Succession S4 Ep9: Church and State

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Listen to chosen family every Wednesday on your favorite podcast app or watch full episodes on YouTube to get the full family experience. Chosen family is a part of the Forever Dog podcast network. Hello and welcome to the penultimate ever episode of Slate Money Succession. The end is nearly nigh but we have two amazing episodes. I'm absolutely sure the last one's going to be amazing. This one was amazing of succession to cover before it's all over. I am Felix Amolev Axios. I'm here with Emily Peck of Axios with Elizabeth Spires of the New York Times and other places. Hello. And our special guest this week, Abby Disney, welcome. Thank you. Happy to be here. Abby, introduce yourself. Who are you? What is your relationship to this here show? Let's see who I am. I'm a filmmaker and an activist and my great uncle was Walt Disney, my grandfather Roy Disney. So I lived a little bit of this succession life. Let's just say. Do you think that the Roy family's name was named after Roy Disney? It had to be. They have amusement park and I was thinking I was crazy but I actually was on a zoom call with Jesse Armstrong and I was like, am I out of my mind? And he was in his library and he reached behind and he pulled Disney Wars off the bookshelf. So I felt at least like I wasn't being crazy. I mean, because we're not like them in a million ways. You know, we are so much nicer. And of course we haven't kept control of the company. I mean, like that's the most key thing and like isn't that ultimately the critique of these family empires? When did the Disney family lose control of Disney Corps? My father had a couple of different fights with the company around leadership one in the 80s and one in the audience. And this last one in the audience, he sort of left the board and then didn't insist on someone staying behind in terms of family. So that was the end of that. And what CEO would ever ask us back in? You know, just kind of suicide. Lucas Madsen being the answer to that question. Well, maybe. I feel a little, you know, I could probably have some sparks with Lucas too. Maybe they just all be on my end. So this is quite the episode again written by Jesse Armstrong longer than most. I think it's 72 minutes and no pre-credits sequence just dives straight in there. And so much happens in this episode. We'll go through it all, but to your point to what's happening between Shiven Madsen, like now we have the thing we've been waiting for all season, which is the three siblings coming apart and all going their own sort of individual separate ways. Roman most disastrously, but Shiven now has a clear alliance with Madsen. She seems to be in pole position to take over not only the CEO of Waste Arroico, but in fact, the CEO of the merged of Gojo after it acquires Waste Arroico as a kind of sock to the regulatory concerns that Menken claims to have. So she's on the ups and Kendall is gearing up to fight her. Emily, what do you make of this? I thought this was a great episode to have Abby on because it's a funeral, which is emotions are raw as we come to see with Roman. And the siblings are apart at the beginning of the episode, but they sort of come together a bit in the funeral when emotions get really hot. You can see that they love each other. It's really clear. They do comfort each other when Roman breaks down. Yeah, but at the same time they're in this like bitter war. And the lines are really drawn so starkly and clearly in the episode. It's this like really good setup for the like core issue here, which is this is a family that also has a business. And it's just it's just a not compatible situation. And that all comes to light in this episode. Yeah, everybody in this show views the funeral as a kind of business, a crucial business opportunity from Menken to cousin Greg to, you know, it sort of works on two levels. You know that there's going to be some crazy manipulations happening in the middle of a, you know, deadly serious funeral. My favorite line is when Caroline talks about her husband says he's now going to roll around like a Labrador in a lovely pile of sentences. Yeah, it's like this great networking event and Roman's fatal flaw is that he actually expresses like he can't control himself and his emotions come to the fore. And that's like his downfall at the business event, which is also his father's funeral. Whoa. Yeah. Roman Roman like every time he's had any success on this show and there have been, you know, they all have their moments to success. But Roman to always more one on one, you know, especially the Roman Menken relationship, you know, they have that very odd sort of quasi sexual thing going on when they're just meeting the two of them. But Roman in public is just not he doesn't work at all. Clearly, he's the baby of the family. So he kind of like doesn't do well in crowds and doesn't do well like when he has to kind of actually back up all this insult and bravado and everything like that. And he just was so exposed. And of course he had the breakdown. We were all waiting for him to have for four years anyway. Yeah, he's also just notoriously bad at controlling his emotions generally, but we usually see it come out with him, you know, hot headedly firing someone on impulse or just declining. In this very authoritarian way that something's going to happen because he's the boss. And I think this is maybe the first, maybe not the first time, but where you see him unable to control is more vulnerable side. It's such a turnaround from the previous episode where he seemed to come out on top, right? He got his man essentially elected president and he thought he had this huge win and Kendall was anxious because, you know, Roman had the upper hand. And it's just completely unraveled in this episode. And it's from top to bottom, right? Because it opens with Roman and his apartment sort of going over a speech and like all puffed up and proud of himself. And it ends with him like laying in the street basically, right? Can we just, yeah, very quickly, Abby, since you're the representative of the photograph. And all this is demographic, yes. Can we ask about that walking closet? Because that was, you know, this is the whole taffy question about like, is succession actually aspirational? That walking closet for anyone who doesn't have a walking closet like that was aspirational. Yes, it's very aspirational, especially if you live in New York City, my God, the square footage insane. I mean, I've seen closets like that for sure in New York. Yes, I've seen more than one of them. That's like, you know, it's a sign. You know, when you know you have a lot of money, you don't need to show it off. You know, it's just implied. And so your closet's private space, it's like a place for you to revel in. You're at square footage that you can afford that nobody else can. Your color coded. Yeah, lasers. Yes, you come from the place. Yeah, and you're a place where you, you know, practice your speech in the length mirror. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's such a New Yorker perspective on it. I mean, I feel like people have nice walk-in closets in some of their homes outside of New York. It's just, you can't do it here. Maybe this is true. Maybe I've just been living in a weird, like, New York bubble the whole time. And in fact, if I were to live in St. Louis, then that walking closet would not be aspirational. That would be yours. It would just be a walking closet. Wow. Recent, new closet is aspirational in New York City, I think. Yeah. Yeah, if you're not keeping your clothes in the oven, then you're doing well. I've made it. The way that Roman falls apart and is immediately comforted by his siblings, the breakdown is recorded. Colin Frank start gleefully like playing it back. And Jerry, who has, you know, been Roman's great antagonist over the course of this season, is the one who kind of comes to his defense and feels sorry for Roman, says like, guys, come on, like, you're going too far. Yeah. I mean, it was genuinely sad, wasn't it? I mean, it was a real breakdown. And it's not just this season he's been heading for. It's all along since the beginning. You cannot, but look at him and think, oh my God, you know, you are a sick puppy. You are really going to have problems at some point in your life. So that was a big breakdown. And it was like four seasons worth of just chaotic emotional state. And, you know, I think one of the things that creates such entitled people in wealthy, wealthy families is nobody says no to children enough. And they very often don't fully grow up. And he's a great example of somebody who has access to all the sex and the drugs and the money and everything else. And he's not a grown up. And he doesn't have grown up capacities. So yeah, it's, I've felt it heartbreaking even if he's sort of hateful. Yes. She was a little bit about Logan saying no, most of the time to most people, and then occasionally, you know, opening up the window to the sunlight or whatever the metaphor was and allowing people to bask in it briefly before closing it off again. Her eulogy was a little bit, I mean, I'm so glad she talked about what it was like to be a daughter specifically, you know, because yeah, you just definitely don't feel like you can be contained in their heads. They don't understand you. You know, she did a good job of explaining like what was great about him while also telling the truth. Yeah, the way she described it where she said he couldn't fit a whole woman in his head. I thought it was just a great way to articulate the way, you know, some men are just incapable of seeing women as full humans. And you know, she's saying this about her father, but then she says, but you did an okay job. Inherently misogynistic, you were decent dad. It's so different from how I was noticing how she talks to and about her mother, who is equally as doesn't isn't loving or caring and is mean and awful, just like Logan, but she doesn't give her the same kind of generosity as she gives her father in that speech. You know what I mean? It's like she's just as misogynistic as everyone else in a way. It's just expecting more from her mother, I think, and hating her more for not getting it. She doesn't have anything to give her. You know, the mother wasn't the rich one, the mother wasn't the famous one. And so if she wasn't loving them, what was she good for? Just me in comments. Yeah. Okay, so I mean, you know, we can all be rude about Caroline, but Caroline came to like that amazing stroke of genius where she cut what the Brits called the wags, the wives and girlfriends came to where she just lines them all up next to each other and says Logan would hate this. I mean, that was awesome. Delicious. Yeah. Very, very good. And ultimately causes a reproach moment between Marsha and Carrie. Pretty shocking hand holding going on in that pew. That scene was so well written because when she says, you know, this is Sally Ann and you think it's her introducing Carrie to somebody in these elite circles. And then she says to Marsha, you know, Sally Ann was my Carrie. And that was just mind boggling. Yeah. And then the Lillian has been hinted at throughout the series. They're always dropping her, not always, but they've a few times dropped the name Sally Ann. So I've often wondered who the hell Sally Ann is. She dead, did Logan feel this woman like who is she? And so I was glad they finally revealed that mystery and also revealed the mystery of Logan sister Rose. Yeah. We didn't see Connor's mum though, who might be dead. We don't know. I feel like she's locked up somewhere. She's in a booty hatch, isn't she? Yeah. Poor baby. They just threw away the key. But yeah, so we find out from Ewan about Rose, who turns out died as like a baby. And Logan's uncle and aunt allowed him to believe that it was his fault. Ewan, how does he describe his uncle? A character, which is basically, I think is his way of saying, you know, those scars on Logan's back probably came from the uncle. Yeah, for sure. I mean, then they've spoken of him before that he was cruel, cruel man. So it wasn't good. A little bit. What did you think? What did you make of the Ewan speech? Well, it's funny that I felt like Ewan speech was a little bit of an inversion of what ended up being shivs and Kendall's speech because he starts out with these things that make you feel a little bit sympathetic toward Logan. You know, they humanize him a little bit. You feel terrible for him whenever they mentioned that the aunt and uncle never disabuse him of the notion that he killed his sister. And then he goes straight into and because of that, you know, he's done all these horrible things in the world. And Kendall and Chip, by contrast, they take a moment to acknowledge something terrible about their