It's Impossible To Age Deer On The Hoof: The Results Are in the Age of Everyone of Our 2022 Bucks

Alright guys, welcome back to the raised hunting podcast. And if I look a little different, sound a little different, it's because I'm a little different. But today I just had a tooth extracted and these guys thought it would be funny to make me do a podcast while I'm under the influence of what the dentist has done just an hour ago. That actually pulled one out. Oh yeah. See? Oh, that's disgusting. That's a good hole in my head. Did you look at that? Kind of like he was just in the office. Oh, what are you going to do? Just leave it? Just leave it? Just leave a hole? No, I'm not going to leave a hole. What do you do? Yeah, let me see it now. You feel a little concrete. That's what Shane's here for. No, you put a new... They're going to give you a fake one. They don't do it the same day. Oh. He's a big ass hole. I think they got two. That's what I got. That's monkeys. It feels like half the side of my head is missing. Does it feel weird to lick it? I don't lick it. It hurts. It's all there. There's pain right now. Can you feel your lips? I can feel my lips. I was hoping that during the podcast he was going to... It's like a... Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You're like... I have to be careful drinking. Luckily, Grizzly makes these with like a drink, a sippy cup type thing. Cause I don't otherwise I'll be dribbling all over myself. You need that whether you have to do it. You're just going to watch this one. Cause he's going to... Alright. But let me get back to... We are going to... I'll introduce our special... We do have a couple special guests which you guys know who those two are. But then we have a true special guest and he's back. We're going to have to come up with a name for Shane. Something about the south cause he represents the south in an extremely good way. From Kentucky but he lives here in Iowa. So, anyhow, we'll get to him in just a second. Embadger 21 is one of the people that I want to thank you for taking the time and writing in a review for us. And we sure appreciate you guys doing that. And we want to make sure that you guys continue to do that cause those reviews boost the ratings which help not just boosting the ratings but it gets us to reach more people which gets more people interactive. So hopefully our topics and the things that we're doing get even better. So, Embadger 21, appreciate you. And I agree with you. He said God fearing good people that like to talk hunting. So, something to that extent. Alright. He's a non-slacker. So the rest of the list. I don't think the slackers go in reviews. I don't think the dentist gave you unless they're crappy then you can keep them. I don't know. I don't know what to tell you. I'm not commenting on the drugs cause I know what you guys will turn it into. So, we're going to go. But today's topic is. I told him the dentist didn't give him enough drugs. See. We turn it into. Just stop it. We're not going into. You guys will turn it into like what kind of drugs we've been growing and what we're selling and all this other stuff. We don't advertise that. I know. I don't think so. Okay. So, but today's topic is. We don't mention. Today's topic is. Dear ages. And we're bringing this topic up. I know this is kind of an odd time. It's not really an odd time. We just got all of a. We sent. What? 18 sets of teeth out to have them aged in the cement process. That means we're not reading the bottom of the jaw or they're not reading the bottom of the jaw. We're cutting into two of the front bottom front teeth and looking at the age of those and then they come back with an age and it's supposed to be in my opinion all the ones we sent in and that's why we got Shane here because he sent some in with us at the same time and we're going to talk about what because he's got the only discrepancy I think that we have on here anywhere and so we all want to judge that and see whether we disagree with Shane or whether we agree with Shane. But we've got some sheds sitting here. I know many of you that are listening to the podcast cannot see what we've got sitting here but we'll try to describe them the best we can and talk about the characteristics. Easton's got a set of sheds from the buck. He killed which. Oh, he killed a three year old. The worst part. See, you should have shot the three. That's what I was just going to say. I was like, you know what? I thought I was doing the right thing and I had the day before that three year old come by and we're like, yeah, we're going to let him go. Well, I killed the other one the next day. So unintentionally, he looks a lot different. But that kind of goes to prove how hard it is to see to understand their bodies. Man, well, everybody I've talked to you look at the video I am and he does not look like a young deer. I'm going to go out on a limb and I'm just going to say this and if this doesn't cause controversy, I don't know what is. It's impossible to age every deer. Yeah, I would agree with that. It's impossible to do it. Unless you know that. And unless you know them for their entire life, which even then you're going to miss the first year. What do you mean by age them? Well, from like seeing one that you've never known that's you can take all these charts and everything that everyone says. Look at their back. Look at their chest. Look at their facial features. Look at their hair color. Look at their antler size. Look at the body size, the dimension. You can do all that and I can show you a deer on here. Throw it out the freaking window because he wasn't anywhere. He doesn't fit anything. Yeah. Oh yeah. I mean, there's definitely deer that we know of for sure that. Do I know which one you're talking about? I'm talking about the deer that mom shot this year. Oh yeah. He comes back at five years old and that deer had no characteristics of a five year old deer. Junior also was one of the best as far as that deer was six years old. Ended up weighing 170 some pounds and you know they're telling you by six they should have a suede back and they're going to have a big gut and all that. Big foot in. You never had any of it ever. No. Like if you went off their chart you said this deer is three and then you just said next year he's still three. And you said next year he's still three. Yeah he didn't change. However I think antlers got there. So let's- So the only thing that would make all this an argument is if this is inaccurate. It can't be inaccurate. Well that's what Shane's here for. Well hold on. Let's still and Shane I'm not trying to take away your thunder. And when I say this I'm referring to some mental aging. They don't give you like a hundred percent they give you a grade on it correct. Right which is an A which tells you that it's between ninety five and ninety nine percent correct. Here's what I'm going to tell you is that we did a little test of our own. We sent two teeth from the same deer in under two different names. We tricked them. They came back the same age. Which is all that they could do which actually came back the same age of the deer that we thought was I was expecting him to come back three. But my point is we didn't know that deer and then he came back at five. Since these teeth have come back Warren has gone and pulled up video footage of the deer from trail cameras last year and he looked identical to what he did this year. Your Karen killed him. So it starts to lend to the okay yeah he what he could have been five could have been. To be fair though that's a pretty small subset. That's a very small subset. One year but we have a lot of other. I was going to say we have other years that we can go out here that we knew and the ones that we knew