Are you looking to engage your donors more effectively and create deeper relationships with
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Hello and welcome to non-profit nation. I'm your host Julia Campbell and I'm going to sit down
with non-profit industry experts, fundraisers, marketers and everyone in between to get real
and discuss what it takes to build that movement that you've been dreaming of. I created the
non-profit nation podcast to share practical wisdom and strategies to help you confidently find
your voice, definitively grow your audience and effectively build your movement. If you're a
non-profit newbie or an experienced professional who's looking to get more visibility, reach more
people and create even more impact than you're in the right place. Let's get started.
Hi everyone welcome back to non-profit nation. So excited to have you here today in your earbuds
wherever you are, whatever you're doing. I'm your host Julia Campbell and today's question is
are you ready for Google Analytics 4? And what is the hype versus the reality with artificial
intelligence? We have quite a few topics today, quite a few things to cover and my friend George
Winner is here and George is the founder and CEO of Whole Whale. A lot of you are probably familiar
with Whole Whale, a digital agency that leverages data and tech to increase the impact of non-profits
and for benefit companies. And in nearly a decade of operations, Whole Whale has worked with over
100 non-profit and social impact organizations, spent over $6 million in Google ad grant dollars
and supported an additional 150,000 plus organizations through free online content and trainings.
And George in all of his free time and I know his children too is the co-founder of Power Poetry,
the largest teen poetry platform in the US, a safe creative free home to over 500,000 poets.
That's amazing. So George, welcome to the podcast. Hey, thanks for having me. Long time listen
or first time caller. I know and we were saying it's been a really long time since we have spoken
and talked and hung out and certainly a long time since we met in person. But I know I've been
following the trajectory of Whole Whale and just really excited to dive into this conversation.
So I guess to start, let's talk about sort of how you got into non-profit work and some of the
things that are really exciting you about non-profits and tech right now. I got started with do
something.org. I spent seven years there. I became the chief technology officer and learned a
tremendous amount of how you could leverage data in tech to scale impact, frankly. And then in 2020,
founded Whole Whale and kind of went from there and built it, you know, inch by inch mistake by
mistake and lesson by lesson, developing how we look at analytics, digital advertising,
AB testing, SEO content marketing. And then layering in different types of products and
experimentation with our university courses to train other people on how to do what we do. We have
things like the inclusivity tool which will check a site for non-inclusive language from a database
of over 1,000 different words and terms. And more recently rolling out things like
causewriter.ai which, you know, build custom built GPT based tools for specific use cases
for social impact teams and non-profits. So, you know, I got my start saying like, wow,
we can do a lot of good with this tool. We can do a lot of good with this tech. Let's get beyond
just, hey, the internet's for donate buttons for non-profits and say we can use this lever
to change things. Tell me about the inclusivity tool. How was it created? Who should be using it?
It was created. Actually, I have to give full credit to someone named Mariel on our team who
brought this topic up and had been keeping us updated internally with a list of DEI terms and
language, which was so rapidly changing. It felt to me that I, you know, I'll just be honest,
my brain doesn't work that way. And I was having a hard time staying updated on that. But also,
I deeply cared about inclusive communications. And so the way we approached it was, you know,
let's begin a database of this from the many different sources, thought leaders, and just put it to
explaining in terms of searching a page. So you can do it for free, inclusivitytool.com,
check any page of your site, or even we made PDF. So like you've got that like giant PDF,
you want to send out and it'll search for potentially non-inclusive words. Context is key,
right? This is not a binary judgment on your language. And it may flag things like grandfathered
in because it has historically racist roots in many of our language in terms. There's actually
a lot more going on. And it's not a judgment so much as you should be aware that these words
may betray the purpose of your communication. Exactly. I love that. I think that when nonprofits
are thinking of tech and data and AI, especially, they tend to go to the dark side and not think
about the real implications to create good and to make our communications and fundraising
better and more inclusive. So I love this tool. I think that it's just I'm going to put it in the
show notes. I just think that these kind of tools, like you just said, it's not meant as a judgment,
it's just meant as a tool in your toolbox. It's meant to be something that could potentially help
you if you want. You know, it's not going to be forced on you. And it's something that could really
illuminate and shed light on some problematic things that are maybe happening in your communications.
