152. Canyons 100k Lessons, 5 Rules for Fueling During Runs, and Lower Volume Training!

Welcome to the Some Work All Play podcast. We are so happy to do with you today. Happy Tuesday. It's Tuesday. And David, I'm still over here swooning and freaking love on this Tuesday. Why is that, Megan? Is it because I actually sleep-trained Leo last night and took some responsibility in the middle of the night? I'm so proud of you for that. Yes, that actually. Well, we can actually just start with that. So I've been really tired. Leo has not slept in like two months and I've been waking up a lot. And I kind of came to you post-race and said, David, I need help. And your response, you went full CEO boss bitch. And you're like, I'm not going to wake up in the middle night. I'm just going to sleep-train him. And he's been working. Well, you're the supporter of the century because in the few days before the race, honestly, in the whole week before the race, after you got your PhD, you were constantly comforting him because he had a major sleep progression, as babies do. You probably heard us alluding to it on the podcast about how our sleep had been really low. And I was getting these sleep scores that were just baller. I was crushing it. And every day, your sleep score was getting lower and lower and lower as Leo got worse and worse. To the point that I'm pretty sure you didn't sleep for three days straight before then you crude me all day long. So I think I owe you. And thankfully, Leo slept 12 hours last night. Oh, thank you. Well, yeah, you're getting like 97 sleep score. So Garmin gives you a sleep score. And yours was like 97. I was in the 40s. I was like, we might need to gray at this on a curve because this is not good. But I love last night, you're like, Megan, I've got this. I'm going to take responsibility. And you came in with all of these rules for sleep training and it actually worked. Yeah, I'm really proud of myself. And I'm also proud of you because when he cried, you were like, can he breathe? Is he okay? And I was like, yeah, don't let's, we got this. I was Leo, bitch, I got this. It was like water torture hearing him cry in the night. He cried for like 45 minutes at 11 p.m. and then just sent it the rest of the night. But that 45 minutes I was staring at the video camera app on my phone just being like, I can't do this. I can't do this. It was like doing, counting down VO2 workouts and it didn't track workout. Babies are so fascinating. And something that I actually going to reflect on with 100K to that we're going to get to in a second is that with a baby, you do these rules that people have and they learn so rapidly. So like when you take off a lot of whatever external things we put on our brains as we grow up, Leo learned after one little sleep train, oh, this is what they need me to do. I'm going to do this. Similarly with the 100K, I learned out there all of this stuff about my physiology that I would only know by going out there into the field and experiencing it with my own unique genetics. So I don't know, it's a very cool experience. So I'm happy we're bringing a lot of extra sleep to this episode. My legs are a little wrecked, but my brain is ready. I love it. Well, we're following something called the Ferber Method. There's totally different methods out there for going about this sleep training madness. And last night you were so committed to the cause, I felt like we needed to frame it like the roach method. I feel like you wanted to like lock him in the closet and play a bony bear for him or something. You do that all night long and I was like, I can only last three minutes. This is so hard. All versions of baby sleep training are essentially saying, okay, now you put the baby in the trunk of your car and you close the door and you don't ever open that door no matter how much you hear coming from it. But you do play some bony bear for them. You give them a gentle calming loving environment and you let them scream. Okay, one last thing, promise this won't be a parenting podcast. I know it's really annoying to some people, but the parents out there will really appreciate that. And even non-parents will like this. So last night, I was told for the sleep training you should sing them a little song. So I sang them to go to a little star and put them down to sleep. And then today, before his first nap, I sang him Twinkle Twinkle Little Star again. And as soon as I hit the first note, he started freaking out. I've never seen such a terrible reaction to Twinkle Twinkle Little Star. It's pretty funny. He's a smart motherfucker. He was like, it's time for sleep. I mean, your rendition of Twinkle Twinkle Little Star is pretty good. You made the high notes quite well. It was really, really good. Like, I'm pretty sure that I have a recording contract in my future for one of those children's things because I'm listening to a lot of children's music right now. Some of it isn't very good. Some of it's good. A lot of children's music and Avril Lavigne. We're bringing that back. But can we celebrate you for a second? Because you just, when I say that I'm like swooning in love, it's because I saw you navigate a dark forest this weekend of Canyon's 100K and you did it. You sent it. And we've had a lot of moments in our like 12 year relationship. And I honestly don't think I've been in love with you as I was like in that race watching you send it. And it was really fascinating to me. It was like so cool to see you go through that. Yeah, well that's shocking to say because we're gonna get into a few details later. But at the mile 50 aid station, I was in a really tough place. And you kissed me and sent me on my way. And then literally like a minute later, I've vomited all of my stomach contents up so violently. And that's one of your phobias as our listeners know. So I'm glad that you still maintain the love when all my stomach contents were on the trail. Well, I hate vomiting, but I've actually, I've like worked through it. I've had enough exposure therapy in med school that doesn't quite bother me so much anymore. But I knew it. I knew in your eyes and like in your look I was like, we should just send him on his way because he does this in the aid station. He might not get out of here. It's kind of fascinating actually like that dynamic that happens between like a partner that you've seen for a long time in races. Like I saw so much fear in your eyes and I also saw that impending vomit. And it's fascinating to see like how that plays out when you know your partner so well. Yeah, I mean, I was so scared at that point. It's so weird. And I guess we'll get maybe a little bit into that now and a little bit later before we talk about other topics is so I got to this aid station. And the race was going amazingly. I mismanaged a few things that we'll talk about later and probably lost 45 minutes an hour in this really exposed difficult place. And I get to this aid station and just dehydrated, cramping, all the things that happen in these races. And Megan just gave me the biggest dose of love but also a lot of tough love. And just grabbed my lower back and just directed me out of the aid station. And I was like, Megan, you have to promise me you're not gonna leave here for 10 or 15 minutes in case I come back. And you're like, sure, sure. Then you pack up your shit, you go and you don't show up at any other aid station. These are like not giving you the chance to drop out. Well, we're talking about your CEO, boss, bitch move, like sleep training. And I was like that at aid stations. I was like, I can't see them the rest of the race. And the minute I thought that I was gonna see you, you were just gonna come back in my car. So I was like, I'm gonna see you at the finish buddy and you're gonna walk the rest of the way. And I learned so much. You know, I am love coaching these things. And you know, we've coached people that win world championships at these events. But one of the things that you can't know until you do it is how your specific physiology will respond. And I always assumed I couldn't do this, at least at this point in my life. In fact, my dad, my biggest supporter, my athletic idol, who's guided me so much throughout my life and every topic, he said that after the race, he thought there was over an 80% chance I would DNF. Just seeing my athletic trajectory. And I mean, my dad was there with a video camera at my football games, filming my 40 yard dashes to send to college football coaches. And he's also seen how I've, you know, been better at short races throughout my life. He knows I'm a type two fast switch athlete. And when he's like, David, I've never been more proud of you seeing this. And so I was really proud of that. And then in a double the farthest distance I've ever run, it was 66 miles in the end with over 10,000 feet of climbing. And it got up to 90 degrees out there. And I was fifth place. You crushed it. I was a fifth place. I was so proud of you because you're so fast. You're running like six minute miles in the beginning. And then you had a little dark first and then you rebounded too, which I thought was so cool. So I mean, as you were saying, you're a dad was saying, you're a type two fiber boy. Like that's your existence. That's your heritage. And I thought it was so cool because it takes a level of vulnerability to step up and do that in front of a lot of people watching you. And to do that after only having raised a 50K before and being in the public eye and knowing that about, you know, your type two fibers and you don't always love the heat, I thought it was so cool. Thank