Who What Wear with Hillary Kerr: Jenna Lyons on LoveSeen, Interior Design, and the New Era of The Real Housewives

Welcome to Who Up Where With Hillary Kerr, your direct line to the designer's stylist, beauty experts, editors, and taste makers who are shaping the ever-evolving world of fashion. I'm your host, Hillary Kerr, and today I'm joined by fashion industry icon designer, founder of Love Scene and newly-annoyed Real Housewife, Jenna Lyons. In 2020, Jenna joined me on our other pod, Second Life, to walk me through her incredible career from the 27 years she spent leading Jay Crew to the launch of Love Scene, her direct to consumer line of faith eyelashes. Little did we know at the time that she'd soon be breathing new life into a beloved franchise by joining the cast of the Real Housewives of New York reboot. Jenna's here to fill us in on all of her latest projects, including the full story of how she entered the bravo sphere in the first place. It's all coming up on Who Up Where. All right, Jenna, I'm so excited to have you back. You joined me on Second Life back in 2020. I can't believe it was that long ago. We talked about, yes, your time at Jay Crew, and then how that moved into Love Scene and how that moved into your HBO show, Stylish with Jenna Lyons, and I'm very excited to catch up on everything that has been going on, specifically the Jenna Sons that is happening with the Real Housewives of New York, yes, but I also want to talk about all of your personal projects. So, let's start out with Love Scene. What is new and noteworthy in the world of Love Scene? I mean, what I never anticipated, but it's not that surprising as the experience of doing tutorials. I'm looking through my DMs and a lot of people were saying, hey, I'm so scared to put them on. I don't know what I'm doing. So I was like, well, why don't I help people because it doesn't take that long? And so, I announced that I would do a tutorial personally with you if you bought them and just send a proof of purchase from Target, and I'm booked through the end of October right now. Dang! I've been doing these 10 minute tutorials. These people are people who've never tried. They've been scared, and they're like, oh, the lash wall is not for me. So that's been really fun, because I feel like it's really similar to what I was doing at J-Crew. Speaking of which, so I remember we spoke about the first time you saw something that you had designed at J-Crew in the wild and how that felt. Yeah. Now seeing this response to Love Scene, which is really overwhelming and tremendous, it's certainly on my feed constantly, does that feel different for you? To me, it feels a little bit like they're both highly wearable, highly desirable products that, again, take a little of the fear out of whether it's fashion or lashes. But since it's yours in a different way, does that feel different, or is it just creation in the wild, is creation in the wild? I'm just an interesting question, and when I think about it, the fact butter is, it doesn't really feel different. I think I felt the same amount of pride and excitement when someone wore something that why they're myself or the team had created, as I do now, you know, I didn't do anything by myself. I didn't do Love Scene by myself, and I never did J-Crew by myself. So I'm a piece and a part of this thing that comes together, and so yeah, I feel a sense of pride for myself and for all the people who are involved in creating the clothes and the lashes. Oh, I love that. So we're about three years in. Can you tell me about some of the most significant lessons that you've learned, whether it's about yourself or about the beauty industry, or about this team, or about social, or about anything, because you know so much. But I feel like this has got to have its own level of learning curve. Yeah, I mean, I think I've learned a ton, and like we could spend an entire hour talking about the things I've learned, all the mistakes I've made, there are many. I think the biggest thing is I grew up in a world where you were touching things. It was a physical experience primarily, and even though you could order online, we had many stores. There was an opportunity for the customer to go in and touch, and they wanted to. I learned business that way. I learned in a totally different era. And now everything is visually online. So everything from like, for instance, my biggest mistake was the packaging. The very first iteration of the packaging, I have this glossy L on the outside. And when you hold it up in front of a camera, you can't see it. It was very subtle. I thought it was very chic, and like no one knows what that was. You settled your way out of the brand moment, and yeah, I did. And so that was a big one. I think the other really big mistake I made is I got the team way too big, too fast. I think I came from a world where everyone's job was very specific, and we thought we were going to go quickly. We also then got slammed with