E 166. How to ethically raise puppies with Megan Comfort

What's going on everybody and welcome to another episode of Lone Ducks, Gundog Chronicles. I'm going to take a 10 second break and say thank you to you all for tuning in to all our episodes and being loyal listeners in a community on Instagram and Patreon and everywhere where this podcast wouldn't be doable without you, the listener. So thank you. We've got an awesome episode today with Megan Comfort from Torx Labs. She's a breeder of dark yellows, fox rats, chocolates, northern Minnesota, super knowledgeable, and we break down the trials and tribulations of breeding, the process of how to pick a mom and dad to make the best puppy possible. We talk about how to do an entire delivery basically like in depth from the minute their temperature drops to the minute puppies come out when things can go wrong with the mom, like super in depth on breeding with her and just getting to know her was awesome. So I hope you enjoy this episode. But first you know we got to do patreon.com forward slash lone duck outfitters. This is the community where you support it. Like if you learn something from this show, if you are on Instagram and you learn something from us or YouTube and you want to support the show, it's like buying me and cabin a beer, jump on there. Plus you get to enter to win a hunt with Kevin and I and a bunch of other patreon members. So jump on there. What are you waiting for? Link is in the description below. Next up is our forest fetch course. One of our top questions asked on how to get your dog to bring the bird or bumper and deliver it nicely. It just dogs mouthy on a bird. Dog won't pick up a bird. Dog runs away with this. Whatever the case may be, we developed a start to finish program so that you can feel comfortable and confident in forest fetching your dog. The link is in the description. Give a click. Check it out and we're here to help you along the process. And lastly, loaneduckoutfitters.com. It's actually about to drop with a new revamped website in the next couple of weeks. New gear, way more products to help you train your dog. So stay tuned, check that out and we will drop it on Instagram and Facebook and everywhere when it's live. But check it out, loaneduckoutfitters.com. Next up from the duck blind to the holding blind. Hey, it's Purina, the food that fuels the truck of loaneduck. We talked a little bit about nutrition for mama dogs with Megan and she is a loyal feeder of Purina Pro plan. And so we talked a little bit about the nutrition for mothers and the puppies so that they grow up healthy and happy and she feeds Purina. She actually feeds the 3020. So check it out. Next up, gonner kennels, hashtag man's best kennel baby. You know it when the it's the fan. It's the kennel that's keep going to keep you and your dog safe. They came out with the 30 pound food crate. Okay. This is wicked helpful on your hunting trips. Patreon hunting trip possibly, but you're going away for four or five days. They can hold up to 30 pounds of food, easy to store, easy to pack away and keep safe. Water tight, air tight, all the good stuff. Dogs can't get in on accident and mow down the food, gonner food crates and the gunner kennels. If you'd like to get into something like that, you can slide into the DMS and we'll help you out. Next up. Mmm, man's man. That can't cartridge baby. I got a date tomorrow night. I got a date Kevin with my browning, satori with my browning, satori and some kenn 12 gauge, seven and a half. Slinging. Slinging. Well, sorry, you're probably busy with Jack, but we're going to shoot some sporting clays. My goal is twice a month, bare minimum once a month, go to sporting clay course and I'm going to be slinging some Kent downrange at the sporting clay course to get me and the old satori ready for duck season. You should too because if I'm slinging bismuth downrange, I want to make sure that I'm accurate and then when I hit a duck, you know that bismuth is going to do its job. Next up. DT systems. It's the e-calar we've been using for the last six months now. Yeah, about six months. Been a wild ride. About six months. Super great people. They've got some really cool stuff coming up that I'm excited to be a part of, but we've been using their 1820. Our friends, Kat and Ethan at Standing Stone Kennels, they've been using DT for years, introduced it to us and the 1820 is going to fit 99% of the duck hunter, dog trainer for the yard, for the house dog and for the field get you and your dog prepared for duck season. So check them out at DT systems. All right. Let's get into the show. Megan, welcome to the show. We've tried to get this bad boy rolling for about a year now and I'm so thankful that you know, I have the chance to get with us and join us on the show and tell everybody a little bit about yourself. Okay. My name is Megan Compert and I am one of the main breeders at Torx Labs. We are located in northern Minnesota in a tiny town called Salle and we're only about 20 miles from the start of the Mississippi River. God's country, as I like to call it. Yeah. And yeah. And very good. So I've followed you on social media for years. I can't even put a number on it. Like when I got in the game, I feel like you were in the game. So how long have you been breeding dogs? So I am going on my ninth year, but I have a very unique story. My aunt and uncle actually started the Kennel Torx Labs, Stephen Linda Torderson. And I graduated high school, graduated college. My husband and I had just got married. I went to school for marketing and loved it. I had been managing a bar full time and my husband went into school for criminal justice and realized in the grand scheme of all the crazy stuff that's happening in that world, he decided it wasn't something that he really wanted to do. So he went, he was working security full time and my aunt asked us if we'd be interested in working with dogs. And I had seen them, I grew up with them. I mean, they just lived 20, 30 miles from us. So I helped out with the dogs when I could, when I was younger. I mean, I don't know how many birds I threw when I was eight years old at field trials and hunt tests. And I didn't even know what I was doing or what I was getting into, but they needed help. And I got a sandwich and maybe 20 bucks for the day. So I was in it, right? Good living. Yeah, and I also realized, you know, how much of a commitment it is. It's not something that you can just be done at five o'clock and, you know, close the door and walk away from it. So I knew that it was going to be a really hard decision if we wanted to go into it. So what we decided was we would buy a dog from them. Her name was Reba. She was a year old when we bought her. And we said, let's have one litter with her, see how we like it. And if it's something that we love to do, then maybe we'll talk about kind of being business partners with them and taking over eventually, et cetera. So that was the agreement. And shortly after we bought Reba, a house went up for sale actually next door to Stephen Linda. We have a little house on 10 acres, they've got a big house on 38 acres and 35 acres of the land is completely fenced in for the dogs. There's two big fields and a nice pond. So we can do a lot of training out there. We can just let the dogs be dogs and know that they're safe. So things just kind of fell into place for us. So Reba had her first litter and she was bred to Tanner and Tanner is just, I'm still obsessed with that dog. I call him lover boy, but they had 14 puppies. Dang girl. Yeah. And at the time I was still, I was still working full time at the bar. My husband was still working full time doing security. He was on overnight and Reba did not make enough milk for those 14 puppies. So we had to bottle feed them every two hours. We had group A with seven pups. We had group B with seven pups. We were taking weights three times a day. We were living on no sleep. Like I think we'd like shut our eyes and we would have to go outside type of thing. It was like having 14 newborns at home. And when the, it was time for the puppies to leave all but one survived, which was pretty significant. And when that puppy passed, man, it was heart wrenching. I cried for hours actually. Wait a minute. Probably days. All right. So we're going to talk about this later in the podcast. Okay. The first experience was not a good one. No, it was not a good one. But this was like your trial. Yeah. Do I want to continue doing this? Exactly. So we're in not only that, but Reba got sick. She had coccidious, which is pretty common if dogs are really stressed and this was her first litter. She had 14 puppies. The puppies got it. We were, we got them through that. And so it was wild. It was just absolutely like holy buckets. Can we do this? Can we actually be sane and continue to raise dogs because it was very emotional. And what did it for me was I had somebody come to look at the puppies. She said I wasn't quite ready for a dog. She had dealt with infertility issues. And she was there with her daughter to look at the puppies. And she said that when she was struggling to get pregnant herself, she had got a dog. And that dog lived, it was her best friend. It helped her through all the things. And that dog had passed. So this is why she came to look at dogs, but she didn't think she was quite ready. And her and I were talking in the yard. It was a gorgeous spring day in Minnesota. I will never forget this. It's like plastered into my mind. And the little girl, she was like two years old and took off across the yard. And that little puppy followed her. And the mom looked at me and just started bawling. She was like, I think I'll take her. And I started crying. And like in that moment, it wasn't a sadness of me getting rid of the puppies. It was me sharing the joy with this family. So that's when Linda asked us if we wanted to keep doing this. I was like, absolutely, like it made it all worth it. So that's kind of how we got started. That's an unreal story. And again, we'll talk about it later, but yeah, everyone has this rainbows and butterflies of they get a dog. They love this dog. They think it's the best dog since sliced bread. And so I want a dog out of it or they think they want to be a hobby breeder. And what they don't realize is it's freaking stressful. It's there's there's death. There's no sleeping. That bills that you are hoping you don't have to spend, but you have to budget for. And it's not easy. And so I hope as we progress with the podcast, we can dive into a little bit of that as an educational awareness, a PSA, if you will. But yeah, what a wild, sad and like a cox idiot. That's so common. It's a common that it's like almost every dog has it. It's kind of like Giardia too, right? Like a dog has it. And when stress occurs or a diet change or they're fighting a virus or whatever, like it's going to flare up and so having a litter bingo bango, like it's in the soil. It's in your yard. It's in everyone who's listening to this podcast yard. How do you really? Can you for people who may not know like what it is, how their dog gets it, what not? Like can you just dabble in that, please? Yeah, it's basically a bacteria that lives in the digestive system, primarily the stomach. And when your body is stressed, sometimes that it's bad bacteria, but it's good if it's under control. But when it's when the dog is stressed, just like humans, sometimes those bad bacterias can kind of fester and get worse. So thankfully it's pretty easily treatable. If you catch it right away, however, especially on newborn puppies, I mean, they develop really bad diarrhea, you'll never forget the smell of that. If you, I hope that nobody has to encounter it, but you'll never forget the smell. And it's clear that pretty quickly, but the puppies are pretty fragile and they can go downhill very fast if you're not completely on top of it all the time. So yeah, I mean, it's just, it's there and it's going to happen at times and thankfully