you so much. Well, my great day so would have been, you know, incredible. Right? Like I still think, I still know that in my heart. And I know that the next, I wish I could race in four more days with what I learned after I recover and apply it. Though I won't do that because as we talk about the podcast, this is burgers and pizza time and chilling. But I learned so much. And I think we'll have a lot of takeaways that apply to everybody because it's gonna make me such a better coach, not necessarily in the training aspect of it. Because I think the training was as close to perfect as it gets. I felt so good, fitness wise the whole time. But in understanding how your specific genetics apply and why long-term growth isn't just like a training fitness thing, but also then it ends up, especially in ultras, being a strategy logistics, you know, specifically understanding your context thing. And I think I'll be able to much better direct athletes about how to understand that piece. Well, what I appreciated is you've been that person, that coach talking to athletes when they're in the aid station and like trying to get them out the door, trying to get them out the aid station. And to look into your eyes and see the level of fear and just honestly, Frank Trauma, you're like, oh fuck this. I was, you have to look, I mean, how I was feeling at that point. So race was going amazingly up until the 40s something. And then I started cramping really bad because I mismanaged electrolytes and we'll have some really cool takeaways on that. And I was basically like, okay, I think I'll be able to finish, but it'll be a walk and it'll be like chasing a cutoff essentially. And you know, it was just really hard to conceive of a full subversion of ego like that. And in understanding of how painful it was gonna be just to suffer through that as my stomach was violently revolting and I was cramping and all these other things. And then it turned around and you know, your love played such a huge role in that. And I mean, I've never loved you more than when I was on the trail. Like just suffering through it and being like, well, I wouldn't be out here if it weren't for her. It was, it was. And then yeah, it was just so cool. It was so, so cool to watch play out. And like I said, I had never loved you more. Like seeing someone navigate a dark forest like that with like courage and vulnerability and stepping up and doing it is so cool. And I also loved you because you sped up. And I was, I was like, crewing Leo as well. So I was trying to take care of Leo, or a little guy and crewing you. And I've had this moment where I was like, oh my gosh, this could be a really freaking long day. And you didn't make it a long day for us. It was great. I mean, I would have been there with you, like for love if that happened. I would have waited for the very last finish or if that was you, but you let us get home for dinner too. That was great. And I got to carry Leo across the finish line. Yeah, I was horrified about that. Were you scared about that? I feel like barely move. And I was like, you're going to take this fragile baby and walk in them across the finish line, but you did great. Yeah. And I was also like, well, I won't be able to stop my Garmin when I need to. Should I still do this? It was actually really fun. Thanks for letting me do that. I didn't drop the baby, which is good. I was proud of you for that. It was really, okay. So let's do a little zoom out here and talk about some things that are kind of fun relative to the race. Talk about the race a little bit. Then get into a couple of details that might be relevant to any athlete that suffers from some of these low points in ways to troubleshoot them, manage them that I learned on the fly. And I wish I could apply in four days. Well, I think you're a great case study for a lot of listeners and a lot of runners out there because you're stepping up into the total unknown. And yes, you're doing, you're an elite athlete. You're a very fast athlete. But I think it's rare to have an athlete that's doing so with such uncertainty at that high level. And I think there's a lot to learn from that because there's so many people that are stepping into the unknown of something and you did it with grace and courage and it was so cool. Thank you. Well, I also do. And a lot of vomit. A lot of vomit and a little bit of deception. Let's get to our first discussion, which is on the heat. So the temperature here was 90 degrees. I think that this applies to any race where the conditions aren't necessarily perfect or any training day for that matter. And this relates back to a 2012 study in the European Journal of Applied Physiology. And here's the title, Deception of Ambient and Body Core Temperature Improves Self-Paste Cycling in Hot Humid Conditions. Incredibly cool study design they used here. And I love studies that have deception designs. I use a lot of them actually in psychology and in exercise physiology research. And there's kind of like fascinating like how you actually control the research word. I find it very cool. But what they did is they took seven males and they did a 30 minute cycling trial and they did so in randomized order. So one of the trials was in temperate conditions, which was 70 degrees Fahrenheit. Another was in hot conditions of 90 degree Fahrenheit and another one repeated in those hot conditions. But what they did was in one of the hot conditions the participants were actually deceived into thinking it was 80 instead of 90 and that their core temperature, which they had access to knowing was actually a half degree lower. So they deceived them into thinking that the temperature was lower. Yeah and the wild finding here is that it improved power output and pace a lot. But it improved it so much that the hot conditions in the deception study protocol were the same or not statistically different than the temperate conditions. So even though it was 90 degrees in one and 70 degrees in the other, the athletes that were deceived performed just as well. And I think it points out just how much the brain plays a role in these types of things. And here's a quote from the article, deception improved performance in the heat by creating lower relative perceived exertion, evidence of a subtle mismatch between the subconscious expectation and conscious perception of the task demands. And my key word there is the subconscious expectation. Because I think that this evolves throughout a race. And so thinking about my race for example, I had this subconscious expectation of like honestly greatness throughout. Because that's what I need to perform and it worked really well. But then when things started going south, that fully flipped. And I felt it when I got to that aid station in solute. My subconscious expectation was that this was not possible. And you helped flip it and get it back to a point where it might have been. And it took a few miles of walking and puking to get there. But we are in control of this variable a lot more than we think we are. And I think this study really points it out. And we talked about last week about the concept of dopamine. And I think dopamine actually playing a role in relative perceived exertion. And I think using the powers of dopamine. And I don't know, deception is interesting because I think if you have deception too often, I think if we deceived you too many times as a crew, you would start to be like those bastards. Like it wouldn't work. And so I think it's interesting like how you frame it to yourself in ways that perhaps aren't deception but can kind of harness some of these study findings. I wonder if all self talk though is a slight version of deception. It's a great point. And almost all belief systems in general. It's like why else can you lead yourself to do something when we're talking about athletics that is relatively meaningless in the big scheme of things? At least you understand that on some deep level when you're out there doing a three minute hill interval or going out for a double that you don't want to do or whatever it is. And that's where I think this comes in handy is that I think they call it deception in this study because they're objectively lying. Yeah, it's a specific study design. Yes, exactly. But I think you can have honest, like a version of honest deception in how you think about and conceive of training. Yeah, almost all of it's subjective. Exactly, yeah. And in subjective things, you just can turn that dial one or two notches. And so on the podcast we talk all about loving yourself and accepting yourself completely. And I think that that's where the really important part of this happens in something like a race or something really difficult because your brain will change that subtle mismatch to be, I suck, I don't deserve to be here, I'm going to DNF, when things go south unless you have something, some backbone that can guide you. For me it was the crew and this understanding that people would be proud of me for doing it. Like it meant so much to me in that moment that I was out there with people that were chasing cut offs in the heat and that we were going through the same thing and I wanted to show to them that I cared about them. Like that externalization of it meant a lot to me. But we can all do that in everything we do, figuring out a way to guide our emotions to an uplifting place. Even as it might not necessarily be the exact truth of our reality in that moment. And I think that's a very like internal thing that happens. I also think the tailwind of people can help you get in that direction. Like