What's going on everybody and welcome to another episode of loan ducks, gun dog chronicles.
I'm excited for this episode.
We got to chat with Jake Smith, the editor of Pointing Dog Journal, Retriever Journal,
and just Labs Magazine, super down to earth, really great guy.
My main takeaway and I hope yours is too, is the relationship we have with hunting and
the people and dogs we hunt with.
Super great guy, also old gun guy.
That's just something that I love is someone who enjoys old guns and the nostalgia behind
it.
But first, let's jump into patreon.com forward slash loan duck outfitters.
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And I want to announce we are doing a patreon only hunt in December at treasure island outfitters
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free hunt.
So one of our community members is going to get to come on this hunt for free.
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Next up from the duck blind to that holding blind baby.
It's Purina.
I've got my first hunt test coming up next week actually and I'm really excited to get
the dogs back out there and and just see all the hard work over the last two months coming
off of winter break and hunting season.
They're starting to get back to where they were before hunting season and the old pro
plan fuels that beast of burden.
Next up Gunnar Kennel's man's best kennel.
Super great company made in America and are continuously innovating products for us guys
in gals.
I'm excited for what's to come in 2023.
Stay tuned.
But if you need to get your dog into a Gunnar Kennel shoot us a DM on the old Instagrams
at loan duck and we'll help you out next up shooter shoot baby.
This man that can't cartridge.
I've said it over and over and over again.
Kevin and I need to sling some clay birds and our last guest Lars is a shooting instructor
on the wing.
So he helps coach you well upland hunting bird hunting duck hunting to become a better
shot and I can't wait to sling some bismuth downrange at those feathered foul.
Next up DT systems the collar that we've been using over the last few months testing
out and monkey and with is the 18 20 DT has been in the game for over 30 years cutting
edge state of the art technology.
Really glad that there we are a part of their team and they believe in us to bring you guys
good e-colors.
Check out DT systems on Instagram Facebook and their website to learn more and the new
revamp loan duck outfitters website that should launch here in the next week or month.
I don't know every time I say a week it's going to be a month.
So take that for what it's worth.
But we'll be having DT systems on the website for you to purchase.
Check them out baby.
All right.
Let's get in the show.
Jake welcome the show do me a favor.
Tell everybody a little bit about yourself.
Well, thanks for having me on guys.
Let's see here I have been working with the pointing dog journal the retriever journal
and just labs magazines for 22 years now started as a managing editor working with my father
Steve Smith.
Long time outdoor writer probably probably one of the countries most well known living
we know right now was very good friends with Jean Hill and Michael McIntosh and a lot of
familiar names from the from the sporting world and he edited those people he published
those people he was hunting buddies with those people so I kind of I'll never forget.
I think when I was 12 years old playing trivial pursuit with Jean Hill in our living room
we're really in second Michigan and when he was there for a grass and woodcock trip with
my dad so I was I was in South Dakota at the time I my wife and I work in our master's
degrees in wildlife sciences and I had been writing ever since high school had written
a nonfiction dot cunning book with my brother while in college and so I always kept writing
kept editing and when a job opened up at the magazine I was able to come back to Trevor
City Michigan where where we live my adopted hometown we moved up here when I was in high
school and was able to work with dad for about the next 17 18 years which was which was great
he taught me everything about the magazine business.
Dad doesn't he didn't own the magazines so he was the publications director at a company
called Village Press and it's a larger company printing press in Trevor City and he helped
head up the magazine division so we have about 20 to 30 some magazines but then we edit ourselves
the dog ones so it's it's kind of nice when he retired I stepped into his role both as
editor of those three magazines plus as the publications director so read a lot of words
it's always nice when I was just working on the next issue of pointing dog journal today
the May June issue and it's it's always nice when I can kind of take off my supervisor
cap and put on my editor cap and get to look at great photos of dogs and and read stories
from from a lot of of today's really really great writers.
In addition continue writing with with with books I have a I have a fiction novel that
came out several years ago so I try to do a lot of writing currently myself my brother
and a couple of other outdoor writers have two volumes out right now that are a collection
of hunting and fishing stories big game upland waterfall trout fishing pan fish fishing you
know just kind of general outdoor stuff and we kind of harkened it back to some of the
older outdoor literature that we weren't really finding these days since a lot of it
has has come to the digital world things that were maybe reminiscent of stuff like
our dad used to write and Jean Hill and Corey Ford and Gordon Macquarie and those stories
we grew up on and we felt we all turned around and realized we were pushing on 50 years old
and and have quite a few experiences ourselves so we put together a couple of those volumes
and we just self published them on Amazon they were more for ourselves to kind of share
with one another and with and with friends and they have been so fun to work on and it's
just it's it's almost cathartic to be able to sit down and just just write for the fun
of writing sometimes without it you know saying I have to place this story you know it's
it's it's been a it's been a nice change we're kind of starting to assemble things for a
third volume of that and and that's cool so those have been fun yeah what are they called
well so we kind of so we kind of call ourselves the Lost Branch Sportsman's Club and what it
is my my brother and I and my brother and I are like absolutely the he's my favorite
hunting partner in the world and and fishing partner and then a good friend of his name
John Osborne who was written for the magazines and he has a fly fishing couple of fly fishing
books out and then another fellow by the name of Greg Fry who is a rights more for Michigan
publications he's a school teacher also we got to banter and back and forth and it got
to be just kind of this Greg said we felt like we were forming a tree fort club or something
and so we just started kicking things around and the first one is called Northwest of some
place and the second one is called Another Day of Field and they're really short I think
the first the first book has three stories from each of us and the second one has four
so those are you know they're available on Amazon but again we kind of did it for ourselves
but then we got we've had some stores pick it up some other magazines carry it I believe
sporting classics has been has been ordering some from us and carrying it I pulled it up
doing some goo savvy googling on the fly and sporting classics store.com has them
yeah it does remind me of a Gordon McCory and like the old duck hunters yeah we we had
kind of felt that a lot of the storytelling since it has moved a lot of it to YouTube
and and social media that was it was a little bit more sort of I guess that that real time
kind of in your face sort of sort of feeling and none of the four of us are that savvy
we you know we all the only reason I take my phone with me is so that you know I it's
an emergency lifeline and I think I make a comment in in one of the in one of the introductions
that you know when we when we went out when we were younger to hunt and fish that was
the whole point of doing it was to get away from everything and now it seems like the
trend is to bring everybody with us into those kind of intimate places that we we really
just kind of wanted to be alone and unplug for a while so we kind of felt that you know
a throwback to just some kind of traditional stories would kind of speak to that a little
bit.
