146. Barkley Marathons, 4 Training Principles for Peak Performance, and Shoe Reviews!

Welcome to the Some Work All Play podcast. We are so happy to with you today. Happy Tuesday. It's Tuesday. And I'm feeling so gloriously rejuvenated. It was amazing. So why do you feel gloriously rejuvenated, Megan? Because yesterday I took an unplanned rest day, which I don't know, I felt like royal donkey poo yesterday. And taking an unplanned rest day is really not fun. I mean, at this point in my life, I've taken so many rest days long periods of time off, but sometimes the unplanned rest day never gets easier. I like it, not the peasant donkey poo. Royal donkey poo. That's how you know it's legit. OK, so how did you feel when you woke up? Because I think it's actually really important as a training topic to think about these decisions that athletes have to make. Because no matter what your coach says, you need to be ready to take that unplanned rest day. How did you decide to make that decision? Well, I'm going to stick with my first descriptor. I felt like royal family donkey poo when I woke up. And it was just like, there was something, I don't know. I was kind of in a bad mood, which for me is pretty rare. And I think I was carrying heavy fatigue. Leo hasn't been sleeping amazing through the night. So I've been stacking busy work and heavy fatigue and I woke up and I just was not stoked on the day, which for me is kind of rare. How did it make you feel to make the decision at all? Because I know that as an athlete, you always want to be moving forward. If you're not working, your competition is it can be a really tough mental moment. Well, I've gotten better at unplanned rest days. They're never, I mean, they're really never fun to take. Yeah. And especially on a Sunday too, I feel like often my unplanned rest days are on a random Wednesday. And I have 10 Zoom calls anyway, so I'm distracted. But yesterday I felt like it took an eternity. Yeah. And it was fun to hang with Leo and with you, but I was like, OK, Dave, we're moving real slowly here. I feel like you could have used some sort of dopamine enhancement mechanism right after you woke up and you decided you were taking it, because I don't know. I felt a little bit like you were getting ready to freak out at any moment. And somehow you avoided it. There was one moment where you were just like noisily cleaning. And not just normally cleaning. You were clearly banging some pots and pans along the way, trying to make a ruckus. And I was like, at any moment, she's just going to freak out and start yelling at me or something. And no, you didn't do that at all. Whenever I get down, I do have this penchant to go about the house and just clean everything. And usually you're like, I'm going to get out of dodge. As you notice me doing the cleaning, you're like, I think I'm going to go upstairs. But yeah, fortunately we got a clean house. And you got fresh legs. Because when you came back today and you had an amazing run. I felt so good. And here's the thing about unplanned rest days. I think I appreciated it so much too. And I just felt like physiologically great. The brain felt great. My whole body felt good. So I was out there and I was just having so much joy. It's great here today. It's not particularly the nicest morning. And I was bringing the sunshine. Well, it was so cool because your pace to heart rate ratio was exactly where it was back when you were one of the best athletes in the world. Which I think means you're one of the best athletes in the world, Megan. How do I feel? I don't know about that. It feels like a bit of a stretch. But I do feel like I'm coming back. And I've been doing hill workouts. I'm feeling empowered in that. So yeah, it's good. It's all the power of the unplanned rest day. Yeah, I mean. And I feel like all athletes need to really internalize that idea. It's anytime you're waking up and you just feel totally down. And it's especially once it starts to stretch over two or three days. And it's not tied to an acute stress. So if this happens after a workout, fine. You're good. Give it 24 to 36 hours, something like that. But if you're starting to have that feeling day after day, just rest. Don't worry about any plan. Don't worry about anything. Let your body totally be a bump in a log. Don't replace it with a long walk. Just replace it with a lot of food, a lot of chill. Some cleaning if you want. But you don't even have to do that. You can do my strategy, which is just to watch TV. This feeling for me had been coming on for like four or five days. And I've been pushing back against it. And finally on Sunday morning, it's like a thing this time. It's time for the unplanned rest day. But I'm coming off. This is the other thing too. I'm coming off, I would say, 300 unplanned rest days in my pregnancy and my whole heart situation. So I do feel like I've gotten a little bit better at taking them. But probably on the flip side, that makes you feel like you're playing catch up to a certain extent. And a missed day might be a missed opportunity to progress. So I think every athlete has like, you know, there's two flip sides to that coin because I think no one becomes a world-class athlete by resting, which is a hard part of the conversation. It's like, you have to do the work for the rest to lead to incredible places. But every athlete rest becomes a prerequisite. But it becomes this really difficult cycle. So I'm reading Cara Gauter's book right now, The Longest Race. I'm almost on it. It's amazing. But one of the things she talks about in the book is after her marathons, she would run the next day often. Wow. Yeah. Which to me, it points out like, OK, clearly somewhere along the way, the mix between hard work and rest got a little mixed up, whether that's by an early coach by Alberto Salazar, the abuser, or something like that. And similarly, we all have that thing. It's like, well, I hear these people say rest is what makes champions. And it does. But rest needs to be accompanied by pretty hard work. And so you coming off of the heart stuff and pregnancy, that's a lot to incorporate into your daily decisions. Well, this is a topical discussion. I was in the training logs this morning. And one of my athletes asked me how many unplanned rest days are too many. And I think what you're getting at is a great point that as a running society, we've talked more and more about rest day brags, which is amazing. Like those are the conversations that we need to have. But we also need big ass workout day brags. And it's pairing the combination of the two of those together and being fearless in that process. I think that's so helpful. So what do you say to that athlete in that situation? Is there any way to strike that balance? I mean, I think having one unplanned rest day per week is totally fine. I think once you start stacking more of those, you have to think about the fact is training too high to the point where the athlete's not compensating. Or does an athlete just need to get out the door when and kind of sort it through that stuff? Or mental health context? There's literally or protein. I can start just like listing off 800 different variables that I think about. But I think any more than one every one or two weeks. And you start thinking about maybe we should adjust something else. But that's on top of every week. Yes, exactly. Yeah, on the weekly rest day that we recommend to every athlete. And I think it points out that rest is awesome. Those empty spaces are where adaptation happens. And if you do not take a rest day right now, we strongly recommend you do. I think the accumulation of training in a weekly sense of numbers is not what makes an athlete a champion. When you zoom out over years, it's much more the consistency element. And even in that context, you can add one or two here or there responding to how the body feels or something like that. If it comes more than that, yeah, you should probably look to some other factors. Maybe you have like over cleaning syndrome when you're working too hard on your PhD, like you might be or something like that. I have a lot of over life syndrome going on right now. But do you know who needs rest days is Leo? Leo has been training. Our little guy is four months old. And he spends most of his days rocking. So we have various chairs. He's got a little car seat. He's got this bouncer chair. And he's figured out. He's actually pretty smart to figure out how to rock them. But he literally, it's a little creepy because you'll walk out of the room and he's just rocking himself all day long. This is how I have the maternity test. On that old show, Mari, they would say, you are not the father. I guess they never do that for mother because that's a little bit more direct. But as soon as he did that, I was like, OK, clearly Megan's kid because he's just rocking all day long, endless energy, which is not quite my vibes. My vibes are much more chill on the couch and watch TV. So I'm hoping we can strike a balance before he's able to walk and run around or otherwise our lives are going to be absolutely hectic coming up. Well, I feel like we are striking a balance because he loves doing this while watching Frozen. It's kind of like his favorite thing to do. But my parents saw this and they were like, we've been here before. We know where this is coming from. I'm a little worried, though. He's getting low energy availability. So he's also snacking right now on like purees and cereals and things like that. So as he's rocking, he'll like stop rocking long enough where I shove some puree in his face. Like we're combating red, dude. Yeah, on his four month appointment, the doctor did say, yeah, you know, he's not gaining a ton of weight though he's doing solid. He's a little shrimp. That's what we call him. Yeah, he's a little shrimp, which is frustrating because like we're trying to feed him as much as we possibly can. But she's just like, yeah, he was on the table at the doctor's office, absolutely flipping his shit, like great dancing on the doctor's table. And she's like, he's just burning a lot of calories. But unfortunately, we don't know how to make it up because formulas are all kind of similar calorie totals. And then the baby purees are weak saw shit. We have to give him like bananas or pears or sweet potatoes. Where is the pizza puree for four month olds? Someone get on that. We could probably make it. Yeah, we could. Yeah, I mean, I'm sure his stomach wouldn't love that. His little sensitive four month old stomach wouldn't be a great thing. But we should try. It should be our thing. Blend up some sausage and pepperoni. Yeah, yeah, but it's also hard too because it's kind of like running and feeling. It's really hard to rock and eat at the same time. So I feel like we're just preparing him for his future ultra running career where he can like run and eat complicated foods at the same time. I'm not good at that. Like, I'm not good at multitasking. He's eating, he's getting his GI training. Yeah. Really, really young, which is cool. It's okay. Quick update before we get onto all of our amazing topics because our listeners always ask, how are things going for you? How are you feeling? Clearly your athletics are going good. Where are you at in your, let's say PhD? The rest of my world is kind of like a fire burning and I'm sitting there on a bench giving a thumbs up. I'm like, we're good you guys. That's fine. Yes, I saw a meme like that on the internet and I was like, that beautifully describes me at the moment. No, so I'm defending my PhD coming up in almost a month. Yeah. Because it's a little bit like me to have a four month old baby and to schedule a PhD dissertation at the same time. Yeah. But I think we're going to do it. Well, I can't wait. So Leo and I are going to be there, I think. We're right. Are we allowed to into the? You're invited, yeah. Yeah, great. Yeah. So I'm just going to be there. I don't know, in my dream world, I get to be like ratatouille above your head or whatever the little rat that helps the guy cook. Just being like, Megan, make a joke. Make a dick joke now. Like, you don't need any help with the content. But I just want to make sure you keep incorporating the dick jokes for your PhD defense. I love it. Well, you know how, like, when you queue in on someone in the audience, like, there's always that enthusiastic person that just gives you that love and support and energy you need in the audience? I think it's going to be Leo. So we should bring his chair and he can just bounce my