Does "High Fence" Count As Hunting?

Okay guys, welcome back to the raised hunting podcast and today is pretty exciting. Not because we have two special guests because they're here every week. They're special though. But anyhow, because we have a pretty controversial, it ain't a pretty controversial. It's a very controversial topic. I've fixed for a very small amount of people though. I don't think so. I think we may strike a nerve here. But before we go there, we know what I want to think. I want to thank a previous person that commented because then they wrote us and that is Heather Ashener. Hold up. Keep both hands on the wheel here. Don't go in the ditch because Heather said that she heard us reach out to her as she was driving down the road and that kind of shock to her. Well, it's not a big deal to us as far as doing the shout outs because we really, really, really do appreciate you guys. Heather, we also apologize for his awful ability to answer a message on Facebook. I answered this is way as far as. When he says a thumbs up, this is what he's implying with a thumbs up. So you can read between the lines on that. He's old, so he doesn't understand how to communicate. Okay. And then another one though, Heather, we might have someone that has taken your place now that kind of bumping you out of the way here. So we want to thank Grant Oldenburg who wrote in and I don't know what he did whether I know what he wrote, but was it in a review that he said this? Yes, his review. Okay. So this is a five star like they're supposed to be. Good deal, Grant. Well, Grant's been following us. If I remember correctly from what you read to me since 2016. Yep, at the Wisconsin deer fest. Yeah. So I mean, but that's we're in 23. That's seven years. So Grant, thank you. Thank you a ton, man. We sure appreciate it, buddy. And we're glad you found the podcast. So for all of you out there in podcast land, if we've asked, please continue to do so because you guys have responded super well, that's why we're able to read these. But one is the reviews. We really need the reviews. The reviews push our ranking, which means we reach more people. The other one is sharing it with your friends. So make sure that you do that. I'd be curious to know if Grant was at the seminar where I did my Johnny Cash performance. I doubt that is what he was. That in 2016. It was one of those years and was that deer fest. He would. We probably got a one star review. And he would have remembered that. I guarantee it. Well, you missed out, man. If you didn't see it, you only knew what like three lines. That's the only part that matters. Nobody else listens to the rest of the song. What I'm trying to remember. I could say. I fell into a burning ring of fire. I could sing the whole thing. No, you couldn't. Not then I couldn't. Well, don't do it now. We don't have time. Okay. So let me introduce the topic. High fences. Is it honey? I think that was really anti dramatic. No, it's not. It's just going to introduce our topic today. Well, with this topic, I think kind of started with your, what I saw a picture of that you had the other day. You have a high fence around your Dagon feeder that you have out legally. That is not a high fence. You also have a medium. It's an if it is the sad excuse for. What you glad it is in the dark. And I was like, what? It's called reflectors. So that you can find it. What is the hope with that? I just hope it. Because that feeder, the way to get the corn out, I was anticipating that a feeder would just let the corn come out. It's a gravity feeder. Well, yeah, it doesn't work that it doesn't. It's not supposed to. You don't want it because it okay. It doesn't let any out at all. It does. No, it genuinely doesn't. I don't know if it's with the angle that I have it at, but it does not. Would you listen to two seconds? Would you listen for two seconds? It doesn't let anything out. So unless you touch it or reach in there and grab some of the corn, it doesn't do anything. So the reason it took them so long the first time is because they had to learn how to get the corn out. Well, now they all walk up and put their noses in the little thing and pull the corn out and then it spills a bunch for them. So I figured, okay, well, if you put the rope around the poles, then when they go to reach in there, he'll accidentally whack his antler and knock it off right there. You have the rope below the holes. No, it's around the holes. Are you sure? Yeah. It's exact everywhere. I don't know how they can get into anything. They did. It's not that tight. Yeah. I made it loose so that if they like, if they got caught in it, it's really light. I would kill them. It's light rope. So it breaks. So if they got caught in it, they would either break it or their antler comes off. I'm not going to laugh at you too much because then you know there'll be one later. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Okay. The reason that the feeder is built the way that it's built is because if it was a true gravity feed and it was just wanting to run it, but it's for out, you'd have three piles and it would be supposed to drop a little bit though. No, it's supposed to do it off of something moving that and there's a bolt in it that you adjust the bolt on how much they move it, how much comes out. So today we're talking about high fences. Yeah. All right. I don't know what his deal is. Well, that's not really a high fence, but it's close. No, let's say it's not close. It doesn't even contain anything. Okay. Corn. Yeah, it contains corn. There you go. All right. Well, let's talk a little bit about the high fence situation because we had someone right in and accused us of hunting from behind a high fence. That's not the first time. Or within a high fence. Pretty much any and this is for everybody that hunts. If you kill anything of decent size, I would say the majority of hunters have probably heard somebody say, oh, it must be nice to hunt a high fence or some sly comment about something. I would not say it's just us. Oh, you're saying that everybody's heard this? Possibly. I don't. But I have no idea. I see it on comments and stuff on people. But I don't know where this guy's comment came from. I don't know what sparked it. I can't find the exact post that he's referring to. But anyhow, I don't know one we don't need to defend ourselves. That's not it. But I can tell someone is, as far as I know, other than a mouse or a possum, things that have been in my home, I've never killed anything contained in anything. Anything that I've ever hunted has always been 100% fair chase. Even to the effect of that we've found some animals that were stuck together and we didn't shoot the other one when one was alive. Would you consider our access to your yeah, one and the same thing? No. It's a nine mile by 14 mile island. That's the highest fence. Technically the lowest it's. Maybe they can swim. They can swim, but not that far. Imagine seeing the access deer just get chomped by a shark. For anybody wondering what they're referring to, we went on a vacation, a family vacation to Hawaii that ended up being an access deer hunt. It didn't end up being. That's where it started off. Originally planned for a vacation and then we added the access deer hunt. I think that was part of the plan. It was we started the access deer. Hawaii and these two got to hunt together and they shot two access deer on one of the islands, Lanai. It's not like super big. They're free range. It's not by 14 miles. Yeah, well, as far as the animal themselves go, they've lived there for way back when when it was a gift. Correct. Like way back like from a Japanese emperor. I want to say it was like the 1200 or some crap. No, I don't think it was that long ago. It was a long, long time ago. I would have to look it up. They've been there for a long time. We'll get a look it up and see when the access deer introduced to Lanai. The access deer were introduced to Lanai. Now they live there. They're not only on the island of Lanai though. I think there's on some of the other ones. On the main islands? I don't know which ones exactly, but I know they're not just on that island. Either way, my point was saying why they were or how long they've been there for is because they live there free range. So good point. It could be a gray area as far as is it free range because they can't go anywhere. But then when you really think about it, America is they can't technically leave America. But no, the majority of the animals here are not going to travel across the country to try to leave somewhere. So what we're talking about is the amount of ground. Yeah, I mean, because I will say this about high fences because if we're just going to put it out there, I don't agree with hunting high fences. Well, I think we need to do this right. Hold on to it. First, probably. What? Regionally. Yeah. Okay. Like