Hydrogen Space Balloon (with Jane Poynter & Ali Rohde)

Hey, it's Eric Newcomer, welcome to the Newcomer podcast this week. I'm talking to Jane Pointer, the co-CEO of Space Perspective. She's trying to take a balloon filled with hydrogen and go to space. And for that, she's charging tourists $120,000 some dollars. We get into space tourism. Her time in a biome, she was part of a famous project for two years and twenty minutes where she was locked inside a biome on planet Earth about her interest in Mars. And of course, the questions around space tourism after the tragic disaster at the Titanic. With me on the podcast is Ali Road of Outside Capital, a friend in tech, a fellow AI event host, someone who runs the Chief of Staff newsletter, and someone who I thought would be a good co-host on the podcast. So she's on with me for the episode, stick around at the end where we digest our conversation with Jane and think about the state of space and whether we would go on in this balloon. Now listen to our episode. Jane, welcome to the podcast from Space Perspectives and Ali, a good friend of mine in the newsletters. If you see AI world is going to co-host with me, hello to both of you and welcome. Hey, thanks for having us, Eric. Yeah, this is going to be fun. Yeah, I'm obsessed with space tourism. I actually saw the film about biosphere too, not even thinking about this episode. I wasn't for this episode, so I didn't go through and take all the notes I should have, but I've watched a film about you without even realizing I was going to book you. Anyway, before we get into all that, can you just introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about space perspectives and the company that you're working on now? Yeah, for sure. So I am Jane Pointer. I am founder and co-CEO of Space Perspective, a carbon neutral space travel company. Completely different than how most people would think about space travel, right? Most people think about rockets, high Gs, space roots, jammed in a small capsule, all very exciting, but definitely not for everyone. We use balloons, enormous space balloons, that take people very gently to space. And when I say gently, I literally mean you're going to space at 12 miles an hour. And so that gives you this super accessible flight, incredibly comfortable. It takes us two hours to get up to the edge of space. They were up there for a couple of hours, and then all of our explorers inside this beautifully appointed capsule come back down and splash down in the ocean. And then you're even in a space lounge completely reimagined the inside of the capsule, so that it just makes you feel incredibly relaxed. There's a bar on board, there's a Lou, there's Wi-Fi. So we really want to take as many people as possible to space. So the idea is to completely eliminate as many barriers as possible and make people as comfortable as possible about the idea of having this extraordinary experience that astronauts talk about of seeing all home planet from space. How much of it is ready today? Or like what's sort of the state of what you're selling today? You started selling tickets, or like when we had. So we have sold over 1,600 tickets. I think we're over 1,650 tickets today, which is super exciting. There are $125,000 a seat. Right now you put anything down from 1,000 all the way up to 60,000 at the moment. And that depends when you want to fly. You pay more of the earlier you want to fly. And so in terms of the technology, actually we have all the infrastructure in place, which means we're building our own space balloons. We have a full campus where we're building our own capsule. Our capsule is coming together now. We're getting into flight operations this year. We've already done a test flight before. This year we're really kicking off the full test flight campaign that leads up to commercial operations around the end of 24. So we're going to be getting into uncrewed test flights at the end of this year. Then we get into a series of crude flights. Uncrewed means nobody in it is totally autonomous. So it's autonomous and we can fly it from the ground, right, from mission control. And we have several mission controls because we also launch from a ship. So a marine spaceport, right? So envision that we're launching from the stern of a 300 foot long ship that we're calling MS Voyager. And so a spaceship Neptune launches from the stern of the ship, goes up to space and then splashes at the end. And we already have our marine spaceport as well. So we're actually really far along. I'm curious if I was an important to you to make it carbon neutral. Well, let's face it, I think all of us should be doing what we can to reduce our carbon footprint. However, you know, we're a company that takes people to space to have this incredible experience of seeing Earth in space, right? The astronauts talk about all the time repeatedly. And for them, it's not just a pretty view. It's like this really profound experience of seeing our Earth from that vantage point, right? So they see that what becomes really obviously, tenuously thin blue line of our atmosphere and they return to Earth and get more involved in socially environmental causes than before they left. I mean, it has a profound effect on them personally and apparently on their behavior as well. So we're taking people to space to have this experience of sort of really bonding with our planet in a way, right? You know, it's not our job as a company to tell people how to think. On the other hand, they are having this profound experience. So I think that it is incredibly important for us as a business to live that as well as a brand. We have to live that as a brand or we're talking about both sides of our mouths and that doesn't work well for anybody. Got it. And how do you make it carbon neutral? So the vehicle itself actually is almost in its flight, right? It's a plug in electric spaceship. And then the gas that we use to propel it to space is hydrogen. And so we use appropriately produced hydrogen. So that's extremely sustainable and not quite zero carbon footprint, but almost and then obviously in the company itself, you know, we do what we can to reduce our carbon footprint and then we offset. And let's look, let's be clear about offsets. Not a perfect tool, but is the tool we have. So we're really careful about the offsets we use. And I actually have a fair amount of experience with it. Because I worked with the UN in the wall bank way back in the day on offsets and calculating carbon footprint and carbon cycling actually through mangroves. And so we have a partnership with Cool Effects and we use their carbon offsets and we've been focusing on mangroves recently because they have so much other knock-on effects. Right. It's not just the carbon sequestration they do, which obviously for an offset is critically important. But, you know, they're also so important for protecting our coastlines. You know, they really do protect the cities and the towns that are behind them. They create an incredible nursery for fisheries and other wildlife. So that's how we are carbon neutral. I'm curious how deep or close into space have you gotten personally? Like have you done any sort of tests on this or like, yeah, would this be your first journey into space or how close are you? So I had sent a lot of things to space. I have had animals go through complete life cycles in space. We actually had the very first ecosystem I designed that went onto the Meerspace station for four months twice. Had the first animals go through multiple life cycles. And then went onto the International Space Station in the Vesna module was actually Velcro to the wall in this Vesna module. It's an entirely sealed little ecosystem filled with little shrimp and snails and astronauts and co-opin pods, like a little puny ecosystem, but in a completely sealed environment. And that was up there for 18 months. So I've had a lot of things in space as well as technologies. So one of our