The Animals At Home Podcast | Reptiles With Dillon Perron S04EP45 (REPTILE PODCAST)

Welcome back to the reptiles with podcasts today. We're going to be doing something a little bit different We're going to be talking remotely to a friend of ours from Canada who has an awesome reptile podcast. Let's get started Well first off. Thank you guys for having me very I'm always excited to do other podcasts It's a different thing in the the guest seat in the host seat of course I record a lot of podcasts as the host so for those who don't know my name still in parent I am the host of the animals at home podcast Which is a reptile based podcast similar to what you guys do except for you know I'm just it's a soul host thing and I have probably less comedy in my show but Yeah, just we The theme of the show in general is pushing her pediculture forward. What can we do to find ways to just be better keepers and do better by the animal? And that's sort of a broad brush of of what I do And he's Canadian. Oh, I'm Canadian. Yes, I forgot about that Yeah Yeah, so Tino's the one that that originally showed me your podcast. It was specifically Which one was it that you saw your podcast with Philip Leitz I think from erud's only And then I saw the one with Harmon from her time both people I follow both the glad Meyer. So I was like oh cool I want to see them talk about their stuff real quick Um, but what really got me what really got me like really really interested in your podcast and why I watch it so often Uh, it's literally my favorite reptile podcast more than ours Um Is your episode about uh, how your opinion on the reptile hobby can't you know, um, yeah, yeah, yeah I really liked that one. I loved that it was like essay format basically Uh, I love that it's like years to develop um, and so I wanted to ask like a couple questions. I'm really excited to have you on So um, see if like with the with the podcast like you just said your mission statement Do you think that that's always been what you've wanted to do or do you think that in the beginning? Maybe it was just like interview style wanted to get more into the hobby and produce people There's some people or was it from the beginning like yeah, I want to I want to try to push this I honestly was kind of both like originally I you know, I started my youtube channel and The first few videos I was doing was just sort of like DIY projects I was sort of converting some like old furniture into enclosures and whatnot I really didn't know what I had a massive change in my life But most of my life has been competitive swimming I was an awful summer for like almost two decades So until 2016 my last of me was Olympic trials and then I retired after that And I had this like hold my life like I spent 25 hours a week training and Then I was just like twirling my thumbs. So I needed something to do So that's kind of how the youtube channel started I already was keeping a few reptiles and I think you know what I'm just gonna At the time pet tube was kind of taking off and you you start to see these channels grow My god, maybe I'll just try to make some videos like I enjoyed you know creating videos and editing But I quickly realized that it was not my thing I realized if I was gonna continue making videos about animals I would need to continue buying animals and it was just it didn't make sense to me A I didn't have the space b. I didn't really have the excess money and see it just You know, you don't have to think about that for very long to realize that you're gonna hit a world at some point And so that's when I was like well, why don't do a podcast where I can you know really Talk about subjects that I'm not an expert in and and you know bring those topics to listeners and the viewers and There used to be a reptile based podcast called Herp Nation. I don't know if you guys remember. Yeah, yeah, yeah Yeah, and I love that podcast. I used to listen to it. I was very early on in the hobby I think I maybe had two reptiles at the time and I just loved it and then it kind of disappeared And there's there's been a few that have come and go and I feel like you know now in the last few years Lots have have stepped up, which is awesome. Yeah, I love that but So anyway, I was just really excited and I wanted to start a podcast and that's kind of how it happened And then I started really getting into the ethics of it and started kind of asking myself the deeper questions about You know, is this okay, you know, or is you know you look at an animal and you're like oh man Should we be actually keeping them in a box and and so that's where I started to explore use the podcast to explore that question basically Yeah, yeah, yeah sweet. I know You in your journey you went up to like I think it was the rainforest conservancy and he reached out to them hoping to get like Be a sponsor supporter of them And how difficult it was for that conservationist versus like hobbyist kind of juxtaposition With why there's so much divisiveness between the two groups and why there's no common ground really Exactly, I mean that they see you as a pet keeper and For most people who are involved in conservation pet keeping is the antithesis of converse of conservation They've just taken these animals from the wild and it's not right and so I was asking to publicly support them and I just say I would love to And part partly for who's me to like close that ethical loop if I can make some money off of YouTube with my animals and captivity And move some of that into a conservation. I would feel good about that and They went took it to the board and the board said no because they have such a bad taste in their mouth as far as the reptile hobby goes And luckily, I was able to convince them otherwise by giving them all these kind of the benefits of what I think of that come from the reptile Hobby or this community in general, but it wasn't an easy thing which is kind of weird like you know, it's a