Innovating Web3 w/ Richerd | The Journey of Manifold

Welcome back to another episode of NFT catcher podcast. We'd like to remind everybody that nothing on the show is meant as financial advice and to please do your own research. Thank you and enjoy the show. Now the subject is NFT. They're known as non-fungible tokens or NFTs. NFTs are floating in popularity. This is a technology that will help ever change the way people interact. So it is happening whether you understand it and like it or not. You have now joined Jenny from the blockchain and Michael Keane on the NFT catcher podcast. What's up, everyone? And welcome back to another episode of the NFT catcher podcast with me, Jenny for the blockchain and my co-host Michael Keane. For today's interview, we have Richard Dot East joining us. He's the co-founder of Manifold XYZ and an OG in the NFT space. We are so honored to have him on the show. Honestly, I've been trying to get him on for a while now. So this is kind of like a dream come true guest for me. So yeah, I'm pumped to have you on. Richard, welcome to the pod. Great to be here. Hey, yeah, we met at Vcon actually this year. And I was like, this is my chance to shoot my, you can't reject me in person. I'm gonna shoot my shot in person. And I asked you to come on the pod and you said, yes, so let's go. You're going to be glad to have got there. Yeah. Oh my gosh, you don't with such a blast. Yeah, that was, I mean, and I know you went to, you went to both of them, right? Yeah, I was there last year. Yeah, say what the first year, it just had a really great time. So when I got asked to come back again this year, I was like, yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah. I really like, I think I like what Vcon the most is that it should need it there is just so awesome and so if you it, right, last year was more focused on interviews with this year, it was for folks telling you it's like, personally, well, man, it's motivation. You know, it was a big, well, it's great component, but that wasn't, you know, a good name, really for like, offered to chill. Yeah, it's always fun. Like, just meeting other people in the industry and networking and like, everyone's so friendly and nice, counterminds me of festivals a bit where it's like, everyone's just so happy to be there. And it's like, you can literally just talk to anybody. And they're just going to be excited to talk to you because, you know, they're all so just excited and happy. Jenny just got back from Bonner, I know, I'm back from Bonner. You know, I did some things. I'm feeling good. But yeah, I probably shouldn't talk about my experience on the pod, but it was a lot of fun. Actually, saw that you went to Burning Man. I was going to your Twitter. That's like my dream festival that goes you. That's like the ultimate. Everyone says, oh, Burning Man, that's a huge game changer. Like, that's like totally different from every other festival. Yeah, I did the Burning Man 5 times. Yeah. So it's 2018. I actually built the big giant shelter. Is it a 20-foot floating dreading slide? Had LEDs on it, you know, went up at Burning Man and everything. And then at the end of the week, we burned it as you do at Burning Man. Oh, sure. Oh, wait, you burned everything at the end. I didn't know you burned everything. No, no, no. So if you thought it's culture there, but for Burning, you actually have to decide to be burned. And so it's cool to rule regulations for rules around safety and, you know, materials you have to use. Right. So when we created this culture, it'd be a testing for the birds or it was to burn it. Interesting. That's it. Yeah. So, you know, it's so many, many mods to create the sculpture. It was, you know, and to transfer it there, build it into the desert, which is no need to keep by itself. It would then self-curve all this way for about five days. And then it was burned. Yeah. Yeah. It's a very crafty one because that, you know, at first I was like, yeah, it's awesome. But by the end of it, I was just like, oh, so glad that you were able to stay there. Yeah. Yeah. It's the memory now. Jane, that's crazy. Five times. Sorry. Are you going again this year? I'm not going this year, but I am trying to do it next year. Nice. But definitely something that definitely something you should check out. Yeah. I think they're supposed to go at least once. It's their career. That's all my bucket list. You know, I went my first year. Yeah. I went to my first year of like updated. This is, I think everyone should go at least once. My course to be going together. And record a pod from there. I think we should record some of that. I think we should all. Yeah. That's all my bucket list for sure. I'd love to get a burning man. Right. That would be a say interview. Richard from Burning Man, 2024 burning. Yeah. Let's get out of the burning man. Glad to get out. There's no internet there. Oh, traditionally, there's been no internet there. So it's always been a good chat with that blog. But now that's starly that could be available. There's always people about, you know, internet connections there. So when I was there, one of my friends had it. So did you want to get internet? Like, no, I don't want to touch. I will touch anything. Right. Yeah. You don't want to add a banner. Like my sister and I, we just left our phones in our car the entire time. Like we did not, like we would just walk around ask people for the time. Like, oh, what's the next step? What's the time? Like it was just so freeing to not have like any kind of, you know, connection or anything. Like some people they would take photos for us and send it to us. And it's like, okay, that's kind of nice because, you know, that's the one thing that I, that kind of sucks. It's like, oh, you can't take photos. But it is so freeing just not having your phone. Yeah. Okay. We got to jump into the NFT portion of this. I want to know how you got started in the NFT space because I know you are a huge OG. I mean, you're one of the first people I followed on Twitter for sure. Yeah. Everyone kind of knows you in the space. I get you're in the NFC's, you know, Richard. And yeah, I'm very curious how you got into Web 3, how you got started. It's actually funny because everyone thinks I'm an OG, but I don't really consider myself an OG NFC person. So, you know, I got, that's what every OG says. Well, it is so, you know, when I start. So I bought my first NFT in January of 2021. So little over two years now, you know, NFC's of the route since 2017. So, you know, that really, that OG, but, you know, I hit that. I was right before the series wave in, you know, compared to the one. So, you know, how did I start? Well, I did an NFC for, you know, the last few years. I'd have been a crypto for a long time. So, you know, I made crypto since 2012. So, I'm an OG crypto, but, you know, I'd say not so much to Web 3. And yeah, so my NFT story goes like this. So, I was sitting around on the, you know, it's kind of like near the end of COVID, or after all the lockdown and so forth. And then my co-founder, Eric, he sends the NFC just bought it this day away. It's around Christmas of 2020. And I'm like, well, would you buy? And he's