Avoid & Combat Crushing Medical Debt w/ Dr. Virgie #716

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Listen to the last archive on the iHeart Radio app Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and we are the host of Stuff Mom Never Told You a podcast about intersectional feminism and all the way It impacts all of us and now we're coming out with a book that takes an even deeper look at some of the topics important to us We dig into people leading movements like civil rights and the Jane collective and we discuss by fictional characters like Princess Leah and tropes like the final girl are powerful and so much more order your copy today of Stuff Mom Never Told You with a feminist past present and future Where books are sold or get yours at stuff you should read books dot com Welcome to how to money. I'm Joel and I am Matt and today we're talking how to avoid and combat crushing medical debt with Dr. Verge Ellington So the leading cause of personal bankruptcy is you guessed it medical bills So when a a singular expense like this is such a blight on our personal finances You better believe that we're going to spend a minute on how we can not only Eliminate medical debt, but just avoid it in the first place So here's some some more sobering statistics and estimated 100 million Americans have amassed nearly $200 billion in medical debt and nearly one in five adults have medical debt that is currently in collections This is according to a study by the journal of the American Medical Association and that is why we're happy to have Dr. Verge Bright Ellington joining us today on the pod she Obviously, but I said doctor so she's an insider And her book crushed medical debt it outlines the steps that we need to take to ensure that we're not paying money that we don't oh So we can avoid you know becoming one of those statistics. I just mentioned earlier so Dr. Verge Thank you so much for joining us today on the podcast You know what thank you so much for having me guys. It's awesome talking with you Yeah, no we're really excited for this conversation because I think a lot of people might say Bullring but Matt just highlighted so many reasons right? Yeah, it's like money. It is not boring exactly And we like money and we like keeping money in our pockets and this Yes, this is a place where we get separated from our money So it's really important to talk about but the first question we have for everybody who comes on the show is Matt and I we like to splurge a little bit in the here and now on a couple things we enjoy one of those things is craft beer even though I know you're a doctor and and you might say It's it's not the ideal choice, right? But that is something we do enjoy in moderation What is that thing you like to splurge on in the here now? What do you spend more money on in your personal life while you're also still making wise choices for the future? I have to tell you guys it is sushi and it's one of those things that sneaks up on you right with any addiction You don't realize your problem until something happens right is just matched in your face And I am just so thrilled and fortunate that the my favorite sushi place delivers And I'm just like doing my thing and then the day after Black Friday so the day after Thanksgiving one year My I order my sushi usual thing and the guy, you know, just really sweet, you know kind guy This usual smile has in one hand the sushi bag and then the other hand a big giant bottle of sake And it hit me I was like I spend so much money with these folks They're just like they're like okay, we're gonna get in on you know giving our best customers a big giant present And I that's when I have figured out, you know what, Ruchie, you have a problem We're spending too much with these that's a lot of money on sushi Okay, then quick follow up. Do you like the the different rolls that they make you know with the different ingredients Or do you like the super fresh high-end cut and meat they're just on that perfectly formed piece of rice? You know what I really I'm pretty predictable. I really enjoy The salmon that fresh salmon Surrounded by carbs, you know, there's just something like pure white rice carbs But also a little bit of extra fat that mouthfeel with the avocado so my thing All right when I'm trying to be healthy and be a good girl is the salmon avocado roll But when I am being a bad girl I always have to get the shrimp tempura with it Get that fry. Oh, yeah, yeah, so that's me they again these guys have my order down cold. I love it Yeah, that's so good speaking of that rice that those carbs I've been trying to talk Joel into getting the night the high-end Rice that they sell at Costco. It's like three times the the price of the cheaper stuff, but it's so much when you buy back in Costco It's still last year five years. You're still coming at it. Exactly All right, Dr. Vergie. Let's let's kind of dive into talking about medical debt and You know like here on the podcast Like I don't think there's much reason for us to talk necessarily about like policy shortcomings and how this Impact's millions of folks across the country quite intimately every year But given the lack of political well and output and changes we've seen Often times it seemed that we were just left to advocate for ourselves as is that your experience and what you've seen working with patients Also, this is the problem guys The Issue is is that in the United States in order to have Medical financial literacy you it's just it's really really people feel like it's impossible to have but in the United States You have to have medical financial literacy in order to have financial stability period Because most Americans even those of us with fabulous insurance are just one accident or serious illness away from a lifetime of debt or worse And so people think well, we don't have any other choice You know that we're just stuck with this system and it's an expensive system and it is what it is No, that's the bad news. The good news is no, it doesn't have to be this way. It doesn't have to be that way So no we have control over not getting taken advantage of we have control over not becoming victims to predatory billing We just don't know it 99.9% of us don't know it I feel like we've all talked to somebody who says I avoided going in to seek medical care Because I was worried about the financial repercussions of going in to see the doctor or going to the hospital and so people Will avoid getting the medical care they need sometimes because they're scared of the financial outcome which says a lot and Right, I mean that's that's kind of scary stuff the people won't get what they need they won't see Someone who can help them with