we haven't really experienced it a lot since then. But at least I know how to deal with it now. Yeah, absolutely. So Reba, she's the first, first one, did you attempt a litter number two, like talk to us about the process moving forward? Yeah, so she had that litter and bounced back incredibly and she her second litter, she had 13 puppies. It was just wild. We were so excited and that time she was bred to Tanner again. She was just such a fun dog. Well, she's, she's still with us. She just turned 10 in March and you would never guess it that girl acts like she's six. But when, as a mom, she was a completely different dog. She calmed down. She just like, it was so instinctly like, I need to take care of these babies. But when she was done with the baby, she was done. She didn't want anything to do with it. And now she's 10 and like the grandma of the house and she hates puppies. Whenever I pups in the house, she'll go on the crate. Like she's like, I am not dealing with this. I did my time. I'm not doing it anymore. So it's kind of funny to see how she has matured since we've patterned. And I mean, the second we retired her, she has had that attitude towards puppies. She's like, I'm done. Somebody else's job now. That's so funny. That's so funny. I have a girl, a female named Cruz, mama Cruz. And she was like our flagship female. And I'll give a little background on, you know, my trials and tribulations real quick. So I bought a dog. The classic person that I just defined was like, I want a dog out of my mail, right? Like every two. So I do all the health tests, his stud pedigree, great dog, what got me started in the game. Bad luck. He had hip dysplasia. So never, you know, bred him. And that was it. Second female was Memphis. And everyone who's listening to the show knows who Memphis is and forever she like never came into heat. They were silent heats. It would be like a flash in the pan, heat cycle, or we're going to master nationals or, you know, she ended up with a tick-borne disease and the medicine she was on wouldn't do well with puppies. Like every time it was like a potential, something we couldn't do, right? And so, you know, it doesn't work out like you plan. And we did end up having one letter from her and the puppies are about 10, 11 months old now. Fantastic. And I'm thankful that we could do it. And so it worked out in the end with her, but like people think that, oh, we can do two, three, four letters. I'll make X amount of money at it. What a great investment. And it's like, oh, I have much money. I spent on that dog at the vet. Haunt tests. You know, she had with that tick-borne disease, we did all sorts of like medical treatments for her to like get her back in an athletic shape. I mean, that stuff was, I probably could have bought a truck, you know what I mean? So sure. You just have to understand that things don't work out as you plan, but then we get crews and crews had four letters for us, 12, 12, 10 and 11. And she was like a breeder's dream. Oh, she was a mate and she like you said, like sponky master hunter, past the master national, jammed a cue, like bad to the bone, check. And then as soon as she had puppies, it was like, you had to like drag her out to go potty. Yeah. She did not want to leave them. She was super sweet, amazing mother and brought us a ton of really great puppies and made a lot of people really happy. That is a very cool part that you brought up with your story of just like, you know, people, I'll throw this out at you. Like how many people have said like, oh, how do you get rid of them? It's like by eight weeks. I'm ready, baby. Yeah. Yeah. Like I said, my first litter, that was really tough. Like I cried every single puppy that left this place. I cried. I'm like, I'm going to miss him. I hope they update me. And you know, over the years, I have kind of transferred that sadness into joy because I know, I mean, I've got six dogs in my house right now. Like they, we rotate them through. We, they're not just kennel dogs. Like I know how much of a family member that these dogs become. I don't care if your dog is with a trainer. You're missing them. You know, it's their family members. And so now instead of looking at it as a heartbreaking thing that those puppies are moving on, I'm like joyful and excited to see what these puppies do in a new home. Like I've got a puppy just left last weekend and there's a young girl who's going to do agility stuff with it. And like, so it's hard. How can I get sad at that? You know, this girl is doing dog stuff as a teenager and that puppy is going to be so loved and going to go on to do successful things and be a family member for somebody. So it's just, it's not sadness for me anymore. It's just like excitement and obviously there's some like nervousness. You hope that everything is okay and that they're able to do what you expect them to do. But overall, it's just like, oh man, and when I get updates from puppy buyers, I just, it's the best thing ever. I tell them all the time, don't thank your buggy me. I don't care if you send me a picture every month, I will be ecstatic to see it. So it's, it's cool. It's such a fun thing to be a part of. But there is like you said, a lot of trials and tribulations and times that I think like, can I keep doing this for my mental health? But it always comes back to it. So yeah, it's really like puppy go home day is so worth it a lot for at least my client tell it's either their first dog ever, like a younger person's first dog ever. Maybe they're 24 or 25. Like I was getting my first dog. So that's like I relive it with them. It's a brand new husband and wife that are getting like their pre baby baby or it's someone that's a little bit older in life and like kids have gone. And so this is like their empty nest hunting buddy. Yeah, looking for a project to do a project to do and like pal around the truck and go hunting with. So it's been a really cool journey watching them, you know, go home and fulfill their, their family and their, their jobs really to, you know, going out and pretty cool. Yeah. So all right, let's, let's get back into you. My bad. You're good. So talk to me more about like as it's developing, you have had some like famous favorites. Let's talk about that. So Rooster Smasher was one that kind of I think gave our kennel a lot of recognition. Linda had purchased him at four years of age and this dog, he was one of, at the time was one of the most decorated dogs in the US. I mean, he was a four time grandmaster hunter and trooper, hunter and trooper champion, master hunter, can I get a citizen like up a hundred there? He just had so many accolades, qualified all ages. So you'd think that this dog would be just wound up and ready to go at all times. That wasn't the case. Rooster was so sweet. He was Linda's shadow. That dog followed her everywhere. And when I mean everywhere, like he would go into the shower with him with her at times. Like he just loved her so much. And he is just, he was so fun to watch compete and just the happiest dog, but also so calm. You know, I think that a lot of times with labs, and I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but some of the field trial lines and stuff, it, when people think about a typical lab, they think, oh, they're just crazy. So is that never settled down until they're over two years old kind of thing? And I just have never really experienced that with a rooster puppy or rooster himself. You know, he just had that typical on off switch, you know, that I think that people talk about a lot, but how many times is it actually there, you know? So rooster, unfortunately, we had to put him down. It was time last winter. He was 14 and a half years old and he, it was a heartbreak for all of us, but we were just thankful to have him a part of our program. It was phenomenal. And Stony, I think I remember Michael Vaughn, when you had him on, he was talking about Stony and Stony was kind of the foundation of our kennel. And something that is really proud for us to say is that we have Rocky, who's Stony's son, and now Parker, Stony's grandson. So we have a third generation breeding in our program. And each one is just as good as better than the beginning of it. And so now we've got, Rocky is still siring letters. I think he's going to be nine this fall in Parker is doing awesome. And I mean, our boys, I could talk about our dogs forever. You'd be bored of it. Tanner still alive, he's 12. He was the master hunter, hunter, hunter, and trooper champion. That's the one I call lover boy. He is so sweet. You know, something that we really strive for in our breeding program is that on and off switch. I want our dogs to go hunt. That's what they're meant to do. But I also want them to be in our homes. I want them to be on our couches. I want them to be safe around elderly people and small children and that kind of stuff. So when you find that perfect blend and that it's just something that when you find it, you have to utilize it because it's not that common in some of these labs, in my opinion, anyways, but yeah, absolutely. So let's talk about when you're picking herrings, you know, a siren. How are you trying to manipulate personalities, drive and desire for hunting, genetics, health testing, how are you trying to work that system to produce what you are producing? Sure. So first thing, do you want me to start like picking a puppy for our program or just like when we're pairing? It's down your show. Okay, well, when I'm picking a puppy, what I primarily look for is confirmation. What I like to see is a nice head because we breed American field bread labs. So sometimes they get a little too long and spindly, if you will. So I like a nice, a nice head and a thick tail. And when you say good bones, I don't know if you'll know what that means, but when you've been doing it long enough, you can tell when a dog has good bones, like they just have good structure. So confirmation to me when I'm picking a puppy for myself to keep for our program, that's my number one thing. The reason I say that is because if I'm doing my job right, every puppy in that litter should have just as much potential as the next, regardless of what their personality is six weeks old. You know, yes, at six weeks old, can you see that some puppies are a little bit timid and some puppies are just like running around like crazy. That's at six weeks. What really matters is the what you do before that breeding. Obviously, we're doing all the health testing, you know, if a hips, eyes, elbows, we're doing the genetic panel, that kind of stuff. So all that's done. We are not breeding, you know, my buddy's best dog ever, who has picked up a hundred birds were breeding dogs who have been proven in the hunt test field to compete, right? So all the work up to that particular breeding is done. So now when you're picking a puppy, I look for confirmation and then the work of it goes into when you get that puppy home or you get that puppy into your house and, you know, I don't know. So that's how I'm picking a puppy basically. As far as parings go, when I'm planning or breeding, there's a lot of factors that go into it. I don't ever do lion breedings. I just don't think that. I mean, there's enough labs in the world that I don't really think it's necessary to do a lion breeding. Some people do and that's fine. That's not what we do. I really try to dive into the personalities of the parents. So just for example, I have Jolie, Jolie Bug as we call her. She is my office dog. She's kind of a bitch. She does not like people right away. She'll bark at you if you've been to our kennel. You know, she's the office dog. She's going to bark at you. And then two seconds later, she's going to pick up her blankets. That's her favorite toys. She's going to do her little wiggle butt and then that's fine. But that dog will do anything to hunt. She loves it. She has no off switch. Like even in the house, she will settle down if everybody's settled down. But if