like, I bought this, I bought this art crypto door. And I was like, he's got how much of this thing? It is, it's like a side study thesis, like $1,500. So, it's like, well, to it, like, sure, like you do you, but I was like, dark school. The week later, he said to the other one, I'm like, oh, this cool. And then after that, he said to the other one, he said, he's like, hit, this, these, these are selling data. I need to go bottom and go down the FDA way. And there were 16 one of ones from Simon Sunday. And I was like, sure, I'll do it. So, then I was like, how do you buy a wave six? He's like, oh, do you have a U3? I'm like, yeah, I got you. So, like, they're going about say at 4 p.m., they can tick the button. It's first person can click the button in the world, gets it. And I was just like, that's ridiculous. If you're saying the whole world is going to cheat, to be the first person, they'll like send this, you know, tick the button. And if you're the first person, then you get it. And I was like, how much are you seeing? So, these were four grand each. And I was just like, okay, that's pretty pricey. But, sure, I'll do. So, you hop on his equal at a time. We're like, what can you say? And I'm a lot of books on the FDA way. And I'm like, okay, so, you know, being a developer, I was like, oh, I can like, as I expected, the issue, that was like, and I was like, like, you can enable the button. So, I enabled the button, and it sent me to the next page, or see the actual choco cage. I enabled the button again, and it sent the rubber best to three different best to the midfielder server. So, then I was like, hey, you know, okay, why were you sending the buttons like like claps? We can just like program it to like hit the button on the hide. And so, I went with the quick script to like put them requested and just like submit it. And then put it in. So, we have it, I don't know, go back to your channel. And so, I had 16 of these like, processes going just to try to buy you some of them. So, for the other buttons, I hit the button anyways, and you know, it instantly sold it, like, and then it's it. So, I was like, well, that was fast, right? All the likes, all I'm interested in, sold it, sold it, and yeah, I'll take over again. So, then, and though five minutes later, I did it, you know, saying to your purchase, like, machine two or two from time to time, I was like, cool, I'm like, so what did I buy? And then Eric was like, well, you buy your first OFC. So, I was like, what do we do with this thing? He's like, well, you have pretty options. There's only three things you can do with these right now. You can hold it, you can sell it, or you can trust her. So, he's like, selling is probably the most interesting thing to do. So, I was like, sure, I was like, how much do we sell it for? He was like, give us a second of the bank, she was like, damn it, damn it, damn it, damn it, damn it, damn it, damn it, damn it, I was like, we said it buys her $50,000, and he's like, bro, you'd be bad. You sounded like 20 minutes flying this thing. You made $11,000, would you be, you know, would you be upset? I'm like, no, but I'm like, I'm like, no one's going to buy it at $50,000. So, let's say that we caught up, could be having a pot for a while in the COVID, and then after it hit up, they had email saying, sold for $50,000, and I was just like, we buy this. And so, you know, I had a bunch of new emotions at that time. I was like, okay, you know, just kind of happy that you'd made $11,000. I also was like, kind of sad that I lost this thing that I had to, I thought it was really cool. At that point down, it just clicked for me, like, what if he couldn't be, so being crypto, it was all, it was all about building technology around moving money back and forth, moving it buys for A to B in no different matters and so forth. But at this time, there was actual emotional connection to the thing I had purchased. And I thought that was really interesting because, you know, I had the sights, this caught that idea of loss of origin. I had this thing, I had this thing, they had any more, and other people were kind of participating in this kind of market. And that was like really, really interesting because I was like, you know, it's been a while since I felt something like that. So, actually, crypto, and I was like, this is going to be crypto, it's like big consumer application that anybody can understand. And it made it, to me, it makes the intangible, which are visual assets tangible and gives them the properties of real world, you know, items. And that was the sort of start of how I started, you know, the game to empties. So from there, obviously, you were like, how do you do it in? So started building more technology to software, it proved my bottom sales. So I was pretty convinced on that to get ready for a while. But then as we started collecting artworks from artists and talking to them, what are artists that we talked to, didn't understand what the technology went through, what they were selling. They thought it has just a new sales channel for selling art. But coming through a blockchain and further the background, like there's so much more to do here. And it was started working with artists and helping them create this technology to create smart color drafts and NFTs, which eventually led to creation and animal. So that's how that's, that's our story of hot method. Bye. So then, okay, so Nifty Gateway, that was your first NFT, you sold it. And then, I mean, then when did you just start, did you just immediately start collecting a bunch of NFTs from there? How did you get your famous crypto punk that you're known for now, like the 3D glasses, but the cigarette, which you're wearing, the 3D glasses right now, like when did you, when did you buy that? And when did you start collecting NFTs and really just going all in on that? So started collecting pretty much immediately. So every single Nifty Gateway drop, I was there, because there was, every day, it was time in Nifty Gateway, where if you bought a Nifty Gateway, the price automatically went up. And so, you know, it was just like, how do you just buy more things for the sake of buying more things? Because it's more like I was so phrasing it up then. So did that for a while, tried to let me guys like, this is interesting, but it really just wasn't interesting because it was, or it was something part of it, as much as the psychology part of, like, why were people buying these things? And then, yeah, it just started becoming a selector, and started talking, building network up, what's among the artists, you know, I think the big thing was, we started working, so we collected one of Mad Dog toys, it works, so either one and one from the seconds you get your drop. From there, we got to talk to Mad Dog, and Mad Dog was just like, really cool. And we started talking about the technology, and he's like, yeah, let's do a project for it. And so we created, we worked with him on his second, or his service to get your drop, if you like, a lot faster than that. But we created a bird mechanic for it. And so back then, you know, there was a lot of classic bird, but we designed this whole bird