145. Joe Gray Interview! G.O.A.T. Mountain Runner on his Life and Journey!

Woo, welcome to the Stemwork All Play podcast. We are so happy to do with you today. Happy Tuesday. It's Tuesday. David, I'm feeling ready to run real fast on the Tuesday. I'm feeling the inspiration bump from Joe Frickin' Gray. Yeah, Joe Gray, maybe one of the fastest athletes that has ever done trail running across so many disciplines, not just trails, Total Beast, this is like getting to live in New York City watching Babe Ruth in the 1920s, or live right now and get to see LeBron James, one of the best basketball players ever, still going strong at 38. Joe Gray is 39 and has been crushing it for decades at the top level of international sport. It's incredible to see and to get to witness. And we got to witness first-hand, so we've been on a few world's teams with Joe, starting in 2014. And in 2014, he was already done, he had already won many, many national championships, and over the last eight to nine years, he has just added to that. His stats are nuts. Can I actually, can I say his stats? Because I'm just blown away. I like numbers, I'm a numbers person, and I'm blown away by these numbers. Okay, I might need a math course before you go and get into these big numbers, but let's do it. Okay, Joe has won 22 national championships across multiple different disciplines. That includes cross country, mountain running, most recently, snowshoe racing. Joe just tore it up on snowshoes. He's a two-time world mountain running champion, and he's just an all-around athlete. And it was really fun to talk about his athletic prowess on this podcast. And speaking of that 2014 team, it brings back some memories for me. So at that race to qualify, Joe won the national championship, of course. I was a number of minutes behind Joe, but I also made the team. You crashed. Well, for me. But still, I didn't really see Joe much in that race, so not to say where peers or anything. But then we get to Worlds, which was early that year, and the night before the race, Joe is team captain, takes us into the room, and it's just like, okay, we're gonna do a strategy session, much like they would do in cycling or something. And he's talking about the important places of the course, where you need to make your moves, who you need to draft off of. And the whole time I'm like, Joe, we're playing a different game. I'm just gonna try to survive. Sure enough, I finished many, many minutes behind Joe, who crushed it there, as he does every time. And it was just an ultimate experience to get to see him in his element on the same team as him. And we try to bring that out a lot in this interview. We talk about his journey as an athlete, and how it feels to be one of the best that I've ever lived. But then also some of the pressures that come with it, and the pressures that come with being a black man in America, and a sport that doesn't have almost any diversity in some of the issues that he's faced with racism from when he first got into running to now. It was a really inspiring conversation. We also talked a lot about sponsorship and the financial aspects of sport, and how Joe has thought about that over his long and storied career. I also really like the conversation. So Joe is a sub-ulture runner predominantly. And we talked about some of the differences between sub-ulture racing and ultra-racing, and how he can make sub-ulture racing just more sexy and predominant in the trail running culture. I think it's important. We're on a mission to do that. Like, short distance ultra running, or short distance running is really, really fun. It's so fun. You know, just more generally, Joe is emblematic of so many great things that running can be. You know, he's put himself out there with this longevity in sport that is so inspiring, and I think we should all try to follow. He also represents something so much more to so many. I have seen in athletes training logs when they say, you know, Joe shows me someone that looks like me performing at that level, and it inspires me. One of the things I mentioned on the podcast is that the ultra-rhear rankings just came out. And one of our athletes who was on the West Coast said, yet again, no more black people in the top 10. And his point being, how can people achieve something that they're not ever exposed to through the running media and things like that? And Joe has faced these issues head on. He has confronted the racism, but then he also advocates and does so many cool things in the running community to lift up and find inclusiveness, not just like explicitly with his presence in the sport, but then also confronting implicit bias and everything else that is a really big issue in a sport that can be so damn white sometimes. I think the best way to describe Joe is just a straight legend. He's a legend in everything he does, and he's gonna be a legend in the legacy that he leaves behind. We talked a lot about his legacy and what he thinks about being this role model in sport, and it was really fun. We also talked about junk food too, which I think is important. Joe Gray, the legend, the LeBron James of trail running eats junk food, and that was music to my ears. Yeah, my favorite part was he's like, I was like, what differences did you have to undergo as you've aged? So he's 39 now still competing at the top level at really high VO2 max sports, which usually regressed a little bit sooner. He's essentially said, you know, the whole cake, I don't really do anymore, it's like half the cake. And I'm like, okay, that really aligns with swap, that you're still eating enough always. You just might cut back a little bit on the straight cake binge and just have cake proportion for your activity level. We talked with Joe and, you know, he's shown his athletic prowess across many different running disciplines, but we have yet to see him perform in a long ultra. And our mission is to get him to Western States and to power him with cake and Oreos. We should make him a special Oreo cake for me. That would be so good. And the other thing we can supplement it with is with some athletic greens. So getting to our little promos before the episode, athleticgreens.com slash swap SWAP SWAP. We swear by it, we are seeing really cool things. Last week on last week's episode, we asked athletes to send in their heart rate response. Graphs, when they first start taking athletic greens. And I've seen athletes have blented heart rate response at lactate threshold, meaning that they're able to push a little bit harder, not for everybody, but try it if you're curious. Athleticgreens.com slash swap. We didn't ask Joe about athletic greens. We totally missed that boat. So the problem is I kind of worship Joe because even I remember being the younger 20s kid and racing with Joe and just looking up to him in such a way that I would never risk Joe's disappointment. Because if he said, fuck athletic greens and fuck you for supporting me, I would just cry myself to sleep because it's too much respect there. Well, you talked about Joe getting really fancy in the team meeting talking about drafting. You should draft off Joe when he eats athletic greens. It would be like the turbocharged approach. Definitely. And then final promo here is our Patreon page, patreon.com slash swap SWAP SWAP SWAP. There we do bonus podcasts every week where we go through listener questions. Usually five to 10 really cool questions every week on everything from training to life. It's like this podcast, but even better I think. And we also do a sexy science corner right up every week that's really fun. So we're putting a lot of our content there as we transition away from some of the other places you might see our stuff. So patreon.com slash swap. Or we do three to four questions if we get very distracted by a fun intro, which tends to happen. Sometimes we have little diversions about life and movies and training and all kinds of fun things. So, but there's always a lot of fun happening on Patreon. But also too, if you like this podcast, like, subscribe, review, whatever you do to podcasts, it truly helps us out a ton. And it's been fun to bring on different interviews and different people in this process. And most importantly, as we get to this episode, go follow Joe and lift up what Joe's doing. Because Joe is 39 now. I have no doubts that he's gonna compete at the very top level for years to come. But you don't get to see the best, the goat in real time in every sport while you're in it, right? Like I was gonna ask him, how many people do you think will ever match your accomplishments? And that was a leading question because I don't think it's ever gonna happen. I think Joe is one of a kind. I think we're getting to see a true goat in sport, a greatest of all time. And so let's go appreciate him while we're at it. Let's support what he supports. Let's back Joe up in his journey to legendary status. So excited. Do you think you can win 30 national championships? 