Now are they fictional?
No, there might be a couple of fiction ones here and there we try to stay away from fiction
we usually sort of all you know I think Chris has my brother Chris has has won in the in
the first and we kind of all talk about it we're like hey I got a really cool idea but
it's fiction are you guys okay with that but pretty much all of them are are are factual
yes.
Well I struggle with the you know I guess on some respects like we we have social media
we have a YouTube we have an Instagram we have a podcast and I feel like I like to share
I like to teach I like to document and use creative the artistic side of me to like share
some of this stuff but 100% I would be so cool with just throwing this thing that's called
a phone in the in the pond and being like yeah no this is this is for me this is my
document this is my grouse on I don't need to document all of it and so I wrestle with
it all the time and so I really fully understand where you're coming from just this is I'm
not working right now and I'm hunting yeah and we and you know it's it's kind of tough
with being you know with with steering the magazines too because we need to have have
those digital touch points and you know we need to speak in those channels and everything
I'll be the first to say we don't do it very well I don't do it very well and that I think
that shows but then there's also a part of me that is and I and I do get letters from
readers that you know when the pointing dog journal or the retriever journal shows up
in the mailbox it's like they do the same thing they take the phone they put it down
and they can just sit and read for a while and they don't they haven't we haven't been
blasting them with information every single day I think it dilutes your message a little
bit when you're hitting people over the head every single day with you know five Facebook
posts and you know all of the daily and the magazine comes out and it's like yeah you
know they said something like this just over the last 20 days and it kind of gets tossed
we do we have an email newsletter and that we send out we have lots more non-subscribers
who get our our e-newsletter and it's you know sometimes it's an article usually it's
a sneak peek for an upcoming issue we'll publish an excerpt from an article share the table
of contents but we do one a month that's it you know and our consequently our unsubscribe
rates are like less than a quarter of a percent each time because right when we show up in
your inbox it's oh I haven't seen these guys in a while click and you know people will
check it out and read it so it's it's it's it's another kind of aspect that we advise
on at the company I work at the company I work with on we work with a lot of associations
throughout the state and throughout the nation a lot of times these associations have trouble
keeping their members and they all have a magazine for their as a member benefit think
of like Safari Club International you know they have a magazine presence forever it's
an association they've got a magazine a lot of times these people not not those two but
the you know a medical system for example they don't realize they're in the magazine
business so our company can come in and help them and a lot of times they they're like
we need to email every single day and we're like no you're you're gonna just people are
gonna tune you out and so and I feel that it's even more so sometimes in the outdoor
world because of the additional channels and it's fun everybody loves seeing that you know
hooking a big trout or the candidates come right into the decoys or those videos are
great and there is absolutely a place for all of that but there's also a place to just
have it be quiet too and so that's kind of what we want to speak to with those stories
and and what I'm trying to kind of bring back into the magazines are are some more nostalgic
type stories it's not all nuts and bolts it's not all hitting over the head with where
to go how to make your dog better how to be a better shot there is some more kind of
call back to to the George Bird Evans which you know some of my dad's old stuff which
is just fantastic but then also some of the new writers who can who are crafting some pretty
darn good stories as well we're some of the new writers that you would push our listeners
to like if anyone is listening to this and doesn't know who George Bird Evans is that's
someone you should go and read yeah but who would you say like man this guy or gal is
just killing it right now you should you guys need to look out for this you know it's so
I've there's an inherent bias here because I have I'm responsible for putting out 18
magazine issues a year so when I get home I don't want to read any magazines so I am
not reading a lot of some of the other great outdoor literature out there some of the other
you know great magazines and I know several of the other editors and it's it's not this
big competition you know many of us are friends we've seen each other at the shot show and
things like that and you know we talk frequently sometimes we trade stories on bad experiences
with freelance writers it's it's odd I had one editor write me and he I had published
a story by a guy I had never published before and I'm not going to share names but he wrote
me and he had known my dad of course and he said hey I saw you published a story by this
guy and he goes I want you to know that I was actually working with him on that story
suggested a whole bunch of revisions and then he took it I never heard from him and lo and
behold it shows up in your magazine and I was like I am so so I had no clue that that
history had happened right as it turns out this editor who contacted me he was the guy
who took me on my first bird hunt when I was 10 years old and I shot my first bird over
his dog and so we got to reminiscing and I photocopied the photo out of my journal
and sent it to him and he put it in his magazine and so it's like you know we're kind of this
this brotherhood this this of of people so looking at the people writing for us who who
have been really killing it right now at the top of his game is Tom here the guy is just
I don't know where it comes up with all these ideas frankly he just writes everywhere and
and it is darn good stuff when he when it comes in it's some of the cleanest and if
Tom is listening to this I still have to put in comments though because Tom really doesn't
know where a comma goes sometimes but that's okay the content is great and ice and he's
very involved and he and I had a lot of talk leading up to the book launch too he wrote
the introduction for our second book for us in fact very similar feelings but I see where
he shares it just all the different magazines he's written for from salt water journals to
guns and ammo to you know all of our magazines gun dog well I mean you name it and he has
appeared in it the guy just is a machine John Osborne one of my one of my good friends he
has he has really really up to his game my my brother actually he mainly an artist but
over about the last 10 years he's been writing for a local newspaper but then his writing
has just absolutely skyrocketed just working on a story today from Ryan Sparks he's just
the the and I had worked with him before he published an article a fly fishing article
of mine from and strung a few years ago anyway so we got to know each other and he's like
I'm gonna send some stuff to you one of these days and anyways I was working on it today
and a great mix of photos excellent advice that you guys are gonna love coming out in
the May June issue Scott Linden out west he's another guy who's just a machine cranks
out a lot of content for us and then you know obviously some of the some of the guys who
are still kicking around Don Thomas I have worked with him since I was since day one and
Tom Davis Tom step back from writing every issue and pointing dog journal recently not
