Learning Deer In 10 Years: Diving Into the Penn State Deer - Forest Study

All right, guys, well, welcome back to the raised hunting podcast. And again, we have, I have my two special guests here. I have Warren and Eastern and we're going to try to keep them out of the boxing match and move on, but we have a pretty cool topic. But before we get on to our topic today, some of you are going to get a big out of boy and some of you are going to get scolded. And as if you watch through Spotify, you guys are doing a good job reviews. We've been sharing the podcast with others, but you people watching through Apple bad bad naughty naughty. You need to pick it up in trouble. Leave us some reviews. You Apple listeners need some reviews. So only if they're good though any specific people we need to bring out today or no, that's the only thing that's goofy about Spotify and it is that Spotify just lets them leave a review with the stars and Apple lets them, you know, say something. Yeah. So like if they say anything to us on Spotify, they got to do it through the Q&A section deal that we still can't figure out how to reply to. I can't figure out how to find that as a listener. Find what? The Q&A. I've listened to lots of podcasts, but I've tried to leave a review and I figured if you click a star and give you a pop up to talk about or say something, I can't find it anywhere. It will. On Spotify, it doesn't. Yeah, I can't find it. So. So, I've been on this specific podcast to do the Q&A deal. All right. Well, today though, we're going to specifically talk about Whitetail Deer and some common thoughts that have been. What's a new study? Yeah, but I'm a new study. I'm sure a lot of people have probably already heard about it. Yeah, there's been a lot of people talking about this new study that came out of Pennsylvania where they collared. What was it? 1100 deer? Yeah, it says over 1100 deer. 1100 deer and they studied them over the period of 10 years. So whatever their lifespan was, that's not assuming that 1100 of them lived 10 years. Well, I wanted to just to clarify and they're and and for just to be really clear here and transparent, there's a lot of information in my opinion that they're not very clear on. It's going to be hard for us to. Yeah, I don't know like where they still collaring deer, five years into the study, or did they have all of them collared by that first? I think that they would have had to continue to call yeah, 1100 seems like I'd be a lot to do it one time, or maybe that's going to be consistent as far as the ones living. Yeah. So average age of a year and a half. But anyways, they found some information through this study that some people would probably agree with and some people would disagree with on certain things and contradict certain things and we fall in both categories. And so we thought it would be a really good topic to discuss on this podcast and see what we do agree with and don't agree with. Well, number one, there's going to be a lot of people that are going to either be really mad about it or just deny it. And I'm going to find that humor. Oh, now these little turds won't let me read it. See, I told you. It's really good. Well, the very first comment, I mean, the very first topic that they talk about is deer movement. And I think I tend to agree with them. I've been claiming that there has been that it's not quite what we've always thought, you know, that it's first thing in the morning right at dusk is your peak movement time. Well, you're going to have a fight here because this is interesting because they say in there was it 12 to 1? Yeah. What it says. They had 274 bucks. Well, let me read it now. Well, they had 274 bucks that were collared and they said the peak movement for the bucks was 12 to 1 o'clock or 11 to 1, which is midday, not over, not in the midday. So 11 p.m. to 1 and they're saying that specifically with the bucks mainly and then the do's are evenings and mornings still. Well, the study found deer rested in the afternoon and we're back on the move again from 4 p.m. till dusk. And so I think that that is number one. I think that that shows right there when bucks are moving and it depends. But the thing I think to take into consideration with that part is what is movement classified as because if you move like in in the evening or in the morning, I know dang well, a lot of the deer in certain areas are going from their bed to food and when they're going from their bed to food, that could be 100 yards, that could be 500 yards. Where their routine is that they're going to do. And so I don't know, this is where we're talking about the clare, like they need to clarify a little better and there probably is an actually very written out study of this that we just haven't found yet. So if you guys know where that's at, let us know. Yes. And it's a link. Um, I tried pretty hard. I think it's to find the full step. It's important to take into consideration at that midday movement. The 11 to 1 is more like they're in their bedding area and they're moving around their bedding area or going like maybe 100 yards this way or meander in that way or checking some different things out or maybe grabbing a bite to eat whatever. I think that's a completely different type of movement compared to what they're doing. When most people think of movement, we're seeing them out in fields, they're moving across fields, they're out and about, not necessarily moving within their own restraints of where they're living. And I don't know if they're clarifying that, I don't know if they're saying that it's the same type of movement or not. In my opinion, I think that I would, I mean, I would tend to agree with it just solely because, um, well, I think they're, I agree with what you're saying, though, you have to clarify it. So 12 to 1 o'clock. I don't see a lot of bucks standing around out in the field feeding. No, that's, you know, that's the other thing is I think that one, we, we, I would like to know when we're all talking about deer movement, I think we're all talking mostly about during hunting season, when we're in our standard or hunting deer, I, I, I think of it, I do think of summertime a lot too. So just because that's the time when I'm driving around looking at them as well. But I'm mainly thinking hunting season or around it. Well, and that's, that's really stupid to me that they don't clarify that. Like is this, is this averaged out over the entire year or what? There'd have to be some skewed numbers if that's the case. Yeah. Well, because this is the one, there's part of this on the movement that I do not agree with whatsoever. I think, yeah, according to the deer forest study, most deer spent the early hours after dawn in their cozy beds, not moving greatly until 10 a.m. What's more the pig movement buck was movement for bucks was between noon and 1 p.m. I, the noon and 1 p.m. might be true. I do not agree with that they're bedded until for the most part from dawn till 10 a.m. Which the other thing I think we do need to consider here is that this