charity So it's kind of strange that they're saying like no thanks for the money like no Money, I don't want any of it. You're dirty reptile money for sure I think I know for me. I so I don't know if you've listened to any of our episodes, but I often talk about my experiences at the OCIC Can you describe? Yeah, yeah, so it's uh the orange center for integral conservation run by the Senkha Florida Zoo And basically it's about caring for and reintegrating eastern indigo snakes back into the environment Especially areas where they are now virtually extinct. It's like the Panhandle in Georgia, Alabama. Those kinds of areas and In volunteering there, I kind of see like the the opposite end of the Of I guess reptile keeping because it's not like and it's interesting because there's a lot of overlap Obviously, there are still racks. There's still enclosures water bowls tongs frozen feeders You know, there's a lot of similarities in there But obviously the goal the end goal is different. You know, these animals are not for sale They are going to zoos as ambassador animals or they are going back into the wild And so we see like the Disconnect especially with the employees there a lot of them are reptile avid reptile enthusiasts yet all of them Are involved in this conservation and they care about these animals greatly yet. They all still have them If you ask any of them, they're like, yeah, I've got a beauty dragon. I've got a couple turtles You know, and it's like these animals are so enticing. It's difficult not to keep them Especially when you love them so much. It's really really hard and so I know I love that aspect of your Of your podcast where you're talking about. Oh, there is so much untapped potential in reptile hobbyists in this care that can be performed for conservation, you know And I think that sometimes maybe that divide between the conservation and the hobbyist Limits that they really really restricts any potential that could be there. Yeah Yeah, it absolutely does and it's true like I like I said there's I don't think there's anything wrong with keeping reptiles, but it is And because the reason you do it is because you're so fascinated by it now people can go down the wrong path all sorts of different ways But at the big at the at the beginning of the story everybody falls and is falls in love with the animal I mean we all did the same stuff growing up catch snakes outside catch frogs watch the same TV shows Because we all had this deep passion and some of us went on to be biologists some of us went on to do be vet some of us Keep reptiles, but have a normal job. You know, it's just it's just kind of a mix of things and I think as long as we're You know walking the ethical lines as best as possible. It's not a bad thing. Yeah. Do you think it's I know this kind of Well, we're both about controversy. I guess Both the episodes, but do you think it's like people who can't cut it like maybe the people become the sorry Here we go Maybe the people that become the The breeders They're the people that can't cut it as biologists are veterinarians, you know, so they are like oh well Maybe I can't do it all the way. Let me go ahead and work these animals the way I know I can I'm gonna intervene on that one So no, Tina. Fuck you No, so this is the thing so When I first started working with animals myself, uh, it was just turtles and tortoises And I was in between doing what I used to do which was music and working with reptiles um I wanted to to find a way because I really liked camp camp can you know, and I really liked the idea of uh Conservation for turtles and I figured maybe if I worked with turtles enough eventually I'd get there and It just wasn't happening for me. I was I was having a hard time, you know Doing that thing having a job etc And I figured okay, what's a way for me to go full-time working with reptiles and then so that way I can get back to that Future so then I got into the quote-unquote Investment animal with your ball pythons and now you know the blue tongue skinks and stuff like that but over time You know as I've taken in you information and now that I feel like I have a grip over what it is that I'm doing I start to think similarly about the ethics of what the of the way that I keep the animals is And I start to think about what keeps his turtles and tubs. Yeah, I do I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I racks Um, and I start to think about You know, what can we do better where it would still make sense in a business Way like where the overhead wouldn't be so drastic But what can we do so that way the animal in turn it you know is able to exhibit behaviors Normally, yeah, you know stuff like that um, I don't know if you know I'm sure the legislation in Florida just gets everywhere, but um So you'll see you used to breed diamond-backed terrapins. I did And so he is uh, and someone who's doing it full-time someone who does it for money, you know, allegedly Pretty well. Brad diamond-backed terrapins allegedly. What are you talking about um, and so he um He is like yep. This is a living example of someone who can work in a conservative Setting, you know, especially for diamond-backed terrapins And so I often think about uh, like with Florida. They're like oh, we're not gonna allow any captive breeding programs for them You know from any kind of standpoint Or a concert like especially conservation standpoint and I'm like well, that sucks, you know like you guys have a problem They have to we see has a problem about conserving diamond-backed terrapins. You have an untapped resource in breeders You know if you go ahead and make some Some regulations some rules in place Some enclosure-sized requirements, you know where people like yoke can give up a space in their yard To breed these animals and then integrate reintegrate them You know granted there's a lot of overhead with that. There's a lot of money involved in that But I think for the sake of