through any any ill will or he's like I've just I gotta do some other things and he's
like when the when the fancy hits me I'll write something up well he was off one issue
and then he sent me another story just a few weeks ago so so he'll be back periodically
but Tom is one of those who when he would write or I'm sorry when he would submit his
story I'd go get coffee and just read it but I would hardly edit it I'd have to reform
out a few things because he works on a Macintosh but but that was it and I just put it through
and his historical pieces about old trainers old dogs are just there's some of my favorite
favorite things they that he writes so I know I didn't even touch the you know tip of the
iceberg of the the number of good young writers who are out there now and if any are listening
you know I'd love to get submissions of queries and things like that please shoot in my way
it's you know it's it's it's neat I love I love finding new voices I would offer a caution
to new voices though in that your first articles are not going to be Gene Hill because I hate
to put it I'll put it candidly but nobody cares and nobody knows who you are and so
you need to develop that reputation and that that expertise and that respect by writing
and you know more instructional stuff you know helping teach people develop that trust that
the readers will have in you and then they'll they'll start to care about you know what you
think the ducks look like coming over the decoys and how cool that is you know but it's
very very difficult to start out that way my dad started writing he covered township board
meetings for the local paper when we lived in Saginaw and developed his writing craft
that way and then they asked him to fill in for an outdoor column so we started writing
that like 500 words about things like ice fishing in rabbi I never saw my dad go ice fishing
once but he knew how to interview people he knew how to talk to people and and he just
developed his craft that way I think Michael McIntosh started the same way working either
covering like DNR meetings or something I'm not don't quote me on that but again started
in that in the trenches sort of so to speak with the ease of excessive accessibility today
and apparently a lot of free time that a lot of younger people have that I don't have
they get out a lot more and develop a lot more experience and expertise but the outdoors
is funny in that it's still sort of the to kind of earn some of that respect from others
she's still kind of got to go through the school of hard knocks and kind of prove yourself
a little bit and sometimes that comes through more instructional writing and you know develop
the the the more lyrical craft on the side and then eventually you know sometimes you'll
hit upon a a real zinger that is you know you feel is is really good it helps if you
can develop a good relationship with an editor you know an editor you trust you can deliver
dependable content on time good photo support and if you can't provide photo support at
least provide ideas for photos most importantly you're able to work within an editor's budget
which they're becoming increasingly tighter as paper supplies increase those are all things
that I have to look at how much does our ink cost and that will sometimes determine how
much I can afford on my editorial content budget if you develop that sort of trustworthy
relationship with an editor a lot of times that you know that that guy or gal will give
you a shot they'll give you a thousand words to craft a story a story story you know and
see how it goes.
That's really cool I always wondered how someone would get into it like I'm not a writer in
fact I'm from saying I'm not a writer I'm like trying to work on a dog training book
but I'm not a writer it doesn't come naturally to me I have to put a lot of effort into it
and then it turns out I write like I talk so pretty discombobulated and when a long time
ago I wrote this piece and it was I thought pretty good and I sent it to adopt a bunch
of different people and like you said it was like immediate like auto response almost
like hey this is not going to cut it thanks for your submission and I never tried again
right it's not what it was not my goal so I wasn't persisting and I just thought I just
did something cool maybe they would like it and it's okay like for me it was okay that
it didn't pan out but if someone said this is my life's goal I want to be a writer I
want to write hunting and fishing books slash being the magazines your your advice is I
still think that's great advice for somebody wants to be a dog trainer you can't just say
you are right you have to go through the muck in the mud and the sweat and the tough times
that everyone else did to earn that badge of honor to be almost into like the old boys
club right like it's it's kind of what it is yeah yeah and you know the the best place
if that is someone is listening and it is sort of their life goal or whatever the best
place to start the best place to get your practice is a hunting journal just start you
know and and and move past the numbers for crying out loud this is supposed to be fun
and not a competition okay and not even a competition with yourself move past that if
if you hope to write stuff that explores some of the deeper things about the outdoors you
have to be okay with experiencing some of the deeper things about the outdoors and the
best way to do that is to just leave all expectations back at the truck you know don't don't take
out five bullets and say this is my goal today to give you know five birds with five shot
no don't you you you have to go searching for for what else is out there and a hunting
journal is the best way to start to express that to start to craft that and then do a
lot of reading you know for me it was it was Gordon McCory I don't know if you guys get
the retriever journal or not but the next issue I have a story coming out in there called
a man named pink and it's actually a very old experience that I had with a fellow by
the name of Tom Pink a duck hunting story that my wife and I we went to school together
and it was just it's just it's just kind of a lighthearted story but anyways he would
call my brother and I at college and leave excerpts from McCory on our voicemail during
the duck season I mean that's that's the city that that's how you sort of immerse yourself
in in that world and I still I was just looking through them McCory books the other day
absolutely just absolutely fascinating got a chance to listen to an audio version of
them and and they were great really that's cool that's fantastic I've read is as many
as I can find I there are some of my most favorites I reread them all the time when I
have some spare time when I sit down and just want to like relax and unwind after a week
yep that's usually one of my go-tos yep I love I love a lot of his fishing stories
to on the broul and those those get me pumped I I like writing fishing fly fishing stories
because I'm not surrounded by that all day long even though our company just purchased
American fly fishing magazine on a year about a year ago and we retain the editor John
Shewy that's that's another fellow I I left off my list John has been the editor for American
fly fishing for a number of years he started submitting stuff to pointing dog journal he's
got wimeriners and so we got to know each other that way and so I've written for him
he's written for me and his his stuff that he sends for PDJ extremely well researched
grounded in in you know vetted fact and he's he's doing a great job both on that writing
side but then also in in how we edit American fly fishing so yeah that's that was a nice
addition to our magazine division excited to see how that continues to evolve but yeah
I so I don't involve myself with his I just stay out of his way when it comes to the editing
for that but but I I find myself like liking to write about fly fishing more just because
I'm not surrounded by it all day long sometimes and I mean I'm even surrounded by the labs