33, it's 22 is your lucky number. He's at 22 right now. 33 is my lucky number. Do you think he gets to 33? I'm not gonna bet against Joe. I don't think that that, I don't think anyone that's ever bet against Joe has had that bet payoff. They're probably quite destitute at this point. So let's support Joe. Let's also support everything he represents from longevity to diversity in sport, to eating tons and tons and tons of cake. The Oreo cake totally co-occigned that. So without further ado, it's Joe Gray. Joe Gray, it's so good to see you. It's been quite a while. I'm so pumped. We go way back. Actually, the every time we've seen you as we've gone way back, it's always been surrounding races. And it's so nice to just sit down and have a conversation with you. I'm so pumped. Yeah, no, thank you guys for having me. And it's, yeah, it's really good to see your faces. And in real time here, it's been years. And I think both of us, all three of us have gone through so many different life changes. So it'll be cool to kind of catch up on those things. Yeah, it's eye opening. I think it's good to catch up here because I've never been able to get anywhere near catching up to you in a race. Our listeners will like it. I've gone beat by Joe by like 10 minutes in races that are half marathon long. So Joe is at a different level of any athlete, I think in US history. And I think some of our listeners might not know your full story and the extent of your dominance and how much you are a role model in this sport. So our goal is to talk about that a little bit today. So first, I wanted to start with, you just won the Snowshoe US National Championships. Congrats. Oh, thank you. Thank you. Yeah, where'd that come from? You know, during the winter, I like to, a lot of times I just take a lot of time off and just kind of, you know, get my mind ready mentally for the next season. And this winter, you know, I kind of want to try something new and, you know, try some road racing, try some snowshoeing. Even did, you know, a couple of track workouts with some of my teammates over the years. And just kind of just playing around with everything and just having fun and just exploring fitness in different ways. And so the Snowshoe race, I wanted to do something, you know, cross country or something racing-wise this winter. And cross country, the nationals for it, the course was, in my opinion, it was garbage, it wasn't real cross country. I don't want to say it's garbage in disrespect like the race directors, but you know, it's not what I would consider real cross country. I think real cross country, you know, I have numbers as to what I feel a course should, you know, hold up to to be considered real cross country. But it wasn't a course that I felt was, you know, cross country, so I decided to do snowshoeing instead. Well, you won. I mean, for our listeners, you've won the US cross country championships. We're not just talking someone that is dominated on the world level and trorning. That was the year it was in Bend, right, you won? Yeah, yeah, there. And I won some NAGAC championships and some Pan Am's in cross country as well. So basically course gets hard. No one's touching Joe freaking Gray. We actually had a very serious conversation too before we recorded and David was like, we shouldn't bring up any specific numbers of Joe Gray, whether it's like world titles or national titles because they're always continuing to evolve and grow. And we could be totally wrong. Like the four world championships could be five or six at this point. It's so wild, your dominance. Yeah, and I think that's the place we wanted to start because I remember back in 2014, when we were on the mountain team with you, that I'd already thought you had been in this sport for a long time at the top level. At that point, you would think you won your first US mountain national championship in 2009. Is that right? Yes. Yeah, so 2009, we were on that team with you in 2014. I remember being, oh man, this guy's already a legend. And now we're talking 2023 and you're still mounting up these accolades when national championships again last year. I think we have 20 time, 21 time US national champion. Is that correct? Yeah, it depends on some people say if it's not USATF, like then, you know, like snowshoeing, would that be considered? I don't know what to say on that. I feel like if it's called a national championship and you've won it, we're counting it. And I think 21 is special because now you're exhausting all the fingers and all the toes. So, one extra. Well, it would be 22, I think now. Oh, 22. It would be 22. Yeah, I told you. You can sit or snowshoe. So, you know, on that, do you think, like we're buttering your bread here, you know, we have a lot of perspective on what you've done. But do you think your accomplishments are as respected as they should be within the sport of running? I think it's respected amongst my peers, people who, who I've raised, people who know the sport. Yeah. Whereas like, if you are just kind of a fan of the sport and you just look at, you know, running media, you may not understand it just because you never raced me or you maybe never tried to do some of the races I've done. So, you maybe don't have perspective. And, you know, I think our sport really jumps behind, like ultra running has a lot. It's a big engine. There's a lot of different media sources behind ultra running specifically. And so, if you're not specifically an ultra running, you might get overlooked in our sport sometimes. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Actually, anytime that you're on any starting line, whether it's a short distance race or a slightly longer short distance race than David has signed up, I'm like, I'm sorry, David. I'm really, truly sorry about this situation that you have to race, Joe Gray. It's just different levels. It's different levels. My favorite images though are like occasionally, I've been close to you at like mile one. Right, right. And then we hit like a steep climb. You just kind of like jump up the mountain. It's really hard to describe. You have a really powerful stride on steep climbs. And, you know, you've channeled that to winning world champions. But, you know, there's really no precedent for an athlete going this long at the top level, unless we're starting to talk about like kip chow gay and athletes like that. What keeps you going? You know, you've kind of accomplished all the risk to accomplish in our sport and even beyond. So, what keeps you going? What keeps you pushing, doing all the hard training, going all year? You know, one side of it is, I think I'm skeptical of myself. I'm like always doubting myself on my biggest career again. And I feel like I'm always chasing something and always chasing doubts that I have about myself and what I can accomplish. And then the other side of it is now anyway. Something that I think you guys probably are experiencing or soon to experience. But I think when you have children, you want to be an example for them hard work because I think there's a lot of people we come across daily who don't understand hard work. They don't understand work ethic. And some of the views that they come up with are some of the things that come out of their mouth. You understand that work ethic is a very big deal and it can help you in life in more than just athletics. And so, just this way of showing my children work ethic with athletics, you know, I hope it translates to other areas in their life when they grow up and that they can see kind of what I've gone through and my trials and tribulations in athletics and how that helps push me in different ways. Yeah, so you said something there about doubts which from the outside, anyone that's followed your career, they might be like, how? I'd love to ask you about that. So when it comes to these doubts you might sometimes feel, what does that look like for you? Like what are your thoughts going into one of these big races? How does that manifest? You know, like for example, this last year at the vertical, the national championships just from Mount Vernon at Loon, you know, one of the doubts is, can I win again, right? Like even though I've won it a couple times in a row consecutively, but in my mind, I'm like, well, every good thing comes to an end, like can I win it again? And so it's like I challenged myself, but then on top of that, there's a lot of these new faces that we're joining in to the race this year, a lot of really good athletes who have strong accolades from objectively fast, you know, high performance type of events like track a field of cross country and