Life After Financial Independence w/ The Mad Fientist #673

Hi, I'm David Eagleman. I have a new podcast called Inner Cosmos on iHeart. I'm going to explore the relationship between our brains and our experiences by tackling unusual questions, like, can we create new senses for humans? So join me weekly to uncover how your brain steers your behavior, your perception, and your reality. Listen to Inner Cosmos with David Eagleman. On the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Last season, millions tuned into the betrayal podcast to hear a shocking story of deception. I'm Andrea Gunning, and now we're sharing an all-new story of betrayal. Ashley Litten was helping her husband set up a business Venmo account when she discovered a terrible secret. I saw a hidden folder, and I opened it. What the hell did I just see? Listen to season two of betrayal on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On Queen Charlotte, the official podcast, we're stepping behind the scenes and the drawing boards of this team to experience the life breathed into the Bridgerton prequel. Listen to the leaps executive producer and series director Tom Barrica took to capture the feeling that puts that lump in your throat. And you've got to catch creator Shonda Rhimes. She's dropping gems, diamonds, and mics. You can listen to Queen Charlotte, the official podcast, every Thursday, on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or anywhere you listen to your favorite shows. Welcome to How to Money. I'm Joel, and I am Matt, and today we're talking life after financial independence with the Matt scientist. That's right, we are actually talking with Brandon Ganch, also known as the Matt scientist. And you might already notice that it sounds a little bit different than it typically does when we record How to Money episode. This is because we are doing a field recording. We are actually in Scotland. Joel and I, we took a trip with our wives, and we happened to find our way down where it is that Brandon lives with his wife and his new son. So first of all, Brandon, he's originally a programmer. He is a music producer. He creates his own music. He is a blogger. He's a podcaster. And we're going to talk about all of the things that he is up to. This is going to be maybe a little more of a non-traditional episode here for How to Money, but we wanted to be able to bring something fun and interesting to all of you folks out there. So Brandon, thank you so much for joining us today on the podcast. Thank you guys for coming all the way to Scotland. It's not often that people make their way all the way out to where we are. So I appreciate you guys coming by. Oh my goodness. We wanted to come to Scotland, one to hang out with you, two to drink scotch, and three to enjoy the scenery. But our first question to every guest we have on the show, Brandon, is as you know, what is your craft beer equivalent? Matt and I love craft beer. And we spend way too much money on it while we're saving and investing wisely for the future. So what is that expense in your life? So it used to be craft beer. I am also, and that's how we met and how we formed our close friendship is that we do have a very similar appreciation of craft beer. So it used to be that. But nine months ago, we had a son and now I can drink maybe half a craft beer before I want to fall asleep. So our craft beer consumption has drastically declined just because we can't stay awake long enough to enjoy it properly. But now it seems to be synthesizers, which actually this year I haven't spent too much on synthesizers today. This year was mostly buying a house, which we haven't owned a house for almost 10 years. And now that we have a son, our jet setting lifestyle is over for the time being, which I'm perfectly happy with. So yeah, this year has been house, but in the past few years, it's been synthesizers, which you are now surrounded by in this makeshift studio that I just set up for you guys. Yeah, there are multiple MOOC since sitting here. Honestly, I wish I knew more about them, but maybe we'll talk a little bit more about that after. Hey, we can fire them up and we can have 45 minutes of just weird bleeps and bloops. And you'll think R2D2s are two D2s in the room, but yeah, we could do that if you want. Just love you. I love it. I love it. All right, Brandon. So first of all, honestly, I'm not totally sure of your your financial history. I would love to know how it is that you got to learn about basically how to handle your own money. Was this something that y'all talked about within your own household? Was this something that you formally learned? Or was it something? Yeah, maybe that you figured out on your own. Yeah, I don't know where it came from, but I loved money ever since I was a kid. My parents have stories of, you know, throwing quarters into the deep end of the pool. And as soon as I found one, then I would spend like five hours searching the deep end of the pool to find them. And then my grandma actually was like, yeah, you you went home after that night and you called back and said, did anyone find any more money in the pool? So I really don't understand where it comes from, but I always loved money. And then as I got older, I loved math. And I appreciated the fact that, hey, you could invest this money and then it would grow. So my dad bought me five stock certificates back when they actually had them on paper. And so I would look in the newspaper to see how my stocks were doing. And you know, this was back in the days where it was like 55 and 1 eighth and all this sort of stuff. And I'd look and I'd be like, oh, that's good. It was it was 55 yesterday. So this is I'm making money. So I don't know, because my brother is he's good with money, but he's not obsessed with money like I was. So I think there's some innate money loving in my life. But yeah, I guess the fact that I do love math and I can appreciate even though I can't like fully comprehend like compound interests, like it's it's still a difficult thing to like visualize and imagine. But I think I appreciated it more than the average person, I guess. It's so funny, because I feel like my fascination with money or the way I started off was so much more emotional than mathematical. My parents not handling money terribly well. And it becoming just like this, this thing in our family that and me at a particular age, where I was more susceptible to feeling a different sense of what was happening in our family than my younger sister, who was too young to understand my older sister, who was kind of in high school, hanging out with boys. And I'm in this middle school Joel, who is particularly vulnerable to kind of what's going on with the family finances. So I'm curious and so much of your content on mad scientists on your website has really revolved around a lot of the mathematics around money. The way you write about kind of handling taxes and retirement accounts, you've really you really dove into the weeds. And I feel like when you started, there was no other source on the web talking about money, really in such like an approachable, but also nuanced away. So kind of what made