here right now so sometimes I'm not break right now but yeah I got I gotta ask what are
some of your favorite mccory stories oh goodness blue bills tied it down that's one of those
okay that one that one that's it's like you just kind of had that you know check that
off but yeah down went McGinty is a good one speaking of fishing ones yeah speaking of
fishing ones boy gosh I have a hard time remembering the names honestly me too I can
tell you all the you know the ones I like I like the one where the guy goes kayak or
canoeing by himself takes a break from work for like three weeks gets lost and nothing
to do for three weeks yep that was that I would I if if I could I would live those three
weeks like and just keep going at adding them on yeah to the end of each other but yeah
his his he had he had a way and and I mentioned it in the introduction of one of our lost
branch books is that he and you know Cory Ford dad Jane Hill they had a way of writing
for I call that they wrote for the every man they just you know the way that they were
waiting what up they weren't these epic hunts they weren't these like bucket list things
they weren't these once in a lifetime trips to Africa or ginormous elk or whatever they
were just they were just our everyday hunts but they had a way as I mentioned before of
seeing what else was there and they just had an absolute wonderful talent in how they conveyed
it and it just it it forced you it just it didn't have a choice it forced you to be back
in your own moments of your everyday hunts and realize that you know if I go out missed
a couple of look back my dog broke point and you know what okay it was fine you know what
did I get to do I got to go walk around outside for a little while I mean it's I have I have
never been a very good shot which is great so that you know it was frustrating when I
was younger but it's I totally appreciate it now because it it forced me to find enjoyment
in in everything else besides the shooting otherwise I had given this up a long time ago
and so I brought my my boys up that way too and and it's it's neat seeing them you know
grow into young men and have those same sorts of experiences where you know they're talking
about the sunrise and they're talking about you know the funny thing our lab Ginny did and
me in a couple of you know Woodduck streak behind just there's streak just out of range
you know and they can they can find so much more than just more trigger it's funny it's
funny you say that it's like well you had mentioned nothing to do for for three weeks
the first third of that story roughly is him just driving and having you know remember
how he puts it but like he doesn't doesn't want to waste the day hurrying or something
like that because there's just so much to it I do love those stories they're phenomenal
yeah and and I have as as my so my oldest son is 21 and my my middle my my other son
is 18 so my older ones he's off a college he was just home last week for spring break
and my other ones getting ready and then I've got it we have a daughter too and all of
us are they're all outdoors man my wife oh geez I think that's one of the reasons I fell
in love with her is because she was just as wack over hunter as I was her dad worked
for the Michigan DNR for like 38 years and one of our first the first time I after we've
been dating for several months you know and I went down to visit in the summer got up at
six o'clock the next morning and we went and banded ducks I mean that was just one of the
things we her and her family did and she's a huge deer hunter sorry about that I went
off she's a huge deer hunter and so going to school in South Dakota together we were
newly married the pheasants and ducks were just we actually did more duck hunting than
pheasant hunting frankly out there and just because it was it was easy you didn't eat
a boat a sack of decoys you sit in the dry grass and you have 10 different species of
ducks will come by you in a day um I want to talk about the dogs of your life okay some
of the memories you know oh yeah I came to Michigan for the first time actually does
a lie this was my second time um I had a wedding that doesn't count I took my girls dog okay
okay okay and I went grouse hunting the morning of the wedding so you just went up in my book
very good yeah dude I was in the wedding too so I had to be back at a certain time to put
the tugs on and go into the wedding but I took my surprise you're still friends with
the person who scheduled a wedding during grouse season but you know yeah yeah but he
let me bring my dog so I was cool and it was just near Traverse City too so I hit uh you
know whether the gems are really any good or not I don't know but I didn't find a single
grouse I I flushed a few woodcock and my setter at that point was like eight or nine months
old and she didn't know what she was doing yeah but that was so that was my first Michigan
experience and then Kevin and I went up to the UP this fall oh nice yeah we really had a nice time
grouse numbers for us weren't crazy good but woodcock were plentiful and we did point and flush
in here and see grouse and I think our party so it was four guys maybe had six grouse by the
end of the something like that yeah which you know heck I'll take that all day right yeah
we put it in four though we that was a lot of that was sunrise to sunset boots on the ground
on the max trying to figure out what we're doing where we're going so one of my favorite hunts
was in the UP and my brother and I went to school at Lake Superior State in Soussaint
Murray so right on the border with Canada and that's where I met my wife too she was in the same
Fish and Wildlife program and um I had just bought that summer a fox 16 gauge first gun I bought
with my own money I was 1918 so it was my freshman year up there or sophomore year and um
Chris was on a field trip for one of his labs they were I think it was a soils class or something
and um a they were going through an intersection and a woman come the other way had a stroke
and hit their van hit their school van flipped it um he was fine but he was pulling kids out of the
van um a couple of kids were pretty we're pretty messed up everybody survived the woman
unfortunately did not um and I remember him calling me because I was up there and I mean I
19 I don't know what to do and uh you know he got back in the next morning he's like we need to go
hunting you know he just I just need I mean he was still still shaken and uh we went to this cover
that was the thickest nasty stuff it was the first hunt that I had with this gun and it poured
absolutely just torrential downpour Chris didn't care he's like I just we need to walk
and we got absolutely drenched did not see a bird of course and it was one of the best hunts
and it was just you were in the middle of absolute nowhere he was extremely close to uh uh you know
losing his life I just I mean a millisecond and uh those are the types of things where you get into
the outdoors and I mean we we it's a tricley shave say you know something will put things in
perspective and then something actually makes you put things in perspective and you really know what
it means um those are the those are the types of things with uh my my my 18 year old a couple
say this was covid ball um didn't get out much everybody was just mad and you know depressed with
all the lockdowns and we got out hunting he got into his first grouse brood never seen a grouse
flush before um never pulled the trigger was absolutely wide eyed and I brought some camp chairs and we
sat and ate cheese and sausage and gave treats to the dog neither one of us touched touched
of the trigger and those are those are the ones that stick with me those those are it's it's
maybe not full hunts but it's moments within hunts that I think you have to be on the search for
you just you just have to be um my dad has always said and I said it earlier that you know this is