their problem because they're worried about how much is going to cost You know you guys are talking about the statistics at the beginning You know the top of our conversation and what's really really sad and heartbreaking is scary is that there's direct relationship between having medical bills Meaning medical debt meaning that's a bill that you can't pay off in total at the end of the month and life span So people put off to your point people put off getting care because they can't afford it They're afraid of the bill and something that could have been preventive Maybe before the issue started or like screening type stuff or something that was small gets really really huge And it's really expensive and or can shorten your life So it's it's real it's it there is a lot of statistics that bear this out that the American lifespan actually is shortened by debt Well, and I mean that everybody's heard the phrase that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure right and if we just would And I always say you know, I tell my family this all the time I say you know Not a pound of care. I say worth more than 10 pounds of cure Our ounce of prevention is worth more than 10 pounds of cure. It's just I can't even begin to tell you believe it that it's It's a big deal and you know the student debt I saw you guys are talking about that the other week the student debt or student loan Pause is ending you know at the end of this month. So Basically all of the payments are now due again as of October 1st There's a study that came out last week that showed those folks with student debt Have lower health outcomes and higher Essentially medical more medical problems and actually end up having more medical bills because they're cutting back on other things trying to make those student debt payments So there's a direct relationship between debt and Destroyed families destroyed lives and Financial futures sure and for going some of that care that would be the classic example of being cheap versus frugal which we talk Yeah, it's a common fashion term penny wise pound Exactly okay, so what you kind of I mean you launch into your book right like right out of the get you kind of give some different case studies And you gave one where you were documenting Basically signing an agreement for these services before there is a any services being provided like so how common is this tactic and you know Is there a chance that if you are faced with one of those and it feels like you're being pressured to pay that is there a chance that you would potentially not Receive care, you know where you actually if you signing one of those questions. How does that work? You know what and I and I laugh I always say this I last so I don't cry and that's how I got into this work really literally was I had been a You know turtle medicine physician for god knows how many years and I was a health insurance executive Which gave me a complete 360 degree total view of the US health care system and how it works Or so I thought until I became a patient and met Mia my hospital roommate who told me she had been tricked into signing a bill Or agreement. I should say to pay a bill That I was pretty sure she didn't oh, but I was definitely sure It was putting her and her family into a lifetime of debt The thing is is that In an emergency situation when you go into an emergency room. No, you don't have to agree. Don't have to sign anything The care has to be provided to you until you are stabilized once you're stabilized They can ship you out to someplace else. They give charity care or free care That kind of thing My point to her was when I was talking with her She was telling me the story about the last time she had been in the hospital the year prior And it was for the same thing she was being worked up something happened They were concerned doing these tests on her and kept her for a week doing all these tests because they were concerned that she was having a rare reaction of rare something and She was telling me that she was really concerned about what this is going to cost this current hospital Because and she told me the story about yeah when this happened to me a year ago One of the hospital representatives came in and said hey before you can leave you need to sign this And she explained well, I had insurance. I don't know what they were asking me to sign and guys as she was telling me the story I realized oh my gosh They tricked her into believing that she had to sign To agree to be balanced build and what that means is that if you have insurance If your provider a hospital in this case is in network with your insurance It means accept your insurance They have to take whatever the insurance pays them for the services that they provide So let's say that the usual care for a service or a service the price for a service that they offer is a hundred dollars But the insurance company says well if you want to be a network with us and have access to our millions hundreds of thousands to millions of patients Then you know you're gonna have to accept this as payment and full and we really pay like $10 for this service So That is a contract with between the provider with the insurance company saying what they're going to take For their members for this particular insurance company as payment in full Balanced billing is going back and saying hey Yeah, you know that services we provided for you. You're insurance only pay $10. We charge a hundred So you owe us $90 They're breaking that agreement right with the insurance company that is essentially contract fraud and because the person who Is egregious the the egregious the party that's been affected Negatively didn't sign a contract with them the patients don't know that hey, this is balance billing This is this is essentially contract fraud between the insurance company and the provider Talk to talk to me about also just medical billing errors and there's I think You said in your book that estimates are that 90% of medical bills contain errors So balance billing is an issue, but so is that and so if if we have insurance Are they finding and pushing back against the the Errant bills that we're getting and how can we find them and contest them if the insurance company isn't doing it for us Well, the insurance company isn't going to know that you're being balanced bill think about it That's why the providers are so ubiquitous and feel comfortable doing it because how is the insurance company going to know that They're their provider that they're a network with balance built the patient right? They're never going to know The insurance company isn't going to see the bill that the providers sent you That's why it's so it's such a ubiquitous problem