entire presentation. I'm going to look at him. And that's going to be the affirmation I need. Yeah, that's perfect. Actually, that's a recommendation to everyone. If you are ever in an audience, be the person that's like constantly nodding and smiling. One, it actually helps you retain information, I find, because you're actually paying attention so that you can give them the affirmations they need. But two, you are making someone's life. You're going to be their favorite person forever. Having taught classes and done a lot of presentations and speeches and stuff. That one person, like, I would give them a kidney, for sure. I'm pretty sure that's why I'm exhausted at the end of the day, because I do that in every single Zoom call. I'm nodding with so much information. My neck basically gets doms by the end of the day. So it's kind of my thing. But I'm excited, though, because, you know, I'm studying epidemiology, which is population health. And I've kind of twisted my dissertation. So my dissertation is called the more complete female athlete. Oh, cool. Physical health, mental health, and how we talk about it. And it's kind of fun, because female athlete health is like, I don't think anyone in epidemiology has ever looked at that. And it's kind of neat, because I think female athlete health is a lot of like sociology, epidemiology, medicine, exercise physiology. So many different things feeding in there. But it's kind of nice to be in a field of epidemiology and studying something no one really has. Well, I think it's the perfect use of epidemiology, right? These skills are the most important thing. And actually, I think it brings us to the next little topic, which is Cara Goucher's book, The Longest Race. Before we do that, actually, quick roadmap of what we're going to talk about, because I think this is relevant. First, this book recommendation. Then spring training tips, sure reviews, a big discussion of the Barkley marathons and training tips that might have relevance there. And finally, lots more. But on what you were saying about female athletes, like I think when reading Cara Goucher's book, The Longest Race, one of the things that jumps out to me is that there's just a complete misunderstanding of female athletes at every step of the way. Much like Lauren Fushman, book pointed out, but the difference with Cara's story is that it's so prominently involved abuse. Not just from Alberto Salazar, but also from the mental coach there, also from perhaps a doctor. It just becomes this terrible cycle where women are treated in a totally different way that not only affects their mental health, but also their physical health. And so the type of work you're doing with epidemiology is so freaking cool. And so I can't wait to be there. I am very bummed. Oh, thank you. Well, one of the reasons I brought it up actually is because I feel like female athletes are understudied, but I think you don't necessarily have to be in a perfect program to study them. So I think like if you're a researcher out there like and you're studying mental health or physical health, or you know, there's 18 different, 18,000 different types of PhD programs out there, I feel like you could incorporate female athletes into them. And so hopefully more researchers will do so in the future. Yeah, well, and you're gonna be leading the way I think. I can't wait to see what you do next because I think you're at this place now where a lot of people finish their PhD and they're like, okay, well, now I get to go into my career. But you've already kind of made your career. And you know, I've bragged about you on this podcast before and I'll say it again. Like you're the most brilliant person in the world. I think you're the best coach in the world. Oh, thank you. You've established all these things. But now you get to incorporate how you're gonna use this PhD in that world that you've already developed. So I'm popping a lot of popcorn to figure out what happens. Well, we're not quite sure how we're going to do that. So when I graduated med school, I was like, now what the fuck do I do with it now? And I kind of just kick the can down the road with another four years with my PhD. And so I'm trying to figure out, it's like, what exactly do I do, but we're working on it? Yeah, can you kick the can again? This is the big question. Yeah, exactly. Where do you kick the can now? Yeah, I'll just be kicking it until I'm 95. Well, yeah, I have lots of suggestions for you, but I don't know. I don't wanna be, I'm the little ratatouille rat on top of your head just encouraging you to make dick jokes in public. Perhaps you shouldn't listen to me. I might not be the best role model. But getting back to Cara's book, so we interviewed Cara on the spot podcast a couple weeks ago. She's amazing. I love Cara. We still actually, we need to follow up and have pizza with Cara. I'm sure she's being inundated with interviews, in requests and things like that. So maybe give her a few weeks, but you're listening to her book right now. I'm saving it. I saved the Lauren Fleischman book. I was saving for special runs and workouts. But what's your general impression of it? Oh gosh, I always understood the extent of Mikey Orgian Project and Alberta Salazar's evil. In a general sense. But hearing it in a specific way through her story, well first it just makes me think about her courage to put this out there. So much courage, yeah. And two, it makes me fucking furious. Not, I mean obviously, Adelberta Salazar. But also at all of the enablers at every step of the way, which includes people that were sitting idly by. But then also people on the internet, it gives the context of things like, let's run message boards and tweets and stuff like that. That now I'm like, oh my God, if you support evil, at what point do you become evil? And I think that the types of people and the things that they were saying about Cara throughout this process, it paints it in such a light that it really makes me disappointed in a broader sense of a lot of what we call the community in this world. And I think the next step needs to be, yes, the community is loving, but also the community needs to come with accountability for bad actors. I love that point. And I think to me, this is just coming from hearing the stories within the book. So I still haven't read the book yet. Well, it's quite true. And every time I get back from around, I'm like, Megan, this is what Cara was talking about. It's such a great book, but also it's horrifying. Well, I feel like I've read it from, I mean, the amount of discussion that we've had without me having read it yet is pretty wild. But I think for me, there almost these like there's systematic failures at so many different points in this story. Like starting with Nike, down to the Nike Oregon project, down to even small things, like, let's run message boards as you're talking about. And it's like every step of the way of that systematic failure just undercuts individuals. And like, how challenging that is. Can I tell you one story from the book that I hadn't told you yet? So to me, it's like a really cool moment because in Cara's contract, they had reduction causes. We've talked about these before in the context of pro athlete contracts, where if you get injured or you don't race or whatever for a certain period of time, they have the right to reduce your contract all the way down to zero. And Cara dealt with that a number of times, mainly around her pregnancy, which is horrifying. And most of those have been eliminated now due to her and Lauren and other people's work in that area in like Allison Felix. But there was one point where she got injured and she had a 100 day clause in her contract where if she didn't race for 120 days, it could be reduced to zero. And this is a huge decision for Cara. And so she's coming back from a stress fracture and she hops in a little 5K, a glow run, where it was all about glow sticks and stuff. And she wins that little 5K. And the results weren't put online because it wasn't the type of race that had results. So she had them put her name on the website. And then a few weeks later, sure enough, John Capriotti, one of the heads of Nike Track, emailed her and said, we're gonna reduce your contract because you didn't race. Because he thought her first race was jogging with Charlene Flanagan at the San Francisco half. And instead, she got to share the glow run website with them. And she kept over six figures of her contract that she would have lost otherwise. And I was like, fuck yes, and fuck you Nike. That is an amazing story. I've never heard that before. Yeah, it was amazing. And it was just very cool to see Cara reclaim her power at each step of the way. And I think this book is the ultimate example of that. And so, I'm not the person to talk about this, but a lot of people do have abuse in their history, especially a lot of women. And so wherever you're at with that, in this reflection, we wanna send you so much love because hearing Cara tell her story and hear how she was gaslit at each step of the way by other people saying, and she almost had convinced herself that they were right about the things they were saying about her. It's like, I can't imagine how difficult that is to deal with. And so sending love to all of you out there. It takes so much courage. One thing that I've seen, so we've coached a lot of athletes that have major traumatic events in their path. And that's just statistics. Like it's wild how many people out there have those sorts of situations. But I feel like sometimes when people read books like this, it's almost like they feel the burden to come out and share their story or to tell their journey, or to tell their journey even as it's happening. And I think sometimes my role's a coach is, no, no, no, you don't have to do that. Like it takes so much courage to do that. And it's amazing, but it's only one form of like working through trauma. And there's never that burden on someone to do that. But what Cara did is like so beautiful. And it takes major, major courage to us. And I think she had to work through it in therapy for many years before this book comes out in 2023. When a lot of the events of the book happened in the late 2000s, like in 2009 area. So yeah, big conclusion is, fuck you, outro to Shara's art. I always- Whoa, that was a, that's a strong conclusion. Well, especially because like, I don't know, you're the same way, right? Like we always try to view everyone with the ultimate amount of compassion for things we don't understand, the things that are going through. I've actually heard stories from an athlete. I don't know if I ever mentioned this to you who saw Alberto relatively recently. And Alberto tried to give tips, like helpful tips to his athlete. And so part of me always assumed that, well, maybe this was just him, his urge to help gone too far. You know, trying to project some sort of kindness onto him. And then to hear Cara's story in this type of vivid detail, mixed with all the other, the ProPublica thing and all that to come out, it's like, actually that's probably all just like manipulative, grooming bullshit in some, you know, in some way or form that I'm not aware of. And so it's just really scary how predators are out there and can hide it. And it's, to me it was, this book is amazing. And even if you're not into the exact story of it, I think you should read it to gain a lot of understanding of how these issues unfold. Where do you stand on the concept of forgiveness? So obviously like, you know, I think there could be underlying personality traits, lots of different things that are feeding into the situation and certainly Alberto's background. But I think there's a time and a place for forgiveness. Like especially when you think about, I mean, I think forgiveness is entrenched in so many different like spiritual underpinnings and Buddhism and life philosophies. But I also think there's a time in the place where you're just like fuck that, that situation sucks. Where do you stand on that? Well, I think you need to accept your guilt and role in bad things before you can be forgiven, right? Like, Kara for her sake is like, you know, she's clearly evolved past some of the, like, or she's incorporated the trauma into her worldview and she loves herself. Yeah, yeah. That's awesome. So that is a form of forgiveness of maybe herself of the situations and things like that. But any individual like Alberto Zaozar who sexually abused athletes, and I'm sure that there are other stories we