let's do in North America first. Okay. Because I do think that there's some points to be made with Africa and things like that on their high fence stuff. Okay. So let's just go North America first. Do you agree with high fence hunting or do you or is it is hunting even a fair word for it? I didn't get any answer. What is it? So access deer were brought to Hawaiian islands from India in late 1867 as a gift to king. I can't pronounce this name. That's true. King. Yeah. But the King of Hawaii released on Malakaha something like that in the name of it. Yeah, Malakaha. In 1868. So 1868. So 150 years roughly. Yeah. 160. That there's been not only is there access deer but there's sheep, muflan sheep and then there's. Not at all. In the night. That's all that's on there, isn't it? No. There's sheep and goats there. Where the heck were they at? I never saw one. There was public. There was public. There was public. There was public. Yeah. We were there. See, I thought that was just mainland. Like on their main islands. Wow. I didn't know that. Okay. Let's go back to region real quick. Okay. North America is I guess first off what constitutes is high fence hunting. Like can there be high fences around three sides and one side open and that's considered free range or is that considered high fence? To me that's not high fence. That's not high fence. They can get out. What's not even do? What's the point of that? Well, there's a, there's some, I know people personally that have eight and ten foot fences to keep their neighbors, try to keep deer from going to their neighbors. I've seen a deer jump a eight foot fence before. Well, I don't think they're doing it a lot. I don't think they prefer to do it. But I'm not, that's, I don't, unless you got it. Okay, ten foot fence. Whatever the fun fence. What are they unless it's actually closed in where they cannot get in or out is that's, that would be what's classified as a high fence. If it's controlling where they're able to go. All four sides. Yeah. I disagree. I don't know that it's high fence hunting, but I don't, I think it's a form of cheating. Worse than to your difference. Well, that's also the same thing as I just had a landowner tell him that he wants to put a certain kind of fence along the, along his borders that deer won't try to go through. And then he wants to open up one area. So he knows that they'll only come through one area so he can hunt them easier. Yeah. Like that, I don't agree with the how tall is the fence. I don't know. He's telling me about it, but it made sense unless they really wanted to like try pretty hard to jump it. Because I think it's wider than it is tall. Well, how would that help you? Because they can't jump the whole, they can't just jump as far as they like double row it or something. I don't know what he's going to do. Okay. But whatever it is, he's isolating them to one area. I don't understand. If you're employing a fence that an animal cannot get through, meaning it's not a barbed wire fence that they can go underneath or they can easily jump over, then if we're trying to in capture the animal, then I don't agree with it. I mean, because I will say this, I hunt fences as far as normal, normal barbed wire fence for five strand fence. And I love the fact that if I can tie two strands of that fence either at the bottom or up at the top to make a place where they can easily jump over or they can go underneath it, I think it's a great tool to have in my toolbox that makes the deer want to cross in a certain area if the fence is really good. But they could still go over anywhere else. This is my point. I'm just trying to help them to find this location. Trying to help them get through there so you can shoot them easier. Yes. Absolutely. Trying to help. Well, let's just go to the first one then. But okay, because the other one that I haven't personally seen it, but I know that it did take place is in Montana when those guys started flying into the public ground. The landowner, I don't know if it was one landowner or several land owners went in and put up a high fence so that the elk would not leave his farm or leave his ranch and go up into the public ground and didn't. I don't agree with that. Yeah, I don't agree with that either. So there's things like this? So why would that be okay to do that? I would not have your neighbors. Here's what I was going to say is here's what I think that you got to clarify because a high fence in general hunting in a high fence would be classified as an area where animals cannot get in or out and it's a controlled environment somewhat depending on how big it is. I think just but I can't get in or out period. I don't agree either way with say that. What I just said that landowner was telling me about. I don't agree with that. I honestly don't agree with what he's saying with tying the strands together because it's not natural. It's not you're affecting the way that they're going somewhere with unnatural human-made things. Now granted that could go in a food plot. People are saying that that's not right either but I wouldn't agree with that because you're actually genuinely growing something. But my point is that that's two different arguments. A high fence and if they're using high fences and say that to keep them out of the public areas or the public land, I don't agree with that either. I think that's unfair. Because just because you like your elk doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to go to the public land and be killed. And if you look at any of the national parks too for that instance, they don't have high fences around the national parks and a lot of those animals know where the boundaries are because the moment they step across the other side, they are hunted and they can be killed there and they understand where to stay in the area without a fence. Well I think let's just talk about the first one that we all agree on. A high fence, a high fence deer hunting ranch that is. Some places. 1,500 acres or something like that and they have 12 foot fences that no deer is. Animals that are in there, they put in or they bred them inside there, they can't get out, they know the number of animals within that area. I don't care about it at all either. I don't know if it's a fence that does not allow them to get out period. I don't think that that is hunting. I agree. I think it's more. Killing. Do I think that people should be allowed to do it? Sure, I don't really care if somebody does that or not. However, I do think that if you're going to go and shoot a 210 inch deer in a high fence area that you shouldn't go out and try and claim that it was a free range deer or not make it clear that it wasn't a free range deer. I also think though that it's really interesting because I think maybe I'm not the only one. I have seen some high fence deer where they look legit, like they look like a free range deer, but for the most part, I can tell when a deer is high fence because one, their antlers just are whack. They'll have so much crap and they're always so white and they have just pieces of velvet left all the time in certain chunks of their antlers. It's pretty obvious when a deer is high fence or he's 240 inches and he looks like he's 160 pounds because that's their two-year-olds. I don't think that that is hunting because there's too many controlled elements. They can't go anywhere. I 100% agree in that it's not hunting, it's just killing. I would add to that that I do believe that when people do put a picture out there because they went, because I would say the same, at least I don't care if someone else wants to do it. Just don't claim that you're hunting. Don't put it on the internet and claim that you would say, well, I didn't say that I was hunting it and I didn't say anything. That has been the problem. That is why people are so, what's the word I'm looking for? That everyone is so worried that someone is lying to them is because people have posted pictures without saying that and leading them on to believe that this was a free-range deer killed in wherever, whether it's Tennessee or Texas or Iowa. It's just not right. There's nothing about it, it doesn't matter whether it's a 10-acre piece of ground or whether it's a 200-acre piece of ground or 2,000 acres because somewhere within that, you can funnel those deer. You're going to be able to know they can't get past this corner. You also, you've eliminated all outside elements. You don't have, you're not going to hit by cars, you're not going to kill by neighbors. Eventually, even though it's 2,000 acres, yeah, I agree, there could be, one deer could be in a lot of places on 2,000 acres, but there's probably 15-200-inch deer because there's nothing that is threatening them. I guess maybe they get coyotes and stuff in there, but probably not enough to cause serious problems, obviously. But I think most people, the