company's Paragon Space Development Corporation that I'm not involved in the day today anymore. But it has technologies on every human spacecraft in operation by Americans today. However, this would be my first flight there. And I can't wait. I am so sick of hearing everybody else talk about it. I want to go. And how deep in you get in sort of layman terms, like how far with these balloons like, well, it feel you're getting into space. What sort of visibility will you have? So it'll totally feel like you are completely in space, right? So the view is exactly the same view that you would get on any civil little flight. So Virgin Blue Origin. Even though they are going higher than we are, you just wouldn't be able to tell the difference in the view. It really is going to be pretty much the same. So you get that incredible black... I mean, though, the view behind me, right? The blackness of space, curvature of Earth, everything. Not obviously as far away as the International Space Station, where you are significantly higher, right? So think of it this way. We think of it as going to the Azure Space. We are in space. You know, we're above 99% of the Earth's atmosphere. It is vacuum outside the window. We're flying at 100,000 feet or 20 miles up. We're regulated as a spaceship. And so, experientially, you will have the same view. I'm curious. Can you tell us more about the regulation in that landscape? I guess it's during the Trump administration that the federal government created the space force. Is that what it's called? Right. Which I think always, like, sounds kind of funny to me at least. And maybe to others, it sounds like a fake thing, right? Like the space force. Yeah, tell us about what this looks like. Are there regulatory hurdles in your way that you're working on overcoming now? What is stopping you from going up now? So there is a regulatory environment that has been well-established. We are regulated by the FAA's office of commercial space transportation, so just like any other launch company going into space. And so, it's a pretty well-understood regulatory environment now, right? We're not to the pointy end of the stick, right? We've got Virgin. Has already done this. Is it X? Blue Origin. And for us, in many ways, it's going to actually be easier for us to get licensing. And then for them, simply because that we're flying over open ocean, it's incredibly safe. The balloon system that we're flying has been flown so many times over a thousand times by NASA, ISA, our team, other people that it's so incredibly well-understood. We're already working with the FAA counterparts on this. So we don't foresee any obstacles, really, for us to do this. You know, what you will see over time is they'll be increasing maturation. In this, there are various committees that have been set up to continue to develop this. And what's great about it is that it's being set up in many ways. The way early aviation regulation was developed, where the FAA, the government, worked with commerce to develop those standards. Because, you know, at this base, the people who are building and operating the vehicles know how they operate and where the risks are and work closely as we do work very closely with the FAA on those regulations and standards. If you believe in the regulatory regime, like what is the biggest barrier, like why aren't you in space today? Or like what is the sort of like single biggest barrier to getting people into space? Well, for us, the really isn't a barrier per se. We're building our spaceship right now. And we're getting into test flights. So, you know, like anything, we just have to really make sure that this thing is as safe as it possibly can be, which is really safe. Happy to go through all that for you. That's a perfect time. I mean, you know, the elephant in the room, obviously, sort of the ocean gate, sub-situation, very different environment. But like, I feel like it's raised all these questions about, you know, adventure, tourism, pushing the frontier. And so I'm sure safety is top of mind. I guess my first question would just be like, what if anything, did you take away in your business from, you know, the ocean gate situation? What is sort of the reaction you've seen from customers? Yes, so what's fascinating is we got almost nothing. We had two customers ask us about it and got no refunds because of it. Wow, yeah. Because it is incredibly different. And I would also say that, look, let's be really clear that in the 60 years that submersibles have been operating in deep ocean, there has never been a fatal accident. Until now. Right. So then you have to ask yourself why, and of course, I really want to focus on ocean gate per se, but the big takeaway for us was, we embrace the regulatory environment. We want the FAA to work with us. And because we also operate on the ocean, we work with the Coast Guard. So for us, we embrace that. You know, we're so beyond any standards that might be given to us by the FAA or the Coast Guard that we truly believe that it's good for us and the industry to have it. So that was the big takeaway for us, right? Alec, would you go to space? Yeah, if I had the money, too, and it were safe. Yes, it sounds extraordinary. It sounds transformative, I believe you there. Though of course, I guess, to play devil's advocate here, there are lots of transformative experiences out there. Sure, right? People tell me having it is transformative, or even like, smaller living stuff like that. I don't know, let's go like going on safari or all sorts of things, you know, going to get a degree. What is so important about going to space? That's an awesome question. So look, why I get up in the morning and what my tail off to take as many people to space as possible is because not only do I think it is personally transformative for many of the people that will go, for all the reasons that astronauts talk about. And I actually think it's going to have a ripple effect across society, right? So, you know, when you talk to people that have been to space, I mean, they speak with such passion about the experience, and they throw themselves into these incredible ventures that, perhaps they otherwise would not have done with so much vigor. Then I think, you know, if you think about the fact that only 650 people, fewer than 650 people, have ever been to space to date, and how much it captures our imagination, now imagine thousands of people have been to space, and we've got artists who have been to space and come back and do something incredible with that experience and gives us the benefit of their experience as well. We have, you know, teachers, educators, and leaders going to space. What happens is it changes your perspective and the reason that I know this is actually not because I have been to space, but because I spent two years and 20 minutes enclosed inside biosphere, too. And that experience, while not the same, turns out to end up with a very similar kind of experience. So, when astronauts see the Earth from space, they get this very clear sense of the boundary of our planet, right? And for them, the boundary is this thin blue line of our atmosphere, and then this dark blackness of space that is completely hostile to life, as we know it. When we were inside biosphere, too, for us, we absolutely could see the edges of our world, right? Now, let me just maybe describe biosphere, too. Yeah, most people know what it is. This is an amazing thing that you've participated in today, and there's a documentary out about it. So, biosphere, too, at the time when I lived inside it for two years and 20 minutes, was essentially a prototype space space. Imagine this three-acre world that it was completely sealed at the time, sealed tighter than the International Space Station, and so above ground is this glass and steel structure. And then, inside it, we had a miniature, a rainforest, a savannah, a desert, an ocean, a marsh, an area where we grew our food, and then, of course, where we