haven't heard based on this, it's like you, the very first step needs to be accepting that you were evil, you know, and you did evil things, even if you're not accepting your evil. Yeah, lots of mixed feelings about the book. I love it. It's been great for my runs, but also it makes me really sad. But also I can't wait to tell Leo about the story of Kara and hope that she, that in her, he can see the type of man and not just man, but person that he wants to become. Like, has nothing to do with gender. Like, she models so much of what I admire in the world and I want to be like her too, Kara rocks. I totally agree, that's beautiful. Okay, let's get on to some other topics. Actually, first, can I put you on the spot before we're gone? Oh, oh, oh. We did all my life updates and we were just gonna like skip over years. Well, I feel like we're both, we're like both the type of people that would love to stand in a school play and be the rock on stage. So I feel like we're both like skip over, skip over our life updates, but I'm gonna put you on the spot. You're training for something big, what is it? Oh, you're gonna say. We have to say what is it, could you say the distance? Oh, I think if I say the distance now, people will probably guess. Okay, well, it's a distance over 50K. Okay, I guess I'll just say it. So we... Oh, look at you. We kind of formally came to the decision right before the podcast this morning based on some conversations I was having, but I'm gonna do the Kainins Hunter K up here at Golden Ticket Race. Oh, heck yes. I'm so excited. Yeah, I felt great, I'm pumped. You've gotten me in an amazing place athletically. I'm really ready to go. It's gonna get relevant to some of the training tips we have coming up and in some of the things that I've learned personally and with athletes. So yeah, I'm gonna shoot my shot, put it out there. In fact, actually what I was thinking today on the end of my run. So I don't know about you guys, but whenever I am running, I get into a heightened emotional state. Where... Oh, I did too. I hear Kara's book and when she was talking about her dad who tragically passed away at the start of the book, I was freaking crying on the Route 36 here in Boulder while running, and it wasn't necessarily something that would happen when I wasn't running. But today, near the end of my run, just doing like a 14-mileer, I was thinking of my handheld during the race and that when I look down at my handheld on the inside of my hand, I'm gonna have the letter C written. So where my forefinger and thumb connect for C is for courage from Warren Fleischman's book. Oh, that's so crazy. And then I got chills and I started running faster and I felt great. So yeah, no, I'm just excited to shoot a shot. I'm so proud of you. I mean, this is not something that you typically do. Is there something that kind of pushed you in this direction? Well, I think a couple things. One, I have realized I need to get over the fear of racing swap professional male athletes or I'm never gonna race and that they want me to race. Oh, yeah. So I've gotten to talk to everybody. So that's been helpful. And then two, I wanna model for Leo, what it means to put yourself out there. And I think I'm gonna succeed because I believe, hit that belief sign, but I also know that realistically, the chances of failure are very, very, very high, much higher than in a lot of the things that I do. So I wanna model that for him as he gets older and the time to start is now when he's pre-verbal. I love that. Well, I think for both of us too, we coach these longer distances and we coach multi-day events, we coach getting into Barclays. Yeah. Coach athletes at Berkeley, Berkeley Marathon. But I think it's really helpful to go through these personal journeys yourself too. So I think it's for us, it's also a science experiment to just keep learning and growing. I mean, I feel like we've really figured out this distance quite well, but there's always room to grow. And so that's part of it too. Figured out the training. I know I'm gonna be ready physically in the start line. I think the one place that gets a little complicated is how it's gonna work mentally for someone like me who's never been necessarily motivated by the need to excel. That's not been what I've been like since I've been a kid. Like I really am engaged in the process. And these events change that calculus a little bit. So I'm really excited. I'm gonna be looking down at that big old C, be like, yes, I can do it, I got courage. Are you gonna put Leo's initials underneath the C or something like this? When you said you were gonna write something, I was like, oh, it's gonna be my initials. And you were like a C. Yeah. No, I don't wanna, that's the thing. Like I don't wanna make it so that this has more meaning about anything other than me. I know that sounds really weird, but like I get so caught up in what other people think in terms of their happiness, right? The reason I haven't done any races is because I'm like, well, I don't wanna make someone unhappy that I might race and I might take some opportunity away from them if I have a great day. You might kick their ass. No. But even the idea of that, the idea that an athlete might think that my incentives are different than their breaks my heart. And similarly, like out there, I don't wanna be thinking, Megan is proud of me if I do well. Like I know I'm gonna get to eight stations and you're gonna be shoveling, you know, precision nutrition or whatever down my throat and you're gonna be proud of me no matter what. So like, yeah, you're always running with me. I don't need to write your initials everywhere. Oh, that means a ton. Well, we're sitting next to Gatorade protein bars and you started scheming, which they literally taste like candy and like a forestill, just shove one of those in my mouth. Megan, if I am not deep-throwing a Gatorade endurance bar, you are not doing your goddamn job. Okay, let's move on to some spring training. So the reason that this is relevant, I think is because we often talk about background training in the context of the podcast, like how you train for long-term growth. But that kind of leaves off the idea of specific training is immensely important and has roles in how the body adapts that cannot be ignored. So this is actually, it's great that you ask me about racing because we can talk a little bit about the context of how my training has had to shift from having the best running economy of my life, you know, once I started considering doing this type of race to how I've had to shift training to actually be ready to race on these specific trails that are gonna be really hard. And the framework in which you've done this, to me, is really impressive. So you've, as you said, you are fit. You are one of, like, actually, I think you're probably the fittest you've ever been in life right now. Yeah, that's it. And on top of that overall running economy, now you're starting to work in a metric crap ton of vertices. So you're going out there and you're just trying to find the most that you can and bolder as a way to like break down and prepare your muscles. So repetitive breakdown effects, your body starts to break down less and less to the downhill centric muscle contractions. And that's basically your strategy going in. And I think it's a good one. Well, so it's more of a short term thing, but like I have this big problem for myself and I think most athletes do as well. And it's one of the biggest complications of churning or any race that has more climbing than you're used to is when you first start to introduce these stresses, the eccentric muscle contractions can rip you to fucking shreds. So, you know, I started this a number of weeks ago and even last week, I did a run with 3,000 feet of vert. We're still not that much. Yeah, I mean, it was in a very short distance. I mean, for context, Barclay Marathon has 60,000 feet of vertices. And Kenyans has, you know, 16,000 or whatever. And I was so comically sore for three or four days. In those types of cycles, repeat, repeat, repeat until they go away. And if you don't train that before you get to the start line, you're going to be moderately fucked, which is something that a lot of athletes from like low line places, like Farda, might experience in spades and so I'd be recommending things like training camps and things to prepare for downhills. So as you come to spring, start to think about vert a little bit more. You need to go through these soreness cycles now so that you're not trying to scramble when you do get closer to races. And preparing your body for that is so freaking key. And I think spring is relevant here because our trails have been closed this winter. So it's really hard to get this level of vert unless you're going out and hammering. We have some roads like Gold Hill or Magnolia Road, but they still aren't, they don't have a ton of vertices. Yeah, they're not that steep. Yeah, yeah. So it's still important to go through, like, so as you're building into spring, it's really important to go through these eccentric muscle contraction sessions where you're just out there pounding vert. But it's kind of a nice progression actually because over winter you're getting fit, you're getting fast and then layering just a few specific vert sessions and your body's primed. Yeah, my general rule is like two a week as you're training specifically. But it can be just one and we're gonna talk in a second, probably about some debates that can be even fewer. So very quickly, a 2020 review in sports medicine was on downhill running. And a quote from that is that eccentric muscle contractions are often a product of negative work when the force applied to the muscle exceeds the strength of the muscle. I think this equation to me is actually fascinating because they're talking about the strength of the muscle being a part of the equation. And I think it's a point as to why troiners should be strong is because you got to sustain these muscle contractions. Otherwise, the force is just gonna pile up on your muscles. But I think there is this kind of delicate balance because if you're thinking about training to optimize, you're like six rep squat max, you're also building your fast-twitch muscle fibers and those fatigue and release a lot of muscle damage. So I think there's this nice delicate line between being strong to sustain the demands of a trail running, but not working your fast-twitch muscle fibers, not getting strong for the point of needlessly getting strong because you're just gonna have so much breakdown. Yeah, such a good point. It's a really complicated area of science, right? Because they don't know exactly what even contributes to this type of delayed onset soreness and the muscle weakening that comes with it even before the soreness starts. So when you say strength, it's like a six rep max has nothing to do with the type of eccentric muscle contractions we're talking about. So like this weekend, yesterday, I ran down a 25% grade for a mile. It's like insanely steep, maybe a little bit excessive. And as I was doing it, it's like your feet are like doo doo doo doo doo doo doo. And each one of those steps is in product of negative work. And if you're trying to think that six rep max really matter, they don't, you know? And so some of our strength work is designed for that. But at the same time, I think the biggest element of strength that's important to think about is more getting enough food, being resilient because this type of training in that type of negative work can also lead to injuries, bones breaking. You see a lot of femoral stress fractures, some people that incorporate this and making sure your strength is kind of an all body thing, more of a way of life than maybe a specific practice even. Do you, are you ever out there running downhill and you get frustrated by the freeze negative work? I'm like, I'm doing the positive work. This is taking a lot of energy. I often find myself laughing. So like as I'm going down this thing, and I'm just like, this is fucking ridiculous. Jerome and I were on a long run the other week and we had a moment, it's like a 27 hours very far. And it was just like, I was just saying to Jerome, this is crazy. It's crazy that we're doing this and we're spending our lives because we have both, you know, we've done a lot of life outside of running. I'm like, this is how we dedicate ourselves. And we both laughed and had the best time with it. But that is no, it's never more true than when I'm running down a