reason they all scream high fence, I think it's just jealousy. I don't think it's, do they think everything is high fence? I think they're just jealous that they haven't killed a deer like that. Whether that uneducated. Well, I don't know. I just know that there's been a whole lot of them that have gone out there that weren't right. How many? They were, they were not killed. Fair chase. And yet they don't say anything. I can think of one right here in Iowa that it had nothing to do really with this scenario, but I know that when they put the picture out there, they led people to believe that the deer was killed with a bow and arrow and the deer was killed with a crossbow. And so they'd left it like that. And by doing that, it brought a lot of controversy to it and that you didn't kill this the way that you said this is not the new archery record and things like that, that people were claiming that it could be. And it was all because it was misleading, not misleading in anything they said misleading in what they didn't say. Right. Yeah, that's not a matter though. Do you have to get a license for, like, do they have to buy licenses if you're going to hunt on an high fence? I don't know that. I think all of them do, no. I think it depends on the state. My question, I'd say, does it matter? In the event of something like that, if you're just going to post a deer and say, here's my deer, whatever, great, what does it matter that they're, if you're not claiming it to be something that it's like an archery world record, they're not claiming that or saying that that's what it is, what's it matter if he clarifies or not, what he killed it with? I think the way that, and I don't have it in front of me to know exactly how it was put out there, but when I saw it, it was something to the effect that this could be a new archery record, state record or something like that. Well, in that case, when someone's... When someone's... When someone says that and it's, I guess, to clarify, I don't consider a crossbow archery. No. Okay, so crossbows are legal and people who want to use them are fine. I may end up having to use one someday. I'm having shoulder issues, but I wouldn't do it during... I still wouldn't claim that I killed this, that it was an archery kill. I would make sure someone knew I killed this with a crossbow. Well, I'm pretty sure they categorize them separately. In most states, not... There's a lot of states that don't... It's me, record books. Oh, the record books may. Separate those. I would be curious to begin with if tags and things, like if you even have to go get a tag for a high fence or if the state just considers that completely separate because it's not a... Well, a lot of it's private. I know. Yeah, but you had a private ground, you had to go buy a license and a tag. No, it's private. It's private owned, private operated. It's not like a private piece of ground because they own the deer. A lot of them, they bought the deer and put them in there. Yeah, I would just be curious to see how that works. I'm pretty sure you can go buy a tag and hunt them whenever you want. And I wouldn't say that's all of them, but I'm pretty sure because if you think about it, why would they have to follow any sort of mandated season? I'm telling you, it's by state. It's not a blanket or anything. Because I do know that I can't remember what number it is, Bill, that was passed when we first moved to Montana that eliminated any more or any new high fence operations because there were several of them. And they'd had lots of incidents and the other thing was they felt like that is where CWD started in the elk population. One in particular was Phillipsburg, Phillipsburg, Montana. If you go back and look, that's what they contributed. They ended up going in and killing like two to three hundred of this guy's, his elk because they felt like they were all infected. Right. Okay. So my point would be is that there what they did to try to take precautions is they made double fence that they had to have one fence and then they had to have another one six feet away because that way the animals could not come in contact with a wild animal. We used to hunt near one that was a high fence operation. We were on the outside of it. I don't know if you remember that. Yeah, I do. So how were they saying it was being spread like that elk could go up to each other? Absolutely. Yeah, because they can get it, they can touch it with air more. They lick each other and all sorts of crap in their animal. Well, I can tell you now that the guy that owned that high fence operation, I don't know if you recall this or not, but he would sit on top of a chicken coop. And when his cows were in heat inside his field, bulls were walking up and down the fence. And this guy had all kinds of entries in Pope and Young. Oh, how about he was killing tanks? Yeah, I mean, and it was like, okay. So is that? How is that fair game or not? That's not fair game. It may be legal. In my opinion, I feel like that's ting near baiting. It's worse than baiting. Well, they're still free range. I mean, they're chicks are not. Their chicks are stuck inside. Yeah, but aren't you talking about he's shooting them on the outside? He was shooting them outside out. Just to be clear, I don't agree with it. He was controlled by his packer. But yeah, but in all technicalities, he was shooting the wild elk that would come to the fence for his pinned up that is terrible. Yeah, now I will give him a hundred percent credit for creative and but should those men, I mean, so this guy's in the record books. I don't know his name. If I did, I probably wouldn't use it because I don't I don't have enough knowledge to be speaking unless he was here because I disagree with him. But is that fair that that guy is in the record books multiple times off of what he was doing? I don't know who's to say. I mean, I don't know where you get a kit. I think that when you start getting to the point of it's a world record or a state record or something like that, then I think that it should be discussed because otherwise if if it's a 370 bull and somebody else killed a 370 bull, it doesn't knock theirs out of the because he hit I guess is what I'm trying to say is that by whatever he killed and where it sits in the book, it doesn't remove somebody else from the book. Correct. Now, it may be ranked higher than theirs, but it doesn't mean that they don't qualify anymore. Now, I do think if you get start talking world record or top 10 something like that, which I think that's probably why they do those panel scoreings and they make you do the entry affidavit and all that or I know it is is so that they can validate things like that. That one would probably I don't know that that would pass. Yeah, I was going to say I'd be willing to bet that there's no rule saying against that, but it would probably be a pretty big discussion and probably create a new rule. I would think that's it. There's so many great areas in this discussion. There's a lot of hard hard lines that are yes, I believe that Montana has a law that talks about using a live. It's like using a live decoy and I don't think you can and I think you could qualify what he was doing was a live decoy. How would you use a live decoy in the first place like raise a deer or something and? Yeah, or a turkey. I mean, if you had a turkey of live turkey and when you're like predators and stuff like that, imagine they probably came up with that because somebody did it. That's how a lot of laws are a goat. I'm wanting to put a goat in our yard when we lived in white and old me. Not fair hunting. I understand that, but what do you think that would have done? Every predator in the world would have been in our yard trying to eat that goat. No, they wouldn't try it. They would have. Right. And so if people could do that, then you would have grizzly bears and wolves and mountain lines. Yeah. Okay. So we're off topic. I think where we're having to go with this is we all agree that if it's high fence on all four sides, we don't really believe that it's fair chase hunting in any way. Okay. The one quite regardless of size is if it was two miles, two miles, either way. That's the only thing that I was questioning in my head because either way I don't necessarily agree with it. But what I'm relating to again, which I said in the beginning was you take the access deer. They're free range, but they really can't go anywhere. And I know for a fact that there's high fences that are the same size as that island that have the same amount of square yards or whatever you want or acres in it that I would say it's a high fence. I'm not going to do it. It's not granted. I don't know if I would love to kill an access deer. I don't know if I'd want to go to the Le Nye to kill an access deer for that reason, but I don't see it to me. That's a gray area because it's not like they are literally high-fenced in and put there for a reason. But at the same time, they can't go anywhere still. I can tell you nine miles by four miles and the train where we were hunting them and then it what it went into, they got plenty of places to get away. I mean, there was these animals could. Is that what you're going off of? Yeah, but you could. Because you'd go off 2,500 acres and a deer is getting plenty of room to get away. I would absolutely shoot one in Le Nye again. No problem. However, I do think that it could be somewhat compared to maybe that's kind of what hunting high fences like because we saw hundreds of deer, hundreds of them. And there's no natural predators. That's why they need people to shoot the deer because the guy that, it was a DNR officer or whatever they call it over there in Hawaii that took us and they have to shoot them strictly for the purpose. Like all he does all day is drive around and shoot turkeys and access deer because there's no population control outside of humans. So outside of humans for people's reference that nine miles by five miles would be 28,000. 