an individual, Keith, if you want to be scrappy and are willing to learn and do both of these things, man, you've got the ability to see this thing through from soup to nuts, right? Like you are, you've got the plots of land. You can figure out like how it is, maybe even that you want to orient the houses on the property. Like you have an ability to create some awesome places here, but then see it through, right? Like get it ready, show it, manage it. And with that in mind, again, like Joel said, this is, it's almost like a, it's a super power, but it's almost like an unfair advantage that you have compared to anybody else who is looking to get into real estate. Yeah. So put it to use. And especially if you're going to live in half of it, maybe maybe you say, oh, for two years, I'm willing to live in the property and maybe that's going to, to make this and even better, make it even make more sense, right? Make it even better investment. But assuming you're good to go, right? And you're ready to put that super power to use. It's really important to make sure that you're performing your due diligence, right? Gathering the data, running the numbers is a really important step in this whole process. You got to figure out how much is this going to, is this house or multifamily residence going to cost me to build? And what are you likely to be able to get in rent for it? Is there a dearth of rental units where you currently live, like knowing all good information to be looking up into those local dynamics are crucial in real estate, right? And local zoning as well, like, so the fact that you mentioned that the utilities are already in the ground, I picture a development of a bunch of houses and maybe zoning may not allow for multifamily or maybe there's an HOA that keeps you from being able to rent that out. These are obviously all things that you want to make sure that you have a good grasp on. Yeah. Yeah. And I love that you stay in a long term, by the way. I think it's really important because you got into the local dynamics, but you also got to say, all right, well, how long am I willing to hold on to this? And it sounds like Keith is willing to make this decision and build this house and manage it as a rental for years and years to come. And so if the numbers make sense from the get go, the longer your ownership timeline, the better it's going to perform for you over the years. When we had Chad Carson on recently, what did he say that owning a house, owning rental property over the long term eventually, it starts out as a part time job and it turns into a blue chip stock. And so the pain on the front end can pay off on the back end in a meaningful way. So Keith, if, yeah, if the numbers make sense, even in the infancy of the project, then I think it's, it's only going to get better over the years and really makes sense down the road. Assuming there's not something terrible that happens next, you know, next door down there. But Keith, we appreciate your question and we really like how you are thinking about this potential real estate investment, Joel, let's get to our last question. This is from Doug and he has an affinity for the eighties. Hey, Matt, Joel, Doug here from Philadelphia. And I have a question for you that is not a money question. I'm pretty good on that front and have been listening to you guys and taking your advice. Now for almost a year, this is more of a podcasting question. There are a lot of different money podcasts out there and you guys seem to have built quite an audience for yourself. I have a podcast on eighties movies, sort of a comedy podcast and then looking to sort of break through or build an audience. I mean, it's just a hobby. I know there are services out there that will help promote your show blah, blah, blah. I certainly don't want to spend money. Is there any advice that you have any any sort of outlets or maybe how you guys got started? It's something that I really haven't heard you guys talk about and I know that this is not a money question. So if it doesn't make the show, I totally get it. But anyway, thank you so much. Shameless plug. The podcast is good times great movies. I don't know. You can cut that out. You don't need to play that if you don't want to. All right. Thanks, guys. I really enjoy the show. Doug, we're not cutting it out. That totally gets to stay for everybody to hear so that they can check out your podcast. People should go listen. I went and listened to a couple episodes and you know, of course, the one I look for, Matt, what's my favorite eighties movie? Alph. Alph was he in a movie? That would actually have been a good pick. That's a good guess. But no, Bloodsport with John Klopp and Damn. Classic. Forrest Whitaker. I mean, that's a classic. He was trying to hunt down John Klopp and yeah, really? Oh, yeah. The underground fighting arena. I remember that, dude. I just remember John Klopp and Van Dam doing the splits and me. Yes. I mean, it's like a cultural phenomenon, right? Like, basically, as a kid, you knew that if you could do the splits like him, somehow you'd get just as ripped. It's somehow you'd be able to kick everybody's butt and it's just science. I managed to never do any of the above things. But yeah, actually, Doug covered Bloodsport in episode 95. So if you're interested in hearing more about one epic movie, that is go back and listen to