study was on pencilvania deer. And that's where I'm wondering, you know, is this, it was that over the whole course of a year or is that, you know, October and November? Because gobbler knob, if that was the case, one, you would never ever get into that stand and then see anything. And two, you can sit there and see 25 30 deer from daylight till frickin 10 30 that are clearly funneling back. Yes. Well, according to that, you'd think that you wouldn't be, we don't hunt at night, obviously. But you would think that you wouldn't get much on nighttime, like for trail camera pictures and stuff. And a lot of guys, a lot of people will have more at night than they do during the daytime. Granted, that can also be determined whether where you have your camera set up and on their patterns and everything. With that, how that's going, that would say that they don't move at night. And that's, well, that's just not true. Well, and in the noon to 1 p.m., that one I, and the thing I was saying earlier that I think that you could constitute a lot of this would be cell camps. Because I can, I can tell you for a fact, if there's honestly one of the busiest times on my cell camps, it's probably, I'd have to go and look for sure. But I, and maybe it's just because I wake up in the morning and I have a bunch of pictures. But I feel like it's always the morning is when I get the most pictures on my cell camps period. And I don't think that there's anybody out there that would tell you that they get the most cell camp pictures of bucks at 12 to 1. So is that mean, when they're saying that's those deer peak movement during that time? Is that mean that most bucks are getting up and they're, and they're going 50 yards and then they're betting back down until that 4 p.m. window they're talking about? What does that mean as far as movement to me? Because if you're going to tell me that a buck is moving 2, 300 yards. No, cell camp I had out last year, I would, that, I mean that's one out of, I don't know how many cameras I had out, but one camera that was a cell camp that that one would is the opposite of what you're saying right there. Well, I had a lot on a rub tree, too, like they were hitting a rub tree anywhere from like 10 to 2 in the middle of the day and then I would get some middle of the night. But I would even get doze walking by, I wouldn't get, it was all middle of the day, every single time or middle of the night. You had quite a few there in the morning. No, not on that one, not when I moved it. When I, when it was back where L.A. was always at, then yes, that was mornings and evenings. Well, like think of that morning, you're going to tell me that that morning that you are, that Joey could have shot L.A., that those deer weren't very clearly funneling back from a food source. No, they weren't. They weren't bedded. No, I agree with that. I know that nobody would tell you that a cell cam is going to be. Well, you have one I have of my seven or eight that I had out this year. There's not one. That's my point is that I have one. There's no variety of different ones. The fact that one of one is the opposite of yours would say that there's probably some other people that have the same thing. No, that's a very small sample size, so in fact I hit it. Do you understand what I'm saying here? I do. I understand what you're saying. But I guess my point is. I would have had better chances of mine being an opposite if I had 10 or 15 out, but I had one. No, but you also have to take into consideration where yours was. It doesn't matter. Everybody else could have the same thing. That means that other people could be having their cell cams middle of the day. I had some embedding areas as well, and I would tell you 100 percent that I don't even need to tell you. We could go look. I would bet you that the number of buck pictures in the morning or in the afternoon significantly outweighs the ones that we're at, and they were later in the morning. I would, the one thing I'm thinking of in specific was magnum, the pictures I'd get at him. Usually that camera I'd get on him in his bedding area was not till like 830. Some of them might even been around nine. Well, here's the thing that you got to take into consideration that you do not do. That there is, that's yours. That's everything that you're hunting wherever your cameras are at. That does not mean that it is not a thing. Five miles away, a mile away, or somewhere else that somebody else is getting complete ly opposite, or completely different types of deer movement, because it's not consistent through every single farm. They're all going to be a little different. Well, then that would say that this study is useless. You got to take it into relative. It's got to be relative to what your areas are, but I'm telling you, like there's parts in that already that relate to me, and you're saying you don't believe at all, and it's not whether you believe it or not, it's whether you just want to admit it or not. You tell me that you believe that the peak buck movement is between 12 and 1. No, I think it depends on where it's at, because I would tell you right there where I have a certain spot. Yes. 100%. That is where it's at. It does. It does depend. But if you don't, if you don't take it so literal, meaning you don't say, okay, this, what are you saying? Is every buck gets up and does this? If you just say what it does mean is that there is deer up on their feet, midday, whether they're only moving 100 yards or something like that, it's one of those things, because they talk in here a little bit about rain. They talk about wind and how it affects the deer and things like that. I have my own theories on it, and I don't think that they would, I don't think they touch on that. Yeah. But I guess. I would say that a windy day, you ain't going to find deer moving at all. But according to them, it doesn't a most movement or it doesn't affect them. It doesn't affect them. Yeah. And they say rain doesn't affect them either. Well, that one's one of them is depending on those don't care, bucks do or something. I don't remember which one it was. They don't say that bucks did or bet it down and didn't go anywhere, and those didn't have an issue. They seem to be moving still. So I guess my two cents on this is, when you see studies like this, you need every piece of information. It was an on public ground. Sounds like it. Well, I mean, this was definitely honnable ground because they talk about rightful season and everything. How was this study? I know that they were collared in things like that, but what kind of pressure was on these deer? So what was going on? That's also already assuming that we're talking about the same time of year, because like one of the things that says the study found bucks at the peak of the rut were traveling up to five miles per day. Well, I know for a fact that we have a deer that didn't travel five miles per day for two years during the peak of the rut. That's, I mean, why doesn't he? But then you also have a deer that went for and a half