Yes to answer your question there are studies that say minimum 80% but up to 90% of all Medical bills generated in the United States have errors and if you can imagine guys They're not going to be in the favor of the patient right? They're going to be in the favor of the provider and or the insurance company if you have insurance So yes, it's a real thing, but this is a caveat I say and in my experience what I've seen is that these quote-unquote mistakes aren't really mistakes I'm being generous by calling them mistakes and one of the top five mistakes I talk about is balance billing So the balance billing we just discussed is one of the top five Reasons that 80 to 90% of us have been overcharged with our medical care. So it's not an oops. It's intentional Yeah, so let's say that we call you on it, you know, we get this bill Hey, you owe us $90 for that service that we charge $100 for but your insurance only pays 10 If I call them up and say hey, um, I'm look I got this bill from you guys and I'm looking at this and it says that you're in network with my provider And I call I'm with my insurance company rather I call my insurance company and they say yes, you are in network with them By definition in network means that you'll take whatever they pay as payment and full for the services that you that they cover Okay, so where is this $90 coming from? This is I don't understand and they'll say oh gosh, you know what our mistake just disregard them Yeah, I didn't realize how big of an issue that was balance billing But in your book you talk about some of the other common errors and we're gonna discuss some of the ways that we can discover Those errors and we will we will get all of that right after this break Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and we are the host of stuff. I'm never told you an intersectional feminist podcast about anything and everything from social issues Gender entertainment science fashion and everything in between and we're coming out with a book called stuff I never told you the feminist past present and future. We break down things like the pantsuit revolution the battle of the sexist the civil rights movement disability activism LGBTQ plus rights the Jane collective and so much more including the feminism a fictional woman like Princess Leia and tropes like the final girl Which is one of my very favorite parts You know, I love digging into entertainment and tropes But we also expanded out on that to talk about the power of representation at large Yeah, and you know, I love digging into some of the minute things in history that people don't talk about enough that we need to have more conversations on and hopefully This will start that you can order your copy of stuff on ever told you the feminist past present and future now Where books are sold or get yours at stepheachadreedbooks.com Hello, hello Malcolm global here. This season on revisionist history. We're going to the heart of America's gun violence crisis Six episodes Some weird some whimsical some heartbreaking some angry because so much of what we believe about guns and assault rifles and mass shootings He's actually wrong We're going to talk about TV westerns about a crime in a little town in rural Alabama about the nuttiness of the Supreme Court But the world of trauma surgeons and wonder what would have happened had Bobby Kennedy been shot today and not 50 years ago Join me and the revisionist history team for our six-part chaotic ride to America's gun problem It's our biggest series ever and the one you won't want to miss Listen to revisionist history on the iHeart radio app Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts Do you lay awake scrolling at bedtime or wake in the middle of the night and struggle to fall back to sleep? Start sleeping better tonight. I'm Catherine Nikolai and my podcast nothing much happens bedtime stories to help you sleep Has helped millions of people to get consistent deep sleep I tell family-friendly bedtime stories that train you to drift off and return to sleep quickly And I use a few sleep-inducing techniques along the way that have many users asleep within the first three minutes I hear from listeners every day who have suffered for years with insomnia anxiety at nighttime and just plain old busy brain Who are now getting a full-night sleep every night I call on my 20 years of experience as a yoga and meditation teacher To create a soft landing place where you can feel safe and relaxed and get excellent sleep Listen to nothing much happens bedtime stories to help you sleep with Catherine Nikolai on the iHeart radio app Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts All right, we're back from the break. We're still talking about crushing medical debt How to avoid it with dr. Vergy Ellington and dr. Vergy we're talking about the bill you receive sometimes It's a balanced bill that you should have never received in the first place And so the way to combat that is to call and be like hey call them out on their fake oops, right? But let's talk about some other stuff too like when we get a bill that that we do oh that the insurance doesn't fully cover Well, one how do we know that it it is something that isn't fully taken care by the insurance company that we do actually oh And then how do we get to the bottom of like you talk about medical billing codes and it feels like it's this completely New language that we have to learn if we want to learn how to to fight back against medical bills In general, like how can we know what that system entails and learn how to fight back against it Yeah, so the way to figure this all out and to not have to think oh my gosh what I do now what I do What what what do I do and not get overwhelmed is just understand there's only one right way to pay any medical bill And it involves three simple steps step one The key is CPT codes CPT codes are two medical services what barcodes are two products in a retail store So every medical service you can think of getting in the United States has its own unique CPT code so every test every Operation procedure outpatient doctor visit anything you can think of has its own unique CPT codes And that is the currency that is saying okay This is the service that was provided. This is the common language between providers and payers So if you want to make sure that you're not getting overcharged Get the CPT codes meaning call the provider and ask for a real bill with quote-unquote CPT codes and that's is that typically known as the itemized bill as well So that's the the language is played with it's a game so an itemized bill they'll say yeah sure I'll send you an item We'll send you an itemized bill and it'll have all kinds of