you get up to get a glass of water or a whiskey or whatever, she's in the kitchen following you and she's got something in her mouth. The reason, so this last breeding that I had with her, I bred her to norm. He's one of our up and coming studs. He's a younger boy, but he is so, so gentle. He's so methodical about almost everything he does. He in the field, he loves to hunt and he's doing a great job. But in the house, he's an absolute bum. He plays with the young dogs, but gently, not like a boy normally would. And so in my mind, what I wanted to foster in that is that drive that Jolie has and that kind of off switch that norm has. And it's not always what we dream of, but it's kind of like you're putting the best of both worlds together and let's see what we can get and let's see what we can foster. If I put my work in to do that breeding, what are you going to do when you get that puppy home? If you have a dog like Jolie who never stops, are you going to work more on sitting and staying calm? Whereas some dogs, you want to get them more excited. So to me, it depends a lot about just what your goals are for a particular breeding. On the other hand, I will say that that particular breeding, we're catering to a lot of our clients are wanting a dog that they can hunt with, a dog that can be successful, but also a dog that only gets to hunt where in northern Minnesota, our hunting season is pretty short. On the flip side, we have some breedings that we gear more towards competition dogs, meat dogs, that kind of stuff where I'm going to maybe breed to, let's say, bang, for example, use American Field Champion. If we want to get some more giddy up to our lines, we're going to do an outcross like that. And when I have people wanting a puppy and they plan on just having a companion, I'm just going to say, you know, this is probably not the breeding for you. You know? Yeah. Yeah. I think pairing the people with the dogs is huge. Mm hmm. Absolutely. So with the pairing with people and what they're looking for and stuff, do you choose the puppy for the family or do you say like, Oh, first pick of the litter and blah, blah, blah and do that sort of thing? So I do first pick, you know, who's ever had our deposit with us the longest has first pick. But I'm very honest when I talk about these puppies. So let's say first pick is just a companion dog. They're maybe we'll take it all girls hunting twice a year, but the rest of the time it's going to be a couch potato. Any as first pick and he wants the puppy that's most outgoing and kind of wild and crazy and whatever I might just suggest, you know, not might. I will straight up say, I don't think that's a good puppy for you. Ultimately, it's their decision, but this is my job. This is what I do full time. So you're going to listen to me or look at a couple of cute pictures and videos and say that's the one I want. So technically, yes, ultimately I leave it up to them, but usually people are willing to listen to my advice. Yeah, we don't let people pick for that reason, right? Like living in our home, they're we transition them out to like a, I don't know how to describe it, but like a well-being area. Yep. They're with us, you know, multiple times a day, socializing multiple times a day. And I know who the butt kicker is. And I know who's going to be a little bit more chill. Right. They kind of tell us the owners kind of tell us like what their goals are, how much they hunt, what they want to do competition wise, or we do get family pets. And it's like they don't just because that's the cute one that clutled up in your lap the first time, it's like, yeah, because he was just kicking butt for 40 minutes. Yeah. He's tired. Like don't fall in love right away. Be willing to listen to you or the person, the other person who bred the litter and say, this one isn't the one you want, man. This is the one that's going to need to go to a hunt test home or someone who trains a bunch and hunts a bunch or guides or whatever, like God, listen to people who do it. That's what I tell people all the time. In fact, during COVID, we actually moved all of our picking process virtually anyways. So I will FaceTime with a family if it's available or I just like send some comparison videos so they can see the puppy side by side, that kind of stuff. And I tell them that every time now I'm sending you a couple minutes worth of videos, granted they've been watching the puppies on our Instagram and that kind of stuff. But what you are looking way too seriously about is something that I've been watching for six, seven weeks out. So don't be hung up on that. It's just, it's silly in that two minutes. Like, well, that one didn't chase the ball when you threw it or something. I'm like, I'll be six weeks old. Like they'll chase it eventually to trust me. Yeah. See, I'm thankful I feel like most of the people will just kind of use my suggestions. And I feel like, you know, one other thing I always tell people if they're really torn between two puppies, I always tell them you're never going to think about blue collar once you get home. If you pick green collar, you're not thinking about that other puppy once you get your pup home. So just. Same point. Let it go. I never thought of it. That's a great point. Mm hmm. I wish I had that one blank. Well, now you do. I mean, seriously, they're so excited and like, this is our baby. You know, they're like, but we really wish we had that puppy that we really, you know, that's never going to happen. No, no, you're absolutely right. Let's talk a little bit about health clearances and ethical breeding. What does ethical breeding mean to you? I think that if you, if you have one litter in your life, you're a breeder. And if you're a breeder, you need to be bettering the breed. So if you do a pairing because whatever reasons you want to give me, you should be bettering the breed. And what that means is, you know, especially with labs, there's so many different health issues that can be 100% avoided with proper health testing. I'm not saying that you need to eliminate a dog because it's a carrier of EIC or do this. Reba, for example, she was a carrier of EIC. But ethically, we didn't breed her to another carrier with EIC. You know, as long and now we are kind of completely clear. We don't do carriers anymore. Not because I don't think it's okay, but just because people get so freaked out about a carrier when they actually have no idea what that means. So I think that, you know, as far as what we do, my very first thing that I ever do is a genetic panel. We use paw prints, genetics, a lab essential panel. You're testing for things like EIC, CNN, central and circular, but the right-known dysplasia, acrosplasia, there's all kinds of them that can be avoided, you know. So you get the dog, you do the panel, clear of everything. The problem with some of some people are like, well, we don't need to do that because the dog is clear of parentage. Well, that's great. But let me see the parents' test because I think that over the years, people have just said they're clear by parentage, clear by parentage, and then you start seeing dogs that are affected by these diseases that shouldn't be read about, right? So I think parentage was a thing eight years ago, which not that long ago, but eight years ago, that was more commonplace to say that now it's not right. It's not at all. And it's a simple, it's like people are like, oh, I don't want to do the genetic test. Yes, it's expensive. But again, if you're going to be breeding, you're going to have expenses. That's going to come up. So it's really important to just withhold that integrity, whether you want to or not. It's important, in my opinion. After that, we do eyes through OFA, and that is kind of a bummer because it has to be done by a canine ophthalmologist, and in our area, we are about three and a half hours from the closest one. But we still do it. I'll bring all my young dogs in at once if I can and get that out of the way. And then at two years, of course, you have their hips and elbows done through OFA. And that is, you know, I think a lot of times is the scariest part for breeders because you've done all of this health testing. They're good. Awesome, and training their personality is what that you want and expect. And then if you have their hips and elbows come back with something not good realistically, could you breed that dog? Yes. Can they produce a litter? Yes. But is that ethical? No, because we're here to better the breed. So I just, you know, for example, the heartbreak, you know, I had a dog. I actually kept a male out of my golden girl, Reba. And at the end of the day, it just wasn't something that I thought would be bettering our program. And I had to get rid of him. His name was Forest. And I still cry about that. It was, it sucked. It was so hard. But again, we found a really awesome family for him. He lives near the cities, but really active young couple who has a jolly pup from us. So, you know, there's just decisions that you have to make that are really hard and you don't want to do it. But I just always go back to, are you bettering a breed? Would this dog be a good specimen to reproduce? You know what I mean? And that's everybody has their own opinions about it. But I think that at the end of the day, it comes down to you just have to continue to do your best. And it sucks because there's a lot of dogs out there that are being bred, in my opinion, pretty irresponsibly. But that's why I just think it's really important for people when they're looking for a new dog that you're going through a reputable breeder and a breeder that can provide proof. Yeah. Yeah. How would you suggest people doing like, what does that research look like? Like, how do people find out stuff like that? Or maybe what do they look for? So I think like actually having documents that, I mean, people are like, oh yeah, they have good hips and elbows. Okay. Well, can I see their, like, what's the register name so I can look it up at the OFA database? If you go to a hunting lab pedigree, I, on that website, you can look at each dog and their health testing as well. So if you think, okay, and another thing that I think about is, okay, mom and dad both have good hips and whatever, but does grandma or you know what I mean, have their, what is the generational evidence that these, not just mom and dad have been health tested, but three generations back. Was there any evidence of hip dysplasia or EIC or that kind of stuff? It's really interesting to see because they know everybody has to start somewhere, but if you look at most of our breedings, every single dog in that five generation pedigree has been cleared of damn near everything. You know, genetic testing is something that has been coming up in the last 15, 20 years. We've been in Minnesota is where the EIC testing started and it's kind of just trickled down from that. We're finding more and more things that we can test for, which is really cool. But yeah. Minnesota is also working on, uh, cruciate disease. The legament? Yeah, cruciate, legament disease. Yeah. CCD or something. Cruciate, it's kind of like the ACL and dogs really. Yeah. So they're, they're looking at it as can we prove genetically that dogs are going to be more predisposed to pairing their knees. Their CCD. So I'm, we talked about with Dr. Joe Spoo on a podcast a few months ago, Kevin. So maybe we can make a note in our podcast notes of like referencing that podcast number episode number. People want to listen, but I'm, I'm like 99% sure it's Minnesota. Again, that's like the forefront of genetic testing. I think that one might have been in Wisconsin, but regardless, Minnesota does have some really great facilities that they're utilizing to try to figure this kind of stuff out. And, you know, that's another thing as a breeder, we're learning all the time. I mean, constantly different products, different, um, you know, the footing in your well-being bed, you know, that has changed in