14. Oh, nine by 14. Oh, yes, that's going to be. It's quite a I when I saw 28,000 come up there, I was like, no, it's bigger than that. So it's 80,640 acres. Okay. So that's the entire island. Yeah. And it's like a ranch, big ranch, depending on where you're at. But it was big enough that you could hunt on big, big ranch. Someone's property, they had different, I mean, there was public land there, you know. But I mean, I guess if you want to take an island and say, then you go to the big island and it's much bigger. I don't know what its size is. But it's a huge high fence. You know, that. Lots I'm saying about technically America would be a whole entire high fence because it's what everything would be. So it gets to be. No, it's relative. It's a relative to finish the wall. Here it is in progress. And we don't even try to keep Canadians out. So, but I guess the reason why I say size is because I don't know, you said that there's a fence that you believe that there are ranches in North America with white tail deer on them that are the same size as what this island is. I don't know who that is that owns 80,000 that's fenced in. I'm not saying there isn't. I know Texas has some big ranches. And I think some of those are fenced. Texas has quite a few 20,000 acre ones. What's the, the nail? Nails not high fence. Oh, what's there's, there's a really, no, the nails where all the pretty most guys elk hunt sometimes or something, isn't it? I don't know. No, no nails in Texas. But it's not, it's free range. It's not a high fence. There's a big named one that came ranch maybe. I don't know if that's high fence or not. I wanted to say that there's one down there that's like, I could have sworn it was like 100,000 acres. I think the problem for me is I think that if you can just look at the difference between you can have an 80,000 acre ranch in Texas. And if they kill one 200 inch deer or 180 inch deer on that or something, they've done really, really well. And then you can have an 80,000 acre high fence ranch in Texas and they're killing 230, 240 inch deer on a consistent basis. That's where to me you lose, obviously there's an element there, which is the high fence that allows the hunting to be beyond what free range hunting is. And that's where I have an issue with it. I think that when you start going over to other countries, such as Africa, I don't know enough. I don't, I've never been to Africa. I don't have enough information. Something from the guys that I've talked to that have been in Africa, that one dude that we talked to was super informative. Alec? No, the guy from Africa that had all the crazy stories. I just know. No, no, no, no. No. Remember it? The Vegas NFR show. Yeah. But I feel like aren't those, don't they call them consortiums or something? They do. And they're like hundreds of thousands of acres, right? But it's a different reason why they're, they're, they're not fencing to keep the animals in. They're fencing to keep the poachers out. Right. Because otherwise they'll, they'll, they will kill them. They're already still sneaking in and shooting them. The only reason that they'll tell you, and I don't, I haven't hunted over there. I just have enough people that I've talked to that have hunted there. I've read it. I've watched some stuff on it. And the only way that we still have a rhino, a black rhino is because of high fences. That's the only way they were able to protect them because they were down to so few. And people that have paid money to, you know, control them. New Zealand's another one though, where they, they same thing. They have huge high fences. I don't know enough about those to, to comment on whether I don't know if all of, if some of it is free range or some of it's not, but I know that a lot of it is not. Well, New Zealand's an island. Yeah, exactly. But how big is that one? Yeah, but it's humongous. Yeah. That's the point of the skepticism. There's so many different things like, because at the same, you could say a high fence isn't fair chase hunting because it's a high fence. They can't go anywhere. But at the same time, you could also say that the high fence and the purpose of it allows that whatever animal is in there to grow to much larger sizes because they don't have to deal with natural stresses and other things that are higher than them on the food chain. And things that would drive them to get injured or this or that. And you could control all those things. That could be a whole other, I guess, the way you could look at high fences is that way. And then if you look at like an island, okay, it's not, it's still, they still have all the natural animals that could still hunt them or be higher than them on the food chain or it's not controlled environment just because they can't go anywhere. So it could be different. Is there, is there quote unquote free range hunting in Africa? Or is it literally all? I think there is large high fences. I don't think many Americans do it because I think you're taking your life in your own hands as well. And I think that they've slaughtered just about everything. What do you mean they don't have any pH's? I don't know. I mean, I don't know how they can, they can't control anything there. So you could have someone come in and raid your camp and things like that. So anyhow, there's a couple of people I'm thinking of that we should try, if we wanted to talk specifically about that subject, that we could have come on as yes, you know, because I don't want to comment on things that I don't know enough about. Well, because I would be curious, you know, in that instance, I could understand that completely. I mean, if there's that rampant of a problem that to me that it's not really an option. You don't really have choice. Absolutely. And then I guess the next thing though, I'd wonder though, is like New Zealand, that I don't think they're doing that to keep poachers out. I think, I don't even know if there's any regulations over New Zealand. So I think it's kind of all- What are they all sensing for? Probably as a business to sell hunts. Yeah, mainly for red stags. Because I do think that's not an idiot. I think there is some free range in New Zealand. Yeah, it's Argentina's another big red stags that I know. They're a lot smaller. But they, and they have some free range. That's where you, that's where they're a lot smaller. Right. So I wouldn't care to go hunt one of these red stags if it's going to be in a high fence. I agree. I guess, I think there's got to be some free range in New Zealand because I don't think it's all high fence. No, I think there's some. But I definitely think that- All these big ones that you see, I think, are pretty much high fence. Yeah, I think that any of those, the ones that you, like the guys are killing 350 inch or bigger, they're paying by the, how big that animal is. You know, whether it's a gold, silver, and then it goes up platinum and that kind of thing. So- I wonder about the, what is it going to make your car and stuff? No, they're free range. I would think that'd be really hard. It'd not be free range. I mean, they may have some places that they have fences on some sides, but I don't see how- It's like I just owns the mountains and stuff. I don't know. But at the same time, I mean, when we're talking about this, I mean, when a guy starts digging deep into some of this stuff, is it fair chase that someone drops you off on top of a mountain with a helicopter? You know, I personally think that it is, if they're dropping me, I mean, it's just a different means for me getting there. Well, I also think, so let's take this into consideration. If I- Let's just take the average guy and I think I'd fall in that category, so I can go over to New Zealand, which is- I mean, crap, what's a plane take on a Costco to New Zealand? It's got to be a couple grand. 