and so let's just dive into the oldest year on here. We knew this deer and he came back at eight years old. We called him KB. Well doesn't that say eight to nine. Yes. That says eight to nine because and I can't remember age range but his their official age that they gave him was an eight. Yeah and there's only a couple in there that look like a eight to nine right there. Yeah that's age range. Oh my gosh is that make you sick to see your deer is three or four. Yeah which one. Flat crab. Yeah. So that's the only thing I'm going to do anyway. Go back to KB and finish your point on that real quick before I get distracted. We knew we know KB at least we felt like we knew him well enough that we saw him when he was two years old and then I think we even went back and found trail cam photos of him from when we're like there he is at one. But he was two years old mom passes the deer's first deer as she's ever passed in her life and she agreed to do it because I convinced her I'm like I'm telling you he's two years old and a little tiny dad. We'll name him after you. That's what you told her. Yeah and we did. Okay I'll keep him around. So we named him KB for Karen's buck and we haven't been able to kill the deer and so we've watched him year after year we have lots of sheds from this deer and we had him pegged for eight years old. He came back eight years old. I thought we had him at seven. We're known him for total eight. We knew he was at least eight. Oh yeah we did video. We did video. I knew you were sanction. We put a video out on that on Instagram 90 long ago of two, three, four, five, six, seven and eight. Oh that's right. Yep. And I mean we have trail camera photos and everything following him until he was eight years old. The other ones on there would be more of a what we thought but we knew they were older deer. We'll get in Shane's deer. We owe Shane a ton because when you go back and look at what happened there. The only thing I think we should talk about two different graphs because they're different. Yeah what is yours? I had to print in mine out. So I've got the official one from Matt's and this is there's two. This is two I just put it on. I just copy and paste it to different piece paper. Did yours have the A H deal on there? Yeah. So I will preface this with some of these have. So there's an A rating which is the highest age. The highest A age is indicated the cementum characteristics of the tooth section. Barely nearly matched those are the standardized cementum aging model for the species and the tooth which every single one we have except for flat crab which was one of Shane's was an A rating. That one was a B rating. Which is still an 85 to 90 or something isn't it? I believe that's 95 to 99 percent on the A. It tells you right. We have a B I'm saying what's B. What's the percent of that being accurate? Right here is A. For B reliability ages there is evidence to support the result and the correct age is expected to be within the range given in the age range field. So they're still saying that it's still good. They know what it is. He's either three or four somewhere in there. Right. The first thing that I will mention is that on some of these like KB, flat crab, Brahma there is something in the notes which is categorized as AH. Abnormal histology. Unusual cementum layering and or tissue removal. I'm not sure exactly I guess is that supposed to mean how we took them out. I don't know because that's more than half of our deer we sent. So what do they mean? They just haven't seen Iowa deer teeth or what? I wouldn't understand why that would matter either if you have an A rating. You know what I'm saying? I don't know. We can call them and ask them but I don't think they still made it an A rating or an A grade for what they thought it was. I wonder I listened to a couple podcasts on this and I wonder they said that like sometimes if they have a really hard winter or a drought year or something that it'll change the amount of cementum layering and that could be an outlier in there or something. I wonder if EHD has anything to do with it too. That probably could. Yep. It wouldn't make a difference. So I think. So out of the 18 deer, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, 18 bucks or well there was only 17. The one was a split from the same tooth. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten. Ten of them came from us actually 11 and seven from you. I think it was. Good Lord. Is that right? And so Shane turned in seven. We turned in 11. Warren's deer hit right about where we thought he was. We don't have a lot of history with him with Magnum. If you guys recall the buck that Warren shot this past year, we felt like he was five or six years old and he came back at five. He was definitely. I honestly thought he was going to be six or seven. I could have sworn we wrote these down somewhere. Me and you disagreed on that throughout the summer didn't we? Because we were looking at pictures. You thought he was five. Yeah. And then you thought that he was older. Both were sitting there like it makes sense from the be older but. I thought he was seven and this is the reason I thought he was seven is because going off of what we've seen so far on cementum aging. It seems like six and a half is the best year and then seven they start to go downhill a little bit and the first pictures that we had of him, one, his body was a member. I sent you the pictures and you're like that thing's freaking huge. His body was gigantic but he also, I thought originally that he'd gone downhill some. Looking back now. That's when we had two years of history with him. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't know him well. And I thought he was mature then because last year I think he was within the nature two of himself. Before I thought he was quite a bit bigger the year before but looking back now I think that he was about the same. Roughly the same. He even actually might have gained an inch or two. Yeah he might have because his right side was so big but we didn't have much history so I think five is absolutely believable on that. But I thought he was going to be older. And then he, so that one I think, and he weighed two twenty six. I think we should just note the weights of these two because some of them were not that heavy like moms and I think that's interesting to note. This might sound really nerdy but we should just make a spreadsheet of just like that of our like what deer it is, the weight of it and then what we all come up with as far as we think he's five. I have. We know that he's five or whatever. I have it on my computer. Well I have all the does. Well you know a lot of your stuff but you don't know like if we put all of ours together so that we all know. Yeah just get a certain deer that I'm hunting that I think are three or four. The other thing that we'll do on this so Nick I hope you're up for it because you don't have a choice. We'll put in pictures of these deer. So we'll like we'll put in Magnum last year and then Magnum this year and so you guys can look at them and see what you think. You actually have to edit this one. So like Magnum you thought it was seven could have been that drought I think stream weather like the drought this year. Yeah. My deer didn't grow. Some of them went backwards and they were you know five years old they should have been jumping. You're right. My cord. Well I in my opinion you have I don't know how to say like in our area with L.A. and him. In my opinion those two seem like very similar in aged deer and L.A. barely did anything either. And they're both large caliber deer large caliber bodies and he only did what would we come up with five five to ten inches maybe and and Magnum did two three