the last 10 years. What is good and what is not? Um, I just actually read an article about, um, the well-being process and having like a very dim and dark setting for mom to do that because that was like where it not in nature, they usually do it in, in night where they're protected and kind of hidden, that kind of stuff. So, um, knowledge is power and that's how we get better. And there are some breeders who are like, oh, all these darn tests, whatever. And I think ultimately it's, it's good. I mean, I know sometimes it can be a little bit carried away, but at the same time, we want our dogs to live as long as it's healthy life as they possibly can because we all know that they don't live long enough as is. So there's any way that we can stretch out that lifespan. Why would you not do it? Why would you, I mean, like the, the legament thing, why would you not find out if we could avoid a three to $5,000 surgery? I mean, I'm sure in some areas it's way more than that. If we can avoid that, why wouldn't we? Absolutely. So let's talk a little bit about the process. Um, you know, we, we actually kind of dabbled with it with Coxidia. When you have a mama dog, what are some things you do? Like, okay, let's take it even further back. Sure. She comes into heat. We've done all our health testing. Uh, I would encourage everybody to run hunt tests and get titles on their dog to show that they are proven that they can learn and do their job. Uh, but, but again, let's just say all the health testing is done on both parents, everything's rocking and rolling. She comes into heat. Talk to me about your process. Um, normally I will deworm the mama before she is bred. Not that worms are evident, but it's just in case they are, I want to get that out of the way and that's a really simple thing that you could do. What do you use? Um, for that I usually use safeguard. It's a three day wormer that's a little more comprehensive rather than like pyrental. Um, and that, because that's just one less where you have to, if, I mean, if she's pregnant and then has worms, you're going to run into some issues. Um, so that's usually what we get out the gate and, you know, after the breeding, I really don't treat them that much differently because I want them to be in shape. Um, we still go on walks. We still, I don't do a lot of training or anything like that, but they're still just as much a part of the pack than anything. The last like two weeks or so, I really start to be careful because I don't want them to like, collide into another dog. And I mean, their womb sometimes gets really stretched, especially with big ladders. I'm sure you've seen it with crews. I'm sure with those big ladders, um, but you don't want them like getting bumped too much or I don't know, crazy things can happen. And you just want to keep those puppies as safe as you possibly can. But I also want the dog to be able to be in shape and healthy enough to do this litter on their own. Um, and I don't normally do a whole lot of supplements every now, like every other day or a couple of times a week, we'll do like a prenatal vitamin. Um, but basically feeding them a healthy diet, we feed pro plan. I saw that you guys switched to that. Um, we've been feeding it for years and have had just so much success with it. You know, in the dog world, we talk about poop a lot because it is a good indicator of their health, whether you like it or not. So the dogs have always have good stools on it. So, um, their coats look nice. So making sure that they have, um, a good healthy diet. I don't feed them a whole lot more because you don't want those puppies to get too big, but I also don't want to starve mama. You know, uh, do you say, uh, I'm sorry, some people will do puppy food for the mom. Do you do anything? Do you do that? Or do you just straight up pro plan? Pro plan 30, 20. That's, that's, you know, puppy, you can do puppy food in a lot of times after the puppies are born. I will give mama. I mean, they eat a lot after the puppies are born, but, um, we'll incorporate some puppy food in that just because when the weaning process starts, I want her to be used to eating that so she doesn't get a stomach issue from, you know, cleaning up after the puppies. Um, and also just the, you know, calories and stuff that she needs to bounce back from a litter. I'm not sure. I call it like refeeding, you know, um, having a litter is really hard on a mama dog. I mean, they, they blow their coat. They lose a lot of weight. They get, it's stressful. I mean, it's all kinds of different hormones and all the craziness stuff that goes on, um, in birth and rearing them. So, um, we just try to keep them. I mean, we feed every two to three hours a lot, like as much as, not as much as they want cause they'll eat themselves sick, but, um, make sure to make, you know, give them an adequate diet and, you know, just take care of them the best that we can. So, So you're not big on supplements than other than maybe some pre prenatal vitamins. Mm hmm. We have used some, some supplements in the past and I honestly just didn't see a huge change in it. We tried, um, from Revival Health, there's a product called Beastron. Um, we use that for probably about a year and I didn't see any significant difference. So we stopped doing that and I still didn't see any difference. So we just kind of cut it out, you know, yeah. Sometimes I know that this is probably controversial, but I do get asked a lot from, as a trainer, like, do we give supplements to our dogs and, and what have you? It's like, any, anything. I have not seen like, oh my gosh, this is amazing. I've heard amazing stories, but do you want to see amazing stories or are they really getting them? And so I just have never had an, uh, experience myself where I'm like, this works. Right. Maybe I got to try other stuff. I don't know, but I feel the same way and I'm willing to try stuff as long as it's safe obviously, but, um, if I don't see a significant difference in it, then what's the point? Because, you know, it just doesn't make sense to me. And with a good quality food, you shouldn't have to worry about them lacking or having deficiencies in a certain substance in their body because that food should have it in there. Something we do do just to like create some variety for them is we'll feed like different fruits and vegetables. Um, you know, we'll do that kind of stuff just to give them some variety in their meals. Um, for mamas, we'll try to, you know, up their calcium with, um, like cottage cheese and vanilla ice cream as like a treat while they're nursing. Um, but no, I think, you know, if, if you have a good food, you shouldn't have to worry too much about supplements in my opinion. Very good. All right. Let's talk about, uh, the days leading up to go time. What are you preparing for? How do you looking for? How do you get them used to their space? So our, the way our well-being rooms are set up is they're attached to our kennel and I've got a big one and a small one, one with three pens and one with two. So kind of depending on the female is where I will place that particular dog. Um, if there's a mama who's like, Jolie, for example, if there's stuff going on, she wants to see what's happening, you know, so I usually put her in the smaller one. That's a little bit more secluded for her. Um, but if we have, you know, three litters at a time, I'll put them there. But, um, first of all, you just want to make sure that they have their space and help them get comfortable in it. So usually like a week and a half to two weeks, I will get them in that well-being pen and you know, they have their blankets and their water and stuff. So they're used to that environment and leading up to it. Once the second day, 59 turns, I start checking temps twice a day. Their temperature is the first thing that will indicate that labor is starting. If you miss the physical signs, the temperature, I mean, I'm not out there 24-7 with them. So if they, um, maybe they threw up or they are nesting and stuff, I might not always catch that, but I am going to catch a temp drop. And that's when, you know, like we're getting close. So, and that's kind of cool too. So someone who doesn't know it's dogs, normal temperature is like 101. And when they are starting to go into labor, it will drop down around like 98, 99. So that's when we are watching really close. So that temp starts to drop. We are going to, we know it's going to be go time with the next 24 hours. And then we don't leave our side. We sleep out there. I've got a recliner in one room and a cot in the other. And we are with that dog throughout the whole thing. You know, there's some people I think, but just put them in the room and say, good luck, kid. There's just so many complications that can happen during birth. And I want to make sure that I've got puppies that are breathing and latching and doing all that stuff. I want to make sure mom is not stressed or having like a stuck puppy or a breech puppy or that kind of stuff. We've seen some crazy stuff. And if we weren't there, I mean, you could have lost the mom in that sort of thing. I think that's the only thing that people don't realize is that anytime you breed a dog, you have a risk of losing the mom. Yeah. There's a lot of complications that can happen with birth. And thankfully it's not very common, but it's always a possibility. So yeah, we just try to make sure that everybody is good and calm. We usually have a radio, usually classic rock or country. And yeah. Out of all the letters you've done, how many are during the day where you're like, oh, man, I got a good night's sleep last night. None. I've had one. I've had one. Yeah. Actually, my most recent one was maybe one of my, she's phenomenal, but it was the perfect well-being time ever. We had some friends up and we had a really good Friday Saturday and we were just going to plan on a really chill day on Sunday and I checked her temp that morning and it was dropping. Oh, maybe come on. Let's just get this done with at 9.30 AM. She started having puppies. I'm like, this is a dream on a Sunday. We've got nothing going on. Like it was perfect. And she was wrapped up at a time, I don't know, probably like four or five that evening. And then she's exhausted. I'm tired. I'm like, hey, girl, we'll see you know, I'm sleeping out there with her. But man, that was like a dream come true. But yeah, you're right. And the most of the time it's like the most inconvenient time or holidays that love to have puppies on holidays for some reason. Yeah, we're here. We're. So I had one, the cruises last letter. Time dropped. Life is good. And she's been two in the morning like clockwork. Like, all right, it's going to be a long day. It's going to be a long night. I had clients coming into town from far away, which you so just a backstory, you work with Richard, right? Yeah, Richard, Jasmine. Yeah, drains a lot of your dogs. So you know the game like there are people from hours and hours and hours and hours and hours and all over, yeah, all over. And this, this person comes and it's pounding rain. And I'm like, so I'm out there training with them. I'm like, Hey, dude, I'm just going to go check on her. She had already had one. I'm like, oh, yeah, like, Hey, bud, you're welcome to walk your dog around the field and have fun. I'm going to be busy forever. Yeah, but she like this was her fourth letter. So I just figured we were going to be cool. Like, okay, tonight it's going to be game time. I can go deal with this client for two hours. I can come back and just like get settled. He'll be cool. And usually I have other help here, you know, whether it's my fiance or employees, like to go back and check on her and stuff. And it's like, of course she did, but she had one. Everything was good to go. And then it was like clockwork for her. And she would like I said, she was a phenomenal mom, like no issues on any of the letters. I haven't been that lucky other times. And I don't think I've ever really