years. And so my point is, is that there's so many, so many things that could make this, I mean, the deer themselves, their mentality, where they live from state to state, from county to county from farm to farm, yeah, I mean, the other thing you got to take a consideration on that, on the study found bucks at the peak of the rut were traveling up to five miles per day. They didn't constitute, does that mean five miles from where they typically live or call home? Or is that just, they were doing loops and like on a treadmill to me, the way they went five miles, but never went anywhere where they worded that to me. I would take that as they just traveled five miles, not necessarily like a distance from here to here, as in they were up and moving, but I have witnessed the nine, the deer that I didn't shoot, come, came to the rub tree. I watched him one day that I figured that deer had to, I think Nick might have been filming when he came up behind us at, at midget, okay, maybe it was Colby, but that buck came up and he was trying to keep the other bucks from getting to the doe that he had there. And he was, he had to have put on two or three miles and never went 50 yards. Yeah. He was going back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. He'd chase him off, chase him off, then he'd run this way. And then she'd move a little bit and he'd catch up and then he'd push her back down and into the brush. So he could have someone logging something at the end of the day if you had a little tracker thing and you came over and looked at the computer, it says number nine went six point five miles. Well, in actuality, he went 50 yards. So I mean, I would take this with a green assault. I think honestly we got a roast landcaster online on this because they provided some information but they didn't give you a link to the full study or anything to where you could actually go and get the rest of this information. Yeah, I haven't been able to find where you can get. I mean, there's one thing on here that clicks, but it's, and it's not any of the none of the pertinent information of the study. So because the landcaster online, you guys need to really step up your reporting because it's not very thorough in here. Well, I mean, because we've talked about this, this would be so cool to be able to do this. Especially it sounds like they spent a tremendous, they had some, sounds they had to have had quite a bit of resources behind them to accomplish this. You know, I mean, how cool would it be to tag some or to put collars on deer out here and not even be able to kill them? I mean, they're off limits, you know, just to see what they do. I don't know, but I feel like some of the things that were studied maybe weren't completely clear. Well, I feel like it probably is in the study, you know, but they don't, they didn't provide any information to be able to find the full study in here. Right. Because that's what would be really, really interesting information to look at. The other one, it was in there that they said there was no correlation would be your moon phases. I would say they're that out of all the peak movements and whenever they were seeing the most deer moving, bucks moving and everything that they never found any correlation between there being a full moon or red moon or whatever else may be, there's much more random than precisely two of moon phase, which would be very interesting to hear a lot of reactions on that one. Well, I mean, and also the study knows my opinion on the moon. Yeah, I don't really have one to be honest. I just don't like the only thing that I will say is on full moon, I for whatever reason I feel like and I don't bids my, my been lucky or whatever, but I've seen a lot of deer, a lot of bucks in midday on full moons, especially when it's cold, I don't know why I'm always trying to remember that I feel like the full moon, it's daytime movement is awful or which one it is. I don't know. I don't remember which one it is. Maybe you start writing that stuff down. I have and I don't find correlations like I'll write down the number one, I want it to be. Well, here's the number one that I've seen in multiple states and it is not, I mean, one of the first deer that I ever killed, it was a spike buck, but it happened the same way as it did just a couple years ago when we moved here to Iowa and mom killed a deer. And I can't think of how many times it's happened to me and that is right after a rainstorm or a heavy front comes through, I mean, immediately as soon as you, if you could be in the stand like during the rain, during the last five minutes of the rain within minutes, you seem unbelievable deer movement. I would agree with that. We've seen that. But I would also, that also depends on have some, I mean, if it is pours for 10 minutes, it's not. Yeah, that's not going to. If it's like been raining for a while, especially if you get storms where it's like off and on raining or just raining days on end, the moment that ends, if you can be in there, you're going to have all sorts of deer all around you, probably. I thought this was kind of a funny tidbit. This is an encouraging finding more than 90% of deer that survive a hunting season will still be out there the following season, so they don't pack their bags and go somewhere else. I guess not. I think they're saying that they don't die from natural causes the following year. I know, but I just, that seems to me like, or whatever other causes. It does look like, yes, occasionally one seems to hit by a car or something, but it's occasionally. That is like the biggest mystery in the end. But at the same time, it was a 10 year study you would think, if there is any validity to the seven year cycle of, of, um, EHD, which I believe that that is the case, Pennsylvania doesn't deal with it like we do out here in the West. They don't see blue tongue if you want to call it the, by the, yeah, you're going to have a lot of screen arguers here. I don't care. I'll tell you that. Bring it. Bring it. EHD is two different things. Well, they are technically, technically they are different, but I guess what I'm referring to is when it's emplismatic is unique disease, pepper, pepper, episodic hemorrhagic disease. Yeah. There you go. Okay. And so what it is, it's a midge. It's a small nat that the, they inhale when they're trying to get a drink, they live in the mud. And it has to be, and that's an interesting point because if that was during that 10 year study that you're talking about, and you had a, I don't know, we don't know if we can put much weight on the seven year window yet, but let's just say that that's the case that every seven years get EHD that that could possibly completely fudge that 90% number because sometimes you're losing, I, we've heard 50% 90% moved here. Yeah. 60, 70, 80% of their deer died. Okay. Let me clarify. Because it's midges bit, not, not swollen, they inhale them. But either one, you know, they bite them. I think even it could because, and, and I've, I did a bunch of studying on this a few years ago, went because the seven year cycle that we're dealing with here was 2012, 2019, and that would mean that our next cycle would be 2026. 