the animals that it would be worth it Especially if it's on the breeders dollar if we're like hey the breeders are gonna have to give up a portion of their profits to go ahead and fund these These processes these new Regulations being put in place and those animals can't be sold You know, we can be like oh, you can't sell any of the diamond-backed terrapins you produce. We're gonna put them back you know, so And that's kind of what I wanted to get like you're uh kind of stance on and be like oh, how do we How do we cross that gap? How do we go ahead and get the The breeders to go ahead and be those conservationists even if like just of smaking, you know a little bit is a little bit goes a long way Oh, yeah, you know, it's it's tough. I mean, I think europe does it pretty well They Not across the board, but they do have the european stud book and private keepers can be part of that and they they you know Have a really well-documented group of you know the species that whatever species X and they know where they all are across That you know across Europe and private keepers are involved in that and they're able to breed and conserve these animals whatever it is but You know I think one of the biggest and that was sort of the premise of that one episode that I release that solo episode that you're referencing is I think if we do a really good job where people walk into our breeding facilities and go wow This is unbelievable like I I understand why someone is so passionate about this and they have this deep care for the animals And it's it's clear that they're in it for for the animal I think that's an easier sell then when somebody walks into a room of just a bunch of ball python racks, you know It If somebody is looking at that who's not in the trade they don't know what they're looking at yeah, that's a that's a problem Right, it's hard to convince somebody that yeah, you know what we're doing is okay when yeah It's just to the naked eye it doesn't look right. Yeah, I have had a similar thing when I when I showed my wife Which is my girlfriend at the time when I was showing her what I wanted to get into you know She her response when she saw the snakes in the racks was oh, that's how you're doing it And I didn't think anything of it because I was like oh, this is just what was taught to me I wasn't like a bread and born reptile keeper like it's something that I just came into You know, and I've tried my best to keep the care up with doing it in the quote-unquote industry level But I just you know curious about what the future can be you know yeah Well, I want to make a couple things clear too for people listening a To me the most important part of reptile keeping is progressing your care So if you keep in a tub right now with the paper towel on a water dish That's your starting point. Okay, let's start with that What can you do to improve that animal's welfare? Well Environmental stimulation is the biggest thing you know add some leaf litter whatever it is So I never want to take someone and say like you're the worst person because one of the re when you criticize the type of care People here that you're criticizing them and they are terrible people and that's not at all what I say that's not my message My message is I think we can all do better and we can progress and I was the exact same way Yoshi when I got into my boas I kept them in Tubs they weren't in a raxist them, but they're in basically tubs like I have a quarantine tub right here for a small snake And this is what I'll keep my boas in and this is like a tiny like 20 gram rat snake And that's what I started with my larger boas in and I was doing like pundit squares like figuring out Is going to be like I was just that there's such a strong draw to that it's so exciting to think that you can create a different morph And there's some beautiful morphs out there But in some ways it is a trap because there's way I think there's more effective ways you can use your time But you're right when you jump into the hobby and you're just looking at the big guys you're like well This is how you keep animals. There's nothing wrong with that. How is no different? Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's rough especially like You look at the I don't know if you are aware of the samson prudesticuation. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's a big one But like let's talk let's talk about retic breeders, right? Particularly pythons and Burmese pythons are facing a lot of environmental changes where they're from You know, and it's like granted these people are keeping them in racks You know, and they're breeding for morphs. They're interbreeding these animals are not healthy because they're you know severely obese they're constrained to A flat environment no arboreal space provided so they can't develop strong muscles to climb all this other stuff So those animals obviously aren't Well enough to go ahead and put back into the wild How do we go ahead and bridge that kind of gap? How do we go ahead and say hey Reecher breeders Burmese pythons breeders You guys can breed these animals, you know, you guys have more animals and captivity than there are probably in the wild at this point You know, how do we guys how do we get you guys to get like kind of through your heads to be like We're gonna do this the right way. We're gonna try to do this for conservation promote these animals and keep them In a way that's conducive to putting them back, you know Reintegrating them and getting them to a good place and frankly, I think with like It's funny because when you think when you talk about a conservation standpoint Reetix and Burmese need a lot, you know You want to give them a huge enclosure. You want to give them natural behaviors And so it's just almost not possible, you know The only way to keep that many of them is in racks and those kinds of things. So it's like maybe some animals are just To being not That's kind