steep hill. It is so blatantly obvious that I'm like, I'm moderately risking my life right now and I'm gonna be sore for three days. This is intense. Silly is usually the first word that comes to mind. But I also appreciate what she said there too about the frequent fast footsteps because if you're thinking about this specific equation, so if you're slowing down your cadence on downhills, you're really increasing the amount of force that goes through each step. And there's been studies out there that have actually seen higher CK values. So higher muscle breakdown values associated with athletes that have lower cadences. So I think really think about like very fast turnover on downhills helps a ton. Also helps burn ankle spreins too. Yeah, I mean, that's my main recommendation as a form of things, quick feet, quick feet and relax. Like actually a place that's helpful. You can watch a video of Killian going downhill if you want. Oh, it's magical. Sometimes I watch that and I'm like, what am I doing with my life? Yeah. You look so good and I look like shit. You're more like, why did I marry David? When there's people like Killian out there from Spain, living in Norway. No, but the other place I actually like to watch is a dog run downhill, like Addy Dog. Because it's the same type of thing. It's quick feet, but also relaxed. So you're very relaxed as you hit the ground. You're trying to absorb as little force as possible and via that negative work. Because if you resist it, it's more. So quick feet are ideal, especially on technical trails. And the reason that's important is because downhills are not just difficult in terms of speed. They're also difficult in terms of the breakdown they can do to your body. So 2016 review in the European Journal of Applied Physiology had this quote, downhill running induces severe lower limb tissue damage. Indirectly evidenced by massive increases in plasma creatine kinase slash myoglobin concentration of or inflammatory markers. So what that means is essentially that your muscles are begging down. Myoglobin is a protein in muscle fibers. This is means everything. Your blood becomes a toxic waste dump. It becomes a shit stew. Yeah, it's so bad. And we've seen this in practice a lot. I know that my CK right now, if we measure it, would be very, very scarily high from the types of runs I've had to do recently. But the point is if you don't do this now, you're gonna face this when you start to do these runs or this erase. And if that happens, like not only is your performance gonna suffer, it could be risky for things like RAB though. So I always give athletes weekends sometimes where I call them just say no to RAB though, which means that we're getting a lot of over two days. And so you can prevent some of these processes from unfolding, but you do need to do it periodically to make that happen. And there's been more and more studies coming in and looking at the repetitive bowel effect of running downhill. So we've known for a long time that subsequent, so like once you run downhill once and then do subsequent downhill sessions, your CK or your muscle breakdown attenuates. So it becomes less and less and less as you start training for the downhill. There was a cool study actually that came out in 2022 in the European Journal of Sports Science and they had athletes do two by 30 minute downhill sessions. And what they found was that their biomechanics and neuromuscular output were also getting better on their repetitive bowel effect. So it's kind of nice because we're stacking, athletes muscles are breaking down less, but they're also generating more power and having better biomechanical form as well with their repetitive bowel effect. And what's super weird about that study, those sessions were three weeks apart. And that's a long time. That's a really long time. And it backs up some of the research that finds you don't need to do a ton of these stimuli to have them get incorporated into your physiology. I do think that that has been misread in some places where they try, there's certain places, especially in the coaching and physiology worlds, where people are like, okay, if it's not backed up by a study, we're not gonna do it in the real world. And some people say they're- I like to race those athletes. Yeah, coaches who coach those type of athletes and I'm like, I'll race them on the study. Exactly, and the point about the repeated bowel effect is the reason that studies don't measure that a little bit more density is necessary is because they're not having athletes do that type of testing. Because it's impossible. The real world is not a lab. But what this does show is you don't need a ton of it. So if you live in a flat place, you can do it every couple of weeks or do like a camp every six weeks or something. For athletes that have options to work as you're starting to think about vert-heavy races, I kind of like two stimuli a week that might break you down a little bit, but not a ton. And eventually they won't break you down at all. It's just this transition period, the shoulder season, when you might start getting to trails where you need to think about it a little bit more. And then as you approach big races, maybe think about it a lot in the six weeks before. Like that's kind of the specific window, six to eight weeks. When even if you're doing Hard Rock 100, I just want a Hard Rock 100 athlete to be fast as fuck eight weeks before. And then we start getting specific. And we'll get into that a little bit as we talk about the barcling or Ithans. I actually I was gonna ask you that exact point. Yes, what is the runway time? So six weeks makes a ton of sense. What is so another element that you're thinking about for canyons is heat as well. This is something that I think as we head into spring, a lot of athletes are thinking about as well. There's a similar process of where it's nice to have like a little bit of like minimal dose exposure to heat throughout the winter. But then as you get closer to race, to make it more specific, what is the general like runway time that you recommend for heat training for athletes? So you guess that Megan, I've convinced myself, I'm just a heat monster now. It's been like fucking freezing here and colder. But my sweat rate feels like it's just gone down. I don't know what's happening, but I'm gonna take it. At 50 degrees you come back and you're like, I'm so ready for the heat. My sweat gland hit the believe sign. Yeah, no, I think that five weeks is the general amount that I like to focus on five or six. And the reason is because the heat acclimation that happens, that's usually just a week or two. It happens way faster than people think, but there are these studies that have come out on cross country skiers that find that five weeks or so is how long it takes for the hemoglobin response to also happen. So which means that as your plasma volume goes up, your hematocrit goes down, hematocrit goes back up, create red blood cells, you get more heebahove. And that generally is thought to take four to six weeks. So four weeks minimum, six weeks maximum of more dense heat training is kind of what I think about. And now's a great time to think about that for spring because I've heard athletes recently tell me that 50 degrees has felt like they're burning up. So you should probably stem that tide before it gets hot. Just do a few sauna sessions. You don't have to do a ton, just do a little. That's one of the challenges of transitioning from winter to spring is that first hot day and you're like, I must drink all of the water. I feel so hot right now. So I totally agree. Well, you've never dealt with it like I have. Before I did like more consistent heat training year round, I remember doing runs with you where you were just absolutely unfazed because that's you. You're not faced. And I would be like going up a hill at mile eight and my hurry would hit 175, it would like above lactate threshold. And I'd just be like, literally Megan, get the ambulance, don't run anymore. And that was probably 60 or 70 degrees. So I'm very happy I'm doing it now. I'm so happy for you. The next one is strength work that is quick and portable. So in winter, you might have done pretty good strength. I find that athletes often have that fall by the wayside as things come up. Read me. Yes. Yes. So I mean, when you have a lot of life, it's just challenging. Yeah. So your life gets in the way, is what you're saying? My life gets in the way. It's like, you know, I come back, I got five minutes after my run to hop on a Zoom call, I got a shower, I got to eat. There's just like, strength training for me. I have to like, like, viciously push back against it or also it falls by the way. You've got to clean extremely loudly. You need to bang every pot and pan in the house. You need to stuff that Gatorade endurance bar down my throat. No, so we're going to have some more on this soon, but to let you know, the ultra legs routine that we're going to release is coming out shortly within the next week or two. It has some cool components that are new, some old components. Both have been tested by some pro athletes to be coach with accelerated recent races. I'm so excited for people to see this. I think it's going to be game changing for them, especially if they fatigue a little bit in longer events. I think one of the big additions on here, so our earlier iterations of mountain and speed legs didn't have as much hamstring work. Definitely. And I think the support of ignored leg curls for athletes that have intact hamstrings definitely don't do these if you, especially ease into them if you have any sort of hamstring issues. But I think that would be really game changing. Are you going to film this? So in the past, our mountain and speed leg YouTube videos are like done in our janky backyard. There's like grass patches everywhere. You're on our deck. Are you going to film it in a nicer way? Megan, we are stepping the fuck up this year. I've got a wireless mic ready to go. Did you really? Yeah. Just one of those wireless little mics that look like a little vibrator. You just attach to something? Yeah, it's going to be, we're going to change the game here. Kind of I'm thinking that we're going to move into videos at one point. This is new to me, but I like it. Well, as you finish your PhD, you're going to have more time to do creative endeavors. And I'm like, now's the time to create some good YouTube content. So I said, all your prior YouTube content is like your phone propped up on something and bring an object outside for your phone. There's no microphone. And it has like 100,000 views. And I'm like, what the fuck is this guy's problem? But what is wrong with their backyard? Yeah, no, I'm excited. I think for an update, my hamstrings now, you've probably heard how weak they used to be. They are so strong. It's one of the reasons that I was confident to officially commit to the Canyons 100K because I'm like, what used to be a weakness for me is now a strength. I feel them engage when I go uphill at the end of long runs. And I'm just like feeling awesome. It's awesome. I mean, I feel like, and you did that within two weeks, I would say, of doing and working into the Nordic hamstring curls. You progress into that. Yeah. One of my problems is that I'm very susceptible to the placebo effect. One of my benefits is that I'm very susceptible to the placebo effect. So when I think something works, I will commit to it so hard that nothing will ever get in the way. I will wake up at midnight when Leo does to do it if I have to. It's actually a conflict in our relationship because you like find these patterns and then you like try to apply them to me. So like every time I do well after an ice bath, you're like, tell me to ice bath for a whole week. I'm like, stop it. I want to ice bath on my own volition. I just walk around Meghan with like an ice sponge at all times. I'm just like, you sure you don't want this right now? This doesn't turn you on. Your cells are so excited about this. Okay. And then the final thing on transitioning out of winter is thinking about effort and not pace. We always want athletes to do this. And always we have people email the podcast being like asking about pace metrics or power metrics or whatever. And it's like that is not how cellular level physiology works. When we talk about lactate or anything like that, it is all based on your effort, not on the actual output you're doing, though the output does have some air bars within there. So try to get yourself away