details of the things that they are they're charging you for the services You received but they don't have any CPT codes assigned to them CPT codes are usually about are usually five digits and at the top of every bill if you scan it And it doesn't have something at the top that says CPT or CPT slash Hicks picks HCPCS, which is a subtype of CPT code Then it's not a real bill there is no Insurance organization company in the country period that will accept a bill that doesn't have CPT codes Fly to providers send insurance companies different bills then they send patients 99. I'd say nine times out of 10 there are some hospitals that will send A real bill the first time without having to call back and request one But if you call this and you need an itemized bill they'll say yeah sure and it makes them very happy They'll send you a very long list of something that even says they'll have codes at the top or service codes at the top And it means nothing guys. It's language that's internal to that organization or to that medical system It is not a CPT code That is the common language that the providers and payers in the United States speak for paying for medical care Okay, so once we have those CPT codes for a lot of people it's going to feel like reading Latin going back to high school Looking at a dead language sort of thing So so what do we what do we do with that information once we have it in hand? So yeah, now you finally have your bill the real bill that has CPT codes and step two You're going to take each of those codes and you're going to Google what Medicare pays for each of those services here Actually, while you're Google you're doing two things You're going to plug in and let's use an example. I like to use a lot CPT 99213 and that describes a type of outpatient office visit You plug that in you do an internet search Google it and up will pop Some descriptions of that code and what you're doing is basically just making sure it sounds roughly like the services You believe that you were provider that you were told by your physician that you were provided Great and while you're there you're going to find what Medicare pays for that CPT code for each CPT code for which you're being charged Now Medicare the the reaction I get Joel and Matt often is that people say well Medicare That's for old people that has nothing to do with me And I say well yeah does because Medicare is the lowest most fair retail price that is paid for medical services in the United States period So that's the number you're looking for that's the fair retail price you're looking to pay That's the price that shows you're not being overcharged Overcharged you're upcharged for instance Let's say you know god forbid you had to go into the emergency room You're away a couple hours away skiing and you you fell broke your arm Go to the nearest emergency room and they're like you know what they did the x-rays You're going to need this set surgically we'll call the orthopedist closer to your home you can go home Just put you in a sling here until you can have surgery tomorrow or the day after near your home with a provider Near your home who's in network with your insurance if you have insurance So you go you go home you get the surgery at the orthopedist closest to your home and a month later you get a bill And you from the emergency room Right when you're on vacation and you look at you're like well Well, no, there's no CPT codes here So you call you finally get a real bill that has CPT codes and you plug them in and one of the CPT codes says humoral fracture intervention So it sounds like well, I don't know what humor is this but fracture it sounds like something broken Okay, but intervention Well, all he did was put it in a sling No, they didn't do an intervention That's an upcharge There's a CPT code I'm sure for a sling if they're going to charge you for that But they need to delineate that in the CPT codes. They should not charge you for fracture intervention The intervention you had was at your home It was not in the emergency room So that is getting upcharged that's why you're going to take and step two Those CPT codes you work so hard to get in step one Google them don't internet search find out what descriptions come up Make sure it sounds roughly like the services you had to make sure you're not getting double build or upcharged And while you're there find out what the lowest Most fair retail price for that medical service. Okay, so then you've got the procedure You've got the price step three just basically saying hey This is what I would like to pay. Yep, Matt and Joel you guys are always going ahead You got it step three is calling back the provider and saying hey Yeah, you know that emergency her and your surgery I had last month and um I just got a bill that the first bill you guys sent was like $10,000 But in my case I am willing And able to pay three thousand dollars and you don't you're not going to share this with you don't have to share this with Miss none of their business and they don't really care But Three thousand dollars is the price that you may have come up with when you've done the three steps against that medical bill Medicare pays three thousand dollars for the services you were built ten thousand dollars for In the initial bill that was not a real bill and you're gonna say you know what Yeah, I can pay three thousand dollars and you know what that was an emergency nobody's prepared for an emergency I can only look I try you can't get blood out of a stone I've tried to turn my budget up every which way I can only get fifty dollars a month out of my budget to pay this Who can I speak with who can help me set up an interest free payment plan For this fifty dollars a month for this three thousand dollars that I'm willing and able to pay So met and Joel people often often when I get to this point When I share the example of the three steps they'll say well Three thousand dollars fifty dollars a month. Oh my gosh even if they would accept that number It's gonna take you forever it would take you forever to pay that Okay, so it'll take you 60 months five years half a decade and The reason why they're going to accept it It doesn't matter how long it's gonna take that's what's in your budget And that's what you're gonna stick to you're gonna stick to your guns and the reason why Even though you're gonna get pushed back they've been trying to say hey, you know We took care of you and or your loved ones during this tough time and saved her life Yeah, you're gonna get your money Yeah, guys, you'll get your money. I just want to pay what I owe And this is what I can pay you and they don't have to chase you it costs some money to chase you That's