Scent Control Is a Myth : Can You Fool A Deer's Nose?

Well guys welcome back to the raised hunting podcast and today I'm joined by my two special guests again over and over and over again. We're gonna come with a new intro at some point. Not yet though. So anyhow today's topic is controversial. I think we're have three different opinions on it too. Well we're gonna see but it's gonna be a battle. I can promise you that so if you are one of them sitting in your car right now going no wonder if today's podcast is gonna be interesting at all. The answer is yes. However we've got a couple people that did exactly what we asked you guys to do and that was sending reviews. Did they not warn? Yes we did. You guys rock and the Apple people are trying to catch up. Spotify will need four you guys. Just four you guys hopefully enjoy this episode and hit us with a review and we'll be over a hundred reviews on Spotify. So you guys really rock and Apple guys you guys are coming from you're coming from behind but you're getting there and so we really appreciate you. So please leave those reviews. It really helps the podcast and we really appreciate them. So we need to shout out Nick not which I know too. He already went and got sent. So Nick is Nick is on it. He's he's after it. He says it completely agree with the Crossbow talk. We have guys around here that brag about shooting deer over 90 yards with them. Yeah that's not that's not good in our opinion. And then do little 25. We know who this guy is. He's a good dude. He says it's the buckle. Which is here we got this podcast is gonna be a debacle. No it is not. Yeah it is. Oh one of our arguably arguably the best hunting podcast out there. Loved to hear the debates and how in depth they get camp beat the father and son banter totally makes a podcast. That's easy for us. Appreciate you buddy. He's been he's been with us since day one. He's a man. He's even got a raised arrow tattoo. Brutal. He's got the broad head tattooed on his forehead. That's pretty freaking loyal. He's the man. He's the man. He's the man for sure. So thank you guys. Keep leaving those reviews. It really helps. Also happy late 4th of July. Yeah. America baby. America. I can't say the second part to that. Merk. Yeah. Truck. Yeah. So I'm gonna introduce the topic. Yep. So here we go. So I think one of those guys just farted. Which just happens to be what our topic is gonna be about today. Not farting in a blind or anything like that but No because if that was a case and we know dad would never kill a deer. If that affected anything because oh my gosh. He just blows up in the tree stand. It's like a freaking atomic bomb going off. That is not what's your record like 35 yards that they've heard. Oh no it was 400. Oh my gosh. It was incredible. I have to mean it was it was my record is like 40 if that. All right well. So today what we're gonna be talking about though is scent control. How do you do it? Do you bother with it? What are your beliefs and disbeliefs? Number one which is gonna be whether you agree that or not is gonna be the main portion. Okay. Now we can get into how to what we do if we do where we do it what we do with it. But the main the main point is going to be if scent control is a hoax or if it is legit. Okay. Do we have opening statements? I can start. You go first. My opening statement in here this this is a a topic that you can go very in depth with in all terms. I mean there's a lot of facts to back things up. There's a lot of statistics to back things up. What I'm going to be arguing on my basis today is going to be based off of experiences and what I've seen in actions of deer. And my opinion would be I'll just throw it out there. I don't use scent control as far as I'm not like I mean I keep all my clothes in one area and like one little closet but I don't I wash them with a regular detergent. I use regular deodorant. Now I don't go out of my way to like be super smelly. Granted deodorant probably isn't the smartest option if that's what you're thinking but I'll use deodorant and I'm not too worried about it and I don't think it affects much of anything at all. Now granted I will say as we get into this I have some stuff that I will say that I do agree with some scent control options or some cover scent or certain other things but all and all I'm not the one that's going to be practicing your scent control like most guys are. All right you want to go next and you want me to you can go ahead. Okay so I'm going to say I believe in scent control to an extent and that is I do agree there is no possible way I don't care what company is selling what product there's no way to eliminate scent from a human being. You cannot eliminate it. You cannot get rid of it which is the claim that many companies whether that be through the what you wash through what you put on changing clothes even the portable units that are there working like the ozone units which I happen to really believe in to an extent. I'm a big proponent of them. I've watched them work. I've watched them take a scent out of a vehicle. Something as strong as spoiled milk and get rid of it. So there is a there is there is a some validity to what they offer but can they eliminate the human scent completely. That's not that I don't believe that there's anything out there that can do that. So the number one thing that you get nothing out of this podcast than anything else is always always hunt the wind. That would be whether you're whitetail deer hunting elk hunting anything that turkey hunting you can do what you need to do but what are you talking about they have the best noses of them all. Negative ghost rider but good try. So anyhow it's just but but where does that where do you draw the line and so I guess for me I believe that washing my clothes and unscented things and stuff like that. I'm always trying to buy myself a little bit of time and whether that may only be one or two seconds then that's all I because that could be the difference between me getting a shot not getting a shot between a deer or an elk stepping into a shooting lane or not. So that's where I come from on the scent control is I do realize that you I'm not trying to eliminate human scent completely but I'm also not trying to do anything that adds to meaning clone and things like that. Our stronger fragrances I believe that animals can pick them up even quicker. Even more or gasoline things like that. Warren I 100 and 50% do not believe in scent control whatsoever. I don't think that you can do absolutely anything to mitigate it and I think that you and I have a study to back up my where I got my information from and my beliefs from and I believe that it's pretty mind blowing what a deer is capable of smelling and so ever since I read this I wear old spice still I don't change my soap I don't do anything and I believe that I because here's the thing that I think it's really interesting is I know that we're going to have guys on this and I can I I get it that are going to say well I've had deer downwind to me and they didn't they did not win me and they didn't freak out or anything and I would say you probably did absolutely I would believe that 100% but here now is the thing that I've done that is completely different I think than most people is I've gone into a stand and I've wearing old spice I don't change my soap at all and so I smell good in the stand like you want to hunt with me and I've had deer downwind of me that did not care at all and I know they smelled me I'm 100% sure that they smelled me and they didn't care and then I've had other ones that they get downwind of me and they freak out lose their mind but yet I've had others that don't care so I think a lot of it comes to you that that deer probably still smelled you you just you just didn't that was a dumb deer or that deer just didn't feel as though you were a threat so that's my opinion I know for a fact that some of your what you're about to come up with your on your study is going to cause a lot of topic to talk about so if you want to start with some of your points well I think we start with why so why do you I want to go on record here that I was told what we were doing as far as a topic like 30 minutes prior to this so to be able to have something to rebut what Warren is saying that he's got his whole study there well it doesn't matter what study you have a study is going to tell you the facts and the ability of what a deer can do but it's going to be on a pervasive situation actually I can tell you at the end of this there is no guarantee either way there's no guarantee that there is not a right or wrong guarantee I'm I go ahead okay so is where this all came from for me was I was trying to kill a specific deer and trying to kill that specific deer basically got to a point where I is what was happening is he was coming out of this field and he'd come out into this field and then he would go and he'd go past us and he usually was following a doe and so what was happening was the doe was the only way you could hunt this was like with a west wind and so that doe would get out into the field and she would get in and go around us going out to the next food source and she'd hit my wind before I could get a shot at the buck so I was doing everything I said okay I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm going to kill this deer this evening because I'm going to go super in depth on my scent control I had I had two ozone machines running could hardly breathe I had I'd put all my stuff in a tote all the way down to my underwear I got naked in the woods and changed on the road on the dirt road so went and then I made I think it was I can't remember I think it's Kyle with me at that time I made him do all the same stuff he did everything we I had it in like a pine thing did absolutely everything that I felt as though that you were supposed to and could control with scent control and I had put my stuff in an ozone bag done the works right and we went and sat in that freaking blind and that stupid doe came out and she walked right then did the same thing she was doing every night this might have been a different one because it was the rut and he was breeding dose goes right around hits my wind and freaks out and I was like what the frick how is this possible right if I can actually if you can if you can fool their nose then how is this possible so at that point I decided I was going to learn absolutely everything I could about their nose and try and understand what it was to see what I needed to be doing and honestly there's not near as much information out there as you would think on on their noses and so what I ended up having to do was I found this an article that and it's actually I guess more of a research paper that was released from the CIA so if you want to zoom in there it's CIA historical review program release in full 22 of September 1993 so that's the only thing we'll say about is it is fairly old information but it's some of the best five years old and they still were able to prove a lot of this so is what one thing to know 30 years old 30 years old is that a is that a dog has I believe 200 million olifactory receptors which is the portions in your nose that allow you to smell and a deer has 220 million okay a human has five million so we only have five million olifactory receptors dog has 200 million and deer has 220 million so deer's nose is even better than a dog's and so basically is what all that led to is once I read this whole thing and I read a bunch of stuff and this one was really the most clear to me is what I realized was the problem that you run into with eliminating your scent or covering your scent is the fact that we're constantly producing scent and so is what this state's here let me find it now I think that if there was a way to like your closest you can get is like an ozone unit in the tree that's constantly running trying to battle the the scent that you're producing if there's a way you could have clothes or something that would somehow seal this is ridiculous but somehow seal off of what body is producing you said that that you don't know if there's any way you could possibly get rid of all scent and I think the only way that would be would dang me or being the theory of putting like a freaking trash bag or even closing the bag up something that's gonna keep pulling your with a vented deal that goes straight out or run it down to the ground well and I would say this I do believe that ozone machines used to work I think that the old ozone machines that we used to use like 2015 and before they did seem to work but at that time too the company was also really marketing that the the way it worked was that it would attach to your scent molecules and make them heavy enough that they drop to the ground and that that information actually goes along with this pretty well and that it's not trying to eliminate your scent right it's not trying to destroy your scent it's just taking it to the ground where keeping it from from traveling anywhere absolutely getting out into the woods where the deer can smell it and I think that that because we did have we had we had an abnormal amount of deer I feel as though that were downwind and did not seem to care yes it wasn't like you were getting just the occasional one or two it was seem to be fairly consistent I will say that the new ones that we used before I was excited about them and I honestly I think that they I think they made them worse too strong I don't know if it's it's either the noise or it was not the noise I think it's too powerful of a smell that is off well because the sit that you and I had is when I was like I'm not sure that this is what is going on here you remember where I'm talking about no and gobbler two oh yeah yep just we near both watching where we did that on purpose yeah we had it we had it um and and two just so you guys know it's the big part of the reason that that we don't work with this company anymore is because we start getting different results than what we had before but anyways is so we had east and I were sitting in the stand and it was a north wind and it was not a very strong wind like maybe three four mile an hour but it was consistent and we had we had a deer get to like five yards or so and then freak out and we're like okay that seemed kind of weird and but we didn't really think that much of it it was just one really maybe it was where we walked in or something like that well then we had another deer that comes from a different direction that we did not walk in gets to like five yards and freaks out and so then we were like okay there is something going on here and they're upwind from us still and then we had a third deer come by and we turned them the machines off and after that the deer walked right by and so I think that the only thing that I could conclude is it was putting out so much volume that it was even able to get upwind a little bit and that the deer were like holy crap what the frick is that that's the only thing that that I could afford to send to them whether they I mean they they I think at least at that strength yeah that's my point could have been the old spice I wasn't wearing old spice at that time and I wouldn't and I don't think so because I shot bullwinkle with old spice on too so I think okay so here this is so the this is important for us to understand on our bodies right and this is you guys are we'll put this we'll put this whole article link in the in the podcast because I don't think you guys want me to read this entire thing to you so I just highlighted some things so is what this says here is and I'm just going to go into the third one because I think it gives you the best numbers a third set of glands secrete a fatty material that serves to lubricate and protect the skin these are called sub subcaneous glands and they're their secretion sebum there are subcaneous glands over the entire body except for some parts of the feet the palms of the hands the palm side of the fingers and between the fingers and between the fingers but sebum is found on all parts of the skin including those where there are no glands because it flows over the skin very rapidly it is said to be very difficult to get even a small portion of the palm free from sebum and it is estimated that it flows over wet skin at the rate of some 1.3 inches per second so that's what keeps your skin from drying out and then if you're like me as a kid I had what was that eczema eczema yep and they and that's a part of a sebum problem dry skin yep that you're not producing enough of it to keep your skin moisturized so pretty okay so does the study say that there is impossible to impossible to cover the human scent or to make it where it's more difficult to detect because this is pertaining to a dog primarily correct yes so here the fatty material from the decomposition of skin cells is produced so slowly that it cannot be replaced promptly after having been removed by a good bath yet a dog can detect the human scent even after a series of baths we can therefore probably ignore skin cells as the source this elimination leaves sebum the only remaining candidate okay so that would say no that unless you could eliminate sebum which is nothing and so that's that then I started thinking about it and so I this is the way I would put it if any of you guys have dogs at home which probably a lot of you do and if you think about scent control what we're typically trying to do with scent control is control our clothing right we spray down our clothing we may spray down ourselves too but we're spraying all of our clothes and we're putting in the bag and we're putting in a tote we're doing this we're doing that your clothing isn't the problem because you're producing scent at such a rate that that animal is able to detect it so it's what happens I think is that then so if you so if you took if you go home this evening and you stripped down but naked and then you have your wife or your girlfriend or whoever blindfold your dog and you just walk in the door do you believe that your dog and let's say that you hopped in a scent control bath before and you did all that good stuff do you believe that your dog is going to be able to still smell you when you walk in that door that is going to know as you yeah and the reason he is is because you have a specific scent okay so that there you means you're producing enough that within a minute that dog knows exactly who you are and knows they don't identify you necessarily by you can't fool them with that because you're producing a specific smell because you live with them I