you dive so deeply into how to handle money from like a financial independence perspective? Yeah, I think that's a really good point because I guess it was my age, maybe when my parents got divorced and then it was mainly my mom raised in two boys and you know, money was always tight and we it was always a focus and it was never to be wasted. And maybe, maybe I never really thought about it like that, but I think that's a really good point. Like my age at that time really understood that, whereas maybe my brother was like, oh, everything's fine. We have everything we need. And we always did have everything we needed. And I never felt like we were wanting for anything, but I also realized how important it was to not waste the money. So I think I think that's a really good point because I think one, my age at the time of the divorce and maybe going off and being raised by my mom predominantly allowed me to appreciate money, but then also as a kindergartner having a divorce and being like feeling like you're sort of out of control, then the math, math doesn't lie. And you can plan, you know, you can plan really nicely and like the math doesn't lie if you follow these steps and you add that much and it's going to grow at this much, then that works. So I think maybe that's what could have driven the later stuff, the like the actual MadVinta stuff. It's like, okay, I have this control over my life. And maybe as a kid, I didn't feel like I had that control. Yeah, that's really deep. Maybe we've maybe we've broken through some here and I can understand myself a little better. Choles might might be taken to a leaf out of his wife's book when it comes to counseling. But I think that's that's so true. We talk about the different ways that we seek to create control or, you know, we try to create order within our lives and just the world, it seems like a very chaotic place. And so if there's a way that you can basically put your finger on it, I completely understand the desire from an analytical standpoint to control something and to understand how it is or something works where it feels like it's not just completely going off the rails. But so for you, that was certainly a personal sort of way that you saw that manifest in your in your life. How is it that you came about actually then publicly writing about personal finances and specifically, I guess, launching the MadVinta's blog? Yeah, well, that was that was the really exciting thing. So, so yeah, you have to go back. I'm in my late 20s. My 20s, I had all these big plans, like, this is how I was going to live my life and I was going to create all these amazing things. And I was really excited about it. And then the 20s just grind it on. And then when I turned 30, I had this meltdown. It was like a middle life crisis. But when I was 30, it was very embarrassing, which it's a funny story now, but it was super embarrassing at the time. We went up to JP Vermont. I had, I don't know, like eight, six or eight friends that we went skiing. We had a great day skiing. I turned 30. And I was like, what have I done with my life? I've done nothing. Jill, my now wife was a girlfriend at the time, took that personally. Like, what do you mean? You've done nothing like we've built this amazing life together. I've like, I've done nothing. I had this. It was embarrassing. Everyone went to bed sad. And we after this great day of skiing. And but it was because I felt like that because I hadn't accomplished anything that I thought I would want to accomplish. I hadn't built anything I wanted to build. I overanalyzed everything that I wanted to do. I would just overanalyze it to death until I thought it was a stupid idea. And that's, I created the Mad Scientist a few days later because I was like, I'm so excited about this idea of financial independence because I got introduced by financial independence through Get Rich Slowly, which those three words are exactly what I wanted to do. I was like, yeah, I just want to get rich slowly. Like, I don't want to live a flashy lifestyle or anything. I just want to get rich slowly. I want to be comfortable. I want to be secure. I want to be able to do what I want because throughout my life, I've always felt like I've known best. And like I mentioned earlier, like I do like control and I like, I've thought about things more than the average person. So like taking instructions from a boss that I didn't feel like they understood everything was very hard for me. So like, I wanted to get to a place where I could call the shots and be secure and all of that thing. So, so when I found Get Rich Slowly, I was like, yeah, that's exactly what I would do. I want to do it properly. I don't want to just do the next fad. I just want to get rich slowly. And then he interviewed Jacob Lundfisker and Jacob had written a book called Early Retirement Extreme. And he laid out the math and it was just so simple. But I never thought of it in that way before. And it was just, okay, yeah, you can stop working. Retirement's not an age. It's a time when your assets are a certain multiple of your expenses. And that changed everything because I was like, all right, here we go. That's simple math. I love math. I can understand that. And yeah, it's not this dream destination when you hit 60. It's actually just a function of your spending. And my spending can be reduced and my income can be increased. And it was the thing that I was most excited about at that time. So I turned 30 in 2012, January, and I launched the Metphineas, like, I think February 2nd of 2012. Because I was like, I could overanalyze this to death. I could start an LLC when I don't need one. I can worry about the legal ramifications of giving financial and financial advice on the internet. All these things that don't matter because I have no readers, or I could just start it because my 20s were all of that stuff. So I just started it. I asked Mr. Money Mustache to be my first guest on my podcast because he was a software developer like me, had no idea how big he was or how big he would become. And yeah, just went from there. So it was a lot of luck for timing-wise. But it was also just me reaching the end of the rope of overanalyzing things to death. I just needed to take action. That's funny. When you were talking about your goal behind financial independence, not to become super wealthy or anything like that, it made me think of our friends, Julian and Kirsten, who do rich and regular. And I love those three words in tandem, rich and regular. And that is the aspiration that Matt and I have as well. It's wealthy over a long period of time. It is nothing flashy. It is... I really old, pretty ugly minivans. And people assume when we drive around town, oh, like that person doesn't have any money. So talk to me though about that because wealth can, I think, have a certain flash. You can show it off. There are ways to make people understand that you are a person of means. Why was that never anything that you aspired to when you kind of figure out what money can do, what money can be. How come that was never one of the goals of money for you? That was the luckiest thing I think about my journey. It