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You're listening to the Sportsman's Empire Podcast Network. Your home for real, relatable, outdoor podcasts. Interstate batteries offers a wide variety of batteries for your everyday needs. Stop into one of their thousands of retail locations and talk with a battery specialist about batteries for your truck, trail cameras, and even those weird batteries for your rangefinder. Interstate batteries even offer cell phone repair in certain locations. For more information, visit interstatebatteries.com. Interstate batteries, outrageously dependable. I check one, two ladies and gentlemen. Here we go. Welcome back to the Hunting Year podcast. I'm your host, Dan Johnson. And today we will be talking with Kevin Leach from Latitude Outdoors. Now, if you don't know who Latitude Outdoors is, you're going to learn today. They are a saddle hunting company, but I have a feeling that in the next handful of years they're just going to continue to come out with some pretty cool products. I saw their booth at the ATA show and I must admit they make a good saddle and they have a really lightweight carbon fiber climbing stick. If you're a gear junkie, you already know all this stuff. But today we're going to get some information straight from the horse's mouth. Kevin Leach, he's one of the original founders. And today we're going to talk about company history. We're going to talk about their product line, how they develop new products, and then we're going to break it down into saddles. And we're going to break it down into climbing sticks and all the other accessories that they offer. So this is a really good episode, especially if you're trying to get into the saddle hunting space and you're trying to figure out what products you want to buy, what brand you want to buy. This episode is just going to give you the information that you need to make it an accurate decision. So with that said, there are no commercials this week. Let's get right into today's episode with Kevin Leach from Latitude Outdoors. Three, two, one. All right, ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the hunting gear podcast. I'm your host, Dan Johnson. And today we're going to be talking with Kevin Leach from Latitude. Kevin, how are we doing, man? Morning, Dan. Thanks for having me on. Yeah. You a coffee drinker? I'm a big coffee drinker. Yeah. Yeah. I've recently had to cut back on the amount of coffee that I was drinking. I was drinking almost, I want to say almost a whole pot in the mornings over a three hour period. And then I would eat lunch. Then I would get tired. And then I would have like somewhere around one or two, two thirty. I would have to have another cup of coffee. And so finally, I've just been like, geez, that's too much caffeine. I needed like, cut it back drastically. So I have my coffee here, but it's like, it's only this much of it. And it's my first cup of the day. And so I got to cut back before my heart jumps out of my chest. Yeah, that happens to me sometimes as well. It seems like it kind of comes and goes either. I'm drinking a lot or then I try to cut back similar way you mentioned there. But it's a constant battle with how much caffeine is being ingested. So it just depends on what's going on, I guess, in life. Yeah, absolutely. You're getting fired up for the upcoming season yet. Oh, man, yeah, we just got back a little over a week ago. We had the toiletry challenge here in Michigan, which we attend every year. And it feels like that with the timing of it always kind of being that second weekend of June. You know, I like to kind of stop thinking about hunting for at least a couple of months in the spring time. I'm a big fisherman. We really all are on the team. And it's a good way to kind of get away and have some balance throughout the year. But once a total archery challenge hits here in Michigan, it's like a switch flips. And, you know, I'm thinking about white tail now for sure and excited to get some cameras out here. And looking at what the prospects are for the upcoming fall. Yeah, I have a couple things that I'm really looking forward to within the next handful of weeks. This week's going to be crazy. I don't think I'll be able to do it this week. But maybe next week, I keep pushing it back, but I got to get trail cameras out. Right. I already dumped the mineral out during turkey season. I just need to go put the trail cameras over top of them. Then put some trail cameras into the, you know, into the like the pinch points and things like that. See what deer moving around. And then the other thing is I got my skull plate right here from last year's buck. And I just got confirmation that they're ready for it at my taxidermist. But my taxidermist is like an hour and a half away from where I live. So I got to, I got to go make a trip down there so he can put it together so that I can make another trip down there to go pick it up, you know, by the end of June or something like that. So I don't know about you, but visiting my number one, my taxidermist Sam Gaylord from Old Barn Taxidermy. He, I don't know what it is about him. I just love talking with that guy. He's just one of those people that I just like to see every year. I like to catch up with him. I like to be us with him. And it's one, it's like an adult Christmas. You go there, you drop something off that you know what you're going to get back. And it's just awesome every single time. I feel like having just a jolly personality and a bunch of good stories is like a prerequisite for being a taxidermist. Absolutely. Everybody's name, you'll see him once every year, every few years, whatever it ends up being, but they remember everybody, they see a lot of cool stuff and they have a lot of good stories. Oh, that's