lived. All of that in this little world together, and it was completely self-sustaining. So, I knew by moment that the plants around me were giving me my oxygen, nothing else, that's it. And as I was breathing out, my CO2 went to make the sweet potatoes, we were growing, for example, and we were eating so many sweet potatoes that we were turning orange and we were invisibly becoming part sweet potato. So, that was the sort of incredible dog- Is it hard not to get in your head about the oxygen? I feel like I get worried about my own apartment oxygen, or like when you're very aware that it was very much on your mind, what you were breathing? So, it wasn't in the beginning. I mean, there was a time when we actually discovered that we were losing oxygen because it was being soaked up by the concrete, but that's a whole other conversation. So, what I will tell you is the net result of this whole experience is that you are incredibly aware that your life is dependent on this biosphere. I mean, the literally moment by moment, and to be fair, we could have walked out at any time. However, we of course weren't going to. And so, we did know that our biosphere was there for us to keep us alive and for us to keep it alive, right? So, what happens when you get that experience is that you have this very deep and visceral understanding that whatever you have inside there is all you have. That's it, nothing else. And that, by extension, obviously, is the same as planet Earth, which is what astronauts see when they see it from space because they get this same, oh my goodness. Look at that, it's completely enclosed, which, you know, we can't get from down here on planet Earth. So, hard for us to get that. So, I was responsible for the food in there. I was responsible for growing all the food, and then my founder co-CEO, Tiber McCallum, was responsible for monitoring all the air and the water and that everything was sitting there. He's the governor of space perspective right now, right? You're currently... Right, yeah, yeah. So, we'd be able to think together for 35 years and also married for something like that as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's exactly right. We just had, like, our 30th or, I don't know, a lost track. Amazing. A long time. Did you meet there? So, actually, we met before because part of the training, it turns out, was also super cool. I lived at sea. I lived on a ship, because when you're... It was actually a research vessel, and I sailed across the Indian Ocean and up the Red Sea, and Tiber was on this ship, he actually sailed halfway around, almost all the way around the world on this ship. Because you're so remote, you're incredibly remote, and it is a really good, perhaps, unorthodox, but really good training to be then very remote with a small group of people that you're reliant on for insight, something like Biosphere 2. And you have a book about the experiences, that right? I do. Yes, it's called the human experiment. Two years and 20 minutes inside Biosphere 2. There is a theme around this, obviously. Two years and 20 minutes is a long time. Why the time? Was the goal two years, and then you just stayed in extra 20 minutes just for kicks? So I love to blame it on my country woman, Jane Goodall. So she was giving the speech when we were coming out, and it was at the time that she was quite rightly talking about how we shouldn't keep chimpanzees and other monkeys and cages and laboratories. And so as part of the coming out of our coming out of the Biosphere, she was a really good friend of Ed Basses. She came and she gave this very moving speech about us as a species, having a species like monkeys and cages. And then we're stuck inside Biosphere 2, where she is going on a little long. Thinking, Jane, we're the monkeys and the Biosphere and the cage let us out. So she was very gracious and ruby a blurb for my book, even though I think right in the beginning, I lay that 20 minutes right on her. Fair enough, it is catch here. Two years and 20 minutes. You're like, what happened? I'm going to throw an idea out there. Feel free to object. I'm curious, do you miss Biosphere 2, that way of living? And in some ways is your obsession and this company and the multiple companies you founded, a way to recreate some version of that world? Ah, wow. So it's not about recreating that world. It is building on top of that experience, right? So when Taberni left Biosphere 2, we'd actually already founded Paragon. We founded it while we were inside Biosphere 2 with Grant Anderson, our co-founder outside. And that company was very specifically about developing technologies that allow us people to thrive in extreme environments like Mars, right? So we really wanted to take everything we had learned from Biosphere 2 and throw it forward. So that was also about us doing these small ecosystems on the International Space Station and the Mirror Space Station and Shuttle and whatnot. Because that was actually us also developing some really basic understanding about how small Biosphere's work, which was really awesome, kind of groundbreaking research we were able to do with that, which also feeds forward to us being able to inhabit other places. And in all of that time, Taberni have been talking about, how are we going to get lots of people to space, to have this incredible experience? Because of course, I spent a lot of time with astronauts hearing them talk about this incredible experience. And I just couldn't see my grandmother going up on a rocket. Or there are too many barriers for so many people to go on a rocket. So I will never forget the day when Taberni walked into my office and said, what do you think about taking people to space using an enormous balloon? I'm like, that's it! That's exactly what we're going to do. Because it is so obviously accessible for people. And so here we are. And it really, what we're doing now, kind of brings together everything that we've done. I mean, you know, the first thing we did with these what we call space balloons was to take Alan Eustace, a Google executive at the time, under a space balloon to break the Red Bull Stratos Space Dark Records. So you probably remember seeing Felix Baumgartner taking that iconic step out of the capsule and like leaping out into the void and it's just amazing, like nail-biting moment as he's swirling down to Earth, almost spins to his death. It was very scary. I was one of the 10 million people watching this thing live. And then two years later we broke that record. We did not use a capsule for that, for a whole variety of reasons. Actually, we didn't use a capsule because it turns out to be much safer not to. For this particular thing, so we took him up to space in a space suit that our team designed, built, developed the first one, the first new space suit in 40 years developed in the US, which is kind of insane. And from drawing on an act in to breaking the record three years later, yeah, we broke Felix's record and that flight with Alan clinched it for us because he went up and his reports of what he saw, how he felt. Even though he was up there for a very brief time, just was like, okay, this is it. This is how we're going to take people to space. I'm reflecting on my own experiences. You know, I've been skydiving and I've been in a hot air balloon in like Capodotia and Turkey. And honestly, I do think this sort of like seeing the earth from a different perspective or like a safari like Ali mentioned earlier where you sort of see the planet in a whole new way. In some ways is more revolutionary than just like the adrenaline pumping of skydiving, which is like, you know, over so fast and you're, you know, you're not necessarily thinking. I remember wanting like, felt like the plane was more dangerous than the jumping out of it. Period, where it was like very tentative. But yeah, I can't imagine, you know, seeing the whole planet from outer space. I can believe that's a transformational experience. Yeah, so it's