Succession S4 Ep7: Two Indias (And Two Episode Directors)

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Hello and welcome to an unbelievably special episode of Slate Money Succession. I am Felix Salmon of Axios. Hi. I'm here with Elizabeth Spires of New York Times and many other places and probably some political campaign that's trying to do deals in dark rooms or dark penthouses. Hello. And we are here with the inimitable, unique, amazing WGA member, Taffy Brodessa Agner. Hello. And Taffy because it's never enough to just be Taffy. Apparently you have brought two special guests. It is Sherry Sprinter-Burman and Bob Polchini, who I have the privilege of knowing from being the director of the majority of episodes of Fleishman is in trouble, but also from sitting in their director's chairs and saying this is not how we do it on succession. We got two helicopters instead of this tricycle. And they are the directors of the episode we all just saw. So congrats, Bob and Sherry on episode seven, but can you just bring us up to speed because I'm pretty sure that almost no one understands how this works? Why does a TV show like succession have so many directors? You only directed this one episode of this season, right? Of this season, yeah. This is our third episode. So explain why succession, it must have dozens of directors at this point. Well succession, every episode of succession is almost like a feature. As I've told Taffy many times, the scripts are incredibly long and part of the process of succession is whittling down a very long script in the editing process. So you do a lot of shooting. There's a lot of last minute writing. There's a lot of changes you have to really be on your feet. It wouldn't make sense to have just two directors on a season the way they schedule it and the needs for each episode. So now you've just blown my mind here. Sherry, can you expand on this? When we see an episode, that is not what was in the script. There was a lot more in the script that you end up cutting out. There was a whole bunch of random extra improvised or extra stuff that you wound up adding in at the last minute. And the idea that succession is a completely sort of right-a-driven show that is completely focused on fealty to the genius writing is maybe not true. No, it is completely right-a-driven. It's so right-a-driven that they keep writing. And never stop. So basically, there succession Jesse and the succession writing room, which the writers, every single one of them are brilliant. It's just the most amazing writers. They're often on set. We'll write way bigger scope for 60 minutes, you know, or an hour or whatever. And then they are okay with cutting it down and figuring out the parameters to make that 60 minutes in the editing room. You know, it is so there are amazing scenes that do get caught. Amazing scenes, like things that could be your favorite scene. But for whatever reason, it doesn't serve the story or it just lags there or, you know, they have to kill their babies. And so this explains a lot of the sort of random jumps and sort of holes that we have to fill in or partly explains that. The way that we just, you know, suddenly one minute shiv and Matt's in a meeting on a private jet, who knows where, and you're like, how does this fit? What is going on? And presumably, maybe someone wrote something that might have explained that, but like, that just got cut. They're not big on explaining. That's not like, if it ever feels like explaining, it gets cut out. That's not what they want the experience to be. It's intentional and I think it's really effective. So can I ask you a question about that? In this episode, very early on, they're meeting, the kids are meeting for breakfast, the Trump hotel in Midtown. And shiv is part of the crew that is trying to kill the deal. And I don't know about Elizabeth and Emily, but I was like, wait, when did that happen? And we're supposed to just kind of fill in some kind of imaginary history of, oh, yeah, shiv is now ostensibly on board with this. Well, she's pretending. Right. Right. She's keeping her alliance with Matt's and close to the vest because she's, you know, trying to play both sides and see which works out to her advantage. Right. She's a double, double agent. Yeah. Yeah. They are. That's one of the challenges of actually directing is that people's intentions are so duplicitous. It's hard to keep up with it sometimes, even as a director. And I'm sure as an actor. That is sometimes they are not quite 100% sure of where they are exactly emotionally in their own, in their relationships in the show. So it's interesting and it's challenging, but it's always fascinating. I mean, the one thing I do have to say is Jesse, if he's here is on set. And if not Jesse, it will be like a nut Tony, who's his partner on this or other writers. There's always somebody there and the actors are very involved in asking these questions of the writers. I mean, we'll be there, but we can answer the answers because we're not creating the characters. So there are a lot of side bars, even before we get to set to discuss like, well, what are my intentions? Why am I doing this? Well, would I do this? And the actors have a lot of input. There's a line that Logan had, and the episode we did with Adrian Brody, where he shivers kind of saying there has to be a line. And Logan says, there is no line. Everything is moving. Always get used to it. And that to me kind of became like, that's kind of the mantra for the whole show. It's like, don't ever settle or get used to anything because it's constantly shifting. Yeah. Whatever was true last episode isn't true this episode, except presumably that Logan is dead. I've heard the show described as a British farce. It like that there's a way you could look at the show as a British farce. And I think the farce element of it, but also this very tragic element is these sort of rudderless children who are stuck in this purgatory. Like I picture this is what purgatory is. Like if we find out at the end they were dead the whole time, I will not be shocked. They just like go from they have no attention span. They like are seeking these oxytocin hits from new deals all the time so that they can't even make it to the deal that they want. If they go from wanting a deal to not wanting a deal to ship agreed to that. And then suddenly she turned on it because Madsen appeared to be offering her even though he didn't. He appeared to her to be someone who would give her something that she hadn't had. But Felix I want to tell you something about the way it all works which is movies are a director's medium where the director sort of the actors would go to