road racing. And then obviously you have the perennial guys, you know, like Wacker and guys who've been on the team who are strong every year. And so just having doubts like, can I beat those guys? Can I compete with those guys? And so, you know, in my mind, I'm like, yeah, you probably can't, but let's just see if you can't. Do you view the doubts as fuel or do you, is it something that like you dread? I would say it's probably a little bit of both, right? Like when you're going against somebody who's really good and they're going to push you really hard. Yeah. Dread it to some extent because you understand what it's going to take to accomplish that goal. But on the other hand, it is fuel at the same time. So, you know, it definitely burns hot and it motivates you to take that race series and come in with the right mindset, you know, to push yourself to be the best that you can be on a day and towards victory. And that's how you get 22 National champions. Exactly, yeah. Do you ever dread the physical pain associated with all of this because, I mean, to perform at the level that you're performing consistently. Especially in short races. In short races, and I've heard you talk about the pace between like short races and ultra sports before, short distance races hurt a hell of a lot. Like they hurt so bad and it's totally different than the long distance type of burn. Do you dread that feeling of pain at all associated with racing? If something's wrong, then like going into the race, like like going into the bikes this year, I was kind of getting over COVID. So, and I knew how it felt, right? Like I had tried to run, I had tried to work out. So I understood like, oh damn, this is, this is going to hurt, this is going to be different than I'm used to and different than I was hoping. And so, you know, I think when something's wrong, or if you're hurt, you know, injury, that the pain is definitely something you're going to do, because you know what's going to happen. You know how it's going to feel way harder than normal. And, but on a typical, if I'm training well and you know, all is well and you're healthy, I'm not dreading that so much as I'm focused more so on the end result. Yeah. It's so impressive because especially, I mean, I think uphill specific mountain races, some of the most intense physical pain I've ever experienced in a beautiful way. I mean, it's a total journey when you're out there, but it's unique, it's hard, it's challenging. Yeah, Joe mentioned Loon Mountain, where you want to get another national championship in 2022. That's where we qualified on the team with you in 24th. Right. And we decided after that, that we were not going to do anymore uphill races, because it hurts so bad. And meanwhile, you've gone on to win like, you know, a dozen of these things. So it's pretty remarkable. It's so remarkable. I guess one question I have for you is about the difference between like short distance racing and ultra racing in our space. David and I are on a mission. Short distance racing is objectively sexy. Like I think if we had an NBC show for like short distance mountain running, it would be quite attractive. It's the stories are great. It's really fun. The pain-gives is unique and beautiful, but I don't think it gets the attention that it deserves compared to ultra running in our space. And I think you're a great person to talk about this, given your reign and dominance. What do you think we need to get short distance running to be the like a bigger focus in the running community in the training community specifically? Well, I think first off too, like one of the things that's really difficult when you're comparing the two is like they're very different types of races. Yeah. And they're going to attract different types of people. As you said, you know, shorter races, they're hard. There's a mental component that goes into it. There's talent. There's genetics that play a huge role in it. And you know, it's not as accessible. Like for example, we don't know, you know, like when we look at track and field, we don't pay attention. Like the average runner is not paying attention to the 5K top athletes. Why? Because it's way beyond them. It's like, I can't even see myself running 12 minutes for a 5K, so I'm not even, you know, a 12, anything for a 5K. It's like so beyond them. And to even imagine what that would be like. And so one of the biggest problems, I think in our sport is that a lot of the fans of the sport they look at longer as better. They don't understand that every race can be hard. Like I have people asking all the time, they're like, oh, you know, this race is so hard. And it's like, yeah, a mile is freaking hard. If you want to be good at it, you know, like every distance is hard. A 400 meters is hard if you want to be good at it. You know, because in every event, you're going to have to put yourself. It's different. It looks different how you push yourself in different distances. But another big issue too, I think, is in ultra running, the elite top field is quite diluted. It's small. So it's easier for media to focus on these athletes and turn them into stars. As opposed to, you show up to a major world championship, like a sub-alcher one, or, you know, one of the big cup events in the World Mountain Running Association. There's a lot of good athletes, and there's some athletes that people don't know because they're jumping from another sport. You don't typically get to debut at a major ultra event. So, you know, in the sub-alcher world, it's more competitive, I would say, just because you can't hide behind a lottery system. You can't hide behind the fact that the race doesn't have, say, prize money. It's maybe a belt buckle, so it's not going to attract top-top objectively talent, you know, the objective talent because they don't want to go there. It's not worth the risk to them to run 100 miles for a belt buckle. And so, you know, it appeals to Western culture because they're, you know, especially being Americans, it's a huge benefit because we can get sponsored a lot easier than, say, East Africans. And so, if you're from East Africa, you're not going to get into UTMB more than likely because you're not going to qualify for one because the qualifying isn't going to have enough money to draw you in or help you sustain your lifestyle. And, you know, so then you're probably not going to get a sponsorship for all to running. And so, a lot of them end up going into the sub-alcher world where, like I said, it's like the Wild Wild West. You don't know who's going to show up. It's a very painful race, especially you get guys in there who take it out hard, like almost like that road running across country background and, you know, yeah, it's two different sports. So, I think the best way to grow the sub-alcher running or, you know, the classic amount of races and things like that is to take the time and focus on the athletes and focus on the stories behind those athletes. And, you know, so people understand their background, you know, what kind of athlete we're dealing with. You know, we look at the national championships at Loom Lasher for the vertical championship. There's a lot of top athletes there that people don't know because they're coming from different areas. So, if you're only trail running, you know, focused, you wouldn't be able to value or understand just how good a Garrett Heath is or Eddie Owens. You know, these guys are very good runners coming into mountain running. And, you know, I think our sport doesn't do enough to build up the stories behind some of these athletes. Yeah, do you think... Like, as you're traversing your career, you're 39 now, is that right? I am, yeah. I just turned 39 up. Do you think you're gonna make a transition to alters at any point? So, you've had success at 50K in certain events. Do you think you're gonna do that at any point? I'm sure. I mean, I don't know if I'll do it as a professional, but, you know, like, it might be fun to just do a hundred mile race, like, when I'm retired and just for fun, for an adventure. I don't know if it makes the most sense for me because, you know, I look at the sport as a job also. Yeah. I have mortgage, I have kids, I have a family, I have things that I'm saving for, things that I want to do with my family and build their futures for my children. And so, I look at the sport as a job. And so, I don't want to run a race that isn't gonna be financially intelligent for my wife and my children. I feel like I would have the same advice to people on the start line with Joe Gray at 100 mile race, as I said to David, it's Lord, help your soul. When Joe Gray appears on 100 mile start list, it's like, there's so many potential possibilities when I'm a center for that. If you ever worried about finances, like, swap would just pay money to see you at Western States. Right? You running down those hills to the river at mile 70? Oh my God, that would be like the best viewing ever. We should actually seriously go through this, David. I would love to sponsor Joe from like a swap perspective and just have this like scientific study of what happens when we unleash Joe Gray at Western States and make it happen. That would be so much fun. Well, I think we might have to wait. I'm sorry, we might have to run a more rugged one. Oh yeah, really? Yeah, I think, you know, I'd be more interested in like doing like one that's more rugged. I thought you can be. Yeah, something like that, like a real mountain one. Yeah. Yeah, I'd love to see. I mean, so, you know, 39, how many more of these things do you think you can win? Um, you know, I don't know that number. Yeah. I mean, I honestly, I think if I did know that number, I think one foot's out the door already at that point. Oh yeah, that's a really interesting thing. You know what I mean? Like, if I told you I could only win two more or one more, then yeah, you're done. The possibility is something that keeps you coming back like the maybe there's doubts you talked about. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, like shoot, you know, God willing, if I'm healthy, I'm going to win. And I'm going to, in my mind, I'm going to continue to win as much as I can. And for many, many years, but you know, sometimes it doesn't work out that way. Sometimes you get hurt and you know, life changes and maybe your motivations change. And you know, for me, I know if things change for me mentally, then I know I'm done. And you know, those things haven't changed for me. Yeah. Have you noticed changes physically as you've gone through your 30s in these races? Like, have you had to alter how you train, how you feel indifferent during races? Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, I'm a fan of eating junk food and things like this. And I think I overdo it a lot. And earlier in my career, I could get away with it for pretty much all year. Yeah. Now I know like, okay, you know, the week of the race, I probably need to be a little bit smarter about certain things because you just, you know, you can tell, you can just be different. And you know, you know, that you've been overeating. And I think as you get older, you do develop more eating habits, different types of eating habits. And so, you know, I like to go over it a little bit. And that's something that I've had to, you know, Moai said to kind of remind me, hey, you don't have to eat the whole cake today. You can have a couple of flights a little bit. And maybe that's, you know, things like that. Maybe that's why you've had such an extended, amazing career though, is that cake, maybe your cake powered. I was thinking the exact same thing we've interviewed. We've only done a few select interviews on this podcast. And they've basically been all of the great. So it's been really fun to get to do that. And I think a common theme actually is cake eating or the equivalent of whatever it is, food wise for each athlete. And I do wonder if that's part of your big part of your success. Have you had to change anything in terms of, I mean, we're new parents over here, in terms of dad life or adjusting to that new style and structure of family life? That's a good question. Yeah, I mean, definitely life has changed. I would say having kids has refocused me a little bit. A lot of the things that you do that are unhealthy, you're more conscious about resting, you're more conscious about what you're eating because your kids are watching you, you know, like I like to have some whiskey or scotch every now and then, like you have to be careful about that because it's like they're looking at you and they might get interested in that bottle. So it's like, you know, it's definitely cut some of the habits that I've had down or out of my life to some extent. Yeah, I think, and then there's some days where you wake up and you don't feel good. You know, I think we all have those days where it's hard to get out of bed and you know, maybe you got to work out and you just feel kind of rough. And your kids will say something to you or touch you in a certain way or look at you in a certain way and you go from feeling like, you know, from zero to hero and it's like, I mean, I feel ready to go now. You know, so there's a lot of positive that I think that have come from having children. You know, I never really napped ever and sometimes if, especially if my wife's not here or she's doing something else and it's just me and the kids and they want to take a nap, I'm like, well, maybe I'll take a nap out. You know, so, you know, like I said, I think there's been a lot of like good things like habits that have changed and just being more focused because I know that I have eyes on me. Yeah, I like what you said about it basically embodying the role model of it. And you know, our kid now is just a few months old. So he's still just coming online and we're learning a lot, but that's really, really meaningful. And you're role modeling Fritos for him David. That's your primary source of role modeling. Leo's going to grow up as a Fritos based organism. He probably will. I'm pretty sure. So one of the things that we'd love to do for Leo and for our little kid is give him people to look up to and we need to get a poster of you on the wall. Maybe crossing, I've seen one of you crossing the finish line at one of these mountain champs is what we need. Actually, I want the snowshoe one. So I saw Joe, I saw a picture of you running in snowshoes and it was like, you were basically like running the snowshoes off your feet. It's like anyone has ever run the bus on Snowbook. It was on your Instagram. Yeah, and that's what I want on our walls. Yeah, yeah, well that'll be on our walls. But in that process, I want to tell your story a little bit for the listeners. We don't have to go through like your whole biography. But just because like, I think the story itself that we've talked to you about in person is so interesting and uplifting. It's coming from a different perspective than a lot of the community. And it's so important that we start to uplift all these stories. So like, where did you grow up to start? Let's just go back to the beginning and start there. Yeah, I was a military brat. So we kind of bounced around a little bit, but middle school and a few years of, my last few years of elementary school and high school were in Washington state in Tacoma, Washington. And yeah, that's where I would say I grew up. That's where sports started to come into my life and things like that. And what sports did you play growing up? I feel like Joe Greg could dunk in snow shoes. I mean, you're so athletically talented that I would just love to see and hear about the sports that you've played growing up. Yeah, I mean, we did a little bit of everything. I would say basketball, like from an organized sport, it was mostly just basketball. And I started doing some track and, you know, I did some karate and even wrestled a little bit and got in the boxing a little bit later and still love boxing today. Now that's something, if I retired from running, I would love to be a boxer, but I think I'm too, like a runner's body just, I don't think we translate well into being boxers. M&A, one of your, a Joe Greg Crick, Joe Greg Crick would knock some motherfucker on this ass. That was not a chance. From this quad, I feel like that would be at it. It depends on the weight class, man. Like I think I'm too tall. Like when you get tall, that's when it starts getting dangerous. You start entering those weight classes where guys really have a lot of pop. And so being a scrawny, six, two, six, three guy, I'd have to either gain some weight and go against those real big heavy hitters or drain myself and come into fights feeling a little weak. So, you know, boxing is a tough one. It's funny that you say six, two, six, three because in my head, from just seeing you at races and stuff, you're six, 10. Like, you know, like, you know, larger than life, it's so fun how that happens. So I feel like we have two different missions. So one of them is to get Jurgrader won Western States and the other is to be an MMA fighter and just pump them with tons of cake. You can literally all the cake all the time. Felt it, anyway. I feel like this is your athletic prowess is you could probably equally go in both directions quite well. Yeah, so. I'd have to be a heavy weight to do that. And you gotta, so they gotta be more, I think boxers are probably more disciplined eaters than even runners. Yeah. So flashing back to when you first found running, how did running come into the picture with all these other sports on the table? You know, I