program, where it's for a decade, uh, for Mad Dog Jones conditions. And, you know, we had, we modeled everything, we had all the intelligence data, and it was like, hey, here's what's going to happen if you do, you know, in spur with these pavers and these pieces, and we expect in the price of these pieces, we go, you know, maybe a five or six X. And so they started off at $1,000, and by the end of the first week, these open editions that were part of the campaign were selling for $150,000, which completely blew all of our models away, because we're like, well, like, what is going on here? So from there, Mad Dog was like, oh, that was really cool. We all did together as part of the campaign. And how do we make this like really awesome enough TX that kind of was just like crazy. That's like truly an NFC. And so we created the Mad Dog Jones Replicator, which was an NFT that was on its own software server contract. And the NFC can only exist, or this, this artwork has a classic, and only it just says NFC. So it's like, I was like a prototype goal, NFC artwork, right? So it was supposed to think about NFTs as being an image or a J-Pid, and then you, you know, to the blockchain, but this piece would actually be linked to this for our cloud track itself. And so that was the sort of metaphor. And during this time, how does it was getting more involved with, you know, NFCs in general? Uh, crew plots are always on the side. As almost like people who were cryptopolis had to start to status them, because there were, you know, there were like, oh, oh geez, like true OGs in my mind. You know, I just look at these things. I like, I have a lot of lightning things. And so I started researching them for a while. So it asked them for like, you know, what is the value of cryptoplock? And they were pretty much, you know, the idea behind it, when I bought it was, if you had a cryptoplock, you were either someone who was like a true OG, or you just had really high conviction in this race, because the other was pretty expensive. And so yeah, I spent two weeks researching what do you have here? Let's try to understand what's going on here. I decided to buy one. I chose a cryptoplock because it kind of looks at me, you know, I kind of have property care. And it's not pretty good. It's really cool. No, when it comes to the cigarette, it's kind of funny because I just thought, you know, these are cryptoplock. So it's just the edgy. And so I bought the one with a plug with a cigarette, you know, a funny sort of that has actually bought that the day before Matt will start. So instead of like me saying, I'm committing myself to the edgy status by, if you go buy a cryptoplock and then, you know, starting a manifold and try to build something in this space and soul. After that, I used it up, I switched it to my identity, and it has been that ever since. And I started by War 3, you got to the update, starting with three bosses, go to like conferences and in my meetings and so forth. And yeah, I just became part of my identity. That's awesome. I'm going to say one more thing then pass it over to Michael. One of the most controversial things that you've ever done, I would say, is you're like, I'm sure you're about to say, I mean, we're, we're twilight, we're fun. No, but I think this was truly like this topic. Yeah. Like everyone was like, you're crazy for this is basically you made a statement saying that you were not going to sell your cryptoplock. Like it was like your forever punk back in October 2021. And Po app proves the attendance protocol kind of tested that and and place a 2,500 each bid on your cryptopunk. And you turned it down and everyone was like, what the heck, Richard? Why would you turn that down? Like what? Like what? And, and you know, obviously they're trying to call your bluff, right? And you're like, whoa, I said what I said, like, yeah, I'm curious to hear like your your thoughts around that. And you know, at the time, when all that was going down, like, what was going on inside your head? Yeah, that's really important. So, when I got a vote of it, I was actually doing the interview. Like I was in a interview, I didn't get any experience or editable and all of a sudden, I get all these messages just a lot to everyone trying to reach me like a fourth boy guy, like my, the locations for going crazy. I was like, okay, so it was like really trying to get a ball of me right now. So you're in this interview, you know, trying to do a technical interview. And I was just like, well, that's like, I just just checked this right. And then I looked at it, I'm like, oh, what is going on here? Like at first, I was like, is this like a setup? Because it's a scam. And, you know, I just really couldn't deal with that. I just, you know, had my attention on this interview. So I was like, I thought I think I'll be the first, but then, you know, after I didn't read it, I like went to go look and like, okay, this is legit. There's a 2,500, you did on my crib box. I'm like, who is sending you this? I was like, oh, I'm like, who is co-op? I knew, I knew a co-op, but like, I wasn't sure if it was actually linked to a co-op itself. And, you know, I've never had any interaction with co-op, other than, you know, we were all saw in a Zoom call or a DNS setup with a brain, DNS, mid-fabricating, I think collaboration. And so at first, I was like, this can't be real, right? And so I was talking like, like a matter of, is this like a setup? Is this like, you know, I gotta accept this day? Is it gonna like, you know, mid-bottomic, rejected it? So I just wasn't sure, right? So I started popping up people, and they're like, I'm like, first of all, who is behind co-op, and they have this shirt up to three shields after people, and they're like, no, this is, they're like, this is the three shield. He's crazy. This is a real offer. And then, like, why do you offer me? She, 1,500, sorry, this thing's so sesame, but yeah, go, but I thought about it. The only reason why you offered me the, the offer was because of the, you know, the conversation I was with did before, I was saying, you know, it was all the clock because, you know, it just means that much to me. And, you know, when I think about what I said that, you know, I actually meant it. Like, I didn't build like up this brand, I mean, or like, myself, I, as part of the clock, and that's just meant a lot. You know, I mean, for me, I'm a person of like, high-heatherity. You know, I said, there's something I do it, right? I think that's the really rare interpretive space. So for me, it's just like, you know, being true to myself, let's take part of it. And then, yeah, I know, I set the set down. And as I was going through the decision, I was like, well, you know, I think the default, the default for me was to reject it. So I was trying to think about why would I accept this, say to what were the reasons that were making one accept this? And I couldn't think of any good reason that was true to myself of why I would accept this. So, you know, I might, it might be different or logical, but looking at what would have been like, yeah, of course, there's no ending up except, you know, that turned down 2,000 batteries. But