a fact, lots of good stories. Let's see here latitude out of Michigan, right? That's correct. Yeah, that's our home base here. All right. How many years has the latitude been a company? Well, at the time of this recording in two weeks. So we're mid June here, 2023. We will hit our three year anniversary at the end of the month. Okay, awesome. All right. And it's you and two other founders. Is that correct? Yeah. So we started so myself and then my two good friends from college. That's where we met. We're off originally from Grand Rapids, Michigan. But we met in undergrad over at the University of Michigan on the east side of our state here. And so Alex Chop and Jake Metallica are my two partners. And we've just been since college hunting and fishing buddies, you know, ever since. And really always tinkering building our own gear. And that ultimately led into, you know, what became latitude outdoors here three years ago. But we're just really good friends that, you know, have a passion for everything we talk about and everything we build product for. Yeah. Awesome. All right. So three dudes sitting around. Sometimes three dudes sitting around can be good. Sometimes it can be bad. But three dudes who love hunting in the outdoors sitting around. How does latitude form? How does it? What's the what's the intro story? What's the origin story of latitude? Yeah. So it, I mean, it's, it's interesting. We all grew up in hunting families. Our dads were always hunting our grandpa. Well, not me, but Jake and Alex, their grandfather. For both of them were both big into it. So we all grew up around it. A lot of just public land. You know, none of our families really have access or own a bunch of private here in Michigan. But we have a ton of public land in Michigan. So we all grew up around it. Those guys started doing white tail hunting very early on. And I was, I was a big athlete in my younger years all the way up through college, actually. So I really didn't start white tail hunting on my own until after college. And they were right there in the very beginning of it. But kind of what that did is I think I, I kind of, when I started, I came in with less preconceived notions. In terms of gear and what, you know, should be used out there. You know, I didn't really come up with the. Hey, we got to go set our stands for the year and go fine tune those spots and hope they don't get stolen and that kind of thing. My dad was always a mobile public land guy has been for over 50 years just because that's what he had to do. But. The, the origination of the saddles in the company really started. I was traveling for work and staying up in Midland, Michigan, which is a small town in northern Michigan. But it's where Dow Chemicals had quartered and they were a client of mine at the time for my previous job. And Midland, Michigan's a great little town, but it's little and you run out of things to do pretty quick. So I was staying in hotel three nights a week and just, you know, the way my, my brain works. It's kind of looking for things to do and building new stuff and I just started. I've been messing with the saddles for a little bit and specifically in Anderson Treesling, an old one that my dad found in his basement that. My mom bought for him from Meyer for probably 35 bucks back in the day early 90s. And I had been playing around with that for a while and modifying it and. I just started progressing that further. There were some things I really liked about that old two panel sling design, but there were a lot of issues with the user friendliness of it specifically. And I was, I actually bought a sewing machine off of Amazon and I started doing, you know, bringing that up to Midland with me every week and buying some webings and different materials and sewing together these saddles at night after work in a hotel room. And did that for probably six months or so and felt like I was starting to get some traction in the direction of something that was different, but significantly better than what I had been DIYing with the Anderson Treesling. And I showed it to Alex and Jay. I was sitting in it and, you know, the light bulb kind of went on and it clicked and they could see why it was better and different. And we started working on it together from that point and really refined it over the next 22 months leading up to launching latitude outdoors in early July of 2020. So it was, I mean, we were working on the saddle itself and that turned into our method to panel saddle. Specifically, what was being worked on in the hotel there and, you know, that, that was something that almost two years before we even started the company, we had been working on. So we, we, you know, tested with a bunch of friends and whatnot in our, in our circles and just kind of, you know, it evolved from there and was well received. We kind of put this thing together with our own money. We don't have a big financial donor or a backer. We're just literally three really good friends from college that build gear to solve problems for ourselves. And we put them out there and other people liked them as well. So here we are three years later. Gotcha. So you guys, maybe the peak is has passed, but, you know, the very first time saddles were introduced. It was a fad and I think it was a fad just because technology and social media was, it wasn't around at that time, right? So it came and went great social media hits things, things that are are able to get like certain things in life are able to be reborn. A fad can start again. All right. So saddles are introduced again. And then I would say somewhere around the time that you guys started would have been like the peak of the saddle craze. Why did you guys say man, you know, because, because there's a lot of other companies