Yeah. I mean, the question to anyone using it is like, do you find mirrors offensive?
Do you find mirrors have a point of view? Do you find like, I find mirrors. I'm just kidding.
Sometimes depending. But it is it is a meant to be in that use case. However, it's tough. We're
talking about sensitive language on sensitive topics ranging from mental health to social justice.
You have opinions. I have opinions. Hopefully this just gives you an objective look. It's a hard
problem. And we were just hoping to throw a free tool into the ecosystem. And it's one of the,
you know, great things about getting to play with social impact tech at a digital agency.
So I was playing around like everyone else in the world with chat GPT today. And what I found
was that it's really helpful to use these tools from a blank page. So tell me about causewriter.ai.
Is that sort of what it's designed to do? Give you prompts. Create outlines. Do research. Like,
what are some of the what are some of the use cases? Thanks for the cause writer AI plug. I want
I want to be really fair. Like you don't need that tool. That tool is a pocket for now.
Objectively for chat GPT, you know, as we're talking now, I know maybe different than later,
because of the rapid pace of change, I think everyone should be experimenting with chat GPT,
which you can find at chat.openai.com. And they are rolling out more and more features as you go
along. And what's more, these tools via the API are being built into all manner of end points.
Fancy word for saying, look, you're on your word processing. You're on your email. You're on
your asana, your notion, your canva. These things are going to just be layered in in the background.
And at a very high level, what I want to put back people's minds is that if you are
passively using these things and letting them happen to you, you are the product we've been
to this show before. It was called thefacebook.com. And you should just be careful when you were the
product. So I would encourage you, certainly, you know, acknowledge that you are never starting
with a blank slate. Just to be clear, there has been mountains of information and bias already
pushed into whatever seems like a, oh, look a blank sheet of paper. That's not the case.
And I think you nailed it by saying, what is the prompt in this idea of prompt architecture?
So a lot of threads to pull, but just trying to set the stage, I guess.
I love your view that all of this is a tool. And it's really how you wield it. You know,
like you can use a hammer to build a house or, you know, use a hammer just to simply hammer
nail into a birdhouse. So it's how you wield the tool and like your intention behind
using it is incredibly important, especially for your success in using the tool.
For sure. And, you know, for a cause writer, what we're seeing is that once you get past that
initial stage of, isn't it cool that I can have this write a summary of this article or create,
you know, some generic email messaging for me, you begin to realize that your things are
going to look like everybody else's things, because this is essentially a large language model,
random number generator that will come up with the average of the human language, until you
feed it, more information, context, about your organization and your purpose. And so when it comes
to building these purpose, built endpoints, so you need chats that know your organization, know
your voice and know what you're about to do with that context, then you start getting unique outputs
that can help with efficiency. And that's what we're focused on, like really like sitting with
a nonprofit being like, what you're writing here? Where's your data? Let's use your data intentionally,
rather than the fact that frankly, it's already been ingested by this gigantic model. And it has
been mushed and mashed with everything else. Let's put our thumb on the scale where we need to
to make sure that those outputs help you. We've also been playing with AutoGPT, and by the time
you're listening to this, this is probably old news, but it's incredibly powerful because it can
do Google searches, it can push and pull from API requests, and it can essentially act like an
assistant. You give it a goal, and it will run through the steps to achieve that goal without
needing you to say, go do this now, go do this now. So I, for instance, wrote an article about
statistics for nonprofits from 2018 to 2022. I gave it a prompt saying, hey, I want this information.
I want you to search Google for it. I want you to summarize the results. And then I want you to
organize it by year in an article post for our nonprofit newsfeed. And it then went about that task,
criticizing, analyzing, creating a plan, searching Google, storing that in short term memory,
summarizing that, then creating a cited source, because this is one of the critiques, and it should
be, that with chat GPT, right, chat.openai.com, what it is doing is sometimes BS-ing its way,
making it a list. It's very confident, but it's right. It's a computer, right? It's a computer.