for me, it was the other way around. And I was trying to convince myself the opposite of why I should accept versus this. Why not? That was kind of the opposite. And then, you know, after I projected it very very famously, and then after we talked about the picture afterwards, and you know, we did a good friend's summer sense. And it's actually funny because then I thought, look, why did you, you know, offer it? And he's just like, I just wanted the book. He just wanted the punk. Yeah, just wanted the punk. Trying to take it over your brand. Michael, go ahead. Yeah, well, that's a wild story. And that was people, do you remember that was 10 million US at the time? Yeah, because like, that was more than it is now. I need to think about the US. Yeah, that was 10 million US at the time. So if it was 10 million, you probably would have taken it, I assume. Oh, it's only one day. So I know. I don't know. Yeah, someone sent another. I love that. So that's like a quarter million. You probably have reason. Does anybody have that? I don't know. I don't know. You probably have to take it at that point. But that's awesome. That's really cool. Richard, it's a pleasure to have you on. You've definitely been one of our bucket list guests for a long time. I know. We've talked about him so many times. Yeah, we've talked about you. We've talked about manifold. I mean, the the impact that manifold had for artists can't be understated. Jenny and I were here from the, you know, from the beginning and see, you know, it was, it was hard for people to put our projects. She had the higher devs and you had to do this and that. And now they have all these amazing tools that their fingertips their own contracts. I mean, we remember the Open C share contracts and all people that got caught up in that. And what you guys have done, what you're, what you and your team have done. I mean, it's, it was revolutionary for artists. And, and I know you're still adding things and still building. And I just, just kudos, man. Like, I think it's one of the most important tools that's been built. I've said, like, I think it's as important for digital artists as like, like regular artists getting like an art supply store in their town. You know, like, it's that like revolutionary for people. It makes it so easy. And you give it to the artists for free. So it's like, it's incredible. Definitely love that. Yeah, you know, I think one of that, you know, I think that she's the might as that. You know, we came, we came from the, the gave me background. I get a baby. And we followed just how much kind of wall gardens and platforms were taking drown creators in general. And so, you know, coming up in manifold, we're like, how should things be done in crypto or true? And, you know, talking to artists, you know, especially digital artists, digital artists had always just been so disadvantaged, because they're what they will mean to put them in black as work. A lot of artists that we were talking to, we're always working, you know, like thyroid jobs, working pretty much paycheck to paycheck, not being respected, or paid property sort of work, you know, they were overworked in many cases. And so, NFTs just offered this, you know, new way for them to, you know, navigate the create, create a work and create a work and express their creativity and be able to be able to be going off of it. And so, when we started manifold, we're like, you know, these are the people we want to, we want to help, right? There is something here that's very special. Or the, this group of artists, so we created something that, you know, needing ours myself, kind of, right? I understand the hardest is to be creative and, like, create something. And so, yeah, we just like had that mindset from the restart, and we've always been, you know, we've always tried to operate the company in, you know, the high for guards for doing the right things for pretty much everything. It's all, it definitely seems like that. What are some of the coolest use cases you've seen come through manifold? Like, what are the coolest things you've seen people use it for? So, I think, okay, so I think one of my favorite campaigns is the PR guitar man, so Chris met cap. So, you know, he did this, he did this, like, really forget a, you know, pretty much reading the life into the ad-tatt as an avenue. And so, you know, he sold, I think like 21,000 red and ad-tats or the ad-tats were probably sold for like, I think like $7 a piece. Yeah. And from there, he's just been taking the remituring them into a different, different iterations of these things. You know, I thought that was just like a really, really fun campaign because I think that that kind of demonstrates what the future of NFTs could be because, in this case, here, the NFTs, people were buying them or a speculation, they were buying them because for the enjoyment of the NFTs themselves, right? And it seems sort of mitigated that was created on the blockchain to try to collect, you know, more and more ad-tats. And, you know, it kind of brings back the idea of, you know, NFTs are about consumption, they're about enjoyment, and they're about collecting. I think that a lot of what we've seen in the last year or so has been a lot of a specialization, which was fun for understanding until it's not, but it's not sustainable in a lot of ways. And so, you know, my, why I see the vision for the NFTs is being, or if he's general, is that NFTs are just going to be, you know, prevailing all across the internet. They're not going to be, so they're going to be things that you interact with, they can be things that you engage with, collect, but, you know, the price isn't going to be the biggest factor of that. And, you know, I think, well, what we're doing right now, I mean, we're trying to build that future. So, you're just a lot of capitalism, if you wish to, and so now, you can pretty much meet NFTs for credit, instead of, you know, dollars, or you're going to have these dollars, depending on the gas prices. And so, you know, our whole goal right now is to build tooling to make recent and collecting NFTs just way more affordable and accessible across the board. That's awesome. Talk about optimism a little bit if you don't mind. I don't know enough about it, but I've been hearing a lot. And I think that the founder was interviewed, I missed it on Twitter spaces a couple days ago. So, why did you guys choose, choose it and how is it kind of integrating in the system? So, you know, I think that, when we think about Ethereum itself, one of the issues has always been scaling Ethereum. So, there's two, let me back as there is that how much volume can you or I feel mature, actually volume can you book your, the network itself? And so, you know, the price of Ethereum itself. And so, you know, let's just say Ethereum is wildly wildly successful. Also, the price of Ethereum is now, I don't know, like, $10,000 per... Let's go! But just know, it's just thing's not right. You know, there's, like, there's definitely though, right? It's time is that already... Right now, yeah, yeah. The price is now going to be, I don't know, like, 100x what it is right now. So, if you're paying... Right. You