talked about on the podcast, Kev, but we have lost one puppy while I well them. That sucked. Yeah. Two puppies. I had a friend of mine in South Carolina that would well, for me. That's kind of her side business to help fund her training fees and like her, her hobby. And she has like a straight facility. She went to, she's an older lady, retired. And she went to school for this like a six month breeding and welling school. She got ultrasound equipment. She's got it all, right? Right. And two were lost with her. And they were a little bit older. So like they had already been someone had like, I'd call a future puppy owner and be like, hey, I'm sorry to tell you, but we lost one. And it's yours. Those are really hard things to deal with. And then this last litter I did, we had an emergency C section. And yeah, it was Saturday at one o'clock. Nobody's open. So I drove about 90 miles an hour to Cornell and sat there till nine o'clock at night until they brought me my dog and my puppy. It was shitty. Yeah, it's, I don't want, I mean, it's hard to talk about like the horse stories of breeding, but we've definitely, I mean, we, we've lost puppies. And like you said, it's hard. We need to make that phone call and say, I don't have a puppy for you anymore. It is the worst part of the storm. Like I will clean up poop and clean pens all day, but making those phone calls, it just sucks a life right on me. Because I just feel like a failure. And I know a lot of times sometimes I think that, you know, things happen for a reason. And it's, I did everything I could to prevent it. And this is what happened. But that doesn't make it easier, you know. And even like an emergency C section, we've had our, we've had plenty or not plenty, but we've had enough of those that, you know, when it's time that you're going to need to do this. And we had actually, it was a rooster daughter. Her name was Jewel. She had an emergency C section, about her home and dogs are remarkable, I will say, when they have a C section, it is insane how quickly they bounce back from that, which I'm grateful for, but it's also something obviously we want to avoid. But she just was not getting better. I'm like, something is not right. And we ended up having to bring her back in because like I, she was literally dying as puppies were nursing on her. And we brought her back in. They had to open her back up and she was bleeding internally and just a random, or not random, but an unexpected thing and actually Parker, it's kind of cool. Dogs don't have blood types. I don't know if you knew that. But Parker, biggest, strongest boy, we brought him in and did a blood transfusion and that's what saved her. But I mean, we could have lost her pretty easily that day if we didn't know what we were dealing with. You know what I mean? Yeah, we're like, man, let's give it one more hour. Yeah. And that hour can literally be life or death. So it's not all rainbows and sunshine. I like to think that in most days are, which I think that's the reason why we keep doing this. But there are definitely some times that really are heartbreaking and hard and things that you have to stomach, things that you wouldn't really ever foresee happening, but it's nature. It's not perfect and things are going to go awry at times. So. Yeah. It's interesting to think about like when I talk with other people about this who aren't really in the dog world and they don't fully understand it and it's like, Oh, like that's for me, it's like, Oh, my side job or whatever. Right. Like, wow, you know, it's not life and death. Like why don't you fall asleep while the puppies are they're having puppies or what? Okay. Well, for this is life and death. Like this isn't a joke. Like this. This is actually life and death. Can you Kevin and Rachel slap next to their dog and the puppies for eight weeks? The entire eight weeks. The entire eight weeks they put their bed upstairs. Eight weeks. The whole eight weeks. Yeah. They were good. But it's but it's interesting like not, I don't know, like as a grown adult, like there's not that many things that you do or at least that I do that are like full on. These are life and death thing. Like there's no messing around. There's no room for error. Yeah. It's it. It really is. And you know, we also people are like, you sleep on the candle and like, damn right, I do because I want to make for sure that everything is okay. Like a mom can lay in a puppy like that. And normally I mean, they're good about it and we've got pig rails and all the things prevent that, but it's happened. And if you're out there and hear that puppy crying, you can get up and keep it safe. If you're not, then you might lose that pup. And not only am I going to have to break a family's heart by telling them that, but I also, this is my income too, you know, so if I have to work my butt off for, you know, these letters, I'm going to do it because their safety and health is very important to me. How long do you stay out there? I'm like four to seven days. I'll sleep on the couch with them. I usually about a week give or take. I used to until they were ween frame. But now it kind of also depends on the female too. There's some that I'm like, oh, she's fine. And and litter size too. If it's a small litter and like they're going to be fine, but if it's a larger litter and they've got less space to, you know, have some real estate, then I'm going to stay out there for longer just to make sure. But you know, during that first week, they're doing so much development and so much growth that you can kind of you can see when they're going to be able to save themselves almost, you know, what I mean, like they're when they are enough. They're strong enough that they can kind of wiggle out from mom if they're behind her, that kind of stuff. And then it kind of eases my mind a little bit. So we'll start, but I'm still out there every like, I'll sleep on the couch then. And then I have alarm every two to three hours to like just go check, see if mom needs a snack or needs to be let out or that kind of stuff. So even though you're not sleeping out there, you're still up all the time. It's like having a newborn again. So yeah, absolutely. During the birthing process, what are like, I know the drug oxytocin. Oxytocin is a drug that you give the mother dog to help her push. I think they give that to humans too, right? They do. Yep. So do you have that on hand? Is that something you is a last ditch effort? Are there other things that you'll, what are you looking for to be sure that the mother's done? Like what are kind of precautions and things that you have on hand or know this is an emergency or non emergency, etc. To get into like a really nitty gritty about it. We do have oxy, I don't usually use oxytocin until they are like looking like they're done, but just by like palpating them, if I think I feel another puppy in there, but they're just, she's not just having like natural contractions will give oxytocin to induce those contractions. That's basically what it does is contracts the muscles of the uterus to force the puppy out, not force it, but just kind of kickstart that. So I do have it on hand. I don't use it very often. You could use it for every puppy if you want, but I just don't think that's very healthy to do unless it's like an emergency. But we have lube on hand and you know, if you can feel a puppy stuck basically. Go for it. Let it run. The ugly side of it, but you have to lube up your hand and try to get that puppy out. You know, if it's too big to pass the birth, pass the birth canal. If it's just like she's having contractions, but there's just no progress on that puppy because you can feel them. If they're not coming down far enough because you have risk of losing that pup if they're in the birth canal for too long. So we'll do whatever it takes to get that puppy out. There are different techniques like, I guess I don't, I can't think of the proper terms of them, but one we call the wheelbarrow where you have, if you have help or you put the mama's front paws on your shoulders. And so basically she's standing on her hind legs. Your gravity is helping you. Sometimes that can help the contractions kind of force that puppy down when you open up that birth canal. And there's another technique that you can do with the mama's on the back. And honestly, I haven't been as successful as I so usually use the wheelbarrow if I have a stuffed puppy. Just getting them up and walking and stuff, which makes it really interesting. I've had puppies born in the snow when it's 40 below and I'm like catching them with a towel outside because that's just now what happened. Yeah. That's so Minnesota of you. Yeah. Like a Minnesota of you. For sure. I tell you what, sometimes people on Instagram and stuff will be like, it's 40 below and you're snowshoeing with the dogs. I hope that's torture to them. I'm like, it's not. They need exercise just as much as anybody. And it's 40 below. It's not like we're out there for an hour, but we'll go for a quick 20 minute walk. You bundle up and when they start lifting their paws, we had it. It's not a big deal. That's awesome. That is very Minnesota. Yeah. What about like talk about the term you used earlier, breach, right? So with Quinn, the one I had to do the emergency C section, several were coming out, not head first, but feast, beat first, like butt first. And it was really getting exhausted from those. So I guess I'm asking for my knowledge, but sure. I'll kind of give you the back. So she's contracting. She's really putting a ton of energy into this one puppy. Trying, trying, trying. I help pull out. Puppy's good. She's good. Yep. We were off and running, if you will. And then like bang, bang, two more came out. Like it was as if they were in the shoot, like helping me. But what would be a breach and what would be a scenario where you say, I'm going to stay hands off, I'm going to move in and help. So breach is just when the puppy is not nose down. It's coming through the brick and out backwards. And there's nothing you can do to prevent that. But sometimes breach babies shoot out just normally. And other times you can tell when that mama is working really hard, it's pretty interesting when you've done it enough, you can tell where that baby is in the birth canal. You can see that puppy's body before it's born. So if we can see that lump and feel that lump and you're having active contractions and it's not going through, the next thing we'll do is go up and assist that puppy. It's very, very important to pull as she's contracting. Because with that natural push and then you're pulling, it's a lot safer for the puppy and easier on mom too. If you just try to yank it out, that's hurtful for her. And it can be detrimental to the puppy and the sack and all the things. So you know, with usually if, again, it's so different with every single dog, but you can tell when they need help. You can just, they're exhausted. They keep having contractions. And I mean, if you obviously you have seen it, but for people who haven't, you can tell a contraction. Like their whole body is tensing up. You can see they're kind of tail arching and stuff like that. And if she has those contractions again and again and again and nothing is coming to fruition, that's a time that you need to, okay, let's change something up first before I go up there. Usually like, let's go take a walk. Because sometimes just getting up and moving the dog can be enough to help things progress. Yeah, I get it. It's on a Bose who ball. Oh, yeah, that's a good idea. It's like, you really crack yourself up. I did just crack myself up. I was waiting for the moment. Yeah, there you go. Bob was born breech. He was the fact of the day. Yeah, I had a little wrapper on my neck. Yeah. That's why I'm a little weird. I'm not a result of a weech. Yeah. Yeah, it happens. It happens to the bus. Oh, yeah. Yep. So, all right, I did have before I made my Bose. I had another thing, but help me keep rolling because