was the fact that not only was that not important to me, but it was actually the reverse. Like I wanted to downplay it. I still wanted to downplay it. You guys are sitting in the brand new house that we bought and it is grander and flashier than anything I've ever purchased in my life. And I still feel very weird about it. Not to say I'm not happy. I love it. I love everything about it. But it is... I would be more comfortable if it was less grand and less... I don't know. It just stands out a little bit too much, but the real estate market is crazy. And this was the absolutely the best thing that we've seen on the market. So I'm so happy that we got it and I'm absolutely thrilled about it. But yeah, I don't know where that comes from. I think it's... My grandparents struggled and they had three kids and all they had four kids and they had a bunch of foster kids and they were always like... Every penny was to be looked after and not to be wasted in the same with my upbringing. So it's like... And all my friends and every... No, I don't have rich friends. I don't have rich tastes. Yes, I love going to a really fancy restaurant once in a while for a treat, but I'd be much more comfortable getting a really good burger and stuff like that. So it's like... My identity is so tied to middle class that the fact that the money in the bank isn't that anymore is very hard to come to terms with because money is really useful. This house in particular is like testament to that. Using money to buy nice things is really actually good. And for my entire life, I've always kept myself from doing that because I was saving and saving and saving to get to financial independence. But now that we've been here for the last six years and the portfolio has grown even despite just using it, it's like, okay, this is going to snowball out of control because compound interest is actually a really powerful thing. So we got to start spending it and every single change we've made so far, except maybe a business class flight, that wasn't worth the extra money or the extra miles. I couldn't use money. I used miles, but it wasn't worth the extra miles. But every other thing that we've pushed ourselves to spend a little bit more has been worth it. So for someone who's super naturally frugal has a blog about frugality and saving a bunch of money, I'm surprised over the last two years that I've let myself relax a little bit how much fun spending is. So it's weird to be talking about that because as a frugality blogger, but it's been so much fun. Money has been more fun to spend than it has been to save recently, but it's only because I know that I'm not making a huge dent into that portfolio. So I think that may be the difference. It's like, yeah, spending when I didn't have a lot now to stress me out because I wasn't saving. But now that I know that we're set, it has been nice to just relax a little bit, which is a huge surprise. You're talking about lifestyle and how it is that you're spending money. And it's funny that you consider, I mean, you mentioned like a frugality blogger when it seems like so much of what you honestly what you specialize in and what I think folks go to you for is the number crunching. It's more of the analytical side of things. But I actually, I do have a quick follow up about consumption and spending. And we're going to talk a little bit about fire, financial independence, retiring early and we'll get to some of those questions right after this break. Hi, I'm David Eagleman. I have a new podcast called Inner Cosmos on iHeart. I'm a neuroscientist and an author at Stanford University and I've spent my career exploring the three pound universe in our heads. On my new podcast, I'm going to explore the relationship between our brains and our experiences by tackling unusual questions so we can better understand our lives and our realities. Like, does time really run in slow motion when you're in a car accident? Or can we create new senses for humans? Or what does dreaming have to do with the rotation of the planet? So join me weekly to uncover how your brain steers your behavior, your perception, and your reality. Listen to Inner Cosmos with David Eagleman on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Last season, millions tuned into the betrayal podcast to hear a shocking story of deception. I'm Andrea Gunning and now we're sharing an all-new story of betrayal. Ashley Litten was helping her husband set up a business fan mail account when she discovered a terrible secret. I scrolled down and that's when I saw a hidden folder and I opened it. What the hell did I just see? I was scared that he was coming home. What Ashley discovered that day was a secret so dark she feared for her life. She was like, oh my god, I gotta get out of the house. He's gonna find out that I've seen this, he's gonna come kill me. Listen to season two of betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you're looking for someone to help you unpack Queen Charlotte, a Bridgerton story, you're in the right place. It's me, Gabby Collins. Come with me because on Queen Charlotte, the official podcast, we're stepping behind the scenes and the drawing boards of this team to experience the life breathed into the Bridgerton prequel. Listen to the leaps executive producer and series director Tom Barrica took to capture the feeling that's put that lump in your throat. And you've got to catch creator Shonda Rhimes. She's dropping gems, diamonds, and mics. On this podcast, we're going beyond the basic line of questioning and getting to the heart of the show, all while appreciating the contributions of the show's creative teams and remarkable cast. Go inside each episode of Queen Charlotte, a Bridgerton story with the creatives, the cast, and creator Shonda Rhimes leading the way. Listen to Queen Charlotte, the official podcast, Thursdays on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or anywhere you get your podcasts. All right, we are back from the break. And by the way, I wanted to mention Brandon, you are you were so incredibly generous and we have already enjoyed a couple very delicious, very amazing beers and Brandon was not joking when he mentioned how we share a love of craft beer and we have some of the finest here. I just took a sip from mine and it's so stinking good. We'll talk about our thoughts on the beer at the end of the episode. But right before the break, I was, we were talking about consumption. Was there a point? Was there like a did a light turn on? Was there a switch that flipped that allowed you to start spending money to kind of shift from that through gality mindset to actually start enjoying some of your money? Like when did that point in time come for you? So I had created a software application prior to even starting the Mad Scientist and it started generating more income than we actually spend. So it was at that point where I was like, okay, we have this five portfolio that is meant to be providing all of our spending money. We're not even touching it because this application that I created a year or two before is actually bringing in more. So it was at that point I was like, this