from that, especially as we start moving to more trails, away from roads, onto hilly runs, like pace is not what dictates progress. And I think there's also a psychology component of this here too, because I think the focus on effort as opposed to peace, lens athletes just not to judge. And also to go to those different surfaces and to mix it up and try new things. And I think all of those stimuli are great for adaptation at the same time. Yeah, and also I was just like, we talk all the time about zone one training or whatever and doing some zone two and like, though more you can not worry about pace, the more you'll have good intensity distributions. Because as soon as you start worrying about that, yes, your easy runs might get a little faster at times or you might feel bad about a slow, easy run. When if your normal, easy pace is 830, I promise you 10 minute pace was great too. So it's 1030 pace, like it's all fine. So it's 14 minute pace. Yeah, exactly. But same thing goes for the lactate controlled intervals we talk about. If you're worried about pace when you're doing mile intervals, you're guaranteed gonna do those mile intervals too hard. And when 2019 study and the Journal of Strength Conditioning Research actually found that long intervals that aren't intensity controlled where you're actually going too hard are associated with less growth than anything else that an athlete can do. So it's really important. Whenever I'm heading into a workout and I have that like workout and nervous energy anxiety, I call myself with that study. I'm like, it's okay, Megan, just channel smooth. Just get out there and do your thing. Smooth workouts, fast strides, you will get as fast as you need to, as long as you do like once every four to six weeks, something really, really, really hard. But there's a great paper that just came out. And I love papers that confirm our biases. It's really nice. It's so good. It's so great. Basically researchers, if you're out there, confirm our biases, please. Yeah. Because we'll mention your study on our podcast. It's delightful. Actually, they're probably a little worried about that. They're like, what are they gonna say about the study? What kind of jokes are they gonna use and work in there? But there's a 2023 study and this was in the International Journal of Sports Physiology and Performance. And actually as a disclaimer, I couldn't access, this is like one of the rare articles I couldn't access the full manuscript on. Yeah, what do you think happened? What happened? I don't know. I just looked at it to our library. I did put a request in, so it's coming. Yeah, okay, it's coming. Yes. We're gonna talk about it before. Thankfully, the abstract was close enough. I was like, okay, we get enough from this that it confirms our biases were good to go. We get the picture on the abstract. But basically, so they took 11 male cyclists and they had these cyclists complete four workouts. And these workouts were done in random order. And then they immediately followed the colleagues workouts by a 3K time trial. And what they found was they had training sessions be quantified through seven different training load metrics. So four used heart rate as input, two used power output, and one used the reading of perceived exertion. And drum roll, please. Dun dun dun dun. Perceived exertion actually was the one that tracked athletes effort over time. Yeah, so basically the perceived exertion correlated with performance decrements on the 3K time trial done after the workout sessions that they had done in random orders. Whereas none of the other variables did. So even if you got a really high stress score or whatever on a workout, it didn't then correlate with how you performed after, which the authors used to approximate fatigue and training stress from the workout. So what it points out is that perceived exertion is the name of the game. We have talked a lot recently about heart rate. And even with heart rate, we are not saying that this is what determines how your body is working. We're saying use it to calibrate your perceived exertion so you know that it's measuring the right thing. You can use it as spot checks. You can use it once every three weeks or once every three months. But it gives you some sense of am I in the right general vicinity? But I think what this study points out is sometimes numbers that seem exact are actually more like superstition where it's like, okay, this number is a number. It has significant figures. So I'm going to lean on this. When in reality, the much more wishy-washy artistic, how do I feel question, incorporates a lot more of the scientific variables about how the body adapts and experiences stress. And I think one of the big challenges of actually executing workouts in adaptation is when those numbers, which sometimes can be arbitrary, actually feed into the workout and impact psychology. So I don't know if you've ever trained with heart rate on an effort and you find that your heart rate's not getting as high as it should be. And for me, sometimes I start judging. I'm like, why do I feel like death at 170 heart rate? There should be what like 185 heart rate feels for me. And I feel like that those metrics can unfairly cue back into the workout and lead to challenges and adaptation or workout structure or any number of things. Yeah, which is why even as we talk this much about heart rate, we never want you to use heart rate on workouts. Like maybe to get a general sense of ultra pacing, it helps. Because if you know that in ultra pacing, we've generally found that athletes should not exceed like 60% to the top of zone three. So if you've ever emailed us for questions about your lactate threshold, I can help you determine what that is. Like even on not pills. But unless you're using it for that context, it should basically just be, this is what my easy is. This is what my really hard is and then look at the numbers after to make sure your perceived exertion is locked in. I love it. It's also comforting too that you don't have to hit these particular things. And if you're perceived exertion, oftentimes in my perceived exertion, I can nail what heart rate I'm at just by, you know, spot checks. Yeah, well, just because you've calibrated over time. Yep. Okay, on to some fun topics. We're gonna do five-ish things. We might skip one or two. We'll see. The first one is a shoe review update. I'm so excited. We haven't done a review in a long time. Yeah, people love our shoe reviews. So as always, no, we are not biomechanics experts. We are not shoe experts, but we have a very specific set of skills, like Liam Neeson and Taken, to judge shoes mercilessly. It's an important disclaimer. Sometimes when we come down on products really harsh and in reviews, I don't sleep that night. I'm like, what if this random company is gonna feel really traumatized that we had these thoughts about their product? Well, after talking about Cara Gauter's book, we can insult Nike a lot. So maybe we reserve our insults for Nike. Yeah, well, I always feel bad about it, but we will give you honest reviews. That's what we're here for. Yeah, and we'll always be 100% honest. Okay, first one I wanted to give a shout out to is yesterday on my run that had a ton of vert. I broke out the Hoka Mafate Speed 4s. For some reason, I always was skeptical about the Mafates. Why? You look at them and I look kinda looks like a clown. They do look like clown shoes for the first one I was gonna use. The coloring maybe on them. Yeah, I mean, literally they look like they're straight out of a circus. Well, I think that the problem is, is they look better on me than they do on you, because your foot is bigger, so like the colors accentuate or the bigness of the shoe accentuates. I don't know, I mean, they look relatively normal. Yeah, maybe I'm biased. I don't know, it kinda looks like I put like an amateur kayak on my foot when I first wore them. But when I first put them on in the running shoe store, I was like, whoa, that shoe feels totally different than I expected. It feels very similar to the old Evo Speedgoat. And so I took it out on this run. First thing I noticed, it was quite soft on football, which I like, especially in the forefoot. And then it performed fantastically on downhills. And by the end of the run, I wasn't beat up at all. So this is definitely gonna be the shoe I wear for canyons, unless I change my mind. But I think athletes should try it. So the tecton for me is a great shoe for short distances. It's really firm. I doubt it's gonna get me through 100K. The mafate might not either. Just knowing my body. But I'm really confident in the shoe now, and I'm recommending it to athletes that hadn't quite found that Goldie-Gok shoe for races that are marathon and above. I think it's good for the longer distances. I put it on and I don't feel totally inspired by the pop. I don't feel like I'm ready to set some CRs on short hill climbs. Did you see my crowns yesterday, Megan? I did see your crowns. The listeners need to know, I am posing right now, like that Jose Cuervo or whoever that guy that puts his leg up while he's shilling alcohol. Did you see my crowns? I saw your crowns, but they were a 45 minute crown. That's a long time of your own uphill. I like it when you call me Big Papa, because I pop the shit out of that run. Okay, next shoe, so recommend that one. Nike's a gama. Which I have been running in recently. Yeah, I like them a lot. So they have a lot of pop. Talk about pop. I feel like the foam, the PBAC's foam on these, it's got a lot of foam. So essentially, it feels ready to run fast. A few inch layer of ZoomX foam, the very fast foam that's in the vapor flies or whatever, just doesn't have a carbon plate. That being said, they are ankle wrecking balls. So this might just be me, again, this is a disclaimer here, but I have, so postpartum, I went three months without spreading my ankle, which felt like a miracle because when you're breastfeeding, you have really high joint laxity. So my ankles have felt pretty lax. But putting the issues on, I have sprained my ankles like 12 times. So TBD, that might just be a personal thing, but I have had some athletes. I don't know if it's the stack height or the outsole that impacts the ankle spreading or a combination of both, but if you're prone to ankle sprains and you find yourself, spraining your ankle in these, perhaps switch to a different shoe. Yeah, and they're a lot of cushion. I mean, I wore them while you were giving birth, actually. That's 60 hour ultra. And obviously, I was dealing with a lot of stress at that time, but I noticed when I switched back into other shoes after 60 hours, they felt like I was wearing rock hard plates on my feet because I got so used to that glorious cushion. So if you like cushion, consider them, but also pay attention to Megan's thing. And now what I would say is you haven't twisted your ankle and then when you've been taped on your ankles, right? Yes, yeah, correct. So that's something too. As we approach spraying, consider taping your ankles. We have videos online about that. Maybe we should update that even, but it can be very beneficial, especially if you have a tendency to do it, whether that's because you just gave birth to a baby or maybe you have not done your strength work recently. I'm surprised you didn't twist your ankle when you were almost passed out when I was giving birth. It's taking you. They're gonna a lot happen to my body, but a lot more happened to yours. Next up is the Nike Pegasus Trail 4. If you never tried it, this is a total remake of the Pegasus Trail. They've totally revamped this one, yeah. It's a much lower profile shoe now. And you tried it, how do you like it? I did, I liked it. I think it might be actually shockingly a little bit low profile for me. Like I don't think I'd be comfortable wearing it and, you know, race is over a 50K, but I did like it. I'm a big, the Nike Pegasus Road shoe is one of the all-time best shoes. And I think they did a pretty good job iterating this to a trail show. And for context, Drew wore it for our 27-mileer. So if Drew Holman wears a shoe, it's kind of like Michael Jordan wearing a shoe and I consider it. Yeah, well Drew is so chill, I'm pretty sure he could wear sandals and still hang with you on a 27-mileer long run, so. That's true. I did see him wear a pair of their Ultra Flies, so like the really fancy plated shoe that Nike's coming out with this year. They probably had 800 miles on them. I never saw a shoe that was so beat up. He never