I think if you struggle with that and you have a headwind essentially of people that are coming in and like being negative for us as they're perhaps aren't being helpful out there, it becomes so much harder. So I feel like when you're crewing people too, it's like be that tailwind. And there's this sort of balance between like, I think delusion is not great. So there's a balance between like honest deception and delusion, don't go towards delusion, like that's not helpful. But I love the idea about using honest deception. Like you came into the A station and I was like, you look so fucking good. You're so fucking sexy. The sexy part was true. You did not look great in that moment. How would you describe how I looked? You look like a ghost that was wandering the trails ready to explode. Exporting ghosts. Yeah. Kind of like Ghostbusters, they had like the slimmer or whatever. Oh yeah, uh-huh. Vomit things. That was basically like I was slimmer. I was slimmer. You're slimmer, yeah. You're sexy slimmer. And so talking about the heat brings us to a listener email, here it is. I did a poor man's heat training last summer from my Remderum de Rem in the Grand Canyon. This was during the heat dome period when it reached well into the triple digits. I know this is dangerous, but I took precautions. I had to pick my kids up after school each day. So the weeks leading up to the run, I would sit in the car with everything off for about 30 minutes. I would arrive 30 minutes before my kids would get to my car. So I knew someone would open it if I passed out. The results. After a few of those sessions, I would shiver when other people were hot around me. 80 Fahrenheit felt chilly. There were are no saunas around me within 50 miles, but I made one. This listener is so badass. What a great idea. It's like totally a DIY approach. And I feel like if you live in a hot area, it's great. This actually brings me, so during like right in the heart of the COVID pandemic, sauna training was not an option, obviously, because everything was closed. And so what I did was I took a couple zoom meetings in my car, like in the heat, just creating a sauna in my car. But what would happen actually is I'd be like presenting on these zoom meetings and my internet from my phone, like tethering would crap out because my phone would overheat. So that was a life failed, don't do that. But all kinds of creative solutions. Yeah, yeah. So heat exposure is helpful, but whether it's heat or some other major stressor, try as much as you can to direct your thoughts about yourself in particular, into a slightly more positive place, it's gonna help performance. And I think the cool thing is those subtle mismatches can be reprogrammed slightly over time. And I can't wait till my next ultra, like especially my next long ultra, because I can harness that knowledge so much better at this, whatever's to come. Well, we had a lot of fun the week before the race playing a game. So it was pretty hot in California, the week before the race, which was nice heat churning for you. But we'd be standing in the heat and we'd just be like, we're so cold right now. It is so cold out here. We need a parka, we need a coffee coat, cup coffee coat, it's freezing. Actually, the real game that was being played and you always screwed it up was, I was like, Megan, what's your body temperature right now? Or how do you feel? And so we'd be outside and I'd be like, okay, it's objectively hot right now, but I feel okay, like I'm okay. And Megan'd be like, oh, it's kind of chilly actually. And she would not realize that I was trying to play a game with it. I'm trying to hope that she was hot, which would indicate that my heat acclimation was catching up. But no, I am not a good heat boy. And I tried to turn it around with some deception and it mostly worked. I never really thought heat was what did me in, but it played a role for sure. Well, you did so well navigating that. I think also too, like you had every, you could have dropped onto the 50K, seeing that weather forecast and you didn't. And I thought that was really cool. Like you went into this eyes wide open, you fully knew what was gonna happen out there. And you still did it and you still got vulnerable. I wanted the dark forest. Yeah, exactly. I wanted to learn that. And I wanted to be out there with other people suffering greatly and it was pretty funny. Well, honestly, I'm so sorry you had to experience it. It didn't look like fun, but I almost feel like for your first, like if you had stepped up to the 100K distance and it was like purely easy and purely a joyful celebration, I feel like you got a lot more meaning from this even though it was like such a hard day and I'm sorry you had to go through that. But it also made it really special for us, like seeing you navigate that and come back from it. Actually, though, I had so much fun. Like I knew that's so weird to say, even in the moment, like I got to the finish line, you could probably hear me say, that was so much fun. I was surprised. My first thought was he's gonna be like, I'm never doing this again. No, I mean, no, it was obviously, it was hard. And there was a period of time where I didn't think I could do it, but I knew that was gonna happen coming in. Like even in a good day, I was gonna have to dig to places I never dug before. And one of an athlete that finished fourth in the 100-mile or Alex Borsack, I asked what her advice would be to me going into this race because she's such a champion at these long ultra distances. And she said something like, you know, you have done harder things, be ready for that difficulty. Like that's why you're here. And that reminder played such a role as I thought about like, okay, courage for me right now is not pushing for a win. Like that's an easier type of courage that hopefully I've demonstrated before. The type of courage that I wanna demonstrate is like pushing when that doesn't, is totally off the table. And you're fighting the same fight that everybody else behind you is. And you know, the whole time I was expecting like the entire field to gobble me up, I thought I was gonna finish like last place. And it just shows one how difficult today is, but two, that this is what altars are. And I loved that. The strategy part, the pushing through it, it was so cool. Everyone out there, if you haven't done something crazy like this, do it. Like it's such a weird like recommendation because in the past, I've always been like, okay, stay as short as you can for as long as you can. After doing it, I'm like, holy shit, I learned so much about myself to have nothing to do with training or athletics. I can't wait to apply everybody, where else? Yeah, it's like playing the Oregon Trail and you're just handed these like horrible cards. It's like you just died of dysentery out there. You gotta navigate through it. And I feel like that's ultra running. But you've been, I mean, I think you're in this unique place because there's almost this like constant battle between like shorter distance racing and longer distance racing of what's harder. You've been, I mean, I remember blue sky marathon, your average Hari, it was 169 for that race, which has to really freak and hurt. What was, what's harder, shorter distance? Like let's say a hard marathon or a 100k. And obviously you just have one to think about. And this is, I assume like 100 miles, like there's lots of different contexts here. But what would you say? That's an amazing question. So for context, for listeners, my heart rate in this one was in the 140s. The effort was never that high. And okay, this might be a little sacrilege and it might have to do with my fast switch fibers. So the difference might be, like other people might feel differently. But I definitely think shorter distances harder. So, you know, I would say mountain championships that also, the US mountain championships happened this weekend. Much more difficult race in terms of how hard it would be for me than the 100k. Like the 100k was a practice in strategic management of conditions. And it was a place I did really well until I didn't do well and then I did well again. In that part, the mental part was a totally different experience. But the physical part, I thought was easier in some ways. And when I got to the finish line, you were like, oh, I can go 100 miles right now, because I just gotten like kind of a slog. And maybe it would have been different if I had a great day and pushed the whole time. And I would have been like, fuck that, it was hardest thing I've ever done. But, you know, once you get into that groove, you're like, oh shit, I can do things I never thought possible. And it's more of a question of mental will rather than physical failure. What's harder, like, standing on the start line is obviously, and especially for you at the start line, you're heading right into the unknown. Would you have more anxiety standing on the mountain champs, start line, or 100k start line? Mountain champs for sure. Yeah. Oh my God, the 100k was so fun. Yeah, cause you start so easy. Yeah, it's so easy. I was like, I mean, if you've tracked, like I heard the tracker was off, but you know, I was running at the front, most of the race until it got really exposed and had some electrolyte issues. And my hurry was low, like, fueling was good. And it was so, that part of it was just joyous. Like, I enjoyed that part of the race so much. Yeah. And at the mountain champs, I think I would enjoy three steps before it got very difficult. And it would be very fun, but in a different way. Yes, yeah. And the deception for the 100k is fooling yourself almost or like telling yourself that the entire experience is gonna be one that, you know, amalgamates into something really meaningful to you, which it did. In the short distance race, it would essentially be deceiving yourself into saying like, I look forward to this pain. Which, you know, at least for me, is a little more difficult. That's really hard to do. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, there's so much anxiety, like stepping up into that unknown as well. Yeah, so I can't wait to do more. Okay. And then this is actually a really interesting thing that kind of relates to how you conceive of yourself. So this is on chat GPT, the artificial intelligence engine that you've probably seen and probably used. You should probably use it. It's incredible. And researchers did a test where they asked the algorithm, or the chat GPT, what is a synonym for the word goal that starts with the letter C? If they just asked it that question, it was correct 35% of the time. That's pretty poor. It's pretty... I'm surprised actually. I mean, that's a pretty straightforward situation. Yeah. You know, it's a large language model. So it's just predicting the next word in the sequence. It's not very good at predictive things that involve this type of linguistic approach. Like, so people that know it would also know it's not good at this. Yeah. And which points out that it's not sentient, it's not our brains yet. It's not going in that direction quite yet. But then they asked it the same question, but it was just preceded with this sentence to start. You are a linguistic expert. Now, what is the synonym? And it finished the question. It was correct 92% of the time when it was told it was a linguistics expert, as opposed to 35%. It's wild. I feel like the corollary there is to tell you that you're a descendant of Adam Peter God. Yeah, yeah. You are a David demigod. And see what happens to your racing. I feel like you might run 40 minutes faster and 100k. Yeah, and I mean, I think I did do that. Like, I went into this race, and even now I know that a good day would have been a really good day. I managed a tough day, as did I think every racer. You know, it was very tough to, you know, only maybe a few people have really great days. And others that, you know, we're going a little bit back. But I think that understanding this narrative you have about yourself, the prelude to whatever question you're asking yourself is so fucking key. Like, if I had said to myself, you are going to DNF this race, you know, because we had reached after we processed this on the podcast, like, Megan's like, you're finishing this race. No matter what, you're finishing. If I had said, you were going to DNF this race, now go race this, what's going to happen, I would have DNFed. And they're the same conditions. But with Megan saying, you are an absolute badass beast, and you are going to finish this race, and you're going to do well, I managed the day and actually had a pretty good performance that I'm proud of. And I think it's fascinating, like, what you plug into that sentence. Because I think you can do it with anything. I mean, it's not just running. Like, I think running is so direct because it's like RPE, it's effort related. But I think things like presentations, like job searches, interviews, like, plug that sentence in. And I feel like have a different sentence for everything in life. Yeah, you're a sexy beast. Yeah. No matter who you are, like, that is the fucking key. It makes life so much more fun. And I think a little bit better, like, I don't know, I keep coming back. The amount that this was unthinkable to me, like, 66 miles with 10,000 feet of dirt, is just, like, unspeakable. Even though I understand the training, even though I knew my training was there and I was ready, it's just, my physiology is so different. I don't, it wasn't that long ago that, like, a 10 mile run would take all of my energy and effort. And I remember those so deeply. And I remember thinking, I'll never be able to raise a half marathon, then a marathon, then a 50k. The first time we did a 50k, we were both like, holy shit, this seems impossible. And so, you know, having that context and that support from you to help me do that was so cool. I mean, I feel like so much of coaching, it's helping craft that first sentence of like, what, like, anchoring people in their abilities and their, and helping that, like drive the expectations and drive the long-term outcomes. It's a really fun honor to be a part of. Yeah, remember that subtle mismatch, whether it's with your coach or your partner or anyone, and try to make sure that subtle mismatch is not, is directed in a way that benefits you, rather than being neutral or even worse, directed in the opposite way. Because like, over time, those, you know, 0.5% subtle mismatches add up to like, 10% differences or 20 or 30 or, or doing things that are absolutely unthinkable, whatever that is. It's like, after doing this, I always thought that I would be a short distance runner. After doing this, I'm like, I could do, you know, a 200-mileer. I mean, that's as insane as that. I don't want to yet. Maybe I will in the future, but I could imagine it. 200? Yeah. 200. Yeah. I don't want to anytime soon. Okay, good. Yeah. But I said that about 100k. Yeah. So who knows? It's so cool. It's so cool. Okay, so quick recap of the race more generally, not my race. It was a faster first 40 miles, cool, way too cool trails, and they weren't that hot, even without deception. But it was fast, but I don't think it was, I mean, you and all the other people coming through were so comfortable. So I don't think it went out too fast, and that was the reason why so much of the top field imploded. I think it was just the conditions and nature of the day. Oh yeah, I think- Plus the fact there's very few crew eight stations, and I think that was actually a game changer for a lot of people. Yeah, and the trails were faster. And I think basically, if you went through people that did the race, probably 95% of them would have said they'd be in after blew up, you know, in some way, in managed blowups. So for men, Cole Watson ran an incredible race. He ran so well. Yeah. I got to run with him for a good so good. I actually said to him at one point, I was running right behind him in second, and I was just like, you know what, he's a really sexy. Did you say that? I was trying to give him like a uplifting thing that would make him laugh and pop him out. He was popping off the ground. Yeah. I didn't look too close at his legs. To be fair to you, but he was really popping. Well, I wasn't really looking at his legs either. I was just trying to think of something that would be uplifting and make him be like, oh, yeah, I am sexy or whatever, you know, because I knew he was going to have a great day, and I really wanted him to. And I always try to help racers out there with whatever random thing I can. But what he said is his partner loves the podcast. Oh, I didn't realize that. And so he can't wait to tell his partner that I said his legs were sexy. I love that you're trying to help racers. I would not do the same if I was racing. Oh, you wouldn't? I mean, I'd be nice to them and kind to them, but I wouldn't tell them they're sexy. Why is she doing whatever I could to do to help? Well, I mean, you know. Be like, you're breathing heavy. Do you need some help? Yeah. Is that a heart attack I think? I should probably stop at that. You should get that checked out. No, you wouldn't. You would actually, you would really uplift. And I think that... Well, I would tell him, good job, but I don't think I would go out of the way to be like, yeah. Yeah. I'm a little bit more like... You're a killer. Yeah, you're a great way. It's why you're a champion and I'm a fifth placeer. And then Adam Mary. Oh my God. Second place golden ticket to Western states. His story is the most inspiring shit on the planet. He has put in the work for many years. And I think it's one of those overnight successes are actually years in the making situations where he has faced ups and downs and kept grinding and kept believing in himself and investing in himself and trusting his own instincts. And to see him do this, it's like, holy shit, not surprising, but also one of those moments that gives you chills and makes you ask what is possible if I just put my head down in belief. And as a new father to... Yeah, new father? A black athlete. He's done a ton in terms of improving diversity for sport. And he's had challenging races, like at the World Championships, I think he had a challenging race. And he bounced back. Like sometimes the World Championships like suck the energy out of elite athletes. Definitely. Because you go there and people are like, it's so competitive. And there's so many people have so much talent that you go there. And it's like, what's happening right now? And to see him rebound after that, I thought it was a really neat thing. Well, we talked on the podcast about how a listener emailed us and said, you know, there were no black athletes in the top 10 of ultra running the year yet again. Like where are my role models to do this? And I would like to say, Adam Mary, watch out for that top spot maybe. I mean, at this point, Oh yeah. Chuck and I win. Second at Canyon's 100K, going to Western States. He's definitely gonna be top 10. You might be looking at the podium or even top of that list. And that makes me so happy. He's a great human and he deserved everything of this. And then Justin Grenewold and David Laney were in third and