It has to be right. You know, that is a genuine retreat, and you should be very careful,
and one of the policies that we really make sure all of our clients follow, and internally,
like it is a first draft. I get very uneasy when it is released as gospel or direct endpoint
with a constitu- I mean, a constituent without without that caveat, but with tools like auto GPT
and plugins, these are getting smarter, and I'm going to be pulled in, and it is a definite
opportunity. I love seeing it as an opportunity and not necessarily as a threat. There's two prongs,
to this people that are thinking it's going to be like, how in 2001 a space Odyssey,
or it's going to be like Megan, you know, the doll, the virtual doll from the movie,
or it's going to be the Savior, BL, and doll, and none of us will have to write blogs anymore,
but I think there's this happy medium, hopefully towards the end of the better spectrum, the more
positive spectrum. But talking about tools, I wanted to have you on to pick your brain about
Google Analytics 4, because I know there are there's so many myths and misconceptions, people don't
know what it is. Speaking of a tool that is incredibly helpful, but raises a lot of anxiety,
like what is Google Analytics 4, and why do nonprofits need to care about it? Like, why do we need
to know about it? It's shocking how big a change this is and how little I see about it,
and I feel like there is a massive train barreling down the tracks on all web data. The number one
used web analytics platform is Google Analytics, specifically universal analytics. It has been around
for, call it, 13 years in various iterations. As of July 1st, 2023, that will stop, halt, no more
data, closed for business, no shirt, no shoes, no service, nothing done, gone. As many ways as I can
make this point, what's more, your data is then essentially in an ice box for any historical
information you had with universal analytics. That ice box will be thrown away into a dumpster,
never to be seen again at the end of 2023. If you do longitudinal reporting, if you do reporting
on past year over year, and you do nothing, you can see what will happen. So I'm trying to raise
a little bit of alarm about it, because it just makes me sad that someone is going to be sitting
there December 17th of 2023 and be like, wait a minute, where are numbers go? And frankly,
you're sitting there in July 2nd, being like, where are numbers? Now, what is happening is GA4
is taking its place. We can get into the rhyme and reason, but big picture, data privacy,
and a switch to event-based versus cookie-based type of tracking is the headline. GA4, in my
opinion, is not ready for prime time with regard to the visualization of data. It's storing it just
fine, but I think it is bad mediocre on a good day, maybe, for visualization of the information,
and it's going to take some time to understand every single metric that you know and new from
Universal Analytics is different, and it's just a matter of how different it is. So there's a huge
learning curve. Most organizations, I feel like, may have this installed out of the box level,
which is pretty decent, I think, all things considered. So you'll have some information.
In a worst case, you're going to lose your web data until you go back in and say, oh my gosh,
we need to install GA4. Now, they may have some automatic migrations that happen or auto setups,
but there's still buttons you need to press in order to have this in place. So like, I'm trying
to have as many of these conversations as possible. We're racing to do this with many, many clients,
because then there's smart configurations that you have and probably need for tracking, but,
you know, it's a headache, but it's an opportunity to redo your data and analytics tracking, I guess.
So this is for people that are just not knowing even what Google Analytics are.
I would hope that people would know, at least if you're a marketer or fundraiser,
but this is for web data. So, clicks to your website, referrals to your website, conversions,
goals, anything that you've set up to track website traffic. Is that correct? Correct. Thank you.
And how will this affect Google ad grants? Is it going to affect people that have Google ad grants?
Right now, I think you're fine as long as you have the tracking and conversion set inside
of your ad grant. However, if you really care about the performance of on-page and what not
and what's going on, once that traffic hits your site, you're probably going to want those
analytics back. But as of right now, I think it is still technically possible, but you have to check
because they change these rules every month of whether or not it's required or not.