it'll come back to me. Okay. I'm interested. Like when you, in the thick of it, right? Like one of the things that I ran into is my dog was snacking on placentas, like treats, which for anybody listening and also correct me from wrong, but like, it's okay to eat a couple. That's good for him. We're cool. She went to town and was snacking them before I could grab them and remove them. Remove them, like take them so that she didn't eat all of them and she had the runs bad. How many do you have like a number? Like I'll let the dog try and eat like one or two or do you just like free for all, like ride it out? I don't really have a number on it. I tried to take them away from the moms because you said they're going to have the runs, but they're going to have the runs no matter what. That's just the fact of life. That's true. They're eating more, they're stressed, they're, you know, it's kind of inevitable part of it. And the placentas do have a lot of benefits to be consumed by the mom. I mean, they're packed with nutrients and a lot of galleries. I mean, that placenta kept that puppy alive in the womb. So obviously it's good for something. So I never tried to withhold all of them, but when they eat all of them, but when they consume all of them, I can't get messy sometimes. So we try to get rid of them as soon as we can. But if we miss a couple here and there, it's just not a big deal. I'm like, we have had a girl, especially if they want to eat while they're in that process. It's like you do you because you're doing all the work right now. When they come out, again, if anyone has never done this, puppy comes out to a sack. Do you assist the mom in breaking the sack and help that puppy with breathing and revitalizing it and get it going? Or do you say nature take course and let the mom lick it and get it off? We do everything just because I want to make sure that that puppy is breathing. And yeah, mama can do a great job and have, I mean, obviously, like you said, I can't remember what dog you said, but she had already had a puppy. Like they're very capable of it. But again, it goes back to trying to save every single puppy in that litter. So absolutely, I will make sure that puppy is breathing in all as well and then give it back to mom. And then she does what she would have done if I hadn't taken. You know, she still licks them over, make sure that that pup's breathing and stuff. And then it's just really important to make sure that they're all latching too afterwards, you know. So and it's just easier when you handle it yourself, you can make sure that there's no more liquid in their nasal passage or mouth and that kind of stuff. Because I mean, easily that can develop into pneumonia, you know. So just making sure other airway is clear and the umbilical cord too isn't too too short that you're running into umbilical hernias and that kind of stuff. That's a good point. So just to take a step back, so you help break the sack. I do the same. Yeah. I have one of those baby booger sucker thingies. Yep. You use the same thing. Yep. Yep. Both nostrils, I'll do it down the mouth a little bit. Yep. Rub them up. Yep. Hold the puppy upside down because gravity can help you get that liquid out. And you can, I mean, we have rags upon rags that we just have thrifted or people have given old towels and that kind of stuff. And you can rub those puppies like crazy, like pretty vigorously. And it's how well, I always have to remind myself like, you need to breathe too while you're doing this. Yeah. So the second though you hear that puppy make the first squawk, it's like, we're good. You know, and there has been times that I thought for sure this puppy is gone. You know, stillborns are a real thing that you've dealt with, but I learned from Linda to never ever ever give up on a puppy. I mean, I've worked on a puppy for 15 to 20 minutes. And all of a sudden it started taking its own breaths. And man, is that rewarding? Because you know, again, if you are new to it and you're scared or whatever, you could be like, well, that's a stillborn. When all reality, if they could have, and they just need extra support, you know, so it's really important to me to really rewarding sound of those first puppy cries and their squawk. And it's like that you can just breathe aside, relief on your own, but absolutely. Yeah. We always keep oxygen on hand to in case I have a puppy who's just not coming around. People try to use oxygen to help and that's nice to have. That's really interesting. What does that process look like? You just have like an oxygen concentrator with like a little plastic cup around it, basically on the end of the holes. And so we'll just put the puppies head like in the cup and just give them some extra oxygen to help them try to encourage breaths and make sure that they're getting the oxygen that they need. That's cool. But umbilical hernias are relatively common. So a lot before you even dig into that, can you explain what that is, please? So umbilical hernia. So you're not a doctor. So I'm not a doctor. You could explain what that means, please. I'm not a doctor either, but I'll explain it. It'd be like, boy, you deliver puppies. It's fine. So an umbilical hernia is basically where the your belly button where the umbilical cord is attached to the pup, there's a little hole in that muscle that it just never closed up. So it can be as small as like the tip of your pinky. I've seen as big as like a cold quarter that when you rub that puppies belly button, if you will, there's like you can physically feel a hole and sometimes they can get big enough that their intestines will like start coming out on that and they have to like massage it to go back in. So in my opinion, ways to prevent it is making sure that you're taking that pup and cutting the umbilical cord yourself because sometimes moms just get a little vigorous with it. And the reason that they happen is when the mom is like chewing it off, it's pulling those muscles and there is a possibility for it to develop into hernia. Sometimes it's natural to, and even sometimes when we do it, we've gotten, you know, like a hernia if you know if the umbilical cord got ripped prior to the puppy coming out, there's all kinds of different variations of it. The good news is that they oftentimes heal themselves, especially if you catch it well in that like early enough. So normally with like early neurological simulation, which I'm not sure if you guys know or do it or what have a perfect awesome video on YouTube. You may or may not have a YouTube video on it. Awesome. Okay. Well, I'll have to check that out. We're going to link that in the description in the case I'm curious. Yeah, that's something that is miraculous, how much of an impact it has on dogs. But so normally when I do that, when I'm done with it, I will just give their belly button a little massage because even at a young age, if you can't usually detect it when they're that small, but if you do it just out of practice, what you're doing by massaging that is basically encouraging growth in those muscles to close it up. So then when they're older and you're like, definitely, this is a hernia. We just put pressure on it and just kind of give it a massage a couple. I mean, sometimes it's only twice a day and sometimes I'm out there 10 times a day, you know, depending on the severity and often times that will naturally heal up. And if it doesn't, then I usually tell people just to wait and if there are plenty on mutering or Spain to do it at that same time. So the dark doesn't have to go under anesthesia for a quick, like two stitch thing, but no, it's a pretty minor inconvenience in my opinion. Yeah, agreed. So you end up clipping the umbilical cord to the best of your ability for each puppy. How do you do that? Because I am cumbersome in my efforts. Yeah. Well, having a good clamp and sharp scissors will help you a lot. But basically we have, you know, I kind of lay out like a table with like towels and stuff and I try to stabilize that puppy as after I get them breathing. And then basically just keeping them, I mean, they're squirmy, but sure clamping it and leave that clamp on for a little bit. I'll even like leave it on hold the puppy and just kind of give it some more stimulation. So I know I'd still breathe in and kick in good. And then it's just a quick snip. I just make sure that it's not bleeding after the clamp and then when you remove the clamp, just make sure that it doesn't continue to bleed. And if it does continually re-clamp it for a little bit. I don't know. Does that answer your question? It does. How much do you leave? Like, um, so you can kind of see the base of, I'm really bad at measurements, but like at the base of the umbilical cord, you can see that there's like a little bit of white towards the end of the body. So I'll probably do like maybe like this much. We have half inch, three quarters of an inch, half an inch, um, clamp it at that quarters of an inch and then snip. Yeah. Snip it right after that. Yeah. I'm a failure at some of that. It's okay. It takes getting used to it because they are squirmy. I mean, you'd be surprised how strong newborn puppies are. It's wild, but it's so cool. Yeah. Amazing. Um, all right. But we talked about that, the, the actual birthing process. Well, we didn't really talk about to an extent is like go time emergency, crap, sit in the fan. How do you know what's the gut feeling? Do you have, you know, people on hand to make that phone call and be like this, what's the gut feeling? You know, how do you go about handling an emergency so that you, the mom and the puppies have the best chance at success? Um, I rely heavily on Linda to be completely honest. She has been doing this forever. I mean, before she bred labs, she grew up in upper Michigan and raised Fox and Mink and she did coon dogs and she did, well, obviously labs forever. She did bulldogs for a while. She was also a registered nurse. So she's very knowledgeable. So I will call her and say, Linda, I'm not feeling good about this. And she just kind of goes down the list, like when's the last puppy to be born? What is so a lot of times I think documentation is really important. Every time a puppy is born, write down what time that puppy was born, you know, and as her contractions are happening, what are her contractions look like? Are they because you can tell the difference between like a very strong and like productive contraction rather than just her body is contracting, you know? So if there is a significant time, again, depending on the dog, like if it has been over two hours since the last puppy and she's just having, I know there's more puppies in there and she's just not having productive contractions is when I start getting a little worried when the mom just looks really fatigued. She's not checking up on her baby. She's not like moving around. She's just kind of staying in. Yeah. And you can, I mean, I've had crazy instances that like a puppy was born like, I don't know, 14 hours after the last pup. I thought she was done completely. And then all of a sudden she had another puppy in the morning. So it's really, it's really dependent on the dog. And I think that's why it's important to know your dog's really well. It's always scary with first time moms because you don't really know or what to expect. But I don't really have a good answer for you other than go with your gut because like a timeframe, like you had kind of said it, two hours contraction. Like two hours, if she's, if she hasn't had a puppy in over two hours and then she's, you know, I still give it time, but then I'm watching even more closely. I'm trying to notice exactly what those contractions are looking like. If she looks uncomfortable and that kind of stuff, but I think that, you know, especially when you get to like four or five, six hours after the last puppy and you know, there's still puppies in there, then it would be a call to the vet for sure. And it's tough in our area. We live, it's