Do Out Of State Leases Ruin Hunting Opportunities For In State Hunters?

All right guys welcome back to the raised hunting podcast where obviously you're going to get our opinion whether you want it or not, but you guys are fantastic and so the ones of you that are still here that we haven't scared of all that's all their fault because they listen to it so they're like the little kids are encouraging they're enabling us that's what I was looking for we know you have a small vocabulary but we've been asking for guys and gals to turn in their reviews and to give us their reviews and you guys have done so and also you've sent in topics and today today's topic is one that you guys asked for so which on the reviews you guys rock apple guys to you're really trying to come from behind and I love it the Spotify dudes somebody snuck in there on us we were at almost a hundred reviews of straight five star reviews and somebody came in and put a 4.9 you know we can't see him no which that is that is Spotify all I would call you out so hard I would almost feel better about it if it was like if they did goddess to like a 4.7 or something no just we'll come back a 4.7 or something like that that would make no that when we're on a raised hunting podcast and we get a call to the store normally I'd answer it but Warren says that the podcast is more important instead of a customer service to you guys so we have a voicemail we'll leave them we'll call them back no a spike master you demand thank you Nick not thank you Greg Foss thank you Jack 17 and why thank you and the greatest thank you which is Jake so with that being said I'm so appreciative you guys that we're going to do a giveaway you guys do good with doing a giveaway well evidently we got awesome sweet so everybody that has left the review already we're going to put you guys in for some reason do that if you just said that you can't see who did the reviews that's a good question well at least for apple for sure I'll see if there's got to be a way you're screwed no there's got to be a way I'll figure it out I'll figure it out or I'll find somebody to pull some software code somehow and get them out of there but I'm going to put it them in for one and then for everybody else it goes and leaves reviews from now on we'll put them in for another one I feel like there shouldn't be there shouldn't be quite the same level because fixing an issue though I'm going to I just can't do it right now I don't know how to fix it right this second I'm gonna have to go look okay I'm sure there's a way I'll talk to Spotify so somebody's going to get a hat but we don't have a freaking clue who it is or how they're going to get it yes so just so leave reviews yeah and if you left one on Spotify you might want to go leave one on Apple too what I would do is start messaging Warren directly that you'd like a hat that there you go if everyone just does that he'll pick one out of there no you can do that we got people left us the reviews they did it okay all right so should we introduce the topic then sure presented by you guys so it was Jake correct Jake yeah Jake wrote in and should we read what he wrote sure I don't know if we want to go specific or basically is what Jake said that he is looking for is he's been fortunate to gain some permission on some good farms in Kansas however it's getting more difficult because they have out of state people there that are leasing up ground and just limiting the amount of access right and so he was curious to two questions what are your thoughts on much the ground getting leased up and also what is a good way to hunt the fringe of these big leases love the podcast thanks Jake so I think from there that is our topic okay and I have comments on both I mean what do we want to tackle first hunting the fringes or do we want to tackle the go with whatever your heart desires losing losing well that's been what Jake you're not bringing up an issue buddy that hasn't been going on I'm 55 and I can tell you that I probably started thinking about this 40 years ago when I was 15 or 16 it was already a common discussion that we're losing hunting ground whether it was to urban renewal or urban sprawl or whatever it was but we're losing hunting ground and the fact is it's going to continue it whether it's people leasing it whether it's people that don't allow hunting whether it's your neighbor you know guys buy and ground and it's going to continue to get smaller and smaller hopefully the only thing I think though it's a little different on that that I feel I guess I sympathy is the word that I'd have sympathy for Jake on that is we're really fortunate Iowa that there's not really any benefit to a non-resident going coming and leasing ground here no because I was so hard to get a tag correct Kansas that's not the case could you imagine what could you imagine what it would be like here if you had to also compete with non-residents it would suck yeah it would be awful I mean it would at the same time though I mean I almost disagree how because the amount of hunters you have here when they do when you do find places that you can hunt is you're dealing it's some of them are almost like public land with how much how many people other other people are hunting it and typically for a non-resident the nice part about that is at least at least you wouldn't have to worry about it at all I'm just talking about for private lands and everything but the nice part about if you're in like Kansas for instance the majority of them aren't going to be hunting every day like they are here we have so many it would not be true if yeah they might go for a week or two but the 75% of the guys that are going there to hunt are going out of state to hunt are not capable of hunting like a resident is unless they're retired have enough money to go buy up some land and go live wherever they want to live for I mean there's an argument both ways there I think that so and it kind of goes to Jake's next question when he's talking about hunting the fringes hunting the fringes of really good hunting ground could be great that person that you're talking about that comes in and it's one guy or three or four guys that lease or buy a piece of ground and they own it and they only hunt it they're they're managing it and they're trying to kill bigger deer if that land was getting hunted before by a whole bunch of people knowing was doing any managing Jake's spot just got better you see what I'm saying I mean that would be