don't believe that any of the scent control companies though are even saying that they are going to stop the body from producing scent their scent elimination okay scent elimination is also in my opinion false advertising however 99% hold on but so let me ask this though what am I hearing this correctly that you can't fool dogs knows absolutely okay that's not in my opinion how so well you look at some of the drug things that these guys have done and how they one of the things that I know that they've packed cocaine and things like that that a dog is able to pick up cocaine doesn't lose its scent it's scent is still there so powerful producing scent but it's still but but the the the element is no it's not sure it is yeah there's no there's no removal of the scent you could remove it though no you can just put something around it to keep them from and so they use coffee coffee beans and things like that to trap around it so that the dog can't pick up on that well I think that ozone is another one that they found that that can make it difficult for a dog to find it yeah but I think you have to compare two same two of the same things we're talking about a human being something with a heartbeat a mammal that is producing has organs and has all these things that we have to have to live an inanimate object that had sent on it yeah you can go and you can remove the scent from a car absolutely I would believe I agree with that 100% that does not mean that once a human is in there that is producing scent that you're going to be able to eliminate that scent at a rate that an animal can't detect you you still got to be able to understand the fact that of what something is coming from a center scent is coming from something whether it's a heartbeat or not it's still being produced by something and probably still is some form of living organism if it's like for instance mold I know that one is clearly living but if you take mold if you just get where you get rid of that scent for a couple days but if you don't do it correctly the scent's going to come back and that's with a lot of things that whatever it has sent unless you do it ozone while that's why ozone is such a big breakthrough is because it can actually attach to the molecules of the scent and disperse it and completely eliminate it for good that's how you go on your house and after you've had mold and you can put ozone in it and it will actually kill the scent forever not just for because it's actually killing the bacteria that the scent is coming from so any of these other things that have sent is most likely coming now this is somewhat above my pay grade here but somewhat coming from a bacteria or some form of a bacteria and so unless you actually kill that bacteria it doesn't matter if you get rid of the scent for a little bit it's still going to come back just cocaine have any kind of living organism to it though if it has a smell it's got to have something to it because it's producing it possibly eliminate that smell if you eliminate it properly but something like coffee beans is not going to eliminate it and so that means that it's still there okay it's just you're fooling the nose yes but it's not going to fool the nose it does tell you know what and I'll tell you why here one second the only way I think you could they've done the test so you can't do not okay hold on you gotta look it up I'm telling you I've read these studies and they can't that's part of the reason that they did this right here is because they were afraid that some of these ozone technologies and these things were going to be able to make it where they couldn't find people with search dogs that's why this whole study was wrote and so I don't think the coffee beans is legit um I'll tell you what now this this could be this could be legit because if you think about this way the only thing that I think that you could possibly do is spices really strong spices because we've seen like Dan where he's gotten too close to spices like at a trade show or something on accident and he freaks out because it's so much scent that his nose doesn't work anymore because he's he's overtaken this extreme amount yes and he doesn't know what to do that is nose so maybe the coffee beans is that that level of power however what you have to take into consideration with this and this is why I don't believe that is deer and dogs both smell and layers okay so they say that a dog that you can take a cake and put it in a football stadium and you can put that dog anywhere inside the stadium not not on one part of it not on the other side of the field like anywhere in the stadium and then that dog can not only smell the cake it can smell each individual ingredient inside of that cake so to me when you go and you put a cover scent on yourself you put earth cover scent or you put vanilla or something like that you just you're just telling those deer like man Frank smells like vanilla today yeah because they can smell you and they can smell the scent yeah it's important to understand how a deer a dog is the only reason I know that because of tracking but how a deer smells as well because of the layers and that's my point with what you're saying is impossible to do is the only reason I think that's even possible at all because they smell and layers all you're doing and what I'm doing with scent control is not to get rid of all of my scent the only thing that I am banking on is that if I were to have an earth cover scent or a vanilla cover scent or something that when a deer gets down wind of me that it's not going to be an immediate oh there's something here all I'm looking for is to get away with something not necessarily even if they get nervous I'm okay with that but as long as they don't have enough information to go off the fact of oh man this isn't this is bad then I'm good because it's going to save me a little bit and so openly just throwing out every kind of scent there is if you give them all definitive answers it's pretty logical that there's a threat but if you don't give them all the definitive answers if there's enough mixture in there or enough things for them to sit there and think I don't know what this is we've all seen deer that can't decide whether they error on the safe side or they error on the I don't care side because they'll get to a point where they lift their head up they're trying to figure stuff out they're trying to do whatever they can and they either move on after a couple minutes because they're like screw this I'm not waiting for it or they freak out and so my only goal is to get them to move on I'm not trying to get them to come closer or to get them to completely ignore it all I want them to do is to smell something and give them enough reason to keep walking and keep going forward and so I think that using the right things can benefit that it's not going to work every time because you're going to have deer that are picking up on it way better than another one but at the same time if I have the chance to not use it or to use it and it gives me the advantage for them to keep walking you'd be dumb not to try it because at that point you're just saying screws giving me a chance with something else whether there's a chance they're not well and I would tell you that initially I had that thought process and until I got to this line right here that's when I dropped that thought process and so this this I'll just read this but this right here is basically what made Warren say this is just not worth it I am just pitching the whole scent control thing out the window because there's just no way so Rothman which is the information on skin secretions in this section is derived from the Rothman Steven physiology and biochemistry of the skin University of Chicago that's the resource on this one Rothman estimates that an adult produces an average of at least 200 micrograms of CBM per minute okay so in one minute we've produced 200 micrograms of CBM just reread that sense in a different he wants to make sure that we can well it's you you're gonna be glad I did because when I get into this other stuff it gets really confusing so we can use this average rate of CBM production to represent the average rate at which it is transferred to the air presumably not all of the ingredients of CBM are odorist to the dog and we shall therefore arbitrarily take 10% of this rate so some of it is sent less yeah that's why and so they're only saying they're only taking 10% of that 200 micrograms 10% of this rate or 20 micrograms per minute to as the rate of transfer of the scent from man to air okay is that a guess sounds like a guess well they're saying they don't know how many is okay so they feel like they aired on the side of caution yep yes and they so then they is what they did is they took dogs and they tested all of this so they said they said taking this expression as the rate of scent transfer a distance of 100 yards a wind speed of six miles per hour and the values of corrective factors for average conditions we get a concentration of scent available to the dog of approximately 10 to 12 milligrams per milliliter of air for favorable conditions using a wind speed of two miles an hour the concentration would be about 10 to 11 mg milligrams per milliliter of air and for unfavorable conditions with a wind speed