And what do nonprofits need to do? What's the first step? If they realize, oh man,
I'm using universal analytics, I really want my web data. What's sort of the first step that they
need to do before, ideally before July 1st, but say it's after July 1st when they're listening
to it to this? What do they need to do? Make sure you have GA4 set. Do you know how many people
came to your site yesterday? If you can answer that question and it's after July,
you have GA4 set up. Okay. The next question is, do you have transparency into the goals,
such as did somebody donate? Did we get an email? Did someone spend a meaningful amount of time
on a meaningful page tracked as a conversion so that we can tell we are doing good things on the
internet? And then as you go through, one of the things you can say is like, as you prepare these
reports, do I understand what an engaged session actually is? Why are my maybe users different on
this versus when they were for universal analytics? We've put together a lot of these FAQs and a
lot of free resources on wholeweil.com slash analytics that just sort of walk you through a lot of
the nuances and headaches for this. The next big thing that you'll want after you have GA4
and your conversions tracked is to take a look at your historical information. Your universal
analytics, which as I mentioned, are in an icebox that is going to be thrown into a dumpster
at the end of the year. This is like a crawl walk run type of way of saving those data.
Depending on the level of here's what you need to know. What is the level of specificity that
your stakeholders ask about historical information? And the more specific that people expect
that data reporting to be the higher you have to go on preservation of data. On the low end,
just run through and export a bunch of PDF snapshots of year over year data and you get a general idea.
And we have a article on this of saying like, here's like the different levels. So that's on one
side. Just export a bunch of PDFs. You'll be fine. You can find the broad idea of tracks and trends.
And on the most extreme, you are exporting all of your historical data into big query and then
layering on top of that a look or studio so that you could visualize and analyze every single question
of like, oh, what about that campaign in 2021 where we did it between September to mid-November?
I want to know the data on that. If that's the level that your team and stakeholders expect,
like you have to be doing the Cadillac option, which at this point seems to be the
big query connect to looker or whatever you choose your visualization dashboard.
So Colwell created a fabulous series of dashboards for universal analytics.
I don't know if those are still available. Did you create those for GA4 or is that a little bit more?
We have. We have a great sports out there in the world. We're still modifying them
because we're still watching and seeing. But there is a I love those dashboards because I wouldn't
even know like you go to universal analytics. You go to Google Analytics and it's so overwhelming
and there's so many data points. So what I loved about the carefully like curated dashboards that
you created, you picked some data points based on what someone's goals were or maybe what their
job title was, which I thought was really helpful. Yeah. I mean that had been down. I was like one
of the number one searches for like nonprofit dashboards for for Google Analytics and I'm glad
so many people found it useful. We've created that for GA4. However, the asterisk is that Google has put
a daily and hourly quota on queries to GA4 data. It says though the company wants to make
money and so it actually kind of we've built it but it will break and you'll be like why is this
breaking? Why is it this quota limit here? And again, that's one of those articles that we have
of like how to kind of get around it and solutions. But in terms of like the massive robust
looker dashboards, which is the new version of data studio, we built that previously in data
studio. I'm using the word looker, but it is essentially the same product. The problem is
dashboards just built on top of raw GA4 might break if you put too many widgets. It just means
like ask it too many things at one time, which is frustrating. And that happened in November of
2022. It was like surprise. We're just putting this in place. Maybe it's different now. Maybe not.
So yes, I love those dashboards, but here's the truth. Just be careful if you are relying on them
with the at the level that you did our last one. As a digital marketer, I had just have so many
questions. What do you see as the implications for the cookie list future? And can you talk about
what the cookie list future is for people that might not know? And digital marketers should know,
but a lot of people might not know. And then what are the implications for us?
The cookie list future. I mean, the future is now.
Futures now is cookie list present. It's a vestage of an old web design and I think it's a good thing.
The fact that your internet browsing history followed you around the internet and allowed ads
tracking. And then every time you came to a site, they could like look at everywhere you had been
and then like do weird things with your data without your knowledge. It strikes us now as archaic.
So we're moving out of this golden age of, you know, mining people's unsuspecting web data.
So that's good, right? Like to win for data privacy.
Yeah, win for data privacy and win for smart architecture because it's just dumb.