of thing not pets and not for for conservation programs in captivity Yeah, yeah, I mean the good thing about retics is how large their clutch sizes So you could potentially have somebody with like a, you know, just a pair or just have a you know, produce a bunch But I mean, there's always that thing like releasing back into the wild is less practical Although you work with the indigo project, which they're actually doing it and it's successful Like I know they have I think they have I forget if they've tagged the animals But I know that they yeah, so they tag them so they know that they're actually having success. I think We this last season we produced 97 indigo babies and then I was there when they released the the ones from last year They're like one and a half years old And I think this year actually they just just they just found the first one in the areas that they're releasing that wasn't One of theirs. So it's like hey, you know, awesome. We're doing the thing Yeah, so it actually it actually does work So there's there is like, you know, there's a lot of people say that you can't that can't be done It definitely can be done rewilding is becoming more popular um But with I mean with well, I think one of the pitfalls a reptile trade fell into is that it was the absolute Wild West in the 80s and the 90s and everything came in and these huge animals It doesn't make sense like we don't see anybody else doing this. We don't see The random person that lives in a city with a small backyard keeping a horse back there And nobody thinks that's makes sense But we see people with sawcotted tortoises in their bedroom and you know giant 18 foot retakes in a in an eight foot enclosure and Somehow we got to the point where we're just kind of making up reasons that it's okay. Yeah, and It's not and because of those times we're dealing Uh with it legally today So I what I do want to ask you what is there anything specifically that you guys do over there in Canada that you think would benefit the US keepers like as far as like legislation goes um Our legislation is really different. I would say the most effective thing that we have in Canada is three months of minus 20 or colder So yeah, you know nothing survives here. There's no such thing as an invasive animal, especially where I live like I mean we have stretches of Minus 40 you know that's not that's not that's not Yeah, you guys would die out here You guys couldn't even move so I mean that does help the invasive problem. I think Texas and Florida are Extremely unique examples of ecosystems that just yeah that just to thrive anything can thrive there In Canada it really depends on not only the province but the municipality that you live in like the municipality that I'm in There's no bylaws except for Maybe like you can only have three dogs or something But if I drive 10 minutes down the road there's a whole list of bylaws, you know Yeah, you know the keep animals that are two meters so it really depends on where you are But I I would say that it kind of like it's almost a good thing for Texas and Florida Because then animals can be kept can be kept outside, you know You have people here in Florida that are breeding bearded dragons outside. They're breeding chooled the serda's outside You know they're safely yeah safely, you know In proper enclosures and stuff large enclosures, you know, so at least In Florida, it's possible to give these animals a little bit more the but the issue is is that then you raise the risk The risk is that much greater because those animals you now prove can survive out here. Yeah, and I was like oh well great You better you're gonna make sure they don't leave I love oak or keeping. I think it's great Yeah, I've enjoyed it a lot. I'm keeping some a couple different species outside now I've been doing a lot of care sheets for work right, you know And something that I've noticed whenever I'm like reviewing somebody else's care sheets And I'm trying to like fit some of the information into mine is like whenever I find an animal that they're like This should be in a 20 gallon tank like full size. I'm like No, it shouldn't Yeah There's a lot of What even like the big companies, you know, they're promoting enclosures side I mean, we don't have there are companies now that are doing it That the sponsor my Podcast customer of telehabitat. That's what's behind me is producing flat packs So they have and there's a lot more companies doing flat packed enclosures So you can get a lot larger But like up until like three or four years ago The exotera like the three what is it the I forget the biggest one. Yeah, that's 13 Three by three by 18 13. I don't even know I keep 18 meters long You get a semi to bring it up like there wasn't anything that large, right? So it was it was kind of peculiar that you could walk into a pet store Buy an animal that the pet store themselves couldn't supply you the proper home for this makes sense Yeah, it doesn't it doesn't especially if like for instance let's say You I don't know let's say they're the surrender animals, you know And that's another one. That's another really hard on people. We're looking to get rid of Animals or wanting them to go to rescues and stuff. It's like oh you never see oh, I'm surrendering my Egyptian tortoise You know, I'm surrendering my Ribbon snake. No, it's always I'm surrendering my sulcauto tortoise My Burmese Python my radio slider, you know, it's like these yeah, these are the the reason you're re-homing it is because they're hard to home They're really difficult animals to keep so most people shouldn't yeah, but it's just it's hard because it's like And this is not an excuse, but it's like usually those are the animals that breed in excess. Yeah, you know, so they're reasonably priced, you know, so That's what it comes down to when people are trying it like somebody random is coming into the pet tree And they're like I want to get a pet. Yeah, they just