father, but the speeches are overwhelmingly saying, here's the terrible thing, but everything else was good. And for Kendall, it's saying, you know, he really was rude. I agree with you and for shiv, it's, you know, he was hard on women, but he was fine to me. So I think that you wouldn't speech really set up the other two to be more poignant, I guess, but you don't come away from it thinking that you and was the total asshole for saying it because you know that it's fundamentally true. The other two, I didn't find poignant Kendall's speech. I didn't, I found beautifully written, but if you really listen to it, it's the ultimate defensive capitalism for its own sake. You know, so yeah, my father did these awful things. But he also, what is it? He made money ambitious to make and own and desire things. I mean, like it's everything bad about a highly consumerist material culture, but you and what he was critiquing was everything that comes as a result of the materialist culture, they were perfectly in opposition to each other, which is why it's so interesting. Sorry with the hard things, which are reasons not excuses, right? And then goes on to the real critique. But I feel like Ken was the only one who read the assignment. Like he was the one who came up and gave this like incredible like An Randian speech about great geezers of life he willed and if we can't match his vim, then God knows the future will be sluggish and gray. And he is clearly directing that speech at, you know, the assorted sentences and grandis and powerful people in the room, but especially at Menken and it lands with Menken and suddenly like with one speech, the thing that Kendall was worried about last episode was that the Menken relationship was with Roman and not with him. And he's like, I don't feel comfortable about this. I want I need to own this relationship. I can't have Roman on the on the relationship. And then dissolves into a puddle of tears, which is the weakest and most pathetic thing you can do in the eyes of someone like Menken. In a pheneral. And and Kendall comes in and gives this read in tooth and claw of capitalist speech, which is music to Menken's ears at the which and so Menken immediately like basically dumps Roman moves to the other brothers as good speech and like and and just but then just as Kendall tries to capitalize on this new, you know, political capital that he's built up with Menken, suddenly the whole family starts warming him and and and he can't get a word in edge wise and it's shiv who comes in and says, you know, quietly, I can be your extraction team. Which is such a great line. It's such a good line. Yeah, you really do feel like he's a little bit delighted. He's been rescued from those oddballs and freaks. Yeah, I don't think I don't think that shiv could have manufactured that meeting with Matt's and so easily if it wasn't for for Conner, Menken really needing to get away from what was that great line from Connor about. Oh my God, the my favorite one. The half. The half. The pan. The pan. The pan. The pan. The pan. The pan. The pan. The pan. The pan. The pan. The American led EU alternative, which is so glorious. There was just a times piece about one of the, one of the Habsburgs. He's racing race cars. They're all the same. What's up to you? It was just an amazing fact. Poor candle. He gains leverage for about five seconds, but he's not done gaining leverage. I mean, he's. Well, now he has leverage. You go. Yes. I mean, I feel that for all the people you need leverage over Hugo is not top of the list. He's lost Jess, which he is not happy about. Oh, let's talk about Jess. But also we need to talk about Colin because he. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So I need to get Colin back. Colin has zero desire to work for candle, but candles like no, I need, you know, I need you inside the tent pissing out. I, yeah. I thought Colin was kind of delighted with the idea of working for Kendall. I didn't get that he was reluctant. I mean, he, after that speech, I think Colin was all aboard. Oh, really? I took it the exact other way when candles says, you know, I want you to work for me and Colin immediately says, I don't love it, which is, you know, the closest he can go to saying I didn't love his quasi retirement. I thought that was a quasi retirement and therapy. Yeah. Yeah. And candles like, well, don't talk to your therapist. Talk to me. Right. What? Yeah. Yeah, that's not going to help. You know, in terms of the people who know about candles, quasi murderous history, candle did finally come clean to his siblings at the end of the last season. But really it was Logan and Colin, right? Yeah. Logan is dead now and Kendall needs Colin not to make that public. Yeah. That's a squeal. That was my takeaway. Like you can't be in therapy talking about your secrets or my secrets. Right. Instead, just work for me. And plus, Kendall's vulnerable now without Jess, which we will talk about. Yeah. So he needs like a new someone, you know, to be around for him. Okay. So Emily, Kendall and Jess. Yes. So in the last episode, there was this scene where Jess was without Kendall and she runs into Greg as Greg's about to deliver this news that they're going to declare Menckin the president. And there's like this pause in this moment between the two of them where you can see that Jess is not excited about Menckin becoming president. He's this white nationalist. Jess is the only, I think only black character, definitely the most prominent black character on this show, which is all pretty much all white people. And there's just this moment you could tell she's not happy. And of course, Greg doesn't care. Goes and does this thing or whatever. And now in this episode, Jess quits. And I think the implication is pretty between the lines that she's quitting because of Menckin, of because what happened, like she can't live with it. There's this really good interview with the actress who plays Jess in Vulture, where she kind of talks about it. And she just, she can't do it anymore because she can't pretend that this doesn't involve her or something. So she's taking a stand, but she's not taking a big enough stand where she would actually admit she's doing that to Kendall, which is sort of interesting too. What did you guys think? Kendall gets it, right? The first thing he asked pretty much is this because of Menckin. And she doesn't say yes, but she doesn't say no. She