a pandemic, and so we had to really downsize the team. And when you start doing that, when people have really specific jobs, all of a sudden, you're looking at people, and a lot of us didn't know what we were doing, myself included. And so that was really a huge learning curve to understand people who have come up in a small business, have a totally different sort of capacity for flexing and bending and doing other things. Whereas people who come from a very specific role, it's harder, not because of any fault of their own. It's just they're just not used to it. So you're asking someone to do something they may not necessarily feel comfortable with, or I also didn't necessarily know how to direct. I thought about that all the time. Like you go from having to wear a thousand different hats, and then slowly as time goes on in theory, you wear fewer hats and your role focuses. Then you're also like not touching the things that you might have loved as much. Yeah, infrastructure is a bitch, certainly is, but she's so necessary. But oh, man, she's annoying. So I also love the fact that your love of interiors and interior's work is still very much a part of your life. We have gotten to see so much of your Soho apartment on the real housewives. You also have another vehicle with the expert. So Jake Arnold, I've known for years and Adore, we just spoke recently about the expert. Can you talk a little bit about your involvement with the platform and how you got introduced in the first place and what it's felt like? I mean, I think the idea is phenomenal. It's kind of like a stylist, you know, some people go into Bloomingdale's or an even Marcus and they work with a salesperson there to say, here's what we've got. These are the best items and what are you working with? Oh, this would look good on you. Nothing else exists like that for the home. You either can afford a decorator or you can't and there's really no middle ground. And so what the expert does is gives you that middle ground. It allows you to book an appointment so you can have an hour with me. You can have 10 hours with me. Some people end up doing extensive projects with some people I see once and never see again. And it's everything from I need help with the layout. I'm just not sure which direction to go or I really want this look. How do I get it? People are making big purchases. They're purchasing a couch. They're purchasing a rug. And sometimes we're in the neighborhood of 15 grand and they want someone who they trust to say, yeah, I think that's great. Or say, I think you should look at X. Have you seen this? And that's pretty remarkable. I love doing it. It's so fun. You know, it's very connected. It's a little bit like these tutorials they do at the island. It's like a talk to people and I think you said it earlier. My old job, I was so disconnected from the process because my job was so big. And I spent a lot of time doing more strategy work and process and sitting in an HR meeting and a budget meeting. I was like, I want to talk to people and touch fabrics and touch things. And so it got me back to that experience, which I love. What kinds of questions do you get the most through the expert? I mean, I've gotten some date requests, which is still a shock of. I've had people want me to look at their website because they're starting a business. And I'm like, OK, it's not really what I'm here for, but you paid for it. Shoot your shot. I know. OK, most of it is really about layout and where to start. Most people are overwhelmed. A lot of people are redoing a living room and just wanting guidance of how to get a look. So whether it be the right bed, the right couch, the right rug, the right coffee table, getting anchor pieces, that's a big one. And then layout, would you recommend knocking down this wall? I'm like, absolutely knock every wall down you can. I've had some people take me on house tours where they're buying a house and they just wanted to walk the house with them before they purchase. Have a realistic and fabulous. It's amazing. I love it. How do you know when you are interested in and feel comfortable with working on a larger project with someone in the design world? Because like, I get the one-offs. But if someone's like, oh, here's this bigger project that I'm interested in. How do you assess, like, yes, I think this makes sense. For me, financially, time-wise, aesthetically, all of it. I learned some really valuable lessons early on and it's, I'm sure you've heard this before. It's like, if you want help, it's $500. If you want me to do it, it's $100. I can work much more quickly when I can make decisions. It's very hard when people want to be very involved. It takes too much time and oftentimes, you will want to prove the thing individually. But I try to explain to people, it's like a Thanksgiving dinner table. If you take one fork or one plate or a butter dish and you look at that thing on its own, it doesn't really tell you a story. But