the burden they know they're saving money That's why they're going to accept You're being proactive they don't have to chase you And frankly they know that their bills are not real bills to start with that was a fake number to start with And if they have to turn it over to collections they're gonna get pennies on the dollar It's not exactly it's not gonna be work their time probably right so you hit it right on the head Well, okay, I want to ask you this dr. Vergey because you reference somebody who even with like let's say a bill of $3,000. Hey, I don't have the money to pay and it's gonna take me forever We can do a payment plan or something like that But maybe that's not even the place they need to go because what about what about qualifying for our financial assistance? It seems like from what I've read something like 30 to 40% of Americans Given their income and their family size could qualify will qualify for financial resistance Either a greatly reduced overall bill amount or for it to be completely forgiven. Is that true? Yes, sir He got it. It's true. So my federal law all nonprofit institutions hospital medical service Facilities medical care facilities have to offer To the folks in the communities in which they operate sliding scale income based discounts in exchange For not paying any money in taxes not paying a dime in taxes for the hundreds of up to you know Hundreds of millions of dollars of revenue So that's a big deal by federal law. Yes, they must if they're a nonprofit facility and in the last numbers I saw about 60 65% of Hospitals medical care facilities in the United States are nonprofits. So yes by federal law they have to offer that This is the thing don't think that just because you have a high income That you won't qualify So I actually had a case where the person had a really high income like I think her gross income salary was a hundred fifty thousand dollars a year But her medical bill was so large. I think it was like ten thousand dollars According to their formula for this facility. It was it happened to be an academic facility Which are by definitely usually I'd say nine plus out of times out of ten their nonprofit this particular facility Ten thousand dollars a hundred fifty thousand dollar gross salary That sliding scale income based discount White the whole bill away Very nice, but you said they're not always going to tell you that up front, right? So you either have to like ask hey, what is your financial assistance policy exactly guys? They're so sharp So by law there's a law that says they're supposed to post their practices for offering A financial aid application you can call whatever you call you know Whatever name you want to call it financial aid financial assistance charity care whatever you want to call it They have to offer everyone an application to apply for sliding scale income based discounts and so people think again Oh, I make too much money and well, I went to this other hospital cross town and I didn't qualify Every hospital actually nonprofit facility even in the same town have different formulas. So always always ask So someone brought this up Instead of doing the three steps Just ask for a Slighting scale income based application asked for financial aid assistance application This is the problem if you do the math if you're saying about 30 to 40 percent of Medical services meaning medical bills you're going to get in this country Qualify for required financial aid required financial federal financial aid by the government So that means that 60% 70 to 70 percent of the medical bills generating this night in the United States Do not qualify for required financial aid so you you want to do both So what I usually do is in those cases If you know that you went to a facility that As a nonprofit facility or an academic facility ask call their billing office and ask for a financial aid Application once you get the bill Then you can find out what you owe if you Have the whole thing wiped away. They don't have to bother to apply the three steps But if there's any money left over or they don't offer financial aid or you don't qualify Then you know the three steps to make sure that you are getting The you're not I should say getting overcharged. You're getting the right bill. It's a it's a multi-pronged approach And I think that that's a great way to think about it But once you do I mean what what you're talking about there once you get the bill Let's say if you've kind of passed the stage where you can apply for that financial assistance What you're talking about there is negotiating for it and one of the things that you talk about in your book to aid Within that discussion that negotiation is what you call a quote-unquote battle journal Which sounds really intense, but I feel like it also doesn't have to be the super confrontational thing It can even just like basically what you're doing is you're just trying to provide some organization to your thoughts You're trying to provide some organization to Discussions that you've had who you've talked to what date you had that discussion what it is that you've learned Uh, I guess I'm kind of explaining why that's Why that's important as well But yeah, I mean why why else do you need to have a record of some of your conversations? Yeah, people think that negotiating And while something that's aggressive or that you have to know fancy words or know fancy medical terms Or be really really smart No, when you're doing the three steps you're automatically negotiating You're just it's just a very matter of fact you're just going through this step so when you call them you get the third step You're negotiating yeah, you don't even realize you're doing it you don't realize that hey I have this hard number here. They're like okay $50 is gonna take us forever to get our money. Can you do a hundred? No No, you can't and let me tell you why you're gonna stand your ground again If you agreed to a hundred you're like okay, maybe I can squeeze and stretch to a hundred if you have a bad month And you can't make that hundred dollar payment that you agreed to They can send you to collections right away So stick to your guns whatever your number that you come up with you have to stick to it So that's why you want to use a battle journal and I felt kind of bad to your guys's point I can feel kind of bad calling it a battle journal But that's what it is. It's kind of like armor for you because you are documenting every Discussion you have with them And unfortunately if something happens and they try to take you to collections and you to collections or or guy for a bit even worse You know bring a claim against you and court You have documentation of who you spoke with