the director and say what is going on here whereas TV is considered a writer's medium which is why the arrangement in TV is just a little bit different which is why writers are on set generally of a TV show in order to answer those questions. Bob and Sherry who have done movies and who have done their own TV are also now doing you know they they'll do an episode but because they are writers they are great on this process. They overstep their bounds. I mean you know they are actually wonderful. We don't know what's going to happen after our episode. Wait what really? Yeah we don't know. I mean I'm not sure they know sometimes but you know I don't know. All of the episodes shot in sequence. The episodes go in sequence yeah. And the actors haven't read the full script for the season when they're shooting each episode. No no no in fact they're it's really weird because I'll tell you something that they do we did it on Fleishman as well which is once you're shooting you do your table reads on your lunch break and it's amazing to see actors come back from the lunch break because the first time they'll see the script for the next episode is at the table read and you'll see people like so flipped out by like what they just read and you're like okay but we're shooting another episode now you can worry about that later. So funny was Logan like I guess I wasn't there after the I wasn't there when Logan I think Jesse had a personal conversation with him I wasn't there. The actors get like paid per episode right like they they've got to know how much they're going to get paid therefore how many episodes they're in. They make a season to y'all like if you don't have an actor in an episode they like a main actor this is a great question they still get paid. If you try if you leave someone out of an episode the studio might remind you that you're still playing that actor. So in this quite pataffa you mentioned this idea of a farce and I've said many times that succession is one of those shows that's a tragedy when you watch it the first time in a comedy when you watch it the second time but Sherry can you like is there a difference when you're directing a comedy versus a tragedy and do you just play this succession in particular do you play it straight like a tragedy and just kind of let the comedy seep through or how does that work? They are allergic I mean the whole succession vibe is allergic to anything that is overtly comic. They do not want to go try for humor what they want is the humor to come from the tragedy and come from the true I would say like the biggest rule is that things have to come from there's tons of research and consultants and there's a desire to make things as truthful whether they're emotional arts whether there's the way things really work in business or the way rich the 1% live like our first day on shooting when we were on season 2 I remember them telling us you know the 1% never wear winter coats because they're never outside I mean maybe when they're skiing but they always go from the limo to the wherever they're being dropped off so they don't need winter coats so our people will never wear winter they literally live in the bubble Roman is out on a balcony in November in New York in shirt sleeves he doesn't seem to notice at all it's it's it's probably because he's got radiant heat or something on the balcony I mean it's but they but they do have consultants that like tell them things like that that apparently are true like so I would say we always play everything for truth emotional truth reality there is no I mean if Jesse even smells there are things Bob and I like like one of my favorite conversations with Jesse on set was we were doing the scene where Tom and where Tom throws the water bottles at Greg and you know pelts pelts him with a whole thing of water which is about as broad as you can get right but we you know we were doing a wide shot and like Jesse and I were looking at the the screen you know and we're like how many water bottle this was like after in the aftermath how many water bottles is funny on the floor and how many is pushing the joke too far you know because we don't want it to so we were like literally like putting water bottles in the frame and Jesse would be like no that's too too broad or pull three out so then I pull three out and be like well that's that's okay if you move that one to the corner of the frame you know is that it's that kind of thing so he has a very exquisite sense of like the line between comedy and and reality I think I like the idea of hiring these consultants like a rich person to say no I never wear a winter coat is it a rich person who is it has to be it's only the persons called a wealth consultant we had we had a little extra money I know I I actually assume that they get very little money yeah they don't need to because when you're in that world but yeah I mean the very first scene of this episode is you know Tom getting making breakfast after an all night breakfast with shiv and there's a butler I guess who's like actually making the breakfast for him and you're like okay this is amazing and then he walks by another woman doing vacuuming but he carried it all the way through the apartment that's the thing that's that's that's the grand gesture yeah and somehow in between like the the great sexual reconciliation with shiv and breakfast he'd managed to procure a scorpion which which you can do at like seven o'clock in the morning when you're that rich we need to have some ads but we will be back to talk about that massive fight between shiv and Tom. 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I mean I said to these two last night who by the way did that like now that I kind of know how the sausage is made I just looked at it and was like wow those were overnight shoots I don't know how many overnight that was but that was that was a lot and it also that I looked at I mean I've been waiting I'm so my shame in Fleishman and in all of my writing is that I'm so on the nose and succession with holds in such a brilliant way that I'm not capable of and I feel like I have it was all in the service of this episode where they just say it all to each other and I was really blown away by it I mean these two like it was it's also shocking to me that they were reconciled like they seem to have like a grief reconciliation like they just decide that they're back and she can just turn on a dime and I feel like the thing he says to her it's because you're broken the thought I had when he said that was that Shave is the best character on all of television in the history of television like I know people talk about I know people talk about Kendall