of 12 miles an hour it would be 10 to 13 milligrams per milliliter of air it is possible to judge from a practical experience that under unfavorable conditions 100 yards would be a little bit beyond the dog's effective range the spread so then I'm going to skip one of these here so that we don't have to read the whole thing the concentration of scent available to the dog is exceedingly small the value obtained for average conditions 10 to 12 milligrams milligrams per milliliter represents only one millionth of a microgram of odorous material in a in a liter of air so we said that 20 micrograms was making it to air right you know in a minute this is one millionth of one microgram of odorous material in a liter of air a microgram being a millionth of a gram by weight since a liter of air weighs somewhat over one gram this means that the air a hundred yards downwind contains one 10 thousandths of a millionth of one percent of the odorous material yeah so it's a fraction you gotta clarify because not odor less it's odor no it's odor yeah odor is yes you're correct and so they're saying that the most tiny little fractions what they're actually getting and that and that that's average yeah and that's all they need to detect it and so we're getting a hundred yards is an ineffective range if there's anything over six to seven mile an hour wind no over 13 but at the same time we're saying says what we're saying is that in if they that's one one millionth of a microgram and we put 20 micrograms into air we're putting out millions of times more than what they need not correct there one millionth represents the majority is odorless the vast majority of 90% of it okay 20 micrograms is what we produce 200 in a minute 20 micrograms makes it to air yep okay so now's what they're saying is represents only one millionth of a microgram of odorous material in the liter of air okay one millionth of one microgram is all that's needed yep and we're putting out 20 micrograms of odorless material yeah which means also 90% of that is what's not being used or found it also means that they took the amount that we're putting out and just found what needed to be detected and it's way the only thing way less showed me right there is that your optimal times to use any kind of scent control or not is anything over like an eight mile an hour wind you're probably in the clear because they're gonna pick up on it okay yeah it's gonna your your odds decrease significantly if the higher wind the better you are absolutely well yeah but i'm saying that if at their ideal time front or their ideal conditions is still you have 90% of what your body is producing not being detected hold on does this thing does this study give any difference between detecting and detecting because what they're talking about is finding someone that optimal conditions that the animal cannot not that they can that there's enough odor that they can follow it they could actually go to it not just to know that it's there just a detection factor to say well I caught a whiff of x this is parameters of detection okay so if one is willing to make a number of simplifying assumption is it possible to estimate the approximate amount of human odor a dog would have available at a given distance from a man the calculation is rather crude but at least it gives a quantitative idea of the order of magnitude of the dog's ability take a man standing in a field with a wind blowing across his body in a dog 100 yards downwind sent his transfer from the man's body to the air and it's carried downwind to the dog we'll assume the man the dog have maintained their positions long enough that a continuous cloud of scent is present is present between them as it goes downwind the cross section of the cloud will grow larger and larger and the concentration of the scent in the air smaller in rough proportion to the square of the distance the concentration at any particular point will vary however not only with the rate of emanation of the scent wind speed and distance but also with corrective factors expressing the effects of weather and terrain on the width and height of the cloud the earth's drag on the part of the cloud near the ground and the tendency of the concentration to decrease with altitude okay now they're also not given any calculation to thermals well they're saying weather factors right all yeah but what they're also saying right there is that they they just admitted uh yeah right there the calculation is rather crude but at least it gives a quantitative idea of the order of magnitude of the dog's ability so what they're saying is they have so many variations in that that they cannot control to do an actual genuine experiment because it's an animal it's a living animal that you cannot communicate with so there's a variable let alone the amount of however much each person individually is producing which is also a variable and the wind conditions and everything which that is their most controlled variable which is not very controlled considering that it's still in nature okay so you're that's they're basically saying this is the best idea we can give you on how they're doing what they're doing and at the same time what they just said is that they are detecting and that what dad brought up right there is they're simply detecting they are not being able to actually act on it that's detecting is all that is doing is the same thing same reason why deer walks by and picks their head up like huh what was that and it keeps going because they detected something but it doesn't mean that it automatically went to a threat and they ran okay so let's take this into consideration okay they've done two things with this they agree that this is somewhat crude right now they said it is crude yeah they did say it is crude but that's also the same reason that they they are assuming they're saying that only of those 200 micrograms they're still saying only 10% make it so that could mean that 40% is making it or even just another let's say 15% also mean one percent is making if they have no idea how much the odor is actually being released no they know it's not that that amount because the dog is able to detect it they did do tests on that that's in this study detected maybe they could detect all the same okay but this is what you're not taking into consideration okay so let's just say that the 20 micrograms is accurate right we agree on that sure now is what they're saying is that the for average conditions one millionth of a microgram okay is all that's needed we're producing 24 micrograms yep so it takes so it if you times a millionth by a million times that's one microgram of odor material that we put into the air and we're putting in 20 in one minute correct so what do you think happens when they have that one cent and then you add another 10 or 15 cents because 10 and 10 to 15 other cents you could go ahead and do your millionth times there too that you know is producing a cent and you're going to tell me that if they barely need a little little tiny little tiny fraction of what we produce that if you give them enough to overload that it ain't going to do nothing no because that's just completely disproves what you're saying right there because it's a hundred percent they're 20 million times what they need at a hundred yards for average conditions yeah so that means that if you simply put any spray of anything that is some form of scent that means that's a hundred percent of whatever that is going to them that they can get every bit of layers I understand that but they can't smell a hundred layers they can smell quite a few things but if they have enough to overload them they don't have a chance I don't think it's going to overload them and if they if because I've used before and handy or smell me just like I did with that I've done both their study on that both their study leads some to the ozone units that would say why they do work yeah and that is they're talking about building up a cone or a cloud of scent as you as the two variables stayed put the dog in the person the dog was looking for and so that's what ozone is producing that so as it's producing that and it's flowing you're getting more of an ozone which could be what if you think that they're truly detecting the ozone which I would tell you that in a honey aspect and I think that's what we got to get looking at more here is the hunter's aspect on this and and I've used ozone I've not used ozone and I've seen ozone work and I agree with you for whatever reason I don't know why it seemed to work better several years ago when they first came out with it we had incidents where I could not explain I felt like the thermals were not helping me I felt like the wind was not helping me deer came from the wrong direction and I should not have gotten away with what I got away with I have had incidents in the in the new year of ozone the same thing same things happened but I've also had incidents where I'm like why isn't it working that should have worked on that deer right there there shouldn't have been and they detected me so I agree with you that I don't know what the deal is going on there but what I guess my point is is that anything that you do to mitigate helping with scent of your clothes helping with scent of your body helping with scent of your