split bro. Did same thing. He just killed him at five maybe six. What did say split rail was five or six on there split bro. It said five five. The thing that would be interesting though is you know rancher will tell you that drought years is better. I've heard of it because they say that like John will tell you that that a drought years better for antler growth because there's more minerals in the grass and stuff that as long as your population isn't too much where they're eating at all that they get more antler growth because there's more minerals and stuff in the grass for them to get to. So I don't know if it. I don't know. I mean I personally I don't see that but it may be different. I don't necessarily agree with that in the Midwest. I don't know I've heard I've heard that theory too because that that goes to elk and when you go to elk and you look at the Missouri brakes. Missouri brakes is not a lush green area. It looks almost like the Grand Canyon yet the elk are huge. However the same time you'll hear a lot of people talk about and again I don't know whether they're right or not. See a lot of bulls that grow their fronts are really big their thirds are good then you get to the royals and back and they're real short and they're like yeah that's when our rain quit. That's when it that's when the drought hit and so that they couldn't finish off what they were growing. I've heard that numerous times whether that's true or not I don't know. But I do know this that where I elk hunted this past year and they've hunted there now for over 20 years killed over a hundred elk off that ranch and this year's elk were far smaller than what they've been in the past. I mean and they he was the guy that runs the whole place was he was saying that he thought it was because of the drought. So you see on heavy precipitation years. So you just feel like your bigger deer do more or more deer make bigger jumps or what is it that you see that's different. That five year old four to five year old jump usually you get a pretty good growth. We've had some drought years so far since I've been to Iowa in 2016 I think we've had two pretty severe drought years and they hit like he said around July when they were really trying to finish off and it's just like they stopped growing. So I don't know you know your two to three year old jump those deer are healthy young and you know kind of like a teenage guy he's going to do good no matter what once you start getting a little bit older like you get hurt they even not get hurt right now it takes us longer to heal up than it would you in eastern so you guys are not two to three year old range probably weren't that four jumping to five we're not going backward yet. Or seven. We may feel like I'm seven but. Doesn't have the right drugs. They're not going to be a dose of symptom process because I want to have you damn teeth left by the time. How many variables are you supposed to take into consideration? Well okay but hold on because here's one that I do recall. So I'm a kid I'm living in Virginia and we had a major flood that year I mean it flooded everywhere. Technic tables were up in trees that you were walking underneath. Sounds like a smart thing to walk under. Well you didn't know that it was all the firewood was up in the trees you had no idea until you got. Imagine walking down the sidewalk can hit the picnic table. Literally had to go recite a gun in because a cut piece of firewood fell out of a tree and hit my scope because we you would hold on to the trees to pull yourself up the hill because all the mud and silt had settled on down on the road and we drove to where as far as we could then had to walk from there. But my point is that year in Virginia they had a record kill and the reason that they had the record kill was because button bucks grew horns. These button bucks all had antlers it was all that I don't know about Kentucky but in Virginia a legal buck is any buck that has antlers that are visible above the hairline. So as long as it had and so the button bucks actually grew like little tiny and tons I killed one. It was a buck. They were considered a spike buck and so all these spike bucks were getting killed that were actually button bucks that grew and everyone and it was I mean it was a flood year. But that so that's the only time I've seen it in my years of hunting. See maybe that was just that there was fish on fields and stuff they weren't supposed to and they were eating fish oil. I guess. I mean I feel like there's so many things. I thought you were on drugs not him today. Okay so. That's a warrant every day. But our point is here is let's talk about aging because the reason that we agree with the ages that we got is because we felt like we had some we didn't know them and we had to kind of guess. So he came back in a range of where we thought. Let's go with the ones that we do know then. So Magnum we agreed on five that seems reasonable and we only had one year history with them. Easton's three and go ahead and show sheds. Neighbor neighbor brought his sheds in and I mean they're absolutely identical. I think it gives you a reference. I don't know that's a heck of a two year old but these sheds are like maybe one twenty if we're lucky. But he still had so he still has this knob this year but it's longer. He had every point was grown exactly the same way. The only thing that he was starting to do he was actually going to grow six possibly grow a six point on either side. Yeah well these are like maybe one twenty and he went one forty six. So he blew up twenty six inches in a pretty big jump. On a dry year. On a dry year. We weighed him right. He was one eighties and one ninety something wasn't he. No one forty seven. He was light. I mean I want to say one seventy so I haven't written down at home. I don't think he's definitely well under two hundred and he's that. Okay so Easton's I think we all believe that that's probably. Yeah when I saw him I thought he was four. Four. When we saw him on the ground we were like this is not. The five year old. The tears we thought this is definitely like probably maybe four and it's three. So well I think two it's hard because by the end of the year at least archery season they start to look rough. Yeah he had scars and stuff all over him. Yeah. Nix was three. We knew that. I thought I honestly thought it was going to be two. Yeah I was. I think that was a good one to find out that he was three. Yes. Because that came off with one of Shane's places and we'd rather have seen him because he had a he was a nice buck but he wasn't for three years old you'd like to see him farther along than where that deer was. His necklace was swelling up pretty good. So it was a good chance he was going to be three but I was like Warren when I look at his rack you would think he was two. Yeah. Typically that's what two year olds look like there but he he was pretty good body size. I mean his necklace was swelling up. I was thinking it might be three. KB 889 we know that one for sure we got and we'll put those in here. We got the pictures they have that one and we're 100% ingredients. Mitch's deer two. That might be the most devastating one on this page. Well there's no way that's right. That one that's the only other one I could say that I feel like could be incorrect. I'm really curious once we get to yours. That's Mitch's right. No Mitch's is already off to Wales. Oh where's that one from? That's 11 that's his deer. He's got a screw up antler too. Yeah remember he. Well hold on hold on we're going to get to that one. So Mitch's if Mitch's deer was two that one is a mega heartbreaker because that deer was going to be massive. Right 240. He's going to go on 260. I don't know. Oh make it as bad as you can. Let's