all supposed to be fun and I think we lose track of that a lot yeah yeah talk to me about some of
the dogs that you've had in your life that increased the fun of the hunt yeah well I'd like to say my
English my old English said or did but she drove me crazy more than anything my wife got her for me
as a college graduation present and um she and then we took her to so when we we both got master's
degree appointments out to South Dakota right after undergraduate school and uh so we took her out
there you know we uh we ended up getting married around Christmas that year so uh Ali was her was
my dog's name she lived with me my wife lived in in uh a little apartment in college town and and uh
that dog I swear was cat and should have died nine different times she had a really severe uh
autoimmune reaction disease whatever uh temperature spikes is when she was about six months old
um and the vets out there brought her through it and from that point on from when she was a puppy
I was just happy she was around so she was not the best pointing dog um and she ran away in like
standing South Dakota cornfields in you know at dusk and I'm I lost a dog when I was a when I was a
kid when my dad's pointer got loose and was hit by a car so I am absolutely petrified of our dogs
running like a stupid of dogs family song oh one second uh ran away like I said multi a rat poison
um we got her through that uh ran away like I said multiple times and um she was just the most
uh setter you know they they can be aloof and when she went on point it was the most you think
the earth stood still I mean it was just absolutely beautiful um for the first bird she ever pointed
a wild South Dakota rooster was on my birthday and that that year um her first before she was a year
old and I shot it fell in this little wetland and we couldn't find it and my wife and I were
supposed to go to dinner that night and I'm I'm we're back home and I mean I searched all of her and
I just I was just torn up like my dog's first point you know she was my first dog um on my birthday
no less and so I'm like I'm sorry I got to go back out there so I went back out there no gun no
dog no nothing and I got down on my hands and knees and I'm parting the grass and I finally found one
feather and so I went a little farther I found another feather and then I eventually found the bird
and uh like two and a half hours later um and it was and it was still there and uh she lived
till she was 16 and uh she pointed a bird and my in-laws have a shooting preserve in in uh central
Michigan and she pointed a bird she walked out we planted a hen pheasant for she's just kind of
ambled out point of bird and it got up and I was taking pictures and both my wife and my son
missed and I was like oh no her last bird she turned around went back to the house and that was it and
we tried taking her duck hunting out there I tried to make her to a retriever and that lasted one
helpless blueing teal that made the mistake of coming in and she went out sniffed it and looked
at me like you gotta be kidding me and came back and three months later we got a lab and uh so we
had a young lab and and a young setter that grew up together on South Dakota and that was that was
a riot right now um I've got four dogs four labs and only one of them is really my honey and dog
Jin uh Jinny we got her raid as our setter was nearing the end of her life um we ended up getting
another lab as a leader dog for the blind mom so she's a breeder and so we entered their their
breeder host family program and so she came into our home we had three litters here they the
lead bred with leader dog stud dogs we were we we we'll the dogs care take them for about six to
eight weeks and then they go back to leader dogs for their placement and training after she retired
we were able to adopt her um well one of her pups uh the very last puppy she had
uh flunk out he was career changed uh he couldn't he couldn't make it um so they give the option to
adopt to the person was the puppy raiser first and then the breeder family the second so the
puppy raiser had moved out of the country so then they came to us for like us our only chance to
get one of her puppies uh so we brought him home that was that was about six years ago now um
well then a month ago we get another call from leader dogs and a puppy from the very first litter
um who went on to be a guide dog uh was retiring and his owner couldn't keep him um it broke her
heart when we had kept in touch with her um on on social media and she said it broke her heart
she just couldn't keep them and he was population the prison system um so then they called us and
were like really four labs in the house but yeah what are we gonna do we we went got him so we're
good so he's been here a month and um he's enjoying retirement i take him into work uh
back every Wednesday morning it's i call it emotional support Wednesday at work and
i i steady stream of people come by my office and just spend a few minutes with them patnam and
and i'm gonna try to train him up to be a therapy dog um he needs just getting evaluation but
he saved his uh his person's life a number of times she would she would write to us and his name's
cajun and uh he's like you know cajun stabbed me from crossing the street in front of a car today
you know cajun avoided me around with some construction and and all of that and it was it's
absolutely incredible what these dogs know how to do and uh so the the other male uh the the one
who dropped out i've been slowly training him to be a hunting dog um he had he's he's a very sensitive
dog um so i've got to be very very careful with him i took my time with uh force fetch and just i
took like all summer to do it and now he's he's really good and loves it um had his first pheasant
fetch and um and flush a couple of years ago and just is he's enthralled with it so it'll be fun
uh jenny is 12 so it'll be nice to have a dog that's kind of in his prime uh he but again going
back to the uh trying to you know discover something more about the outdoors he's i am not winning any
competitions with him i'll be happy if he comes back i'll be happy if the bird comes back and is
still on it um but uh he watching him run is i mean
labs and goldens with labs especially i think because of the shorter fur are so expressive
and have so much emotion and the the dog is literally happy i mean you can actually just
see the happiness exuding from him and uh i just i spend most of the time laughing when i'm just
walking you know walk along with a gun and i'm just laughing and i'm just watching him just
absolutely enjoy himself um even my my old dog uh when she goes out she jumps around still on two
bad back legs um at 12 years old she jumps and spins and circles and she nips at my hand like
come on faster faster and i am just going to be absolutely heartbroken uh you know when she's not
around to do that anymore but uh yeah it's uh you know the the dog the dogs obviously and with
the with the job too dogs have been such an important part of our lives um i don't know how many vacuum
cleaners we've gone through eventually we just came up we just picked up handfuls of dog hair as
we walk by him in the kitchen uh people come over it's the first thing we tell them don't wear black
clothes they're all yellow labs here um and uh you know pretty much it's it's just that that's
that's what we that's what we deal with you know our life do you ever think you'll do another satter
oh maybe when the kids are gone and i can focus a little bit more i wouldn't bring a
pointing dog into a setting with this many dogs i think simply because i would want to
be able to focus a little bit more uh on the dog and i'm just you know my family is still
young and uh we're just pulled in so many different directions that i mean i feel guilty enough not
you know not taking these guys out for walks uh every single day or you know throwing them the