out there that already had established companies already had saddles made. How did, how, how did you guys make the decision to say, okay, we're going to start this business and we're going to plan to compete with the already established saddle market. Well, I think it's, it's a pretty easy answer for us is two things. First and foremost, we're just extremely passionate about this industry, this, you know, hunting in general public land moving around. I mean, all three of us are personalities. We just love to explore new places and trying new things. And that was really the impetus for starting the company wasn't that hey, we want to go try to make some money because saddles have gotten popular. We feel like we've got a different design that fits well in the marketplace and solve some problems with people. That's all kind of execution details, but we've always together wanted to collectively start a company. And it just so happens that it ended up being with hunting saddles in the hunting space. But we, we start this because we want to just share our passion for trying new things and seeking adventure and inspire other people to do that. So that's the root of it. And it just so happens that the saddle was sort of the mechanism for us to start doing that. This is the life that we wanted to live and was a goal of ours. So, I don't know if that's that's kind of how we approached it. Okay. All right. So when you guys are, when you, you are sitting around sowing these saddles in, in this hotel room. So, did you look at other saddles and were you already a saddle hunter saying, hey, I use this saddle. I'm experienced saddle hunter. I want to, I want to put my twist on it or I want to make the current version better. What was that? What was that like? Because some people would look at and go, oh, it's just another saddle company coming to the market selling the same thing. How would you, how would you answer that? Yeah. So yes, we always look at, you know, other saddles from the competition. There's always some baseline lining involved. But when we, you know, go and develop any product, even, you know, even some of that's not a saddle. We don't, we don't sit down and write down what the competition is doing. And then, you know, try to find a way to kind of fit in the marketplace, right? We always start with the customer and really trying to build empathy along the entire, you know, journey map of how they're going to be using that product within their hunting system. Because everyone has a little bit different system. And then what are the problems that they are prioritizing and experiencing? Are there problems that they're experiencing that we've even realized? And how can we find a solution then to fit along that entire journey map that optimizes the experience from the moment you leave the truck and tell you get back in or, you know, your back door, I guess, if you've got a back 40. Now, specifically with the method saddle and the, and the saddles, we felt like there was a gap in the marketplace specifically around what we feel a two panel provides you. So there really wasn't we would consider a more modern day two panel sale design in the space available when we launched the company. And there is one specific problem that we think a two panel address is better than anything else out there. And that is specifically that in general with a one piece saddle design, the larger the saddle is the more comfortable. Yes, it's just, you know, kind of the way is you've got more real estate to sit on once you're up in the tree. The challenges we feel like once you get to a certain size, you start to get diminishing returns for the whole point of going to a saddle system. Right. We want to be as lightweight and streamlined and efficient as possible. And we feel that way because that's what we, you know, the hand worked out what we grew up with is public land swamp hunting and Michigan, right, which is nasty. It's you got to come and do it. I think what two, three years ago, you know, grid you talk about it on on worried to hunt with Mark and your experience there and Iowa guy in Michigan in the fall, which, you know, is kind of mind boggling. But it was really fun to listen to your perspective as a Michigan guy like, you know, vindicated everything we complain about. But, you know, so for us having just making something bigger and larger and more bulky to get the comfort in the tree is really not an option. You can do it, but it's going to start to, you know, really hamper the whole point of switching to one of these things. So a two panel specifically ours, it allows it to be really streamlined and compact the saddle when you're wearing any time your feet are on the ground and you're climbing up and down the tree. We want to be as compact and as streamlined as possible. So you're not snagging on brush, you know, it can lead to safety issues if your thing is hooking on stuff going up and down the tree. So that two panel design specifically, you know, we've got the magnet magnetic system that couples the two panels together. This thing slims down to like a weightlet belt when you're wearing it in. Yeah. But when you get in the tree, you can separate those two pieces and you have a ton of adjustability to get really comfortable. So kind of solving that issue of, hey, I want to minimize bulk when my feet are on the ground. And I want to be as comfortable as possible and have a much as much adjustability as possible to get comfortable for my body size and shape when I'm in the tree. Right. Is what the two panel we feel provides and that was that first problem we set out to solve early on. Yeah, I, I don't know, I, I hunted a saddle for a couple hunts this past year. I shot my, my deer and I will fairly early. So I didn't have time