2019 was kind of wasn't so bad. And that's for us though. It was for like the county over. Yes. But that's my point is that it was, it was localized. It wasn't, it wasn't the whole state. Okay. So, but, but the theory is that, that is when the hatch is the, the biggest sort of like a locus, they come, you know, that's when they're all there. Yeah. If the weather pattern makes it wear, where it's either so super dry, and there's not a lot of places for the midges to live, or the exact opposite super wet, there's not a lot of places for the midges to live, then you don't have a really bad EHD scenario. Breakout. And so, what ends up happening is you get by, and then you're good for the next seven years, hopefully. I would tell you, I've been watching this one now very, very closely, and so far we're good. We've seen 2020, 21, 22, now we're going into 23, and we have not seen much of an EHD breakout around, we see some, you're always going to have a little bit. But two things, one, isn't there somewhere where they say that they're now immune to it? Down south, because they get it, because it's, it's prevalent all the time. So those deer build up an immunity to it. We're in the Midwest, we, they don't build up an immunity because they're only seeing it every so often. Which, because before the theory was it was dry years, was going to cause EHD, right? Correct. Which I think we could up, say everybody would pray, agree, that's pretty well debunked because we've had several dry years in a row now. For sure. That's considered drought for, where we're, for Iowa. Now, but that could mean that it's too dry, and so there's not a lot of places for the midges to live. Because where the midges live for the most part is in like your silt, so like muddy water, basically. So that's where the other theory came in that somebody else told you or remember we were talking to somebody and I, and that one made quite a bit of sense to me. They said that sometimes you're really wet ears can be worse because they're standing water in your bean fields and, and more places for them to be exposed to it. Correct. So, so that's a really interesting thing that, that honestly is what we're, we're stating here is that this all is going to come down to is it. For PA guys, it's probably pretty helpful information for everywhere else. I don't know that this is going to be that relevant to, to your area. I think it has potential to be relevant depending on if they could give us some more insight or some more understanding of times a year and times like the moon, I would think on it could be applicable to all or everywhere because that's, that would be a constant. But other than that, everything else pretty much is different. So this is an interesting thing. The movement of GPS color deer found 43% change their movements because of hunting pressure. And in most cases, they altered their patterns the day before the season opener. They didn't shift their home range, what they moved around less. Also they exhibited an uncanny ability to hide somewhere in their home range during hunting hours. So that's another one that we were talking about earlier would be really interesting. No, is their definition of opening day is that archery season, is that rifle season? What, what would constitute opening day 43% that's a big, that's a big number. Well, I mean, but now that, that reads a little bit different now that I've read it the third time because it says 43% change their movements because of hunting pressure, which that makes sense. And they're getting pressure. And the majority was the day before, yeah. But yeah, and it says most cases, they altered their patterns the day before the season opener. So they could recognize more traffic, more trucks driving around, guys walking around in the woods, they're picking up on, oh, I'm about to deal with what I dealt with last year is happening. That's the case though, they got to be on it way better than that. What do you mean? They got to be on it. There's got to be some kind of natural calendar going on because there, there's no way for them to be able to see a consistency until day opener of lots of more people. I think the day, the week before you're seeing, how are they going to know that day before is finally the day though, if guys are starting to come in week or two weeks before. Just natural progression of the number of encounters they're having with human beings. If a deer is living out there and it doesn't see anyone, it sees someone once a month, let's just say. And then all of a sudden, it sees someone two times in this month, now three times. Then in the next month, they see someone five, six, seven times or now, they're up to once a day. That makes sense, but that doesn't, that doesn't sound like it was progressive whatsoever. Sounds like it was a switch. I don't believe they can read, I don't think they can read either, but I do know that they can sit there and when they're going into heat is dependent on the sun. So I would say that they probably have a pretty good idea of what a year is going off of seasons and times and all sorts of things that they would have an idea this time of year. Here we go again. I do think that, I mean, the, the progressive of what you're saying makes the most sense. If they're switching in a day, that progressive doesn't mean nothing. I think it's what Dad is saying, though, is that just the fact that they're, all they're saying is their pattern was altered. Yeah, I know. And so he's saying that you get, and how many times right before shock and season to all of a sudden somebody's walking under your stand, then there's people in here driving down the road and guys getting out, take a pee and all this stuff that they'd, and guys stopping on the road and spotlight shining in a field. All these things, you, what you see is only a milloscopic piece of what is actually going on. And you're fine. What you guys are talking about, though, is Nick. Just found the study. The whole thing? Yeah. How did you find this? So I can tell people where it is, or we'll put it, you know what, we'll put the link in here for everybody that wants to go read it. And so I'm going to tell you right now too, just looking at this, there's enough information in here that we're probably going to have to do a part two of this. So our part one, we'll have to be an overview of what we're doing right now. Probably an apology. No, I don't think so from what I'm seeing so far, because I think we're pretty accurate as far as a lot of it is going to be super location-based. And then part two, we'll do, we'll go into depth on some of this stuff and really hammer it out. But we'll put the, we'll put the link in the, in the podcast here. I don't know how Nick of all people found it. Okay. Anyways, my point, though, was that, that is assuming that the guys aren't coming and smoking all their cigarettes or driving around on the roads