interesting that you talk about that because, you know, as a business, we kind of really think of Blue Origin and Virgin as competition because the experience is so completely differentiated, right? You know, for us, I think, you know, what you were talking about earlier, Ali, about, you know, other transformational experiences, is what you could even call wonder travel, right? In a way that these incredible, incredible safaris and those kinds of things going to the Antarctic are in some senses what we're competing against. And that's also why we priced our ticket where we priced it because it's right in there with those kinds of experience. What is the price, sir? So it's $125,000 a ticket at the moment. And you know, when the Antarctic opened up, I mean, people flocked there. You know, so we're seeing just incredible pull from customers wanting to go. I mean, you know, just the traction we're getting is incredibly exciting. We actually have an event coming up very soon with over a hundred of our explorers all gathering here at our campus. So that's also super exciting that they actually also all want to get to know each other with so we're building quite a community as well around space light and this experience. And it's going to be such an extraordinary experience of people. I truly do believe that people will be incredibly bonded from having this experience as well. You mentioned Blue Origin and Virgin. And enough SpaceX has come up yet today. Obviously, one of the first people that people think of when you mention space is Elon Musk. Yeah. You know, Jeff phases is on there too. These are controversial figures. They're probably quite different from your customers, your target market, but I'm curious. How do you think about them? Are you grateful for their popularizing space? I think. And feel free to disagree that they've helped pull space back into the mainstream and something people think about it and want to do. But feel free to disagree there. But I imagine there might be some things they get wrong and kind of like it not being the exact story that you would promulgate if you were in their position. So I'm curious your perspective there. So I think there is so much that when we could probably spend a whole hour talking about that, right? So we, Tim and I worked with Elon before he started SpaceX. So we know much. Interesting. Yeah, yeah. So we actually, very early on in Peragon, we worked with him when he was doing Mars Oasis, which was when he was going to send a small greenhouse to Mars. You know, yes. The oven myth is true. It's probably not more complicated than this, but you know, we're building this little greenhouse that's going to get taken to Mars. He goes to Russia to go buy the rocket ride and realize how expensive it is. And on the jet ride back goes, OK, I'm starting SpaceX. And then we went with him in the early days of SpaceX. You know, and you also have to remember especially in a lawns case when he was starting SpaceX at the time. I mean, first of all, space tourism was considered a joke. Then, I mean, literally, it was like, it's space, there was a new one. I know if he was going to go to space. And then at that time, also, remember that the way we were going to go to the moon, the way we were going to go to Mars, it had to be governments. I mean, the idea that a commercial entity was going to be doing that was insane. And then the idea that we would have, you know, a commercial entity, even just launching satellites to orbit, you know, they got huge pushback. And here we are. I mean, honestly, I think much more than just the messaging around it. You know, along with Gwen, let's give her a lot of kudos. I mean, she's just done an incredible job. You know, they've, they really have done a lot to revolutionize how we do space. You know, bringing the cost down, making it more efficient, more effective, and showing us that it's possible. That is so important. I mean, there's like a, an insane number of rocket companies now, like over 100 small rocket companies. You know, and that would never have happened without, you know, being shown the way by a lawn. So absolutely, even huge amounts of credit. Ask a very business-y question. I mean, you know, virgin galactic stock prices sort of collapse. I mean, what do you take that to mean in terms of the interest in the space tourism sector? Or what, do you read anything from the... Well, look, I mean, I think, you know, for us, the way we think about it is, you know, we're going to be operational fairly quickly, right? So we're going to be operational around the end of 24. And so it's a very different scenario, right? We founded the company in 2019. So, you know, we're much lower cap-backs. You know, everything about the business is faster. We're scalable, you know, we can be scalable globally. We can do routine flights very frequently. So it's just a completely different animal from a business point of view. So we don't really compare ourselves to them at all. We really focus on ourselves and our business. That's fair. That's a pretty different company, also a public company. What about comparisons to private companies like yours? We've seen a huge slowdown in venture funding overall, but especially venture funding for deep tech ventures, for hard tech ventures that require more capital than just pure software. What are your thoughts on that? Well, look, I think any company that has, you know, a long runway to get to profitability, it's tricky. It's a tricky business. There is no question, you know. So for us, we've been incredibly focused on getting to commercial operations. Obviously, safely, it goes without saying, but as quickly and efficiently as we can. That's the focus. And, you know, I think for a deep tech company like ours going from start up in 2019 to operational at the end of 2014, that's pretty, pretty quick. You know, even if we were to slip a month or two, that's a pretty fast development track. Yeah. So that's how we think about it. You've got to be focused. You've got to get there really efficiently. You've got to get there as quickly as you can. How many people is the company? Or just like, who's working on that? Like, is it all your team? Or do you have like a partner also? That's a great question. I should have talked about our team earlier because all the great ideas in the world are nothing if you don't have an awesome team. And I truly mean that. So we are vertically integrated. We make our own space balloons. We are building our own cats all. We operate our own marine space port. We have all of our infrastructure in place to do all of that. And so the team is incredible. So for example, the person who does our space balloon manufacturing actually built NASA's balloons for decades or more. And the person that is responsible for building the structure of our capsule did a lot of that for SpaceX for Dragon and for Falcon 9. And some of the early work on Starship as well. The person who is standing up all of our marine operations did that for SpaceX. Also then on what we call our experience team. Right? We're one of the very few consumer facing space companies. Right. There are basically us in version. There's nobody else. So I am so deeply steeped in space. I'm a space node that we really needed to bring in people from consumer. And so our COO is Jose Simon who ran Vice Media for 15 years. Which is super exciting, right? So he was the COO for Vice Media and stood out most of their international locations. Same with our head of marketing. The person who's our head of content brought us those iconic images of Felix stepping out of the capsule. So that kind of gives you a sense of the caliber of people on the team. So we're about 130 people. Oh, OK, so it's pretty big. Yeah, look, we're also got to keep the head count down. Got to keep efficient. But yes, we're 130 people. Mostly customer deposits funded or investor funded. So we do have obviously some deposits, but we're a VC funded fund. Yeah, yeah. You mentioned 130 people, primarily venture backed some customer deposits, but primarily venture funded. Can you share how much you've raised in from whom? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Almost 70 million and our lead investor today has been Prime Movers lab. Deep tech. Then super excited to also have a lightshed as a major investor. There are a media and consumer focused VC fund. Thus we're bringing together, you know, we're really focused on bringing in those consumer focused funds, which is super exciting. Of course, we also have a plethora of space funds as well. And then we do have some, you know, of course, some a few angels and that kind of thing. But we are mostly VC, VC funded. Oh, and Republic recently came in and then Kiranaga fund. We also, I also like to get support from local VC funds. And Kiranaga is very, he's very Florida focused. And so that's also amazing, very cool. Got it. And Florida seems to be like where so many of these companies are based and focused on, is that right? Like space companies generally, right? So keep Canaveral and. Well, certainly anybody that is in launch needs to use Kennedy Space Center or supporting. Absolutely. Yes. It's really cool to see what's happening with the local community here. You know, because there's now a very, a much more complex revenue stream for the local community. Of course, it was amazing when the shuttle was here. It was an incredible boom for the community. In fact, it's really cool to be in a place where people will talk about being in a family that's a multi-generational space family. Like, oh, my father, my granddad worked on Apollo. You know, my father worked on the shuttle and now I'm at SpaceX. I mean, it's just super cool, right? There aren't many places in the world that bad happens. And of course, that's one of the reasons why we're here. Yeah. You mentioned being vertically integrated. Yes. That sounds very similar to SpaceX. Yeah, absolutely. That's basically their invention. Sometimes it even has former members of the team helping you. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, look, there's a very good reason for that. You can be much more nimble is generally much more cost-effective. It's much easier to make changes. It's very difficult. I mean, I'll be honest, that any issues that we've been having over the last year with schedule or anything like that has mostly been stopped out of all control having to do with vendors. Not because they're bad or anything like that. They're just not part of the team as so embedded in the team. And especially in human spaceflight, when it's vertically integrated, it's a safety issue. We need to absolutely be able to do the quality control that's needed and all of that. So for us, it's incredibly important that there are critical components of this that are vertically integrated. Obviously, we get off the shelf stuff, like batteries. The batteries were a plug-in electric spaceship or aviation batteries for an example. So yeah, we're also, actually, we have been able to take advantage of a lot of these new tech companies that have really pushed some of this and also electric car companies have really pushed technologies that we are incorporating into our spaceship because they really got them robust. And for us, we're not just about getting to that first commercial flight. It's about getting to commercial flight with a robust vehicle that can be routinely operated. Think of it almost more like an airplane just going up. Perhaps not every day, but every few days, right? Okay, so you're envisioning like 100 trips per year with this? Oh, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And that's just in one location and then in vision now that we've got several locations around the world. What exists today or what is the thing that maybe right now you could tell us you're trying to figure out? Oh, well, if you were here, I could walk outside with you and take you to the space balloon factory and show you where balloons are being made right now, which is super exciting. Then I could take you down to our composite manufacturing facility where I could show you where all of the spaceship exterior is coming together very nicely. I could show you all of the incredible windows which are the largest windows that have ever flown to space are and how they're going to look inside the capsule. And this is a hard body. That's the other thing. The prototype, yeah, you're just picking. I wasn't sure. So it's a hard body. Oh, so I don't think of this as a prototype. So then, okay, so, oh, right. We need to visualize what this vehicle looks like. Exactly. Fair point. Okay, so you've got, so you see behind me, there's a giant balloon. Yeah, then you see what we call the ladder that goes from the balloon all the way down to this little teeny tiny capsule right there, which isn't teeny tiny. It just looks teeny tiny compared to the size of the balloon. It's actually large. It's 16 feet in diameter for eight customers and a captain and it's super roomy inside. Do they sit on the floor or do they? No, you can, in fact, have a very comfy seat. You will be required to be belted in for the first 15 minutes and then at the end for about the last 15 minutes. Otherwise, you are free to get up and walk around, go stand in front of one of these amazing windows. So one of our very early investors used to play basketball. So he's very tall and I promised him that when he was standing in front of the window, he would be able to look out without ducking and we've done it. So they really are these incredibly beautifully tall windows that you will be able to go stand in front if you're able to go stand at the bar, you'll be cheering. Is there wheylessness at this height or I don't know? There isn't. So it's interesting, right? So the wheylessness is actually non-having to do with how far away you are from the planet, but the flight trajectory. So you can actually get wheylessness on an airplane. There is a zero teeny tiny. That's how they do those trainings, right? Yes, exactly. So you can go get trained. I've done many parabolas as they're cool, because you're flying a parabola. You're doing this kind of flight. And when you're flying over the top, you are basically being kicked to like a football over the top inside whatever it is you're inside. So it's free-full. Here in essence, you're kind of falling with the vehicle that you're inside, which is exactly the same as is happening when you're in the Nusheva Blue Origin or on Virgin Galactics space plane. You're over the top there. You get a couple of minutes of zero G. And it's honestly, it's exactly the same as you would get if you were in the International Space Station. You're falling continuously around the planet, which is kind of a crazy concept, but that's actually what's happening. And what's interesting about microgravity is that we are very happy that we do not have it because it really is quite disorienting for a lot of people. And as I said at the beginning, we're about sort of eliminating as many barriers for people to go. And while some people may want to experience microgravity, most people really don't because it can make them feel quite bad. I mean, I won in the last part of this. There's a 2014 wired article that suggests you and your husband, Koseo, might be the first to Mars. I'm curious, have you abandoned this sort of crusade to Mars? Or what your view of sort of the chase, this is very different sort of spiritually to me than like trying to get to Mars. It's almost like appreciate the planet. No, so interestingly, the thing that I thought about a lot, as we were talking about going to Mars, and this was a flyby mission, it was with Dennis Tito, what I thought about a lot was imagine what it would be like to be so far away from planet Earth that it truly is like a little tiny pale blue dot in the sky. It's like that image that Carl Sagan talks about. Maybe we're not at the edge of the solar system, but we're going