is ridiculous. So what I need to do is at least spend what the five portfolio could generate every year in perpetuity, which is the whole point of saving up a big portfolio and pursuing five. So that amount was about double what we normally spent over the last decade. So I've never hit that target. It's been a target for the past three years and I got fairly close the first year because I was, we were traveling a lot, that was post pandemic. So I was like, okay, we're gonna go and see my family, we're gonna go and travel and like we've been pent up in this one bedroom, Edinburgh apartment for a whole year. So let's go crazy. And we got sort of close, but we didn't hit the target. Last year we moved into a rental, which I knew was going to be our last rental before buying a place. So I was like, this will allow us to buy the things that we want to buy because we're only gonna have to move them one more time. So I bought like a super fancy coffee grinder, which you guys got the, he got got to reap the benefits of with a nice coffee when you arrived and things like that. And we sort of got, we got less close because that was, I had a list of things I wanted to buy for a lot of years. And it wasn't, it was a small list because I don't like stuff. So then this year we were really, we were really lagging behind the target, but then we just bought a house. So I think we're gonna maybe hit it this year because we're trying to, you know, furnish a house, even though it's been furnished when we bought it, which was super nice. We're still adding a few things to it. So maybe we'll get close this year, but this year I've set the target that if I don't spend it, I have to give it away because I also want to try to get better at giving away to charity because I just feel like we've been so fortunate. But old habits die hard. So I'm still gripping every penny with an iron fist, which I need to get better at not doing because yeah, it's just counterproductive at this stage. So whatever we don't spend under, under that goal, gonna, gonna give it away to charity, which is a whole other thing I need to explore. So, so yeah, so it was really the fact that got to a point where didn't even draw down on the five portfolio and realized I needed to start thinking about it. And then recently, the die with zero book has been really influential. And that's a that's only because Matt Finis readers and listeners actually recommended it when I was talking about the stuff that's been really impactful because he talks about you need to enjoy your money at certain stages. Like right now, like I'm 41 and, you know, I love skiing. So I need to spend on skiing now because maybe when I'm 50, I'm gonna be in a lot less physical shape that maybe it's not gonna be as fun. And my son's young, so doing stuff with him is gonna be more fun now when he's young than maybe when he's a teenager and does want to hang out with me. And things like that. So it's put a whole new perspective on things. And like I said before, like I've enjoyed every little bit of the increase that we've done. And again, we're not spending even probably what a typical American spends just normally, but every change we made this been beneficial so far. It's so it's so interesting to hear you talk about kind of those those trying to change the dial on saving or spending because they're really two different approaches to money. And so those years of being frugal and, you know, saving and investing half or more of your income, which is kind of what the the fire person is into, is like one way of approaching money. And then spending down that portfolio is a different completely different way of thinking about money. So but talk to me about, I'm curious, a lot of people who are in the fire movement, I guess, at a certain point in time, they might say, wow, this is really difficult to be setting aside this much of my income. It's a really hard thing then to to change your mentality and so do you wish at does any part of you wish you could go back to some of those early days when you were saving such an extreme amount of your income and say, I wish I would have lived it up a little more. I wish I would have saved a little bit less extremely. Yeah, so I'm very lucky in the sense that I don't have very many regrets. Joe and I, we traveled to like 50 countries in our 20s and 30s and travel was like the big thing for me and like, yeah, I got really good at travel hacking and using points and miles to make it cheap. And but yeah, I'm glad we did that when we were young because a lot of that travel I wouldn't want to do now in my 40s. So I'm really thankful for that. I'm thankful that we didn't sacrifice that to like some glorious like around the world trip when we're 50 or 60 because it just wouldn't be as fun because traveling the 40s is definitely not as fun as it was in the 20s. The only regrets I have from my entire fire journey is missing out on a few things in my 20s. Like, so for instance, like my buddies were getting married. So like the bachelor party would be a month before the wedding and I'm like, I live in Scotland. I'm not going to travel back to the States in June and then come back in July for the wedding. Like, I'll come to the wedding, that's the important thing. You know, like, I'll give you my gifts and get to catch up and all that stuff. But I'm not going to come just to get wasted for one night in June and then come all the way back in July. But I do regret that because just like the Die With Zero book says those trips aren't coming back. My buddies have stories that I'm not included in because I wasn't there. And it would have been so hard to spend that much money. Like, even now knowing what I know now, it was still been a really hard thing to spend that money to make two translators trips within a month. But yeah, I did miss out on that stuff. So those are literally the only things that I'm regretful of in my journey to fire. Like, I'm glad I lived the lifestyle that we lived so that we can live the lifestyle that we live now. I'm glad that we just let our lifestyle gradually increase. So even though our money was drastically increasing with our salaries increasing and side businesses increasing, we just gradually let it increase. And that's what's made it fun all these years. Like, had I let it drastically increase in my 20s when I could have, I would probably be sick of whatever I was doing in my 20s. Whereas now, like, just the fact that we own a house again, this is like a glorious thing. It's like, wow, I can put stuff in this drawer. And it's going to be in that drawer for the next X number of years. Like, that is like amazing to me right now. So I'm glad we did it gradually because, yeah, you get to appreciate it more. And I say this on my podcast a lot. It's like, we're really bad at knowing what we actually want in life. So experimenting is the only way to really know what you want. So we get to run all these fun experiments. And some of them don't work out and some of them do. But yeah, we could have easily just gone from, you know, broke students to like making whatever six figures and having that whole lifestyle. But it's like, what