to just really get into it. But, um, but I get what you're saying with the bigger, the more comfortable. Is there a way to. Is there a way, I mean, do you guys feel that then your design. Gives all of the, the comfortable, you know, the, the comfortability, I believe it would be the word. At a more minimalistic design, as far as materials concern. That's always been our goal, right? I mean, we want all of our products to be first and foremost, the as light as possible, second as fast and as efficient as possible. And then, you know, third as quiet as possible. Without sacrificing, you know, the experience overall and, you know, we're, you're kidding yourself. If you're going to go up and sit in a tree and be uncomfortable for six hours, it's just not enjoyable, right? We're out there to enjoy ourselves. Um, so a lot of guys prioritize comfort and it is a very important aspect of these things because, you know, you might have to sit all day in the rut for five, six, seven, ten days in a row to get, you know, the bunker after. Um, but we're out there to have fun. So, you know, and the more comfortable you are, the less you're going to move around in the tree. So the less you're going to get picked. Um, you know, there's a lot of different factors that go into it. But yeah, ultimately, you know, that is really the core of our saddle designs is, you know, we want you to be really comfortable. But we're not, we don't want to have to do that at the expense of, you know, being lightweight streamline. Gotcha. Is the, um, is the saddle that you guys came out with the original saddle? Did you guys, other than the three of you who tested it out, did you guys hand it out to anybody saying, hey, give us some feedback on this before you took it to market? Yeah, we do that with everything to this day. I mean, we have a very, um, structured slash unstructured. It's, you know, five step development process with all of our products that allows for a lot of creativity. But ultimately testing and field testing is, I mean, it's extremely important. And we go through a lot of that with everything we do. So yes, even before the company was a thing and anything was available for purchase. You know, we did that with, you know, several dozen people that, you know, a lot of them in Michigan, they're hunting similar challenging scenarios. We are, but we've since expanded that to guys all over the country that help us, you know, with field testing and really are part of our feedback. We've any time we're developing anything. So yeah, that's a huge part of our process. Because we feel like you really can't, I mean, there's, there's just some things you can't predict until you put, you know, a couple thousand hours on something in the field. So once you guys handed out that first round of, of saddles and some of that gear. Did anything come back to you and, and you're, you had to redesign or re engineer and be like, oh, duh, you know, like you, or did it come out perfect. No, we had a ton of feedback. We, it's funny. You know, I was kind of marching down an initial path when I started that, you know, the stuff in the hotel room on my own. And then when you start getting more minds involved, you get more ideas and more opinions. And you have to kind of figure out how to manage, you know, each person prioritizing different things. But one of the things we had early on in our design was we actually, we had quite a bit of metal in the design of the saddle itself. And that, that was a piece of feedback we heard from everyone who tested the, the first generations was they wanted to eliminate that. It felt like there's too many opportunities to plank and make noise. So we, I mean, we took that to heart and we went all the way through. I mean, we call it our metal free design. Now, our likes, which are removable have some metal clips on them. But the core saddle as you're wearing it in and out of the woods. Where with the legs, draft one around the ground has no metal at all. So we actually developed a metal free buckle or I should say belt system. That's made out of, you know, a climbing rated rope with the climbing rated friction. So, you know, our saddle, you can hold it up in the air and shake it around. It doesn't make a sound. So we, you know, very early on had a lot of click and clank and like a lot of other stuff that's out there. A lot of the stuff that existed back in the day was like that. And, you know, we said, hey, let, can we eliminate all of that? And that became a big, big change early on in the design to get to our, what we call our metal free design. Gotcha. Okay. And so, as you guys start to come out with this company, what were some of the first, so you came out, the method was the first saddle that you came out with. That's correct. Yeah. And then you guys are on the method too. What's the difference between the method and the method too? The number one difference is the first generation, the two pan, the two panels coupled together with a set of Kitex clips on each hip. There was a little loop and you just took your bottom panel and you set it into those clips. And that kept the two panels together in a nice compact setup for going in on the woods. That worked well. We had some early, so feedback early on with clips, you know, ultimately not being durable enough or, you know, popping out and being lost. So we pretty quickly, we knew we were going working towards a magnetic system. And that's the big difference is the two panel or the method to the two panels magnetically coupled together. So there's a set of, there's three points around the body of the saddle, one on each hip, and one on the center of the back where the two panels magnetically snap together. And that's what keeps the saddle into like a one piece design and a