buy the cheapest thing that they have there And that's the thing that sucks is it's just like I mean, maybe it might be a good pet for you But nine times out of ten it's not yeah, do you think so we've talked about this before where we're like oh there should be More stopping points in place for people to purchase reptiles I've worked at a couple different reptile stores and There's very little to go ahead and you know, be like hey, you're not ready for this reptile Yeah, you are not that guy, you know, you're not that guy pal you're not that guy So um, we've talked about like raising the prices no animals should be below a certain amount or having a permit Pet permit process that they have to fill out in order to be able to have these animals at all Um, do you think there's anything that like could work in that department or like would even be effective Well, I think so. I mean, I think one of the I think we can draw on other pet keeping communities and the easiest one is marine fish There's not a rampant issue with people keeping marine fish because they look at a marine fish tank and go holy shit Like that looks expensive like I don't even know if I can afford to look at that the lights like expensive filtration Like there's all these pipes and stuff so and they are expensive. Yeah, yeah, and yeah, and they are super expensive You get close to the price that you're like, okay, I'm not keeping those so I think Part of the issue with reptiles is that when you tell someone they can go to Walmart and got by eight enclosures for 10 dollars Because they're just rubber made containers. Yeah, and a roll of bounty paper towel and some water dishes There's zero barrier to entry to that, you know, you can go set up 10 animals in an afternoon And then that's it So I think if the expectation is to set something up larger with proper lighting and you're adding expense You are making the reptile the new reptile keeper actually think about it like this like commitment. I want to get into we There should not be an option for impulse purchasing and impulse purchasing happens when person go Yeah, yeah, I get five rats freeze them and so I think that would go a long way. It's just Increasing the expectation for how to care for these animals will make people go. Yeah, I got a pump the brakes here one of the one of the things that um I call from like the marine fish is that one is like It's impossible to do that thing with the reptiles, you know You can't go out to Walmart buy rubber made tubs put some paper towels and do it for a fish You know like the water has to be pristine You have to be putting the money into this because then your animal is not going to do well, you know If you really want your animal to live and the thing with fish is they'll die within a week a month You know with the everything's not in Uh ain't go. He's the standards reptiles Yeah, they just don't die They had them on um they brought them on trade ships and didn't feed them from like months at a time Just kept them on top of each other in cargo, you know It's like when you can do that with the tortoise How do you convince someone to be like oh no, they need you be yeah, it needs to eat radicchio not romaine lettuce What the hell did you say radicchio radicchio? That sounds like a spell from Harry Potter All right, I'm gonna I'm gonna bring Chuck in Chuck's gonna switch me halfway through this Sure, it was nice talking to you bro. Here comes Chuck All right, I need you There's nothing better than the smell of coffee in the morning, okay? There's also nothing better than the smell of reptiles in the morning Psych Reptiles with coffee. That's the smell you want the strongest coffee all right We have it for you head on over the description or go to coldbloodedcaffin.com and use the code reptiles with to get your Reptiles with coffee today Listening if you want to support us head on over to modern reptileshop.com or in the description where you can find our merch And the best part is is that a percent of the proceeds from the merch gets donated to conservation One more time that's modern reptileshop.com or head on over the description So this is Chuck Hey, Chuck. How are you doing? Good. So excellent while I am more And I guess on your side like more optimistic about the potential that the pectrade possesses Chuckie is very very pessimistic and thinks that there isn't much that the pectrade can offer for conservation and you know, he works at a zoo facility um And he works with larger animals crocodilians and stuff So it's like he sees the the side that the hobby is not capable of doing And he says that, you know, even if even if let's say the money was there for hobbies to do it There's too much In people's hearts to not do it. They don't care enough to do it. Yeah. Yeah I think there's obviously a pretty strong argument for that as well I mean, especially when you get into the big species I think there is a good argument for because there's some amazing private reptile keepers out there that just know So much like I find some of these people and I'm like you are just an encyclopedia you know more than probably You know any of the hermitologists you put on the table this personal like Francis Cuscaria in the UK is a person That's just it makes no sense It does not make sense how much information this guy has in his head. Yeah, you can tell you how many like The the processes off the spine for these different it just doesn't make sense And so there are people in the trade like that who Who breed things for the first time in captivity and who are incredibly knowledgeable when it comes to just the the life cycle and the breeding cycle and all these different things Um, the problem is in the reptile hobby is that we have a whole bunch of other stuff on the bad side like our teeter totters Not quite balanced We have the Francis Cuscaria's we have the Lori Treenis who are doing this amazing stuff with snake intelligence and snake