fourth. All three of them passed me in my really rough forest. And all of them were, especially Adam and Justin, they didn't really get to interact with David because that happened in the aid station where I was vomiting. But Adam and Justin, well Adam was like, Jean-Gell, you need anything? Which was really cool. That's nice. And then Justin's like, David, I'm just so proud of you for being out here as a new dad. Oh. These Justin, like they actually gave us our little bassinet that we use. They gave us a snoo. Yeah. That's a great gift. Yeah. So it was just really fun. I think there's a lot of love being flown out there and they were all such great athletes. Well, it was actually interesting because as the day was unfolding, the tracker wasn't working. Yeah. And so Justin's tracker wasn't even on there. So people didn't even recognize. Like I think the race played out so differently when you're watching it in person compared to if you were tracking it online. And your tracker not working gave me lots of anxiety because it said you were stuck in an aid station for like 50 minutes. And this was after you had your aid station moment and I fully believed it. Maybe it was like the ghost comment you made earlier. My spirit was stuck in the aid station. My corporeal bottle body went forward, barely, slowly. But my spirit stayed drinking that sweet, sweet knack. The tracker was only looking at your soul. Yeah, you said that knack saved your race. It did. Yeah. Because I ran out of watch lights. Alters are wild. I mean, it is so strange. I'm so used to urgency in races. And then you get to an aid station and you're just like, okay, I'm just drinking now. Give me a handful of potato chips. It's such a cool experience. Okay, so for women hiding this real quick, Eda Nelson, one of the best ever in the sport, she won, ran an incredible race. It is so fun to see her back on the scene and rocking it. She's rebounding after a bone stress injury, I think. She had a tough day at Black Canyon. And to come back, Alters are tough. And I feel like you have to navigate dark forests at some point to come back and really crush it. And she did that. It was so cool. And she won the 50-mileer that Megan did. And when Megan did North Face and absolutely excelled there, Eda was the winner. So it's kind of cool to see how she's evolved over that time. She's had a great long career, which is nice. And honestly, the women imploded a lot less than the men. I think that happens consistently in a number of ultras. And I'm not sure, I mean, women historically, like research shows they're better paces. I don't know if it's pacing, mental toughness. Women actually, given their hormonal profile, sometimes are better in heat. So I don't know what it is, but they imploded a lot less than you guys. Yeah, I mean, at this race, I don't necessarily think it was pacing because like my heart rate was low. I think most others were too. I mean, I think it might just be better management, strategic movement. And also physiology that might be slightly more geared to it, you know, with like lip and metabolism and things like that. But also maybe they're just absolute bad SPs, you know, like. That's my theory. I mean, I think that there are 15 women that ran better races than I did. In terms of like, you know, I was fifth for men, but I think if we, if there was some sort of gender equalization method, you know, it wouldn't have been fit. It would have been way back. Well, there's a number of women in the top 10 overall. Yeah, exactly. Well, there's really high DNF rates. So in the 100 mile, there was like a 55% DNF rate. And then the 100K, 27% DNF rate. I'd be curious to look at the percentages of those that were men versus women. Yeah, that would be really interesting. Yeah. I mean, it was fine. And actually DNFs of ultras and general men versus women. And DNFs are never, I mean, I'm not about death before DNF. Like if you were really. You weren't the mile 58 station. You were not dying. You didn't know that. I thought I was. I thought I was so scared. I knew you weren't dying. You were fine. Well, you didn't know, Megan, I came into the aid station. And at one point, I just remember violently shaking in front of you, being unable to do anything. And you're just like, that's fine. You're just like that. You were just a little cold. I was just a little cold. Well, I just showered you an ice. I hated the ice bandana. You're like, there's a ghost that's trying to strangle me right now. And it's a cold ghost. So I did kindly remove the ice bandana for you. I felt like a failure as a crew chief. But no, I mean, I feel like you were fine. I think my exact quote when you put the ice bandana on me is you're strangling me with a cold, weak bitch or something. I wasn't really being too early coherent, but I was still trying to make jokes. Second for women was Priscilla 4G, someone in SWAT, Poohy Coach, who's an absolute superstar. Can't wait to see what she does in the future. And she's coming from Canada, which is cold, and she's coming from Edmonton, Canada, which isn't particularly hilly either. So it's kind of fun to see how people excel in different geographic locations. And she lost her luggage, or airport lost her luggage before the race to buy everything, and just went out there fresh. Kind of like it. It's like a great way to clear the mechanism. Arowa CIO was third anima canna fourth Addie Bracey fifth. Mary Bowman, shout out to her. She was tied for sixth, one of her athletes. She tied for sixth? They think the Cross of the Finish line together. Oh, that's cool. Isn't it cool? I love that. Yeah. I feel like if you spend a lot of race, someone like you spent a lot of the race with Sebastian Speller. And you had a, what sounds like a total bromance out there? Did you tell him he was sexy? No, because there's a language barrier. But we did share. I mean, sexy, I think, crosses languages. OK, so for listeners, maybe the class of the field in terms of historic results with Sebastian Speller, he's been top finisher at a bunch of international races. And so my thinking with, if the race worked out well, is like running with him would have been a really good guidance for the right way to run this. We're smart. Yeah, I agree. And so that was a very smart of you. We made a little break. Yeah. Accidentally, it wasn't intentional. But then I was just, OK, I'm just going to stay on his wheel. And it was very fun. It was so fun. And we were just in the forest together, just silent in the middle of nowhere. And with a language barrier, just calling out things on different sides. And then I still didn't want to ruin his race, because I'm like, OK, this guy's at a different level than me, or a different class of athlete, at least an ultra distance. No, no. Yeah. We got to practice putting that sentence first. You were just objectively with what he's achieved in ultra. So I've achieved on shortlist. OK, but your capability and your physiology is at that level. OK, OK, OK. Thank you. But I had to go to the bathroom, do a number two. And so I stopped. And when he heard me stop, he stopped with me. What a gentleman. I don't know if he worked. Maybe he has a thing. No, but he stopped for me and said that we couldn't hear running together. And it was one of the coolest moments. I was like, wow, what a great sport that one of the best athletes in it would do this. And he went on to actually, he fought. And he had a really tough day. But he still finished in 17th place or something, which for an athlete that easily could have DNF'd, and then got into another race and probably one glaparato or something. It's just really cool, really inspirational. And I think there are a lot of stories like that out there. Well, I'm proud of your finish. But I might be even more proud of you that one of the greats in our sport stopped for you to take a shit. Yeah. That's a big life achievement. It was a three second poop. I'm even more proud of you. Yeah. Yeah. We're just stacking layers of pride. I've packed the Megan Road style. But the finishing hand-in-hand tie thing. Yeah. I love that. You know, I did that last year, a quick silver with Chris Myers, one of her athletes. But here's what I think the killer Megan might do. I lean. Yeah. That's right. I put stick my small ass boobs out there and be like, I got this. You know, they say one by a nose. It's like she won by a nipple. Yep. A really pointy nipple that's been through a lot of pumping devices. That's why you pump. It's just like, yes. To win by a pointy nipple. You pump for that centimeter of nipple length that gets you the win. That's perfect. OK. And then the final really big global observation from this event is, holy shit, I'm like crying right now thinking of your wall and pointing nipples. But also the inspiration from athletes out there. Because in the context of this race, we got to run through the back of, well, one at one point, we got to see most of the 100k race in like a loop fashion. So tons of listeners out there. And at that point in the race, I was actually coherent. So I was able to say things like, I love you, Hazah, woohoo, things like that. It was so meaningful to get all your messages. Thank you. But later in the race, when I was a little less coherent, we ran through the back of the 100 Millers who were on like our 30 of their race and the 50k racers who were on our eight or nine at times. And it was the coolest thing I've ever seen. Like to see the race, I've seen it at eight stations and things. But to see it in practice, how many people were out there working for every second of the race when