that. We'll link to it in the show notes. But yeah, he's blinded at the end and he's like, yes, John Lee. Oh, it's so good. But Doug was glad to get your show off the ground and he's been at it for like 200 something episodes. But he's right. There are a lot of personal finance podcasts and there are a lot of good ones out there too. We're really thankful that how do money listeners listen to listen to this show and that they trust us. And so I don't know exactly, Matt. I don't know if I could boil it down to like how or why people listen to us. These seven steps. Yeah. Right. We're not going to have that per se. Hopefully it's because we have a passion for the topic. Hopefully it's because we're decently well versed in it and hopefully it's because we're trustworthy as well. Yeah. We've resonated with a specific audience. But also we've been consistent, right? As one of the things, Doug, I'm sure that you've noticed is that the podcasting space is crowded. So you were talking about Europe, Joel, at the beginning of the episode, it's kind of like Europe in July, which is why you should travel during shoulder season. But it is totally true that there are basically millions of podcasts out there who are vying for listening time. But a huge percentage of those podcasts that exist, well, they've only released one single episode and then another massive chunk have only released something like 10 episodes. So with you being in the hundreds, I think consistency clearly isn't a problem. That's like step one, right? Yeah. It goes there. But I know for us, that was sort of one of the first things that we focused on was to be incredibly consistent, not only with making sure that we did it, but just the same time every week as well, because we wanted to create something regular that listeners were looking for too. They knew they're like, oh, not the time is Wednesday. Our first episode, when we only had one episode, we would release them on Wednesdays. But you want to start building in that regularity and as you are starting to build up that base of listeners. What they used to call it in the world of radio was appointment listening, right? Oh, okay. It's like, oh, at 608, you know, when it's tune in, yeah, your favorite host is going to come on and they're going to talk about this or whatever. And so that's kind of what we wanted was, hey, every week you get used to listening and learning. And you kind of keep doing it because hopefully it's helping you and it's fun. It's a part of your routine, right? Exactly. And Matt, we also learned a lesson pretty early on when people thought they were turning into a personal finance podcast and we talked about beer for like 10 minutes at the beginning. Do you remember that? I do. Yeah. Well, early, early on, we also called it poor, not poor, like you poor beer, not poor, bro, which is also just a confusing name. Also a tongue twister. So we had to change some of the marketing to appeal to the audience who were looking for it as well, but obviously we're fans of craft beer and we included in the show. It's a part of our vibe, but over time we found more subtle ways to we've been into the show. And so for instance, asking our guests about their craft beer equivalent, that's a great way for it to be baked into the show, but dominating the initial most important 10 minutes of our conversation with beer talk, not so great, especially when people are like looking for money advice and the practical help in that department. Sure. Of course, you don't want to neuter your show and remove all personality from it, but finding a way to garner feedback where you're listening to any critiques can help you to refine your pod. Matt, we had an email address specifically dedicated to that, right? It was it was like how to money.com slash get better. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. The URL check that alive or not, but that was the way people could submit negative feedback and say, like, listen, you guys suck on this or you really need to approve on this or constructive criticism. I can't believe you said this. Always helpful. And so we try to listen from that feedback and make adjustments because we're learning on the fly too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We are always trying to create a better product at the end of the day. Community, if you have some feedback for us, totally let us know. I think we still have that page up. I think for slash get better or do better. Maybe that was it, but either way, just email us email us at how to money pod at gmail.com. It goes to both Joel and I and we always read those emails, but Doug mentioned some of those different services that you can pay to promote your show. Obviously don't do that because a lot of those are scams. I'm sure you're aware of that. Just today, I dove into the, what are the message requests and Instagram, which I've only looked at once every quarter, basically, I'm guessing like 80% of them are there. So there's like something like 30 promotion things where it's just like for $10, you get a thousand or a hundred new, you know, a hundred new followers, all of that kind of stuff. It's every like friend request I got on LinkedIn is the same thing exactly. And you know, your follower count or those downloads that, you know, they might go up, but that might just be the product of bots. So I would trust any of those