know, $5 to NFC is now going to be $500 to NFC, right? Which is just not reasonable that any single person in a world, right? It worked before, because people were sending $100 to NFC, that's just because they value NFC's that's higher than that. Right. They knew how much they were going to be aware of the exactly that. But, you know, now that the speculative nature behavior has come to this clear, you know, two-bar glory to spend, you know, like spend $100 on gas fees to mint a hot-horned hefty, right? I asked a bit of exaggeration, but, you know, I had a certain whole peppy, the whole peppy run. The avatose in NFC was about 20 bucks, really 30 bucks. Right. So, yeah, you know, so this is where L2 solutions come in. And so, I think there's a big distinction between L2s inside chains. So, most people in the global polygon, polygon isn't a true L2. Polygon is a separate network completely. Oh, wow. Right. So, and the true L2 actually feeds back into the L1 itself. So, in this case, the theory. So, optimism is an L2 built on top of the theory. What that means is that, when you just, when you drift to the action of the organs, all those, all those reactions get rolled up back into the minitarian. So, that means that everything on optimism is verifiable on the minit, which is the L1. You can do, have all the certain activity on L2, right? It's all verifiable on the blockchain itself. Opuism is interesting in particular because the big thing about autism is that they try to align their values as closely as possible to the theory of the hour. So, that means that, you know, when they think about, you know, how they roll out features, how they roll out of their scaling solutions, their creativity, it's all focused on alignment with the theory itself. And so, the code-based law author is actually only thinking, like, 15 lives of code different than the theory of itself. And so, very high on that, right? There's a lot of networks where, you know, they have their old sort of security models or scaling models, they'll still do it. So, often, some has, like, that alignment. And the other thing that Western people have realized is that when you purchase something on autism, you're using the exact same Ethereum as Ethereum all on. So, you've got to bridge it over in network, but there is no difference between, you know, optimism, ease, and, you know, L1, it's the same effect from this transfer, like, between the networks itself. Whereas, you know, if you think about, I don't know, like, polygon, for example, it's a direct following, right? The magic is the reason why and you have to bridge it over. And it's not, you know, it has sold right? It's sold, kind of, no, oh, exchange rates and so forth, right? But, when you buy something on, with, on optimism, or any L2 exchange, and in true L2, with, it's exactly the best that came from L1. So, not like creating new tokens that are that, it's, it's exactly. That's really interesting. So, is basically, if you buy one of the optimism NFTs, is it technically an ETH NFT, or is it an optimism NFT? Yeah. So, it's an optimism NFT itself, but the, the, all the code technologies to say, right? So, you have to select the, select the odd optimism. Okay. But, you know, if I were to buy an NFT off to you on optimism, you'd get ETH from that. That ETH is exactly, that can end according to their, like, the exact same price, you can ask everything. Like, optimism isn't creating newbies. They're moving over from L1 to, it's okay. But, it's just, I got, oh, okay. I got you. Really cool. I think the difference is that, what's your thing about Authors and Foken, right? Authors, tokens, it's just, I token, or Office of Innovation, but it's not the currency used to transact on me, or on Authors and it's all. That's crazy. It's a lot to, a lot to think about, learn. I want to check that out and learn, because I've definitely been hearing a lot more about it, and whenever you guys introduce something, it definitely sends off to antennas, like, so place to, place to look for sure. Jenny, I have questions for days. I have a couple more. If you need to come, y'all, go on it. You know, I can just call you off. You can, you can come up anytime you want. But I'm interested to hear what you think of Bitcoin ordinals, and if there's any future, you know, connection with manifold, what you think about them in general. Yeah, I'd say statistic, because they, you know, I used to, I'm, you know, well, I'm not, I wicked over myself at ASCOG. I'll be damned of Bitcoin OG. But you know, I still have money, because I started in 2012, and Bitcoin had already been around for like five years when I started. But yeah, so, you know, I can order those to be interesting. It's, I think the funny thing about it is, is that the Bitcoin community is a very stubborn community. And so, you know, they have this idea of what Bitcoin was, right? They don't want to upgrade the network, because, you know, one Bitcoin is always going to be one Bitcoin, but they all, or those don't want to come along. They cost a lot of those consolidating. And also, one Bitcoin is not only Bitcoin anymore. Like, you know, Satoshi, since drag is now has intro value, then just sort of Satoshi. And I think that it kind of shook the community up, and now there's a huge, I guess, like following up ordinals, it's actually funny, because like, what are the benefits of these communities right now? Are, are, are ordinals, are, are ordinals creators, right? And what they're doing is that they're creating at East NFTs, but then it's writing them on, on Bitcoin itself. And so there's definitely a huge movement right now that is still being, it's like, it's still growing. And so, you know, I think, I think the hard part is, is that the technology is just not there yet, per se. It's all, it's ugly. It's like, it's okay, we got this cool thing. We're going to take all of these, like, solutions together, and like, let's take them all together to get like the fun of solutions, which is, you know, what ordinals is, rather than being, hey, this is carnivorous, this is native to the protocol itself. We're going to support everything. This is going to be a flourishing ecosystem. And so, you know, I think with the technology itself, I think that there, there could be sort of a changing of how people think about, like, the quality in general, but, you know, at this point, we are overflowing with building some tools for it on manifold itself, but it's not going to be like the primary focus. We're not going to like, to directly be like, hey, we're just going to throw it else itself. But nice, you know, our focus is always made in, you know, Ethereum and WebSphere. So you guys are building some tools for Bitcoin? Well, yeah, well, it's a very simple tool. It's just as far as some of you guys are using math ultimately. They're, it's really enough to use that or be used to tribe. Okay. Love it. Love it. Another thing that you guys do on manifold that is really intriguing to me, and it's a tiny bit controversial. I think I don't know if you've heard the controversy, but I talked to some artists, and I didn't realize until I talked to them. Yeah. I love the idea that you could