once mentioned it. Like for me, who's like a shoe press, I look at that and I'm like, no, it makes me like vomit. It makes me want to jump out of my skin. I need to replace my shoes so much more often than that. Drew is so chill. So chill. Next up, this is a major recommendation, is the Sockney and Dorphin Speed 3. The Speed 2's I had tried initially, and I got a calf injury with them almost right away. And we've seen a lot of data in athletes reflecting calf injuries in the earlier versions. And even like weird posterior tib injuries, but the Speed 3 is amazing. I actually, I don't know, Nike Pegasus on the road versus the Dorphin Speed 3's. I mean, I don't have enough data, but like my gut, my gloins say Speed 3. I have loved running in the Speed 3 more than any shoe I've ever worn. That's a lot to say. I put them on and I'm like, I'm ready to run fast. They do have a nylon plate. So we talked about last week on the podcast, some of the different biomechanics behind having carbon plates or nylon plates may make you a little bit more prone to bone stress injuries. It's hard to say. It's also hard to take carbon plates. It's also a pretty light shoe. I've probably made them to nylon plates, yeah. There might not be enough support for some athletes. Though I do think it encourages some of the lightness on our feet that we've mentioned. So this is a follow up. We mentioned that Megan really liked these shoes. I have since transitioned into them. And if you've seen my training on Strava recently when I've done road runs. You're sending it. And my running economy's really good. I think part of it is that this shoe is just encouraged good form over time. For some reason, it works for me. Really like it. I also love it as a treadmill shoe. So you could even get it. And if you don't like it for outside, use it as your treadmill shoe where you have a little bit more cushion. I think it's a great shoe to use two to four days per week. And then have some other shoes in the lineup that might be a little bit beefier for long runs. Or perhaps just getting out of that nylon plate every day. So endorphin speed three plus some shoes made for clams. Yeah. Next up is the Salkany Endorphin Edge. We have both not run in it. So this is very quick. But I did try it on in the running shoe store. And it did not work for me in the running shoe store, which is kind of like a crazy thing to say. But I can usually tell right away. They didn't nearly feel as comfortable, like underfoot as I expected. Were they more firm? Yeah, they just didn't feel like, I didn't feel the Duende. My loins were unexcited. So try them out. This is the carbon-plated shoe from Salkany. But I do think Salkany is coming out with new shoes that were worn by some elite athletes recently that are apparently amazing for trails. So pay attention there where they kind of got some of the vibes of the speed three and put them on trails. I can't wait for that. Well, I saw the specs of the Edge and my loins got excited. I mean, I feel like I'm gonna like them actually. I also like the fact that the colorway is pink for men. Yeah. And I appreciate that. Yeah, it's really out there. Yeah. I like it. And then that's basically all we tried. The Salkany Exodus Ultra Megan. Great shoe. I love that shoe. I feel like I could run downhill way faster in this shoe than any of the other recent, like, when I run in the Exagamas downhill, I'm always kind of like, I feel like I'm ice skating right now. Whereas put on the Exodus Ultra and I feel ready to tackle technical downhill. Megan's loved it. She's done a ton of miles in it. So I think between like the Mafate speed, the Exodus Ultra, one of those two shoes will work for a lot of people. And then if you don't like that, you can try something like the Ultra Mont Blanc, which I got a box at the Running Shoes store and was getting ready to put them on because they look great. They look exactly like the shoe I'd want. And Megan was like, David, no zero drop. You know Ultra is committed to the bit. You're not committed to that bit. So unless you're gonna totally switch, don't do it. I swept in and I was like, no, no, no. Yeah. Amy Winehouse. Amy Winehouse. In the Running Shoes store. In the Running Shoes store. Yeah, I mean, I've had a lot of athletes. I mean, shoes are totally a personal preference thing. I've had a lot of athletes like Ultra's, but I have seen more calf and Achilles injuries in Ultra's than the endorphin speed too is combined. But to contrast that, I've coached some athletes who switch into Ultra's and the one athlete I'm thinking specifically who's in Utah right now, who listens, so we love you out there. And it is totally revamped his running career. Like he feels so much better than he's ever felt before some of his neuroma issues have grown down. Essentially like be open to new shoes working for you, but just make sure you're not totally changing between ideas and shoes. Where it's like, on one side, you're wearing like a total clown shoe and then the other side, you're wearing like zero profile, zero drop, nothing shoes. Because like some of that is fine for short runs, but if you're doing like long big stressful runs where you could get injured becomes a problem. Well, Ultra does make some zero drop clown shoes. Yeah. It's a little bit strange to me actually when you have, when you combine zero drop with really high cushioning and stock height, it's confusing to me. Yeah, but I think for some people, it seems to have really worked for them. Yeah. I think it gets back to different things, work for everybody. Whatever floats your boat. Whatever gets your loins, a buzz in. Okay, next thing up, very quick. We mentioned briefly that Megan was taking an entire vitamin D dropper. Actually not taking, I almost took. Okay, almost took. I had one sip and I was like, oh my gosh, and I spat it out over the sink. Yeah. Yeah, so what we have learned is that, I was thinking Megan did the spit version. Other people did the swallow version. And we had numerous listeners write in to say they were taking the entire vitamin D dropper of athletic greens multiple times before our warning on the podcast. I totally understand. So the dropper is labeled out in milliliters and almost every other dropper I use, the serving size is one milliliter. Like Leo has been having, there's droppers for like, pediatric toluenol and his vitamin and they're all one milliliter. So it's a little mind-boggling that it's only one drop of this big dropper. But yeah, don't do it. Yeah, and all vitamin D is just a single drop, just for the context of the listeners. So no matter what you're taking it. So- Well actually, whenever you take, read the instructions very carefully. It's a good general. But on that note, we wanna do quick athletic greens promo, athleticgreens.com slash swap SWAP SWAP SWAP. And I think this is the best listener email we've ever gotten. So I wanna read this one. And I think you're probably gonna get it if you haven't already. I am an 80 plus year old runner slash grandmother who has followed your journey since your book was first published. I've heard your podcast that discuss bone density, usually with younger listeners. I've regularly scheduled scans every two to three years. This year, my doctor called me with my results and wanted to know what I have been doing differently because my bone density has improved so much. Huzzah, that's actually really rare. And 80 plus years old. And he was amazed at my age. The only thing I've done differently whatsoever is to be faithful user of athletic greens since you first mentioned it when you're visiting Megan's mother and began taking it yourself for our listeners that is also when we conceived. You might have guessed that I am a bit fanatical about my running. I race regularly using five in 10 cases training to run longer distances. My goal this year is to run another marathon. I'm sure you have lots of older runners like me who might appreciate what I call the athletic greens advantage. Thank you for everything you do. Wow, they're trying to sell us some products for us, aren't they? I was so impressed with that email. Granted, I don't, looking at the mechanisms of athletic greens, I think it's this 80 plus year olds fortitude and athletic strength and prowess that's increasing her bone density. I don't think it's necessarily the athletic greens. But I have so many athletes and their training logs call it the green magic dust because it truly, I mean, it just makes you feel energized. It's kind of strange. Yeah, as someone that is about to be a PhD in this field, you probably do need to say, no bone density effects known in any of those ingredients. But I think- I mean, who knows? That's the thing is, is like we never know. I'm the ultimate skeptic, but you also never know when something surprises you. Yeah, exactly. That's why I look flagpoles. You just never know. But athletic greens, we do actually swear by NSF state is certified, safe for sport. Athletic greens.com slash swap SWAP, SWAP, where you also get vitamin D dropper, which you're not gonna take the whole thing. You must promise us because otherwise we might get sued. Okay, next up, I know just a very quick thing on wrong turn calculus. So as we get into races, I have noticed that one thing people don't talk about much is that when they're running out there, and they're worried that they haven't seen a trail marker for like a few hundred meters. Which is like me, the entire race. Yeah. They just spend the whole race worried that they've made a wrong turn until they see the next marker. And that seems like an unfun way to race. And so what I decided a few years ago is that I was just gonna commit to whatever wrong turn I ever made. So that I don't worry about it. So like I'm on the trail, I'm on, and unless I get like five miles, I'm just gone. So I'm gonna DNF if I ever make a wrong turn. And I think if you're like me and have anxiety, that might liberate you from some of the concerns. But you're also, I would say you're in the 99th percentile for decision making and direction following and things out there on the trail. Meanwhile, if I took that approach, I would end up like five miles on the side of a highway. I'd be pulling a gym waltzly on the highway at Western States. So I mean, I think it depends on your personality. But I do think there's something to being present when you're running. For me, I used to spend so much of my downhills thinking about just royally fucking my ankle. And I haven't done that recently until I started running the gamas. But I mean, I think there's something about just tuning in to being present, whether it's for wrong turns or ankle turns that is really helpful. Yeah, and I think essentially managing whatever anxieties you feel, it's okay to figure out ways to do that. And I'm actually kind of serious on this wrong turn thing. If you're the type of person that spends a lot of your races worried about that, never turn around. Like unless you have strong evidence. Unless you have strong evidence. But the point being like so often athletes like will turn around for no reason or whatever. It's just too much. So if you know you're off course, good. But if not, just don't worry about it. Just DNF. That's probably bad advice. I think that's bad advice. Is that advice? Well, I mean, I think there's some like prudent judgment that you make. So I've had situations where if I turn around and then someone else is coming, you know, like 30 seconds behind you, you can figure it out together. Maybe they have a better map situation, a better compass in their head. So I just think it depends. My take made Megan's loins shrivel like a broom. Unfortunately. Do you want to skip the ketones or go to it right now? You just have to get to Berkeley marathons. Let's go to Berkeley. OK. We're going to skip all the way ahead. Actually, no, let's go to ketones. And then we'll skip the other stuff and go to Berkeley. OK, great. So we were going to talk about everything everywhere all at once, winning all those Oscars. But just know, God, that brought us joy. What a great movie. If you haven't seen everything everywhere all at once, please do. That was amazing. But what we really wanted to talk about is it gets back to some of the studies comments we just talked about where just this past week, a study came out on hopping. So it essentially was called progressive daily hopping exercises, improve running economy and amateur runners. So they had 34 amateur runners. And they had a control group and a hopping group. The