I know they talk about Roman I know they talk about I mean like a million other people you know Jack Donaghy I think Shave Roy is the is the most the weirdest and most interesting character that's ever been on television and that marriage my God and also I'm obsessed with this pregnancy I'm obsessed with it I'm obsessed with like Googling 20 weeks pregnant wouldn't someone having sex with like I understand that not everybody is showing showing in their first pregnancy at 20 weeks but someone who's having sex with you okay but so it's not okay I've been thinking a lot about this and I think Emily and I know I'm the first thing first thing is she's not actually 20 week pregnant she's just scheduling the 20 week exams we don't know how far in advance they schedule that but here's the other thing that really threw me for a loop was in the middle of that fight are you wait wait I'm sorry I'm sorry but what the audience does not hear is Emily is emphatic nodding your saying nodding yeah I think you're saying that if you're like 10 weeks pregnant they will schedule your 20 week I think they're much no she's maybe or 20 is a very important appointment and I do feel you schedule it a bit in advance she probably owns a baby owns an ambulance he's a baby is the shiv accuses Tom of basically you know not being not seeing her dad for the last six months of his life six months right and presumably they haven't had sex over you know since she since he betrayed her until now which makes it suddenly much less likely that Tom is the dad that is some deep diving Felix I'm not sure that when she said she didn't I don't think everything in succession happens in this really short period of time especially this season this is like four days right yes like everything happens they're a crazy day above ground there's not been a funeral right yes there's nothing if you would be right no later what so so the funeral is not yet no so the thing that happens is I think when she says the last six months I don't think she means that she didn't see like I think her and I think this all kind of happens shortly after the wedding in Italy I don't think six months have passed I think she means that he got in the way of her relationship with her father for the past six months I don't know I didn't write it but that's my guess is that that like when we start this season it's not much after the debacle of the it isn't because it feels like they're saying months and also in the in the premiere episode of the season you know Tom it like she lives somewhere else and Tom yeah no they've definitely came yeah yeah they've definitely broken up I think for all for all their research on the show time lines are not something that they care so much about it's funny it's like everything is exhaustive all the research is just like you know and then if you bring up a timeline like we did one episode where you know they go to an island all in a day and it was gonna be Capri and I was like well are we shooting a day or night when they're back on the plane because this is like they just don't you know they don't they don't care about that they care more about you know the specificity of the world and that's where they you know they but at the same time they know they wanted to be entertaining and they know it's a television show and that's the balance that being said I have no idea if it's if the father is Tom or someone else that that is a good you guys you guys read every episode up till yours but yes you get the episodes after no no no we have no idea what's gonna so we can't answer your question about the pregnancy we don't know I mean if you'll remember Felix at the end of the previous season she comes home to Tom in Italy and says let's make a baby so I mean right one presumes that's what happened that's also the devastating line that Tom has where he says you know I think you are maybe not a good person to have children which sort of makes you think that you know it's it's front of mind for him in some way or maybe he knows but he doesn't know I'm pretty sure he doesn't know you just saying the meanest thing you could say to her right we had we had that short scene or short-term scene with Kendall and Rava earlier in the episode just showing how bad these kids are being parents I mean they're just as bad as Logan right oh yeah although I love I love that scene because I love that Kendall thinks that he's saving the world for his children he's like you don't know what I'm doing I'm breaking my back to save the world for them like six continents okay I'm like yeah yeah I'm really big in Antarctica okay the penguins he took his sunglasses off when when she was like it's not a legal thing it's about the kid and then he takes his sunglasses off like as if to say like I'm with you now I'm present yeah I wasn't there meeting in front of a birch coffee I would meet with my ex-husband about a big issue that was Shari's choice that was me because they wanted to do it it was like a last minute thing and you know it was easier to do it in either Kendall's apartment or Rava's apartment and like this was something I felt strongly about and Jeremy felt strongly about that they weren't on those terms where they would be meeting in each other's apartment that it needed to be sort of not neutral ground and but birch outside and it was it was it was like a quick walk by and it wasn't like it wasn't it was Rava's territory and not right and not Kendall's when you say it was the last minute thing like the decision to shoot it at birch coffee was the last minute thing or the whole scene was the last minute thing no the well the scene came was game late both the scene came late which is why it was hard location wise and the decision to shoot it at birch was last minute as well so somewhere in so somewhere in a feverish writers room they're like shit we need to add a Rava scene in there I mean like because she we haven't seen her all season and you know she's not a major character yeah I was really happy because I thought that I think they have a really interesting dynamic and I was really excited to see to see that side of Kendall in the middle of all this but but yeah I mean they I think they wanted I don't know what caused them to write it but it did appear later it was not in like the first few drafts of the script wow so they're still writing while you're shooting we've sometimes scouted on rumor you know like of a scene you know I hate to say it but who never did that to you I mean also that I mean writing never stops I mean they bring alt to set so you know you they have the script and then they bring all that for long alternative scripts alternative lines alternative