Now there are still short-term long-term cookies set by your analytics tracking,
but it is looking at just at your own sort of relevant history. But we are moving toward event
based behavior based interactions. Did you or did you not do this thing? And is this thing
maybe indicative of somebody interested in donating or interested in this cause or type
based on behavior? So it's behavior first rather than demographic assumption first type of
pieces. So there is opportunity there in terms of event tracking specificity out of the box.
It does pretty well. It is tracking a lot of things like, you know, PDF downloads and visits views
of videos. And there are a lot of like indicators that you can get inside of GA4. Beyond that,
your cook-a-list world also gives you maybe a false sense, for example, a false sense of
open rates and emails like, oh, my open rates are doing so well. Like careful.
Don't tell me that. Just my open rates are great right now.
Awesome. It's clearly my doing and not the data privacy and cook-a-list future, I know.
Yeah, we're joking about the fact that all Apple devices will auto-open absolutely everything
because the cookies are not tracked the same way they used to with regard to this.
Oh my gosh. That's our sort of joke about what's going on in the future. Do you think that's
going to happen? It's already happening. It's happening. Okay.
If I were to cut your data and show you Android devices versus iOS devices, you'd be like,
people on iOS love opening our emails. We're the best. So I think it's important to know
when your data are lying to you just to take an honest look at it. And I think there's a new
definition because cookies actually give us, you know, creepy levels of understanding of user
behavior. And we just have to understand how those things have been redefined and where the
skeletons are hidden, I think. When your data is lying to you, I love that because what's so
interesting about this conversation is all of this operates in an ecosystem. It's not just like
chat GPT, Google Analytics 4, open rates, data privacy, cookies. These are all things that are
in the landscape that marketers and funders really need to understand or at least have on their
radar to try to understand what I kind of like about something that you said is event based.
And I think that also has implications for email. So an email open rate is great. It just
probably means you had a great subject line or maybe someone opened it by accident. But someone
clicking on an email is totally different. And is that what you're talking about when you're
talking about event based data where someone actually does something? It's not just like someone
came to your website. I'm maybe loading that term inappropriately. So let me separate it out.
Event based tracking is the fundamental way that GA4 now tracks everything. There's some event
that is triggered. Maybe it is a session start. It is some behavior on the site that triggers an
event. And there are like five out of the box events that are automatically tracked. And then on
top of that are layered the type of metrics that we are all used to of users average time and
all of that. But that is all built on a layer of events. And there's some cookie information that
is layered in. But it can run with just events. So when I use like event first event based
as GA4. Now event let's park that there behavior. Show me the behavior now open rate. I don't fully
trust anymore click through rate right that human click that thing. There's no faking that like
right you had to open you had to click a thing. So I'm paying a lot more attention to those clicks.
Hopefully that makes sense. No that absolutely makes sense. I think we're moving beyond even on
social media. Hopefully moving beyond just reach visibility and moving towards engagement
and actual clicks. Because that's what is going to drive action at the end of the day. Not just
simple views or simple reach. So my other question is and you might forgive me for this might be
a very ignorant tech question. So will GA4 affect SEO and getting found in search?
You know I think in the same way that a stethoscope doesn't change your heartbeat.
You're just listening. You're listening to your web traffic. That said if you if you don't
measure it it won't get better. And that's a big part of SEO understanding your data. So
don't expect to get better if you limit the ways that you're measuring your SEO. But there's
no tie to it technically speaking in a oh Google will penalize you sort of way. You know to round
it back to where we started with chat GPT. I'm paying very close attention to the implications
of chat first search. If you don't understand what I'm saying like go on to being and use
their chat first search or use a tool called perplexity.ai perplexity.ai perplexity.ai search.