basically allows, you know, she doesn't disabuse him if that notion. She doesn't say. I like that he forces her to tell him right in that moment and then walks away saying, thanks for telling me now. Exactly. Well, she could have put it on his calendar after the funeral, right? I mean, she probably wanted it to come out. Well, he was rummaging through his calendar, looking for dates to meet with lawyers to seize custody of his children after all. How petty and awful is that? He's horrible. He's just horrible. I mean, this is the episode where Kendall becomes the killer that Logan tells him he has to be. That's why Colin's important. That's why Jess is leaving. That's why he wants to take custody of his children. This is he's stepping into that whatever you want to call it, patriarch. Yeah. Becoming his father. But this is where Kendall, like he does that thing that he's been doing, you know, from season one, which is like blustering, you know, and I'm going to go to court to get an emergency court order. Or, you know, I'm going to lie down in front of the thing. You're going to have to run me over if you know, and then of course he can't follow through on any of those threats. And that's the huge difference between Kendall and Logan. It's the Logan follows through. If he makes a threat, he does it. If Kendall makes a threat, he just lets the car drive away with his children not going to their granddads funeral. Well, that's a big question for the final episode is just Kendall going to finally make good on his threats or not. Because sometimes he can pull it off. Remember when he fired all those people at what was the name? Walter. Walter. Remember he pulled off the big mass firing at Walter? That was pretty killer like. Whereas Roman can't do the big public speeches, Kendall weirdly always does seem to be able to rise to the occasion, right? He does the speech to the vault of people. He kind of nails it. He did the speech a couple of episodes ago to the shareholders making living class seem like it was a good idea somehow. Even the 40th birthday speech which was shaping up to be a disaster, he doesn't do a disastrous song there. Rap was not a bad rap. It is dad's birthday party. Come on. I mean, that's like 50% of the CEO job, right? It's just like saying, just like bullshitting in public on command. Right, exactly. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, how much of business at the top is just bullshit. People just bullshitting. Yeah. Well, she kind of acknowledges that when Matt's coming up with the objections for her as CEO and he says, well, they say she's incredibly inexperienced and she's like, you know, I'm a comms professional. I know how to control this narrative. So she makes the argument that that's the primary qualification. But like her big name that she's not incorrect. But her big idea, Elizabeth, is just Barry the news on a big news day. I could have come up with that idea too. I don't have any comments. But it worked. I mean, number one, like this is a great day to Barry Bad News is literally verbatim, the email that got that woman fired after 11. But number two, this was the big thing that we've been worried about for the past few episodes, right, is for what happens to Gojo's stock when these numbers come out. If the Gojo stock implodes, then suddenly the deal is off. He manages to get the news out at a point when no one really cares. And evidently it hasn't hurt the Gojo's stock and therefore like this whole thing that everyone was really worried about turns out to be a little bit of a nothing burger and emerge it as far as anyone can tell is still on. Wait, Felix, can you remind me about the 9-11 email? Because I don't remember that. So that was a woman I believe she was in the UK, Abi, you were nothing along you remember this? Basically a couple of hours after the plane's hit on 9-11, she was like in comms and she sends out an email to her clients basically saying this would be a really good day to Barry Bad News. Oh my God. Don't put it in email, lady. Don't put it in email. Yeah. It's almost one on one. Okay. Thank you for explaining. Hey listeners, it's Lizzie O'Leary from Slates What Next TPD. I want to tell you about an exciting event. We are doing with our friends at the Waves. Do you love succession? If you want a deep dive into the show's feminist heroes and villains and here are smart women, investigate the fashion, power and relationship dynamics of one of HBO's most successful shows, join us for a very special Women of Succession virtual event. It's hosted by me and it is exclusively for Slate Plus members. It's on Tuesday, May 23rd at 5pm Eastern and you can sign up now at slate.com slash waves event. See you then. Hey listeners, it's Lizzie O'Leary from Slates What Next TPD. I want to tell you about an exciting event. We are doing with our friends at the Waves. Do you love succession? If you want a deep dive into the show's feminist heroes and villains and here are smart women, investigate the fashion, power and relationship dynamics of one of HBO's most successful shows, join us for a very special Women of Succession virtual event. It's hosted by me and it is exclusively for Slate Plus members. It's on Tuesday, May 23rd at 5pm Eastern and you can sign up now at slate.com slash waves event. See you then. It's time to reboot your credit card with Apple Card. Now when you get a new Apple Card by May 31st, you can earn $75 back at Nike. Just spend $75 or more on qualifying purchases at Nike using Apple Card with Apple Pay within your first 30 days. Apple Card gives you unlimited daily cash back that you can automatically grow at 4.15% annual percentage yield when you open a high yield savings account. Learn more about Apple Card in the Wallet app on iPhone. Apple Card's subject to credit approval. Savings provided by Goldman Sachs Bank USA. Member FDIC and available to Apple Card owners subject to eligibility requirements. $75 daily cash valid only for new Apple Card accounts opened by May 31st, 2023. Qualifying purchases at Nike only within the US. Additional terms and limitations apply. Visit apple.co slash Nike promo for important offer details. I need to talk because I am the official English person on this show. The absolutely the most English thing that has ever happened on any TV show ever, which was Caroline immediately realizing unlike any other character in the show that Shiver was pregnant. And then