anything that you have on you or with you is it can't hurt you at all you're eliminating you're you're lowering you're not eliminating you're lowering the number of factors and if you then because what what this would say is that nose jammer I'm not familiar with what they stick in nose jammer but whatever is in the nose jammer has the best opportunity of working because you're feeding it to their nostrils you want them to because once it gets there it's something that they detect and they can't get rid of it so then it messes up the layers if that's true it could be yeah but I think so here's what interesting about what you're just saying about the ozone is I wonder if if the older ones worked better because they didn't produce as much maybe because now the more I think about it I think that overloading their system I don't think that you're I and I think a nose jammer I don't think that's going to work either because now when I really think about it if you overload them they're going to freaking lose their shit like just like Dan did that day when with the scent yeah and I wonder if that's why those deer that were getting so close to us all sudden freaked out because they're like oh my god my nose isn't working and they lose their mind because they can't smell it's a theory I mean it could but it is all I'm taking as all I'm trying to say is imagine if if we just put this in a cash currency because that everybody can understand that in one minute they're taking one dollar okay they're saying that we just put out one dollar and that's all that this dog needs to detect and keep in mind too that dog has 200 million olfactory receptors deer has 220 million we have five million okay we put out one dollar and in one minute and that's or that one dollar is all they need in one minute to detect as a hundred yards down range but in fact we put out 20 million dollars in one minute I understand I have a hard time believing that that's not how that would break out though it's one million to the microgram and we put out 20 in a minute yeah you're going backwards though on that well if I give them a dollar it'd be since one million dollar one million to the microgram so one million times a million would be one full microgram correct yes is that right yeah one million so that's one full microgram correct okay so times 20 million correct so and that's one minute if we're doing the money reference here so it's easy if you're putting out a dollar a minute what are you doing when you put out a hundred dollars in a minute that has your extra your your one dollar view and I guess if you wanted it to be even one dollar to you and ninety nine dollars of ozone and take a currency use a different currency cents rubies or Canadian no we're going to be consistent because it's not of their variants no it's a different sense I'm saying that's what you're saying is it's just a different currency so that we can different smell right different dollar currency yeah but that's adding more variance because it is a variant it's a different smell yes it's a variant but at the same time it's producing something that's what that's what we're going off is the producing not necessarily the fact that there's you're making it more producing okay so you have a dollar of your what's producing humans producing yeah the scent is also producing no it's not to the same level of what a human is actively producing but a scent is producing a scent obviously considering it is actually it is the it is a scent it's not like but you also it's going to lose its effectiveness from the time you spray that on it's going to get you take a dollar and that's your scent whatever you want to say that is producing every minute you take another fifty dollars that is ozone producing probably more than what your body actually is but every minute and then you also add in some kind of cover scent so now you say twenty dollars you have if you want to do your math there you could do a millionth of a fraction of those times it by twenty million and it's going to be outrageously more than what your actual human body is producing I don't think it's I don't think it at all I think because it is what you're talking about no I'm not I'm not denying it because this is what I'm saying is what you're saying right there is let's say we're going to use a money currency you would agree that that the nose jammer scent is a different currency it's a different smell than your human set smell correct yep okay that's a Canadian dollar right then you got pesos then you got this then you got that now we need to try to put ourselves in none of us can comprehend this but we need to try right how many different senses a deer taking in all the time if their nose is that powerful when the combine is cutting corn you know a half mile away and it's got diesel and oil burning and everything else all of the plants all the other animals their nose is constantly taking things in and I'm going to compare that to our vision you could flash fifteen different currencies from me in front of me all the like right away and I'm going to recognize the American dollar probably going to recognize Canadian dollar I don't I haven't watched enough narcos yet to be able to recognize pesos but because usually they use American money but my point is you're still going to be able to recognize those things and I think that a deer is going to be able to recognize human as danger and that's the other reason though that I believe that you're farmers okay hold on that you that you have great luck with a lot of your deer as far as not having them you know really start to freak out because they smell you all the time because you live there and I think that some of those farmers that the deer just watch them walk by messing with their cattle and stuff I think they say oh yep that's farmer frank he's not a threat he's never tried to kill me before vision though right there could also be pretty easily debunked going off of because if you're relating which I don't think you really can relate considering the fact that we have no idea what the comparison ratio would be from our vision to their scent but if you're taking that that's the same exact thing is when somebody put you do those little stupid things on social media where there's a hundred different nines on the entire page and there's one eight somewhere in there or there's one backwards letter of all the same things most people don't detect that right away actually have to go through and see it but there's 20 million in a minute exactly that's my point is you put that on there and it our layer we're seeing in layers we see those 15 20 30 different lights all individually are those different currencies whatever it is but if you overload it not if you overload it though it fools us it can fool our our layers of vision you're so what's telling one thing not not what you used and I'm using it against you now you're not how is there no way that you couldn't fool their nose by overloading easily because you're not you're comparison isn't correct you're saying that you took you took one one dollar and put that in there and said find the one dollar there's not one dollar there's 20 million dollars in one minute so so tell me this what are you going to do in 10 minutes what is your point what what I don't in 10 minutes okay but if it's favorable conditions and they say in this I have to read the whole thing but I can find it that it says that that cloud gets stronger and stronger so in 10 minutes you're sitting in your stand on average probably three four five six hours in 10 minutes you have produced a hundred plus million times the amount that they need to smell you and they still but but okay so a couple things one is you just said that in his you said eastern's math wasn't correct but here just think of it in simple simple terms if I hold up just the dollar bill an American dollar bill you're going to recognize it that fast now if I hold up 20 different things you're going to recognize it but it's going to take you just a hair longer to find the one to find the one that and then if I hold up a hundred it's going to take you a little longer and so on and so on okay but but your argument is that it's not just one dollar bill it's a hundred million dollar bills that are all up here but that's what you're not understanding what you're not allowing it to be truthful as well is when you're using a cover cent let's say and you introduce something it also is putting out a cent at the same rate I know not at the same rate but it's it is producing the same you're saying the ratio would be exactly if you introduce if you have a a million dollar bills and you come out with some kind of a cedar cover cent that you put that you're actively putting it on while you're sitting out there or you a wincent unit or something like that that you can yeah you can push the button and it goes off okay that is collectively putting out millions as particles as well so so two things with that one you're going to sit there and tell me that you're going to spray yourself with the cover cent every 10 minutes even every five minutes I've done it with every five minutes no I've seriously tried this I'm not kidding with you I've sat in the freaking stand and done it kept spraying myself kept spraying myself with not a cover