And you're going to get a window into how we're going to move from a link list first search
experience to a chat first answer. That is going to consume a large amount of information based
searches. Let me put it another way. If you're relying on things like 10 facts about this topic or
what is the history of homelessness or something that is information based. I'm pretty sure your
traffic has a short shelf life because it is information based. So one activity would be use
perplexity.ai mimics searches that currently drive volumes of traffic to your site and you're
going to get a window into what's going to happen. You will be a footnote in the answer of a GPT
search which will limit the amount of clicks not eliminate but limit. But for transactional searches
you know people are still going to you you can't donate through chat GPT right someone will still
find you still donate but there is a lot to unpack in that other category and it is one of the things
we are racing to shore up for our clients and how do you prepare for this coming we've already had
this show it was called remember multiple first like you and I went through this. Got to be
mobile first and we're like oh no one will ever search for stuff on phones it's so tiny remember
those phones are so tiny who's ever going to search and donate on a phone right and we just
watched as mobile traffic was 10 about 5 10% 15% of the market 30 40 50 over half and you're like
oh my gosh you know that happened over a decade yep I think this is going to happen over one maybe
two years so how can we prepare I mean I feel like if you are well this is my question actually
I work with historical societies museums and places that actually do have a brick and mortar
place so if you are a place like that how would chat search affect someone's ability to find you
and get directions I'm just interested I'm going to go to perplexity AI immediately after this
and start just searching for my clients but I wonder what are the implications for
for organizations that have traditionally done well in link based search short answer it depends
I'm trying to give you buckets okay if you are information based like you are sort of like
oh we're kind of like the Wikipedia for this topic yes that is high risk if you are sort of
transaction like somebody needs to transact with your organization I want a family friendly thing
to do on a Saturday in in Nassau you're fine actually you'll come up and the humans still needs
to go there they need directions now you may not get as much visibility into that and you should
be paying probably more attention to upstream metrics that you would find on search console
those types of pieces that show your digital footprint as it relates and so you're going to go
upstream in your data to see what that that impression looks like but I'm less concerned for like
the museums out there however there is certain types of content that I would be rapidly creating
to capture a different type of search behavior okay what kind of content now you're going to tell
give me no give me an example like I'm more than like I'm thinking okay so I have a client that is
an advocacy based organization in Texas and they are fully advocacy and the information based
and they have a newsletter around current legislation and what it means and how to get involved
and where to call and what to do so what kind of content could they create because I feel like
there in that bucket that's at risk so let's type ethetically this is coming from me because I know
we care about it and let's just say it's for marijuana we care about marijuana reform in our state
and we have a bunch of information about this you're in a danger zone for the types of probably
inbound search queries that you have that said I would double down on your state specific
information and opinions actually and then I would try to come up with types of content that
place you among peers as to the top organizations that deal with marijuana based reform innovative
ways of dealing with that and getting that that type of opinion you're in a weird period though
right now where there's a huge opportunity to leverage DPT tools to generate that type of
informational content before the sort of door shuts on traditional link based which is a fancy way
of saying I would be using GPT on every article like I possibly could to build a massive
moat in every way shape or form around the types of content library that gives historical context to
the topic of marijuana history advocacy stats facts related resources adjacent related themes
as much as possible because you're going to be able to build that footprint reputation because
what you're going to need is to be at least in the top four results to be referenced by chat bots
that scan and summarize what's going on and so if you want to be referenced you have to race right
now with these new tools to generate this with the knowledge the sad knowledge that that traffic
may go up for a short term and then drop off a cliff but will help you then in this new game of
who is an authority on this topic you have to become a referenced authority on the topic
and you know there's a lot of work and a lot of nuance there and then you know just a park
on the side there's a reason I'll say whole whale is working very very hard on youtubeifying a lot
of our content we were talking about this earlier I love that is that for search searching it's
the number two search engine on the internet right now but yeah things are about to be thrown up but
I would I would park that in the back of your mind as well what can you youtubeify and create
not even necessarily video content we were talking about podcast content audio content maybe to
start but I think this is incredibly important so I've always talked about the importance of
becoming that go to indispensable resource in your field and becoming a thought leader and
if you live in a tiny town that's going to be a little bit easier than yes if you're a national