just overall that our town doesn't have an emergency bed, which is really a bummer. But there's one that's about an hour from us and then a bigger one that's about two and a half hours. So at that point, you just have to make the decision like, I think we can wait until morning or is this go time right now? And oftentimes I like to err on the side of caution. I just, it's not worth trying to save a couple bucks to wait until morning sometimes. And maybe that's me overreacting, but ultimately I want to keep that mom safe as my number one priority. So I don't think it's overreacting at all. I think it goes back to our conversation of, but this is life and death. Right. Right. Exactly. Exactly. It's not, we've said it a thousand times. If you're breeding dogs to make money, you're an if you're not. You probably get a little bit. Yeah. Let's talk a little bit about the danger zone, if you will, of the first several days of birth, what you're looking for in the puppies, temperatures, how to keep them alive and happy and all that good stuff. Yeah. The first 72 hours are so critical with newborns. They can feel so, so fast. You can have a puppy nursing totally fine in the morning and by night it's all a thar jic that it's not doing anything. So monitoring them is very, very important. I mean, we're out there pretty much 24 seven, the first 72 hours. And as far as warmth goes, puppies cannot regulate their own body temperature and tell around three weeks old. So we make sure to have that well-being room very, very warm. I'm talking usually between like our well-being rooms are usually kept for that first week at around like 75 to 82 depending on the time of year and obviously when it's 40 below or keeping it a little warmer and making sure that they have a heat source aside from mom that they can escape. Like you don't want the whole bottom of your well-being and to be heated because if a puppy gets overheated, you want them to be able to move away from that heat. So basically just what I do is take weights morning and night those first couple days just to make sure that I'm seeing an increase of at least one ounce in their weight. Obviously, you'd like to see more than that, but I think that at least if they gain an ounce in a day, that's kind of what our goal is. And if you see a puppy that is with our dragon not doing well, I will make an extra effort to just make sure that that puppy has access to a nipple, maybe push in some of the stronger puppies aside. If that puppy is not latching, that's when you start to kind of intervene. And I mean, we've two fed puppies. We have like a really cool product actually we got from France. It's like a silicone feeder that has like nipples on it. That has been really helpful. It's an amazing, it's a last litter. It really does come in handy. So that kind of stuff. Have you ever to put to bed a puppy? Yeah. That was a learning curve for me, but it really wasn't one of mine. I was working for another guy and she had 14 and we ended up losing several out of it. They'd get too cold and they couldn't, they just couldn't bounce back. But we, it was between his wife himself and me every two hours. And we just, we rocked it as best as we could. And so yeah, I learned that was the first litter I ever helped with or saw get worn or like anything. And it was the first one. A challenging one. First puppy I ever had to bury. I mean, it was like, but a good learning experience and yeah, yeah. The silicone thing you're talking about that was helpful. I think it was Memphis's litter. We had a Ron. And you describe exactly like what that is or the name of it or I'll see if I can Google it real quick. Well, she described. Yeah, it's like a, it's like a silicone cylinder that you put the formula in the inside and then there's four teats, if you will, but like really mimics the anatomy of a mom. So instead of like using a baby bottle that's meant for humans, I've used, yeah, I've used makeup sponges that we had cut into like a triangle shape and then put a syringe in the back of it. And so they basically like sucking on the, on the sponge. We've gotten that in the past like there's a lot of different ways that you can feed a puppy, but this is like the safest way in my opinion, because it mimics so much what a mom's anatomy would be so they can control. Yeah. They like, yeah. Yeah, like it's soft for them and they can control the flow of the milk that's coming down. That's like the number one problem with like actual baby bottles is sometimes that mouth just comes way too fast. And then you're looking at aspirational or pneumonia from aspiration and that kind of stuff like, I don't know, it's an awesome product and it wasn't cheap, but I am so thankful that we have it on hand. Yeah, in relation to a puppy price, it's cheap. Yeah. Yep. I just looked at it. Basically, I just Googled silicone puppy feeder and the one I got popped up. So and it's a little bit more important. But the one that we needed it for, you know, we did the same thing. We would pull all the puppies out, put her in there with mom. She like didn't have enough energy to even nurse. I bottle fed her then transition to this thing started really making progress. Then all of a sudden she bounced back. She's in training right now. It's probably one of the baddest puppies of that litter. Isn't that so awesome? She is bad to the bone. Yes. Super healthy, super smart, hard charging bad to the bone. Her name is Monroe. I love that. Yeah, it is like when you say it like never give up on a puppy. That's one of the probably the greatest lessons that Linda has ever taught me is that you they go down quick, but if you are diligent, you're diligent and you're doing the best that you can, there's a lot of times that they will bounce back. And man, like you said, it's rewarding when you can see that dog being an adult and it makes it worth it. It makes that stress and this uncertain times totally worth it. But yeah, it's pretty amazing. I think that people think like, oh, you just have puppies and you sell them or whatever, but there are so many different factors that goes into it and different things that we have to do to keep those pups alive and doing good and normal, but it's very rewarding for sure. Let's segue that into, do you keep them eight weeks? Mm-hmm. So you talked about early neurological stimulation, give a two minute overview of that and we'll drop a link to our YouTube video for people to see it, but talk a little bit about that. And then what else do you do with those puppies from, you know, now that we're out of the danger zone of the first 72 hours one week, what are we doing with them to build a bad to the bone family member and duck dog? Sure. Early neurological stimulation is really fascinating. The amount of benefits that it has and proven to have, but it can help a dog's immune system. It can help them deal with stress as an adult dog. It gets them just used to their body and aware of different environments and different, you know, environmental factors. There's, it's pretty, just Google it. You could talk about that forever, honestly, but it's a quick routine that you do with them. You hold them upright for three seconds, hold them down with their head down on their back and then putting them like on a cool, damp cloth. And these are all just like three seconds out of time. It's pretty quick. But the benefits of it is so worth it. And then the last thing is just having that tactile pressure on their pads. So that is done until their eyes open up, usually around the two week mark. And after that, I really just want to make sure that those puppies are still being handled and still being loved on and know people, know voices. I always have a radio playing in our kennel. You know, we introduce toys when, and I always hang our toys in our pens just so that they stay as clean as possible. But they still have the opportunity to explore them and play with them and that kind of stuff. As far as like noises, obviously I have the radio on, but I will, you know, people are like, Oh, I don't want a gunshot dog. What have you do? I'm like, I'm not going to blast the 12 gauge and the kennel. Like I'm not doing that. But what I will do is like drop a pan, like our feeding dishes onto the floor because dogs are never afraid of gunfire. They're afraid of loud, unexpected noises. So if you can get them used to that before they're introduced to gunfire, then gunfire is just going to be like, Oh, well, no big deal, you know. So do stuff like that. I usually don't bring the puppies outside until they're six weeks and have had their vaccination. But before that, I have them in the helping rooms in our office, different areas in the kennel. And once they get outside, I try to get them out there as often as we can. And it is my favorite part. I tell you what, when most puppies are like chasing leaves and just being puppies, you know, when they get their zoos and they're like a Roman about and running. And then falling asleep immediately after. It's just, it is so much fun. And they're like little ducklings. Everybody, I have a lot of comments that will say like, aren't you afraid you're going to lose one of them? Especially if like a big literal, say I have 12 puppies outside. Like I'm never worried about that because they follow me like a duckling. I just say, come on, pop, pop, pop, pop, and they'll go through the yard with me. Yeah, you know, I think it's just important to be as hands on as you can and making sure that that dog is used to being held. It's used to having different pressures. It's used to having different environments, different objects that they're seeing around other dogs too. I don't usually like to bring the mamas out just because if they're weaned, then the moms usually don't want a whole lot to do with them anyways. So I have, I call them my auntie dogs. Like Jolie is probably the best auntie dog or norm does really well with them too. But I'll bring some adult dogs out there with them so they can just kind of watch an adult and see how they act. And you know, dogs, they teach themselves or each other really, really well. That's why I always recommend for somebody who's like, oh, I'm not going to get a puppy until my other one passes. That's like the worst idea in my life. Get a puppy when you have an established while being a dog and you will be so thankful for it. Yeah, no, that's good, good piece of advice for sure. Yeah, I think so we do the early neurological simulation. We rigged up it for the noise. It's kind of funny and it's super redneck. But one of my employees took a couple of empty beer cans and strung them up against the fencing, if you will, of where the dog. So every time you open that door, it jingles a little bit. So at feeding time, it's like, um, racking that as long as possible. Yeah. First time they're like, oh, what is this? Hell yeah. Yeah, second time it's less. Third time they're like, it's freaking feeding time and they get pulled up. And so they're, you're acclimating them to things that might make them nervous, not nervous, awesome. And then becomes like almost like Pavlov's dog, right? Like he'd ring the bell and it'd start drooling. Like they start getting these noises and sounds and things that four days ago, you know, they kind of like hunker down and be like, what is this? No. All of a sudden, three days later, they're bouncing up and down, pumped and like it ain't no thing and I'm ready to eat for sure. Yep. And so it's like little baby things and I'm not, I don't know how many letters we've done now, but you have way more experience. And so I'm thoroughly enjoying listening and learning myself. But what I'm kind of gathering is like the fulfillment that you get from it is the same fulfillment I get. Like I hope to get several of them back in training. What did they turn out like? You know, did the pairing that I dreamed of? Because every time I breed a letter, like you said, we're trying to batter the breed. I want it to be a dog I'd want to own. I