say, like, hey, here's my 101, but to get it, you need to burn, and you can pick any contract. You know, you can say, you need to burn a Bordebioc club, and I talked to some Martin. I think that that is so cool. Like, I would love to see like any of these, like, you know, like, calls or anybody like that. And to see who's the first one that decides to burn a punk or burn a Bordebioc club to get that 101. I think that is so interesting. But the artists side, those, they'll make say, like, they're worried that somebody might burn their art, that they didn't want it to happen, which I get it. I don't know if you've heard that at all. I get it, but I also like, burning is a weird word for what happens when we send them to the burn wild, right? Isn't like, because they're still there. You're not like the well, okay, not so. What do you got? What do you got? Well, so there's actually true types of burns, right? So I think what you're talking about is the bird that burn a lot, which is sending it NFT to oh, X zero zero zero zero zero, the EAD. But there's a second kind of burn, which is, you know, we kind of love it, the school of trooper. And so if a contract supports it, if you call the burn flexion on the contract, it actually leads the record of the token itself. So it's not one by death. It just it's owned by zero zero zero zero zero because it doesn't exist anymore, right? But, you know, I, I actually really like the bird feature. I like it. We'll try to burn out of people's works because, you know, I think what are the core aspects of NFTs in the idea of ownership? Is that when I voted NFC? I actually don't know what was it. So, you know, that, that, it's like the sovereignty of the, the asset itself, right? So when I purchase it, I should be able to get it. It's like when I purchase a cup or something, yeah, I can tour it away because I don't want to. So, you know, what, what gives me the right? Yeah, why would someone prevent me the right to be able to do that for something? I, I, you know, should truly equal hard to the old. And the second thing is, I just like chaos. You know, I think that chaos breeds interesting results and chaos breeds creativity. And by offering tools that are just kind of unaccounted, we've seen many artists create these really interesting campaigns. So just like, you know, just make you think about, you know, what is the technology? What does it mean? What does, what does it mean for something to be our, you know, is now performance piece or, you know, even what is the value of things? I love that. I didn't realize about that true burn. But you said that it has to be enabled in the smart contract for the beginning. So like, probably a lot of those major collections don't have it. Yeah. Well, it depends on where you got your contract from, right? So manifold is forced to trooper, but yeah, some, some contracts just went on through it. Right. So when you, when you actually birth, we have manifold, we actually detect whether you do have true bird function or not. And if you have the actual bird function, then we'll burn it for real. Otherwise, it'll say, that that was cool. Very nice. And another question. How about, how about AI? Where are you at with AI? I mean, guys, are you using it in your professional life? Are you playing with the art? Are you scared of it? Yeah. No, AI is definitely, I mean, that is hard my daily life. These are for writing and use it for creation and use it for coding, especially for coding. Sure. Yeah. It's, you know, to me, it's a fool, right? It's like with the internet, you belong or they use it or not. And if you did use internet, they left behind. So safe for kind of AI. What it's supposed to be is, you know, I think it's really interesting because, you know, crypto and AI kind of go ahead and hand. Because at one end, you have, you know, AI, which makes contact creation, like cheap, like, just like, you know, anybody just creates something out. But the problem now becomes like, what is authentic? What is real? And that's for crypto curves. And because that can be actually really signed, you know, your work and say, hey, this is actually from the Quran. I endorse this. This is actually carve of, you know, something that I created it. Where I think that many people are concerned using AI's war. And you know, in fact, a lot of if it's a mad phone can now become our dinner for me out because it makes it so accessible for anyone to use. And, you know, in general, I think just more creation is always a good thing. More creation needs to more, you know, creativity needs more innovation. And so, you know, it's just part of it. I think it's part of human progress. I'd rather live in a world where we're smoking very forward and very rapid case with lots of interesting type things happening and just be kind of standing or being afraid of this felony. Nice. No doubt. Okay. I got to, I got to see the last person here. Yeah. Let's go. Oh my. And first of all, what are some of your top tips for securing your NFTs? Because what are some of my favorite, like, cyber securities, reds are by you. And well, I always forget the number. It's six, five, two, nine, or something. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, what would be some of your top tips for securing your NFTs? Yeah. So, you know, I would say the very first thing, always use a hardware wallet. I do a little bit. I know ledger has been under some pain relief for, you know, not advertising still some features that everyone thought was true. But, you know, I still say using a ledger or using a hardware wallet, I think treasure is still the number one thing you can do at the very, at the very, very base. From which everyone who has been hacked, I know it has, or hacked or had the wallet compromised, was not using a hardware wallet, you know, so you just click the link and all of a sudden, you're like, you're, you could be compromised. So, you know, that's the number I think. The second thing is, you know, around time, sort of sheet phrase. So, you know, make sure you never sort of freeze sheet phrase on a digital device. I can't tell you how many artists, sheet phrase I've seen just through screen sharing. Yeah. You know, there's a lot to use me because I'm like, hey, I saw your sheet phrase, you gotta fix that, you know, and I work with them like several or a lot. But, you know, I saw the thing that has happened is that someone will be free sharing, they'll open their metamass, they're metamass slots, they'll open a file called like password.gxc and it is the metamass password and also their sheet phrase, right? And so, obviously, if you have a visual footprint of your sheet phrase, that is able to be copied or accessed in somebody, you know, the TV, someone could play a lot and you'd be like, hey, I have a sheet phrase and let it through a bunch of assets. And then 10 years from now, just like everything, and you know, no idea which has happened. So, you know, the proper way to store your sheet phrase is, first of all, write down a piece of paper, write it, and, you know, put it in a sheet phrase box at the member, right? The way I have my sheet phrase set up is there are mental plates, and these mental