far away from the other side of Mars. And when I think about space exploration, I don't think about it as leaving planet Earth, never to come back. I kind of like this planet. I think about space exploration more in terms of, sort of even an extension of what we're doing now that space perspective, right? When people look down on planet Earth, it's just going to be this mind-blowing experience. Now put yourself on the moon and see that. Put yourself on Mars and see that. It's that tenets. I mean, it's just going to give people this wildly different perspective of what it is for us to live together in many ways as a, you know, we should think of ourselves as a singular human family living on a spaceship. I mean, that's what we're doing. And as people go further out, it will become increasingly apparent. It's almost like they're holding a mirror up to us, right? So first time we get to see ourselves in another people's living somewhere else other than on planet Earth, it's kind of this wild concept. So that's how I think about it. I don't really think about it as us, you know, leaving the planet, the tellers. I get that, I buy it. Certainly I get it for your current company. I get it for the moon, but to me you go to Mars. You're going to Mars to be on Mars. Not for the particular reason. Well, I'm not saying that you're not going to Mars to be on Mars. Of course you are. Why else would you go? But I think it will have a similar effect on people. That was my point. I think it will have a similar effect. So look, do I want to go to Mars? Yeah, maybe, but I am extremely focused right now on getting us all to space with spaceship Neptune. Let's talk about safety. I'm curious. What are people's concerns when they hear about this, when they're thinking about putting down a deposit, and what are the other things that you have in mind that you want to figure out before you can commercialize and start going? So that we get some really fun questions, right? So this is such a different way for people to think about going to space. You know, and they're used to seeing something just like whizzing out into space. And, you know, what stops spaceship Neptune from just keeping on going? Why does it stop at 20 miles up? So the way to think about that is that this is buoyancy control. And just the pure physics of it is that the balloon itself floats on top of the Earth's atmosphere. We're floating on top of 99.9% of the Earth's atmosphere. And so think of it like an ice cube floating on top of a glass of water. It just physically cannot go anywhere else. It just has to float on that water. So that's number one. And then of course the next thing is- I guess I didn't even realize just to illustrate, you know, like you think of a balloon, you're like, oh, why would it ever stop floating? We just imagine, they either float forever or I guess they like pop at some point. So you're saying physically it will just hit a limit where it just cannot float anymore. What element is in the balloon? Right, so you could use either helium or hydrogen. Helium, you can't use actually the NOAA has gone to using hydrogen in all of their weather balloons because you are in competition with MRIs and other really important pieces of equipment like that. So we use hydrogen, which is also, you know, how we're a carbon neutral company because it's a great left gas. And it can now be made in a carbon neutral way, which is really good for us. So we're in the safety question. I mean, hydrogen famously- Right, well, sadly. Well, no, sadly, it has this massive branding problem from an enormous tragedy that happened 85 years ago. Right. Right, so thankfully now, because hydrogen is being used in so many things, right, it's been used in cars and in ships and in airplanes, you know, it's just been coming so routinely used. The idea for Hindenburg, let's just call it as it was, it was the Hindenburg, really is beginning to go out of people's thinking around this. So what happened with that was it was actually not a balloon. It was an airship that was not designed for hydrogen. It was designed for helium. And it was actually dorked in a fire starter of all things. So when a spark caught on the outside, the skin caught on fire. And then the hydrogen had mixed with oxygen, with air inside the bladder, just because that's how they designed it, which of course, not good. So that's what happened with the Hindenburg, with balloons, they've actually been flown since the 1700s using hydrogen and sport balloonists all over the world have been using it for decades. And there isn't a single recorded incident of hydrogen having caused an accident in flight. So it's actually super, super safe. Okay, I buy that. I would not judge like an airplane based on, what happened 50 plus years ago. It was amazing how it's just so infrequent to the regular person that I guess that's the most famous thing to ever happen. All right, okay, anyway. Yeah, I know that, no, you bet your exactly right, right? So then the next question we get is, well, what happens if something happens to the balloon, right? So I think I already said that the balloon is incredibly well understood technology. It's huge legacy. It is in the last 20 years. You know, it's been flown hundreds of times and there has been a single in flight incident with it. However, you obviously have to have some kind of backup system. And so for us, there are series of parachutes. There's a lot of the kind that you would see on SpaceX's Dragon capsule, for example, or any capsule coming in from space. So the same kind of thing that's used, you know, when people throw giant tanks up the back of an airplane, so he's really robust parachutes. We have four of them and only two of them need to work. And they're only ever used in a backup scenario because the ship goes up under the balloon and back down under the balloon, which is also super safe because you never change from one kind of flight system to another kind of flight system. So we've really also taken out all the complexity everywhere we can because the simplest system tends to be safer. If the balloon fails and you use these parachutes, I mean, that makes sense. Like, yeah, if space, if rockets can be saved, the only issue is like, you know, humans can't sort of tumble a bunch when they're falling. Are the parachutes supposed to deploy like right away when it's falling? Oh, sure. But but also you need to understand that nothing happens very quickly. Okay. With a balloon, it all happens. Everything can happen. Oh, this thing is like deflating, yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So you'd have plenty of time to respond to whatever's happening. And fundamentally, the FAA would have to approve whatever you're gonna do. Yeah, more exactly. So they have to give us a license to operate. So they're along on this whole great journey with us and already are. Great. I'm excited. I have to save up, you know, newcomer needs to be far more expensive to get to the 120. I have to think about what order in my life that expense fits in. But awesome that this is happening. I do think sort of the mainstreaming of like private space companies is like a really cool and important phenomenon right now. And you live such a fascinating life. I mean, biosphere too to this. It's crazy. Yeah, look, I think, you know, one of the things that we're incredibly excited about is that we're making human space fly inspirational and relevant to so many people, right? That's our goal is to really have it part of our culture, part of the global culture, if you way. Well, to put it in grandiose founder terms, every founder wants to change the world, right? That is what we're doing. I mean, we have the opportunity here to really be an incredibly important space brand and really bring it into the culture, which is why we're, you know, working with artists that I can't talk about yet. But stay tuned. There will be some very exciting partnerships coming up to talk about. Awesome. Cool. Thanks, Jane. Thanks