actual, you know, there's requests, those internet scam artists who promise to raise the profile of your show. And I also want to mention that you're probably narrow casting with the content of your show, right? This isn't a problem though, given what it is you talk about, given the length of your show, it's just likely I think that you're going to have fewer, yet more rabid listeners and fans of good times. What was it? Great. Good times, great movies. Yeah. So I'm not sure if you're looking to monetize the podcast, but if you are taking the route of Patreon or buy my coffee, these can be great ways, like those platforms can help to just turn some of those diehard listeners into some actual money where you're able to monetize the show gradually. It doesn't have to be this all or nothing kind of thing. I think there are ways for folks to kind of, to kind of dabble and kind of start offsetting some costs and maybe, maybe eventually, you're, oh man, are we actually generating an income? That would of course be an awesome thing. I mean, the real way to have the most successful podcast is to pivot into a crime show, because that's what people love and listen to the most, and that's what actually Matt and I are going to do starting next week, we're ditching the personal finance that we're going to create. We're going to commit the crimes. Yeah. Yeah. And then we're going to detail it along the way. We're going to document it. It's going to be insane. We're going to hide in the woods, entries, and we'll be on the run for hopefully years. But the widely podcasting like Blair Witch style about, right, that would actually think about it. That would crush. You were creating a show in real time and in the near run, yes, you're on the run. But then I guess you would get de-platformed, right? Like they would, because they wouldn't want that going out, unless somehow you had control over your platform, you know, like if you were, you know, Elon Musk rich, you can control the means of which you're communicating with folks. Right. Well, so enough of that. And if you were, you'd have other ways to promote your podcast. Sure. And I, of course, I'm joking, but the real reality is there are certain genres and certain types of podcasts that just have more purchase with a broader audience, right? And so I think a personal finance podcast, it's not going to be as listened to as one of the more popular long form interview or crime podcasts. That's true. That's okay. But it's the thing that we want to create. And so you're creating the thing you want to create, and that's the most important part. You have. Yeah. I think if you're this far into it, you have found your people. Yeah. And that is what's important. Yeah, yeah. And the other thing, I mean, Seth Godin talks about the minimum viable audience and I think you have to figure, okay, what is that for me? If I've got 1,500, 1,800, 2,000 people listening every single episode I create, well, would I show up to a lecture hall if 2,000 people wanted to listen to me talk about 80s movies? Heck yeah, I would, right? Because that I'm that passionate about it, to see that many people in one place. But sometimes we look at it as numbers on a screen when these are real human people digesting our content, which is super cool. So think about it like that and then also realize, actually, that's a lot of people I'm speaking to. It's a ton of people who really like and care about the same thing I care about. So I love that that Doug called it a hobby. Like I think the number one rule of podcasting is that you should do it if you feel compelled to get a message out into the world. You've got to love it. And it's okay to want to grow, but don't forget the reason you started it and why you take the time every week to continue creating. So the way we started was like the little we said, hey, we're going to be AAA at everything. We're not going to be pro level because that would take too much time, too much effort. But as long as we're hitting AAA marks, as long as we're professional doing our best and we're being consistent, like you said. And then we try to get on other podcasts to kind of raise the profile of our show and help other people find out. But we not just podcasts that did the exact same thing we did, kind of tangential podcasts. Sure. Yeah. But that being said, we didn't do a ton of that. Like literally maybe just like a few, like a handful, but slowly over time, we did build up an audience. And I guess I'm thinking of marketing, like it makes me like early on we made coosies. But we didn't even send those out to listeners. I think we just like gave them out to our friends because we thought it was cool. Like we were just nerdy and it was something that we enjoyed. But that's kind of what Joel's speaking to, like make sure that it's fun for you. Don't worry too much about the marketing side of things. Obviously with, like so we were able to grow the show and then, you know, we're with Iheart now. And so they do a lot of the marketing for us as well. But at the end of the day, don't, I honestly wouldn't even worry too much about that because marketing, I heard this quote where they said that basically marketing wins the day, but quality content wins the year. Like marketing is good for the short run. But unless you're creating a quality product, it doesn't really matter what the marketing plan