go 310. I don't think that deer can be too. He had so much mass and he. He was bringing a lot of those too. He was doing fire. He was too. He was the check-norse of two. How thick was his skull cap? It was pretty thick. It was pretty thick. It was still here when we got this back. I thought I remember it being pretty thick too. What was, did you guys weigh him or do you remember if you did? I'm sure we did but I don't remember what he weighed. Anyways, Brahma six years old and that one I think we would. We thought for sure that he was sick. You thought he was seven. I thought he was six. I thought he was at least six to seven. Yeah just going off because we had several years of pictures of him where you could tell he was a mature deer and he never really did anything different. Right. So Brahma we agreed upon Karen, mom's deer, five. We thought he was three. But then after we never went back and looked at photos, I went back and then the trail cameras and we looked at pictures and he definitely was five. We'd pictures of him at four and three and he was never doing anything. He just got there and stayed there. Yep. Yeah. Flat crab four. How do you feel about that one? We don't know that here. Flat crab is the one that got ran over or a buck fight and died. I found him dead. I thought he was three or four. He could have went either way and that's what it came back there in three or four. I wish it was more specific so I could close that one out in my mind. That doesn't matter now but I feel like he was probably four. That's just shy of 180 right? 185 is what you scored him. 185 looks yep. I think that deer was four. And four is the number they gave him. Yeah. And three or four was the age range but four is what they said. With an A-ready. Small buddy. He was the only bee. Was that the one in the rain though? Yeah. Yeah. That's such a video of him in the rain. He looked like four year old man. Me, he looked four. Yeah, sure. Yeah. Brett's deer. Five. 100%. We knew that deer. Yep. He was the same thing every year. Absolutely five year old deer. Back to where we were. So Marty's three. Time in. Would you agree with that? Yes. Just from what you could tell. Okay. Ben's deer. Five. Would you agree with that? I was five. He was a... You knew that deer? Yeah. He was an eight-porner and been around for a long time. I thought he might be five or even six but I would go with five. He was like a hundred and twenty-seven deer or something like that. I would say he's one thirty-five. Was he? He was a good eight-four. Yeah. Well that's like Marty's deer if he was three. You're talking a mid-150s three-year-old. Oh yeah. He had some potential there. Yeah. For sure. Ben's deer is five. Okay. He's thirteen, four. Yeah. And I thought he may have been three. When I shot him I was like, I got two. Uh-oh. But this is when you thought he was going to die, right? No. No. I didn't know this deer zero history. I mean... Was that the one with the split brows? No. No, that's split brow. What? What in deer did you shoot this year? No, this was last year. That's Ben's eight. Oh, okay. That's not the one with deer he shot this year. No. You just saved their teeth for that long? Yeah. You all told me to save their teeth, huh? So what did you do with this year? Deer. Teeth. He saved them for next year. Oh yeah. That deer's... Kind of realize he's saving deer in from last year. That's his... He killed. Yeah, he killed John. That's a big deer. I was going to say this year's deer was definitely not this year. Yeah, that's how you get them owed. You saved their teeth for years and turned them in. They're like, oh yeah, he's old. That's... Yeah, he's from the south. He thinks if he holds on to the other year they're going to get older. Yeah, when you killed it it was three. But now that it's half or two years he's five. That's half or seven education. He killed two year olds for this. It looks like five. Okay, so sticker 13 was which one? Um, killed him last year. Okay, last year. Yep. Okay. Almost 14. Five. Don't worry about it. Almost nine. And he's almost nine. Why'd you call him almost? Every year he's almost a nine-pointer. It barely comes. Yeah. Don't read that number next to me. That was just the number. And you agree with five? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. High tower five. I thought he was five. That was... That was possibly six but leaning towards five. That was your 200. Yep. Okay. Split brow set or split brow five? Yeah. Yeah. Again, he could... I thought he might have been six but you always... it's always tough at three to four year old. Like when you don't really know them and between three and four you're like easy three, easy fours, then you're always saying easy four or five, easy five or six. Yeah. So this is good to determine. Dan, which was mom's the second tooth for mom's five. That was right when it was agreed. Okay. Dan. So now we've got the discrepancy. The 11 which they are saying is three and you're saying that he's not possible that he's three and that this is all of the sheds. So this is great because we're doing it. We're doing it. Look at the evidence and see what we all believe. You got his rack? Yes. Let's see this thing. Man, he's heavier than I remembered. You mountain him? Yes. Okay. So this was which year? 2020. Okay. 2020. Yep. 21. 2020. 2020. 2021. And this is match for 2021. It is. Yeah. Give me the left side. I'll show them. So 2020. 2021. That's this year. 2022. 2022. So, you know, put it to this side. This is interesting. Year to year. So this is definitely got bigger. A bit bigger. Every year. I don't know. What are we looking at? I don't understand how sheds are going to determine anything. What does it tell you? Is it the same deer? I thought we already determined it was the same deer. Well, seeing is determined is the same deer. Oh, I was just assuming that we knew it was the same deer. All right. Let's disprove Shane. That's what we're saying is. So is that that's what Shane is saying is you're telling them then if cement to me, you use correct that means and these sheds are all to this deer that that that antler right there is a one and a half year old deer. Their bur should be the same year to year, right? Well, they're going to get bigger. Yeah, they look very similar. I think they look completely different. That's a perfect circle. Well, here's what I'm going to look at is what I'm saying is. I feel like this is the same deer. The antler looks the same. This is the next year. I'm just not sure that that's him and I'm going off of the brow time. It just seems like in my opinion, what I've seen on brow times is when the brow times are short, they stay short. When they're long, they're long, they're never. I mean, and the other one, the other characteristic that never seems to change. If your deer doesn't have mass at one and two years old, he's not going to ever grow it. Doesn't get into mass. I mean, you can see noticeable mass. You don't think that's mass. I think there's a lot of mass of this. Average. I would say that's average. That's average. That's right. If that's a two year old now. Two year old, that's what you got to keep in mind is assuming this is all the same deer. That's a flipping two year old. I'm going out on a limb here and saying that that's not the same deer. Those are two completely different pedicles, but he looks identical from the rack up. But Shane, you're not saying anything. He believes that they're saying it. I'm going to inject one thing here for Shane because I know Shane's a deer nut and I'll bet that half of the information that you have is you're going off of habits. Would that be? Habits. Yes. Bedding areas, habits. A lot of thousands of trail, this home body. I mean, he's there all the time. He's