if you look at a beautifully set table and it feels magical and the lights are twinkling and it's got candles and everything smells great, it looks beautiful. I can't work on the one-off approval. I will really only do projects where someone wants to give me pretty much control. Do you have plans for expansion in this area? I want to know when my collab is coming up. I want to know when I'm going to the Jenna Lyons designed hotel. I want Jenna at El Cosmic Out. What is the next version of this that you are considering? I worked on a hotel for three years and unfortunately, the people who were developing the hotel pulled out during the pandemic had kind of got shut down, which was a bummer. But that's okay. I got to do it, which was fun. I'm doing a lot of other consulting work. I consult with Rockefeller Center, which has been super fun. I have a line of furniture at Roland Hill. My Laudie lamp is doing incredibly well, so we're going to go back and add more pieces to that. I don't know if I'm going to do a big, gentle line thing. I think I just don't want to end up on sale is really what it comes down to. I remember when I was at J. Crane Verde's, can we name this after you? I'm like, no. I don't want to be on the sale rack. I don't want to have too many things of my name attached. I get that. But I feel like there's, again, to go with the Jenna Sans. The Jennifer's would be a really great immersive experience where it's like a Hillary. There's the love scene, the holiday pop-up, but it's all your world that you curate, just saying. Okay. Thank you. Do you want to help me? Yeah. Actually, we could sell that for sure. Okay. Great. I'll send the contracts later. I love it. I send over the contracts. I think it would be fun too. And you know, bandwidth is a big issue. And also, I'm really enjoying myself because I'm getting to pick and choose. I was so overloaded when I was at J. Crane. I was so unfulfilled all the time. And it wasn't until I stopped working, and then I've been able to do it back in that and I realized that I need a much deeper level of balance at this point in my life. It was amazing. And I had an incredible run, and I'm deeply grateful for everything I got to experience. But I was tired. I think it was just emotional and output. It wasn't even like quality output at that point. I think I was just unempty. Yeah. Well, I'm glad that you have returned to your best self in this way, and you have given yourself enough time and space to actually enjoy all of it in a different way. Speaking of enjoying, like the rest of the world, I am enjoying. Look, I'm a long time, Bravo Head, I love the housewives. And the season 14 reboot has been such a pleasure. Not only was it huge news, but I feel like it just shook things up in such a wonderful way. And I heard that Andy Cohen was key to convincing you. Was that true? How did it all happen? What was the pitch you got? Oh, yeah. Such a strange story. I did a podcast called Diking Out. Someone had said to me, I don't do enough for the gay community. And I felt really badly. And then literally the next week, I got a call to the podcast and I'm like, OK, final do it. And one of the women who was the narrator, so it was a live podcast. And she said, do you know that they're doing a reboot of Rony? And I said, what's Rony? And I've watched Real Housewives, but I didn't know the acronym. Right. And she said, Real Housewives of New York. And she said, would you ever do it? You'd be the first New York gay housewife. And I was like, sure. I feel like I saw a clip where you're like, call me Andy. Yeah. Well, basically. And so the girls from the Diking Out podcast took a photograph of me from my Instagram and placed me in the lineup of all the women from the previous cast. And then they posted it. And I thought it was hysterical. And so I posted it. And I said, who do I call? I'm available, which is something I say all the time. I'm like, I'm annoying and expensive, but I'm available. And that's my line. And then I DMed Andy. And I sent it to him as a joke, because I have known him for a while. And he laughed and he's like, this is not a bad idea. And I'm like, great. Anyway, I don't know, nine or 10 months later, I get an email from the casting people just saying, hey, listen, Andy had asked us to meet with you. We are almost uncasting. Can we get you on a quick call right away? And I was like, sure. I felt like they were checking a box, meaning Andy had asked them. So I was like, great. My mother was very, very old at the time. And I was frequently back and forth to California. So I was very distracted and didn't ask any questions, because I just thought it was literally a box check. I had my first call the next day. They called me back and said, can you do a screen test? I'm like, you guys, I had my own show. Can you just watch that? And they said, no, we really need it to be consistent. And I said, fine, I'll do it. And then I went back to LA. And then like I said, my