lines I liked in this episode because you had the Rava Kendall fight obviously Shiv and Tom are going through it and then you have Willa and Connor as like this example of the great supportive marriage yes yeah what wife and quotes is the bunker underground I know that's no is our house above ground it's important to know yeah I mean it's interesting what this party does to these relationships you know and it's supposed to be this bonding it's supposed to be this bonding evening for supposed to be the you know Tom and Shiv presenting themselves to the world again as a couple it doesn't turn out that way you know and I have a question feel like does anyone here know about some big party that happens the day before election night like I only know about I know that like election day all the journalists are fallow and eating at Odeon because we don't have anything to do and then at night it gets nuts am I is that a party I'm not being invited to or that I don't know about there isn't a very important party Taffy and you're not invited this is there it I mean Will Tracy who's a really brilliant writer who wrote this episode he had photos from I don't know if it's the night before you know the election and that might just work with their timeline they're very neat tight timeline but there was this there are these parties and I was shocked when I saw photos of like Rebecca Mercer like right wing like Trump supporting people with like MS and with like Don let you know like it's at parties with their arms around each other like having a cocktail before the election now I don't know what if it's it might not be the night before and we were given very specific types of people that would be there and if journalists it was like only the most and you know Frank Rich is a producer on the show so he's very knowledgeable about it was like the biggest podcaster in political in the political world who holds sway might be there along with like you guys would obviously be invited right along with of course and of course the Wall Street Journal op-ed page which which so but okay so it does occur to me and I have to say I didn't really think about this until right now but it occurs to me that this episode on some level is a disco is so on some level is just about or one of the many things it's about is the impossibility of marrying into the Roy family that Tom can't do it rather is you know broken up will is called a wife in scare quotes by Roman the kids have breakfast and just decide that everything that Marsha wants to do they can just ignore the closest thing that Roman has to our wife is Jerry and she just like brutally tells him about and it shows how none of them have any ability to have any sort of support mechanism outside the family and they certainly don't have any support system inside the family they are all very alone I think that's very true and you know and how you know how they all have different ways to benefit from the different outcomes of the presidential election so they're not even none of them are even aligned that way it's every there's no there's no line between the personal and power and politics in any of their relationships. I thought that the other interesting thing about Kendall is like Kendall trying to come into his own and figure out who he is only for Nate to say you're not Logan I'm not Gil that's a good thing and how it kind of stuns him almost this unforeseen possibility that he could actually make his own way instead of what they've been saying in the episodes since Logan died which is this is what dad would do what would dad do oh dad would totally do this right or alternatively as Matt's and puts it the failed sons will do what he did but they will do it stupider. They have so many great names for the brothers in this episode the fail sons dumb and dumber the dumpster brothers and the Kenro it's just unending yeah it really is. My favorite nickname is Mr. Mile who is a one pepper menu option without Tom. When she says to his face. When she says to us like she really insults him it always reminds me that the rabbi who married claud in me always he gave us a few pieces of advice before marriage and he said and the last thing he said was those couples who kind of poke fun at each other behind each other's backs don't do that it's never a good look and I always remember that and then you see she's doing it in front of him like instead of like rolling her eyes about Mr. Mile he's like here's Mr. Mile. She's been my husband Mr. Mile a one pepper menu option. There was one episode where she was laughing hysterically with someone else I can't remember who it was about the way Tom wears a suit. Well yeah that was episode one when they had dinner at Romans house right and they had a yeah that's right. Yes oh my god. I was so brutal because he was so excluded from the even the conversation even though he was there and it was just you know it's you know with shiv it's like you know being in a ring I mean Tom said that he sometimes speaks in a higher voice whenever shiv is present because he's always afraid you know of where she might go he lives in fear of her but so that's what's until like he breaks on the terrace exactly and I think that's why that's so powerful because you know it all and they're both right right I mean both of them are assessing each other correctly and that's what's sad about it I think and what's very true about it. And that they knew this about each other and yet they in love they agreed that that was fine and but also like that sort of brutal like you asked me to marry you at my lowest point my father was like the kind of strange rewriting of history which was actually an accurate rendering of history is kind of brutal and shocking and very much the stuff of like the people I know who have gotten divorced when suddenly everything that was good could now be seen through this horrible prism of what was I thinking right? My dad was dying what was I supposed to say I didn't want to hurt your feelings. Wow. What? What? Because I asked her how do you suppose that's how you say what was I supposed to say in Tom says no and she's like I didn't want to hurt your feelings. You know your feelings like that's not what you didn't think about my feelings when you went off the phone book. Yeah well there's also you know they've the knives really come out around class too in that conversation you know she describes his family as striving and parochial and he says you know you'll be fine ship no matter what happens and so it's it's a and you don't really they sort of tip-tour around that in previous episodes and then it just all comes out you know that they're not even compatible on that