was kind of getting into some trouble when I was in middle school and the PE teacher. He used like a lifelong friend. He's a really good friend of mine today, but he talked me into coming out for the track team and he, you know, he was almost kind of like, he could maybe see where I was heading. He grew up in Tacoma. He's seen a lot of guys make poor choices and waste their talent, waste life. And so I almost wonder if, you know, maybe he saw me heading down that road and he kind of wanted to, you know, put a distraction in my life. And he was also the special education teacher at my middle school. And he got me working with the special ed students and got me to come out for a track. And, you know, I think it was just very life changing, I altered a lot of my perspective working with the special ed kids and seeing what they were going through in life. And, you know, there were times where, you know, me and some of my friends, we thought life was so hard and we didn't have this or we didn't have that. And you can complain about the different things that you're going through in life. And then you see these kids and what they're going through and you realize, man, like we should not be complaining man at all. And so, but then also the tracks, the running side, it distracted me. I'm a competitive person by nature. So it kind of pulled me away from maybe those negative things that were going on in my life. And yeah, it just kind of gave me a different focus. That's so beautiful. I mean, I feel like I just can't imagine what a mentor you were. I mean, we talk about your mentorship and what we picture for you as Leo. And I imagine that stretches all the way back into your childhood as you thought about working with the special ed kids. Did you take to running naturally? I mean, as you started running, I imagine you were probably quite good at a young age, was that the case? Yeah, yeah. I was winning. I don't know, I think I rarely lost in middle school. And then I did lose my first race. And I think that's when I actually caught the bug. And I don't think I was training much. I was playing basketball and things like that. And distance running, I just figured I could be competitive. I like to win enough that I could, grit myself and take more torture than the other athletes I was going against. And then finally, I went against the kid who actually trained. And he had talent too. He was a good athlete as well. I knew him. We became friends. We ended up going to the same high school at some point. But his school, they trained a lot. And we were just having fun. And so he beat me by like two seconds. And I remember just being just ticked. And I was like, man, I got to start training. And I got to run a couple times a week. I'm going to be ready next time. And so I just kind of, from there, I think that loss kind of fueled me to fall in love with the sport in some way. So I think I've probably had I not lost. I think that at the end of that season, I'm not sure I would have stuck with it. You never know, obviously, it's like one of those things. But if you go back in time and a month before that, I'm training. And then I beat him. It's like the butterfly effect. Maybe I wake up and today, in present day, and I'm in jail or something or something. Or I'm in some and doing something completely different with my life. So I don't know what I would have done how I won that race. But I'm happy I lost it because it led me down this path. And what a good lesson. And it's also similar to the Michael Jordan as a freshman or whatever, not making varsity. That little spark that just got you going and just kept going. Did you have any, so as you're growing up, did you have mentors in the track and field running cross-country space? Was that something you were even cognizant or aware of growing up? Not so much. It was more so I was inspired by different athletes that I saw and that I read about Jesse Owens and I was always a fan like Dr. J and Cream of Bill Jibar, guys like Dad, and other sports that I played. And yeah, those guys really inspired me and how they carried themselves and their work ethic and their motivation, their drive, all that. It was very inspiring to me. And I wanted to aspire to be great at something athletically as well, just from watching their stories. Yes, so all those athletes you mentioned, Dr. J. Cream, you're talking about black athletes, which kind of a really, it's the most important topic that we have going today. Like when you were in middle school, in high school, were you thinking about race and running much and how you went through the process? Not so much until, I think I've shared this story with people, but I had a race and a rural part. And known to be racist, we played basketball. There were a couple of times when I was younger and words would get thrown around, and bombs would get thrown around. And I want to race there, someone called me the N word. And I think it dawned on me like, oh, I started to look at myself differently at that point. I started to realize like, oh, I am the only black guy out here kind of doing distance running. So it did start to make me self reflect and look at things differently when I heard someone call me that. And it wasn't something really that you would notice regularly, because I played basketball mostly. And where I grew up is pretty diverse. I mean, it's predominantly black for the most part in basketball, but the community was very diverse. Like when you went to the mall, you saw everything. You saw every race, ethnicity, and basketball, same thing. You saw a lot of everything. And so it never really dawned on me, but also in my community, track and field black athletes were typically sprinters or they played other sports or jumps. And so very stereotypical. So me being a business runner, I was definitely kind of like the black sheep. And at that moment, when that person called me the N word, it definitely started to make me just look at everything differently. And I was starting to think that maybe I didn't want to do it anymore. How did that distribute throughout the next few years in your career as you're thinking about college and stuff? You're just figuring out who you are, right? I mean, that is a process that goes on a lot longer, I'm sure, in your life. And you have this experience where you're otherwise in this setting with a slur that comes with all this historical, horrible connotations with it. How does that change your trajectory or how you're thinking about the sport at that moment? You know, like I said, I think the sport was kind of devalued to me a little bit at that point, just from running. You start to see your friends that are sprinters. And they're like, man, they're having a whole bunch of fun. They're around people that look like them. They have people that they can aspire to, that are doing exactly what they're doing, who look like them. I didn't have anybody who looked like me, who were distance runners. And so a lot of times I'm looking to black sprinters, historically, like I said, Jesse Owens and even Michael Johnson, these guys are not distance runners. And I'm looking to them to inspire me for distance running. And I think it was something that was kind of always in the back of my head. And it led me to what I would say in the last few years to promote the idea of trying to support other younger black athletes who have maybe been in the same, in my shoes, when I was younger and feeling alone, and maybe they like trail running. And it's like, I want to be that face for those kids to see that, hey, you can be the only person and you can aspire to be like me. And I can show you that there's a lot of opportunities and great things that can come from it that can lead you down a life of happiness and full of experiences. And so just trying to be a role model and an example for other black kids who were just like me, maybe felt alienated being distance runners in their community. And where do you think we stand on this today in the sport of trail running? I think objectively trail running is not very diverse. And I think that's something that really needs to change in the future. Do you feel like trail running is inclusive in what's been your perspective on that? It's hard to, it's weird because when you're a black person and you're in it, for example, Colorado, it's not, you won't notice it as much in Colorado. Like for example, if I show up to a trail in the springs, people know me, so it's different. If I go like when I've been somewhere way out, right, and someone sees me out there, they're looking at me, like, because I don't fit the bill. Like black people aren't typically out and outdoors, so it looks strange. And so to some extent, you could say that's not inclusive, the fact that you don't feel welcome. Maybe they don't