they were chasing cut offs or hoping to finish their first 50k or gosh, the 100 Millers. It was like, I was so in the moment getting chills. And I was running down a long hill at one point. This was after things turned around. And I started to feel amazing again. And I was like, holy shit, I wish I felt like this, the whole race. And I was getting teary, not about my own race, but about everyone else out there just pushing themselves in this way. And I was like, oh my god, the magic of the sport is not the winners, even though those make for good narratives and it makes things clean clean, like clean, so we can talk about them. It's like, the people out there that are going for it every second they can. It's like, that's why we do this shit. That's why we talk about physiology and talk about the community and uplifting yourself and all this other stuff. So if you're one of those people that ever does that, whether it's the front of the pack or the back, oh my god, we love you. Hell yes. It's wild what people are doing out there. So I navigated health challenges that made me think that I might not be able to race again, and I'm glad to be back out racing. But my plan B was just to go to races and plant myself there and just absorb the stories and memories and the stuff that was happening because I feel like there's this huge inspiration life bump that comes from that. And people that are out there a long time, I mean, you raced hard, but we were eating the Nick the Greek French rise at home at 5 p.m. And thinking about people that were out in the course for a long time, like, that's hard. Yeah. It was so great. I mean, and it was also just really fun to share moments. So if you're out there, you probably, there were moments where, so I was trying to say something to everybody, but I couldn't at times. And instead, what I like we've talked about, hazah is such a magical phrase because it's an exhale. So if you say it at the top of the hill, it really works. So usually it's hazah. But at a certain point, it became this hazah. And a few listeners really understood what I was going through based on the pitch of my hazah. And for you all, you got a collector's edition. I hope that you don't see that at too many more races in the future. They'll be full-throated, hazah. I'm pretty sure hazah is going to be our dying breath, but like, hazah. OK. OK, so one last takeaway that I really wanted to mention is on my electrical discovery. So we've talked to you on here about the reason I thought I was going to DNF, or had a very high chance before Meghan got me in the mindset of not doing that. I had a full-scale intervention. Yeah. Yes. Exactly. Was that I struggled with cramps. And we've also talked about the science of cramps before, and that how it could be related to glycogen pools in the muscles, or simply endurance, or strength, or whatever. But one of the things that the research indicates is not the cause, but everyone says anecdotally is a cause, is electrolyte consumption. So primarily salt, but also other things. And out there, I started to have little crampy cramps. Crampy cramps? Well, they're crampy cramps because they're just like, I felt the flutter. You've never really dealt with them. The speculations. Yeah, yeah. They're like little muscle-fisty collisions. I could actually see them. So you came into, and I could tell you were about to cramp because I saw you come into mile 51, and your muscles were fissiculating. Your quads were just rhythmically moving back and forth. Exactly. And so what I did out there is once I felt this, it was early, it was like mile 15, I took three Google electrolyte tabs, and within three minutes they went away. And then it would start again 20 minutes later, and then it would take three again. And I kept doing this, and it totally held them off. And not only did it hold them off, I felt great. And it wasn't until I ran out and made some management decisions that weren't great. So what I did is I came into the aid station at mile 40 when I was still in perfect position, right where I wanted to be, and felt okay. But I'd run out of the electrolyte pills and I'd started to feel the cramps come on again. And I started dipping watermelon in salt, because it's all they had. They didn't have electrolyte pills in the aids. And I think I totally messed up the intake. I think I- You overdid it? It overdid it massively, and it totally dysregulated my body. And so cramps and nessus weren't the huge problem after that, is that I just felt so fucking weird. So I learned for myself that I think I do have a strategy now to avoid cramps, especially in these hot conditions, that I never would have predicted. But I also learned that I need to take more electrolyte pills with me on the race when there aren't crew spots to get more. Well, you had an entire bottle with you, and you came back with an empty bottle, and I'm like, you dumb, dumb, you're like, you spilled them on the trill and not like, stop to pick them up, because I fully- You've done that before. So I was like, oh, he just didn't bother to pick them up. I didn't know you consumed the entire bottle. You had like, quarters quantities of electrolyte pills. Yeah. I mean, people were scrounging around in the trunks of their cars to be like, what do we have between the seats to give to David? I would have licked between the seats. Yeah. There's some good salty goodness there. She had licked Sebastian Speller. Yeah. Yeah. That would have been pretty good. Yeah. I should ask him to lick me. He's French. He would know how to do it. But I think that this is a really interesting place. And my guess is that there are mechanisms there that get smoothed out in the research, because it takes specific types of physiology to have these issues. So if you're someone that really struggles with cramps, be careful, because this is not without danger, but try to overdo a little bit the electrolyte pills. So for me- Oh, be exceedingly careful with that. I'm having a coronary overhear, David. Be careful. Yes. What would you call my muscles? What were they doing? That's what your heart is doing. Yeah, it's not happy with that recommendation. Yeah, your idea of your career. Yeah. Follow the directions on electrolyte pills. But I think take the electrolyte pills by be willing to explore carefully. Be willing to explore. Be willing to explore. That's what's so cool about this. After you sign 18 waivers. Yeah. Don't do it on our account. Yeah. Yeah. Because we don't have enough insurance for that. But yeah, like for me, doing the normal amount did not cause a difference. Doing more than that caused a massive difference. You also finish races as a salted beef Wellington. So I think you're in a little bit of a different category, but we do see this with athletes. Like I think athletes that struggle with cramping and races like up the electrolytes and see what happens. Yeah, it was very cool. Okay. The last little reflection here on, should I do the drug testing reflection? Because that was actually kind of funny. Yeah, that is interesting. Yeah. So cool news about these races. They had usada drug testing before the race. Which is great. Not for every athlete, but I think I'm not sure how they decided who we get tested. But I got tested and... Which was an honor. They had top athletes and I'm like David, they believe in you. Yeah. What happened is, so they did this blood spot or dry spot test or something where they stick something into your shoulder. And so they did it on my right shoulder and not enough came out. So that was like the B sample. And then we did it on my left shoulder and I was like, okay, I need to make this work. It was like 100 degrees. I was getting anxious. And so I did all the things to put my arm under me and get it going. Pushed it into my shoulder and I must have really fucked this up because it spouted blood everywhere. Which is your nightmare. All over the table. Yeah. And my shoulder still hurts. I'm just touching it right now and it's like actively painful. More painful than my legs. So very cool, but also a little bit traumatic the day before the race. And also it was an interesting reflection because whenever I've gotten drug tested in the past, it's actually been a moment of anxiety for me because I'm so concerned with a contamination incident that you can't control. Yeah. Well, I feel like that's like you apply those contamination worries to all of life. Yeah. That's just how your brain works. And I feel like I'm just trying to get it. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. People have heard about the squirrel in my chest. Like that's been good for the most part recently. Or I mean, it's been great. You've learned how to manage it. Yeah. I don't really have it that much anymore, but I still do have worst case scenario anxiety. And what I always think about with, you know, doping tests is that it's kind of like getting audited except if getting audited meant your life was over. Yeah. You know, it's like, I tried to do everything right. I promise. So, and there was actually a really interesting article that came out to stoke my anxieties last week, which was in a 2023 research writer in the Journal of American Medical Association, which was titled quantity of melatonin and CBD and melatonin gummies sold in the US. And it found that 22 of 25 products were inaccurately labored and only three products contained a quality quantity of melatonin that was within 10% of the declared amount. Which is insane when you think about it. I think actually, I think researchers have known that for a long time that melatonin is this wild west of a supplement, but you take natures made melatonin three milligrams and it works well for you. Yeah. And so I was panicking. I was like, what else is in there? And all that. So that was an interesting experience. I think it's great for the sport and. But I think it's important for athletes to think about that all of their supplements are clean sport verified, especially like in these situations and in these scenarios. And I think did you declare athletic greens? So you can make there's a declaration form where you go through and list everything that you're taking and I was like athletic greens. I declared melatonin. I declared Leo's skin ointment, which was like, I was just thinking of everything. But yes, I declared athletic greens. And I think that's one reason that I'm actually not that stressed is because, you know, even with like, I know athletic greens is clean because everyone takes it. Yeah. Like we're almost everyone we coach takes it and they get tested all the time. And you know, everyone's clean. Everyone who walks on our door takes it. Yeah. Like, here you're walking in our door. Here's a packet. Yeah. You should try it. I might change your life. So athletic greens is a miracle maker. Like so much in there is not NSF certified sport outside of athletic greens. Like it's the only place you can get ashiraganda. It's wonderful for stress management, wonderful for adaptation. And I think it's one of the reasons I was able to step up in distance and manage all of these things. I swear by it. Absolutely. It's one of the first things I did after I finished the race and we got home because I was like, I'm going to need this to reduce inflammation. So athletic greens.com slash swap SWAP, S-W-A-P. It's safer sport and it really helps the body feel very good. Was it why you finished Londra K? It was the athletic greens, wasn't it? I think it was your love. Number one. Number two was NAC. And number three was athletic greens. And number four was Sebastian Sepwer. Sepwer. And his salt. And his licks or the imagination of his licks. And then another reflection is the power of just taking one step at a time. It's like I finished fifth at this race and I literally had 12 miles where I was just like felt like I was moving backwards. Or I think Leo in a year might be able to keep up with you for those miles. Yeah. I mean, he's coming to Lond athletically. It's just so interesting. It's just so interesting. But actually you were walking pretty fast. Yeah, but if you're doing ultras, like just keep moving. You know, just keep moving. It makes such a big difference through those low points and like, yes, my dream day fell out the window when that happened. But like it was still a dream day, you know? And it would have been dream day even if I finished like last. But or even if I didn't finish, but it meant so much to see that in practice and how it felt. Well, I love different runs where you travel through different ecosystems. So like in Hawaii, you're going through like, you can go through so many different ecosystems within one run. And sometimes in runs in California, we've had tons of runs. We've had tons of runs where you're like in a jungle and then you're in what feels like like this open meadow and a mountain. And it's fun to have those experiences. It's like sometimes in racing, it's like you go through different ecosystems as an athlete. And just because you're in one doesn't mean you're going to be stuck in that state, the entire race. And you prove that. It's like, you look like shit and then you didn't, you know? Yeah. No, I mean, what you said to me is this is normal. Yeah. As you would say to anyone at Western States, and I felt that like I was like, I've been there with you. I've been the one saying that. But you don't think it in the moment when you have an experience. And our amazing crew shout out to Teddy, who is the absolute best. Oh my God, he's the best. And he's a doctor too. I was like, I trust you with everything. Abby who crushed it. And then Leah Yangling, you know, top American at Western States last year and her partner, Mike at Shit in the Woods is his Instagram handle. He's an amazing photographer. They joined the crew at that aid station and they said to me, Mike said to me specifically, it's like, this is, you know, this is normal. But then also it's going to mean so much to people for you to get back on that course. Because you've helped so many people do that. And that's what made me be like, holy shit, this is such an opportunity because it wasn't a perfect day. And I can demonstrate that like, I practice what I preach with digging deep, not because of results, but because you're going to, you know, it's going to mean something more than just whatever activity you're doing. Right. And so thank you all. Like, I mean, it's literally like what Mike said was just channeling me into thinking about the people out there that care about this, whether even if they don't care about me, just care about the sport, care about athletics, care about like living your life fully and getting the full experience. And nothing else. I got the full fucking experience and I'm so happy I did. And you did it. And I think what I find like curious about you is that you often identify more as a coach than an athlete. Oh, 100,000 percent. Yeah. And I don't know if you heard this when you were finishing. I think you're a little bit out of it and making sure that Leo's head didn't back to the ground as you carried across the finish line. But the way that they announced you was David Roach is finishing. They said a lot of nice things and they also say you were coach of the stars. I think it's kind of cool because this was one race in which your coach and athlete, like separate personas actually came together because I felt like you doing that as an athlete actually fed into coaching and fed into like all the different people that you've talked into these races and talked, talked into like keeping going at these races. I was like, wait a second, I'm missing a wire. I have done that. No, I really have done that too. And yeah, I mean, it was so many folks. Also great swap day, which meant a lot of us getting updates on the course from people. And actually a quote from an athlete in their training log that has nothing to do with this race that I want to leave with on this general subject before one more discussion on something a little bit different. You know what's crazy? April 2023 was my biggest month, mileage-wise, of my whole life. I can't even tell you how many people have tried to get me to do quote less these last 20 years. This is a 50 plus year old female athlete when it's exactly the opposite of what is currently making me thrive physically and spiritually. After decades of being told my arthritis is a factor or that I'm quote injury prone or quote not built for this, it's pretty frickin' validating. I am so proud of myself. Thank you. And that's why we do it, you know, is not because like there's a race out there. Though that's a fun motivator and it leads you to places and pushing yourself in ways you might never do otherwise. But because it can be so fucking validating, so fucking life affirming to give yourself these opportunities that you never would in normal life. So if you're a listener and you don't do alters, great, do something that challenges you. And it doesn't have to be running, but do something that is so scary that you are almost positive. Your dad gives you an 80% chance that you're going to DNF, the person that believes in you more than anyone in the world, and then, you know, your partner's out there pushing you. And then all these other people out there giving you, you know, this inspiration because I think you'll learn more about yourself and more about life in that process than you ever will, you know, staying in the safe lane. Well, that quote that you just read in the sentiment that you shared reminds me so much of the book Run Towards the Danger, which is one of my all time favorite books. And I feel like sometimes people don't allow you or they don't give you the energy to run towards the danger and like find the people in life to that give you the tailwind to run towards the danger or in your case, like just relentless forward progress towards the danger. Don't have to be running. Just has to be like some sort of movement. Yeah, there's one moment where this is so different. My usual race strategy is just go, go, go. And I dropped my little packet of my empty goo packet and I went back to grab it 100 meters because it's just like, you know what, I don't want to litter. I'm not going fast right now anyway. So I shouldn't be a person that litters. Whereas normally I would just be like, fuck that, I'm gone. Even as an environmentalist. Yeah, exactly. That was actually another interesting thing is like GI system. When I talk about vomiting, the big ash gels worked amazingly. But because there wasn't any crew spots, I ran out of big ash gels and switched my feeling practices. And as soon as I put some fuel, a specific type of fuel in my throat, I retched and I never understood exactly what that felt like until I went through it. And it points out that in the future, no matter what, I don't care if I'm going to need to carry like an actual like hikers backpack to carry all the shit that works for me. Which is what I told you. I know, man. I told you I was like, David, you need to run with a pack and you're like, I'm not running with a pack. I'm going to pack all this UTMB required gear in my waist belt. I'm like, you're going to need something