hopping group did five minutes of double-legged hopping daily. And they found that improved running economy at 12 kilometers an hour and 14 kilometers an hour. And this is, I would love to be in the room of this study design. Like, let's just make runners hop. And see what happens. I wonder how many other things you have to make them do before you get to the hopping. Yeah. It's like crab walk. What a sack race. Then the thing where you carry in a lot of spoon. And then you're going to spoon. Yes. Yes. High five. Going in the same spot. No. I mean, well, this is actually interesting. So there are some, like, unphysiological underpinnings that could make sense. So their theory is behind tendon stiffness. So tendon stiffness actually has a lot, highly correlates with running economy. And they didn't find speed increases. So they found speed increases at 12 and 14 kilometers. An hour, but not at 10. So the theory is, is like, oh, maybe this hopping actually is feeding into tendon stiffness. And there's some other biological mechanisms that make them think that hopping could actually induce tendon stiffness, which could improve running economy. But I feel like sometimes with scientific studies, you just have to put on your coaching hat, your common sentence hat, and the overall science hat and common conclusion. Your empirical evidence hat. Yeah. And it's like, if hopping was super effective, we'd see it a lot more. I do think there have been studies like this in the past, so that's why you might have heard people recommend jump rope or stuff like that. But the point being, if you have a well-rounded training plan, you are getting all of this and more. Especially trail running. You're doing a lot of hopping underpinnings. Yeah, and we're talking about hill strides, we're talking about something barefoot we talked about, or anything like that. Well, I mean, this is done in amateur runners. So amateur runners certainly aren't doing barefoot, probably. They're probably not doing hill strides. So that's why I think so much of exercise physiology done in amateur runners. It's like, yeah, let's see that in Olympians. But or anyone, I mean, who knows what the mechanism here is. And it gets back to why causation becomes such a problem, where that p-value might not necessarily mean much. And so study is very cool. And I love the fact that- Actually, this is a well-designed study. I love that researchers are doing it. They definitely saw something. But contrast that with a 2022 review in sports medicine, there's on exogenous ketones that we've talked about before. And essentially, it found that there's mechanistic ideas of why they might work, but no real world evidence that they actually work. Which is totally contrasted by the fact that 70% of professional cyclists take it. And so we're still not courageous, not courageous, but we're still sketched out by the idea of ketones. But the fact that the review studies can't find the cause of action, but meanwhile, we can find causation in hopping. It points out that make sure you're viewing every study in the context of your broader knowledge, experience, and understanding of how people train in the real world. I actually heard someone talk about the fact that ice vests don't lower internal body temperature for athletes thinking about longer ultras. But it's like you go to Western states and you go to Forest Hill. And so often, runners who are finishing the top 10 places are wearing ice vests. And it's always coaching is this fun art, because it's like, how do you combine the science with anecdotal evidence and mix it all into one? And it's really both an art and a science. Well, if you want to know more about how to make science and anecdotal evidence, you know what people should do? What? Subscribe to our Patreon. Oh, yeah. We have so much fun there. We had a question coming up, but we're probably not going to get there because we're going to spend more time on Barclays. So on Patreon, we answer all listener questions, talk about every new study, do a science corner each week. This week's science corner is actually going to be on downhill running relative to this and recommended of training. So patreon.com slash swap SWAP, SWAP. So we're moving a lot of our stuff that you might have found other places in the past. And a lot of fun happens there. And by stuff we mean you're brilliant writing. Oh, I was thinking you're saying our listeners brilliant writing, because we get some questions there that are absolutely gut-wrenchingly beautiful. So yeah, subscribe to our Patreon. And to end the podcast, let's talk about the Berkeley marathons, which happened this weekend. We'll try to broaden it out so it's relevant to everybody. But first, if you don't know what the Berkeley marathons are, it is the race that I think flummoxes is me the most in my head. I used to be a little skeptical of it when I first got into the sport being like, that sounds like a gimmick. And now I'm just like, I fucking love this race. It is so cool. Well, I think when I first got into the sport, I was like, that's silly. But I'm getting back to the point, that's the whole point. And I think it's so cool. And also too, it's transcendent. I think it's put ultra running on the map. So it's the number three of all topics, trending topic on Twitter this week. That's insane. Which is wild. This is ultra running. And I mean, top three is usually your most god-forsaken shit that's ever happened in the world. And then here we have Berkeley marathons where everyone's tweeting the dumbest jokes. I mean, I know I was contributing to the jokes. Results, inspiration, everyone's rooting for each other. It's like this bastion of mostly good-naturedness online. For the most part, though, there's some complications that I think are probably beyond this discussion. But it's so interesting. So for a primer, what the Berkeley marathons are is athletes have to complete five loops where they find book pages on each loop. So there's books planted throughout this forest, essentially, of the most steep terrain you've ever seen. It requires navigation skills. It requires 12 hours per loop, so 60 hours total. And it probably adds up to anywhere from 120 to 130 miles with 60 to 70,000 feet of climbing. So it's an incredibly insane challenge. And over history before this year, only 15 people had ever completed it over decades. And to put that for inter-conducts, for the first time, watch where dreams go to die last night, which is a film by Ginger Runner capturing the Berkeley marathons and kind of everything that goes into it through the lens of Gary Robbins. But in the primer for that video, I talked about the fact that 60,000 feet of vert is equivalent to going from sea level to Everest and back twice. So that's a lot of vert. Yeah, so much vert. But I think it points out a lot of interesting things about training more generally that we'll get to. But there's just also a lot that's endearing about it. There's some guy named Keith, as he's described on Twitter, who tweets all the updates. And he's like the only one tweeting updates. And so every year, he gains like 20,000 followers, which to put in perspective, UTMB only gained 4,000 followers over the course of the entire UTMB week. It shows how interested people are in this. The Berkeley's marathons is an inspirational thing for so many people, as evidenced by the Twitter comments we were talking about. So on that inspiration, when to highlight a couple results from this year, first, Jasmine Paris was only the second woman to finish a fun run, the three loops of the course, not a five. What a boss. Such a beast, so proud of her. She's amazing. She's also all that environmental activism has stood up for her beliefs in so many different ways. Absolutely love Jasmine, she rocks. She crushes multi-day stage races. And she's often like crushing men in the process too. And I love it. Yeah, she won the Spinaries overall a few years ago. And I think she still has the course record there. And for context, some of the athletes we're about to talk about have also won that race. And then I have three finishers this year, Aurelian Sanchez, John Kelly, and Carl Sad. We coached John and have coached him for a while. Absolutely love John, one of the best people we ever met. Have our great things about Aurelian and Carl too. And then one of our other athletes, Damien Hall, was one of the four to set out on the fifth loop. And on the fifth loop, I really respect he got zero of the book pages that they required to gather. He just was unable to find any sleep deprived days. Well, so on the first four loops, you can run with people. And so he ran with people. And then on the fifth loop, he was like, how the heck do I orient here? Which I actually really respect. He's a great athlete. But I don't know if orienteering is the strongest student. I think he would be honest with that. Yeah, that will especially after not sleeping for 50 hours or whatever, then it becomes really complicated. And sleep deprivation becomes a huge factor here. So that was amazing. And what we want to highlight very quickly is training for these types of incredibly steep races. So as we go through. And incredibly long races. Yeah. This is both steep. And I mean, there's so many different variables that go into this, including sleep and nutrition. I mean, it's a whole stew of variables. Yeah. And so John Kelly is someone who we've gotten to see firsthand now for four years of his day-to-day training. He's accomplished FKTs in this time that he won FKT of the year. A couple of years ago, he's won UK. When he was in the UK, he won the UK Felrunner of the year, which is hugely prestigious award. But John Kelly is not just someone that goes and plays in the mountains all day. Though that does define a lot of his personality. He also just ran a 226 marathon at CIM in December. He was seventh at the Bandera 100k, which wasn't his best day ever either. And he doesn't do insane volume. Like you might expect this type of athlete. They just go up and down mountains for 150 miles a week. And that's what prepares them. John does usually 60 to 80 miles per week. Sometimes he goes higher. Other times he's down at 30 or 40. He really does well-rounded training that gets specific closer to the event. And that's what Damien does too. And so I think it points out that you don't necessarily need to hammer your body into oblivion, even to excel at events that do hammer your body into oblivion. Well, I think that approach of hammering your body into oblivion can work on the short term. But over the long term, it becomes, I mean, you're just playing Russian roulette with injuries and over training and mental fatigue. And it's really challenging to stack that up. But John Kelly, at the end of this event, you had a great tweet. It was a picture of John Kelly. He was looking vibrant, and he was splendid. And what was your tweet? OK, thank you, Regan. I like this is how you know I'm making Meghan's loins into a great, from the prunes, is that she's mentioning one of my tweets. And it was a picture of John on loop five, just looking amazing. And as his training, his nutrition, his mental strategy, those questions have been asked. What we need to know is John Kelly's skincare routine. So we'll get that for you shortly here. But John is also a data scientist. He's a brilliant, he's just brilliant all around. So along the lines of him being a data scientist, he has one of the best Twitter handles of all time. So random forest runners, a random forest is a machine learning algorithm. And anytime I'm literally in a random forest, I'm like, what a great Instagram Twitter handle. You know what's hilarious? I had no fucking clue. Until you just said that. I mean, I assume that's why he's a random forest runner. I'm sure. He's a data scientist. So he must be. Yeah, it makes so much more sense now. I was like, oh, he runs in random forest. I feel idiotic. But thankfully, he's scheduled me, trusting me with his training. And one other bad ass thing he did before we get to more on that is this year he scheduled tweets for during the event. So this event takes a number of days. And as he was setting out on his fifth loop, he had a tweet ready to go that essentially said, a lot of people ask me why I do this and why I'm back here after being a previous finisher. He was the last finisher of this race in 2017. No one had finished since then. And he's like, essentially I'm about to find out. Hashtag scheduled tweet. And I was like, that is bad ass as shit. I'm scared