will we get to look forward to in our 40s? Like, long answer to your question. But yeah, there's only one thing I regret. And that is missing just a few bachelor parties with my friends because even if we did those trips again, we wouldn't be 20 year old idiots. Like we would have been at that time and we wouldn't have the stories that resulted from those 20 year old idiot extravaganza. So yeah, besides that, thankfully, I didn't sacrifice too much. I've got one more follow up, I guess, when it comes to how does it you spend money? But it sounds like that you were frugal. But it sounds like you also had Jill. So Jill is your wife. And that it seemed like she was on board. I haven't heard many stories shared at least about maybe y'all, you know, knocking heads when it comes to whether it's spending money or saving money or some of the different decisions. How were you able to get her on board so easily and you're shaking your head? No. And so if you if you weren't able to, how I guess what lessons did you learn along the way? Jill was never like she was never flashy or never extravagant. But if the money was in her account, it was spent it was it wasn't it was like, yeah, it's there. I'll spend it. It was yeah, I'm gonna end was zero at the end of the month. It's fine. It doesn't matter. It's like, there's my money. I'm gonna use it. So luckily it wasn't like battling against some sort of like, I need to show how successful I am or I need to show out extravagan I am. It wasn't anything like that. It was more like, all right, the money's in the count. I'll spend it. She never really understood why I was so intent on saving. It wasn't until we really sat down. It was on our honeymoon actually. So we dated for 10 years before we got married. So by the time our honeymoon rolled around, I was like, well, like what's your perfect life look like? She's like, well, what do you mean perfect life? I was like, well, if you could design exactly how you want to live, what is it like? She's like, what do you mean? That's a stupid question. Like, I just, I work like everybody else. I cook dinner and then, you know, we just live this normal existence. I was like, no, it doesn't have to be like that. Like, how would you design it if you could design it? And it was only when we went through that exercise and there wasn't a quick exercise. It lasted well beyond the honeymoon. It was like, lots of discussions, lots of thinking about it. And like, it was only then that you realize, oh, you know, I don't have to be driving to some office while she's an optometrist, but driving to some clinic 40 hours a week and being stuck there and having our whatever, a few weeks of vacation every year, like we could actually design it in a different way. And that was the turning point. So, and then obviously started the Mad Fientist Help. So I started that in 2012, started interviewing other people that thought like me. So she wasn't hearing it for me. The last thing she wanted to do is get lectured by me about how to deal with money. So hearing from other people that thought differently about money was really helpful. So I think it was the combination, those two things. It almost seems like, so obviously the question of asking what should like, what would our perfect life look like? It seems like that was a turning point where you could start to, like, essentially, you're starting with the end in mind. And then what steps do we need to take in order to get there? Sounds like that was huge. But what you're talking about now is, like, I hear you talk about like, if you are, if you're not going to spend a certain amount of money this year, like you're talking about giving it away. So essentially for you, what seems to be working now is essentially creating rules. You're basically creating like an algorithm, a formula that is going to work for you. And you know that if you don't follow through, and if X doesn't happen, well, why is going to happen? And I think that's important to point out that for some individuals, depending on how it is that you process and how it is that you think, it might literally, whether it's coming up with a formula within Excel, or even just writing out on a sheet of paper, saying that my goal is to spend X amount of my expendable income this year, or my goal is to set aside this much for retirement, whatever it is, I think, for the individual, you have to figure out the different approaches that are going to work for you. That is going to be able to move in need of whether it comes to how much you're able to invest your money, or even in your case, it seems like how much money you're going to spend. And so it seems like that that's actually working out for you. Oh yeah, my entire life is run by spreadsheets. So, so once I wasn't having spreadsheets to figure out how much I was saving, I need to have spreadsheets to tell me how much to spend. And yeah, just the way my brain works, like I do enjoy that. And it does take, does take my brain out of it a bit as well. It's like, it was very helpful on the saving path, because I knew like, this is what I wanted to do. And this is how I was going to do it. But it's super helpful now, because it's like, I know I want to spend this much. I know that's going to be a struggle. So then when I'm out and about and a potential expense comes up, I'm like, rather than before my entire life has been, oh no, spending is the worst thing that you can do. It's the last ditch effort. It means you haven't spent 20 hours on the internet trying to figure out a way to come and get that same thing for way cheaper or free. It means that you failed in some way. So this is what you have to do. You have to spend. So it's flipped that. And now it's like, okay, I have to spend this much more. So that's the no brainer thing to do. I just do that. And it helps me reach my other goal of spending this amount. And yeah, for a naturally frugal person, it's been absolutely game changing. And I realize how ridiculous it sounds. And I know this is going to be a small subset of the audience. But for all the fire people out there, they know how this feels. And even some very famous fire people, I see them struggling a lot with how to actually spend and utilize the money that they saved up. Because yeah, when you're when you're gone, money is meaningless, which it is all along. But we at least trick ourselves into think it's not. Yeah, man, I feel like we're such kindred spirits. We approach money into completely different ways. But we have so many similar thoughts and approaches and feelings towards it too. So that's just yeah, fun to hear your perspective on that. But we want to specifically talk about your life post fi you've got a kiddo now that changes everything as we all know anybody who has kids knows that that like throws a wrench in every single one of our plans. So we'll talk about that. And just really, yeah, what life post financial independence has been like for more than half a decade. We'll talk about more along those lines with Brandon, the mad scientist right after this. Hi, I'm David Eagleman. I have a new podcast called Inner Cosmos on iHeart. I'm a neuroscientist