talk to you, you know, you say hello and they don't say anything back. I've had that happen a ton, even in the springs. So I mean, in terms of the inclusivity, there's that issue, but then there's also the fact that running media for many years did not focus on what black athletes were doing or even athletes of color in general in our sport, they didn't get as much attention for mediocre or great feats. Whereas, you know, I think it's pretty obvious and safe to say that if there were a lot of white athletes who had a mediocre and also elite marks that were mentioned or received some some type of cloud or or publicity. Yeah. And especially when I first got in sport, there was a lot of that, a lot of events that I was doing that weren't getting mentioned and people doing the same things and sub-alture that were getting mentioned. And it was like, hmm, maybe I just didn't run well enough or maybe they just don't know me. And it's like, I kept making excuses, you know, for them, for many years, but then I just realized like, no, our sport, we have to make a change to people ahead of the media. You have to be conscious of what's going on in sport, and you have to be intelligent and actually pay attention to sport and make sure that you cover it all, despite what color the person is. I so am not going to put the name out there because I'm asking to share this story. But we're pushing an athlete that lives on the West Coast and he's a young black man and he was looking at the alternate of the year rankings to end the year, which is like the top 10 North American athletes. He's like, I've never seen someone that looks like me in these rankings. And for him, he's aspiring to these levels. And I was almost like, true, and at the same time, like don't put that burden on yourself to be the person that has to stand for a race because then it's not just the difficulty of the sport. You're also dealing with like, you know, hundreds, thousands of years of systemic oppression on your shoulders, which is a lot to run with. Did you feel a burden and do you feel a burden that like when you come on a podcast like ours, race is probably going to come up at some point. And you have to make these big pronouncements that are then, you know, white people like us are, you know, asking you to speak for, you know, an entire community. Does that weigh on you at all? I mean, early on in my career, I would say like, when I first started speaking on it, it definitely got to the point where, you know, I had done some videos with Hoka and kind of bringing up the issues and, you know, you get some of the negativity, like the pushback. And I think that starts to make you feel like, man, this is weighing heavy on me because it's causing stress. But then I realize, you know, just my personality, who I am, I understand that life is not all about me. And sometimes you do have to put yourself in a difficult position to make it better for someone else. You know, there are sacrifices that you have to make in life to make the next generation better. And somebody has to stand up for that, you know, there's been people in every year, every, actually every human to some extent has had to make some type of sacrifice to make life better or make a situation better for someone other than themselves. And, you know, this is one of those situations where I happen to be at the pinnacle of the sport, I happen to be a black athlete. So I understand that I know what it's like to be black and young in a sport where no one looks like you and understanding that there are a lot of us, there were a lot of kids who were like me who left the sport because they didn't have people that looked like them to aspire to. And so I understand the influence I have in the sport and I understand that what I'm doing and what I'm saying, how I live my life, how I compete, can change someone's life. I look at my life, had I not gotten into running. I know where I would be and it's not here, it's probably not having a family, you know what I mean? And I understand that there's a lot of positive things that came from it and so I want to be able to give that gift to other people other than myself that were maybe, like I said, experiencing what I experienced when I was younger. And so I understand now that, you know, it's bigger than me and there are sacrifices that you have to make, you know, to make the world a better place. Thank you for sharing that. That's such a beautiful sentiment. Do you think that process, I mean, I think you've had a damn long career and it's been really impressive the longevity that you've had in sport just to show up and keep training and stay committed. Has that impacted what you think about in terms of your, the duration of your career or have you thought about that in the context of like being a role model for others? Yeah, yeah, definitely. It's one of those things like people give me energy even though they don't know they do like, I am motivated, I'm driven to do certain things because I know people are looking for someone to aspire to or looking for someone in their community to be great at something in a sport where they're not seen, you know, very often. And so it does put some fuel to the fire for me. Yeah, it's remarkable. And, you know, as you leave where you were, I mean, I'm sure as you go to college and you were recruited, it broadens out the world a little bit, right? Because local running is always its own thing when you're in high school. And then you go to Oklahoma State. How did that transition process look for you in, you know, coming into this powerhouse program in running? Like what was that like coming from Tacoma? You know, I was in, I was in Oklahoma. So getting there in the summer when, you know, a lot of the black athletes are not there. Yeah. It was kind of like a culture shock for me because, you know, Tacoma is very diverse. You know, like I said, you have, you see a little bit of it. Every race in Tacoma is crazy. We got this diverse when it comes to food, you got everything. And so you get to Oklahoma, it's a different story. And, you know, I was a little bit concerned and, you know, but then school started a couple of weeks later and you'd forget all about it. And, you know, it wasn't until, you know, certain situations arose where you realize like, oh no, I'm very much black and I'm very much in a place where black people have not traditionally been, you know, I mean, Oklahoma is not a very black state per se. And so, you know, there are definitely some situations that reminded me of that. But for the most part, I think when you're on campus, you don't see a lot of the issues that you might see that I did see when I was way out of town and, you know, when we're traveling and going places, you know, a lot of those issues are kind of late to the side because you don't see it as much. You're focused on, you know, you're in school, you're in class most of the day. You don't have a lot of time to be traveling and just trying to go off into these rural parts of Oklahoma that often. As you're running at okay state and you have a lot of success there, did you envision yourself running for decades longer? Were you like, okay, this is something I really want to pursue after school. When did that like click on for you? That this might be something you pursue. I think man, in high school, you know, I made that goal like I wanted to, I wanted to run professionally, I wanted to be a national champion. I didn't, you know, the numbers that I had that are things that I wanted to do, like in terms of how many times I wanted to represent the US team and beyond national teams, how many times I want to win national championships. Those numbers are really small because I didn't understand like, I couldn't, you can't foresee your future, no one can. And honestly, you know, I had those goals early in life and but I am surprised, right? Like I didn't expect to be at this age still running professionally. I thought it would be very difficult, you know, but the landscape has changed in the sport. Sponsorships have changed a lot. You know, pretty thankful to have sponsors, long-term sponsors that kind of see my dreams and my goals and they align with theirs. And you know, they allow me to kind of chase these dreams and support me financially. Yeah, I would love though to meet that like freshman in high school that says, I want to win 22 national championships. Hey, what would you, if you could go back to you in high school or even early college and tell them, tell that version of you what you've accomplished? What would that person think? I think they'd be shocked at the number of things that have accomplished. They'd be like, wow, that many? Like, that's a lot. But yeah, it'd be interesting to talk to my old self because I feel like I've definitely