mother was very, very ill and then she passed. And I was standing in the street corner, just getting off of the plane, coming back to New York. And I get a call from the producer or the casting director. I can't remember saying what I do the show. And I hadn't asked a single question. I didn't know anything, because I just didn't think it was real. They had already finished casting. And so I was the last person. Anyway, I was unsure. I was also kind of distracted with everything going on in my life. And I reached out to Andy and I was like, listen, I think we need to talk. And he didn't convince me, I think, for the right reasons. What I mean by that is, you know, he knew that I had to be my decision. And what he said to me, he's like, listen, anything about you that you don't want to be shared, will be shared. People will know everything. So like, you have to be comfortable with that. I was like, oh, I don't want to have anything to hide. So fine. You know, I think he said, listen, like you know the show, I would love for you to do this. But he didn't try to convince me. So he rightly so was very thoughtfully nudging without saying, please do it. Wow. Grown ups. Talking. How refreshing. So you mentioned that you had seen it before. What had you seen? Like, what was your relationship with the franchise? You know, when I was living in New York years ago, I'm living in Brooklyn, actually. The first season came out. And it was the Ramona and the Jules Errin and the Alex and, you know, and then Llan joined and Kelly Buncemon. And I liked the show because there really hadn't been anything about women in reality. You know, if you think about it, it was all MTV shows of like kids living in the same house. And that was really the extent of reality at the time. And so this was interesting to me. And I definitely watched and I got sucked in and it was my guilty pleasure. And I had watched some of the OC because I grew up in California. So that was interesting to me. And so when this came back around, I started to watch Atlanta Salt Lake City and get myself a little bit more Beverly Hills steeped in the franchise again. And it's changed a lot. It had gotten very formulaic to me. It felt like the same kind of things happening over and over again. And, you know, I don't know if ours is any different than that. But I had this idea of like, well, could it be different? The network wanted to change it. They wanted it to be more diverse overall. And I think they did a great job of achieving that. And I think we do as a group feel different than what the current franchise shows up as. How that translates over time, who knows, you know, we'll see. And who knows if we'll have a second season or a third season or anything like that. So it was a risk. I was definitely a gamble. I did it for my business. And that was a good decision. It's been great for love scene. It's been weird from me personally. I got uninvited to a fashion show this week. What? Yeah. Why? They did not want a reality TV star at their show. Fascinating. Well, they're lost clearly. I appreciate the honesty. Like, I'm glad that they just said exactly what it was because I had been invited and then literally uninvited, which is such a weird thing to do. And so having someone be transparent felt actually like a grown up thing to do. But still, that's wild. So I remember when we spoke the last time for Second Life and you were talking about with your show that the filming at home felt a little invasive and that you don't always love being in front of the camera, although my husband did the music for girls. When he was walking out of the room, he was like, tell her I loved her on girls. Like, I mean, you're great in front of the camera. It wasn't interesting to hear you say that you didn't always feel as comfortable. So I'm wondering if this round with real housewives feels different in any way or if you feel more comfortable at this point in your life, in your career, in your world, in your skin, or if it's still just awkward. Oh, this was actually much harder in previous scenarios I have had edit rights. So knowing that I did not and also, you know, the way the show is lit, the lighting is a little tricky. And so those things combined really made it much harder. And it's also just a different audience and a different way to approach things. I was very much out of my element and it was not seamless for me by any stretch of the imagination. Got it. What about meeting your fellow castmates and spending time with them because making friends as an adult is complex at times, making work friends is a whole different situation. Did you have initial thoughts? Did that change over time? Did your connection surprise you in any way? I mean, all of the above, I think I had initial thoughts. Most of them are wrong. I had connections. Some of them are fissured and they're evolving every day. It's hard to make friends as you mentioned as an adult, but it's even harder when you have