beforehand, they might do it a few guys here and there might be doing it a little bit more. But once it starts, that means that they've got to have at least a day into the season of seeing everybody and be like, oh, get out and change their patterns. Now if they're progressively starting to see more people, I get it. They're going to start altering already before the season even begins. But that doesn't make sense unless they have a calendar, which is crazy, it sounds. I wouldn't be surprised. Well, the best example that I've seen, I'm not talking about a calendar calendar thing, Don. I'm just envisioning a deer walking around with between his hoofs. Well, let's see. It's got three days, Bill. Yeah. I only think I'll say that the most impressive thing I have ever seen is that deer that we found the huge four point antler too, what you guys have heard us talk about all time. I called him hammer. He lived on just one very, he didn't live on us. He would come onto our place during shock and season. I had a camera set up where I'd seen him or found a shed. Then I hung a stand for him and we named it hammer stand and I put a camera there hoping he would show up all season long and thinking, I'm so smart, I got hammer stand and hammer camera. I'm going to find this deer. I'm going to kill this giant deer. Well, he never shows up, never shows up, never shows up, never shows up. November, November 29th or November 30th. I get it, well, I pulled the camera a few days later during shock and season. But is what happened is he showed up for the very first time. I think it was November 29th or November 30th, it was one of the two. There was five days in a row. Five days in a row that that deer was on that camera going, crossing this fence in the same exact place, one hour after dark and he was within three minutes of himself. Every single time. So that deer was not there, I don't believe. I don't think that he was there the whole time and I was just missing him on my camera. I think that he was shocked and seasoned was coming and he moved in, but that would say that he didn't know exactly when it was starting. He just knew, hey, I'd get close to that time and he moved on to us and then the fact to me that was so crazy was that it was, you know, the one night it was 607. The next night it was 604. The next night it was 605, like that he was so consistent on when he would show up and he'd wait an hour. What made you think that you were going to get a chance at him before shotgun season? Because we hadn't paid any attention to that spot where we found his antler. We hadn't paid any attention to that. Yeah. So I thought that was coming through in that area. Uh-huh. No, this was the four. You're saying that you found it there and then you went in. This was the first thing you had your camera afterwards. Well, yeah. When we found his shed, we were totally surprised because we didn't won. And so I thought you're saying you already knew that he was going to be going across there. Uh-uh. I was like, well, you already know that you're going to be pushing it. You're going to have like a day time frame there to be able to make it happen. No. So just so people understand what Warren's referring to as our shotgun season starts first week of December. So he had figured out that what he, I think you're saying is he hadn't figured out when it started. He didn't know. December 5th. He knew it's getting ready to start. Some things have started to change. Whether it's the weather, whether it was people starting to come in and put up stands and make whatever, but something triggered him to say, okay, it's time to go to this pattern that puts me in a safe place. Because for the last couple of years, he had been in a place. We didn't find him. We actually found him on a different camera. Well, that was the thing though, too, is we had a camera that was a few hundred yards away from it. And it was a really strong, really, really good funnel where if he was going that far up, we should have been getting a picture of it. And so as what that was telling me is that that deer was staying in, you know, probably at 300 yard area or less that meant that he was not, he was not 30 minutes away from that camera. I was getting pictures of him. He was probably within 200 yards or less. That's also assuming though that you're not missing him anywhere. Yeah, true. But that's what I'm saying. Pretty good. Yeah. That was a pretty good pinch point where, and we had pictures of him there before. So I think if he was going that far up, we probably would have got a picture. And so my theory is that that deer, he wasn't even getting up. Your chance of killing him would have been almost impossible because where he was, you couldn't have got in there without him seeing you hearing you. I get it would have been impossible to get into on him. And then too, he wasn't getting up until dark or even 20, 30 minutes after dark. And then he was moving. He was a smart deer. Yeah. Really smart. So I lived as long as he did. Yeah. The gentleman that finally did. Well, there's others that are stupid, but that one was smart. He was a smart deer. Okay. This is a thing is interesting because I keep saying this. And now, like, there's actually some scientific proof to what I've been saying, although I would not have guessed this. So it says, you know, bucks have a core area of about one square mile. What? You're just picking and choosing what you believe from the study you've been debunking at the whole time. Now you're saying it's the right thing. No, I'm just going in order. The study was also found. I'm going by like paragraph. All right. The study also found deer use physical features on the landscape to mark the boundaries of their home range. Things like streams, roads, pipelines, and power lines. Hunters have the best chance of seeing a deer by setting up somewhere in the middle of their home range, rather than these boundary features. That's a great point of that. Have you ever said a word about any of that? You ask all our podcast listeners, that's what I say all the time is that these deer have these zones. Yeah, they have zones. Where they hit the... No, that's what I've said. Is it... You can constitute this. I've heard you say the zone. They'll hit a certain spot. And for whatever reason, they will not cross that spot. They will not go across it no matter what. And now there's what they're saying is it's a physical, there's something physical feature they recognize that they say, okay, that's beyond my home area, my core area. And that to me is crazy that they would be, so like it rose, maybe that... So rivers I would think really would be a lot more of a boundary than you might think. Yeah, unless... Unless that's part of the... Yeah, he's within his core area. Well, I have to look at the long version and see if they had one that was near a river or something that he was crossing at all the time. And I don't think that they're saying that I can think of one in particular, and that was juice. And juice tended not to cross the road west of my