ball in the yard but uh um and that is one of the nicer things i appreciate about
retrievers compared to pointing dogs is that you can get a lot of work done with a retriever right
in your yard you know they everything with a retriever starts from your side and you know you've
got to do your job so that they can do theirs you've got to shoot the bird so they can they can go
fetch it pointing dog is just the opposite their work is out there it's it's away from you they've
got to do their job first before you can do yours um so the appeal with retrievers right now is that
i can do a lot of the training um hand signals whistle drills all that stuff just right in the
backyard and and it and it will it will translate for the amount of hunting i do and the type of
hunting i do it translates just fine with a pointing dog to just train once you get past obviously the
basics of the yard work and all that stuff um and obedience you have to essentially go hunting and
and right now that is just not in our schedule that is just not in our calendar to be it's all
i can do to get out in september and october i can't uh i can't get out and you know all the other
times of the year as well to train um i think if we did get another pointing dog i might not get
a setter i might try one of the other great breeds um there's a lot of really great uh britney's out
there um i've always loved short hairs i got a of co-worker of my wife uh he's just getting a french
britney right now so i'm kind of anxious to see how how his dog comes along i've had some really fun
experiences with some of the flushing spaniels some of the the new little cockers and english
cockers that are uh around those dogs are just the energizer bunny talk about laughing when
you're walking behind one watching them hunt those dogs just go a while a minute they are so cool
um so i think there there are so many great uh hunting dogs out there i think the quality of
breeding in general no matter the breed has greatly improved i think um i think a large reason of that
is because so many people are wrapping these dogs into their home life that you know the many years
ago breeders took notice and and that that temperament that quality of also being an inside dog being a
family dog i mean the truth is guys that you know that dog's a hunting dog a couple months out of
the year and it's a family member 365 days and so i think breeders took notice of that and i think
you're seeing a just just lots better um more well-rounded dogs for that whole year experience
that we can get with dogs because there is so much more to them beyond um you know just those
those really cool moments of perfection they give us in the field and uh not when they're
puking on the carpet or their dog pad yeah but that goes with the territory so and i'm not really
looking forward to the snow melting up here and what's going to be left behind but uh uh so that'll
be a job for the rover boots but do you grouse hunt with your labs yep yeah i i love it my um in fact
jenny actually prefers upland hunting she she you know we always we always joke that that she calls
duck hunting stupid hunting because she just got to sit there and she wants to be moving so uh
with she does a lot of pheasant hunting on my in-laws preserve and uh and just loves it she's
always stayed close um it's it's weird and i'm sure you guys have seen this when you get your dog out
and with you know several people and uh maybe a couple days later it's just you and the dog and
it's completely different you can just sort of point here you know it's it becomes almost a
conversation um uh when you're when you're walking through the woods when it's just you and your dog
and get more people out there their juices get going they feel they got to cover the line for
everybody and and you're like where did this come from you know and uh uh so when her and i get
out it's it's really neat obviously she doesn't move very fast anymore but um but uh she's just it
was it was funny i shot a woodcock over her um last year and we got into this cover where we
had moved some before and i'm like hey go this way and she stopped and she looked at me and i'm like
this way and she takes a couple steps and she's like she kind of shook and went this way boom
plush to bird like and uh and it was one of the few i few i was able to uh actually hit and uh so
that was that was pretty cool and she brought it back like i told you so it was it was neat
do you still hunt with your fox oh yeah yep that is my favorite gun and everyone
want to hear interesting stories so i bought that at a local gun shop here in Trevor City back in 1994
i believe like i said i was uh i was 19 and uh first gun i bought with my own money and um
back in 2020 so it's my favorite gun i have shot i've shot turkeys with it uh taken
up to Canada and i've shot black ducks grouse woodcock sharp tails perichikens um shot a sage
grouse with it one time the only sage grouse i ever saw um and uh so my older son Pete was um
he was 18 this was covid year he was a covid senior so he lost a lot of his senior year and um
we went into the same gun shop at different location but same gun shop and uh just browsing
and um i'll be darnotheated in a box there and uh i had something that i needed them to look at on
mine and uh so we looked at it and uh at this one on the shelf and it was a spitting image of mine
and so i i looked at it and i had mine in the car because we were on our way to the preserve and
brought it in and the serial numbers were like 1300 apart and i said Pete you have to buy this gun
i said yeah i'm gonna buy it for you i said you have to buy it so he put it on layaway and got it a
few months later the same same way i did so um uh he he loves it and they they are they're probably
i think they're from 1938 there's the um savage box but rate in that kind of transition phase
um and uh yeah that that close in production was it was weird at the same gun shop he bought
it almost the same age that i was and it was the first gun he bought with his own money so it was
it was really neat is there really any also a 16 gauge choked tight and tighter and uh uh
and the first birdie shot with it was a was a turkey that's uh one of the things that you kind of
keep alluding to or whether you know it or not from the minute we started this podcast till now
you you and i have a lot of similarities on nostalgia the the art of it the the
the oldness of it the feel of it the
the feel right it's like romantic in a it is romantic yeah thank you Kevin that's the
word i'm looking for and it's just if i'm lucky enough to have a son someday like that i would
love to have that moment like i can't buy it for you you got to understand why i save up your money
this is this is it's just it's bad ass it's it's exactly what you would want um
i appreciate that about you and i appreciate that you still have your fox and hunt with it all
the time like that's that's how i am i have a bent rib scratch to hack like beat up sometimes
it works sometimes it doesn't old gun and it's just i feel like i'm cheating on it if i take
something else it has to be about stuff that's it is it is so much more it has to be about
stuff that's more than just birds in the bag nothing drives me badder and my brother like
drives him off you know a cliff of hearing things like you know
shot a combined limit of mallards in 25 minutes or whatever like when we boil this this past time
this this tradition this nostalgia down to you know a competition it it just it loses everything
it it just does and we've always gravitated toward hunting with fewer and fewer people
maybe we go to more familiar covers that aren't the best but there are covers you know and uh
it's you said the word you know romantic and and that's true to a degree but but without it being
sappy you know or overly saccharin it's just it's just a i don't a lot of people will say well
that's who i am that's that's not who i am you know i'm a i'm a dad i'm a dad i'm a christian i'm