that could happen and so quality wise quality wise and possibly quantity wise too if there was a lot of people in there hunting vice versa could happen if no one was hunting it before and he was hunting the fringes and so he didn't have anyone to compete with now all the sudden someone buys the farm releases the farm he's competing against that I think lose a few of his deer I think honestly as far as people doing I mean I think that it sucks to have to deal with that because I just think we wouldn't be able to fort any lease here in Iowa if you made that not if you made if it was open the price of a lease per acre would be unbelievable but anyways I guess my point with that is at the same time I don't really know how you mitigate that so I think in my opinion the only way that you can mitigate that is you have to outwork it and the way that I do that one he sounds like he's already done a lot of that he's got permission but the other thing is you can still get permission nowadays and we've discussed this before it's just not perfect example yeah it's just not the same way as you used to where 30 years ago everybody was you know a lot more open that you could just knock on the door and be like hey can I go hunting here and my the the way I would explain that is you just have to put a lot more effort into building a relationship and try to think of it as don't pop the question right away try to think of a way to start building a relationship and giving yourself an excuse to talk to those people and get to know them and and build a relationship with them and then pop the question you know what I'm saying because you're talking about you have to think about it in the terms of the landowner of what they see is they see somebody on their porch who just asked to carry around a weapon and try and kill an animal on their property that to us we understand what we're talking about and that may not seem like such a huge thing to them that's that's a pretty significant ask right away especially some of them though it is they would pay you to do that yeah there is some of those but it's those are the those are the ones those are the ones that you find 17 other guys hunting too absolutely in place and so I think you can definitely still get permission out days but you're gonna have to definitely put more effort into building a relationship um and then and you know it may be get creative like here I wish COVID COVID really really screwed us here in Iowa because I was and I wish I'd had just done it then all of the farmers used to go to Casey's every morning at 6 a.m. and eat their donuts and so they were all sitting there together is what I should have been doing is buying the donuts and sitting there and just talking with them and getting to know them for several months and building a relationship that's what I should have been doing was getting up at 6 a.m. and said going to the gym buying them some donuts and just made building a relationship with them but now Casey's took the tables out because of COVID and everything and so they they never came back maybe that's why he's gonna establish a farm donut shop but there's lots of things I mean now I think that's just we talk to any local places they breakfast they go there every day yeah but I think that you can go farther now like with asking you offering to work I mean it would go a long ways when you when you offer to a farmer to help with with pain or helping with bar bar fence or whatever it may be cutting down some trees or helping stack firewood or whatever that's a great way to open a relationship absolutely I would also say you ain't gonna get that to happen a lot of times the amount of farmers that I mean in my experience you they got to get to know you to let you work with them because they don't want to worry about any liability or they're too stubborn to let you work and I know that firsthand or more work for them because you wreck their tractor yeah so well but but I guess we're talking sauce pipes off not every landowner is a farmer he does that too yeah not every landowner is a farmer so you're gonna run into someone that can't do the work themselves or sure they would love the best scenario you can see and that's where as a hunter you got to be watching for storm goes through see all kinds of limbs laying on the ground you know go knock on the door hey I saw this knocked over a whole bunch of stuff if you want a hand I'd love to give you a hand cleaning up some of this stuff you know I do hunt and maybe if there's a way we can swap out or something or don't even bring it up yet that that time just you know like to help out they'll ask you why you're offering to help you know yeah which so you're probably better off to not ask that first time absolutely and get that's where I'm saying that play the kiss assery card that's what that's a one-time thing though that you know where you're you need to try to have something that you can continually do where it's not just like hey you have any work for me today that's why my theory is don't do that I mean you can do that because it'd be beneficial but you're gonna be stuck you're trying to go to so many of them and what I my thing is just drop stop I mean maybe look at an area on on X it where you'd maybe want to hunt stop trying to pick out which ones as good land which one is this and that start knocking on every freaking door you possibly can and wait till you get a yes yeah because the further you get out it's just casting more lines in the water and eventually you're gonna get a yes and maybe it's not the greatest place maybe it is the greatest place but don't waste your time on taking the time to for one specific thing that might not ever happen in the first place if you want to do it that way that's great if you're willing to be patient and only do it for some of them but my opinion go knock on a hundred doors get yourself a yes or two and go from there because when you do get the yes that's when I can really start building relationship because I have a reason to be out there and I can prove them prove to them that I I'm not going to hurt anything the only thing I'm going to do is help your land because I'll help you with work I'll help you do other things I'm helping to manage the wildlife on your land and your crops if they have them whatever else it is well the other thing is though you can start with other things other than deer hunting or other than turkey hunting I mean it's predator control can be a good one yeah