plates are distributed across two banks in sheet phrase boxes. And, you know, so pretty much, my worst case scenario for me is that, or the expert down and my hardware wall breaks all the ones. And I think that that happens. There's probably just one of the banks. It'd be a problem if it was just one of the banks. You don't need all of them. One of the banks burns down. So, I might have heard my sheet phrase is distributed. And so, I don't need all four pieces. I don't need all the breaks. I just need to go to the bank through the four. Gotcha. But yeah, so, like I said, I got bigger problems or I think a lot bigger problems or the expert down and my hardware wall breaks. So, that's like, you know, kind of sorry, no digital footprints. Yeah. And then, you know, never type a sheet phrase, right? Your sheet phrase should never be ever be typed into it myself. No, I think it should be going into it as the actual hard walls. Awesome. Thank you for that. Yeah, I remember you, you talking about that on a spaces once about how you have them in these like, these banks, safety deposit boxes, like around the around the world or whatever. And I was like, why? Like, I was like mind blown. No, I love that. Yeah. So, yeah, the thing is, it's like, your sheet phrase should actually be really hard to recover, right? So, if I actually wanted to recover, it's actually, I actually have to plan a whole day to go recover my sheet phrase. So, if it's hard for me to recover, that means it's just as hard for somebody. It should be hard for someone else to recover. Yeah. And people, that's actually a really good reminder, like a lot of people when they first started didn't know what they're doing and they did type their seed phrase into a message and send it to themself or a word file. And they might have deleted that a long time ago and forgot about it. But there's still a slim possibility that that is traceable hackable. If you did do something like that in the past, maybe think about setting up a brand new out, sending your stuff there. It does cost money to do that. You do it in the middle of the night when gas is lower or whatever. But if you want to be ultra safe, that's definitely something we've seen a lot of hacks again recently. It's been coming back. Yeah. That's a lot. How much assets are stored on your right? Exactly. You have a $10 million. You have a $10 million funk. I'm gonna keep that big. Exactly. Okay, my last question is actually kind of a little random. But I'm curious, what's with the Richard interns? Because you have basically kind of this almost like this loyal fan base of people that have declared themselves Richard interns. They got the glasses. They got like the freaking suits. I saw music videos they were making. Like I met them at an event. I think it was NFC NYC, like not this last one, but the one before that. And they like had like Richard intern coffee or something like they were going hard. And I'm just I'm curious on your thoughts on the Richard interns. Oh, and that's on the yet. Okay. So I just like one day, you know, I just like a busy person in general. And the Richard intern popped up a little bit because like here's a coffee. I was like, oh, that's cool. This is sort of interacting with this persona. But eventually every single day started delivering, you know, a coffee at Twitter. And then all of a sudden, you know, Richard intern showed up and Richard, you know, oh, showed up and Richard, your diocesan cigarette. There was a whole like group of these prasadas or a single anonymous profile. It's just like popping up just under the Richard brain. I would say it's not a funny right? So I didn't know if they were for about a whole year, but they were still kind of just interacting on Twitter in some sort of consumption. Yeah. So I actually met them. They actually docked themselves to me. I guess like last last MSC, MSC, I met them a person. And yeah, there's like these guys from, where's it? Iceland. Oh, I forgot the name. But what's similar in the each year? You see rough. Yeah, it's this guy who was looking Twitter early. He had said your first project. I just want to look all of someone and he chose me. And then he just ran with it. And, you know, they were much creatives. Soographers, developers. And it's kind of a side project. And they started doing these projects. You know, I think Richard had their coffee. They traded the illegal helmet and making videos. And they just had a lot of fun with it. And then they, you know, they even sold some of these under his cutter brand. And yeah, so I actually met them a person. We had a great time meeting. And we've been friends ever since. You know, they recently kind of towed down the Richard nature project. You know, so I guess it's certainly the last bear run type of things to him last while. But yeah, there was like, yeah, there's just a great group and we were just trying to have fun. That's awesome. Yeah, I had never seen anything like that. So I was just like, this is super cool. But yeah, I called it here, you know, with the back story on it. Michael, do you have any last minute questions before we go into our gas wars? No, let's have the only thing I guess where you're ready for. It's our segment. Gas wars. I like to ask if our guests have any artists or projects they want to shout out that they think need some light. If you have any favorite artists, you think she'd be more popular or anything like that. Feel free to give them some light. Oh, that's it. It's a good one. Sorry. Yeah. I have. Okay. So we recently lost something. So this is more of an author than right now. That's what we received a lot of something. I was called, what do you need? Cobbers and Quagbys. So the idea is called the CoinbaseQuest. And that is like what he said, he's from his artists then Coinbase will reward you with some okay token. And so I know, I think I'll just start with these artists here. So I met actually artists are artists from Thailand. They're very talented. So you heard the answer. Yeah. So first we got to where he's actually towards when you're finished. Yeah. We have a blue dot you know each else in Thailand workout also from Thailand. And I can any my cavity also you'll like and check her. Yep. I think I know Annie. I'm trying to remember. And ride offer. Cool. Nice. We got a link. Awesome. Now we'll check that out. We'll check those artists out. Appreciate that. I did have one other quick thing I need to mention. I'm sorry, Jen. Then we'll do gas. Riches worried about what gas wars is now. He's like, that's worse. What's that? So I said, so much more than gas. I don't need more gas. As I got off, please. So when we were talking earlier about the interesting use cases on manifold, I just got to shout out my buddy market. He's the one that did checkade. He said you were really, really helpful. You literally said like you helped them because it like wasn't working at first. And you guys specially helped him out. He did really well. He's still like, he's got that frogger game now. Oh, pep in and you have that NFT to play is really good. But he's doing some really cool stuff. And that was that was pretty innovative on there. And he said you were like