and an author at Stanford University. And I've spent my career exploring the three pound universe in our heads. On my new podcast, I'm going to explore the relationship between our brains and our experiences by tackling unusual questions so we can better understand our lives and our realities. Like, does time really run in slow motion when you're in a car accident? Or can we create new senses for humans? Or what does dreaming have to do with the rotation of the planet? So join me weekly to uncover how your brain steers your behavior, your perception, and your reality. Listen to Inner Cosmos with David Eagleman on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Last season, millions tuned into the betrayal podcast to hear a shocking story of deception. I'm Andrea Gunning, and now we're sharing an all new story of betrayal. Ashley Litten was helping her husband set up a business fan mail account when she discovered a terrible secret. I scrolled down and that's when I saw a hidden folder and I opened it. What the hell did I just see? I was scared that he was coming home. What Ashley discovered that day was a secret so dark she feared for her life. She was like, oh my god, I gotta get out of the house. He's gonna find out that I've seen this. He's gonna come kill me. Listen to season two of the trial on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. If you're looking for someone to help you unpack Queen Charlotte a Bridgerton story, you're in the right place. It's me, Gabby Collins. Come with me because I'm Queen Charlotte the official podcast we're stepping behind the scenes and the drawing boards of this team. To experience the life breathed into the Bridgerton prequel, listen to the leaps executive producer and series director Tom Barrica took to capture the feeling that's put that lump in your throat. And you've got to catch creator Shonda Rhimes. She's dropping gems, diamonds, and mics. On this podcast, we're going beyond the basic line of questioning and getting to the heart of the show, all while appreciating the contributions of the show's creative teams and remarkable cast. Go inside each episode of Queen Charlotte a Bridgerton story with the creatives, the cast, and creator Shonda Rhimes leading the way. Listen to Queen Charlotte the official podcast, Thursdays on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or anywhere you get your podcasts. All right, we're back. We're still talking with the mad scientist, our good friend Brandon Ganch, and he is, I mean, really kind of the OG in the fire movement or one of the OGs, right? And we were talking earlier about just the different generations of fire folks who have, like you are essentially the grandfather. You were one of the originals. Well, I feel like early retirement extreme was probably where Brandon got it from was like the original original, right? Nothing gets more original than that. Right, yeah, which is pretty Jacob Lundfisker. So, but yeah, I want to talk about what life has been like after you reached that point. Obviously, a lot of sacrifices, a lot of years, a lot of saving, a lot more than you make. And our audience, again, a lot of some of our audiences into the fire stuff, more a big chunk of our audience is also really into like basic personal finance. But financial independence, Matt and I always come at this conversation about money from that perspective that maybe not retiring early, but reaching financial independence within a reasonable amount of time is a really good goal. So, talk about what life has been like once you kind of hit that goal. It certainly seems like in those first couple of years, there was a little bit of like wheel spinning that you were not quite sure what life was going to look like. Maybe you have this big old financial goal that you wanted to hit. And then once you hit it, you were like, I don't know what to do right now. Yeah, big time for so so for me, like I felt incorrectly that my job was holding me back from everything that I wanted to do. So I blamed my job on the reason that I hadn't written an album like I had always wanted to do since I was a kid. I blamed my job for the reason I hadn't started a business like I had always wanted to do when I was maybe 20 plus. I blamed my job for everything, and only after getting rid of the job, did I realize that my job had nothing to do with any of that stuff. So the first few years were weird. The first one was amazing. So the first year after leaving my job I was like, this is amazing. Jill and I traveled all the way around the world, used a bunch of our miles to travel in like business class and try to try out all that stuff. We lived in Thailand and we did all that stuff and it was amazing. It was really fun. You know, a couple months in, we're like, okay, another temple, who cares? Like this isn't the like, Jill knew it. Jill wanted to do a one month trip. I wanted to do a one year trip. We settled on three months. By two months in, I was like, God, Jill was right. She's always right, but she lets me learn from my mistakes in practice rather than lecturing me. So that's nice. So yeah, I was like, yeah, it's another temple. It's lost its appeal. So then it was like, okay, well, I still haven't written that album that I always said I was going to write and like I haven't been an entrepreneur like I thought I would be and all this stuff. And you realize that your job's not stopping you from that. It's self-doubt. It's all the things that every creative person has to go through to create anything that they like. It's like, you feel like it's the worst thing that's ever been produced and you just all that stuff. It's like, so yeah, not having a job lets you more, more or less be miserable for 24 hours a day because the reason you're not successful was all in your hands. And that's a very difficult pill to swallow. And it was only the pandemic that saved me, to be honest, because we had moved to Edinburgh. The whole city shut down. The UK was way more locked down than the States, I think. And we had no options. And it was like, all right, well, you know, I've got the money to not have a job. I've got absolutely no distractions because we can literally only leave our apartment for one hour a day for exercise. And you can't even sit in the park. You have to walk in the park because sitting is not exercise. And it's like, okay, I have to do this thing that I said I always wanted to do. And that was write an album. And I spent that entire year writing the album. I did it. And it is still my proudest accomplishment of all time because I know how much awful self-doubt and like just torturous hours trying things. It took to make it. And I think that's the big lesson because people like me, I definitely did it, erasing towards five because they think it's going to solve all of their problems. And it literally solves none because when you log into your bank account and you see a number on the screen, you know, a slightly larger number on that screen is going to do nothing for your actual real life or your real happiness. It's what you do with the knowledge that you have that extra larger number in the screen that really matters. And