house. But I do think that there was one or two times I got a picture of him over there, you know, so he probably went over there more than once. But it wasn't common. It wasn't like east side of the farm where he was there all the time. Yeah. I think you could take a pretty big note out of all of this, and that being that even with a 10-year study, it's a freaking wild animal. There's nothing so proof. Yes, you're not going to be able to nail these things down to a tee. I thought that that was going to give me a lot more insight on things that I would be using. I don't think it's benefited me whatsoever yet. Like nothing that I have learned or seen that I'm like, oh, ding, that'll help me kill a big deer this year. Well, that's, I mean, just last year we had deer that were, I mean, so when they talked core area, we had deer that had huge core areas. We had deer that had small core areas. We had deer that crossed over core areas from one, we have a deer that showed up and never seen him before and he moved in and stayed. We have another deer that showed up that ran everybody off. So I mean, it's just so, there's so many things that go into, that come into play. I don't know how they can determine that either though, that they can use physical features. I get zones. Well, I'm just envisioning that what they're doing is they're plotting this with, because they got a collar. They're turning around. And they're seeing a river, let's say, and you got a deer that goes over like this and he moves around and he comes back and then he goes over and he goes back and he comes over and he goes back and one time out of 365 days or four-year period, he crossed the river four times, you know. That was it. That would say that that deer recognized that river was a line that he didn't cross. I could see where they could make that statement, especially over a 10, if you had a deer that lived four or five years within that 10 year. Oh, and who knows? Maybe it's just, maybe to us, it's a physical feature, but maybe it's an instinctive thing to the deer, you know. That was just like, they just found out that. Yeah. A highway is another one that I would think that would serve a road, especially a busy road. Well, because like the one I would tell you is a great example is Toro. Toro, unless you're going to tell me, unless his physical feature was the timber line, that deer would go in the timber all the time over there, but you would never get a picture of them up in the field, ever, and it like for four years, you did that, and I don't know why, unless for him, I guess it was like, I don't go any further east of this timber. I don't know. Like that was like, that's my physical, that was his physical feature, and I won't go cross this timber, because that deer wouldn't do it. I don't know why. Would you think for sure that you'd get a picture of them out in that field? Thank you. It really comes down to the fact that if you're hunting all deer, there's not much that's going to help you besides just learning deer and learning your area more than anything, or how they're operating on your area. If you're hunting, even if you're hunting specific deer, I'm now thinking about it, like trying to find the consistencies all the time is dang near impossible. Yes, because the reason I say that is because each deer is different. Each buck is acting different. So here's the way I would put it. I don't know how many of you guys play cards. I don't play much anymore. I used to play some, but in poker, where you have, they call it a tell, right? When you're playing, it doesn't matter whether I got a better hand than you, if I figure out something that tells me when you have a good hand or not, I'm going to, I'm going to kill you. Yeah. All right, because you're telling me, got a good hand, didn't say anything. Once in a while, Jr. would be one that I would say, even though we weren't the ones that ended up killing him, he gave up his hand by coming out that trail so many times he'd made a mistake. And that was coming down though to knowing that deer. Absolutely. And that's what I'm saying. It doesn't happen very often. Juice would be another one. Juice got it. I mean, we, and trail cameras helped us actually hunting and physically seeing him helped us. And then time. I mean, that's the other thing. Is if you don't know, like someone going hunting for a week, you're not going to have a chance to, to have a deer develop that in five days, you're not going to know that in five or seven days. I'm going to learn it that quick. Oh, yeah. So you're relying on whoever it is that you're going to hunt with, whether it's an outfitter or whether if you're leasing a piece of ground and you go out there, maybe you watch something this year that you applied it next year. That is weird as it sounds. The biggest things that helped me have been year to year, looking back on them because even we just found one the other day that we, I thought that, I mean, I thought I was, I'm right with part of it, partially right. And then I was way wrong on the other part because I have a certain spot that I know that around, like, there's like a two week period where I'm going to have some new buck cruising through and it's not going to be a little deer. Like, it's going to be a pretty, pretty good sized deer if not a freaking big deer because I consistently for years now, it's one of those two weeks that I'll have that happen. That we had it last year and looking back on it now, we're just looking at trail camera pictures because we're all itching to freaking go hunt again. And we're looking at last year's trail camera pictures and the deer has been there two years in a row within a week of itself. And so that right there, I never would, I already, I already thought that, oh, that was my buck that shows up that's not going to live here. And he went on through whatever you might see him once again, and that's about it and you'll never see him ever again. And then we went back and figured out that that one specifically, it actually, he's living there a heck of a lot more often than what we ever anticipated. I think we're just off of him a little bit. Yeah, I agree. I think we're on the edge of his zone. Yep. And I think that's that right there, though. I never would have been able to learn any of that if it wasn't year to year. Well, I would have thought a great example. Yeah. This is that buck that we're talking about the four and a half miles back from his place there. Yes. He did twice this year. Yeah. That's five mile journey of four and a half miles. But then he stays. So that dear, you know, if you're, if you're hunting us, you better kill him before October 15th. Right. He's taking off. He'll have him. Or in your case, we don't kill him before October 15th. Yeah. You know, or he could be then he's the weird thing is, though, is he, he went four and a half miles for whenever, like, I think it was around October 15th. It actually would be on October, well, at least we, that's when we first saw him. And then he did go back to you at some