zero time. So I don't question Shane's knowledge whatsoever because he knows a lot more than us. I can see him biting his lip. Yeah, I know he is. No, I don't know why he is. No, I'm good with Ben Roane. He needs a talk. But I do think real quick you should explain for people that the thing that puts this whole thing in question is if you aren't able to watch the podcast right now, the right side on the deer when you kill them is whack. Now it's all crazy. And so you knew you had a theory on that though, right? Right. And I agree with you on the theory that when that happens, you're going to get something messed up. Yes. Now this would be the only time though. Let's make sure that people understand what that is that we're talking about. Can you hold that up, Shane, and show people? So when I found his right side shed, he had a big bird that broke off. And from previous experience with other bucks, when they broke off like that, this deep, they would throw something fucking, I had a deer die the year before that as a five year old, his four year old shed done the same thing. Another reason I know this is same deer. Like I don't have the his right side as a, my neighbor found it. But if you, so see this six point. It looks just like this side just flips sides. I mean, this side looks just like this side. Right. But he had the same thing when he was, if that's a year and a half or two and a half, if I had this other shed, my neighbor found it's exactly like that. So Drake, you know, Drake, the clothing company, another symbol, almost named his deer Drake, because it looks like the Drake symbol right there. So and that was really, I mean, every time. So he had five on left and six on his right each year, other than the year that he went funky from the, you know, the, the shed. I wish I knew a single Drake song because I was going to make a rap joke. Well, that would be the, that would be the only time you typically find an injured deer growing his antler screwed up the next year on the same side. Right. No, they say it has to do with whether it's a front leg injury or, or a back leg injury. And I'm going to, I'll probably mess it up. If it's a front leg injury, I think that they expect to see the same side affected. If it's a back leg injury, it flip flops. Now, I think that any injury is opposite. No, I'm telling you now it's not the case. Um, I don't know how much I agree with that considering based on things I've seen. Well, Shane also, this wouldn't be thought of injury injury. That's what I'm saying is direct to the antler. Direct to the antler. I feel like it'd definitely be his right antler would still be screwed up the following. Yeah. Cause he's got a hole. I mean, it's really messed up. So when I've caped him out and the reason I killed this deer, I actually thought he was a four, he had a pass until he come out like this. I was hoping he didn't have anything screwed up, but the deer that died a year before, he died like mid November and no bullet, I was or anything. Ben and I found him and he was just dead and we couldn't find any reason why he would be dead. And I talked to a biologist and he said, I told him about the, it was even longer than this. He said, that'll kill him 90% time. So I started reading a little bit saying everyone said the same thing. Good chance it's going to kill him. So I talked to my neighbors and I'm like, Hey, what do you guys want to do? And everybody agreed we probably should shoot him. And I'm glad I did because when I caped him out and there was in his brain area, it got, there was a lot of fuss in there, but on top, it was crazy. All the fuss that was up here. Oh, yeah. Yeah. He he. What am I looking at this for? Just while you can look at the body and stuff and see to me that that body there and that picture doesn't look like a three year old year. His stomach doesn't. His neck doesn't. His neck is still little. Why do I can you not zoom in on tacked him? I'm pointing to an article found back. I found back on that. So he was in 2013 though, not always. Rear leg injury is often effect. Future. Yeah. The opposite side. Right. But what we're saying is what about the front leg? Yeah. Front. What did I've read where front legs don't? It gave us plenty of subject matter to study that this year. Yeah. Yeah, we'll see you next year. Um, I'd see this deer this picture. I feel like his neck doesn't match his body. What date is that picture? I don't know. I think the October six. I will say if the skull cap stuff has anything to do with it. That's his skull is not that thick. But that I don't know. I'm having I'm having a hard time between these two that year to year. I could easily buy that this was two. I could definitely get that. I'd have a hard time believing that that body. It's right. Massive. I agree. Have we ever had another deer that we could state that was like that at one? The only one that would be close is what I believe straight up is one. And he just doesn't have this. The G four. He doesn't have the G four. He just had he just a G one G two. We're about the nine. He's pretty close to the thing. Yeah, he could have been close at one. He might have had a 120 inch kind of rack. But this is probably a big one year old right there. Yeah. But at the but it's a much way to you put on a pedicle. Well, I just guess I wish I knew him better. I mean, I think there's a ton ton of weight you can put up with. A few sheds of deer that on the rack that are the same deer. Yeah, because I don't think they like to hear your hammer from your deer. You do. Yeah, because like split brow, you could tell. I mean, there was no doubt that he was saying. He was a little bit different every year. And the thing about 11 when I killed him there, that deer field rest, 217. You've seen three year old. That's I've never seen a three year old field rest, 217. Yeah, 217. There's only one that I know of that. I think it was field dressed, 217. That was juice. And he was he was he was already in that he already had that look that was. Oddball, big. Yeah, you know, I mean, just an outlier, you know, that the other one was, I killed one that was 265 at five gutted. So he could have been I would think a three. He'd probably be two, 17, you know, somewhere in there. So you think we're going to have the same deer come back? Or do you think that he's going to bring a bunch of random jobs and hoping that he's able to bring some of the hair, a lot of point. And as long as he doesn't come back and tell us why drink milk this morning. So I remember what I was looking for. There was going to get that, but I was. But yeah. And I don't know. So what's your, what are you guys saying? Same deer. That deer is not three. Whether they are the same deer or not, that he's not three. How old do you think he is then? If we're going off that, I think he's at least four or five off of what? That's his pictures alone. He's that's not a three year old deer. No way. Here's junior for you. What's your thought, dad? OK. OK. What am I supposed to do though? You're a handy one. We don't have a match to this, do we? Wait, well, that's yeah, this is not. Wait, since when are we at this hammer in it? But they're not saying one year one is one year. One year. The other year. That's pretty. Well, I guess you could kind of look at it though. Good Lord is based. Are you? That one's not a very, that's not the same side, but no, it's not the same side. I just look at it year to year. See, I see an oval shape. See that to me looks identical. Yeah, that's pretty well. Is that same year now? No. Same side, two years in a row. This to me looks pretty dang. No one. No one is a perfect circle and the other one is not. That you're one on your right is a perfect circle. I can't get over these antlers right now. Holy hell, I've not held these in a while. They look big on the wall, but I hold them there. They're heavy. They're so freaking heavy. I dare it was towed. What happened to you? That doesn't even sound right. Neighbor killed him. He went downhill a little bit a year after that right side shed and then he killed him. Yeah, I was. I guess I'm in. I'm going to agree. I think that you're looking at just one of those outliers. I think that he was three years old. So you agree it's the same deer. And you think he's a three? I do. I think I agree with Shane as far as I do. I think it's the same deer. I don't know if he's, I don't know if I, I don't know if he, I'm going off of everything on here too. They've gotten right. Everything. And we've had lots of other years. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I would like to, I think we should call him and ask him to look at it again. Because I wonder if maybe his injury could have affected his thing about that. Yeah. And where the line is closer or something and they didn't look close enough and they and it was different because I, on a few of those podcasts and stuff I'd listen to, like they, even the people that were on the. From the aging thing had one, somebody call them one time from Texas because they had these deers that were. Earmarked or whatever. And they're like, Hey, you guys got these ones wrong. And they're like, what? And then they went back and they looked and there was some outlier. It was a drought year or something like that. And they looked and they were able to confirm. They're like, Yeah, you're right. We did have them wrong. And we were, and we can, and then they were like, was there some kind of something here that happened in this year and this year? And then those guys were able to tell them, yeah, that was, that's. There was a drought or whatever. So I'd be worth calling them to see it. And maybe that injury caused something where they were like four I could buy for sure. I could absolutely buy four. See, I had him at four, maybe five, but leaning really towards four. But my thought process is if it's three, tickles me and death, I'm wrong. I've got really good genetics. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. But I'm having a hard time. Two, I can even the same deer. I can buy two year old. I can buy that as a two year old rack. Like just one of those freak two. There's like a hard time buying that as one. There's not even a hint of that G five. Yeah, but anywhere. Oh, right here. The iGuard looks completely different. And I see them do all the time where they'll flip the sides of the. I could see that, but I'm just saying you got two years in a row. If that is the same deer that is not. No, even hint for it. Tiny iGuard's. The only similarities, even the even the G four doesn't look exactly the same. The G two and three do. That's it. That's pretty common over there at my farm. The fours sometime will be longer, especially when that's the only five out. It'll take away from the four. This one here. Start looking at the curves in this two. Yeah, because he has exactly on his G two as well. Yeah. And then this three is made exactly the same angle too. What you think about like this? Think about, think about magnums rack this year. If you looked at Magnum, like if we'd have been inspecting in this close compared to his rack last year, you wouldn't have said that same deer. But partly what I'm going off of is the habits and everything. Pretty sure there wasn't two hundred and eighty years right there that were. Doing the same thing. Yeah. If that's not, if that deer's not these any of this. So he just showed up out of nowhere because I keep pretty good inventory with, you know, with cameras. It makes it easy to do and I fortunate enough to have time spend a lot of time on the farm. I don't know who it would be because I mean all the deer showed up from here before. Okay, here's this one. Here's, you know, wicked to caught in all of them. And so it almost, if it's not him, he disappeared. Eleven never showed up this year and another buck showed up in his place and had this exact same habits. Yeah. Yeah, that's hard to believe. That's just something. I will say though that I believe that I am able to recognize deer is good or better than almost anybody because I have like a photographic memory when it comes to deer. And I've had a few where I had to eat my words. Right. That were really, really hard for me to swallow because I looked at them and then I was like, and they had something. There was one. Oh, that's where it was. It was at the farm at our northern farm dad and there was two tens. And I think they might have been brothers or something. I called them twin tens. Because they were same places all the time and absolutely flippin identical. Like unbelievably similar. And then I don't think it was till the next year that we were able to finally figure it out. There was two of them. Me and dad had a ball to kick her or something like that. Me and dad had them both come together under our stand. Oh, yeah, there you go. So you popped out two of them. Yeah. But this, but I think that is a hundred percent this deer. Yeah, I think you just swap that. I mean, he just swap sides and straight up did that often with that one G four. He would throw it over to the other side. And so because this and this are a match set, correct? Yeah. Yes. These two go together. Yeah. But why on earth did? He was so running the same habit so much. Ben and I called. Like once we decided we were shooting that deer, the neighbors now. I told Ben I said I'm going to kill him mid October. Yeah. Split Browfield. That's where I killed him at. Oh, I believe he was. I think it is the same deer. And he could be three. That antler right there is one that really I can buy this is two. I could buy that as a two year old deer in Iowa that's got good genetics. That is a one year old. I'm just having a hard time buying that. But we don't shoot a lot of one year old either. So I don't really know, you know, Adam age or anything. But I don't know that we've ever seen a one year old that's quite got a rack like that. And I hope it is. Yeah. I mean, I was going to shoot him whether he was three, four or five because I knew he was going to die. It doesn't matter. Right. And if that's the case, he ran with a lot of those. So I'm sure he bred them. And I would have hopefully those same genetics coming back. Yeah. So maybe we should answer a question for people. Why does there's probably a lot of people going, well, what do you even care about? You know, I mean, big as big, shoot them when they're big. You know, but our whole thing is we're trying to kill, giving them the most potential to get to the, to them to reach their potential. And that's five years old. And I'll go out on another limb because we've now started. We're now probably five or six, seven years into this of understanding the ages. And there's tons. And I know some of these guys and I would sit right here. I'd have them come in here and we'd argue, but that are telling me, or not telling me, telling the public that they're seeing seven, eight, nine year old deer jump back. And we have yet to see that happen on any farm that we have seen five years old as a peak. Six might be a little bit bigger. It can be six. We've seen the biggest racks. Yeah. I mean, they're kind of hold, but that seven, they don't do anything. They're not slightly slightly going downhill and by the time they're eight, they are going downhill. Seven may have a little more mass at the basis and things like that. But shorter times and heavier times. Yeah, you can, you can sort of get the characteristics of a rack that's on its way downhill. I agree with that. But we have yet to