that's a really good one that I've gotten it like I haven't got to know on that like everybody that I asked to go Kyle hunting they are like telling me when to come Kyle on right so then that's with a rifle so I mean but I think we're a little off base here on how to hunt specific areas well that was a part of the question I think number one I think we got to summarize and answer that somewhat on how we feel about people leasing ground getting leased up and I don't I don't I get where guys come from like what Jake saying I understand what like it's painting it makes it harder for sure if you're not the one that is able to do the leasing but I can't really get mad at it because although I hunt permission I would be the first to tell you that I would fork out whatever bit is in my savings account to go freaking get a lease because I want to have a I don't care I'm gonna I just that's just me but I would be the reason I don't have an issue of other people's for me since no you should not the reason I don't have an issue with guys leasing is because of the fact that I would like to do it too I'm just not in a financial state where I could do it so if they're gonna be able to do it honestly it benefits me more than it hurts me as far as especially like with what Jake saying if he's saying the guys are coming to lease near him well how many how many people that are leasing or how many hunters that are leasing do you think are just shooting everything not very I wouldn't be very many I mean I would I mean in my I don't know how you would ever qualify I don't know either I'm just going this is just opinion based here but I think just going off the amount of people we talk to it shows that reach out to us and stuff that we do know have leases and things the vast majority of them are doing some form of managing or not like going through and wiping out every two year old there is so point being he's he's benefiting off of that and the only way he's not benefiting is if something got leased out from under him where he doesn't get a honoured anymore but if they're bordering you that's a great opportunity to get a hold of them and start talking to them about what dear they have gain some trust with them because then you're gonna know if you have some dear there they have some dear there okay hey let's try to keep this one out and before you know it if you can start gaining trust with your neighbors you'll have blocks big big blocks of lots of acres where you guys are all communicating with each other helping the herd with the amount of doves you guys are harvesting what bucks to harvest what bucks to pass who's doing what and it really helps more than being able to or having to hunt everything to be able to do that well I've been on both sides and where Jake is sounds like the side he's on is he doesn't have as much ground or what he's saying is it's better ground that's on the other side of the fence that these guys own or lease is moving fast like that there's lots of it are getting leased okay either one my point would be is I've been on both sides where I had a sign a piece of ground to hunt and yet someone else had a lot more and I agree with eastern if you can develop a rapport with someone so that they're willing to share information with you and you're willing to share information with them and that's something that sometimes hunters have a really tough time let's think about that though for a second because I disagree a hundred percent well I figured you would well let's just how much information are you sharing all all of it so okay so now let's just say that that guy that leased the neighbor's ground yep okay and you decide you're gonna share all this information and you have a 180 that shows up with double drops and you don't know if he's got pictures of it or not you're sharing that the only way the only way that you're gonna earn trust with someone is yes okay and then what's the chances that next year he says that that dude is not very nice guy and he's got access to as much money that he needs and he goes to your land owner that's giving you permission and says here's 15k for your 150 acres to lease it to me for the year well I'd be pissed at that guy but I mean there's nothing but well so I'm not even putting myself in that position I'm telling my I ain't seeing nothing on my side of the fence except one big spike because I don't I don't I don't need to present the opportunity for him to do that because the fact is a lot of those guys not those guys just people in general will get eight up with size of things and they're gonna and then who knows what they're going to do I can be cordial with them and maybe a two-year-old or something like that that that we're all hoping yeah I might share that but as far as like a really really big deer people we've we've seen it everybody knows people do crazy stuff for big deer and I'm not gonna but I disagree with doing that kind of stuff but I'm also not gonna be the one just sharing information and subjecting myself to having to deal with that or you get somebody because we and I we know of guys that that's all they do that they have ton more money than they know what to do with and they try and find a huge deer a 200 plus inch deer and they go and lease that ground to try to hunt it well I think you have to trust your intuition a little bit and get to know this person some of the case by case yeah because I can tell you right now that there's a couple farm there's a farm that we hunt that I share information with a guy that I would trust with any deer that walked across I would okay here you go here here now there's other farms that we hunt we don't even know who owns that I mean I know the name from on X I can look it up but I've never had a conversation with him I can't I've tried I'll reach out to all the neighbors at some point and some of them they won't open the door so then I'm not sure I'm not like going by their house hey man I got pictures of a big deer just wanted to let you know but if someone will work with me I'll work with them whether I'm the one that has more or whether I'm the one that has less and I believe that if you did if you work together it's super nice to be able to know that that deer is gone or that that deer did not leave that he just moved over somewhere and they've seen him you know so that you and then you have an understanding of what's going on so I'm all about sharing information I know you're not but I I think that in the long I share