learning And you know, you can list a bunch of great people But we have the slithers, you know, we'd have the Things that are just like geez it like this is just really not a balanced equation. So Although I am optimistic about how how positive her pediculture can be in a community There is enough evidence to say like it's not going to happen and maybe that's what your position is check Yeah, I think it's it's along those lines So like you said I work in the azoological field I work with mostly crocodilians large crocodiles Um and different types of reptiles as well. We get dropped off all the time red foods and solcadas people find on the road and like I don't I don't feel like it's going to go in a in a good direction especially living in Florida and seeing the effects that we have uh here Where in many other places these animals cannot survive but Florida obviously everything here is surviving And we're causing such a dramatic negative effect on this ecosystem Which then causes our laws to become stronger which makes a domino effect for all the states around us Which then causes a domino effect to even other countries Whenever they see things like that are happening here um, but like you said, I know a lot of people that Know way more than a lot of herpithologist for example, how a friend that goes out herping and he can find almost any Reptile out there like he goes out he looks at the sky looks at the temperatures and goes We can find this three species and on our way there we find those three species just like he said we would And whenever he finds certain animals that haven't been seen in years Literally the government asked him To get samples from that animal to be turned in because they can't find those animals But yeah, absolutely we have those people we have people that are super intelligent We have people that know more than the the people higher up, but a lot of those people are Under a rock pretty much in comparison to The other people that are just breeding to breed right so the limelight they're on social media Yeah, yeah, the ones that they ones that are breeding like and it's not a bad thing I'm not saying it's a bad thing to breed like morphs, but when it comes to conservation and and The world that real world of animals which is not in cages the real world of animals is out there. It does nothing Uh hybridizing and things like that too. Yeah. Well, there is a There's a trap that reptile keepers will fall into where they say um I'm practicing conservation and they say it conservation what's this the slogan is conservation through commercialization or whatever the the slogan is and it's just That's actually just wrong, you know, like even you know a good example is the The crest of gecko is that example that everybody brings up to like until 1994 everybody thought they were extinct and now look at They're all of the place. Yeah, they're all over the place, but they they also weren't extinct. They weren't extinct You know, like they were interesting. It was their issue with them. No, they're the population is just a stable That everyone's we just didn't know that they were there and now they just have to be in every 12-year-old's room Which is interesting, but it's not it's not a feather in our cap as far as conservation goes Yeah, that is just lack of of Research in that area. Yes, and then the pet trade didn't bring the animal bag Like a lot of people put that on their shoulders, but the pet trade did nothing to bring the animal quote-unquote back Yeah, it was it was yeah, it was the area. Yeah, there wasn't any reinterpreted animals. No, no The animal was already there like it caused nothing, but people like to to use the word Conservation to promote themselves as if they're doing something when they're actually not like yeah You did nothing you're bringing a couple more so a couple lizards in your room, but you you did nothing for that Like and it's not it's not that it's wrong to breed for morphs and it's not wrong to breed for for The money you want, but you can't also call it conservation because it isn't yeah I think the best we can get for the most part although you know like the integral project that's conservation That's almost nobody doing that absolutely. Yeah, you know I think the best we can call is preservation There's some incredible projects out there where people bringing in wild-cut bloodlines that have That are legitimately endangered in the wild and we're working with those keeping the the genetics stable and not Inbreeding in those types of things. Yeah, that's a pretty rare person in the hobby. It does happen and those I love those examples I talked to people like that all the time. I love to pick their brains I think that's I think if anybody wants to jump into a preservation project They should find a part of the world that's you know hurting and maybe you know pick up a project but yeah, the we do overuse conservation and Yeah, the only way you can participate in conservation is what I do and I donate real dollars to a conservation to do the work for me Because I'm not doing it, you know, I'll take some money like yesterday I donated I think it was a $275 to the Amazon Rainforest Conservancy Like was it in my bank? They take it and then they can do the conservation work because that's what they do That is real that is the only real way to do it Yeah, so I mean, I think there's potential there I think I think if that becomes a message that people like okay, maybe you donate five dollars a month to a conservation Especially if you're doing a breeding project. Yeah, you'd find something to you know Angle your money towards and you wouldn't even notice, but we could say hey look the reptile trade Just don't you know raised 40,000 dollars across the board for conservation. That's pretty amazing I feel like I've said this before where that that idea of donating to conservation and helping conservation While at the same time keeping these