want it to have the personality. I want it to have the perseverance. I want it to have the looks. I want it to have the health I want it to like. And then you get them back and you're like, man, that one worked. Man, that one was good. But like I'm always trying to make it better and make it better. And so the opportunity that I guess I get and you get to keep probably, you know, how many do you keep from like each year? Do you keep one year or two a year? But it's really hard to not keep them all. Yeah. I try to keep like every time. I mean, my youngest is six months old and I'm already like, I want another pup. But I tried to, my husband was like, do you need this one? I'm like, okay. So I tried to about one a year. Sometimes it's more and sometimes it's less, but that's kind of where I'm at at this point. But yeah, man, like you said, that fulfillment when I get this update. And even after a week sometimes and these people are like, I can't believe this puppy already. And it's like, I did my job, right? You know what I mean? It's just the best feeling ever. And there are times like you said that maybe that one didn't work too much. Okay. So what, why, why didn't it work? You know, um, getting them back and training is my litmus test, right? Like, yeah, you know, you, and especially if I get several from a litter, because they all got raised slightly differently. Everyone is an individual, but they all sort of in that realm. And so it really is a litmus test of, am I doing things properly? I think I love that you say that too, because one of my favorite things as a breeder ever is when a trainer refers his clients to us. Like that is probably the ultimate goal because they want to train those dogs because they're easy to train and they do a good job. You know what I mean? So that is, there's a lot of times that I don't have the same opportunity as you do to train your own dogs because once they're gone, they're gone a lot of times, um, unless it's a personal dog of mine. But when I get a call from somebody and said, so and so trainer sent me to you guys because he's had a lot of success with your dogs. And I'm like, thank you. That was so good to hear. That's really cool. That's really cool. Yeah. Is there anything that we didn't capture about you, your dogs, or the process of being an ethical breeder and the process of how to do it right that you would want to hit on? I don't, I guess one thing that I would like to touch onto, obviously you are training bird dogs. Um, but I think that something that is often forgotten is how versatile labs can be. Um, we have had dogs in Ruby who is like, you know, dog diving and agility and service dogs and therapy dogs and companions and rat. So, you know, I'm not even sure what the term for that is, but we've got a gal that run, like they detect rat nests. Like it's just crazy. The things that labs can accomplish. And I think that's probably why they've been the number one breed in a case you for a lot of years. In fact, I think this year they actually got beaten by something. Like a Frenchie. I think like, how did that happen? I don't know. I don't know. You know, just a versatile dog is just, it's really, they're so fun to own. You know, and I think that's kind of the next thing that we want to do is what I would really like to get into, but I have a lot of work of research to do. But our daughter is disabled. She's in a wheelchair. And one of the main things is I want our dogs to be able to be calm and safe around her. But the next step is we really want to train one of our dogs to be a service dog for her. And Jane is six now. So we've kind of been waiting, like we want her to be involved in the training process. And I think we're getting to that point in the next couple of years, year or two, which is really scary because we've talked about it for a long time, but that's a lot of work to have a certified service dog. But something that we really, that's kind of like one of my passion goals. I want to be able to do that for her. So yeah, I'm so very thankful for the dogs and the ability to have done this for as many years as we have. I mean, our Kennel was, Stephen Linda started it in 1998, I think, like it's been a lot of years. So I mean, all the lab world is the market is flooded. You can have find our lab reader wherever you want. But I'm just really thankful for repeat buyers and referrals and that kind of stuff that keep us doing what we love. Yeah. One of the things that I've always appreciated about you and the dogs that you've raised and live with you, these are your dogs, is seeing the love they have for your daughter. And like a bedtime ritual where you share a little bit about your personal life, which is hard. Like, I don't let anyone into my personal life on social media. And you open up that window a little bit and how special those dogs are to her and her to them kind of speaks volumes to your program and like the breed, like how special these animals are to go 300 yards and go get a duck and work on Richard's truck and then come home and re-acclimate to the home and sleep in bed with her and be with her during bedtime ritual. Yeah. That's pretty neat. It's crazy. Tanner, for example, one of our, and he's 12 now, but when he was like in his prime, Jane has a genetic disease called spinal muscular atrophy. So she's very weak and she's doing awesome. Now that could be a whole nother episode, but there was a time when she first was able to sit up. She was about two years old and she was first able to actually sit up. So anytime she was on the floor playing, sitting up, Tanner would come and lay right behind her and just be still. It was almost like he knew in case she fell, he wanted to be there to like cushion that ball, you know, and that's a dog who at the line, his feet, like pitter pattern. I mean, he was so hard charging and go, go, go, but around her, it was just like, I'm going to do this. And like when she first started bearing weight on her legs, she would, well, a lot of the dogs, but she would like hold on to the dogs and stand and they would just be still and they would knew that, you know, it's, it's pretty cool. So yeah, and like you said, it is a little hard to share some of that stuff, but at the same time, I think it's awareness and realizing what these dogs are capable of is a huge thing. And in Jane's life, I mean, they have such a huge impact on her every day. Like it can be a total moon changer when she's not killing roller sick, there is always a dog in her bed and they just know that they like she needs that extra support and it's pretty miraculous. It's really fun to be able to witness that and I'm very blessed. And Jane gives every single puppy that leaves a kiss and a hug before they leave. And she says, and don't you want toys. It's very adamant about telling us. Oh, sorry. They will. Yeah. That's one of our girl, our younger girls, chewed up her favorite Barbie shoe. One meanly tiny little Barbie shoe. And to this day, that's almost, will should be to this winter. That is a naughty dog. She tells everybody that one's a naughty one. Jane, it was one Barbie shoe. Well, tell me or tell everyone where they can find you. If they're interested in learning more about your breeding program and I know that you have a wait list. So how do people apply and work towards towards that? Sure. We are on Instagram and Facebook just at Torx Labs T O R G S labs. Our website is Torx Labs.com. How I run our deposit list is basically what I require is a puppy deposit contract that can be found on our website on the puppy page, a $300 deposit. Once we have your deposit, you're on a wait list for either male or female. And as litterers are born, once I know exactly how many meals of females are on the ground, I just go down that list and say, Bob, you've got first pick on this. If you're interested, this is the breeding that we have. This is the timeframe that those pups are going to be ready to go home. This was my expectations and goals in this particular breeding as far as size, demeanor, color, et cetera. At that point, you have the decision to say, you know what, timing just doesn't work for me or I really want to wait for Parker lineage or absolutely let's hop on this. I ultimately leave the decision up to you whether, so if you put a deposit with us, I will make sure that you get a puppy that you want. I'm not going to force you to be on a litter that you're not interested in or say, I have availability, you have to take a puppy. I mean, for example, I just recently had some meals available because the people that were on our deposit list said timing just doesn't work out and I get that. So that's just kind of how we run it and usually I can fulfill a deposit between four and eight months. And that's a long or a wide time span, but you know, all depends about what nature gives us, how many meals and females we have in each litter and then what breeding are taking place. If I could do a PSA real quick, you do this more than I do, but we are not freaking Amazon out. I'm hoping for a puppy in May. That's not how it works. That's like one of my major pet peeves. So don't call me. You can, if you want to feel good, I'll do it, but I don't want to deal with it. I don't know when they're going to come into heat exactly like it may not take like there's so many factors that we're not Amazon and we're not like the other thing for me is again, I'll get on my soapbox. A lot of my females compete. So I'm not, I will withhold doing a breeding because I'm going to Master National with this mom and dad. So I can't promise a lot sometimes. And so if people want to be in on the list and like, you know, I'll do that, but I'm, we're not Amazon and you, it's just, you have to be aware that if you find the right breeder, you find the right parents, you do the right things, you may have to wait and then we'll let you know like when things happen. And if you're not right, no harm, no foul, but don't say it's April 20th and I'm hoping for a puppy in May, like exactly. It just, you have to be patient with it and understand. If you want the right one, if you're just going to say, I want a red dog. Okay, well, I can help you with that. I still don't know what timeframe though. You know what I mean? So I think going into it, no matter what breeder that you go with, I just think it's important to keep that in mind and remember that sure, you might be on this breeding in or litter and something. I mean, things can happen where that is not going to work out. If they're what I used to do is like pre book four males and four females for every litter. Well, we never got that. And then I was having to call people and say, sorry, she only has two puppy or two females and you had third pick. That's out of my control. And then they'd be so upset and so disappointed. And I'm like, nothing I can do about it. I'm sorry. So that's the reason I do the deposits, how I do now instead of booking for a specific litter. If you want to get a puppy from us, you're on a wait list and we will get you what you need eventually as long as you're patient for it. And sometimes it happens way quicker than you're thinking because I've had a litter of 10 girls before or I've had, I just had a litter, two litters with one with six boys and one with five. You know, sometimes that wait list can jump up really quickly if we have the numbers that support that. So absolutely. Yeah, I appreciate, excuse me, I appreciate all your knowledge. I appreciate you taking time out of your family time to jump on here and be with us. It was great to get to know you as well. Yeah, thank you. It was very, very educational and fun and I appreciate it. So I hope everybody jumps on Instagram and Facebook, gives you a follow. And if you're interested in learning more about our dogs, do a deep dive on the website and learn more. Yes, thank you so much. I appreciate it. Absolutely. All right, you have a great evening and we'll be in touch. Sounds good. Thanks, Bob. Bye. Bye. ♪♪♪ ♪♪♪♪