see anyone of our deer on any of the farms that we, and we're keeping ages. I went, I think, 2016, maybe 15. I could, if I had my computer out here. So 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22. Now we're into 20. We wouldn't have 23 ages. So we've got seven years of history and we haven't seen a single jump in the seven plus range. That's over 70 or 80 deer. If not a hundred. It's quite a few. You know, I mean, we had any others other than KB and Bullwinkle make it past six that we killed. Oh, I wish I brought the computer out here. I thought Hershey was seven because he looked short and stubby and wasn't as big as the last year and he was five, wasn't he? Yeah. How old was junior? We didn't kill him. He was six. Remember, we thought juice was six and he came back as five. Yeah. He was a freaking freak of nature. He got his name, Juice, though, is because he was on a race. Touch was old, wasn't he? He was only five. He was five. Man, I've got a lot of five year olds. That's a good thing. I think my 10 was five too, wasn't he? We didn't know him. We thought he was going to be five. If you take this into consideration, though, then Bullwinkle, we know was eight. I mean, we were confident. We were nine at the youngest and from his peak year. Nine at the youngest? Or we were thinking that he could have been nine. Oh, yeah. Six years old, he was like one 88 or one 98 or something like that going off the sheds that that other dude's got. Right. He had an eight inch deer at six. Then when I killed him, he was 172. So, you know, he lost what? 14 inches, something like that. And then KB, Easton, I killed him this year when he was six. I'm just guessing. I think he was in the mid seventies. Probably in the mid seventies. When he was six. When he was six. Yeah. He had like. You killed him when you were seven. Sixteen or eight. Scorable points or something like that. You see? Eight. Yeah. So, he was in the praying the one seventies and then this year when I killed him with the broke stuff, he was 137 or 139. So, mid one forties with broke. So, that's the two year that we've had so far, we know we're eight. Each lost close to 20 inches. Right. And other people tell us that they're growing 20 inches. We didn't see that. I think that they're off on their ages. And those, what they think is eight is actually five to six. Yeah. That's what I think. I would tend to agree. Good thing about this will get better at it each year. Because I'm gonna be wrong. As long as this is accurate. Right. If this isn't accurate, then we're all screwed. I'm gonna call him though and ask him if they'll take a look at that one that we know that the deer was injured. I might even need to take a picture of the burr. Yeah. You know, and say, here's what the injury was. Can you guys take a look at that if you still have the specimen and so what do they go off of when they're. I'm not for sure on that. I'm sure the audience would like to know that too. How do they age them? Is it rings like a tree? Exactly like that. So is what they take those bottom two that we cut out, you know, and then they cut that, cut them in half laterally. Right. Yeah. And then it's just like rings on a tree where they can see they are able to look at it through a microscope and then they can see is what they're doing is basically looking at the different amount of cementum in between each ring. And that tells them a year, right? And so that's what they were saying on the one where they had a drought or whatever it was in Texas that the lines were abnormally close to one another. And so they hadn't seen those. And so they accidentally missed a year. So the two probably didn't grow as much because of the drought. Yes. And they just weren't looking close enough or something that they missed that line in the cementum there. And so then they were off on the number. But and so from everything I've read, this is supposed to be extremely accurate. They've taken molars. That's the other way that people do it is they look at the molars, right? And they've taken biologists that all went to school for everything and given to them in their accuracy. I remember this because it was so bad. It was 33.8%. That's how accurate those guys were on. I'm looking at the molars and the aged deer. So this is supposedly way more accurate. And from everything I've listened to, it's pretty accurate. And then now we've got a pretty good set of our own numbers that I think that it's got to be night. I would be really interested to see if you've got the first one where we can definitely say they're off, you know, because that's so that we had one in eight or something like that. That they had made that we were very questionable on this year. No Mitch's deer was one that we questioned a couple years ago. No, this year. No, I'm saying that was not from a couple other years ago that we were very skeptical of. I don't remember which one it was. The only thing I'd say about this though is I think that for all these people that do listen to what we're talking about, I've talked to several people. I even talked to some other people on a podcast that sent in teeth and then they'll tell you the deer was eight years old and the tooth came back at like five or six. And they're like, no, there's no way. Then I'll ask them, well, how many years did you know the deer? And, oh, I never knew him, you know, but this deer was eight. And you got to be humble enough to look at this stuff and say, okay, I'm probably wrong. And I think most of the deer that we've seen now we're starting to realize that it's pretty rare to have one against the five. Six, seven, eight is really, really rare. And I'm with you. I've eaten crow several times on a judge and deer and things like that. No, no reason I feel so confident in this deer is one that I watch because he was young year and half, two and half, whatever he is there with 11 points. I thought, no, he's got when they have more than eight points, because that farmed you up with eight pointers. It's like eight pointers on top eight pointers. And when they have come out with 11 really young, get pretty good. I only hope and need no, he'd blow up. And I think he was on the way to doing that, especially if he got another year, if he hadn't got the injury. Oh, yeah. I mean, he was. He wouldn't need it regardless. But I, that's why I believe is because I know how much you're obsessed with your deer and I do the same thing as far as like I can just remember him. I'm like, he's, and will ask me. He's like, Warren, what deer is this? And when I really think about how I'm recognizing it, half of the information I'm taking is what camera was it? You know, and then I'm looking for one little thing on his rack. I'm like, oh, that's this deer. And nine times out of 10, it is because there wasn't a new buck that turned moved in or anything like that. And it's the same deer. But so I believe you. I think it is the same deer. And I could buy three still, but the one, the year and a half old rack is one that just has a hard time believing that's a one and a half. That's why when David said 11, three, and I was like, well, they're wrong, you know, because I have it. That's the first thing I thought of was that Chad right there. Yeah. Gosh, I bet the year and a half old deer. And I guess it can be because you do have three deer that's, you know, these two 40s, how big were they when they're a year and a half? Yeah. Then you read, you don't really know how the potential until they get three because year and a half to it, after it doesn't show up, anything, then you can. Right. Yep. Well, that's, I think that I, you know, I think everybody thinks that I would, we have all the age class, all these super old deer. And that's where we get these 150, 160 