and what was said Okay, I want to ask you about Best payment method so for instance Let's say you come to a agreement you say all right I got the CPT codes I push back and now that now the true bill instead of $10,000 is $1800 and I don't qualify for financial assistance So I've got to pay it But I also don't have $1800 some people will just put it on the credit card to to be done with it paying interest for months and months and maybe even years to come Really harming their personal finances and in their future So how should people pay how do you agree to pay the hospital when there is a certain amount You owe and you feel comfortable now with the final bill How do you proceed? Yes, you do not want to put it on a credit card no matter what and that's because once you put it on a credit card a medical bill on a credit card You automatically obliterate all of the federal protections federal law legal protections that you have to have Medical debt not show up on your FICO score So when you make an agreement a payment plan directly with the facility I call it You know dancing with the ones that brought you to the party keep your medical bill with the people that provided their service You want to do that because medical bill payments or payment plans I should say that are made directly with the provider don't show up on your FICO score And to your earlier point. Yes, the second issue is once you put something in a credit card If you can't make pay it all off the interest rates in and by the way medical or they call them care Credit cards are the same thing they say although we charge you zero interest for two years I think I saw one last year that has like three Years of zero percent interest if you make the payments and pay it all off Well, what if you can't do something happens and you can't There you go and those interest rates rack up fast Know that makes sense. Okay. Well, that's great advice We've got a few more questions we want to get to with with you doctor virgin Including kind of where we go for help if we're stone walled with with the bureaucracy at a hospital or a medical facility We'll get to questions about that with you right after this Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and we are the host of stuff. I'm never told you an intersectional feminist podcast About anything and everything from social issues gender entertainment science fashion and everything in between And we're coming out with a book called stuff. I never told you the feminist past present and future We break down things like the pantsuit revolution the battle of the sexes the civil rights movement disability activism LGBTQ plus rights the Jane collective and so much more including the feminism a fictional woman like princess Leia and tropes like the final girl Which is one of my very favorite parts You know, I love digging into entertainment and tropes But we also expanded out on that to talk about the power of representation at large Yeah, and you know, I love digging into some of the minute things in history that people don't talk about enough That we need to have more conversations on and hopefully this will start that you can order your copy if step on ever told you The feminist past present and future now where books are sold or get yours at stephushedreadbooks.com Do you lay awake scrolling at bedtime or wake in the middle of the night and struggle to fall back to sleep Start sleeping better tonight I'm Catherine Nikolai and my podcast nothing much happens bedtime stories to help you sleep Has helped millions of people to get consistent deep sleep I tell family friendly bedtime stories that train you to drift off and return to sleep quickly And I use a few sleep inducing techniques along the way that have many users asleep within the first three minutes I hear from listeners every day who have suffered for years with insomnia anxiety at nighttime and just plain old busy brain Who are now getting a full night's sleep every night I call on my 20 years of experience as a yoga and meditation teacher To create a soft landing place where you can feel safe and relaxed and get excellent sleep Listen to nothing much happens bedtime stories to help you sleep with Catherine Nikolai On the iHeart radio app apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast Hello, hello Malcolm Gladwell here. This season on revisionist history. We're going to the heart of America's gun violence crisis Six episodes Some weird some whimsical some heartbreaking some angry Because so much of what we believe about guns and assault rifles and mass shootings He's actually wrong We're going to talk about TV westerns about a crime in a little town in rural Alabama About the nuttiness of the Supreme Court But the world of trauma surgeons and wonder what would have happened had Bobby Kennedy been shot today And now 50 years ago Join me and the revisionist history team for our six-part chaotic ride to America's gun problem It's our biggest series ever and one you won't want to miss You Listen to revisionist history on the iHeart radio app apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast We are back. We're talking with Dr. Virgil on how to Avoid this crushing medical debt and before the breakjole alluded to this But are there any Government or non-profit agencies that can help if we feel like we're we're being given the run around it If it doesn't feel like that we're being given the right information what can what can we do about it So if you received your care at a non-profit hospital there is a non-profit organization called dollar four D-O-L-L-A-R-F-O-R dot org and they will help you work through The process of appealing essentially the decisions by this facility to not Cover you lower your bill or they say that the care is This price and not the price that you in your research applying the three steps discovered with you know the Medicare fair retail price So that's one organization. Okay. They're the organization that I always refer folks to that's also a non-profit Will help you with all medical bills. It doesn't matter if it was with a non-profit hospital And that's called the patient advocate Foundation and that's patient advocate That org and the reason why I recommend them is because basically they do almost everything to everything I'm other than up to not including Going with you and representing you in court if you get taken to court by these unscrupulous over-aggressive predatory providers Now there are some for-profit companies that will do this they'll help negotiate bills down And in exchange they take 10% usually is the going number of the amount that they save you So I saw one case where the Insurance company refused to pay the $80,000 