a husband and that's how i like to define myself first before i'm a magazine editor and
be the the tie to the to the natural world that i've been able to experience through you know the
upbringing that dad gave us when we were really small so now that i can give to my boys feeds all
of those components and it and it and it you know there there's a rejuvenating aspect to it there's
a refreshing aspect to it but there's also the realization that there's even more beyond this
you know and it is in the relationships we have with our dogs obviously but also with our family
members and how sometimes stepping out of our day-to-day world and being able to get back to
some of the basics of just what helps us relax what helps us kind of reconnect it helps us be
better fathers better spouses you know better better co-workers all of that um so you know yeah
seeing the you know seeing blue bills come in right at the crack of dawn is is neat and yes i still
would love to shoot one you know when it comes in that's why i take a gun i mean i'm not like a god
i'm not just out there um you know just to let everything go because i just want to be there no i
i love a duck dinner as much as the next guy and and i love to cook i don't deer hunt my boys and
my wife do i love the butchering the packaging um the cooking all of that stuff um i wish i could
do do more of of all the aspects of that um so there is a practicalness of of going out but it's
i guess for me instead of it maybe being romantic it's it's grounding it's it helps center me and
that's what helps me sort of see kind of what else is out there what what is the more that is
making me feel this way to just kind of make me feel more like me i guess and sometimes that's
only when i'm sitting on the bank you know waiting for a chart to rise um if you're getting caught
in a tree you know i've i've i don't know if you guys have heard the saying i think it's probably
co-opted from something about life's too short to shoot an ugly gun it's probably why i stick with
my fox even though i don't shoot it very well but it's really cool looking gun and i love the history
of it um and life's too short to get upset about the uh you know some of the things that don't go your
way when we're in a in a really cool situation you know uh in a really neat environment um you know
the guys you know three blinds down the row in a managed area are getting all the shooting
and i've seen some hunters and it ruins their day i'm like come on there is way more to life than
than uh then you know mallards should not dictate your happiness or lack thereof you know um so i
guess that would be that's kind of my message i've always tried to get through my writing
and some of the stories that i try to publish is that there is way more to this uh to this thing
we do with upland hunting waterfall hunting living with dogs um there's way more to it and we just
we just kind of need to put our egos aside and
i'm gonna let that resonate for a minute i definitely think that i can look in the mirror
and lose sight of it at times uh especially with competitions and it being my job to do well let them
um and i can lose sight of the moments with the dogs like you are saying like i have those moments
too i have those memories too but i tend to want more perfection i tend to want more uh of them
instead of being in the moment with them and i think kevin just because kevin hunts with me a
lot he would probably say that i need that perspective more often i don't i'm not the one
who's the bag limit and all that to that degree but it's more i need to remember to slow down and
enjoy the sheer fact that i'm out there and that's i think you said the magic words right there
is slow down and i have taken to uh i call it my truck time when i when i get to spot is in especially
fishing um get to the spot and i get out and i i i've taken to unloading my fly fishing vest
every single time i take out all the fly boxes i take out and i put i have this old Winchester
ammo box that i put everything in it goes from my truck to the closet you know whenever i go fishing
and when i get to the spot i open it up and i load up you know i'm like oh i'm gonna fish
dry flies and you know soft hackles today and so and i just sit on the tailgate and i slow down
and that alone that that alone uh it it sounds simple sometimes it's difficult to do because you
want to you want to beat the guy to your spot you know first you want especially fly fishing
boy you want to get on the river and get to the good to get to a good spot i see it more in salmon
fishing and steel head fishing because you're catching 20 pound fish and there's only you know
so many places to do that um but my i have taken to really liking my truck time and uh and and at the
end coming back taking my time taking the waiters off you know like i like i mentioned sitting in
camp chairs with my son and just munching on some sausage and and all that but don't get me wrong
that the you know i like i said i still like to shoot a bird and catch a fish as much as the next
guy um and there is a place for those competitions especially um in in developing the dogs the breed
um i i mean that is why we have such fantastic uh lavitors now is trace it right back to the to
the advent of the field trowel game you know those dogs were the breeders they were the you know
they're just just like horse racing and uh that's how we have gotten so many good genetics um
is because it was the best of the best and obviously you needed a way to to determine that right
where i guess i where i start to get concerned about that and maybe that next generation coming
up is when that mentality sort of infiltrates what should just be a kind of a a fun day you know
you guys going out together uh you know that my brother and i going out together that
that stuff never it it doesn't enter into the equation you know i mean we've seen ducks come in
and and sometimes they've landed and chris and i have looked at each other and he's like why
didn't you shoot and i said well i thought it was your shot because we we take turns when we shoot
and he's like i didn't want to i i just it was cool seeing them come in you know and then the
next bird comes in and it's like you know all hell breaks loose because we were
that very but for whatever reason that time we did you know and so it was it was our choice it's
it's almost like a little catch and release hunting sometimes you know and and uh uh so it's
i i like i said i i i have grown to to to learn to appreciate some of some of the extra things
about the outdoors um some some people and i've been around my fair share of of hunters who are
really good about talking that game and appreciating it but when they have a limit then the sunrise is
beautiful or the sunset's beautiful and if they don't man eat sometimes i have seen guys especially
like at a lodge or something like that go to you know treating the waitstaff terribly and just
being crude and being mean to their dogs all because the birds didn't come in or they didn't
shoot they got their limit they're the nicest person you met and so it's it's just i've tried to
just flip-flop that and you know if you getting a bird or getting a limit um as kind of icing on the
cake as as the gift that it really is um that we're able to experience um and getting it to do
with dogs i love with people i love um with equipment i love i get unusually attached to
things like my box shotgun and a pair of old leather hunting boots and i feel like i'm carrying a lot
of tradition with me um when i kind of take those things out uh in the field um so it's uh yeah i
you know i i will uh i will pop a trigger at every woodcock that goes up in front of me mostly
because i know they're going to be perfectly fine um and i've got a few extra bullets to spare but
if they don't fall it's not the end of the world it is not the end of the world if my dog drops the
bird a foot in front of me okay she doesn't come to heal okay you know it's it's fine i see one of the