very compact profile for putting it on and off, taking it on and off, and then when you feed it on the ground. But when you get in the tree, all you got to do is just pull down on that bottom panel. We have a little set of grab handles on there, specifically dedicated for that. And they just detach. And it's dead silent. The magnets are weather and waterproof. And they're, you know, they're very high in strong magnets. So that thing does not separate when you're walking around in the woods. It just makes everything extremely easy, quiet and durable to use. You know, which kind of goes back to, hey, we started with Anderson slings. And there was a lot of things about those when you weren't in the tree that were just not user friendly. We feel like the magnets are the best way to, you know, make a two panel, just super user friendly on the ground, especially. Gotcha. So it's that magnetic feature. Okay. All right. So the saddle comes out. Did, did you guys launch a platform right away with the saddle or was, was that a year down the line? That was a little over a year down the line. We just, we basically launched our saddles and ropes and some pouch accessories to kind of get yourself organized. And then the platforms came just last year, actually. And that was, and we've got a couple of different platform options. We've got our more traditionally, the more traditional design, at least it looks more traditional in our rebel platform, which, you know, both of our platforms are machine aluminum, but the rebel gets you a lot of real state for the weight. Two point seven pounds. You know, it's like 25% bear or 30% bearer than you like a predator platform from tether, which is one that everybody knows. That's a great product as well. So it's a really, you know, good platform for if you want a lot of real estate without a lot of weight. And then we've also got our X wing platform, which is an extremely unique looking design. It literally looks like a Star Wars X wing. We're all big Star Wars fans or at least I am. So that's where that came from. But people actually just naturally started calling it that when we showed it to folks at ATA two years ago. But that is a very uniquely shaped platform that was developed out of, you know, a lot of challenges we had. Being nimble in the tree to make certain shots. So specifically the weak side shot that platform really helps with making that shot. Much more easy to make, but also easier to make while you're still behind the tree hidden from the deer. So that's a big advantage of saddle hunting is, you know, being able to move around the tree 360 and use that tree as cover. But I mean, we end up in a lot of small funny situations, me specifically where the foliage is down. You're in a tiny tree. So you got to work with what you have. And you know, staying on the backside of the tree sometimes is all you have for cover. So that platform helps a lot with that. So sewing fabric. And then this is aluminum, right? So is this this cast or machined? They're both machine aluminum. Okay. We machine right here in Michigan. Okay. So two completely different products, right? As far as just the material alone, was there much of a learning curve on how to manufacture or how to design a platform versus a saddle? Or were there any crossover similarities? So we are very fortunate amongst the three of us to have a wide variety of backgrounds and skill sets. We're all very different. So I came, so I have a mechanical engineering background, but then I worked in technology for Microsoft for seven years. Okay. So, you know, did a lot of different things. Jake, you know, he did manufacturing consulting with, you know, the big automotive companies. So his last project, he came off of designing and implementing a manufacturing line for the Jeep Grand Cherokee. That was his last project before he, you know, start working latitude full time. And Alex was, you know, in medical device sales, he was pre-med. He used to be an organic chemistry tutor, really smart guy with a whole different skill set. So we actually probably came into this with more experience designing hard goods. You know, so anything made for metal, that was more natural to us. We had to learn how to take a textile product and manufacture it at scale. And we leaned on early on our Michigan manufacturing partner that makes a bunch of our saddles. Help us with some of that, but we had to just flat out get on the sewing machine and learn how it works. And, you know, learn how to make these things. And we learned early on that, hey, if we can make it efficiently ourselves, it can be scaled on the manufacturing and very, you know, much easier. So there's no magic with textiles. It kind of looks like it from afar. Really like it's really complicated, but you just got to break it down step by step. But the hard goods was easier. That's just what we had more experience in that past, but they are completely different. Gotcha. And so I take it that was, was that something that you had always had planned or was this again customer feedback where customers are like, hey dude, you got the saddle you need a platform. Do those two products go hand in hand? Yeah, so I mean a saddle hunting system is we we always talk about it as a five tool system. You've got your saddle obviously. You got two ropes, the one you hang from, which we call your tether. And then your lime and belt, which is the rope that you want to use for safety going up and down the tree that parts technically not different from what you should be doing with the tree stand any tree stand. And then you need something for your feet and typically a small platform, especially if you're new is the best option. Some guys use what's called a ring of steps, which is some basically some little steps