basis so. Well there's a lot of that in the show I mean there's you know even with Matt's and you know he calls him new money you've got to hold those bills up to the light with new money. No that wasn't Matt's that's what Kendall says about Matt's. That's what Kendall says about Matt's and yeah. But it's also weirdly like the way that the three kids talk about Connor right that he's like a little bit Arab Eastern Dickler say by Roy Kidd standards and they you know there's so many sort of and this is actually very English I think this probably does come from like the Jesse Armstrong side of things is this exquisite gradations of social class that you you see in the show. Yes I was talking about Willa's mother filling her plate up with too much food at the. Or the guests with the big with the big pot the big hers. The capacious bag. Which I have to say like of all of the lines you know in season four that I would have guessed would like enter popular culture as a meme the ludicrously capacious bag was not on would not have been on my list but that's the one that everyone remembers and keeps on quoting. We're going to take a quick pause here for some more ads but next up we do need to talk about Matt's gold lama jacket. Hey drag fans please listen up. I'm Alaska and my name is Willem and we are the hosts of race chase. The premier and preeminent RuPaul's drag race recap podcast and if you aren't listening to this podcasting behemoth yet start right now because it's 2023 and we have a weekly coverage of the all new episodes from the season 15 of RuPaul's drag race every Wednesday we will discuss dissect and disseminate all of the juiciest moments wildest runway looks and the shadiest reality TV twists of the best show on television drag race race. Race chaser with Alaska and willom is the ultimate backstage pass for both drag obsessives and new fans alike so don't wait find us on your podcast apps and listen check out new episodes of race chaser every Wednesday and Friday wherever you get your podcast. Thank you. Have you ever thought oh this water is too wet or this beach is too sandy my name is Christine and my name is Sandy and we're the hosts of beach to sandy water to wet a podcast where we do dramatic readings of the most wild and off the wall reviews on the internet we find the funniest real reviews about everything from Vegas weddings matchmaking services and trader jose to caves toddler beds and spirit Halloween. You won't believe the things that people think absolutely must be said on the internet. How else would everyone know that some caves don't have Wi-Fi we hear about the good the bad and that one time spirit Halloween sent someone a dildo instead of a Halloween costume and believe it or not we got to the bottom of it. Join us every Wednesday wherever you listen to your podcast beach she sandy water to wet is brought to you by the forever dog podcast network. I have a money question that I'm sure everyone but me can answer here which is so Kendall calls him new money and I guess I wonder what are like who is like I would have thought that we would consider the Roy's new money because he was like what are the rules are how new does money have to be for you to be called new money like what generation. This is the thing right so the old money would definitely consider the Kendall to be new money right. All you need to do is look at Kendall's 40th birthday party to see the Kendall is new money. By Kendall standards. Matt's and his new money and I do actually want to ask Bob and Shari about his jacket like who chose that tell me like how how that came about. That jacket is a character in and of itself. It was it came from the wardrobe department on this show is incredible. Michelle Matlin is the head of the department and with Alex they picked it out and then they send us pictures and I was like I love this. It's so inappropriate. So Euro so like Euro vision like everything out it was was was just I thought perfect. But but yeah to answer to answer Taffy's question basically there is a distinction between an actual profitable business that is large and worth billions of dollars versus something that has been spun up very quickly and you know we keep on talking on this podcast about whether Matt's and his Daniel X is the only you know Swedish billionaire that anyone can think of but something like that who came up very quickly. This is why the kids pivot so quickly from the hundred to Piers right is because the hundred is like very new and kind of fake and doesn't feel real whereas Piers has at least been around long enough that they can feel that it's real and waist definitely has been around long enough that they can feel that it's real. Waster of course predating Royco right the even if Logan was a self made man what he did was at some point he merged Royco into wayster wayster has you know a century of IP behind it and what it what's the real life corollary to waste are. Is there something like Disney? Okay. I mean smaller than Disney probably but not you know but something along those I may be you know universal pictures. Right right right right right that seems right. And the other sort of real life parallel which I had to mention in this episode was wirecard right because there's something about European tech companies that is highly suspicious and the biggest and most glamorous European tech company was this German company called wirecard and what it turned out to be doing was massively exaggerating its revenues in Asia which is exactly what Gojo is doing. And when and when that came out when the when the financial times revealed that the Asian revenues were fake basically wirecard went to zero. This is like you can see when Shiv and Kendall are you know worrying about this and you can see even when. Matt's and his like stuttering when he's confronted about this that they all understand this is a huge like existential problem for Gojo. This isn't you know this is much bigger than the you know rapes on the cruises. This will this will actually destroy the company or could it has that potential to it. Unless it turns out to be too it is. Right because what he wants to do like is the classic AOL trade right which is like we use our inflated valuation to buy time one which is an actual real company and then even if the value of AOL goes to zero at least we still learn time one of an that's about something. Yes I think that's accurate. But now by the end of this episode you have Kendall trying to what does he try to do flip the Viking he wants to now buy Gojo and like. He wants to go very first by. He uses a sports metaphor which surprises me because Kendall does not strike me as a sports metaphor