whatever I want to share depending on who it is well I read that because I there's one or two people I know that I'm not telling them a word because they'll they'll come walking under my stands or they'll ruin my hunt and I'm not doing it but there's other guys that I know that either hunt the same places I do or hunt right nearby that have reached out to me before and said hey I noticed the buck you just shot this year I we've known it for a couple years and that simply that message right there has made it where now I talk to him and I can I they send me pictures of deer that they know that are around or when they're out there and things like that and I do the same and so there's different levels to that I think you know like like a lot of the deer it's not that big a deal it's when you start getting into really really big deer that people start getting a little loony on what they'll do because it may not even be them that that does anything to mess it up it might be that they talk to the wrong person right and that person found out and then they're doing something well the good part about that is I don't have I don't have that big a deer so I'm just I've got big deer for myself I'm just thinking as far as for my my scale but as far as a deer that's going to make people go crazy I'm not a I'm just saying look at Nick's ear look at Nick the deer Nick killed a few years ago is 254 that went insane the dude had to get out of undercover um work because he became famous overnight from his deer right if people knew that deer was around they would have been people have been trying to buy the ground on wherever he killed I mean it was nuts I think you're talking about a very very rare yeah that's what I'm saying is different situation so anyways back to the initial portion of it I don't really the I don't really have I don't have an issue with leasing and I think that it's difficult to say at this point that I think it's really difficult for people to get mad at people for leasing because it's gotten to a point now where for those landowners I don't believe that a landowner that one person says oh I'm not going to lease this so that it stays open to the other people that have permission I don't believe that's going to happen I think the landowner is going to find somebody that's willing to lease it that's the other thing that you kind of have to self reflect on a little bit as just a whole group of hunters is as hunters we need to stop being so entitled it is private land they have owned it they have bought it whether they inherited it or they actually use their own money to get it so the fact that they're willing to lease it to somebody else or they don't want to give you permission whatever else you don't have a right to that land so if they tell you know or they lease it to somebody else yeah it probably sucks or it might suck but you can't really be too mad at a landowner if they're simply saying yes to somebody that wants to lease it's their land at the end of the day I think they're not saying they're mad at the landowners saying they're mad at people for leasing like hunters leasing and I don't think you're ever going to stop it simply them being entitled to thinking that they have the right to be able to all the private land and they in it's get off the high horse because I don't know that it's entitled but I do I just think it's entitled in jealousy it's not jealousy but especially when they had permission before or something like that but I think you have to see a lot of times you that landowner may be in a position where thanks to doctor Biden up there you know the now their property taxes is skyrocket or whatever and they can't even afford their property tax and so they have to lease it or something like that I get that but just being mad that things are getting leased you got to find you got to find a way to get around it you got to find a way to get in on it or you got to find an alternative that's how everything is in line the fact is it's not going to get any less no that's my point it's going to increase and the fact that one guy over here has the money to go lease something and you don't I'm right there with you buddy so I mean it you can't be it actually the more I'm thinking about this it really really pisses me off the amount of people that are so against leases and stuff and this is not at Jake because he doesn't sound like he is at all but just the fact of that I do now that I am I'm going to take a stance on that one hundred percent that it is entitled jealous that the reason people get so mad about people leasing or the more common it gets is because they're entitled to the private land and their jealous of them well I think you have to look at it a few different ways so for instance in Iowa two percent of the entire ground is public one one percent okay so one percent I think that you're always going to have people that will never lease their ground I think they'll always be those ones too for sure but I think that I mean I can understand how it would be difficult to deal with when you're losing lots and lots and opportunities imagine if your place got least because some dude but I was dealt with it I know it just it's I can sympathize some do I think that it should be the reason that you decide you're not going to go trying to be and get creative and figure out to get permission absolutely not but I can sympathize with that it could suck to have that happen and that it is probably going to continually get worse which I've thought about before there needs to be some kind of non-profit or something but the problem is hunters would have to the one especially the guys that wind about somebody else leasing would have to be willing to contribute to be a hundred dollars a year or something to be a member of this nonprofit that goes in leases ground and opens it to the public but you that you would need a lot of guys willing to do that I think my thing is that I guess I'm trying not to be hypocritical with my own thought processes because I know gang well like the whole farm that I haven't got leased out I'm going to be I'm probably going to be more emotionally hurt than I am anything because I'm just attached to that that land is it means a lot to me because I've hunted it for so long and I've had so many memories on it but at the same time I'm trying to I put myself in the shoes of that guy if I had the chance to lease certain places I'm not going to feel very bad about going to lease it and well the other