so much for coming on the show. Awesome. My pleasure. Great to meet you. Great. Awesome. Alex, thanks. Alex, you want to stick around for a few? Sure. I wanted to try a post game, if you're out for it, or like as you have a few more minutes. I don't want to be, what was your main takeaway from that? What stood out to you the most and what were you sort of skeptical of the most? Skeptical of, I didn't ask, but would be curious about you don't economics. We didn't get there, but very curious about that. You know, 70 million dollars of VC funding. It was not that much for a company going to space. I actually don't know how much space X has raised or a company's like it. Do you have a sense? I actually didn't even know the 70 million. Like their pitch book, I don't even know if it's up to date. I'll Google after this to see if it's news. Yeah, no, I don't, I think I'd look too, and I didn't see that in Prime Movers lab. I've heard because I actually do some deep tech investing myself, but you know, not a big name. So that's interesting. Yeah, some questions about that. I think what really struck me is that she just made it sound so easy. Like we just go open and believe, oh, and then also it's 12 miles an hour, and it only takes two hours, that's 24 miles up. I googled, and depending on where you are, and like compared to sea level, can take, you know, 20 miles up to 60 miles. So it seems like within the right order of magnitude, but it all just sounded so easy in a way that I was not expecting, and it doesn't sound like the hurdles or regulatory in nature. So it sounds like they're kind of just manufacturing, they're like getting all the parts together, and then I think that Washington is going to be demand. And I kind of got it this when I was like, so this is transformative, but like, there are a lot of transformative things out there. Like why this? She played the Noah Drennellan thing to the most positive way you could, which is, you know, it sort of messes some people up. But I do think a lot of these sort of adventure travelers as wanting a Drennellan, and the sort of zero gravity being a piece of that, and I do think people associate going to space with zero gravity, even if that is, you know, not the most sophisticated take necessarily. I mean, I do like, then like this is kind of anti-climactic, like, he feels like I'm in a plane. Have you been in a hot air balloon? I have not. I could have Skydive, but no, no hot air balloon. Right. I feel like Skydive, once you're in the parachute, you're just dangling, you get to take everything then? Did you like Skydiving? I did, I did. I certainly, I've done it once, so I didn't do it alone. I think that's a different thing. Same, same. So yeah, so then you're really just like, you know, chilling. And my wife is definitely glad I went Skydiving before, so she doesn't feel like, she has no interest. So I'm like, you know, I've done the thing. I don't know, I would do it again. But I think some friends who are like, not, I guess they could have been professional, they said that there are professionals, but like truly like real Skydivers, they did these like crazy formations in the sky. Like big groups, have you seen this? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's insane. I'm curious, what about you? Are you an adrenaline junkie? Or obviously, really into space. You set up this episode, you are curious about this. What peaks you are in dress? Why are you excited about it? I had an episode with Deli and at Varda. So I'm, this is my now my second space episode. Okay. I do like, you know, the sort of Peter teal thing where, you know, we wanted flying cars and we got 140 characters. That resonates with me. Unlike Peter teal, I wish there was some great American government project that it was doing it and not these sort of private industry efforts. On the other hand, I think covering Silicon Valley, I've just come to believe much more in private enterprise achieving things. So I'm rooting for these companies to succeed and I guess my ideological evolution over time has seen that companies do these things. The thing that makes me sad is, I feel like we miss out on the sense that all of society gets to feel like they're part of it. And I think this space tourism thing, in particular, is the realm of the wealthy, right? I mean, it's super expensive to do. It's, I mean, even though it sounds like maybe they're gonna take artists up or something. And Jane seems like someone scientifically minded and socially minded. But it's still like fundamentally these businesses have to be built on the backs of the wealthy and that's not a very universalist principle. And so that makes me a little sad. But it is sort of the best path that I can see. Yeah, maybe we can talk to someone maybe not in the space force because I don't know how much they'll be able to say but kind of who has some inside track to what's going on there and how they're thinking about working with the space axis of the world. That would be curious because there is the space force. I think we read all day about the private companies doing this work, but obviously NASA's still going and doing incredible things. And there are publicly funded government institutions working on this problem. I don't know how they interact in some ways they like are positioned as competitors to each other and certainly, as she said, I thought it was interesting. I think Elon faces similar thing which is like, what are you doing? Private companies don't do this and it's just the realm of the government. And in some ways, that's completely flopped. But I think I wouldn't be surprised if we were surprised how much is actually going on driven by the federal government in this area. And like everything in commercialization, a lot of it is built on earlier government work, like she was saying, it's like, oh, we hired people from NASA who worked on balloon. So clearly, and not everything has to fit into my ideological fantasy. So where's the government in this? But it's just, on the one hand, it's amazing, on the other hand, you want it to feel like something every American or ideally, every human being feels. It's good for them that they have a rooting interest in that they're tax dollars or maybe contributing to it. Yeah, there's something very patriotic about it too. Like we see war times as being moments when our country is much more unified. I think it's happened at least some extent with the Russia Ukraine conflict. And yeah, Houston's still national pride to see our country doing this, especially during the space race with the USSR. So a lot is lost. You do some deep tech investing. Yeah. There's an argument that the best time for these types of investments were when interest rates were zero. That's right. And that we're sort of in a lagging period where everybody sort of, you know, in space is slow. It takes a lot of work. So everybody figured out that maybe we should do this stuff when interest rates were zero. Now they're not. But how does that sort of, you know, where long term people are thinking more short term and so long term projects are less exciting? I don't know, do you have anything? Yeah, I think I tried to ask that. And she answered, I think there's a, I invest really at the earliest stages. And I've really seen that the earlier stage companies, I really much were protected from the economy and what's going on there because they just have to raise less money. Like if you have a company, I mean, 130 people isn't nothing. That's a real company. But that's very different than having 600 people in your company. And so, you know, I don't know when they raised most recently, but if they have some good amount of the 70 million stock piled up, then that can last them some time with a small team. Especially if they're getting customer deposits. Yes, you asked that and she didn't really give much weight to that. I would be curious. She said they had 160 customers at 125K each, though I'm