kind of person but he says what if we run it all the way back. Yeah Kendall wants to run it back right I didn't know that was a sports time. It's so interesting the way they immediately want to run it back and it's so like I guess I come from this space of like imagine just selling this company like I know that this is a stupid romantic idea that ignores the trauma that they have that their basic identity but like I don't know why don't you just sell this company and go be a rich person doing whatever you want you could even go to the first world as opposed to second world New York. I did the description of New York a second world I mean yes like I like I mean it's fair. New York is a deeply dysfunctional city on many levels and I think you need to be not American to realize how sort of second world it is. No my friend Rehan and I went to Sweden a few years ago and it was pretty like I don't know like this seems pretty nice. It had a lot of socialist ideals that nobody was allowed to email anybody after 5 p.m. or something like you're not allowed to. Email and associate after 5 p.m. It makes too much noise it'll keep people up at night. But it was also like a very like well run I mean we have this is this is a mess I'm looking outside my window to say this is a this is a mess right now. This is a mess. I love how that insult from Matt sin as a New Yorker how that deeply offended Kendall like more than you know making him go to Norway when his father had just died maybe not more than but equally. You know that insulting his city and calling it second world was such a such a ball. And that deeply awkward fight that whole scene I mean I have to say I love that scene because it's like in filmed entertainment you know movies and TV's often the fights become incredibly choreographed and everyone's and especially in succession everyone's incredibly. Locuacious and has exactly the right words there's no let's be the scallions succession right everyone has no says exactly the right thing at exactly the right time. But this fight was awkward and in quite no with their fighting or what they were fighting over and it ends with this bizarre kind of hug and everyone's just kind of looking at them befuzzled and and that's so real. I actually think that it's the opposite they all like especially Roman and especially like Logan had really done things to say with this amazing confidence like like Logan would say these crazy things like like let's see who's gonna lie down and dirt with the birds as if it were a time honored everybody knows to say and the way they would say it it was magnificent like the confidence with which and Kendall to me is always saying this like sputtering thing that because of his position he's just allowed to say I love it. The rich man the rich. Elizabeth I need to ask you about the politics of this show it has finally become clear that Connor is running as like a third party candidate in this presidential election and he's doing that like weird spoiler thing and the he's exploding in a last minute. He's exploding in the last minute and the and the and the minkin. He cares deeply about recycling which I think is an interesting. It's biggest surprising. Yeah it's like you know reckons that he's taking more Republican votes and Democratic votes and that if Connor drops out then maybe that will help minkin whose campaign is looking weak. Walk me through the sort of realities of this and how you know is there any actual world where a third party candidate would do a deal with one of the other two parties and drop out in return for like an ambassadorship somewhere. Yeah I don't think it would happen the night before the election though and it is great that you know they initially offer Connor Mogadishu and he says it's too car bombing. Yes for North Korea and you know Roman says Con they're not going to put you anywhere with nukes and Han says well that's insulting I don't want to go anywhere that doesn't have nukes. If I could see you know there there have been candidates especially for libertarian candidates because they're just never ever viable and they do tend to take votes away from Republicans far more than Democrats if there was like a slim margin in there it would make sense to get Connor to drop out. But I don't think it would happen on that timeline. For Ben Carson he ran for president in 2016 you know was kind of a weird libertarian he was a brain surgeon but everything he said seemed incoherent. Yes. And Trump he didn't close. Yeah with his eyes closed you asked and you were like I hope you're opening them for surgery dude. But Trump made him HUD secretary housing an urban development which was also disastrous right but we often see this right so offer you know people the judge gets a cabinet position like the right I mean you know Kamala Harris becomes vice president the rival presidential candidates within the party get little knickknacks and googles. But this is different because it's a third party candidate. They're also offering him so terrible things it's not like they're offering him it's like it shows you how much they do. Later to Slovenia you're like no I don't think I want to. And Oman. They're not really giving him a big carrot to jump to leave. It's in fact their offers are so bad he says no. The scene where he was trying to convince Willa to go to go to go. It really went on for a long time. It's really funny. It was fantastic. There were so many great lines. You can park anywhere you can drive on the sidewalk if you want. Yeah. They just kept coming up with all these you know. There's some line about like she could she could have theater she could put on her place. She's like are there. There's no theater there. No she has it on their credit. I love that part because the sort of the counter always gets the double insult which is like it's not just we want you to drop out because you're clearly not viable. But also we can't even offer you anywhere in Europe other than you know we can't offer you what you want. What does he say about marching through the ball? But barely by Christmas. Was that Hitler's like what what what what path was that was that a reference to some. Was that like Hannibal going over the Alps I have. He loves Napoleon so maybe it's. It might be Napoleon right. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Another ad break but when we're back the best lines from episode seven. So let's talk about favorite lines. Taffy. Oh my God I'm I don't want to be the first I have to that I'm between but. Well we can we can do that with someone else if you want. No stop. I'll do one and then I'll. I'll bring out if someone else takes the second just to say I agree. They want they want us to go full we're coming to give your guns hormone therapy. All your guns are going to be ladies. We're coming to give your guns hormone therapy was the best distillation of the of the Tucker Carlson news cycle that I had ever seen in one line and I love I love how this is very you know 2023 Republican party rather than say you know when did season one come out like that would not have been a line in season one because that's not where politics was back then. Bob do you have a favorite line from this one. Well I love when Matt's and says so don't say people are data and stick my dick in the walk. When she's telling him how to behave at the party. That always makes that always makes me laugh. A tiny bit of self awareness there from Lucas. Yeah. Yeah. Sherry. Well I this is a more emotional line but I think when Tom says and I think you are maybe not a good person to have children. I just that I find that heartbreaking. What was her reaction her reaction with devastating reaction was that's not a very nice thing to say. We just such a understatement for what the beauty I think the beauty of that scene is like it's I think Taffy you were saying it's it's like it's so overt they don't speak that way in succession so that whole scene is kind of you know there's no subtext it's actually like there you know she says I don't like you I don't care about you and that to me like hearing shiv say that instead of her usual like I love you but I don't love you you know it's like it's that whole I think that whole scene is kind of really masterfully written because we know these people so well and they don't talk like that. I also like to bring it back to the sort of divorceeiness of it that that that the last stage of any relationship is first not caring who sees you fighting right there in front of a glass well fighting they're having a fight they're not having like a closed lip fight they're on a patio in front of everybody in their apartment by the way we had a cut away to people looking at them that they took out because it was probably a real obvious for them it was a thing and then the other thing about that is just that you finally just say everything instead of hinting around it anymore so I feel like I feel I saw the hallmarks of this is this is it. Also I love that line in particular because if you go back to last season when that very devastating scene when she goes out to lunch or dinner and she sits and talks with her mother who's like Caroline who's like the cruel and basically says everything there's no subtext she basically tells her you're she says it's a good thing you didn't have children I don't think she makes the assumption that she's not going to have children and she's like I don't think you would be very good at being a mother some I mean better than the thing about Caroline and Tom is that they're right about that I don't think I'm I don't think she I mean we know that the Roy is a bad parents yes I don't think she would be any different but you know I mean she played it really well that scene was beautifully done the way when she says that's not a very nice thing to say and you could see she's like holding back tears she's often holding back tears when she's fighting she's just so brilliant she's so brilliant and she was she was they were so amazing in that scene and just to tell you a little something about it that scene was so intense that we you know we shot because we shot so much of this in real time like it was almost like a real time party in a lot of ways that we were shooting because people had to be in the same spot we told everybody was so like drained we told Tom Matthew who's like the most amazing person and actor to stand out on the terrace and it was cold and and chilly and rainy and not come in and we sort of were setting up another shot and left him out there like forgot to bring him in finally he's like hello we're like oh my god I'm so sorry so that's why he's yelling he's just really pissed off that he got stuck out there we just got so caught up in it it was so emotional that we we were like shit we were like you know stay out there I love I love how tired he is in this episode and I love I just love how like bleary he is so that when he sits down to fire everyone he's like sometimes this makes me cry a little bit which I like what my reaction to being tired is to cry a lot like I just start crying a lot and I just accept that about myself and I felt like the tiredness just came through and there's an excuse made for it like you're not letting me sleep around in sex all the time but it feels like there's something else going on with him maybe it's also the election maybe it's also worried about his job that he seems really tired of this he's like doing a good job of that there is something incredibly universal about that tiny little mini fight they have where he's like I'm really tired I'm going to bed and she's like can you just stay up for another 45 minutes and he's like no I can't and I'm like how many of us have not you know we've all had that fight right right and of course the last shot is him not being able to sleep so I definitely want to ask you about that last shot but Elizabeth do you have yeah I enjoy it Matt since discomfort when he was sort of explaining their numbers problem where he says well you know maybe we discovered a metrics error that overestimated our subs in India and then he hesitates and he says like if there were two indias it would make sense and he said you can fix that right she's like yeah I'll just build another India yeah you go girl you've built another India for me I like that attitude it's like no that's not what I meant Lucas I think my favorite line is Tom don't say it's biodynamic and don't say it's German oh my favorite line was written by Matt's in ostensibly but delivered by Shiv she's reading a text from him and she says why he doesn't want to come to the party he doesn't want to swim around my dad's bullshit pre-election brain dead AOL era legacy magazine or legacy media putrid stuff mushroom fuckfest can I say just a director wise I love that transition from her at Trump Tower texting into his receiving the text I thought that was very elegant all you've done we need to just finish I think with whatever shadowing or implications the final the final shot of Tom lying awake thinking roughly from episode three onwards there's been this question if like is there a way for Tom to sort of wind up weirdly winning this whole succession battle like is is he is this final shot like Tom sort of coming to terms with the fact that like that fight totally killed his marriage with Chavon and that now he needs to