on a strap that you can put on the trees. You can walk around the tree. Some people use them together. Because they like the advantages that both provide. And then you need something to climb the tree. Typically, you know, a set of lighter weight climbing sticks is most popular with any mobile hunting system, whether it's with the tree stand or a saddle. So you really need those five tools and you know, we've always been working towards having all five tools available. But we, you know, obviously, once we came off the saddles and got some positive feedback from those people were scratching clawing for us to come out with a platform as well. So it was both, but we've always had, you know, this vision of having a full suite so that you can kind of come and get anything you need for your mobile hunting system. Right. One kind of a one stop shot type deal. Right. I mean, yeah, it's a no brainer. It's a you're right. It's a no brainer. I mean, if you're going to sell this, why not sell the accessories and everything else that you need to get up a tree. Right. Which now leads us to the climbing sticks. Right. And that was a new introduction this year. Correct. That's correct. It ate in January this year. And I believe you guys won an award for best, best product or what was your award that you won this year? Yeah, we were extremely blessed fortunate to win best new product in show, which was, you know, a surprise to us. We entered it. Obviously you have to enter into that to be considered for it. And we were hopeful, but we won. So it was a, I mean, it was an amazing surprise. So we're just. Yeah. Okay. So, and these are carbon fiber. Correct. They are. So they are a one piece, one singular piece carbon fiber composites stick. So we don't, we don't bowl blue multiple pieces together. They are a singular piece of material. Okay. So from the saddle to the aluminum platform, that's completely different. Now you're working with a new material. And what is this injection molded? It's a molding ish process molding ish process. Okay. All right. So now you're working with carbon fiber, which is completely different. Talk to us about any type of, you know, the learning process manufacturing carbon fiber. And if you guys tried an aluminum first or was carbon fiber, always the first, the first idea. Yeah. So we've been working on that climbing stick for just under, it was just under three years when we launched it at ATA. Yeah. So we actually started working on that pretty much when we launched the company. I mean, within weeks of launching the company with our first generation saddles and accessories, we were already working on working on this. And, you know, the other part of your question is, yes, we always wanted to go the carbon fiber route with the climbing stick design, because we felt like there's just a lot of advantages in the woods with that in the white tell woods with that material. And we always felt like if we couldn't ultimately get what we wanted out of it, we could fall back to an aluminum design. Aluminum is a lot easier to work with as far as developing a product. Carbon fiber is a very slow, long, arduous process to test and develop anything you're making it with, really. There's some limits around the manufacturing processes in the prototyping phase, and then everything just takes a while. Carbon fiber, you know, there's, there's just less, I would say robust manufacturing partners out there, especially in the United States for that material. And it takes time to find the right one and work through that and, yeah, but it was a three year project for us. So we've been learning a lot about that material, what's available in terms of how to manufacture it and how to design for it with it for a long time now at this point. Awesome. Any road bumps along the way with these climbing sticks. There's always road bumps with any product along the way. Yeah, I mean, like I said, it was a three year project. So we didn't just, you know, draw a climbing stick that had the features, the ideal, you know, features that we wanted and spit one out and, you know, it was done. So there was a lot of work in testing that went into really trying to marry everything that we wanted in a climbing stick. So we wanted something that had no moving parts. So there was no maintenance. We wanted something that had no metal, including the strap and attachment design. So that there was no opportunity for noise, but also that, you know, it would be eliminate some weight and in, you know, make it very packable. So we wanted to stick that would pack together flush stack together flush to minimize your overall profile when you're bringing them into the woods. We want them to be really lightweight, but try to incorporate all of that into the manufacturing technology that we are using on these things. That was a, that was a nut that took a long time to crack. Obviously, I can't go into the specifics of all of it, but basically taking the type of carbon fiber composite we are using and getting it in the shape of a climbing stick with all those features and then getting the structural integrity and performance from a durability and strength standpoint, marrying all those two, all of that together was the big challenge that took the longest to figure out. But we eventually got it. Gotcha. Well, that's awesome, man. First off, congratulations on that award. That's pretty slick. And I did get the opportunity to hold, hold those sticks and like. So throughout, throughout the entire time I've been mobile, including this year, still, I, I use the three step original lone wolf's, lone wolf climbing sticks. And so I feel like the comparisons might be a little off, but this is here's what it felt like in my hand. Your three sticks and that one were about