not sure she said that they all paid the full amount, like they might have put a deposit down. So in which case that would be, it would be like $20 million. Yes, yes, that's real. That's real. That's meaningful, especially if you've raised 70 million. Especially if she's also like, we're going to keep promoting and we love the popularity. That means like, oh, you're going to keep pre-selling these things, right? That's right. Yeah, that was crazy. I don't love pre-selling. I don't love pre-selling. Yeah, I know. That was very surprising. I don't like pre-selling. I guess that is my biggest reservation. And one thing to sit, you know, talk about a timeline for something you can't deliver. Like you could always one day show up with a fully built rocket. People would be amazed. You could get all your hype when it's ready and like sign people up. You know, the reason to pre-sell is, you're sort of faking it till you're making it and raising, need the money to, anyway. But that's how it works. Yeah, I also don't know exactly how it works. Like, as we know, in this industry, there are huge delays. In many industries, there are huge delays. This is one of them. And she kind of mentioned this a little bit herself, you know. Goal is start going end of 2024. Invent extensive, yard extensive. I'm curious how these pre-sales work. And like, if it doesn't happen, if it happens like five years behind schedule, do you get your money back? I don't know. There, I think there's probably some complexity, I'm just not aware of. It's all complicated, I'm sure. To the listener, why is Ali on this episode? I'm exploring co-host, Ali is someone who I think of as cutting through it and being no bullshit, especially for a VC. You used to work in politics, which is something I value and you can hear through what you're saying. Who is the congressman? Here are. Scott Heiber. A very press savvy guy, right? Very press savvy, for sure. Democrat, right? A Democrat, yes. Democrat. Anyway, I've been valedity. I thought you'd be a good fun co-host and sort of an experiment. You're also deep in AI world. We're both hosting AI events and so I've gotten to acknowledge. You also helped me find my chief of staff in New York. Yes, yeah, I do. All sorts of things. I run a chief of staff newsletter. I run my own venture fund called Outside Capital. And I've been putting on a ton of events. What do you call them? Thursday nights in AI. So they are roughly every other Thursday night. I think we're scheduled for Reed Hoffman later this year and he's going to do a Thursday. So we're like, all right, Wednesday nights in AI. Reed, we will allow. It's a busy guy. We're forced 30 under 30. So we should be completely wary of you, as we are. Oh, of course. But they've been so much freaking fun. Just getting to interview these guys last week who had Drew Houston join us, the Dropbox CEO. And he was really interesting. He's a public company CEO, which was great. I spent my time in the realm of the private company. So just getting to talk to someone who's in that world is great. And he's been leading Dropbox since he co-founded it in, I think, 2007. I might be wrong for a long time. I actually look at these guys who are like founded the company and they're still leading it as CEO. Like Mark Zuckerberg comes to mind as another one of these guys. And I have so much respect for them. Because they don't have to still stay with their companies. They took it public by any measure. Especially their company isn't like a home run. I mean, Dropbox, he made a fortune and he could stop. But Mark Zuckerberg, he runs an empire. Dropbox, he's doing the hard work of trying to keep it relevant. Totally hard, unglamorous work day after day. Like having to deal with earnings calls and analysts and watching your stop price and your employees getting concerned, oh, got it so much. And the funny thing is he's really, and you could see this at our event and we'll have the video up soon. He's really just like an engineer hacker at heart. Like Dropbox isn't putting out some AI features. They've moving incredibly fast. And then on the weekends, he's like prototype and building on his own. So that was really cool. But there's so much energy in AI here in SF. That's why we have to bring you Eric Bath, a little bit more crazy. I know, my Twitter says I live in Crown Heights. I couldn't be more transparent about it, but every day people think I live in, and I, you know, host them. Are you in missions? Yes, and that's right. You had an incredible conference. Hopefully we'll get to host you again out here and just bringing it out of these leaders. And I imagine you felt the power of it. It's just crazy to get to talk to people who are doing the thing. They're leading this world. And actually, I think in the, because of AI, our world, tech world, startup world, technologist world, just got like so much more influential. For a better or for worse, but like it is so exciting to be here and to be talking to these folks and like seeing what they're like, seeing what they're thinking, seeing what they're hearing. So that has been awesome. And yes, I love bringing my politics sensibility and kind of asking questions that stick out to me. And like it's just so funny, right? Everything sticks out to different people. So like talking to you. You're straddling utopianism and cutting through it at this. I'm like, I'm worried. I don't know. You're too positive right now. You're a conjurer. Where's DC sensibility? You go back and forth. That's right. I do go back and forth. I told you this, I like, I always feel between two worlds, because I'm out here and I'm like, wow, these people are like a little quite optimistic and like quite like, there's not cynical. Like I need to go to New York and I like to need to be around people using sarcasm. And then I go home to New York or we're from outside of DC suburbs and people are so negative. They're so judgey and I'm like, guys, like you're only hurting yourselves. Like think bigger. It's okay to hear something out there. And I'm just like, there is no place where the alleys of the world belong. But it's nice to be able to. It's an active, you know, like reporting professionally teaches you to just be sort of annoying, critic. I mean, it's useful, but like, you know, I do believe, and I've said this before and just like having to construct a positive version of the world, not positive as an upbeat, but like if not a private industry space company, what do you think is the answer, et cetera? And like, once you hold yourself to that, it's much harder to just be like, push back on everything. Because at the end of the day, some thing needs to be the positive vision of the world. And that has sort of been the intellectual practice that I've had to go through moving from. It's not even being independent. It's moving from being objective journalists where it's like the practice is removing yourself from it to a form of journalism where I'm part of it. And therefore, I have to have that anyway. And totally, I think to take you back to Jane, that's what I was thinking during this call. I was like, I don't share your vision of entering space as the transformative experience that every consumer needs to have. But like, boy, am I glad that you exist? And that like you're doing this work and that people like you are pushing this forward. Totally. All right, that's a perfect ending. Thank you so much for coming on the show. All right, I'll talk to you soon. All right, bye. That's the episode. Thanks to Allie Road for co-hosting with me, Jane Pointer, for being our wonderful guest. Shout out to Tommy Herron, our audio editor, Riley Concello, my chief of staff, Annie Wen, I'll produce an intern this summer. And of course, young Chomsky for the theme music. Please like, comment, subscribe on YouTube. Give us a review on Apple podcasts. And of course, subscribe to the sub-stack. Add newcomer.co. I'll see you next week. Goodbye. Goodbye. Goodbye. Goodbye. Goodbye.