to even say I'm doing the Canyons 100K on the podcast. He's out here scheduling slag tweets. How cool is that? You should schedule some tweets during Canyons under K. Hashtag skincare. Yeah, C is for curled up on the side of the trail dying. So, you know, big conclusion here is that speed still matters for these events. Like the specific nature of the demands of the event, as Megan was saying, do tend towards an athlete really getting slow over time. Because if you view the specific demands of this event as your sole goal, it means you're going up and down mountains constantly at a relatively slow pace. Because this is relatively slow race, given that it's 60 hours. And that's great, and it can lead to success. But that adds up against some of the things we talked about earlier with some of the vert. So as you do tons and tons of vert, your body is under a fuck ton of pressure, right? Some of the same good adaptations we talked about that you wanna do a couple times per week as you're approaching the season. End up defining your entire nature. To where you're broken down all the time. Even if you're able to avoid a bone injury, you're unable to put out power and do workouts and fast things that might make you faster. So as you get better at going slower for longer, eventually you just get slower, and then you have trouble even going slower for longer. And so that's what we've kind of tried to harness with John and Damien. And people might disagree with that to a certain extent, but I do think that even if you're training for hard rock or Barclays or whatever, it still comes down to the same things we always talk about. Your velocity or act a threshold or something like that is gonna be with dictates your ability to progress over years. One thing I was curious about that we talked about last night is that so often intuitively, you would think that after a race like this, you take like six months off. Like you let the whole body, you let the reset, you let the nervous system reset. Do you think about like central fatigue? You're only having, it sounds like John take a few days off. Why is that? Well, we don't maintain a high stress year round. And so my concern is that once you do this type of event, it is such a massive fucking stress. And this doesn't just go for a Barclays, it also goes for 100 miles you do or road marathons you do. Any of these events that are major breakdown stresses. And then I sometimes hear people like, okay now rest for two weeks or four weeks or whatever. I'm like, oh my God, the thing that can do to the nervous system for intense. The nervous system just shuts down. Yeah. And so where I have John and Damien do after they do, this isn't their only long adventures. I mean, John has done Wayne rights. Damien in January won the Spine Race, which is 268 miles in winter in Europe, is get back really quickly into shorter runs and hill strides. So not things that cause any stress on their bodies, but things to get their power output, their cardiac output, their nervous system back online, sooner rather than later. So yes, still rest after the event, make sure you're not injured, but then get back into it kind of quickly. And I think a parallel application of this, I mean, not everyone out there is running 268 mile races. That's a really long ways. But we often have similar approaches with athletes coming back after 100 Ks, 100 mileers, where we're having them work in strides in a relatively short duration after the race. Yeah, and I think it's a good general to do. And it's still, you still need to rest after races, but the rest can be like on the move to a certain extent. Like don't go long, don't get it back into training, but letting your body totally shut down, I think can be bad. And as long as you're not over training all year, you probably don't need it. Like physically you're gonna be better if you measured your blood work in like five to seven days. But necessarily you won't be better in a month. After a month, you might do those same measurements and be like that athlete might be suffering from some over training, some nervous system overload. So it's important, I think, to do those types of stresses. And then basically the big takeaway here is no matter who you are, whether you're training for Barclays or a 10K, like still keep coming back to your 10K speed. We got an amazing question on Patreon this past week from an athlete that's like, I don't have any races for nine months. How should I adjust my training for a 50-hour that's in nine months? And what you said is train for a 10K. And I love it, that's so perfect, because it's all the physiological systems that are gonna be just as relevant at Barclays, the things that aren't relevant are things like logistics and all that. And you can work through it without doing runs of 20 hours in training. Well, the other thing about Barclays too, is that you're layering in, there's so many different complexities that are coming into how you actually train and race for this. What is the advice that you give? I mean, sleep is a huge strategy. So what is the advice that you give to athletes for scheduling a sleep, structuring sleep while they're at there? Yeah, great question. I mean, John and Damien know very well what it works for them. Yeah, it's so it's such an individualistic thing. It's like shoes. And I mean, you'll get the where dreams go to die. It had the 2016 race where John didn't finish. And it showed him finishing loop four, looking like he was on another fucking planet. You actually took a video of it for it. And then you showed Leo too in the video and he was like, I think I look like Leo right now. Yeah, Leo was about to go to sleep. And so he's learned the hard way. It looks like for him. But in general, what I say is micronaps only. Like the more I see this, the more I think like hour plus, there's very little benefit that is not. I guess depending upon the duration, I imagine if you're going, if you're doing like a 10 day stage for you. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. You really gotta think about longer sleeves. Yeah, I think 60 hours being about the limit, which is also how long your labor took. How crazy is that that this race is the same amount of time that your labor was? Oh, I believe it. You believe it? And I don't think I took more than 15 minute naps, that's for sure. OK, do you have anything else you want to talk about with Barclays? No, just that it's cool. And I think like the more we think about running as silly and adventurous and just doing random things, like grabbing pages of books in the woods over 60 hours, it's kind of fun. Yeah, and I mean, I think everything's like that, right? I'm going to try to go to the canyons with that same mindset. Just grab pages off trees. Yes. I'm just going to be hallucinating out there at like 20K. OK, we do celebrate hallucinations in this community. Like, I'll have Courtney to Walter, but you're only allowed to do it after 200K. Like, if you're doing it at a 20K, you might have a problem. OK, on to listener corner, this is an absolutely beautiful one that we think is going to touch you all. I hope this is the right email to reach you guys. I found it on your website. If not, sorry for spamming your other work-related emails. And for anyone out there, emails all over the net, please, we are here here no matter what. And we will love to be a part of your lives in any small way possible. And no such thing as listeners spam at all. Oh, my God. No. No, even if a listeners sent spam. Yeah, I was going to say the same thing. Yeah. We just be like, this is delicious. And it's definitely not spam. And I've told myself for months that I would reach out to you. But until your latest episode, where you get again and normal, normalize and validate taboo topics, mental health, death, and disorders love, I need to share how much it means to me as one of your dedicated listeners. I've been in a very, very dark place for a while now. I work in a tough field, and I've been lost and burnt out for many years. And so for everyone, I've taken out the identifying information. So some of the things might be like, oh, that's very general. It's because I didn't want to make sure any of that was in it. I lost my father and I have dealt with grief. A life was taken without warning or cause. Feeling like I lost who I am, where I'm from, and most of the qualities that make me me. And I turned to running. Early in my grief, I stopped eating, stopped caring, lost weight, lost friends, had difficulty with my career, and overall heeded myself and my life. So what did I do? I signed up for a race. Oh, heck yes. My dad was my biggest supporter in athletics and all of my life, really. So I hit the trails in the weight room, hoping it would make him proud. I no longer had a choice. I had to eat and sleep and take care of myself. However, I found my thoughts spiraling during my runs and experienced too many panic attacks. But I quickly filled the silence with both of your lovely, fast speaking voices. David, you make me laugh with your raunchy jokes, helping the prunes. Prunes are helping on this episode. Megan, you bring a warm and inspiring energy. Together, you both make me feel seen, heard, light and loved through your open and honest conversations. I'm well into this nightmare, and I still have the lowest of low days. Please know that you lift me up and help me re-center every time you do what you do. Sometimes it can feel like we might not be making a difference in this world. And I want you to know that you're changing my world. You're helping me through the most traumatic time in your life and my life. Oh my gosh, just so much love. Yeah. I want to get back to it that's so hard. And it's like... Well, I'll screeve trauma. Gets back to a lot of what we talked about with Kara. Yeah, and I mean, the big reason that we wanted to read this is essentially for people out there to know that any small action that you make in your life can add up in ways that you don't foresee. And so, God, I know I have days when I wake up and I'm like, what the fuck am I doing? Oh, I have a lot of those days. Especially running, honestly. I think I have that maybe more than most runners. Especially when I need an unplanned rest day. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, but in that context, everyone is right there alongside you. And yes, what you are going through can be so much harder than what other people are going through. But it's all within this scale. And while you're there, maybe what we can do is just put the smallest finger on the side of the scale that is late in love in our lives with people that we are around, whatever. Send exclamation points and emails, be the silly person. Whatever it is that adds that to the people around you, I think can add up in small ways. And maybe there's small ways of what it's all about. I think one of the reasons we share listener corner is because it's like we get so many of these. And I think the point of that is that it's like, we should all give each other a warm hug because we're all struggling through a lot of shit. And it's just about being there for people in this time. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. How's your, how's your, how's your loins feeling? My loins are feeling great. Also, we talk about putting exclamation points and emails. I don't think I told you this, but I wrote an email for my boss, like a mass email to send out. And I got multiple people reaching out to me. And they're like, did you write that email for your boss? It was so sloppy. Yeah. Okay. So the exclamation points are a giveaway. Yeah. Okay. So maybe if you're trying to maintain a little profile, no exclamation points. I mean, it was a, it was a delicate amount of exclamation points. I didn't overdo it. Like sometimes when you get like tons of exclamation points you're like, whoa, how much, what is that person tripping on? It was a, it was an appropriate amount of exclamation points. There's a lot of like amazing and like, you're, you're great. Yeah. Have a fantastic day. That kind of stuff. You're loved and you were perfect. Exactly. Yeah. Best, Megan. That's right. I kind of worry that chat GPT, like the AI system could kind of take a lot of what we do and do it better. False. They wouldn't have prunes. They wouldn't have prunes. Yes. The AI has not quite gotten to the loin prune ratio that we did on this podcast, which makes me feel seen and loved and heard much like we hope you all do. Woohoo. We love you all. Huzzah. Huzzah. Bye. .