is. It depends on what it is that you're creating. And so Doug, I think focusing on the quality of the show, don't forget that that is what you need to be focused on, you know, first and foremost, and you're supposed to worry about the marketing and the scaling and growing side of things. And Doug's is the kind of show where people, it's going to get word of mouth traction, right? People who are like, I love 80s movies and they know their best friend loves 80s movies. And they're like, you've got to listen to this podcast I'm listening to you. That's going to be the best way for it to grow. I think you could get on, you know, try to get on other podcasts, you can, you can work on other ways to grow and to find your audience. And you can put a lot of effort into that. But do you have the time, like the, the biggest thing focused the majority of your time on creating something great that you like creating? That's going to be the most sustainable. It makes me think we have a, we have a listener Matt who writes about a newsletter about fitness. And that's this thing when it comes to fitness is like, do what's sustainable. You might like be able to go hard seven days a week for two weeks, but then you're going to burn out. You're going to stop. And so whatever workouts you choose, make sure it's something you want to replicate. You want to keep doing. And that's kind of, I've found that to be true in my own life. If I try to do something that I hate, I'm probably going to like, you're going to stop it out. Yeah. Exactly. All right. Doug, we wish you the best man and hopefully you get millions of downloads just from this sweet, how did money podcast? That's right. It's been the sweet HTM plug. The boys gave me a HTM bump. That's right. That's right. The beer you and I enjoyed, Joel was chubby unicorn. Again, this was a guava milkshake IPA by common space. What were your thoughts? You know, it's funny. On the on the can, it says it came with guava puree in it. So I expected it to be a little thicker. It wasn't. Oh, yeah. It was a little sweet, a little vanilla smoothie, vanilla smoothness to it. And so I would say with, yes, some of that guava note, but not as much as I expected. Yes. It lent it to that guava passion fruit, like tropical flavors. Like it makes me think of like, not skittles, but the tropical skittles. Yeah. I don't know. It's hard to explain kind of that softness that you get with some of the tropical flavors. But we definitely had that going on in conjunction with the fact that I assumed there was lactose in this, considering it was a milkshake IPA. But with it being an IPA that also, it wasn't overly sweet because you had the bitterness from the hops. It worked really well. And actually really dug this one. And I dug the label too. There's got the unicorn on there. And we're joking before we hit record that, is it welled works? They've got like a lot of unicorn imagery with their brand and so it might be them. Somebody's got the Ninjaverse unicorn. Oh, yes. I think that's welled works. I could be wrong. No, I don't think it is. I think it's swiss. It's half acre or something like that, maybe. Oh, I don't know. I should, we should know. We're craft beer experts, Matt. We should know. But they've got multiple beers that are all unicorn, unicorn based, whatever. So I hope comments, whoops, almost dropped it. Oh, comment space doesn't get shut down because they got the unicorn on there. I hope they don't get the season to say. There's plenty of room out there for just like there's plenty of room for all the different podcasts out there. There's plenty room for unicorn craft beer. I love a good like fruited milkshake IPA. One of my favorites of all time is the strawberry milkshake IPA from, I want to, um, wrecking bar. Oh, yeah. That is a delicious one. But yeah, this one was solid and it's, yeah, if you like, sour as any like IPAs, put them together. Yeah. Right. That's right. We'll make sure to link to any of the different resources we mentioned during this episode up on the website and our show notes at how to money.com. And if you are not yet a subscriber to the how to money newsletter, make sure that you are how to money.com forward slash newsletter, you can see some of the previous issues there to get a sampling. But go ahead and sign up to ensure that you don't miss the next newsletter that goes out on Tuesday. Sorry. Tomorrow morning. That's going to be it for this one. Until next time. Best friends out. Best friends out. Hey Hallmark fans, we have a new podcast just for you dedicated to all things Hallmark movies. Come listen to me, Carrie, a published romance author and industry insider, and me, Jenny. Carrie's best friend and a certified Hallmark junkie. As we dissect these movies in the Hallmark junkies podcast, let's do Hallmark together because we know you're watching too. Sit back, relax, get your hallmark on, and listen to the Hallmark junkies podcast on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Merry Christmas. Hi, I'm Marissa Thalberg. And I'm Stephen Wolf Fadena. Come join us for our podcast brand new. So what's really new about brand new? Well, Stephen and I are not only longtime C-suite executives, we're friends. Because of that, we've got a lot to say about tech entertainment, advertising, media, and marketing, what we call teen. 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