NICU bill for twins Because in their records they said it was not an emergency Well, when is babies being born ever not an emergency like they come right and they were sick They needed to go to a NICU So how was that how was that elective right right so anyway the point is the Couple tried to go for months in between the providers and the insurance company and just the Conversation and the information and medical writers weren't getting passed along So they got tired. It's a war of attrition guys. That's why I called a battle journal It's real. It's really a war They just wore them down and so they finally went to a for-profit company that helps resolve these issues And so instead of paying $80,000 they paid $8,000 to the company that negotiated the bill down Okay, yeah, I see some of these popping up and it seems like for the person who's gotten weary Finding that bill it might be a decent kind of last solution right and I I really Disagree now if you're really chronically and he has some really big major Medical issues and hospitalizations prolonged and multiple Okay, yeah, but then I would recommend hey reach out to just try the patient advocate foundation first But the first thing I want everybody to know is that a lot of this foolishness can be just be just Not become a non-issue if you just supply the three steps. Yeah, okay Say that $8,000 $8,000. Oh, this goes a long way to a college fund starting a college fund for twins, right? That's a lot of money, too, and we don't we don't want any how to money listeners paying any Dollars more than they have to you don't oh, that's my point if you don't know it no Are you mentioned at the very beginning of your book you say that a portion of the sales proceeds go to this non-profit called RIP medical debt, which Matt and I we've heard of they have what I think they've eradicated over a billion dollars maybe That was last year just in less than a year guys they've gone from over a billion dollars to over a seven billion with a B dollars And medical bills are eradicated for folks Facing bankruptcy from these medical bills and these are all right These are all medical bills that have gone to collections and then and then RIP medical debt is saying listen for pennies on the dollar We're going to eradicate this on behalf of people So it feels like it should be something that's unnecessary in a country like ours But sadly, it's necessary But I'm also I think it's great that what you're doing with part of the proceeds of your book is is going to help ensure that their work continues to You know continue continues to make waves out in the world So for every book that sold one dollar goes to our IP medical debt, which eradicates a hundred dollars And medical bills for someone facing bankruptcy from bills medical bills that have gone to collections Very cool. We love that. We love that that that is a part of your mission Dr. Vergie And we haven't even gotten to everything obviously that you cover in your book right and so we will link to Where it is that folks can purchase your book and actually can you tell us where it is that folks can learn more about you Sure, well first why don't you just like have me come back? What's just We can all do that That sounds good if you want to find out more crush medical debt Dot com is the place to start and I like to send people to Crush medical debt dot com slash free Dash resources are just go to crush medical debt dot com and the free resources as on the top of the nav bar there And the reason is I've direct folks there because that's where you can find a refresher A checklist of the three steps of the only right way to pay every medical bill so You know some people say you know what I really don't even want to spend money on a book. I just things are just so tight I just know So go to crush medical debt dot com get this information for free the three steps of the only right way to pay a medical bill And I'd say eight to nine times out of ten you just eradicate the foolishness that unfortunately Predatory billing tries to inflict on folks and make us victims of the system Dr. Virgie we love what you're doing out there you're making a difference and thank you so much for for joining us on the show today Oh my gosh. Thank you for having me guys. I love talking with you and thank you for what you guys do You're doing awesome stuff helping folks master their money. Oh, well, thank you like we're you're kind similar missions I think like mine did for sure. Yeah, I'm usual admiration society Awesome. Well, thanks again. Are you take care guys? Ah Matt always good to have a swell conversation There's so much so much nuance in this topic of pushing back against you know unethical medical billing Sure is one thing or maybe just air an error prone industry as on top of that and there's there's a lot We need to know as individuals to to fight back. She mentioned how they never make mistakes in your favor He's in that amazing. So if you are out there and you're thinking Oh, I don't think I want to check in because what if I'm actually going to owe the more money that's highly highly unlikely It's never like that community chest I'm a monopoly right bank error in your favor 150 bucks is not going to happen. No, but yeah, what was your big takeaway from our conversation with Dr. Vergie Okay, I think my big takeaway was to to use technology to your advantage And she was talking about well one just pushing back getting those those CPT codes, but on top of that she was saying Use Google right and Google can help you not only figure out what those codes mean because it's like a foreign language But on top of that you can figure out what is Medicare pay the these medical facilities right for those codes for those services and Without the internet and Google at your service man. This I'm just must have been so much harder Back in the day. I think it was probably impossible. Yeah. Yeah, so it's nice back in the day Nice to know that you got technology on your side. There's a lot of information out there It's not it's not necessarily right there in front of your face. You have to dig a little bit But a little bit of digging can save you a lot Yeah, absolutely and that's important for information to know and you so you were talking about Figuring out what it is that Medicare pays So I guess my big takeaway is going to be related to that because Obviously, it's not that you're trying to get out from paying a bill where a hospital or a doctor took care of you and provided you a good service You just want to in what she said when I wrote this down But you want to be able to pay the fair retail value and you know what if the government if they're the one saying that Oh, this is a