organization but if you're a national organization you should be aiming to be the national thought
I just always think you should be aiming to be that go to resource that people cite that has a
unique perspective that has valuable you know irreplaceable input so what you're saying it's almost
like doubling down on that kind of content and I think circling back to the generative AI
large language models like chat GPT people are saying oh how can we compete and how can I you know
and I say you know just be unique that's how you can compete put your fingerprints on everything
make it yours you know make it look like it was not written by a bot like don't make it mediocre
because things that are mediocre and forgettable they're going to go by the wayside like are you
seeing that too absolutely we weren't against this we kind of joke we call it the the gray jacket
it's just like a funny framing that I was at this fundraising conference speaking at a panel and
I was next to somebody who was also named George and we wore the same gray jacket and I was like
this is ridiculous and I was like embarrassed but like I was like oh my gosh this is exactly what
happens when individuals run on to chat GPT with that blank slate and type in some generic write
me a blog post about why the environment matters and it looks unique to them but in effect everyone
is putting on that gray jacket and when you show up in public I think I intend I our human pattern
recognition for stock photography is through the roof like I could show you stock photography be like
yep stock stock stock stock stock not exactly that pattern recognition for GPT generated content
as these words leave my mouth what does that mean that means if you are not intentionally using
these tools and you are passively using them you're just letting it fill in the next sentence for you
it is going to be wildly detectable not unique and that is the gray jacket problem
that's so I love that analogy so much I was just using chat GPT to try to generate
descriptions of certain talks that I give every single one was so boring and so the same
it was like unleash the power and potential of this and like the same five words kept coming up
and I thought this could be valuable but I was like next time I look at a you know brochure
a speaking brochure or a speaking conference and look at the descriptions I'm going to know which
ones are written by AI and it's without any tweaking like obviously you know you can tweak them
but I love the gray jacket problem I think that's fantastic there's a parallel and you have tremendous
expertise in this because you live this with the social media handed to the intern strategy
yes this is that I love that this is exactly that handed to the intern who has is young or maybe
social media savvy or maybe both or the volunteer that says oh I can run your LinkedIn but they
don't have that unique brand voice or perspective or understanding and they don't have the stories
and they don't they're not you know working on the ground in the trenches on the problem
and we love our volunteers we love our interns but like you were saying it's that philosophy of let's
just completely 100% hand it off and not give them any support and not give them any ideas and
just hope that they perform a miracle and you're almost sending them up to fail as well
and you're sending yourself up to fail so it's like a double edged sword there so I think that's
fantastic we've been to this show together oh we've seen many iterations of this crazy show
well we're at time I we could tell you know we have to schedule another we've just we have
to schedule the GA for apocalypse episode when it was like Y2K to remember Y2K and how everyone
thought that computers would explode at midnight you know when idea 2000 rolled around but I think
this is a I agree with you I think this is a huge issue it is something that a lot of nonprofits
rely on but I don't hear a lot of people talking about and I think there's huge implications but
it's all wrapped up in this big ecosystem of how we're using smart technology how we're using it
as a tool and you know how we're using it to to really further our goals create more impact
whatever that may look like but how can people find out about you find out about whole will
get connected I have a thousand links that I'm going to put in the show notes but where can we find
you online well you can find us at wholewill.com we also have a podcast where we talk about non-profit
news and rant about these types of things and have on guests we should have we should have you on
thanks I can rant a while I'm good at rant so yeah that's where you can find us and thank you
for for taking the time I ate I hope this doesn't sort of only cause I feel like sometimes when I
I'm done talking I've terrified people with like oh no if you don't do this like all things will
melt down like on every side of every coin there are two sides and the upside here is unprecedented
in terms of its potential to help you do more with less like this is that and I'm very excited
about that I'm excited too and there's resources out there and I'll provide more resources whole
will has thousands of blog posts and podcasts and webinars and tons of resources designed for the
non-profit sector to help people navigate these changes and for me I just want people to be aware
to know and then be able to make educated decisions as to how they move forward so that's really
my purpose I hope that we did that today and I'd love to have you on again George
love to come on and talk about any of these topics there's so much more that I was like oh
I'm gonna come back and be like I've why didn't I say this why didn't I say this so I know I do that
all the time but thanks so much and yeah have a great rest of your week and we'll see you again soon
well hey there I wanted to say thank you for tuning into my show and for listening all the way to
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Instagram at Julia Campbell 777 keep changing the world you non-profit unicorn