the same way, if not let, if you're, if not less. And so just the difference in how light they are is, it blew, it blew my mind, dude. So the amount of things that people are being able, you know, are able to do with carbon fiber now and making things so much lighter is, I don't know, man. I feel like it's only a matter of time until we have a full blown, affordable, like tree stand, a fully carbon fiber tree stand on its way. Oh, I mean, I imagine that'll happen one day, right? With the direction material science is going and the hunting space doesn't, doesn't drive that we absorb it. Just because we're small and we don't have the money and the engineers to develop no new material. Either that on the material side or the manufacturing process side with it, but so it kind of trickles down from other industries and what we're using is from other industries, right? It's been around for a while and used in automotive and aerospace extensively. It's used in medical. It's actually really cool art, our climbing sticks, the facility they're made in, which is here in the United States. This is a made in the USA product. So from a quality control standpoint, that's especially important with carbon fiber. But they're made right next to medical grade parts. So in terms of the quality inspection and control, you know, it's, it's right in line with that type of industry. So yeah, you're probably right in that tradition. There will one day be something that's not, you know, over a thousand dollars. And everything is everything that you guys do made in America. Not everything. We do are what we consider our core safety products. So really those five tools I mentioned earlier on. Those are the ones we're making here in the States. And you know, we believe that's important from a quality control standpoint to keep people safe. Safety is obviously our number one priority. But then if folks are trusting, they're trusting us with their lives, right? By using these products in an elevated position out the woods. So we do that stuff here. And then we do do some of our smaller accessories, especially the textiles overseas. And that's just more or less a capacity thing nowadays here in the United States. There's just not as many textile manufacturers. It's slowly starting to come back. So that may change in the future. But that just helps us, you know, get those to our customers. But, you know, more efficiently, essentially, while we focus on the safety stuff here. Yeah. So I know there's a tree stand safety association, right? Or is it the TSA or something like that? That you have. And so they have to go through a variety of testing to get approved and things like that. Are saddle saddles and platforms? Do they have to go through that type of certification as well? So those certifications are under development for both saddle. So for saddles, ropes and platforms, we are on the committee with like tethered, for example, is contributing to that trophy line. So we're all collectively working together with some third party testing facilities. We're all members of the tree state manufacturer association and developing testing standards for all three of those product categories within the satellite system. There are already standards for a specific, for static testing is what it's called for saddles. So basically, strength testing, overall, strength testing the saddle, there are already standards in place that have been submitted to the ASTM, which is a global testing, you know, standard organization that applies to all industries across the world. So we've got our set of standards that they approve and put their stamp on for the hunting industry. So there are already standards for climbing sticks and tree stands and safety harnesses. So the standards for all those other saddle hunting components are in process. And some for the saddles are already done. So we're on the front edge of putting those together and we do a lot of testing ourselves with everything. So for like a platform, for instance, does a standard exist yet? No, but we basically test them like a tree stand standard and there's just not a formal standard yet. All right. So, you know, from from saddle and the accessories that you need, you know, obviously you can't, you have to use or have a rope system for a saddle, the platform to the climbing sticks. Where do you guys see latitude going in the next five years, maybe even 10 years down the line and the assortment of products that you're going to be offering at that point? Yeah, so I mean, we, we, we see ourselves as a mobile hunting company, right? Yeah, I mentioned earlier, we started this thing because we wanted to inspire people to enjoy exploring, you know, new things. So we're going to continue to innovate in any area within the mobile hunting space that we see an opportunity for innovation to get lighter, faster, more quiet, more streamlined. So that people can really focus more on the hunting experience and less on their gear, you know, throughout that process. So, you know, there's some, there's some pieces, you know, over the next year or so, like, for instance, a backpack, maybe that, you know, we're working on beyond that. Yeah, you know, we, we have a lot of ideas and there's a lot of areas within the mobile hunting space that we anticipate contributing and innovating around, but it's, it's a little TVD as far as what I can say. Yeah, but yeah, but there are some, you know, like a backpack system is, you know, it's kind of central to how you organize and bring every all those five tools in with you and out with you on it. And it's used on every hunt. So, yeah, that we see as the next kind of the next big piece, you know, and yeah, yeah. And the reason I ask a question because you got, you know, obviously they're a