fair price. Well, I want that to be a fair price for me as well I don't have to pay some marked up right And so it's not that you're trying to pull one on the hospital or the doctor or the clinic or wherever it It's just about making sure that you're not getting ripped off And so I guess it's not just about having the tools and using the technology and figuring out the CPT codes But it's not not GPT by the way, no, we're not talking about chat chat CPT. So somebody should make a tool That's chat CPT. Oh my guess is where AI could help you push back on some of this yeah I bet so Yeah, so it's not just about the tools It's also the mindset and how it is that you are looking to approach some of these conversations and some of these negotiations because if you are Of not afraid, but if you're kind of timid about how it is you're Talking to these medical providers. You may not negotiate as well If you're if you're thinking well, they did fix me. Yeah, you might think oh, I got good service the doctors of the nurses were great Like I guess I have to pay what I know, but you should as opposed to divorce those two things be thankful for the great service But then push back against the bill that's out of line and there are you know specific lines in the sand that you can draw Based on the information you can get from the internet from just a little bit of research So you don't have to feel bad pushing back especially because these nonprofit hospitals in particular have A lot of discretion have a lot of ability thought for forgiveness and actually legally are required to so yeah Well, she was saying that that's another great point with that I guess I'd never really thought about it But that they are required to offer with the income-based repayment plan. Oh my gosh That's also some excellent information to have on hand like these are all things that should help you to think oh no I I don't want to say that you are owed a discount or that you deserve a discount But that is 100% an option. Yeah, especially if you're like wait a minute I get taxed on what I earn the hospital doesn't well, so thanks for saying a little bit I've done this before too and before I knew that this is the reason why it was forgiving Just because I want to save money like pay less money I was like naive, but just kind of persistent and and having looked back on those days like man It's just interesting I've probably paid other medical bills that I didn't need to and I don't want other people to go through that I want people to be able to know their rights know how they can push back and get their bills either reduced or forgiven And fight back against a system that is is really seeking to part them from their money Yeah, to feel empowered and motivated to do it as well. Yeah, that's right man All right the beer that you and I we both each enjoyed a Passo Fino Porter. This is a beer by horse fly brewing company out of Montrose is it Montrose? I don't know. It's one word, but it's mo. It's Montrose, but just one word Colorado, but this is a beer from Mark and Caitlin and so so they actually live in North Carolina and they embarked on this He said 8600 mile road trip that included a couple days nice I guess out of a favorite spot on every road trip needs to involve a craft brewery or it's not officially road trip Yeah, sorry. You just drove your car around the country, right? It's true. You got to have disc golf. I think and craft beer involves, but yeah, big thanks to him taken That's uh, yeah, that's gonna be interesting Mark and Caitlin big thanks to y'all and yeah, this beer was it reminded me of like a they get a semi sweet chocolate chip Where it was a little bit bitter a little bit sweet and not too heavy, right? So I I love a good porter and not too heavy Yeah, which is kind of exactly what you want on a warmer summer day like we're experiencing now, right? So you get that it's not stout weather yet. No. Yeah, but we can do porters if you want some of that roasty flavor Then that's when you should be looking to something like a porter Where you got this darker flavors without the body that weighs you down that feels like it should you know It's almost like a blanket you want a nice heavy blanket in the winter That's also how I feel about bigger stouts if you do what some of that flavor here in these warmer months That's when you offer that porter. Yeah, the big stouts are December through February. Yeah, that's what that's absolutely Yeah, but then again, you know, we'll probably end up with us some giant stout in like two weeks while it's still warm You never know we are equal opportunity drinkers But that'll be the that'll be it for this episode We'll have links to some of the the free resources that Dr. Berge mentioned up in our show notes at how to money.com And a link to her book to so you can check that out Yeah, specifically the patient advocate dot or that sounded like an incredible incredible size for sure You can find all that up there, but buddy. That's going to be it for this one. So until next time best friends out best friends out What's up? This is Chris Rootiger. I am the owner and co-founder of the six one five house and you're listening to my new podcasts the six one five house podcast It's a chance to take a deep dive with some of Nashville's hottest artists as we learn their stories And I try to keep the questions pretty spicy as these artists sit in the hot seat hang out with us as we talk to some of your favorite artists here on the six one five house podcasts Listen to the six one five house podcast on the iHeart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get podcasts The last archive is a show about the history of truth in America each episode We tell a story about people coming up with some new way of understanding the world Histories of science technology democracy this season. We've got stories on everything from mid-century songwriting machines to social network theory And plenty of mad inventors Of course I go. Oh my god. Well, it's Dr. Frankenstein's monster isn't it? Listen to the last archive on the iHeart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and we are the host of stuff mom never told you a podcast about intersectional feminism and all the way It impacts all of us and now we're coming out with a book that takes an even deeper look at some of the topics important to us We dig into people leading movements like civil rights and the jane collective and we discuss by fictional characters like princess And tropes like the final girl are powerful and so much more order your copy today of stuff Mom never told you the feminist past present and future where books are sold or get yours at stuff. You should read books.com