animals care help us even legally for example Like hunting like trophy hunting the only reason they get to do those things is because their excuse is We have to pay for the conservation of this animal first That's why those people cannot be touched It's almost like a shield right where people go out there and shoot an elephant and people are mad about it You can try everything you want but every time they try to take them down their excuse is Most of our money goes to conservation now whenever they come for the pet trade We cannot do that because we don't do that. It's a lie. Yeah, I talked to Chandler common ash from like his wild world About like we were at the the town of reptile expo here in Florida and I was like listen Can you imagine like that expo gets thousands of people you know And I'm like can you imagine if from every ticket sale one dollar had to go to FWC Had to go to you know the world wildlife fund had to go to a conservation organization The amount of conservancy any of that or if every seller every breeder every every Booth had to go ahead and donate some of their proceeds to be like hey We're gonna go ahead and donate this much to conservation like and then for every sale everyone out of their pockets It's not gonna give this extra you know like that's so much extra to go ahead and be like yes We actually do something that makes our industry so much stronger to like whenever legislation comes for us You can literally go hey look at the millions of dollars. We've put in us an industry Yeah for the conservation of the lands that we're protecting in our area But we can't do that because nobody wants to do it on our Before on the podcast we we have this term for KFC Yeah, cuz I couldn't say FWC or or us arc. I don't know And so it's basically like like an AZA it the zoos across the US United States have the American Zoological Association for Aquarium so zoos and whatever. Yeah, whatever it's called And so we've we've had this discussion about oh is there any way to develop an AZA type organization for Readers oh keepers for conservation. Yeah, yeah, that's when we decided KFC was gonna be So we're like Where we would do stud books on every imported species where we would have Certain people being able to be involved with their local game organizations for reintegration, you know Of different indian species or whatever and like and that's so hard to get off the ground You know, but at least with the AZA they did it. Yeah, and even they did it properly So it's in any way to do it for obvious for the lectured even without AZA too like the I'm in the zoological field and where I'm at is not AZA But we have a an endangered species of crocodile called the orinococrocadile from Venezuela and Colombia We're part of a project where the babies that are that hatch out in captivity, which is already hard enough Get to go back out to Venezuela and be released into the wild like those projects are not only for AZA But these are also animals. No, it's a single man that owns them I forgot his name, but he owns all the orinococos He spread them throughout the United States and other countries Then if anybody is able to breed them, which where I work out became the fourth place to ever do it Uh in in the US The babies get to go back out into the wild so AZA just had an adventure an advantage on going into that project head on And of course probably more money to get into that and more people trying to get into that route where other people really I feel like everybody else is just on some I want to make money. I don't care about the rest. That's how I feel about it But you've had people on your uh podcast that you've interviewed and stuff that I feel definitely would be involved in these projects They would give up uh Parts of their space for the conservation of a specific species uh especially species that they can specialize in You know if Philip Leitz uh is given some endangered uremastics like that's the guy that's the guy to give it to you know more if um Some people were given specific species of tortoises or whatever um so like how do we how do we start How do we get this project off the ground of development in this organization? Where we as reptile keepers can be can self-regulate ourselves and um actually have something to show for it Well, I think you guys have basically hit the nail in the head I think they're what you're identifying is the other lack of professionalism That's within our trade within our community. I mean like using the word trade to start the reptile community her pediculture in general And I think a lot of it started because of how our this hobby began, you know like it is Especially in Florida the Miami situate like the yeah the way that this hobby is built on like Criminal organizations essentially, you know, so it's a very strange Hobby to be a part of now that we're so far down the road and because of that there's a lot of People doing illegal things so there's no need for professionalism because a lot of it's under you know If you're stuffing cocaine up uh Of Boa's a colloca you're not You know you're not doing it. Yeah, you're not interested Yeah, you you've read the book So yeah, um lizard king Yeah I've seen some of these people They're down there. So I think that is the answer though. I think the answer is becoming more professional creating um Some sort of stud book Just having this air of of Organization which we just do not have right now and I think there's a few things like a We're in wild importing you know are importing too many wild caught animals right now for us to even stand on Conservation at all, you know, it just doesn't yeah, you can't you can't you do quite the opposite yeah Exactly and the other thing and this is a a premise that I've mentioned on my podcast a few times is I always say Imagine you're in a courtroom and you're defending her pediculture and you have your file folder full of all the evidence for why we should be