thing I think you should be saying is you should be constantly trying to find any places yeah like put your put yourself in the opportunity to have as much as many things as you can so please or own or whatever because it's going to get and I've been there I've lost farms because someone bought it and then I couldn't hunt there anymore because the landowner that I had permission from gave me permission the landowner that bought it hunted himself can't be mad at that guy he's just doing what you're doing you know he wanted to hunt and so he bought a piece of ground that he could hunt and I lost and you know you talk about having several years into something though but look at the ones that are 30 years you know the tradition is they got more than one generation maybe even two or three that have hunted that ground yeah and then they lose it that emotionally that hurts but it's going to continue yeah it's going to mean the fact is there's only so much ground and there ain't no one making anymore yeah so it's not going to get any better and the biggest problem with that is not the leasing it's the fact of we're losing so much private ground that gets ate up by a new strip mall new this or that it's the it's shrinking expansion yeah it's shrinking what is available or think about how many places even out in the country though are getting sectioned yeah absolutely they go to auction they'll be one big chunk you've had multiple pieces of land by your house that is they sectioned in the five different things put it up for auction and you know dang well that if somebody's buying those they're probably putting a house on it well to put it in perspective how do you ever I mean no on my point is just that there's a lot of things going on with leases and everything else too but if you look at the other side too there's a lot of non-hunting things that are taking away land oh yeah and it's expanding rapidly quick that's what maybe that's just our area our kids and their kids what what it's going to look like in 50 years you know like I know I think you got still some places Montana and a couple of those like you get out west and still pretty vast but like Iowa you could see oh you could see a lot of this be urbanized in 50 years well I think that also comes from the fact that you're you start off with big big chunks of land and when they when one guy starts to section it is when it goes into another one and then I was now here's that he made X amount of millions on it but the great thing is you don't need a big chunk of ground but that's ten acres could be the perfect amount of ground to kill I'm just saying that you start with something out west is you it's not uncommon to find a 50,000 piece of bigger piece of land thank you we some we appreciate that next subject all right let's go ahead because you have a perfect way into it what you just get a little long winded sometimes with what your lungs they just keep going don't ask me you does it to me that actually pissed me off you're just angry today no I was in the middle of a sentence go on what are you talking we're already way off topic we need to talk about how to hunt that we're doing is we're reverting back all right and dad's ten acres was a perfect segue into that well I'm because we've done that we've walked into a place and we've only had I've done it multiple times but small track of ground I think I'll use Montana for example there was a river bottom that it was an archery only area and they didn't allow crossbows in there and just putting that out there that it was archery only meaning it was vertical boat you need to shorten your lungs you're talking too much come on okay don't get mad at me because you're mad at him so this bow area has one two farmers that own the majority of the ground and I can't get permission on them so I knock on the door of a guy that owns 40 acres in the middle of it he says no but he refers me to the next door neighbor that owns 20 and I go over there he says yes I ended up killing two or three popen young bucks off of that piece of ground because it sat right in the middle Kurt Clark is another one that I would use is a guy that has 80 acre piece that sits in the middle I think it's 20,000 acres he hunts that little strip every single year he's killing a good deer so my point is is that but the the question was hunting the fringes that right there is right does that happen to be in the middle of it the word I'm talking about though was I'm still hunting the fringes if obviously the area around me is so big that the deer hunting is better you can look over and see in in Montana it's not uncommon to look and see 150 200 deer feeding in a particular field right and 25 of them are bucks and they're not coming over to where you are it's till the rut starts and when the rut starts they start moving or if you could have put back then I wish that I could have done like what you were just recently doing and put in a food plot could I have sucked some of those deer over on my side possibly I don't know that because I never did it but I ended up killing them because I implemented calls the other thing that I would tell you that I didn't know anything about it the time was glandular scents and the utilization of a rub tree holy cow I think it could have made a huge difference so there are ways to bring those deer off of the other pieces of ground now granted if someone is setting their ground up if the meaning what I was dealing with was just the fact that the deer had all these other places to live what Jake might be running into is if someone has bought it to hunt they're setting that up to keep those deer over there but the fact is unless it's a really big big big chunk of ground good chance that they aren't staying there all the time do you think you can move their home ranges I think you can alter or lengthen them or I don't know if you can move I don't know that any way they say that every mature buck on average is killed within one mile of where they were born I don't I don't think you can move their home range I think that you can now like during certain times of the year I think you can like late season well that's I just need them to do it one time not if you killed them before late season my is what I'm saying is I think that now can this could be different too especially it's like on the western half where there's where there's not a lot of crops or anything I think you could definitely make a big difference by having food but I think a