this is, I wrote down her words because it's like, it's so perfect. Oh, are you okay? Yes? Blimey. Blimey. Well, I never. Well, then. Well, well, exactly. It's like, wow. Beautiful. It's some of the greatest writing I've ever come across. Why? What does it mean? It's how the emotionally stunted English communicate with each other by using these words that you have to be either English or I guess the daughter of an English woman to be able to understand what they mean. It's so very motherly to her for her to see it immediately when she's been walking among all these other people in Rome and says, I thought you were just eating your feelings. She like for her to see it and know it like that is very motherly. But then, yeah, it's a very British reaction for sure. Or she have no one. Really when you become pregnant and like you're not a teenage girl or something and you tell people, they're like, oh my God, that's amazing. Great. I can't wait. A little ship is cut. Whatever. Yeah. Not one person reacts positively to her news, including Tom. Her mother, her brother. Her brothers. Who says Roman says, is it mine? Which is so gross. No, you said, well, if I watch you breastfeeding, I'm going to turn off. So such a sick little puppy. Unbelievable. But no one, yeah, no one gives her any positive feedback. And then she says to Matt's and later, oh, I just, you know, I'm a killer. I just need 36 hours of maternity leave. And then someone else will raise it. She keeps calling it it, which is just like, it's just awful. It's just, you know, there's like another generation. It's just setting up the next generation of emotionally stunted for people. Well, there's that amazing exchange between Caroline and Tom where Caroline, she might not congratulate Schiff, but she does congratulate Tom. And she's like, well done you. He has planted the seed. And Tom is like, well, if it weren't such a total fucking disaster, it would be a dream come true. I don't know. That's like, that's not the line you want, you know, when you're planning your future with your beautiful new baby. I just want to be like, we're so excited. Yeah. Something normal. Everything is positional. Everything is transactional. Right. That's wealthy families. I mean, like you have to work really hard not to reduce everything to a transaction or a position. And like it takes exceptional emotional intelligence to kind of create a world that isn't that. And so most families fail, you know, and some succeed partially. But the succession is a story about a family that has zero capacity to hold the transaction in and their positioning at bay. So a baby in any kind of succession related show means a lot. Talk to you talking about the Habsburgs, right? It's all about like, you know, getting the line of succession quite literally in terms of like make sure there's another generation to take over. Yeah. And there's never been a better argument for ending her righte territory rule than succession. And then I feel like over and over should have just kept saying like, I'm just going to give it to someone else to take care of. And that just seems the crux of all the problems. She was being sarcastic, but honestly, when she says to Matt's and but I'll be the CEO and don't worry, you know, 36 hours in the invisible cesarian or something. I've had a very in their identities. Yeah. Yeah. Also, by the way, I mean, of all the people who worked out that Shiv was pregnant, like Matt's and worked it out. Yeah. He heard it from someone. Like he said, he, like, who would he have heard it from? Well, the brothers. Yeah. Hugo apparently has a line to ever. Right. So the Hugo ever connect was like, whoa, you know, yeah, that's surprising, isn't it? Yeah. Well, Abba is just like so angry at Matt's and that she's like anything I can do to him, I'm just going to back channel to Hugo. Yeah. I think that's what's going on. And you know, Shiv went public. So the information or could be Greg to I don't think Greg knew. Oh, my God. What it's old Greg. She only told Greg. She only tells her brothers in the car there, right? Yeah. Well, Tom already the day before. So Tom could have told Greg Tom tells Greg everything. Yeah. And then Greg probably told Matt's and because that's what he does. Yeah. Yeah. All I know is Matt's and called Greg sexy and yes, he said, thank you. That's very fine. That's very kind. I'm sorry. You know, this, that when his uncle sits down next to him after his eulogy, he says, that was a good, hard take. Greg has zero. He has no soul whatsoever, which he, he in the previous, and he was like, who needs his soul. And it's really playing out like every episode. Greg is like, maybe his emerged as my favorite character because anytime he enters a scene, you know, something hilarious is going to happen. And even just biking on a city bike to get to the funeral. Yes. I was impressed, man. Like clearly if all shit is going down on the streets of Manhattan, the way to get to the church is basically back. It's like, that's like getting on the end of that. I was like, oh, I feel like it's going to love this because you're doing it. Yeah. It's the 10th anniversary of city bike people. And, and I have taken over 2000 city bike rides in that time. Very good. So that's any funerals? To my knowledge. No. Well, there's still time. There's still time. Yeah. Yeah. It's, you know, sports girls. So someone needs to explain to me because I'm Jewish and everyone gets buried under the ground. What the hell is going on with Logan Royce? What is that? That's a mausoleum. It's a mausoleum. Okay. And he bought it. Yes, at a discount. And it was built by, again, one of my favorite lads. Cat food, Aussie Mandius. That's like a chip points out that it may be a tax right off because it's maybe a residence. I believe it is a Greenwood cemetery in Brooklyn. Yeah, it looks like it. And Greenwood does have its fair share of such things. I think technically what happens is that if cat food, Aussie Mandius decides he doesn't want it after all, it has to like revert back to the cemetery and then the cemetery will then sell it back to Logan. They kind of made it sound like Logan bought it from cat food. Aussie Mandius. This is my favorite. Factoid of New York City law is that if you want to transfer or sell your plot in a cemetery, a specific Greenwood to someone else, you can do so only if I love this so much. The person you are transferring it to is within three degrees