saddle, a platform and the climbing sticks, they're all in a way under this, like, tree, like, in a tree, right? In a tree, in order to get up a tree, you need all these things in order to saddle hunt, you need all these things. And so the reason I ask that is because I'm starting to see and I'll just use Exodus trail cameras, for example, their first product was trail cameras. And now they're, they're, they're selling arrows as well. So you're, you're starting to see this expansion of products being introduced under brands that may, yeah, they're under the same hunting category. But they're in completely different categories within that spectrum. Sure. Yeah, I mean, we are, we are focused on the mobile hunter. So if it's something that touches what they do and use. It's, and there's, there's an opportunity for innovation or we feel like something could be done better or something that we can bring to the table will go do it. I mean, not going to go make a trail camera, you know, that would like a big pivot like that. But, you know, anything that we feel is, you know, critical to the mobile hunting experience, we envision ourselves contributing. Yeah. Awesome. Awesome. All right. So a guy walks into a store or he's online and he's searching for, he hears this and he's searching for a new saddle. He's like, okay, I want to go, I want to go check out saddles. Why should that guy consider latitude? Well, if he's in a store looking at him, I, I would suggest, you know, try everyone that's on the shelf there. You know, hopefully that particular retailer has some sort of poll that you can demo the stuff on. I mean, we have a ton of awesome retail partners that we work with now and we always, you know, try to help them get a demo station set up. Because ultimately like, you know, saddles are a very personal item. Just because we like what we make doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be right for you. I mean, another brand might, it might just be better for you. It might be more comfortable. It might fit you better. It's, it's very challenging to make a saddle that works for everyone that it's impossible. Right. Because we're all different sizes and shapes. I mean, look at how many different trims of jeans, you know, Wrangler has for men's jeans. That's a great way to think about it. And because these, these wear in the same place on your body, ultimately. So my suggestion would be try, go to the store. If, you know, your local archery pro shop carries these things and try them all. And make sure that, you know, you put each one through its paces on that pole, try different adjustment settings, ask, you know, the staff in there, you know, what do I got to do to make adjustments to get more comfortable with each of these. And, and figure out what you like. And it might be ours. It might not. You know, but beyond that, you definitely want something from a company that is reputable. Does their testing. You don't want something sewn in a basement. You want something that has been put through third party testing. You know, it has quality standards, you know, typically the USA made products have a little bit tighter control on that. So I would always lean in that direction for these because they are, I mean, they're your safety harness as well. So, yeah. Yeah. You know, find something that's safe and reputable and then try them and see what, what is most comfortable and, and feels the best. So perfect. Now, if people want to go find out more information about latitude or they want to watch some videos about latitude, where should we send them? We're really easy to find latitude outdoors.com. We've, you know, got all the different social channels. We've got our YouTube and, you know, Facebook, Instagram, all that stuff. Other guys on the team managed that and put out all that content. That's not really my area of expertise. I'm working on the product stuff, but we've got, we've got a few new guys on the team and they're doing an awesome job putting out some great educational content. Jake Bush is on our team and he just did a whole web series slash pot couple with some podcasts now called in session where he's doing a lot of. He's traveling around the country and filming with some different experts in the hunting space and how they approach different situations on public land and targeting different beer and stuff. There's a lot of cool content. And then we've got a new, you know, look for actually a new more on the entertainment and the things we've got a show called grit coming out, which will be available on waypoint our YouTube carbon TV here in early July. The first episode will actually drop so and that will just kind of go through and follow us in our fall season last year. So that is, you know, focused on Jake Alex and myself, kind of the founders traveling around hunting on public land, kind of kind of showcasing, you know, who we are as people and, you know, just showcasing us using the gear because we're not just building stuff in a box or building stuff that we use and because we are the customer and we're passionate about it. So we just want to share that with people and I tell you, the guides that we're filming and that are on our team putting it together, they're doing an amazing job. It's going to be really cool and fun to watch. So look for that coming up here soon. But other than that, we're pretty easy to find. Just reach out anytime we have a chat bubble on the website. You can reach out anytime. A lot of those go directly to us and we can get you squared away with any questions you might have. Well, hey, man, Kevin, I really appreciate you taking time out of your day to hop on and school us on latitude and good luck the upcoming season, man. Yeah, appreciate you having me on, Dan. Ben fun.