lot of these deer that where they're born and where they live they live there that's it doesn't matter if the neighbor has really nice food plots and does all this to their timber like there's certain places where the deer just that's part of their home range it's part of where they live I don't think you can suck them off there all the time 100% of the time again to completely move into your place I think you can during late season I do believe that because they they will go to the food but I think that during the rest of the year October or November I don't think you can really do that I think you can get them to frequent it maybe more but I think that even if you're on the fringes I think you're in good shape the great the great thing or the bad thing if you own a bunch of ground bad thing is is that you probably still don't own enough ground to keep the deer on your place great thing is as if you're the do that doesn't own ground they're probably not keeping those deer on their place all the time and what I'm getting at is a thousand acres depends on how it lies could it keep a deer on there all the time probably not probably coming off of it but what we're seeing is at least in here in Iowa that these deer's home range is mile or two without any with with no issues now we've had deer that exception to the rule be junior junior didn't have a one mile radius but lots of other deer have been way bigger than that so it just depends on the deer it depends on the deer depends on the place depends on where they're going and coming from depends on the neighbors what they put in for crops and things like that they're just too many things too many variables I think it takes a tremendous amount of ground I the number that I think of is probably in the three to four thousand acre and that would have to be like a rectangular or square is the only way you're going to keep deer without ever leaving that place three four thousand I think it's got to be three or four thousand and that deer lives in the center and the deer lives in the center and then he hopefully wouldn't wander off onto another piece of ground that's a lot are you good there's not much to input on this you don't you don't you we can talk about as much as you want but if no matter what you're doing you hunt the edge you hunt where the deer are going you can't control what's on the other side so you're all giving somebody an hour of tips is not going to benefit anybody you don't think there's anything you can do to try to so how close do you have to read the edges what do you do slam right on I know but you're not shooting over the fence you ain't doing anything wrong okay so you agree with that you can utilize the entire thing yeah that's what you have permission on but you have nothing else you can do in there over there all you gotta do it you just have to see where they're coming from coming to and from and hunt those areas you can't do anything about if they're staying over there or not Jean you put a food plot in there or something and get them to come across events more depends on what it is over there if they got crops and ag fields you're not going to be able to pull them very much now about a scrape or rub tree or something now I think honestly I think there's so many variables that is so hard to say man this is going off of it could be an acre that you're hunting it could be a hundred acres you're hunting and they have ten thousand they could have five acres over there I well let's go to the scenario then let's say they let's just say that they do have it all they got a seven hundred acre not quite three thousand but just say they got the big twelve acres yep and you have 40 acres and part of it is part of it is ag connected to ag and then the other part is funnel connected to timber and the other part is pasture how would you hunt that or or do you think that there's anything you can do on your place to separate it to get them to come across events if they're not already coming across events you're gonna have massive issues I agree I don't think I think when it comes to fringes I think you're gonna have to just a matter of figuring out what they're going back and forth from and go hunt that area you're not going to be able to move the whole herd of deer people say you can do TSI work you know the cut and tree be yes yeah well I disagree and the reason I disagree is because I look back and we've had we have a farm that we just that just sold that we had a hard time killing deer on yeah I look back and I go if I had employed a rub tree on that I think I would have actually killed a deer I do honestly believe out of what the stand that we called Karen stand if I had put a rub tree right there I had enough deer come close enough on the neighbors that I think that their interests would have got them across the that if I had that there where it was there all the time they had a chance to hit it in the daytime at night time and then eventually one would have made the mistake yeah I don't think you're getting that to happen consistently I can sit but but when a guy doesn't have the ability to hunt anything else you have to just find where the deer give yourself the yeah so so you're going to put yourself there at the prime time if whether that's October 25th to November 15th whatever time you have off you got to pick you got without a doubt when in a in a situation like this you got to become a better hunter you got to start paying attention to the little things when I should go how often I should go how am I entering how am I because maybe you can utilize something maybe they're doing something wrong on the other side and you can utilize it they're pushing them over to you I think a lot of times you might be in a better situation as far as they however there's is laid out maybe you have some of the betting on you or maybe your timber connects to the betting so there may be a really big deal over there that during October you can't necessarily kill but that first week in November he's he's jumping the fence and he's making loops especially like if you got one funnel oh I would be all about that because I know yeah like you said I may not be able to get him to come consistently over that fence but the one or two times that he decides that he's going to make a make a loop over there at least you got somewhere to sit that you know right if he does it I should get a shot and your access might be better you may not have to worry but I think I would look at and still