of consanguinity. Oh my God. Isn't that awesome? That's another like Habsburgian type. Yes. What does that mean? I'm sorry. Basically, they have to be like a second cousin. Yeah. Oh, I don't think Logan was related to that. Well, he had the cool five mils. So who's going to say? He had the five mils. It's like five million, but yeah, it's like forever. Good. Yeah. There's no maintenance charges. But the size of it, he's just clearly presuming that everybody's got a lot of be buried with him and I don't think anybody shared with him that that was. Not long. Like Connor wants to be more than anything. Connor and Roman. I'm going to have to check with Willa. But like I wouldn't mind having a bunk. Yeah, that's true. That's true. But like how I'm sorry again, mausoleum, what exactly happens? So you just get you're just in the past. And then on, well, actually the star of the show is in a casket inside that like stone square thing. That big like, you start cobblestone marble crypts being inside. Yeah. So you go ahead and decompose. But Connor says he didn't want to go in the ground, which is so ozzymandious, right? I'm too good for that. Everybody else decays underground. I'm going to decay just in my box here. And then everybody else goes in the drawer nearby and it's so set up to understand that like this is the guy you care about, nobody spends any time over there reading those names on those. Who can say shit about those people? Let's just keep things where they ought to be. And do you think do you think like Marsha wants to wind up in there as well? No way. Marsha is going to find a new boyfriend and live happily. I reckon that Peter and Caroline definitely want in Peter definitely does Peter does. He's just Peter and Roman who wind up in there. Peter and Connor. Yeah. Well, I don't know. I see Connor like getting his ashes spread in all sorts of weird ways. Well, he was really into cryogenics. Oh, that's crazy for Craig. Crazy. Crazy for Craig. I really love that at the very last second, she says, well, I'm really intrigued to see how he gets out of this one. I like that too. It's very funny. I was thinking how the Caroline Peter Munyan marriage is very much like the shiv Tom marriage in that like Caroline's constantly out there undermining him to whoever she can talk to and just like making nasty digs at her husband who's a social climber. It's the same marriage, right? Is shiv that rude about Tom to other people? Yes. I mean, that was the plot of the election. Totally. She was going around undermining him. Everyone is not too spicy or whatever she says. Yeah. Yeah. If I said that about my husband in front of mixed company, I'd be like, I think we found the couch for days. Yeah. And she's not a book writer. Her husband was going to be fired from her family. Yes. So that was sort of interesting. Like it's the same. It's the same dynamic. What's up, guys? I am Ashley Evan and I am your father. I'm Elena Joy. I am mommy. And I'm Mackin Jimmy, your hot teenage brother. Baby, Mack is baby. We are your chosen family because you don't have a gay family and you need a gay family. Every week we bring a topic to the family dinner table from gender dysphoria to monogamy to how to figure out if someone is into you. Listen to chosen family every Wednesday on your favorite podcast app or watch full episodes on YouTube to get the full family experience. Chosen family is a part of the Forever Dog podcast network. Hey listeners. Lizzio Leary from Slates What Next TBD. I want to tell you about an exciting event we are doing with our friends at the Waves. Do you love succession? If you want a deep dive into the show's feminist heroes and villains and here are smart women investigate the fashion, power and relationship dynamics of one of HBO's most successful shows, join us for a very special women of succession virtual event. It's hosted by me and it is exclusively for Slate Plus members. It's on Tuesday, May 23rd at 5pm Eastern and you can sign up now at slate.com slash waves event. See you then. Avi, I wanted to ask you about the sales pitch that Matt's in gives to Menken because that was super interesting to me. The Menken is like some other fuckers I don't want in the tent. He's like, I am a Nazi and so I want to hang out with other Nazis. Madison then says to him, we are making the thing that everyone has. It's either a couple of tiny men in your pocket or a gateway to broad cultural influence. He's basically saying you can own Kendall and Roman. Clearly you can boss them around and get what you want and they can be your loudspeaker and they are not going to get to call the tunes. Or if you don't block the deal, then you can have all of Gojo. You can have a relationship with something which is actually culturally much more relevant. And from Menken's point of view, it seems like from the call that Madison makes to Shiv that he is convinced he would rather have a grown up relationship with Madison and Shiv where he gets access to the makers of culture so that he can turn America into a Nazi paradise or whatever his dream is rather than just having a mouthpiece in the easy end. Yeah. I thought it was interesting because part of what he said was I have what everybody wants and very few people understand how it works. There is a way in which even the most broad internet communication is still a little bit lending itself to the Nazi worldview that only a handful of people should be in charge of it. And I thought he was offering that I, a Swede, who says, Vilkam into you when you walk up to me will be one of the few people, don't you want somebody like me to be with you in being the few people who understand this? Right. Exactly. And you're being enough, offered an alliance with Mark Zuckerberg. You will take it, right? Because Mark Zuckerberg has the ability to shape history and the whole Cambridge Analytica thing was basically, you know, was that hacked by someone else, but no one doubts whether or not there was any truth to that. No one doubts that if Zuckerberg wanted to shape history by like twiddling the algorithm, he could. Yeah. So he who controls the algorithm controls the world. And I thought that was what Matt's in was saying in that that's what he was offering up. And if you feel better with a girl and an American as a CEO, that's fine. That's fine. I felt like she was really coming into an Ivanka space in this episode, right? Like swallowing her so-called progressive ideals and just going along because this is where the power is. I mean, she basically says this much. Yeah. Sure. My dad was flexible. I can be flexible. Right. Exactly. And I'm going to aspire to. I think Ivanka is more flexible than Chip. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like there is no limit. I mean, I think we saw in this episode that there is no limit to how flexible she can become like she was the one who refused, you know, who was almost refused to stand next to Mengan at that photo op in the last season, right? And now she's like, yeah, I can work with you. Yeah. Yeah. She's come a long way. Last time she was in flexible was on the election night coverage, you know, and look what it got her total failure. So maybe she's incorporating that lesson. Or maybe it's just a short-term thing to get the Matt's in deal to go through. I mean, I think she cares more about the Matt's in deal going through because she has a line on power there. If she can get the Matt's in deal to go through and become massively wealthy because the Matt's in deal goes through and they get $3 billion each or whatever it is and she winds up a CEO of the combined company, then that is the greatest conceivable win for any of Logan's heirs. And in a TV show called Succession, clearly she becomes the successor and she is running an even bigger company and she is CEO and the other two siblings are nowhere. Yeah. I feel like the chances of this happening in the next one episode that we have left are slim. But that's clearly the dream. Yeah. Yeah. I'm so curious what they're going to do next week because like there are so many loose ends that need time. It seems like they're setting up Shiv vs Kendall in terms of who gets to be in charge. But just knowing the show for the past few years, like they always lose these kids. So I can't imagine them winning in the next episode, right? I don't know. I feel like I saw Kendall step into it, you know, and there felt like a real possibility that maybe he could change himself enough to fit into it. There's always a lot of misdirection in the episodes. But my gut is still Kendall because the first season focused so heavily on him, everything seemed to revolve around him. And I think if they had the end in mind when they started it, then Kendall probably ends up on top. I feel like the failure of the Gojo stocks to react to the news of the fake Indian accounts has basically made it impossible for Kendall to do his reverse viking and find bigger Gojo. Yeah, because that's when Madison phones up Shiv and it's like, what did he call it? The Red Devil or something? The Red Devil. You start through. You start through. Right? It turns out that this was the best time to bury bad news and no one seems to care. Oh my God. Well, nobody's talking about how actually with everybody setting things on fire up and down the streets across the country, I don't think the share prices of anything are doing very well today. It's a little bit Tiana many out there. Yes. Yes. Yes. I mean, my God, what's going to happen? We know from these last few years, you can't put that genie back in the bottle really easily. And so what the question is, where are we headed? We're in an imaginary place now that could be the kind of civil worry out there. Yeah, I do think in this world that if Menken becomes president after all those votes that were almost suddenly cast against him went up in flames. You can just imagine how out of control that protest would be not just in New York, but everywhere. Yeah, protest and counter protest. Inevitably, that would come to blows. I mean, which is sort of how I feel about what's happening here now. But what do you think, Gabby, about the ending of this episode with Roman fighting all of the protesters? And like when one of them tries to help him, he's like, fuck you, don't touch me. Yeah. This is heartbreaking, really. So not in the sort of pathos, but pathos kind of way. I mean, he was just, you know, taking as a masochist that he is, just taking the beating that he knows in his heart he deserves. I mean, it's just that was just Harper. That was like him listening to his father's words over and over again on the at the end of another episode where he's just listening to, you know, you're just you have a small daker, whatever it was. He said at that end of that episode was just him flagellating himself. It was heartbreaking. In terms of favorite lines, I'm going to say that like I propose that fucked up politics of America and of this show, I think my favorite line of this show is probably when Lucas says I'm just saying you are nearly as mature a democracy as Botswana. Oh, yeah. Just saying. Oh, yes. And he's not wrong. No, he's not wrong. He's been a democracy for like 50 years. Yeah. She didn't like him saying that. It's like, no, wait, wait. Oh, yeah, black people. Not if you don't count the black people, which is a bad habit. Yes. I liked ships saying I thought I heard Dalmatians how like when her mom. Oh, absolutely. That was great. Oh, yes. She's so great. She also says to her mother, by the way, she says, don't they grow up emotionally stunted that way when she talks about just handing her baby off to somebody. I'm kind of not. I liked you would never have dared not to come to his funeral when he was alive. Yeah. Which is true. But then Tom responds with like, well, he's lost a significant amount of his influence. Yeah. Also true. Probably the most true line in the whole show. That's the whole point. And that's the problem. Yeah. Yeah. Mine was when a meekin is asking Matt's and what his politics are. And he says privacy pussy pasta. And then just. Yes. Well, and it says anarcho capitalist Parmesan. Right. But that's, yeah, that's like, it's true. That's definitely the Elon part of Matt's and right there. Yeah. I mean, we just had this past week, we had a completely insane Elon interview on CNBC where he was just basically saying he was so into this concept of being able to go out and say racist things on the internet that like he will happily blow up an entire guy. A company and $44 billion to do it. And he quoted the princess bride. He quoted Inigo Montoya in the princess bride saying, off of me money, off of me power. I don't care. And then bless him. We love him more than words can say. Mandy Pertinkin came out on Twitter and said, I do not think the one I mean. Okay. So what's coming up? Do we have a clue has this