my especially now that she's older uh with jenny when we shoot a pheasant you know and i train her to
come to heal sit deliver everything and now she savors it you can tell it's it is the darndest thing
she'll i will shoot a pheasant she'll fetch it and she comes back she gets about 20 yards away
from me and she walks and she sauchers and she's she's just savoring it you can tell and so i'm like
i need to savor it too you know what so i'll get down on one knee and i let her come in and
and she just stands there and she looks at me like you know this is the best moment of my life and i'm
like it really is it it really is that's cool and it just there are so many people who will just
snatch it up and put it in their bag and keep marching and i think this ward is worse off for
if for that mentality i i really do this is a this is a really cool thing that we are able to
partake in and experience it um a lot of the the industry is tremendous in just look at the
statistics from the shot show and and pheasant pheasant pheasant about the kind of dollars that
hunting and fishing add to our economies it's huge and with all of the
political aspects of everything whether it comes to guns or access or
um just you know things like anti-hunting and and all of that we are on display all the time
our literature is on display it is being consumed um it's out there and we can say yeah well they
got a problem they can you know go jump off the dock and that is one way to look at it obviously
um and and sometimes that's how you maybe have to handle it but it doesn't have to be the first
way you handle it doesn't have to be the first reaction and so i don't think we lose anything
when we just carry ourselves with a little more civility a little more respect for the environments
we're in um i think that goes a long way um it may not convince everyone it's never going to
convince everyone um but it's going to certainly take a lot of stress off our minds which is kind
of why we're doing that but i really really enjoyed hearing about your passion for the outdoors
and the stories about your your children and your brother and it makes me relate very much so
because of mine and Kevin's relationship and and what we do outdoors together and and with our dogs
you know um do me a favor again tell everybody where they can find you if they're an aspiring
you know outdoor writer you know as you had already mentioned like you know you got to earn your
dues but you seem like the type of guy that if if someone really really really cares about this
becoming something special i feel like you're the type of guy that could be a mentor that doesn't
mean 800 people send an email tomorrow yeah i'll start sending some of your way to weed out so yeah
yeah no i probably won't i don't check email so uh but um you know if it's it's really their
passion i feel like you would be just a gentleman um to coach a little bit and i and i know that
you can't do that for everyone so please know that i'm not saying literally everyone who thinks they
can write a twitter tweet uh send your stuff to his way but um you you are a gentleman and and i
hope someday it would be really cool if me you Kevin and Tom Keir could get together in the world
oh gosh chase around some nogs it's odd i've i've known Tom you know five six seven years now i
have never met him in person we were supposed to be at a at a conference uh this past week and it
got canceled and uh so yeah i was it was i was very grateful for him to make the introduction so
websites um the the easiest way that you can find us is at pointindogjournal.com
retrieverjournal.com and just labs magazine.com now i'll caution you just labs it's it's all geared
for the family lab there's no hunting in it and the the only reason that is is because we have
the retriever journal which is all about the on-tube retriever so we wanted people to subscribe to
both magazines um the the honor the family gets retriever journal the rest of the family gets just
labs um just labs obvious uh uh alina was was named and started uh we my dad and i started that
magazine about two weeks after i started working for the for the company and it was based off of
the book the hero just labs for willow creek press that sold i don't know half million copies or
something like that um so anyways my contact information will be on there somewhere um there is a link
for if people want to request writers guidelines um but what would be awesome too is also on those
websites will be a link where anyone can request a no obligation issue it's just a for me fill out
um you can select one or any of our sporting publications that's pointing dog journal retriever
journal just labs and american fly fishing as well um fill out the form on the drop down menu it'll
say like where did you hear from hear about us and there's a selection called podcast you can do that
it will it will let us know that that uh uh that you heard about us through this podcast and um
and yeah we'll get an issue out to you um and yep my my email address should be on there where you
can write i would encourage people to uh if you do have stories to share to first ask for the
writers guidelines and don't just don't just send cold finished manuscripts like i did and they got
tonight a little a little trade secret yeah is that a lot of times uh an editor when they see a
finished manuscript it's a lot the the knee jerk reaction is it's a lot harder to work with a writer
on something that they've finished and have probably gotten really attached to um so it's better to
work with queries uh ideas things that you know i have an idea to write about this and and include
three or four of them a lot of times if you're not very familiar with the magazine or you haven't
been a subscriber we may have to reject something simply because we just covered it two issues
ago um so we have some recency that we have to look at but it saves you time but it also editors
like that because it may allow us to suggest perhaps a different angle um like yeah we may have covered
it from this angle a few issues ago but if you take this topic and cover it from this angle
now we're getting somewhere um a cold unsolicited manuscript is a tough sell it just it really is
because it's got to hit all of those points um in order for an editor to take the risk especially
if it's with someone new and a lot of times working on that back and forth with someone new with
something they've already written can be very time-consuming and so a query kind of allows the
editor to have some input right on the ground floor and maybe steer uh steer someone in the
right direction that's awesome advice i appreciate it i appreciate your time um i hope you have a
great spring summer and get ready for the antics of the fall with the newer dog and i hope that
jenny gets another hunting season under her belt would you yeah you know we've kept her trim uh if
i can offer a bit of dog advice do not let your dogs get overweight uh she is she has lived as long
as she has uh because we've kept her uh very trim her her back end she's not carrying a lot of extra
weight she's got one hip dysplasia and one partially tornicruy shit that we have been able to treat
without any form of surgery uh simply because of the weight um so be your dogs on the lean side guys
so excellent advice thank you so much for your time it was really great to get to know you and uh
we'll have to do this again and talk more uh maybe even into hunting season and if kevin and i come
up to michigan we'll make it happen absolutely absolutely and you guys should really get in touch
with uh with my brother chris very well know a wildlife artist i'll send his uh uh his information
to you as well um he you know him being able to talk about the wildlife art aspect i think you
guys would find fascinating so let's do thank you well thank you thanks everybody for tuning in
great to meet you guys
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