50, I've done say $1,500 or $2,000, something like that. Oh, I bet it's more than that. Might be. But let's just say that it's- Let's just say it is two grand, two, three grand. So I'm going to go on this hunt. I'm going to go all the way to New Zealand and I can either take the money that I've worked really hard for and know that I'm going to be able to at least kill a decent stag or have a shot at one and have a cool experience or possibly go over there and tromper around with no idea what I'm doing for seven days and then fly back and I spent, you know, all the money that I have for the next four or five years to go on a hunt with nothing to show for it. Not that it's all about killing something, but if I don't even get to have any experiences with a stag and get to hear one roar or get to see how they behave and what they act like and what they do, I might probably be way more likely to go in offense. $2,600 right now. Okay. That's round trip. Yeah. Okay. So you're in bare minimum $2,600 in and then who I don't even know if you can go hunt over there without a guide or anything. We need somebody else that knows more about New Zealand, but you got to. I think the premise. I mean, I was going to say so far from what I've Googled about it, I have pulled up on this whole entire thing. I've seen about five or six different outfitters that outfit free range red stack. Okay. How much are they? Nick says he's got five or six outfitters that free range needs to eat. And don't tell us the names because if they want a plug, then they're going to have to hook us over the hunt. Okay. Nick still look. Nick still look. He's going to get some. I don't think the premise is necessarily knowing the lands or not. I think it's a matter of his high fencing. Yeah. But let's just take. Okay. So let's just take you've got 12 grand. Okay. You've saved up this $12,000 for five years. Okay. And you can fly all the way over New Zealand and you're guaranteed to kill a 320 inch red stack on a 15,000 acre high fence ranch or you can go free range where they tell you you got a 5050 shot at even, let's just say a 5050 shot at killing a 220 bull and we may not even see one or stag, whatever they call them. There's a good chance of their migrating or whatever they are doing that we may not even see one and you're going to spend $12,000 either way. You don't think you might be swayed at all to think about. First off, that's unrealistic in the fact of I'm not going to, you're not going to spend $12,000 on two completely different types of hunts. It's going to be different. 8,000. I mean, I'd pay the 8,000 and I'd go be hunting free range. I'm not going to pay. It's not hunting. If you're going to sit there and tell me you can guarantee a kill, it's not hunting. I'm not saying guaranteed to kill, but at least have opportunities to see them, to see what they're doing to. That's great. I'll pay them for a two or some time. But if I'm going to go hunt them, I'm going to go hunt somewhere where they have just as much of a chance as I do. So when I'm going over there, if I've got a 50-50 chance, there's some states that you guys have hunted for elk that are somewhere similar to that. Granted, it's not to the amount of money to go hunt. That's all I'm looking at is that I'm talking that it's the percentage of you going to kill one, are you willing to pay a couple grand to go somewhere where you have a less than 50% chance of killing one? All I'm saying is from an elk hunting perspective, because that's exactly where I'm coming from with this, is I have been on enough elk hunts where you walk around for 10 days and you don't see shit, that if I went on the hunt in New Zealand and spent all that money get over there and all that time and everything and walked my happy ass around for 10 days and didn't see anything and came back, I'd be frickin' bummed. Because I just know what it is like from an elk standpoint of working your butt off, daylight to dark and you don't see anything. One thing, it doesn't really hurt you at all fiscally, but it's another when you're going across the world to go do it. That's part of it. Whether it's in the US or across the country, across the world, however you look at it, if you're paying money to go somewhere that's not guaranteed, you're paying, you know, dang, wow, there's a chance that you're not going to get a shot at whatever animal that is. Yeah, okay. But this is what I'm saying. This is what I'm saying. This is what, why are you going to New Zealand? Why would you go to New Zealand? First off, to even have the opportunity to hunt New Zealand. So an experience. Yep. Okay. So what are you hoping to get from that experience? I think that I would be extremely happy to go be freaking walking around in a mountains in New Zealand and be able to sit there and say, holy crap, I'm hunting New Zealand in hopes that I see a red stag. I think I think as long as I could see them, I'm not going to be that pissed about it because I know that it's hunting. Yeah. Well, I think that's all it comes down to as far as in something like that is what do you place the value in as far as from an experience standpoint. I would place the value in the fact that I'm getting a fly across the country to go hunt. That's what I'd place it in. You can hunt either way. All right. That's my point. Is that? And I fall, because I understand both sides because to answer honestly, I would have to say that I agree with Warren. However, when I flip that, I agree with Easton. And what I mean by that is then that's saying, if we're saying that it's okay because we're spending next amount of dollars and we're going over there because I want to have that experience of hearing one roar and seeing one. Now granted, I don't want to hunt a place where the fence, it's a small little confinement or whatever. I want it to be something that I don't ever know where the fence is or anything like that. I'm inclined to say I would go do that because I've thought about hunting redstags before, which puts me in the same category as you. However, when you mentioned all the things you just talked about, what if a guy is coming from another country to hunt here, then we're saying that and he wants to hunt a white-tailed deer, chances are that he may or may not see one if he goes to hunt with someone in a certain place, but he goes somewhere else and he pays, he's going to get a shot at a big one. Well, that's where I think. So to me, this is where it comes down to the information, right? Because if I had somebody that was coming from New Zealand or wherever and they wanted to come kill a white-tailed deer, right? They want to kill, or they at least want to get to see deer and get to see the rut and see deer doing their thing. When I would be telling them, I would not tell a guy, come over here with five days, hunt Monday through Friday, and you should be good. I would be trying two weeks and I can tell you you're going to get to see all kinds of stuff and we should be able to get you on some deer. I would not want somebody to come travel across. I'll tell you right now when our buddy Brett came out this year and I was his guide, if you want to call it that, for the week. That was way more stressful to me than hunting for Magnum because he's from New York and this is the only time he gets a tag in five years. I wanted him to have a good experience. I wanted him to get to see deer doing their thing. I wanted him to get to see him rutting for bucks chasing does. That to me was way more stressful than myself because I knew I wasn't worried about me, but I wanted him to get that experience. Even if we didn't get a shot, I just wanted him to have get to see some good bucks and get to see some deer doing what they were supposed to. I went and went and said, I'm going to get to see him. I was like, oh no. However, if I had my choice, if I could go to New Zealand and kill an average bull or even like a, are they stags? They're stags. Red stags. Okay. What do they call the cows? Hines. Hines? H-I-N-E-S. Okay. If I can kill a below average stag, they can tell me there's lots of stags and you're going to get to hear them roar and see them do the thing and I can kill a below average one on free range. Before I can go and kill a giant one on an offense, I'd prefer to go free range as well. But if it means that I'm sacrificing the potential to have that experience at all, I don't have the cash to just be following the New Zealand all the time. And so I want to make sure that I get as much experience as I can for that time and money that I take to go over there. So if anyone out there is listening that owns an operation in New Zealand or Australia or wherever that you could offer a free range hunt for red stag, please contact us. Or Argentina. We're not, you know- We're not picky. We're not