point, not till December, so no, there was one in between there. I'm pretty sure because you're checking cameras and KB was on one of them and he was on one of them. But then I had him on another, I had him again, and then you found a shed over there. So he had alternated multiple times. I don't think so. I think we thought that. But we can go look at the truck camera footage or pictures. I'm pretty positive because you found the antler over there. I would have anticipated that he would have, after his second trip, I was like, oh, he's, I'll find his antler, and you found his antler on the other farm that was, I don't think so. I'm pretty sure, because Nick and I saw him. That's what it was. We're hunting. We, yeah, I know that he, oh, that's what it was. He's following Nick. But that was during, that was during November, which I would expect that, you know, that, I think he's going to be there. The thing I would say about those guys film him late December, maybe even January. You are hunting January, were you? Yeah, it was. Yeah. You know, like the six or something. Huh. The thing I would tell you about the zones is I think that, I think it gives you the best opportunity to kill these deer, honestly, because especially even if there's a saying it's a mile, a mile area radius, I think that is, is what you can do is when you start, now I think in nomad, that deer, he throws everything out of the book, you agree with that one. Yeah. He just runs around everywhere. But at the same time, he did. It was a day for periods though, or was he just totally random? Like when he showed up, would he be there for a few days and then he'd leave or was he just, he was just all over. You might see him two days in a row, you know, but then, but he was just gone. Next two days he was gone and you were like, just assumed that he wasn't walking in front of a camera, but then I'd happen to see him. He had no problem walking around out on the wide open. Yeah. There's a reason he's dead. Yeah. But I do. But at the same time, I do believe that that deer, and again, this is just my theory. This is not a study. I believe he was overloaded with testosterone because of the headgear that he was carrying. And I do believe that we felt very, very likely that he was only three years old. Now someone else killed him. So we didn't get to pull his teeth and check to see how old he was. But I mean, he had every characteristic and we had seen him the year before of what he was. And we felt like this deer is three years old. And so I believe that at three years old, they're susceptible to doing things that they shouldn't be doing because they've reached that they're past kind of being bossed around so much now. They're going to definitely get to do some breeding, you know, and then when you have a rack the size that he did, he could fight for himself, you know, and I just think that he just threw everything out of the window, you know, but this is definitely going to happen. Well, there's another deer that we call cluster and gone, you know, he moves. He moves. There's a difference and there's a difference in deer that move places to a deer and then ones that are just traveling around the place. Yeah. So I, because in my opinion, if this whole zone thing is correct and from what I'm seeing, I think it's absolutely correct for not all of them, but a large majority. Like, if I had a camera on a field edge and I'm getting pictures of a deer at night, right, is what I'm going to start doing and I think that a lot of people ignore this for whatever reason. I'm putting cameras in the timber. I'm going to start moving in the timber, trying to find scrapes and things like that because I don't care that much about where he is at night. I care about where he is during the day. And all I'm trying to do is get something that is backtracking where he's coming from. Yeah. And it's going to take you a little, like you're going to have to shock and affect it a little bit, you know, because like Magnum, Magnum, you do, he had one of these physical features deal where, for what, before we discovered him, for whatever reason, he did not go past that, that area, like it was a 200 yard difference between getting pictures of him on a daily basis and never seeing him ever, you know, and if you just had a camera on that field edge, you didn't know when he was there, but then if you'd been moving into that timber, you would need, you'd probably not needed four or five cameras. It threw out that timber to establish where he is during the day. This 100% goes to my theory of, well, number one, if you do your scouting properly, if you actually scout and you're doing this before, all of this happens, you don't have any issue because you are successful with that one, but what helps is like the amount of information I had on certain deer, I could backtrack like that, because I'd never been able to do that. I'm like, okay, great. I have a cool deer, a big deer, but it's in the middle of the night, what are you supposed to do with that? Well, if you have enough time where you've been out there and you've seen him enough different times or different places, whatever, or you have enough trail cameras out where you're getting them, start marking them all, and because then what I started doing was I found them, I found like loops and stuff where I could literally look and say, okay, I've got a pretty good idea that, okay, he's got to be betting over here because he's over here this time and at night, he's over here, and so you can backtrack him a heck of a lot easier. And then, again, too, that's where I discovered patterns in the rut that are a thing. I have a lot of people telling me I'm a nutcase for that, but I will 100% not all of them are going to do it, but there is certain deer that I had last year that I would have on a three-day pattern. I would know during the rut that they're doing their thing and unless they somehow get distracted with the doe where they're kind of staying in a small area, I'll give them three days and he'll be back to that same spot checking in and that he would do it consistently. This is where I would disagree with you on a scouting thing though. Like Magnum, it wouldn't have mattered because he wasn't very different. Yeah, a lot of these, they're not doing the same, they're not doing what they're going to do from October to end of November until they shed that velvet, you know, they're just a different thing. I didn't get the first picture of them until October 2nd, and I had cameras out there because of that. I had a couple deer that didn't, the majority do not. The majority once they shed their velvet, at least for us, it seems to be, shed their velvet, you might find another pattern between then and hunting season but it's not a pretty short lift. It's going to vary over there. Yeah. And then shed their velvet and find my rub tree. Mm-hmm. Game over. Pretty much. I mean, that's... That's... Well, that's... You're subconsciously doing it. You're still making sure that that rub tree is somewhere that they're going