changed a lot, you know, definitely compared to my freshman year. I was not focused on running or athletics as much as I am today. Yeah. I think one of the hard things about professional running and it's almost counterintuitive until you've lived that life is just how hard of a grind it is with mentally and physically knowing that this is like your financial, your bodily state is like directly connected to your financial success and financial outcomes, which I think is exceedingly challenging. Paying the mortgage. Paying the mortgage, yes, important kids find the family. Right. Huge burden. And I think sometimes it's just not recognized how challenging that is. What was it like coming out of college, negotiating your first sponsorship deal and thinking about yourself as like kind of a business entity? You know, honestly, I don't even think, when I first started, I don't think I understood completely the business side of being a professional athlete as much as I do today. I was very much a rookie and there wasn't a lot of information about it, you know, as there is today, a lot of athletes talk about it. There's a lot of stuff on the internet. There really wasn't that much information and I didn't have a lot of friends who had already made that transition. And so, I don't know, man, it was tough. Going into the first negotiations, you just kind of like, whatever they threw at you, you just took it. I don't care if it was just shoes and $500, whatever, you just took it and you were happy, you were so happy about it. But I think as you grow up and, you know, I started learning more about finances and how much money you needed to sustain your lifestyle and you realize like you need a certain amount of money that you need to make manually. You need to save a certain amount of money annually. You know, I start realizing like, man, I'm never gonna be able to get the things that I want. I'm never gonna attain that American dream, you know, getting just shoes and a couple, you know, a couple grand here and there. And, you know, part of that too is you need to be a better athlete too and you need to get things under your resume, get some things on your resume so that you can attract bigger sponsors and things like that. But then, you know, on the other hand too, I understood that I was gonna have to be better than your average athlete because I was not the typical face of sport, you know, like, I'm not in the media a lot, you know, being a black athlete, there were not a lot of black athletes being promoted or in the media for trail and mountain running. And so instead of maybe some other athlete maybe getting one or two championships and then getting a fat contract, I'm gonna have to win a couple more and I'm gonna have to do a lot more in between that. competitively to get the contracts that I wanted. And so I knew that and it kept me hungry and obviously I felt like I wasn't getting what I was worth for many years. And so it definitely drove me to be focused on, you know, training hard and competing at a high level. It is so fucked up that you had to go through that as you come into the sport and dominate. And it sounds like you were having a little bit of trouble getting some of the purchase with like contracts that some of your white peers might have had at that point. Is that like kind of how you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I'm gonna say names, but you know, like obviously if you follow the sport and I know you two, you guys. Yeah. You guys are very balanced. You guys have enough knowledge on kind of the ultra and sub-altter world. You work with a lot of different athletes. You've been and still are competitive athletes. So I think you guys understand, but you know, some of those athletes that I came in with, some of them, I was battling with some of them. I was beating and they were just behind me. And many of them were able to get deals that I was not able to get. And so, you know, it hurts, but at the same time, I think had I just gotten all the everything that I wanted, everything that I felt I deserved back then. I'm not sure I'd be the man I am today in the sport. How you, you never know. Yeah, how you've reframed adversity at each of these steps is really interesting. I think that that point is so important for our listeners to hear, which I assume, you know, a lot of our listeners are white, a lot of our listeners haven't even thought about these issues other than the fact that like, oh, everybody can go to a trail. But then in every single step of the way, there's these obstacles that you're mentioning that are both small and big and some massive and, you know, probably knock people out of the sport way early. And what kind of system are you? Every step, you're like, this adversity I'm facing that is telling me, no, is something that is going to fuel me to crush some bitches. Is like, really cool. It's really cool. I mean, I wish people didn't have to go through that, but hopefully you've broken some barriers, though I wish we didn't need a trail running Jackie Robinson to do that. Have you thought about, I mean, I think David, as you're talking about obstacles, I think something, Joe, that you've been very outspoken on and David and I have been on this podcast as well, is doping. And I think when you're having these conversations about, you know, financial, I mean, I think doping is, it's so multifaceted because you think about incentives, you think about athletes, you think about everything that goes into it. And it's very, I mean, I think when you're at the level that you're at and you might be losing to athletes that then serve a doping station, it is incredibly frustrating. And I'm just curious what your like general thoughts are about doping and trail running and just kind of the future of where we go in terms of preventing it. Yeah, I mean, I've definitely been cheated out of money before. And thankfully those races had drug testing, so I was able to get my money. But, you know, what about all the races that didn't have drug testing, it makes you wonder. Yeah, I think it's more prevalent than we realize, especially in trail running nowadays, with the lack of anti-adoping in our sport, the lack of outer competition testing in our sport, they've gotten better, but even still, there's a lot of races where we waste funds, like for example, I'm in the outer competition testing pool, I win a championship, and instead of you using that money to test someone who's not in the outer competition testing pool and making sure that the athletes behind me are clean, you waste the money to test me when whose thought is already or water is gonna test me anyway. So it's like, there are times where races don't, you utilize the money properly for anti-adoping, but then on top of it, there's a lot of races that just simply don't have any anti-adoping at all, and they'll have prize money, and it's like, you're not helping our sport at all, you're not helping it at all, and you know, it's like they'll, well, you know, help, don't hinder, and you're hindering our sport in essence when you're not protecting and preserving clean athletics, because if you allow a pathway for cheaters to cheat, they will cheat, you know, it's just like crime, you know, I was a criminology master, so one of the big things when it comes to crime, if there's an opportunity for me to do something, and I'm criminally minded, you know, you got your car right there running and the windows down, and it's a nice Lamborghini, and you're 100 meters away in a store, yeah, I might take your first spin, because it's easy, you've created an opportunity for me to just take your car, and when it comes to doping, you got $5,000 on the line, and there is no anti-adoping, there's no language about anti-doping, and I'm on dope, I'm gonna show up and get that money, and so it's like, it's sad that our sport hasn't figured a way to get more anti-doping and out of competition testing in the sport, but we are doing better, it's much better now, and a lot of the big races do it, especially the races that I choose now, a couple of years ago, right actually, before you guys made that team with me a couple of years before that, I started kind of making sure I would go to races that had anti-doping, and I actually looked at my schedule, and I was making more money annually because of that, as opposed to going just to random any races, top races with money, and so I feel like the races that are preserving the sport, they're also allowing clean athletes to stay on the sport longer as well, and so obviously we want long-term consistent athletes, we don't need athletes who are coming in for a quick buck, and then they're out, they're just cheating, and they're in and out of the sport, so I think the best way for us to improve it, though, is gonna