cameras following you around and you don't really know each other that intimately yet. We did the best we could. I think that feelings got hurt. People cried myself included. It's a pressure cooker experience. A, you don't know how you're going to be portrayed. And listen, it is a show. The show has a rhythm and has a desired outcome. And that is to create drama and make people interested in your story whether it be sad, happy, whatever it may be. And so it's innately challenging. And I feel very protective over all of the women, even in the moments when they maybe were hard on me. I still feel protective over them because I know that we all went through this very unusual process and no one could ever understand what it's really like to be a part of that. And so people sometimes come into my DMs and are like, so and so, so mean, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, you know what? Lay off, back off. You don't know anything about it. It's really different when you're inside. Keep in mind, I am seeing it in real time with everyone else. So I don't get to see the show. I know. I have no idea. The only caveat that I had was episodes where my son was involved. I wanted to see just to make sure there was nothing that he would be more to fight out. So I'm learning about myself and how I'm being portrayed and how I'm coming off at the same time you are. So every week is like, you know, a nail bider. And also I'm behind. I don't watch them in real time. I don't really like to watch myself. So I don't watch. So people are like posting things and asking things. I'm like, oh god, I got to watch the show. Wow. Okay. Okay. Interesting. Of all of the aspects of the show, what has been the most fun and what, I think I know the answer to this potentially has been the most challenging? I mean, the most challenging part is just you are developing relationships with completely unusual circumstances. And so they're just not normal relationships. Like, there is no way our relationships can grow and feel nurtured when you have cameras on you. And then there is this platform where there's controversy and everyone has an opinion. Most friendships don't develop that way. And so that's just hard because I think it undermines a little bit of our own ability to resolve things with each other because there's just so much outside pressure. So that to me is the most challenging thing. I think the most fun thing is people seem to love it. I will not lie. It's so nice when someone comes up and says, I love the show. Like that feels great. You know, I'm like the kid who is ugly duckling. You know, one wanted to talk to you and I was totally on the sideline. So to me, to be the person to walk down the street and someone says, I love watching you on the show. Can I take a picture? I wonder if it feels so nice and I'm deeply appreciative. And I feel like that probably is unlocked to a new level because when we spoke for second life, you said after walking away from J. Crew, you expected the phone to ring a lot more than it did. Probably people assuming you had a non-compete. But that there was this moment of like, wait, where is everyone who am I now? You were part of such a largely positive feedback loop for such a long time. And then to sort of like have that disappear for a while. Like is it sweeter this time around a little bit because you had it perhaps against your own wishes? It just wasted upon you before. And then there was a bit of a fallow period and now it's full spotlight blast again. I don't know if I'd say it's sweeter. I think I'm far more appreciative and very, very humbled by all of it. And also know that they could all go away tomorrow. I have now seen the ebb and flow of being invited to everything, invited to nothing, being recognized, not being recognized, invited, being disinvited, and so I'm grateful that this time is just me. I think what I was struggling with during the time after I left J. Crew was that everyone just associated me with this brand automatically. I couldn't escape it. And I still have a hard time, you know, and not that I want to escape, but it's not me. And having the conversations and the pictures and the stories and whatever be about me is helpful because now it feels like I've kind of re-centered myself and I'm not getting tugged back into this old life that I used to have. So you were lightly goaded, I say, with love into the housewives. It's a way of doing more for the community in some ways. Visibility is important. Representation is important. So what do you hope that viewers take away from you showing up as your full self in such a public way? What I saw so much of when I came out at J. Crew and earlier on is that it's always the parents that people are afraid of. They're afraid to tell their parents for whatever reason. It might be for religious reasons. It might just be because they don't think their parents will understand their parents maybe grew up in another era and just can't get