to get to during this day. I do. Don't quote me on this, but the one deer that I did have doing his three-day patterns was when I put that rub tree in, and he would come back to that rub tree within three days every time, and he would go to the south, and then I would maybe, depending, get him on a camera. There was like 400 yards away, but then two days later, hitting the rub again, like almost to the same time. And maybe it was just coincidence that that's when I put the rub tree in that he started doing that. But that one was very... Well, you could use for any... Well, you could use for any... Or... Or I was in when that was, became part of his circuit while... I was going to say, or that's another, that was just something that he wanted to make sure he checked in on, which that rub post, because he was a big deer. So put the rub tree in, make sure you're hunting the wind. Speaking of that, it has it. Put your rub tree. Just go hunt. Don't be on the couch. That's what we're telling you. We've all said the opposite of each other many times in here, so if they hadn't pulled anything from this. And interesting fact in here, it said the deer salivate about two gallons a day. Oh, that's a lot. Oh, it is a lot. So, where the heck are they drinking all the water? Because I would, I've never, if that's true then, then when you use our, our buck junkie. Yeah, our buck junkie. Forehead and salivary gland mates. You probably couldn't put too much on there. Well, just because they're salivating, I would not assume that all of that is coming out. No, I would think it'd be pretty dang potent. Yeah, pretty, pretty potent. The salivary is not nearly as potent as your forehead. So do not take his advice on that. Don't go dumping out a whole jar of our buck junkie. Yeah, and I'm telling you right now, certain bucks have different forehead glands that smell completely more potent. What are you doing? People would be buying more. I was going to say, if we wanted to sell it to you, we would tell you, man, they're two gallons. So buy it by the, buy it by the case. But that's not what we're saying. We're saying. We need to provide a gallon option. Maybe we're doing a bad job of not supplying, not giving them the bottle sizing. I do not condone that. I'm just messing. There's one other interesting one before we sign off. The study found the average of lifespan for a buck is 1.1 to two years. Most bucks are killed. But though it may sometimes seem all have been taken by another hunter, many bucks do survive. One captured buck in the study survived almost another nine hunting seasons. Holy cow. But so their average deer is only making it to 1.1 to two years old. I'd be curious to know how big that deer got. Because that would show you some genetics there if he really was making it that long. Well, they said that they said that the key to the, yeah, what is the key to large racks on bucks? According to the study, it is in this order, age, food, quantity, and quality and genetics. So do quantity and quality and genetics. So they're saying he is number one. Ages number one. And I would say that here in Iowa, I think that our average of lifespan of a deer is not two years old. I think probably three, but I'm just trying to figure out if you put age at the forefront, that's saying the longer they live, the bigger they'll get. I think they're just saying that they got to get to four, five, six years old. I don't think they're saying that I don't think we need to get a hold of these people because we have lots of questions. So if we got lucky and any of you writers or college students or whoever did the study, are listening, give us a ring because we, Warren will probably not apologize for being rude, but I would like to ask you questions. Yeah, I didn't roast them. I roasted Lancaster online. Well, whoever they're with probably. No, it's just a people that published parts of it. Yeah. Hi, Chris. Well, I think it's, wait, we almost forgot a section, Lord, my random fact, oh man. So, and maybe we should all raise a toast to this study for us signing off. Do you know why it's called raise a toast? Raise a toast. Yeah. I don't know why you know this. The Romans used to put spice toast in their punchables. Holy crap, we got it. Oh my goodness. I don't get it. So the reason that we all say raise a toast is because the ancient Romans used to take, it was burnt toast. They would put burnt toast in their wine. I guess it offset the, how bad the flavor was, something. And then they would all, you know, have a toast and so they would say raise a toast. Yeah. And then they would turn their life. I just learned the saying right there because I've never said raise a toast. I've always said raise your glass and toast. I'd say raise your glass or let's have a toast. Not raise your toast. I've said it wrong for, I don't know how long if that's the case. Yeah. And trust him with your dear science that he's passing on. I don't have the science. I'm saying it's variance, all right? Okay. Whatever. And I think that was definitely a random fact that we didn't need just one of those things that you did. Now you know, every time you have a toast, it was from the ancient Romans and it's the opposite. And maybe if you're dinner sucks, you'll know, well, just need to put it, put it in your wine. Put it in your wine. Yeah. That's the opposite of me. Yeah. Yeah. If I had a bad dinner, I would not be raising a toast. I wonder which one of them decided that, you know, this toast is burnt, better stick it in the wine. Yeah. It's awful. In soggy bread, man. All right. Well, guys, I don't know if we've helped or hurt or because we kind of pulled that apart. The last strong line, dear, I don't think that we really, we passed on, or I tried to pass on a few things that I think that were things that we've seen. For instance, the HD, the after storm, there's probably more that we could pass on. But ours are theories, things we've seen while hunting. And I think a lot of that's what's based on the next time that you go hunting and there's a full moon, you kill your biggest deer, you're probably going to believe that big deer move on full moons, you know, and you're right. They do. They move on full moons. They move on, no moon, they move on everything in between. But there is some correlation to some of this on what's happening more often. This study, we just don't have enough information to really nail down and say yes or no. So yes, I agree with these guys, if someone's got some information and would be willing to come on the podcast, we'll bring you on and ask some questions and see if we can get to the bottom of it. But primarily geared towards that study because I'd like to ask more questions about it. Maybe we should try to do our own collared deer. Yeah, let's just, all right, so I think I say raise the toast and get on out of here. We should do everybody else's deer because then we'll have like a 220 and we can't go shoot him because he's on GPS, all right, thanks for watching guys, we'll see you next time. You guys are goofy.