that's tough. And it's tough to figure out how to do that when you're not practiced in it. And I wasn't practiced in it because all my focus and all my energy was towards saving. And once I had saved enough, it was like, well, okay, now what? I haven't worked on that entrepreneurial muscle. I haven't worked on that music muscle. I haven't worked on the spending muscle. I've not worked any of that. And they've all atrophy to nothing. Yes, I know how to save. And that's something I really see in the fire movement, which is why I've sort of backed away from it over recent years is a lot of people, it seems like they get to fire and they want to just integrate themselves more into the fire community. And that just seems counterproductive to me because it's like reaching financial independence is like, you know, you get really good at using a hammer because you want to build, say, I want to build a model airplane and you want to build a boat. And yeah, everyone, it's fun to talk about that hammer while you're building. But then afterwards, you want to hang out with boat people or I want to hang out with model airplane people. So to reach fire and then just want to just hang out more in the financial independence space seems counterproductive because it's like, well, that was just a tool to do something else. So that's why over the recent years, it's like I'm trying to get more into the music community and things like that because that was the whole point. So it's a it's tough because you get so focused on something, you get so good at something, and then once you reach that goal, the best thing to do is to leave it all behind. And that's not natural. I mean, essentially, you've in a sense won the money game. And if you continue to focus on the financial independence part of it, you are obsessing over that hammer. I mean, this is why we so we call it the craft beer equivalent. And this is a part of why we taught we we introduced every episode typically with a beer except for our Friday flights is because we're trying to kind of flex that small muscle of what is it that you do when it's been money on get creative when it comes to the different things that you want to pursue. And so in that way, like what are some of the other, I guess, areas of life? So you've already mentioned synthesizers and your pursuit of electronic music. And you've also mentioned the house, but I guess what are some of the other ways that you not only see yourself, allowing yourself to spend money, but that you are intentionally trying to see growth in other areas of your life that you are realizing that that's going to lead to long lasting joy and fulfillment. Yeah, that's a great question. And I just recently had Ramit set to you on the podcast, my podcast, because I knew he would be the one to push me a bit further. And he was talking to me about like, okay, like, what do you love? Like, and I've talked to you guys about this when you arrived, because I made you coffee. And it's like, yeah, I love my coffee ritual every day. And he's like, well, how can you push that to the next level? And like, he pushed me into levels that made me literally sweat behind the microphone, because I was like, that is ridiculous. Like, but I'm starting to do those and they are great. So it's like, he's like, well, what if you could 10x that spend? And I'm like, I have no idea, because the thing that you asked me to spend on was already like a huge stretch. Like, I couldn't even imagine spending on that. So the 10x it is just insane. But talking to him through it, like, it actually made sense. And I was like, okay, yeah, I could 10x the spend make absolutely no dent in the portfolio whatsoever. And yet maybe have this even more elevated coffee lifestyle than I already have. And so yeah, so talking to him was really important. But also it was the Die with Zero book that, again, a bunch of Mad Finetis readers and listeners recommended. And it was the fact that it was like, all right, you need to think about life in different stages. And yes, you could save up now to have like the ultimate trip when you're 50. But when you're 20, it may be a lot more fun staying in hostels and getting drunk on really cheap beer with your best friends. And that really resonated with me, because I do find that. Like I said earlier, the one regret is not, you know, having ridiculous bachelor parties with my buddies in the 20s, because that's not that's not going to happen again. So thinking about where I am at in my life right now, I'd always dreamed of like quote unquote proper retiring to the mountains, because I love pond hockey, I love skiing, I love snow, I love winter, I love everything about that whole lifestyle. And now that I have a son, like being able to ski with my son, like, that just sounds like the best thing in the world. That was always the dream. So Joe and I were like, well, we can, we'll do primary school in Scotland and then maybe move to a mountain destination. But then when I read that with zero, I was like, you know, when I'm 50, I may not want to, you know, be putting my knees through all that skiing that I want to do now. So rather than, yeah, save up a bunch of money by the perfect mountain house and have this perfect lifestyle with my 10 year old son, maybe every year we should just rent him Airbnb for a month and have an amazing month. And maybe that's enough. Maybe I don't need the house and maybe I don't need the community. If I have the community here in Scotland, maybe I can just, you know, have a month of super fun winter and then we have our community here. So so that's, that's the thought this year that's, it's going to use that money rather than just keep stockpiling because that's easy. That's what I've been doing my whole life rather than just keep stockpiling. It's like, all right, let's use it to have an amazing winter month. Let's teach my son to ski for the first time. And maybe that's going to be way better than saving up all that money for this, you know, mountain house that maybe we won't even get that much use out of it. It takes work to think creatively about how it is that you can start to spend that money now. But like you said, before you're old and decrepit before your, while your knees give out and you're not able to ski. Which the three of us are getting close to that place in our lives, right? So okay, so I'm curious. Last question. So thinking back to young mad scientist Brandon, and there are a lot of how to money lists or sewer in that camp who are kind of learning about how to handle money properly, like what it looks like to be smart with money. And our thing is all about balance and some of the fire community. Balance doesn't enter the equation. No balance. And so what would you say to someone who's in their, you know, early mid 20s, maybe even early 30s, and they're saying, I just kind of, I'm stumbling upon this. I really want to handle my money well. So I'm giving myself more options for the future. But I also don't want to sacrifice everything in the here and now. What does it look like for me to do that in a way that is like true to and good and good to my current self. But also, yeah, but