picky. We'll go either way. But or I guess any point out there that has more information on it, that's gone and done it. You know, that was, I have to admit, when I was started, when I first was talking about going on this oryx hunt, that was a concern of mine when they're telling me they're inside the missile range. Because I'm thinking when they're telling me that, you know, it's a missile range, I'm thinking big fence with Constantine wire over the top and nothing can get out. We get down there. I've seen farmer's fences here that are as good as that. It was not bad at all. I'm having a hard time settling with your opinion here. I really am. Well, solely for the fact that we don't agree with high fence hunts, but you're okay with paying for a high fence hunt if it means you're going to get a better experience. I can go pay in Texas to go kill a 240 inch deer and experience every bit of the rut and guarantee it. That's what I'm telling you. But I would never do that. I would never drop my morals to go get the experience for it. If I can't get the experience for it in the fair chase in the correct way, the ethical way, then I'm not going to get the experience. Maybe I would go say, hey, can I go travel there and find somewhere where I can just observe it? Sure. What's that matter? I'm not going to say that I don't agree with high fences and then say it's okay somewhere else. Well, I think one, there's two things there. It's correct and ethical to you. That's an opinion. You can't. I don't agree with high fence hunting in North America. I've already stated that. That doesn't mean that I'm right. It's just my opinion. To me, I think you have to really ask yourself the hard question. If I'm going to go to New Zealand and I'm taking what to you is a notable amount of money, that's the first question. Anything to get over there would be no one. If 10 grand isn't that big of a deal, then that's not notable enough amount of money. To me, 10 grand is a pretty notable amount of money. Let's just say that that's a notable amount of money. If I know I'm going to spend $10,000 and I go over there, this is where I need information. I don't know enough to be able to make this decision. If I have two decisions, I have one where I just have a chance at possibly getting to experience things, experience the cool things that I want to see them roaring and doing everything that they're supposed to do. I just have a chance at that. Or this one, I have an 80% chance at that. I'm spending maybe a little bit more money. I think that if I went with one where I just barely, it was just a hope that I might get to see something and nothing happened. I know that on the flight back, I would be fricking upset. Not mad necessarily, but I just wasted 10 grand on four. Did it waste 10 grand? In my mind, I did because I went over there for an experience. This is where my opinion is just different from yours. I went over there not to go to New Zealand. Sure, I want to go going to New Zealand would be absolutely cool and getting to see New Zealand. But I'm going to New Zealand for that is one part. The other part is I want to experience stacks. I want to experience a red stack and what they do and getting to see that animal and its natural form and do what they do. That is the other part that I'm wanting to go with. How much is that of a natural form though if they're high-fenced? If it's a big enough fence, I think it's still natural. I think that your deer is still acting normal in a fence. So your answer though is that if the high fence is big enough, then it's not high-fenced. No, I'm saying I'm not going to go waste money. To me it's wasting money if I'm taking a huge gamble and I'm not going to get to experience cool things. I would rather have a better chance of getting to experience the things that I want to with my money than just not having a chance. That's where I would say a logical human would not be going to New Zealand if they had $10,000 was all they could come up and scrape up to be able to go. It's going to be a matter of, okay, I can spend $10,000 on a chance or spend $10,000 on something I don't necessarily agree with that much but it's going to give me the experience. Who said I don't agree with that? That's what I'm telling you is if I can't go anywhere else in Hunter Red Stag. You're saying two different things. No, I'm saying if I can't go anywhere else in Hunter Red Stag, okay, that's the first thing. Yeah. This is partly where the problem is of information. Okay, I don't have enough. If you told me that I can't go, let's just take North America, okay, and whitetails like they are in Iowa is off the map. That's not an opera. That's not how it works. You can either go and pay a high fence, okay, you can spend $10,000 and you can go to a high fence where you're not going to see the fence and the hunting is like Iowa, okay? Not ridiculous, 280 inch deer but it's just like Iowa. Or I can take that same amount of money and I can go to Whitefish, Montana and I can hunt whitefish and hope to see a 40 inch deer over a seven day period. Yeah, I'm not spending on either. I'm going to the high fence every day of the week. Because that shows you have a weak moral compass when it comes to that. No, it's a frame of reference. It's not though because if you're not actually looking that realistically before you even answering, you're not actually thinking about. Just flat out won't go. If I don't agree with it, I'm not going. I'm not going to put myself in a situation. If I don't have the money to go and say, hey, I'm going to go across the world and have a chance of not killing something because that's what hunting is. That's not strictly about that. It's not strictly about the killing aspect. Getting the experience as well. If I don't have the money to have the chance of not seeing them, then I'm not going to go. I'm not going to spend the money and then just fracture the part of my morals where I say I don't agree with this. But I don't have the money to do it twice or do it again. So I'm going to go to something I don't agree with. Okay, so let me ask you this. Are you ever going to go to Africa? I don't know. I don't have the bug to do it. And to be honest, after he said that it's all high-fenced, I was under the impression and maybe this is just me being an idiot that is one of the most wild places you could go hunt. I didn't think that all of it's high-fenced. Even though they have to to keep poachers out. It depends. I haven't thought of it that much. I genuinely don't like the feeling of even if I can't see it feeling like there's a fence around me still. No matter how big it is. Well there I think that you would be dealing with something bigger than even the island that we're talking about. Over 100,000 acres and when you were talking about all the elements that they don't have to deal with, you know that there's no other way. They have all the predators. Everything is there. I mean, whatever is there that's outside is inside. Matter of fact, there's more inside than there is outside because of the poaching. So in my opinion, I guess it's totally, it is very relevant to whatever. Yeah, I mean, or it is. What you're saying is not relevant. You're saying that there isn't, that it's very black and white. That if there is a fence, no matter the size, whatever the situation, you're not hunting it. That's what I'm trying to say is I do think that it can be somewhat relative. And I really think that if you had a certain instance where you went and did something like that, that you probably would think it's relative to just going off of your white tail. I do think it's relative but think about it again though. We just asked the question then. What is a high fence? Yeah, but is it ethical or not? And to go all the way back to that. Okay, but one of the things though that we, that I think where our opinion, and you said it a minute ago in North America, you don't agree with a high fence operation or hunting in a high fence. Is that hunting not really? My point is is that I wonder if there's someone who lives in New Zealand that would say the same about New Zealand. They say that anyone that comes over, why would you anyone, all these guys are paying to come hunt this high fence. We don't have enough information to tell me that. That's what I'm saying. This is strictly, I don't know enough about it. But now like if you told me that you can know, if you go to America and 85% of it is all high fence or the other option is that you can go free range and the hunting is awful. I probably would go high fence because it's about what's relative to what the information is that you have. See, I just, I won't go. I just don't. Okay, so that's just saying then, let's just say that you really want to go to Africa. You want to experience seeing lions roar and leopards chase gazelles and see a giraffe and hippo and everything