inch deer. I think that he was don't understand our genetics. So they're killing three year old deer that are 150 inches and 160 inches. Absolutely. Yes, they are. Right, and he's done? Yeah. We have proof there. But it's the year I've killed in a long time. But when we go back to juice, when he comes back at five, and then we go back through and look at the pictures that put him the year that he almost shot him. He was two years old. And I mean, at two years old, he was like 135, 140. He also was a stallion. Like, yeah, he was a pictures of him that we had pictures of mixes feeder and the deer, you know, he didn't have any gut or anything yet. But like just his height. He was like half, I remember even before we knew who it was, we had a tab form called Gigantor because these other, they just towered over him. It was unbelievable how big that deer was. Well, what else? I think we've covered the aging process pretty well here, guys. So if you guys are looking at getting your deer aged, the place we're using is mats and labs. They're not a sponsor of ours or anything like that. It just they have done the best work that we have seen as far as aging and stuff like that. So we've used those guys. If you want to send them in, I think Shane and I talked about it when we were wrong. I think it's somewhere between 15 and $20 per per set of teeth and the more teeth you send in, then the price goes down. But and but anyhow, it's and it takes a little while. I mean, we got these back April 15th, I think, and we turned them in January, February. Yeah, I think it's a month. Yeah, so it's two, three months, but I mean, it's not like your their deer are dead if you got their teeth. So we're not like you're in a big hurry. So, but it's it is if you own a piece of ground. It's worth your time to understand your deer a little better and understand whether or not they are three or four. Three or four or five. If you're wanting to know those things. Yeah, well, I mean, like I said, it's not so much for the public land guy that if you let a deer go, he's going to get killed. But it is more for those out there that have piece of ground or maybe you don't own it, but you have permission to hunt it where you could pass a deer and he has a chance of living, you know. But again, I'll go back to juice. I'm sure Shane, some of the deer that you know that you're talking like who was the one you said that was 230 some pounds dressed. Then you kill one that was really, really big or is that one that he was talking about? I'd want two 57. Okay, so two hundred and fifty seven. We don't think you're going to see a three year old like that. Probably not. But this oddball that you have that's 200 and something could be from three to five years old in Iowa or older. I mean, and then you're going to see 170 pound two year olds to eight year olds. They're just like people. Yes. Some people don't actually going to be bigger than others. Yep. So it's just it's all over the board. It really is. I wish it. I mean, it's nice when you do see a Brahma or a Magnum. You can look at them and no, they're not young. You know, but I didn't told you though, too. Last year, if I'd killed Magnum last year, I'd have been adamant that deer was not four. You know, I'd have been like this. He's at least a five year old. Yeah. I mean, because he was back even last year, he was just bigger than everybody else. The deer that you killed, we didn't have a name for him. The 10 you killed the year before. Yeah. Okay. So he came back. We thought for sure that deer was older. And but then when he grew the same rack the next year, we thought, well, maybe he's not maybe he's seven. Maybe because he didn't really grow much. He just. I think we thought he was younger. Remember, we thought this deer was only three or something and then he didn't do anything. Right. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. I mean, I thought he was like four going on five and instead it turned out he was we thought he was six going on seven and what he ended up getting back at six. I think he's five. I think he's five. I think he was five. I think we thought he was going to be three and was going to be four and he was going to do a 20 inch jump and he ended up not doing anything. And so then we figured he'd probably five or six. So shoot him. Yeah. And then we shot him and he was five. Okay. That makes sense. So when you shot Magnum, I thought he was probably six as well. Yeah. I mean, he had that old look to him. From his body and everything. It was real wide. I mean, yep. Yep. Yep. I think they're I think their heads is somewhat of an indicator. Seems like their heads keep growing for whatever reason. Because they just some of those old deer their heads are just freaking huge. Yeah. Even if their body doesn't core correspond, you know, it doesn't get the same girth. Brahma was the same way. Yeah. Brahma's head was big. Yeah. Brahma's body was big too. Yeah. He was big. So he was two, twenty two, thirty wasn't. That was a risk. Mine and Matt, him and Magnum weighed the exact same to the outs. Yeah. Like I had to check my scale because I thought there's no way that they weigh the exact same amount. Right. Then, uh, well, yeah. And then he was like, you know, really though, Brahma's a lot bigger because yours has two pounds of antler on his head. But then KB, that one's interesting. So he was eight years old and he was one thirty. Oh, he was time. One hundred and forty or something. Yeah. But the time of year two, I mean, killing him in January. I don't think that mattered. I think that that deer was so old. There was something wrong with him too, I think. He had he would limp every once in a while on his back leg too when I saw him coming in. Well, when I... And when you killed him, you could see like a weird... It was like a softball. If there's something on him, yeah. He was... He had lived a long life. He needed to go. Yeah. Because he had a huge gut. Like he looked at him and he was ancient, you know, and like just... He just was starting to... Yeah. And then when he went to load him up, it felt like a dough. Mm-hmm. Oh, this is nice. All right. Well, thank you guys. Shane, thank you for bringing these in. I mean, it always makes it interesting when Shane stops by. And I think we... I don't know if we've solved anything or just made it more muddled or not, but we're going to check and we'll do enough data. We might not do an entire podcast on it, but we'll see if we can find out if these guys might be wrong on one deer. And that could be the case. But if not, if they were to go back and look and came back and said, no, we're three, then... I agree. If you ever decide to sell any of that property, let me know because I'd like to buy some of it. That'd be a great three, old one. Really good one and a half year old. So, all right, guys. Well, thanks for being here for the Raise Hunting Podcasts and listening to everything that we got going on. Man, I can't thank you guys enough for those that have done it and put down reviews, but we want to ask the rest of you to continue to do so. Those help tremendously. Continue to send in. We still have people doing it, but it seems to have slowed down some. We want your topics because we know there's certain things that you... Man, you guys were excellent on the turkey stuff. We covered a lot of different turkey stuff. We still can do some more turkey stuff, too. We know that there's many of you that your turkey seasons are just starting. So, anyhow, just get ahold of us. And that's what we're here for is to try to... We love doing what we do, but we also love helping you guys do what you do as well. So, from the Raise Hunting team and from Shane, thank you again. We'll see you next time. Okay. Okay. Okay.