also good to my future self. That's a great question. And yeah, so I would say, you know, I'm talking down on financial independence, but it's absolutely worth it. The security of knowing that everything is okay and you can do whatever you want. That's priceless. But I would look at every expense that you have as, okay, is this something I can do in my 20s and only in my 20s, then go ahead and do it. But if this is something like a fancy house or a fancy car, like, yeah, when you're 40 and you, you know, are stuck at home because you have kids and you can't travel the world because it's too complicated, then yeah, fancy car is going to make you super happy. So leave that for your 40s. You don't have to have everything perfect right away. Like, some of my happiest times are as a student and we had nothing when we were students. So yeah, don't let this seem like I'm talking down on five because there's not a day that goes by that I don't appreciate the choices of my 20s and 30s. But I would say never let your job be an excuse for what you really want to be doing because you have time. If you're on Twitter, you have time. If you watch YouTube, you have time. If you play video games, you have time. And you just have to do the hard thing and make the uncomfortable choices to do what you want to do. And that's not going to change if you have a million, 10 million, 100 million in the bank. So don't let your job be an excuse for not doing what you want to do. Just do the hard work because it's much harder to put off the hard work. Trust me. Yeah, there's a really good quote. I can't remember it and I'm going to butcher it. But it's something along the lines like, there's only you have to make a choice. It's either pain now or pain later. And that is that is really, really the case. So choose the pain now because it'll make later a lot more fun. You don't have to spend like everyone else. I think it just boils down to that. You need to experiment because you have no idea what you want. You think you know what you want, but then you don't because you try it and you're like, I don't want this. So experiment in low, you don't want to experiment and buy the boat and think, okay, this is my experiment because the boat's expensive, but rent the boat. See if you want to live on the ocean and you won't because it's it's way you're going to sleep terribly. But don't put off your perfect life to fire if you are one of the fire people like me who thought everything would be perfect once you hit fire. But you know, don't spend like everyone else because everyone else is crazy. I think that's why. So like, I think that's so true pain now or pain later, whether that's when it comes to saving your money or in your case, spending it, which I think it is more rare. But what I hear you saying too is to pay attention to shelf life, right? Pay attention to the limited amount of time and the limited exposure that you might have to certain experiences don't short change those. And I really like to what you ended there when it comes to experimenting, figuring out what it is that you might actually enjoy. Like, what is your craft beer equivalent? It takes some time it takes some trial and error to figure out what that thing is, but took a lot of craft beer for us to get in. That's true. But we really appreciate you chatting with us today on the podcast. We'll make sure to link to the mad scientist. And typically, we say farewell at this point, but you are sitting here with us and we are all sharing the same craft beer. And so during this episode, we enjoyed a beer by verdant. This is putty. This is a triple IPA. Brandon, I'm going to toss this over to you. What were your initial thoughts? What did you think about this beer? I love it. So verdant is one of my favorite UK breweries and putty with three teas. Is their triple IPA version of their flagship once a year release putty, which I love as well. So yeah, putty, triple IPA is pretty impressive. And we've already gone through some cloudwater troubles to get to this stage. So I can't believe I'm stringing any two words together at this stage because yeah, as a new dad, as a new dad, Joe and I can maybe handle one half of a beer before we fall asleep. So the fact that we've got through so many triple IPAs to get to the stage is pretty, pretty amazing feat. So thank you guys for coming all the way to rural Scotland to see me. And you guys are welcome back anytime. And now we're going to move on to the Scotch whiskey portion of the evening, which is going to well, honestly, if you're sharing six different triple IPAs amongst six people, it actually is not too difficult of a task to accomplish. But man, this was, I want to just thank you so much, because this is an amazing beer. Like it's got the the tropical citrus notes going on, but at the same time, it's got the sharpness from the hops. It's so incredibly fresh on a delightful beer. So thank you for sharing a special one from your your beer fridge. See the interesting thing about drinking a great IPA, sometimes that first sip can be a little biting on the alcohol content. And then you have another sip and you're like, dang, wait a second, that just changed a whole lot. And this beer did just that. And so they had the verdant triple IPA putty is a delight. And one that we don't have any exposure to back in the States, you got to fly all the way to to freakin Scotland to enjoy. So thanks to Brandon for providing this delicious beer and this wonderful conversation. But that's going to do it. We'll have links to everything Brandon related in our show notes up on the website at howtomone.com. And we'll see you next time here at the How To Money podcast. Until next time, Matt, best friends out, best friends out. Hi, I'm David Eagleman. I have a new podcast called Inner Cosmos on iHeart. I'm going to explore the relationship between our brains and our experiences by tackling unusual questions. Like, can we create new senses for humans? So join me weekly to uncover how your brain steers your behavior, your perception and your reality. Listen to Inner Cosmos with David Eagleman. On the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Last season, millions tuned into the betrayal podcast to hear a shocking story of deception. I'm Andrea Gunning, and now we're sharing an all new story of betrayal. Ashley Litten was helping her husband set up a business Venmo account when she discovered a terrible secret. I saw a hidden folder and I opened it. What the hell did I just see? Listen to season two of Betrayal on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. On Queen Charlotte, the official podcast, we're stepping behind the scenes and the drawing boards of this team to experience the life breathed into the Bridgerton prequel. Listen to the leaps executive producer and series director Tom Barrica took to capture the feeling that puts that lump in your throat. And you've got to catch creator Shonda Rhimes. She's dropping gems, diamonds and mics. You can listen to Queen Charlotte the official podcast every Thursday on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts or anywhere you listen to your favorite shows.