else. The more I'm starting to think about it. And you're saying that you'll never ever want to go do that because strictly because they have to put up fences because there's such shitty people out there that want to kill everything with ivory that there's no other option. I don't know. I would very strongly consider if I want to experience it that bad, I'll go experience it just to see it or film one of you to do it. So you do that? Let's just, like for instance, a red stag is on my bucket list. I would love to do that. In New Zealand is where I would really like to do it. I 100% will not go if it's in a high fence. So let me ask you, let me ask you this. Let's just say that America, everything was high fence to keep poachers out. Would you just give up, honey? I don't think I would have ever gotten into it in the first place. I'm high fence hunting, that ain't right. It's not right. In my opinion, it's not right. Okay. I think that you're just digging in because I think you still... No, I'm not because why would I have started hunting if it wasn't ever a fair chaser challenge? Okay. If you lived in America and the whole thing's high fence because you have to keep poachers out because they're killing every deer they can to sell the antlers for whatever. Are you... Sorry, everybody. Are you going to continue to hunt? Are you just going on photosafaris? Well, as of right now where I stand today, I probably would be... I mean, I love hunting and so I think I would be hunting. But I guess I also wonder... I still think there would be a certain moral compass that I wouldn't like want to... I don't want to hunt something where I feel like the fence is having an effect on the honey. Absolutely. I don't know where it wouldn't have... And I guess if I was posed with not being able to hunt, I don't know. That's a hard one to trust. I don't know how to answer it either though if you're saying that from square one, from when I was a little baby, it's always been that... Right, we might not even... I might not have even ever picked up a bow to go hunt specifically because it's a high fence. You prayed... You prayed had been hunting your whole life and you didn't ever thought about it because it was normal to you. Depends on what he did when he was a baby when it got started. Yeah. We just said he had been hunting. No, now if it was like that. Yeah, I think that... I think that... Same, like I said before, I think that you have to have a former reference. Okay, well, I said at the beginning of this that we were starting a very controversial topic. We actually have... I'm hoping that someone will write in and give us their thoughts on... Because we're just talking about a few places. I mean, there's high fences in Canada where they have big bulls and stuff like that. So why are you... So that's a good question I think. Why are we okay with... I know why I'm comfortable in my opinion on a high fence in America opposed to New Zealand. Because I don't need... That's exactly the same reason for me. I can go be successful and have great experiences without having to do it. Right, and I think what you're saying is if you knew of the guy... If the Warren Holder of New Zealand was over somewhere, talked to you and said, you don't need to hunt a high fence to get the experience that you're talking about, you might not kill a 475 stag, but you would get the same experience. You would probably go home with that guy. Absolutely, for sure. But if the other alternative is I can't have the experience at all, I'm going to go... I'm going to have the experience. Now if it was something where it's like 400 acres or 500 acres, something like that, and a stag, no. Because that's, to me, that would be borderline petting zoo. What's a thousand acres? There eventually you're going to have to come over the line. I think to me it would probably be like 15,000 acres. Enough that I feel as though that that animal could pretty much move freely and I'd have to... Like I said before, I would need more information before I could make that decision. But I think if I try to put myself in a couple different positions, there's different ways that I would look at it. Yeah. Yeah. You good with that? I have no issue with that. I don't need the information to know what I agree with and what I don't agree with. At one point I do recall that New Zealand had a turkey issue and there was no tags. No, you just kill. There was that many of them. And I would love to go do that. What kind of turkeys did it have? I think there were Miriams. But they were out of control. There you go. We need to fly over there for $2,600 and shoot turkeys and be able to study what we could do for a stag hunt. There you go. I'm in. I'm going all the way over there to shoot turkey. I will. Because I won't shoot one. I'll shoot a... They just tell me they got a problem. I'll come shoot them all. That would be interesting. I wonder how they act over there. I don't know. I like a turkey. Dan, what are you doing? I think my dog is stuck. He's not stuck. What is he doing? Come here, Dan. All right. Did we cover this? Did there any part of this that we did not hit? Because again, I knew this was controversial, but I didn't know that I actually learned a few things myself here about myself. You got to really think about it. Yeah, you do. It's not just cut and dry that I'm not... Whether you agree with it or not, or whether I agree with you or you agree with me or not, there's so many gray areas in all sorts of different types of fair chase. What is fair chase? Yeah. That's where I think it all comes back to that... I don't know, because who can say that it is or isn't fair chase when you have 100,000 acres that's fenced in, or you have an island that you're hunting something who can say that that's fair chase or it's not. Well, you could look at New Zealand, I think. What's the reason they have a turkey problem? I don't know. No, I can tell you why. Maybe not as a punter. There's no predators. So does that eliminate a portion of fair chase because they don't have wolves and coyotes and lions and everything else killing stuff or not? Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I would love to be able to give you more of an understanding of that. So I think because that would be another question. If there's no predators there, how is there a stag and anything else there in the first place? They were probably introduced. But at the same time, why are they high fenced? I don't know why fenced them in. Because I bet you that now I'm wondering if they were introduced or somebody brought them in and made a hunting expert. He's like, look at New Zealand. It's gorgeous. And then I'm going to make this a business and bring people here to hunt it. And then the neighbor over to the south was like, man, Bill's pretty smart. And I'm going to do the same thing and I'm putting up a fence. They don't go over to bills. And then he starts charging Americans these ridiculous amounts. And we pay him. And then all the before I know it, the whole country's like, I'm getting in on this. We'll get back with some research on that one because I think a lot of those places, it is similar to a situation like Leni where an animal gets introduced as a gift from, because that used to be how you gift another country or you're giving them something. I'm just saying, here's a trillion dollars or here's a tank so you can go shoot your neighbor. No, all the 14 access deer that symbolizes this, this and this and this. How do we appreciate you? All I'm saying is, think of anywhere where the animals are native. There's nowhere where there's only big game species and no predators. Yeah. So how did the big game get there without the predators? That's what I'm saying. Or how did the predators get there? You got info? I'll record this according to real Kiwi hunting. Red Deer, Stag, were introduced to New Zealand by European settlers for sporting purpose between 1800 and 1900. Dang. Not guiding. So now is 1800 there now for sporting purpose. For themselves, they're not doing it as a business to start. It probably evolved into a business. For sporting purpose. But so now that begs a really good question. Is that even fair chase at all? Because now you're hunting an animal that ain't even native to there. Neither is the access deer. Well, neither is the access deer, ain't it? Yeah, but that's what it says. That was okay, I'd go do it again. Shoot them in Texas or anywhere else. They're not native there either. Yeah, I mean, so how does that fall in? Because you take all the animals that have been brought over that were in pens in Texas. That now I've gotten out and now they're all legal and they're free ranging. Would you shoot one or not? I ain't shooting it in the same accomplishment as if I were to go to where its country is and hunt it. So then you can't shoot one in New Zealand. What are you talking