you particularly like one on one. He DMed you and you were like right there helping them. So that's really cool. Good customer service there. That customer service. Yeah, I've heard that. We thought it was really cool. It's like one of the very first HTML mids. I was actually in Iraq and so that's exactly right. Yeah, man. Yeah, he's crushing. He's doing really well. So good stuff. Let's get into gas wars. Jenning. All right. Gas for the eats and type of like, oh, welcome to gas wars. Our segment where we ask five rapid fire questions each. And you answer them as fast as possible. So yeah, that was basically the gist of it. So I will start with a very easy first question. What is your astrology sign? Not good to have a knife. Gemini. All right. Favorite movie? It was cool. I know it's one way. How am I playing me on it? Gatica. Why is it? Oh, Gatica. Oh, Gatica. Yeah. That's a classic, isn't it? I don't know. I'm not even familiar. Andy's probably like these people are our land. He's a big movie. And he's like, oh, I love that movie. We're like, yeah, I want to watch it. I watch it every year. Any year every year. Well, yeah, check that out. What was the first job you ever had? First job. I will get a video game store in your game. Okay. Nice. For me to get a game would be a retro store. Oh, like blockbuster. You know, yeah, it was like blockbuster, but not like it's just a, you know, one pops out sort of version of that, the solid. I remember the mom and pop chefs, the mom and pop video stories. Jenny doesn't remember this. I remember Bob Fusser, Hollywood, video or whatever. Yeah. How do you like deep features? You have to like write them. Yeah, rewind them. Exactly. Exactly. Never rewind them. I see. I do remember that. Be kind. Please rewind. What is the most underrated NFT project or collection? It can't be the one on your shirt. At 1.62 East, by the way, right now. What? 62 East, but 1.62. Well, Michael's check. Man, I'm looking to buy it. I'm looking to buy it, dude. You have a D as a doodles on his shirt right now. So I said, all right. Yeah, I got a bunch of doodles. That was a long way. I got a bunch of them. So what is the right spot? Yeah, underrated. That can be good. All right. Wow. Wow. I'm not to start. I have not decided on that. Can you go? Oh, that's, that's great. Oh, yeah. I was like, oh, he's trying to spy off it. We don't talk about that. We're on here. That is, you know, the brothers, you know, I low lapses. Do you know they are? You don't have to say obviously, we're going to be good. We don't talk about that. Advert. You know, you know, they are. You don't talk about that. I cannot hear from Norton. I can hear from you. You don't talk about your knives. Yeah, that's all of the exact reasons. That's a tidbit that people can run with. And we could try it. I mean, they've been running with it ever since. So they have it. All right. What's your dream country to visit? Well, sure, I've been to, I've been to most, I've been around a lot. I've been visit. Oh, North Korea. Okay. Why North Korea? Beautiful. I think it is. I think North Korea is a very special place in the world. I don't think it's going to last very long general, right? But it's just like preserved culture. Like it's got a very interesting preserved culture. That's like untouched by the rest of the world just because of how it's kind of operated. You know, I don't agree with a whole hour or two or operates, but I think it just, you have very interesting credits to, like, you sure it's. It would be interesting. Funny enough, my next question was favorite travel destination. So let's say, where's the favorite place you have been? Very rare. Very rare. Let's go. And that's it. Nevada. Yeah. Well, yeah. So it's all a Black Friday city. Wow. I'm about to. Yeah. Awesome. I don't even know what number are we on, Michael? Four. Okay. That's why we have to hear. All right. So I'm doing number five right now. Am I doing? You're doing number four. You're doing number four. Oh, number four. Okay. Pass or dogs? Dogs. Okay. Sorry. If you could spend a day in someone else's shoes, who would it be? Or a bee? Making them think I got to come up with better ones. They should be quicker. I thought Chad GPT came up with your questions. They came up with a bunch of them starting to reuse a little bit. I want it. I'm going to, I'm going to hone in. I want them to be quicker. Someone else to choose. Who's who are some of those shoes? Those fuosious Dita's that are coming up this week. I got pushed back. I got pushed back. Did it? Yeah. I was away for a week. I didn't see all that. Oh, you missed them. Start Michael. Really? Yeah. This one's fast. All right. My shoes. I know. I don't know. I don't know where goes the white right out. Okay. Fair enough. Fair enough. Let's get next question. I'll never I'll never ask that again. I'm bored. Yeah. I'm bored. Why is a book that changed your life? This is my last question. Oh, it changed my life. It's a good book. Yeah. I changed my life, but a book I have a lot of affinity towards is I'm, you know, it's never been told me about, but the alchemist. That's a classic. It's actually really funny because I actually read that. What if the birdie man? Yeah. So it was like, you know, for me, it was like a turning point in my life at that point. And that book kind of was just like, was the catalyst for the next shaper. Cool. I'm like, oh, you're last question. Finally, what is your favorite thing to cook? Everything to cook. Oh, man. I like roast, I like roast vegetables. I like it's sort of like fresh vegetables, salt on it, olive oil, roasting it. Yes. Right now I've been nice and hot. I love it. Yeah. Let's go. That's beautiful. Caramelized onions. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So asparagus, maybe it did. Okay. Cool. Well, thank you, Richard. So much for joining us on the show. This was so amazing. I'm so happy that you're, you know, you're finally able to come on and yeah, we really appreciate you. Yeah. I love it. All right. Michael, you want to say anything? No, I'm good. All right. Thank you, Richard. Thank you, Richard. That's us. But that said, thank you all for tuning in to this episode of the NFT catcher podcast. And we will catch you in the next one. Peace. Thank you for tuning in to the NFT catcher podcast. We hope you enjoyed today's episode and learned something new about the exciting world of NFTs. If you enjoyed today's episode, please take a moment to subscribe to our podcast on Apple Spotify for wherever you listen to your podcasts. And if you really love what you're hearing, please leave us a rating and review when you're paid a bottle. If you want to stay up to date with the latest news and insights from the NFT space, be sure to follow us on all the socials at NFT catcher pop. You can follow Jennifer at Jennifer underscore studio and Michael at NF ticket. I'm your producer Andy and I'm at AJC 254. Our theme songs by It's Just Loose. We always appreciate your feedback and support, which helps us reach more people and bring you informative and engaging content about NFTs. We look forward to bringing you more great NFT content in future episodes. Thanks for listening. Peace.