around it. And then when you talk to the parents, you realize that parents are just afraid that their kids not going to be okay, that they love them so much that they want them to be protected and they want them to have a normal, easy life. And so the rejection is almost about love. It's fear. It's not because they don't love you because you're gay, but they're just so afraid that you're not going to be okay and that it's going to either reflect badly on them or just make them confused. And I watched this with my own mother. So I hope that parents of kids who are gay or trans or whatever can see that it's okay. You can have a beautiful, fun, warm, loving, successful life and it's not a crashing sort of affliction. It's actually kind of great and the sex is really good. That's my favorite thing that you are so pro-sex in that way. It's just really refreshing again, adult-stocking. I love it. It's great. It makes me so happy to hear on so many levels. So one of my favorite moments because I have been watching like everyone else is you gave just some really good advice about not wearing two clear labels at the same time. By the way, the way it came out of you, it made me realize like I don't think you could have kept that in if you had wanted to. So true. I was like, what do you do? I recognize that. So of all the housewives, is there anyone who you would love to style? Oh. Hmm. Oh, God. I think I love all of them, but any franchise, any era, oh, any franchise, any era, not just mine. God. I mean, you know the one I want to get my hands on is Kyle Richards, because I think Kyle's coming over to my team, so I think she needs a little help. I mean, I could be totally wrong. I love that. So you got my own head. I found myself literally after episode one at the office wearing denim jacket as a shirt where I was like, wait, where is this coming from? And I was like, oh, yeah, that's right. I just saw Jenna on the show, obviously. And I looked around and I was like, am I doing Jenna Lyons cosplay? And everyone's like, yeah, you are, but it looks good. And then I saw on social media so many different friends of mine in the fashion and beauty community. We're basically doing the same thing. They're like, why am I suddenly wearing this? Is it Jenna Lyons again? Oh, my gosh, it's happening. What is it like having like a whole new lits of folks who are tapping into your personal style so openly and avidly? It's so fun. And my favorite are the one people dress like me for Halloween. It's my absolute favorite, particularly young kids, because I think it's so fun. And then I had, this is the first I've never experienced this. And I loved it. It's someone dressed as being a drag, so they did a dress up. I was like, yes, it's amazing. I want to dress up in drag with Casey, who is the makeup artist that I work with a lot for Halloween. That's amazing. So my last question, let's talk about taglines. If season two happens, do you keep your tagline? Would you want a different one? What would that be if you did? How do you feel about it? I do know it was one of the hardest things we all had to do, and then network approves them. And I struggled. I be accorded a bunch of them. I'm glad that they picked my favorite because it references lashes, which obviously makes court my life right now. I'd like to keep it. It's still a part of my life, and love scenes not going anywhere. So listen, I don't like to talk about things that haven't really happened, and we don't know if there's going to be a second season anyway, so we'll see. I think we do. No, I don't think we do. I think we know. Great. Well, I'm looking forward to next season. But seriously, it has been such a joy. It really is a treat for everyone who's watching. And the fact that it's gotten so many new and different people into the show. I'm getting such a kick out of it. Thank you. I love seeing all of the success of love scene. I love seeing all of your different projects. I'm sure there are more coming up when they do come out. You have to come back and talk to me about it. I'm just banding it. Every three years is not enough. Like let's hit this one in every three months, cadence. I'd be happy to. But thank you so much for your time. This was such a delight, as always. Thank you so much for having me. It was great to see you. A huge thank you to fashion icon, founder of love scene, and real housewife of New York, Jenna Lyons. Make sure to subscribe to our show wherever you listen to podcasts so you don't miss an episode. And, while you're there, I'd also be so grateful if you would rate and review us. If you have any guest suggestions or any other feedback, drop us a line at podcast at Huatware.com or you can find us on social at Huatware. See you next Wednesday on Huatware with Hillary Kerr. This episode was produced by Hillary Kerr, Summer Hammeres, and Natalie Thurman. Our audio engineers are at Treehouse Recording in Los Angeles, California, and our music is by Jonathan Leahy.