about? They're not native to there. That's what he said. A whitetail is not native to everywhere either, but they're everywhere now. They're here. They're here. Not all the different states you're hunting them in. Yes, they are. No, they're not. And a bear, a grizzly bear is not native. How can you put a red stag on your list? Okay. And then say that it's supposed to be from where it's from. And they were never even in that country in the first place. First off, nobody said besides yourself that it's from where it's from. That's where you got to hunt it. But you're saying that that's what my rule was. The other thing is if that's genuinely what you're going off of a fair chase is, then you go to Argentina where they are native. I need to look that up too. Argentina is a connected continent. It's going to be a freaking native. They've got to be native somewhere. What are you going to get? Or find where they are native. Okay, so this is a ordinary internet. So this is definitely real. So the two main habitats that regs are native to is found in Argentina near the Patagonia Mountains. So you go on under the Patagonia Mountains, which would be cheaper anyways. They're going because you don't got to fly across the notion to get there. No, but they might be charging you might have to go premium price because they have the wrong thing. Do you already know the price? He's going to say you have to go through the cartel. How much? Okay. So according to one outfit that I've been looking at, this is in Argentina. No, not in Argentina. I was going to say in New Zealand to start off with. And then I'll get to the Argentina. Okay. So according to this one outfit or based on your score that you want anywhere from 340 to 400, we'll just stop at 430. You're spending anywhere from $5,000 to $12,500. Just in a trophy. $5,000 to $12,000 from a 340 inch bull or stag. Just 400 something. Your average red stag. Okay. Anywhere between $3,500 to $14,000. In Argentina? That's okay. And that's a pin. They're in a pin. Yeah. They're able to tell you. Right. Yeah. Christel. Did you have Argentina? Okay. You may have to do that one later. Yeah, we may not have enough time. Now we're just trying to prove a point as all. No, I think now you just have to, if you're, it just goes back to his statement of what is ethical because or what counts as fair chase because now you're, there's a whole bunch of different elements there. I don't think that saying it's native is the issue saying it's on putting it on an island would be different. Like I don't know how big New Zealand is, but here's my only thing with that. What is? Is what? 400 and what? 103,000 square miles. So that's 103 times 641. Why are you doing 103,000 times 641? Because 641 is a section. It's a square mile. Oh, what would you do? That's a lot. That's way over my head. Yeah. That's like in the millions of acres. Well, so here's, here's the one thing I'm thinking about that. Let's just take a Yukon moose. Okay. So you can hunt, go hunt Yukon moose in the Yukon or you go and you can put Yukon moose in New Zealand. There's no predators. Nothing there that can kill them outside of people. Is it the same fair chase and hunting experience? They don't have the stress of wolves or grizzlies or. Not the same experience either way because you're going to have to deal with the wolves and the grizzly bears in Alaska and what's hunting you while you're freaking driving it. Yeah, that's what I'm saying is that's got to affect the sun. Experience is completely different. I don't know. All I can tell you is if you're driving down the road right now, you're probably like scratching your head on this one because I bet you I've been a lot of people. They got, yeah, I bet they do. And I bet you that they also after hearing this, you have a harder time defining what you wouldn't wouldn't do. Oh, it's really hard to define. I mean, it's not an easy just I won't hunt high fence. I won't hunt out of the country or I won't hunt an island or I won't. It's become because eventually it is where talk everything is the same thing. Everything is an island of some regard. You know what you could possibly do that would maybe be a I don't know how accurate you could do. But if you could if you just researched the amount of if this is if you guys cared this much about it or anybody else does, if you researched the average or not even average like the most an animal is capable of moving or like their area like a mountain line, for instance, what like 30 miles square to something like that. Okay. So as long as your area is bigger than that, maybe it doesn't matter. Or if you're a stag only goes because in certain places, Elko go long ways depending on their winter or wherever they're there they can live 60 miles during the time of year that they are. So wherever the area is, I guess that could be one way you could classify a little bit. I don't know. I think that'd be very difficult to do because some I wouldn't think a whitetail would travel four or five miles very consistently. And we have proven this year that we have one that likes to go four or five miles back and forth. So but the energy you'd have there is that would only work for ones that live in the center of it depending on the size of it. But they had gotten. Yeah. You got something else Nick? Okay. So Nick's feeding us information here. He's our Jamie. According to one site, the regular price for a red stag hunt in Argentina for one free range red stag five days of hunting six nights is $5,350. Is that American money? Yes. That's not that bad. No. So under $6,000 to go to Argentina and hunt a free range red stag. Not including your plane ticket and everything else you're going to have to. Right. Or shipping one back. That's a heck of a lot cheaper than New Zealand or what you got to pay the cartel to let you head down that room. That's true too. But so far that I've seen on those those aren't typically score based. Right. They can't be. Your average 5,000 is the same as what you would go. Why can't they be? Because they don't know. So when I would assume that when you go to one that is not free range, they're going to tell you there's someone with you that's saying you're about to shoot a 380 inch or 420 inch red stag. And so that you know this is what it's going to cost you when you pull the trigger, you know, what you do or whatever. But he just said that Argentina is not based off of size. Not all of that. I don't know if Argentina has both. Has free range and enclosures. I think Argentina would have to be somewhat. Some of them have to be free range. No, that's what he was just reading. That was a free range one. And therefore it's not based on how big it is because they're saying whatever you end up killing, you end up killing. And I would guarantee you that if there is free range and I think there is in New Zealand, it's the same thing. They're not probably. That's kind of what I was saying. I asked why because at a high fence they're going to give you a pretty dang exact score. They're going to be able to tell you a certain bracket and a free range. They're not going to be able to do that. Yes. That's what I was trying to get you to say. But you didn't say it. Well, I said it. No, you didn't. I just did. Okay. Yeah. They've confused me now. So if you're sitting out there in your truck right now driving down the road and you're going, man, I don't have a clue. These guys have confused me. I'm with you. So we're confused together. No, I think it is worth hashing out. I don't know whether there's there's not a just a definitive answer. And that's where the rule books and the record books and all that come together and collide in some way, way, shape, or form. Be curious if we could read some of that. Let's see what some of their parameters are for because it has to be black and white for a lot of them. There's not if I rules or like. Well, that's why there's different record books though. Like SCI, I think accepts anything. Yeah. Like our access to here, there's nothing in Pope and younger, Boone and Crockett for an access to here. Well, it's because it's all North American. They don't recognize them. Yeah. So anyhow, well, guys, and gals since hopefully Heather is still driving down the road holding the steering wheel and it is not run off the road. We appreciate you guys glad that you are here today talking about whether or not you should hunt a high fence or not. We started one way and did another and talked about everything in between. So let us know your thoughts and your podcast ideas. Yep. If you got podcast ideas, shoot them in. Keep the reviews coming. Keep passing this on to your buddies because it continues to grow and we love that. We love the fact that we know we're reaching more people. We love it when we're talking about things we know you want to hear about. So keep sending them. We'll keep talking about them. .