cent just like what was the pre most silver xp just sent free or earth one of the two I don't know but there's no way to prove whatever that is every five minutes I don't know it probably was less than that considering I tried to do it the whole entire time I was sitting there okay so which I think you're going to increase your chance of getting busted by sitting there spraying yourself constantly than just hunting the wind that's the same thing with those on it is producing more but let's let's take what you're analogy okay and 20 things in a mate some that you may not recognize okay now I'm going to pretend that I'm an animal that is that is preyed upon a prey animal that everything wants to kill me everything wants to kill me and you show me 20 different images and ones that one's a tree one is a heart one's a piece of clothes one is one is you know a two by four and then one's a gun and it's pointed right at me guess what I'm going to do duck duck or run right because I sense danger I think anything that a deer doesn't recognize it's going to sense is danger unless it's a stupid one and there are stupid deer absolutely and that's probably the ones that that do stick around and like I wonder what that is the curiosity there most of them I don't don't do that and why it's always the old smart does that are freaking out like that yeah so here's my question though let's here's my question have you ever used a cover scent and been winded yes okay have you ever used a cover scent and been winded yes yes yes do both sides of okay have you ever used an ozone you'd been and been winded okay have you ever not used anything and been winded yes okay have you ever used not anything and not been winded yes okay and then you've used a scent control and not been winded correct correct how do you differentiate what that is that's the point of what you just gave us our entire point of the fact of you're giving yourself the one extra it's the deer that's a chance right there's a chance that you could fool it right you just said it doesn't work because they they detected you we just said it does work too there's both sides to it and so if you're telling me right the hold on stop if you're telling me though that you have an opportunity if there's any chance whatsoever that it is going to do the the side of all man whatever I don't care what that was and move on you wouldn't take it that means you're just trying to make it more difficult because what you just showed right there is both sides whether you use scent control or you don't use scent control you're probably going to get winded at some point but the difference there is that if you do try to use scent control you're not hurting anything more than what you would be if you didn't use it if you didn't use scent control whatsoever you're just throwing it all out there that I know for a fact that I may get lucky once in a while but I'm going to be winded if they go down wind but if you use something to combat that now you're saying it's not going to hurt anything but at least it might give me two extra deer instead of none they get by and don't bust my buck or bust a doe okay so if I take a trophy ridge reac site and I have to shoot at it 250 feet per second or more in order for the math to work on the site and that site will that site ever not work there's a chance yeah no yes there is no we won't at mathematically and we've never had a happen and you can admit that that if you're shooting 250 feet per second up to 323 per second no we shoot more than that that and you have good form and the site is in proper working condition absolutely every single time 20 30 40 50 60 will be dialed in on height no doubt 100 percent the reason I'm saying you're wrong here I have had a site before that the react system does not work then you weren't shooting enough feet per second it's a mathematical equation that they're using and yes and my second have always been within their feet per second yes yes it is possible because it didn't work okay there's a kind of malfunction yeah I could have been a faulty system yes the the equation is there but there's a malfunction so it's not it's not so you're trying to use an outlier it's the same thing with your guns can't use it as my point yes you can it's the same thing with your guns how do they tell you how to get the right scopes and everything else is off ballistics because it's mathematically correct right you cannot you cannot fault ballistics because it works right yeah which does not go with any of this because there's nothing that can actually factually if it worked you're saying there's no every single time you would be able to have this variance variance variance variance variance and every one of them is going to be different you're saying there's no flaw in math then the math if math is math math is math and you got a correct there's an issue that you because a human doesn't operate off a math and neither does an animal and and they don't operate off of calculating how much they're smelling at the moment they're operating off of an instinct okay what does a human operate off of I would say a brain making absolutely deductive reasoning and logic most of the time and if you know that you're producing 20 million times the amount that's needed in one minute and you're going to sit somewhere for four and a half hours and the animal is capable of smelling it in layers and identifying each one individually you can probably conclude that your odds of being able to win that game when you are producing 20 million times the amount needed in one minute is pretty dang low unless I can produce more than that you probably have a better chance of winning the lottery unless I can provide or produce more than what my body is you don't need to you don't have any kind of inspiration you don't have any information nothing that can conclude what it would take to be able overloaded your system it's not overloadable it's not overloaded what are you trying to do I'm simply telling you that you're going off of one little thing that can be produced at a whatever rate that is a fraction has to for you to live okay you're not listening whatsoever okay that rate right there is you we have an idea of what that rate is and so that is a freaking like little tiny tiny bit if I can do more than that you're saying that that's not even a question it's just easier from the smell no it's not yes it is you oh my gosh you're not taking in any reasoning what so I am you're saying I would like to have these people come on because they actually can at least admit the fact that this is not a hundred percent freaking to the book this is the best they can do on the variance if you if you when you broke this down and you did it more legit it's probably going to come out even more in their favor no it's how does the dog smell cancer okay hold on though we're in you can't prove that can you they they yes huh they attack it with a hundred percent accuracy every single time yes they look up they have theories and they have no they don't know how that dog is doing can figure it out some of them doing some of them don't that's the same exact reason how Dan can walk over and smell a deer's track and know within a hundred yards whether the deer is dead or not and Christo can't so tell me how there's a variance there well he was trained different doesn't matter he doesn't matter so the other thing is that they are trained to smell something they're going off of dogs being trained to smell a specific scent a deer has never been introduced to any kind of specific scent or trained for anything yes though every one of those dogs is trained okay and if you're going to pull training in that means you can't these two is you're throwing them out too doesn't matter you're going to tell me that a deer so let's let's just take a deer that's a fawn okay once it's two months old is it going to run from a coyote depends on if it's had a bad experience with it yet or not no it is instinctual it's going to run from the coyote because the coyotes trying to kill it it's ingrained in it the same reason that there knows is so good and that they're always going to be that way is because it's instinctual it's how they survive otherwise every freaking deer would be dead by the time they hit the ground so how does every deer just know how does it but hold on go back to Dan exactly they're going to run when they don't know they don't because you've been there where they've smelled you and they haven't ran so you just probably yourself before no you don't know when Dan when you just said the Dan knows if it's a deer not okay no not a deer if it's a dead deer not correct how is he able to do that that's my point you have no idea no you know how does he do that they're assuming that he's put that there's a motor there's a little shot or not there is it and no that is a theory nobody's there there's hold on though hold on so of those of those examples how many times so far have we had that instance where we said Dan is is this deer is not dead how many has he been wrong zero so obviously there is something and that's out of how many now seven or eight it's probably more than that out of the ones that you we can get proof from the fact that they live because we get a picture of what you're saying is exactly what I'm saying