not and try not to hunt you know necessary I would be looking at and seeing can I also hunt the neighbors quote unquote meaning you're not hunting on the neighbors you're not going across the fence but can I try to not bump the deer out of their field if they're going to naturally come back and bed and go through a funnel where I'm at or come to my my food in the evening or something to try and try and benefit me to be able to kill a deer on the French I do think it's going to be tough though I think that the first thing I'd be trying to do is identify if he's truly on the fringe or not meaning if I can get a daylight picture of him somewhere especially before November he may not be on the fringe he might be on me I think a lot of times we're just going to assume that they're over there you know that all the deer are over there I think they only have one choice it's studying that's it you're not going to you can maybe change a deer here and there but you're not going to change whether or not they're living over there living over here that's you got to see where they're coming across when they're coming across why they're coming across and hunt it from that other than food I think food can drive them food and over if you have an act field on your side it's probably going to help bring them to you yeah so if you can if you can afford to have a farmer leave a couple acres of beans in or corn in or whatever have them do that you know anything that you can do to or put in a food plot like you were talking about let's say before late season that before late season and I do there's a lot of guys that think that you can alter where the deer are willing to live should that shame here because I guarantee you he would tell you you can shame also has the ability to the amount of land he has in the amount of fields and stuff in the mountain wherever he wants the amount of effort he puts in into no but he puts a lot effort into the ground he does have to optimize it for food yeah do you think though that that shame is able to or that anybody or that you for that matter able to manipulate those deer to where where their home range if you weren't there would have been somewhere else you're able to move them and get them to stay on you or to spend more a larger majority of their time on you I don't I don't think that I have been I don't think I have a big enough chunk anywhere to do that I disagree with you you've done that solely on the fact of not hunting what do you mean during shotgun season yeah those deer pile into your places because they are safe and I think a lot of they learn that it's a safe haven yeah you're around now if you hon it correctly where they know that there's not like a massive pressure they're they're living there more frequently because they know they don't get honed on you nearly as much as they do on the neighbors yeah I do think pressure can definitely move on oh I for sure I agreed but you were you were asking if I thought we were I was keeping the deer there by something I was doing other than not hunting them I guess I wasn't considering that something I'm doing no I'm just saying like if you took a 500 acre piece of ground and you do all this stuff that everybody's talking about do all the TSI stuff and all the food plot stuff and everything else a deer that and let's just say your neighbor doesn't pressure them a ton as well it but you put in more food and blah blah blah blah before late season before they have to go find food do you think you're able to manipulate where that deer is going to spend the majority of his life I think you deaf if he spends two more days I manipulated it to some extent you know so yes I do I yeah I think you can do that I think you can have an effect on him so then what would you try to do on a small piece on a fringe to do that just food I don't think I would be thinking as big is what you're talking like no I don't think or can you do it really if you're having a compete with a big I'm looking at another one where um the deer I shot that nine we hunted a fringe remember where um what nine the one that I didn't kill hit him in the front shoulder oh yes yeah okay so we were hunting the fringe of a big farm yep you know and so we had to figure out the edges I'll come back to and and I don't know why other than I just believe that the this I don't want to sound like a salesman because I'm not trying to sell anybody anything but I do believe that glandular sense and a rub tree and I could have put that deer on that levy I would have put it right I know exactly where I would have put that rub tree and I would have pulled that deer across the fence although I didn't need him to come across the fence we I mean I needed him to come where he did in that specific instance I think I could have had him do it more often yeah because we had pictures of him on the levy yeah we have pictures of him on our side but I don't think he would have done it in that scenario because he was on a hot doe not not that particular time what I'm saying is had I had some way of bringing him over to because he was already utilizing us some you're just saying trying to give him some little thing to give you the ability to kill him yes that now I have a place where he doesn't randomly come across the fence and spend a little time on my place and maybe he's a hundred yards away from me and I can't get a shot at him I now have a place for him to swing too that I know that I know which way to hunt the wind and be able to get a shot so I guess seeing my mind I'm thinking the the neighbor has the better place and I can't do anything with the chunk that I have other than I don't have the ability to put in a food plot I don't have the ability to leave in corn or beans so what else can I do the other one is is calls I can't that the the the place I was we'll do that one on a separate one because we have that as a topic from requested well but but just a quick so in Montana on that piece of property that I was talking about that I had that was just 20 acres there happened to also be two sides of it had a six and a half foot chain link fence and I was like I put my stand face in the other way I hung it with the wind blowing away from that because I'm like there's no way a deer can come over that even though I know a deer could jump that fence that's still a big same 28 yeah still a big barrier I hit the rattling horns one day with the deer that was on the other side of that fence because my wind was kind of quarter