be out of competition testing. Do you know how many trainers in the US are in the out of competition pool? In training? In training. In training. There was a number of years when I was the only one. Yeah, the flail, yeah. That's my point, is I was curious because, we coach Eli Heming, who is in out of competition testing for triathlon, and then when he comes to trails, he's staying in it because he wanted to, kind of, he had to actually be like, hey, keep testing me, rather than, and it seems like it's just, trails are viewed as like, okay, we don't need to test anymore, the best of the best. So that must have been frustrating for you that you're basically the only one. I imagine they're almost triggered at the US cross-champs or something. Yeah, and that's a funny thing, is it wasn't, I don't think it was from a mountain running result. I think it was from, I've been in it a couple times, but the time specifically that I'm talking about, I went in it, they took me out, I went back in, and I think it was because I won the Pan Am's across country. Yeah, and then, the mountain season, I was in the pool, but it was like, it wasn't from mountain running, and it's like, shouldn't it come from your mountain running results, like, shouldn't we have our own dedicated funding to put athletes in the pool? And I know there is some work there, they're trying to do something like that now, however. That's really exciting. I feel like our sport needs that to grow, and to have integrity, and to have these, like, really open, honest discussions on it. Yeah, so you have, you know, done the cross country, you've done road racing, do you have plans to branch out outside of Trelan Mountain in the future in your career too? Outside of like, the stuff that I've already done? Yeah, like, Dude, he's done everything. I know, true. What do you think I do like be a next race? You know what my dream is, Joe? Like, is that you could get to the Paris marathon, be that hilly course at Paris, like it has like 2000 feet of something? I would be my dream, but of course, it's, you know, the US trials are in Orlando. Are you gonna be doing any road racing ahead? Yeah, I think before Trelan season, I'd like to see if I can get a Limbachev standard for the marathon. And, you know, if I get it, I get it. If not, then no big deal. Because like I said, it's, you know, it's winter times just kind of giving me something to chase and then play around, you know, stay motivated during the winter time. Yeah, it's so cool. Do you, I mean, I think you've excelled at all of you. You've reached the top level at all of these different sports. As I was talking with David, like to go to another sport, it'd have to be like be a next racing at this point. Yeah, well. It'd actually be something totally adjacent to your. And while overcoming racism big and small on the way. Yeah, it's really remarkable. Do you actively think, I mean, I think you've left already this massive impact on sport just by being you and, you know, being brilliant and putting yourself out there. Do you actively think about the legacy that you're leaving on sport? And what do you think that is going forward? Yeah, I mean, I think, I don't know if I think about the legacy I'm leaving on the sport, but I definitely think about how I move in the sport, you know, and then the things that I'm saying, you know, the things that I'm promoting and who I align myself with. And those things I think about because I want to be known as someone who aligned himself with companies that actually care about the sport, companies that make top-notch products and make products that actually help you perform at a top level. And, you know, hopefully that example is picked up by other kids and the next generation of trail runners, even, you know, guys a few years younger than me, for them to learn how to move in the sport, but also to stay dedicated and perfect their craft. Yeah, so I mean, I think about things like that in terms of legacy, but not so much like the accolade. Because I'm still in the midst of it and I'm still chasing the accolades. So it's like hard to focus on the value of those and where those land. I mean, I understand that in my mind, I know that it's a big deal and I value it, but it's hard to like, you know, when I win a championship, it's hard for me to focus too much on it right after because it's like, I'm chasing something else and it's like that that championship means nothing when I line up at the next one. Yeah, what would you tell like, a early career athlete that looks up to you, what would your message to them be about how they can, you know, pursue a life in this sport? I mean, I understand that it takes time, like be patient with yourself, be patient with the process, and make sure that, you know, you seek balance. I think that was one of the things that I learned later in my career. I wasn't balanced. I think there were moments where it was just, you know, especially earlier in my career, I was still working like full time and my life was running and work. And it's like, you know, the spiritual side had diminished the mental side. You know, I wasn't self-reflecting or checking with myself or even trying to cater to people in my life or, you know, spread love as much. So I think it's important to seek balance in your life and not be so one dimensional. And it'll help you, you know, stay in love. It'll keep that love fresh. It'll help keep the training fresh. It'll help keep you mentally fresh, physically fresh, and, you know, constantly falling in love with the sport. And if you're in love with it, you'll stick with it long term. That's so cool. That's so beautiful. I love what you said about keeping love fresh. I mean, I think we think about that a lot around here. And right alongside these questions about legacy and role model and advice that you give to you and yourself, I have a very important question for you. Okay, just probably the last question. Yes. This is a big one again. This is a big one. Junk food. You mentioned loving junk food. We are big fans of food around here, all kinds of food, especially junk food. If you could choose only one piece of junk food, to have forever, what would it be? Oh, that's not fair. Okay, we can reframe it. What is your favorite? We can just do it. No, so this is my thing. So if I said Oreos, does that mean I only get one type of Oreo or I get any of the Oreos? Infinite types of Oreos. You can get all the iterations, all the ones like different cream feelings, all that good stuff. Joe is playing chess when everyone else is playing chess. Exactly. Yeah. Oreo chess. Well, either Oreos or Haribo gummies. Oh, I love Haribo gummies. They're so good. Yeah. They're both actually Haribo might be better. They got more, they got definitely more variety like Oreos. I'm an Oreo connoisseur. So I've had almost every Oreo on the planet. And in all honesty, I probably only like maybe like seven of them. But I like most of them, but like seven of them, if I could have my choice, that's the only ones I would have in the house. But Haribo, there's like a good 15 of them that I definitely can rock with regularly. Well, we know how to crew you. We're going to sponsor you and crew you at Western States. We're just going to have platters of Oreos of your selection, Haribo gummies. You can run 100 miles on that alone. I can't wait, Joe. If there's anything, like I know you do a lot of these tips and interviews, what I want is, okay, win a few more national championships. You got to do what you got to do. But then after that, let us get you to a few alternates just so that we can tell the world that, you know, put respect on the name Joe Gray, because no one's ever quite like he has. Yeah, I don't know, man. I can't rule it out. I definitely, I'm intrigued with competition. I'm intrigued with a lot of the, there's a lot of cool races from one mile to 200 miles that are all really interesting. And so I can't rule out anything. Well, there's, you know, lots of kids out there, lots of other athletes out there that look up to you. There's also two podcasters who look up to you so much. So thanks so much for your time, Joe. Huge fans. Joe, you're the best. This was so much fun. I'm like bumping from this. It's great. Thank you guys and congratulations on, I never haven't gotten to talk to you guys since you have this child, but congratulations on your baby boy. Beautiful, looks healthy, looks happy. So. That's the best. We're going to be putting that Joe Gray poster up in his room and he's going to be running real fast. Awesome, Joe, you're amazing. Yeah, maybe I can be a manager for him in a few years. Oh, I do love that. Yeah, that'll be amazing. He'll be there to Korea at Western States too. Yeah. Awesome, Joe, you're awesome. Great day. Yeah, you guys take care.