because you take a different dog it shouldn't if you're going off of these dogs you're saying they weren't trained okay so help me understand how we try to understand your legit help me understand your viewpoint okay so what I'm saying is that in one minute we're putting out 20 million dollars in cash that a deer is able to detect yes okay how is putting out 10 million dollars in the scent control going to keep them from smelling the 20 million dollars in cash because I'm not putting out 10 million I'm putting out a hundred nine I want to hold these days so how does that get a cash out there where how does that how does that keep them from smelling the 20 million though because it's an overload it's the same exact case so you can only say that it's an overload if you can if you know what qualifies a gears senses as an overload which you can either so I can't that means that neither of you my theory can't you can't actually exclusively prove it no but I have way more information than you're just saying that a hundred millions enough the old but you don't know that you don't even that is a bunch of money they spent on something that gave you basically nothing besides how much a person produces a scent read the whole thing read the entire of your points because I'm not going to you and I'll read it you if you want me to read this they already admitted it right there that they can't prove this they and so that's why they're using deductive reasoning and they're only taking 10% of what they know so they know they know for a fact that they only need that they do know without a doubt that the dog only needs one millionth of a microgram per of odorous material in a liter of air keep bringing that is because that's that is the baseline they do know that that's not a question yes okay and so now you can call it crude as you want but they're going off what is this the most minor but they do know this yeah that's all they know and they do know that we put off 20 micrograms correct that means that I know that I'm putting out 20 million times an amount of deer needs to smell me in one minute all you've done is determine that you need to figure out how much other scent you need to add in to know that that would be stating that you know that there's a certain number you need to hit to be a little overloaded deer system if we know that considering the fact that you just yeah you do you're the one that has said it because Dan doesn't and dear to it too because they've been overloaded with a scent that they don't know so clearly there's an amount that you can get to that they don't understand okay how how close was Dan when he smelled that Dan could be in a building no he was a foot from it foot two feet from it Dan won't go sit in some of those buildings when they're cooking the nuts that shows because he cannot handle it I don't think that yours has any kind of information to be able to state that you're able to overloaded your system especially at 100 yards but you're the one that said that that you can overload their system I said it could be possible that that's what's going on but I don't there's nothing you have nothing to be able to conclude that in any way shape or form so there's no way to even be able to prove that it doesn't work either as what you're saying here though Warren what the fact that you've been winded here's what I'm hearing though is if I took what you're what you're deducting out of this there'll be no point in honey because no matter what you did you're going to get detected all the time no you can hunt the wind you you hunt the wind but I'm saying that there's never a time that an animal goes because I would ask you the exact same question have there ever been times when you've been in the woods and an animal walked by downwind of you and did not detect you um I think that down with scent controller without either I believe that all of them have detected me and they just don't care because I've seen them before where they'll stop and they'll put their nose up and then they just keep going and then I've had other ones walk in the same exact spot and lose their ship okay but but again without any basis without a controlled way of of testing that you have no way of that is your theory on what just happened in that situation yeah to understand I'm just saying to me that that deer I don't think that the one behind it was capable of smelling me and that first one wasn't I think that the deer the first one just didn't care or the or wasn't to the same ability as the second one or the other one has is smelling the other deer and following the other deer and therefore when it goes past your scent line it's not enough to take it off of what it's gathering millions of olive factors are being represented by what has been put off by that other deer so it's somewhat it's off on what's going on because it's focused on some it's thinking about something else or it's doing something else so I think we again I think the study's great I think it proves a lot of things that that I mean the deer the deer and dogs and and even humans have an unbelievable and uncanny way of picking up on stuff however there just isn't anything in there even that is telling me that I should not try some form of scent control whether I whether it be I cover scent whether it be washing my clothes that everything that I do is helping my cause can you can you honestly tell me that anything that you do scent control wise it's actually hurting it's actually working against you I think is no I'm not not a hundred percent against you but I absolutely believe it's pointless okay the question is is anything that you would do whether if I'm running a nose on unit whether I'm using nose jammer whether I'm washing my clothes whether I'm washing myself all of those things can have some effect whether it be the most minimal effect that you're saying in your opinion it's not worth it I there's two effects I think you could have one I would say that the ozone yeah I would absolutely say I have an issue with that because of the experiences that I had more recently that Easton I had where they weren't even downwind okay and they lot and they freaked out that hurt me more than it helped me bar none and then the other thing that I feel is though that you could do is I think that you could educate them I think you could educate dear with say a cover scent where they now associate that smell with a with a predator opposed to just that's a human up there sure are they gonna probably still think that I'm a predator absolutely but at least they may think that he's in here doing farm work or he's checking this he's just walking through or he's doing that they don't necessarily know that hey the next time it seems like every time that there's somebody around where I want to be there's also a vanilla scent absolutely if they if they are around it enough time just like them picking out a tree you get busted in a tree and then they come back by they bust you out of that same tree okay now no looking that tree and see if there's anything in there and avoid it yeah or I just won't go near that tree anymore I'll go a hundred yards around it correct okay so but my point would be is in order to pass on something to everyone out here that is useful in the hunting world your opinion then is don't bother with the scent control just hunt the wind would that be a true statement absolutely and 100% what about you Easton D are you because I don't hear that you're that you're not at all see I have no interest in scent control full full through but I do have an interest in if there's something that I can add that's gonna that has no risk in hurting me but has upside why would I not so that's my right I use whether I'm using a wind scent which in that theory I can show you video of that one working as well as the ozone like ten years ago let's talk about the wind sent a little bit because as he was as you were going through this study I now think I got a little bit of an understanding of why we use the wind sent or I use the wind sent primarily not as an attract and I'm using it as a cover sent they have something called sanctuary well that one yeah but that's that's taking different or glands and different scents from a deer that is relaxed right it's urine and crap and just like a bedded deer scent no alarming whatsoever no no and so what this is saying is that it will build up you know anything that you're producing and that is constantly going off you got to set every minute or every three minutes and that's going off and it works to the downwind sign or downwind side I have seen deer that I did not understand walk over and lick the thing you know now why would they they weren't a lot of your blow at me when it wasn't turned on yet and I turned it on and she chilled to crap out like within minutes right and then moved on you'd also be saying that that's not directly in your scent cone right because if you're putting that the wind sent it's a 30 yards then what your winds are parallel right so I typically put I put mine in line with me 10 yards away from the tree roughly so you're strictly using it try to cover your downwind side pretty much and yeah that could help I know I'd not sure on that I haven't used it enough I've used it some just with you guys but I think the thing to