defending it I hope that when you open that thing you don't just have a rack full of ball python morphs And if that is your evidence then we're screwed because there's nothing in that that's tangible for anybody else Other than the person that's doing it or the people that are interested in that and so somehow We've got down this path of like you said eager for money people are really wanting to just get rich fast. I think the Morph market fooled a lot of people there. I mean it's just an example of how people can lose money in our hobby Where you can find examples like that across all places, you know, whether it's you know, I don't know There's all sorts of sham businesses out there where a few people do really well And everybody else pays for those people to do really well while chasing that dream And that's kind of where we are and like I There's some some beautiful morphs out there. So there's some really interesting morphs But it's it's this like gambling mindset that I think we're stuck in and So I think moving on from that having this organization Organ you know being more organized so things are tracked better We're adding something to conservation is the answer. But how do you implement that? I don't know. There's a lot of old school people that hate everything we've said in this podcast. Yeah So I've been told before it like oh you can't speak on what you're speaking on because It would China negative light. I'm like no, it's it's reality. It's the truth for people say like oh, you're too young Like we're we're under 30 right here. No, no, no, you're too young. It's like what maybe you're right Maybe the whole heads aren't allowed. Yeah, I know I sometimes literally say on under podcasts like I can't wait for the old heads to die Like I've literally set that before because I'm like it's just the things I see sometimes in here about I'm just like How and and then other thing like it's also I think sometimes like when it comes to to pets and animals Like people do love animals, but I don't think they'd love animals. They just love animals in cages Like for me. I wanted to breed ball pythons That's how I started when I was like 19 years old and then I started going outside and seeing how the animals lived The ball pythons Yeah, but I started seeing like different behaviors that I could not see in a in a rack or in a tub and I'm like Oh, wow, like I'm stopping these animals from doing all this and then I say those things out loud and then everybody hates me for it and it's like Like don't you guys see yeah, like why the disconnected like you guys love the animals in cages But learn about the things that are outside as well like how these animals live go outside and They it doesn't matter if it's the species you have there's something wherever you are outside that you can watch and learn from and be like Okay, these animals might need some more in captivity and people don't do that because that's what they're in Yeah, I always say if you don't if you don't look at your animals and feel guilty for keeping them in captivity You're probably not thinking about the care deep enough because you could always look at your enclosure and go Okay, this is too small the lighting's not perfect You know, what else can I add to this enclosure? You know nothing is changing this enclosure in a couple of months Like obviously nature is constantly changing it yeah, it's like the animals used to this now um So that there's That's why it does really blow my mind when someone will just keep you know hundreds of snakes in a in a rack system You start to wonder do they have the passion for the animal or is it just a passion for something else because It's not hard to see how interesting and exciting it would be to create breeding plans and to cut eggs and to find the morphs that you Planned out five years beyond like I get that That's I understand why someone would be addicted to that and have fun doing that and push your skill set and make money But again, it's it's why it's it's animals. It's live animals. Yeah, so we still look at yeah, it's a living creature So you still have to pause and go okay, this is this okay And I think we're hitting the points where it's like no, no, it's we we now know enough about these animals that they're not just Mindless idiots, which is what I think we thought for a long time Especially snakes and I always say that I think snakes got the bad deal because they don't have arms or legs like they can't do anything Like so they just it's hard for them to manipulate an environment and we don't recognize The intelligence as easily then we would an animal that has like arms and legs For sure for sure, and so like you watch a tree monitor dig its finger through this a brand you know bark to grab something You're like oh look at these digging for food, but we don't recognize it in snakes But they are intelligent, you know, evolutionarily they're actually not that different besides the fact that they don't have arms or legs But because of that we allow ourselves to keep them in a way that That just doesn't make sense We got to start this organization. We got to figure it out. We got to get a list of people. We got to start stud books Everything the whole thing We got to do it, you know, it just takes it just takes someone to start it, you know, so Uh, we appreciate you coming on the pond man having the talks. I'm glad we see almost like I completely That was crazy. That was great. Not many people have this this mindset a lot of people that I end up talking to Usually already opposite It's pretty nice. I'm good, man. We're gonna form KFC. We're gonna do it. KFC. I like it I'm gonna be happy to be involved. I think it's the way I do think it's the way forward and And anyway, thank you guys so much for for bringing that show. This is awesome I love chatting with you guys and we'll have to do another one again in the future For sure. I like it. Appreciate it, bro. I'll see you