come up you know without Logan to protect him he needs to come up with some plan of his own we also did an active self sabotage by telling everyone to get the fuck out of his house and they're the most important people in America right and he's so he's done a lot of damage to himself that night but you know it's an interesting question we don't know the answer but I will give you one tidbit is that in our cut we had the show ending with shiv in her bedroom and it was reversed in the final final so it must mean something that I don't know but I'm curious to see where we go from here how does this work so you have you have a cut you end with shiv you have a cut away to the party guests who are watching the fight from inside the penthouse and then it goes to like Jesse and he like makes tweaks and takes things out and puts things in and and usually improves it dramatically I mean it's very very very difficult to know sometimes things are in in the script that are setting up things that we don't know what's coming so we don't it's hard it's hard to edit without you know so we struck you know we want to give them something that structurally is is sound and really makes the because it's a lot right so really makes the episode feel like it's it's got a trajectory and stuff but the some of the specific lines and things it's hard for us to know how important they are or how much we should reduce them and that we really need Jesse to weigh in because he's the one who really knows you know where it's going and what we're setting up I mean when they first started talking about gojo in another episode we directed in season three I I was like what why are we talking about gojo so much you know where is it I didn't know so I really whittled it down and they brought it all back because I didn't realize how important the role it was gonna play I mean that's that's the thing with this show the big picture I mean they knew they must have known everything to the end like I remember when we were talking at first about like maybe this is gonna be the last season while Jesse Jesse was talking about it before that New Yorker article came out and it doesn't seem like maybe it was gonna be the the last season like it seems like this every little thing was planned for four seasons and everyone knew what would happen but but that's how television works no but it is like for an HBO show right like you think you think in like season one they had a plan for four seasons I think Jesse had an idea of where it would end I don't think he knew for sure and I also don't think he knew I remember him saying you know several years ago when we started working on the show I remember him saying I see this as being four or five episodes not more than that so I think he I mean seasons not ever so I think he always knew that that there was just a limit to how much story he could tell and I think but I think he was open to people convincing him at least that's what he said in the article and I he's I think he went in saying I don't know if we could find another really meaningful season maybe we'll do it but in the end he decided it wasn't there wasn't one so next episode show you of you know given the sleep money succession listeners a little tidbit that we can hold on to the next episode is not going to be the funeral other than that we're just gonna have to I guess that's all we know that's all we know it's good that corpse continues to rot above we know it's election we woke up on the right side of the question today we are like I know I know I'm assuming to me as a Jew I had a conversation with the writers about it I'm like you know we bury our debt immediately and you know they were like well and it's true they're like he is such an international figure that putting people want to come from other countries and putting it together is a big job. Whenever I hear of like someone lying in state I'm like they're not buried I'm always horrified that's what we're to take away from this effort. Not a lot of Jews in Dundee I can tell you. Who's gonna win the election how about that who's gonna win the election? That's... Mencken. Not gonna let you know don't know for sure and I bet it's mencken because I love because he was the most interesting one to watch. There was foreshadowing here right in that like the polling is bad and then it turns out that the internal polling is actually worse. But did the polls I mean they've let us astray before right? Yeah polls. The polls. The polls things. But also like you know if we're gonna be at all realistic about this especially if the election is closed which it looks like it is we're not gonna know who won the election. Oh yeah oh no right. How many episodes are there this season? There's three more to go. Who are there some the kettle corn to? I don't know. I don't know. I don't think it's the kettle corn. I think they would have at least told us that. Taffy thank you for bringing your friends. Bob and Sherry thanks so much for coming on. It was been amazing and yeah thanks to Patrick for editing together what is undoubtedly the hardest episode of slate money success and to edit but nothing like editing. Mr. Smithy. Mr. Stiff. Mr. Stiff. That's correct. That's correct. That's correct. Let me tell you. Do the listeners know that this episode was 200 pages long before it got little nap to whatever it is? This episode of slate I mean. That's the podcast I mean. Yeah but this entire podcast is very scripted. Very scripted. And so yeah we will be back on Saturday with a regular slate money and then next Monday with episode 8. Hey drag fans please listen up. I'm Alaska and my name is Willem and we are the hosts of race change. The premier and preeminent RuPaul's drag race recap podcast and if you aren't listening to this podcasting behemoth yet start right now. It's 2023 and we have weekly coverage of all new episodes from the season 15 of RuPaul's drag race. Every Wednesday we will discuss dissect and disseminate all of the juiciest moments while this runway looks and the shadiest reality TV twists of the best show on television drag race. Race Chaser with Alaska and Willem is the ultimate backstage pass for both drag obsessives and new fans alike so don't wait find us on your podcast apps and listen. Check out new episodes of race chaser every Wednesday and Friday wherever you get your podcast. Thank you. Have you ever thought this water is too wet or this beach is too sandy. My name is Christine and my name is Sandy and we're the hosts of beach to sandy water to wet a podcast where we do dramatic readings of the most wild and off the wall reviews on the internet. 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