episode really helped us narrow the potential space of possible outcomes here? Maybe. I mean, Roman seems not not to be emerging victorious in the next episode. Roman's going to be very bruised in the next episode at the very least. He's going to have a black eye, I think. He fucked it, as they say. There's the way he kind of said. Character as is it. He says, you thought you were dad. You tried to dad it. You failed. You tried to dad it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that was another piece of evidence for me that he was taking on the killer persona. And that's another reason why I thought, oh, okay, maybe he's stepping into it now. But who knows? It's like, well, it's a great cliffhanger, right? Because you now have the two viable possible CEOs after all of this jockey egg for positioning and this willingness to just crush each other and still get into the limo together and chat on your way to dad's dinner. Yeah. The one thing this episode did do was to cut off the thing that was the big possibility at the end of last season, which is that Matt's and just takes over and the kids know where they get cashed out and they become free floating rich kids putting together the hundred or whatever, right? That is now not the possibility. If Matt's and takes over, then he comes with Shiv attached and Shiv has this amazing, she's playing it both ways, right? She's like, on the one hand, I get to be the CEO of the combined company and run everything. But on the other hand, she's telling Matt's and like, you're the chairman of the world, whatever, I'll be your puppet. Yeah. Yeah. But that felt very like a cagey way of promising something, you know, easily broken. Kendall, Kendall and Rowan, you know, promised to be the puppet of the board and just like make the deal go through and they broke that promise off for about 25 seconds. Yes. And Menken's supposed to be Roman's puppet? No. Yeah. Exactly. Menken is definitely not. Did you notice that? What was it, Frank? No, it was Carl who says to Kendall a couple of episodes ago, I got your dick in my hand. You got my dick. And then Kendall says he's got our dick in his hand. We need his and ours. He's learning, man. He's learning. There's a lot of people wanting a lot of other people's dicks in there. Meanwhile, you know, Roman just wants to have sex with Marshall on his dad's coffin. Yeah, Roman. Oh my God, with the mother figures. Oh, God. I don't know, man. I mean, I guess I sort of see Abby's angle that Kendall emerges here as like the rightful successor to his dad. But on the other hand, this is succession. No one ever wins anything. And especially Kendall, he's always about to win. And then he fucks it every time. You know, every season. He's patriarchy though, like who's going to win? Yeah, can't shoot. Who's going to win? And if this is in any way going to be, you know, a satire of the way it works, then the only way it can possibly work is for the oldest male child to step into that quasi pan-habsburg and lion's succession and take over, you know? And his like, I mean, I always said, it's very Henry IV because Henry IV is all about Henry the fifth running around and messing things up and doing stupid things, his friend and false staff and all of that. But it's all about like how he sheds all that stuff and becomes the king. And that's where I think the Shakespeare comes into it. Or everyone could die. And then Fortenbros, this is a theory in that. I've been talking about it. And then Fortenbros, who's like from Norway, something. I think so. One of those things. To the Northern. Yeah, exactly. Maybe. I didn't even think of that, of course. I love the way they are always showing off their expensive education. They like to throw that out there with the Aussie Mandi escorts and so forth. Or all these money changers in the temple. And that's what Kendall says when he walks into that. I didn't know how to say an oral. That's like a remarkable thing for him to say of all people. Oh, I wanted to note that Kendall, I don't think anyone ever gets a real laugh on the show, but he actually got a laugh in his eulogy when I was impressed by that. You know, when he said the thing about money and people laughed, that never happens. And he got applause. Right? And that's the thing that like, you know, Shiv and Ewan and certainly Roman didn't get applause. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Kendall got applause, which is not something you normally, I can't remember people clapping a eulogy. No, I think it goes back to what, you know, Abby was saying it's a, he gives this rousing speech that's pro capitalism, pro money. And so whenever he says, you know, I am the money he made and people kind of laugh, it's definitely like an uncomfortable knowing insidery laugh where everybody in the room is like, yeah, we do care about money and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. But that's the reason we're here. So is the time where you can say the quiet about loud. Yeah. What did he call money? It was something about the corpuscules of life. Life. I mean, it was very gooey that speech and this. Yeah. I mean, it was really scary way. Yikes. I was going to say, I also like that Lincoln calls Roman the grim weeper. Tiny tears, tiny tears. That's when you know it's really over for a robot. You can't come back from the grim. You really can't. Okay. So that's the grand finale. We set it all up. It's happening next week. We will be back a little bit later than normal on Monday afterwards to recap everything. We have a regular sleep money show on Saturday and then Monday afternoon, if all goes according to plan, we will be here on sleep money succession with David Fulkenflick for the grand finale of sleep money succession and of succession. Wow. It's been a ride. It's going to be sad and happy all at once. I'm going to have a shitting tiny tears. What's up guys? I am Ashley Gavin and I am your father. I'm Elena Joy. I am Mommy. I'm Mackin. Jimmy, your hot teenage brother. Baby Mack is baby. We are your chosen family because you don't have a gay family and you need a gay family. Every week we bring a topic to the family dinner table from gender dysphoria to monogamy to how to figure out if someone is into you. Listen to chosen family every Wednesday on your favorite podcast app or watch full episodes on YouTube to get the full family experience. Chosen family is a part of the Forever Dog podcast network.