in a way and he came hauling and hop the fence and I shot him at 12 yards and so my point is is that everything was going against me I just happened to be sitting there at the right time of year and utilize the calls to bring him over off of the other property and I killed a pope and young deer why did they have a six and a half foot chain link fence at some point there had been some they had had some kind of animals in there or something and so the rest of it was down it was like a little pasture thing so it was probably 150 yards long and a hundred yards long it was only two sides but didn't but he didn't go around it he ran and jumped over the fence um so okay so I guess that's a technique when you have an animal there but yeah well I mean you're if you're talking about hunting the fringe I think about the only technique you can use that my last four deer three of the four have been from a neighbors and I brought him to me the which ones her sheet the one before the eight before that her name is on the neighbors yeah he's white he's like 300 yards on the neighbors west of you north oh west uh Hershey the eight and then my ten from last year the obok yeah but he didn't come from the neighbors I think you want to bet that he none of those deer were coming from us they were all coming from right across the fence um every night unless they were coming out of the big patch timber other than the uh if you have one doing it on the fringes especially hitting a scrape or a rub tree during the daylight I think you're in a better position than the guy with the big with the big place because it's what it makes you do is be disciplined and you meaning you just go you gotta keep going sitting at same spot over and over and over as long as the wind is right and you're not burning them out and until he does it and you'll kill him which there's a lot of deer that we all have had that opportunity to do and we just then when you have other options then you're like oh maybe I need to sit here for him right you sit here for him and then you just end up playing ping pong with him instead of just waiting him out until he does it like that was I told you that your um bullwinkle the year before I killed him I said if you want to kill bullwinkle you need to go and sit here and just keep sitting there every day and I knew I didn't have the patience to do it and so that's what I was telling you you should have gone and done it you should have because he'd have been bigger that year but but the deer that I have the one from Illinois that I have then when you go down my stairs there yep that deer came from 300 yards away on the neighbors and so I put a lot of faith and I can tell you I can I don't know how many times we've been contemplating we're standing in the trees we're like this is the right tree this is right that's right everything but we're not we know we're not in exactly the right spot we're 40 yards 50 yards too far away and we're like it's okay I can rattle from here I can get him to come over here and we'll go ahead because we can't move over to where the exact right there's not a tree there's not a place to put a ground blind or whatever so that's definitely one that I would utilize is you know calls and because you can move some deer and especially when you catch him at the right time and it's and in Jake's specific specifically talking to Jake my experience with Kansas Whitetails it's the only place I've seen more aggressive Whitetails than Iowa yeah they were saying they respond well broma came across the fence from uh from a neighbor as well rug post yep and rattling things is don't maybe not put as much weight in trail cameras either because when you start getting later in the season get closer to rut there's probably a lot of deer you've never seen you know they never had a reason or they just weren't over quite on you yet and then they started you know some uh going on little trips and and then also you got a couple new big deer and I think that we've learned something in the mid or I've learned something in the Midwest that I couldn't say before and that is that is these deer here have a summer range just as much as they do a winter range I mean it is flat different you won't you I mean and the great thing is when you the bad thing can be is if they're submarine on you because you're going out and you're like looking from the road and you're glass and you're like oh my gosh look at this man this is huge it's huge it's huge there's a big deer there's another deer but then also they leave yep and so I believe that those deer have three places maybe they have more than that but they have a summer range they have a winter range and then they have a place where when the rut is going on when it gets close that they're going to go back to and there's some I think they don't ever leave correct there's something to say yeah we talked about those zones are play a lot so but I guess in Jake's case I would be don't be too you know down on yourself if you're not seeing them where you need to see them right now you know there's a good chance they could move in and especially if the fringes are being hunt if the fringe that you're talking about is better hunting than what you are then you got a good chance of killing one of those deer yep you know so there you go there's a couple ways of looking at it a couple different ways to slice up the pie leases and fringes is that it are we all chimed in with everything we got for today I think that's all I got Easton yes sir all right all right guys we'll thank you guys again for joining in thank you Jake for giving us a topic that struck a nerve I think and and something that I think that people are dealing with in every state both doing both things both trying to you know mitigate or or navigate through losing property to hunt to how do I do it how do I actually hunt this property and I think the farther east you go the more smaller chunks you deal with so you're going to deal with it a lot more and a lot of times you can't cross the fence and that's okay so anyhow hopefully everything that we talked about today helped hopefully that you guys appreciated it keep sending the reviews Warren says that the apple folks are catching up to the Shopify so and Spotify Spotify there you go and somehow he's going to figure out who to give a hat to so who knows how that'll work but got two hats they're going to go out other than that we'll see you next time thanks again Shopify I knew it was a part of i