me that I'm looking at aside from anything else there is is the amount that I'm one the way I'm hunting everything now and I do believe 100% that I've seen way more deer since I started hunting this way is that I'm not only focused like I won't I won't play a game at all on if it's a risky win unless I believe that the deer is going to leave soon or something it's one of these deer that lives in a different region and I only have a few days left and I know I got a risk it for the biscuit otherwise I am always trying I will always hunt the better wind I may not go to the spot that I really want to if I know I have a safer wind over here and then I'll do the same thing I'm on when it however I'm approaching that place meaning that because that I learned that lesson several several years ago where we were seeing a hole in Montana is actually where I learned this when I was a kid with dawn we sat in the stand and then we decided we were going to go and switch because we saw 20 some deer and in Montana it's a lot different you can see a lot of them right go into this patch of timber and then we were going to go out on go over to the other side right which when we got to that stand our wind was perfect however well we didn't take into consideration was our route to get there the wind was blowing right at them the whole time we didn't see a flippant deer and I couldn't figure it out for the life of me and then looking back I was like well that right there is why because they smelled us as we were going in there however is what I would tell you is that you probably have a better chance like I don't know that maybe I'm going too far on the routes that I'm choosing to get to my locations because you're not putting down that much scent being it continual right you're walking you're moving and so that unless they just detect where you stepped or whatever you're probably you're probably not putting out near as much scent as where you are when it's consistent but when I'm picking a stand location I basically am trying to make sure that I put myself in an area somewhere where it marks off that that my downwind side because I just if I think the deer are going to come from there I want to set up somewhere else where it's not going to impede with my wind because to me this is playing the lottery if I have a one in 20 million chance I would rather just not even that I don't play the lottery because of that reason right there you can also fall in the bad habits with the lottery scent control the only thing you're doing is giving yourself a chance an extra chance we're just hunt the wind and I have to worry about it well we're not we're not saying that we wouldn't hunt the wind we're still hunting the way like some like some forget the wind just hunt that's the stupidest thing I've ever okay so here's my I'm sitting here thinking of like 10 other things that we could talk about in this I feel like we're going to have to have a part two because people say and stuff about it well you just brought up a very good point in what shoes do you wear because I do believe rubber boots have a serious effect on as opposed to leather boots well if it's containing that scent like you're talking about if you could wear a bubble you make a bubble you can shoot it out for something somehow you could probably control your scent but that would probably be about the only way you know the to me is what I think is really interesting about this conversation is every time that I ever hear anybody talk about scent control they're never talking about what it is that the deer is smelling and where is that source coming from and what is the amount produced and then what is the the amount that the deer needs to detect you I never hear any of those things talked about until we've just talked about it in this podcast so I think this will be a really really cool podcast where people will listen to because I've never heard anybody else have this kind of discussion on I've heard people say yeah you can't fool their nose but I've never heard anybody say break down the reasons why you couldn't fool their nose or if that's true or if it's not true or anything to be able to to relate and look at which is fair enough maybe we try to do some of our own ones with Dan and Christo or something at some point but I think this this study is pretty pretty insightful to the I wish somebody would write this in more just simple terms because they they did make it really complicated because it's a study but it was the best one I was able to find well I think it's made it as clear as mud so I'm going to continue to do what I feel like I need to do to practice some form of scent control do I think that I should everybody else well do I ever they think whether it's Warren's mind dads whatever you're comfortable doing or you find benefit to do that but I'm not going to go out and I'm not going to go out there and trust any form of scent control I'm saying no matter what you believe and do your thing oh I thought you're saying everybody needs to try and no I'm saying that you need to do if you're comfortable doing something do it the number don't let us convince you otherwise the number one thing that you have to do is put the wind in your favor that's going to help you more than anything that you could possibly do if you do that then you at least have a good chance of seeing deer and that means that you have to learn where they're going where they're coming from and why so there's a whole lot more things that come into a factor before scent control or before no scent control before scent period or actually maybe that means that scent is number one you know that that because that is the one you look at the different senses of a white tail deer if a deer sees you sometimes they run sometimes they don't if a deer hears you sometimes they run sometimes they don't but typically if they smell a human bean in my opinion most of the time they're leaving unless they're or they're on alert now they they react to it where sometimes if they hear something they don't react to it if they see something and they're not positive what it is the moment that you take two of those things though and put them together and you get an animal that is definitely knows what's going on if they see you and smell you they see you and hear you or they smell or they smell you and hear you they're not they're not subject to stay there I do that sometimes on purpose absolutely I have like a stupid doe that smelled me or something she just sits there and keeps stomping and stomping I'll try and throw something at her or flipper off or just leave giving her the finger thumb sure that works that's that's what all of us should practice is I know it's one of my favorite things to do I can't even imagine when when a deer's got you pegged you know and you can't move I love if like my hands are in you know like oh my gosh we've talked about this thing or like my toes in my boots my toes I'm like moving my toes around like you can't see that can't you stupid you wish you could see that you can't see that so quick keep looking at me I'm still moving you stupid beep gotta hate those sometimes all right so there you go there you have it we've taken Warren's study which is about as good as the last one that we did that was I mean they're good studies for what they're doing but trying to implement them and place them into a hunting context so hopefully someone why do you know that down there because I didn't want it to get spilled by a dog so you put on the table not where the dogs are on the floor how did you admit here a sense that you didn't want the dogs to spill of it you put it at their level I don't have a cup correct cup well that's your own issue uh the study does give some there's some baseline things there's some information in there for sure but is it does it tell you does that study tell you the listener hunt with scent control or not that's up for you that's up to you to decide you guys will have to chime in on this one because it's going to be really interesting to hear everybody's opinions and I'd love to let us know what your thoughts were before listening to the podcast and after listening to the podcast and if they change it all or not I'm gonna be really interesting because I have run into both I've run into other guys out there that are hunting that say they don't pay attention to scent control I've also maybe we should talk about that one at some point talk to guys who say that there's no need for camouflage you know and just depends on just break up your outline and others that say they don't mess with anything they don't even break up their outline so but anyhow so thanks for what listening and watching if you're able to see this one um and hopefully Warren will put the link to this uh so if you guys want to read this entire article you can and hopefully we've have enlightened people a little bit as to what we do but um I promise you there's gonna end up being a part two as we talk about we could break down different things of scent control um and why they wouldn't or wouldn't work would or would not work um so anyhow with that Zaree's studying crew signing off we'll see you thank you did you do your wink I was coloring I got some work I think you were too technical oh no how about you that one does very good