in a, in a, yeah. But I looked like a sexy sleek ghost. You did look really sleek. With a very, very small waist belt. It worked. It worked. It worked. Yeah. All that mattered is this photos were good. He's been Mike helping us and he's such a good photographer that he can make. He probably took 7,000 photos and got two that worked. Well, do you know what Mike said? When you left, he was like, he better finish this race because these photos are too good. Which is the ultimate Mike comment and I respected it so hard. Okay. So a little, a little aside here, this is on Janice on Santa Cuba who is a player for the Milwaukee Bucks. Such a good player. Yeah. He's been a good human. He's been a good fan of the MVP and the Bucks were the top seed in the Eastern Conference in NBA. They actually lost in the first round. Very rare for a top seed. And Janice who has this amazing history. He grew up in Greece and was not expected to ever like, you know, it would be basically no one in his cohort of where he grew up ever amounted to, you know, NBA player or anything like that. There was no model for him and he was called the Greek freak became this absolute superstar. And he seems like an incredible person and he had this amazing quote in the press conference. Um, after, uh, I couldn't hear the question that was asked, but here's his response. Oh my God. You asked me the same question last year, Eric. Okay. Do you get a promotion every year in your job? No, right? So every year you work is a failure? Yes or no? The answer is no. Every year you work, you work towards something towards a goal, which is to get a promotion to be able to take care of your family, provide a house for them or take care of your parents. You work towards a goal. It is not a failure. It's all a step to success. I don't want to make it personal. There's always steps to it. Michael Jordan played 15 years, one six championships. The other nine years were a failure. That's what you're telling me. I'm asking you a question. Yes or no? Exactly. So why, why are you asking me that question? It's the wrong question because there is no failure in sports. There are good days, bad days. Um, and so those bad days help you give day, help you give the opportunity to be successful. And even though some days you won't be, some days it's your turn, some days it's not your turn. That's what sports is always about. You don't always win. So other people are going to win. Simple as that. We're going to come back next year, try to be better, try to build good habits, try to play better and I can't wait. It's such a good quote. What I was curious about that was there was pushback against that. Yeah. NBA. They're like, he's not a killer. He's not of that mindset, but it's like, no, this guy is like, I feel like he has that Michael Jordan mindset and it's just manifested in a slightly different way. But that's like what allows him to succeed. And this type of mindset is what gave him the ability to be the best in the world. Right? Like it's all about those subtle changes. And there's a reason that he resigned with Milwaukee as opposed to going to some bigger market team. He identifies with this idea of a long term process and the meaningful of that, meaningful in this of that, not having to do with a championship ring. And I think it's one of the reasons that the way we talk about sports, whether it's basketball or baseball, and I see this creeping into running and it scares me is only, celebrating wins and everything else being like, that isn't necessarily a success or separating like front of the pack versus back of the pack as different experiences. And yes, that in some ways that type of professionalization is okay. And I think it's something to uplift. But I think the big key is understanding that everyone is on this similar journey. And the success is in being on the journey and trying to turn those, you know, subtle changes of self-worth of how you view the community, all that in a positive direction. And I think the nuance about running compared to things like baseball or soccer is there's, I think in the Canyons race, there is like 375 people out there and only one person is going to win. And it's, I mean, I think that's actually great because I think it allows people to set different expectations outside of that. But you know, and basketball it's 50-50, you know? Yeah, exactly. Just such a wild experience, this thing of sports. Okay, so let's do a little bit of a transition. Talk about some other topics real quick and then get some cool Patreon questions. How do you think about that? Let's do it. This was the first week we've ever missed a Patreon podcast. Yeah. We've done 52 weeks, including when I was like giving birth to Leo and all of that, but you got drug tested on Friday. It was like a long day for us. I had no blood in my body because it was all on the table. Yeah. And it was like 5 p.m. And I'm like, David, let's not get you hyped. Let's not do a Patreon podcast. So the first time we've ever missed, it was good reason. And people were so supportive on there. They're like, yeah, you probably shouldn't have done it today. So what a perfect time to subscribe because we have all of these built up episode 52 by 30 to 35 minute episodes answering questions every single week. Basically, everything you could ever want to know is on one of those podcasts about running and also life and other things, patreon.com slash swap SWAP. We also do bonus podcasts there. And it's a way to support the podcast. Thank you so much for everything over the last year. It is a very cool venue. It's fun and good people to engage with too. I mean, I've heard I actually had an athlete that came up to me at the race and they met someone else through our Patreon. Whoa. Yeah, just they were coming back and forth. They connected offline and they went for a run together. It's so cool. Yeah. Well, we still need to do that swap singles. Oh, yeah, that would be fun. We got some good personal ads in. But then I felt a little uncomfortable because I was like, well, what if something bad happens and it's caused by our person? Yeah. You know? Yeah. So I don't know. What if they're salt looking at each other? Yeah. That would make me really happy. Yeah. This would just become a personal podcast if I knew everybody would be looking. Be like, get those electrolytes. That would be our tagline for the swap singles. Yeah. Okay, first thing. The US Mountain Champs with this weekend, as we talked about, briefly just want to highlight. Grace's performance. Absolutely insane. She was a double champion. She won the uphill race and the up-down race the next day. You should go look at her Strava. Maybe the best performance in female mountain running history. I don't want to think people are talking about it nearly enough. Almost because Grayson has made it routine, but she's just improving, improving, improving and it is wild. What I thought was bonkers too is, I mean, she ran really fast and Grayson has the capabilities. We know this to run darn fast. She's run fast half marathons on courses that are not conducive to running fast half marathons. But Grayson looked like such an athlete out there. He was wild. Watching her bomb down these downhills was a thing. I mean, it was a thing of poetry and motion. It's a really specimen of an athlete to combine the athleticism with the overall running speed that she has. Yeah, so go follow her. I don't think there's that much more to say other than your witness saying, I think, probably the goat in a time. She's just getting started. It's almost like a player coming into the NBA and just winning five championships. One thing I've talked to Grayson about on the phone is, you're going to not do this forever. You're not going to win forever, even though I think she's the best ever. I'm pretty sure she could run down a hill like that at 85. Yeah. What I mean is, Grayson's going to inspire some young girl that is going to beat Grayson. That's how good Grayson is. She is the Michael Jordan that gives way to the Kobe Bryant or whatever your frame of references. I was trying to be like, okay, how are we going to respond to that when it happens? You're so good right now and your level is so insane that you're going to raise the bar in ways that we can't foresee. It's wild to have that level of an athlete in our sport right now. I just want to make sure she is fully appreciated in the moment because not only is she this type of athlete, she's a wonderful person that really makes herself vulnerable and shows how you can do this stuff, have a killer mindset on the course, but not be the type of person that tears others down. She's evolved in that mindset. You've gotten to coach her now for several years. In that process, I just feel like we've seen this Grayson growth model of both as an athlete, but even honestly more so as her mindset, her mindset I think is even more beautiful than her downhill running prowess. I say that with the highest honor. Maybe you can interview her on the puck. I would love that. I don't want to tell her story. Honestly, I don't even know her whole story, but I didn't coach her for a year there. There was a break. Sometimes when she came back, it was really fun because sometimes when you're coaching someone, you can't really see the evolution because you're also in it the day with them. I saw the evolution of how she just changed. Same is that Grayson, but it changed. It's like, damn, this person is just, I'm inspired by her as the type of human I want to be. Follow Grayson everywhere that you can. Next up, this is a little aside. Not a sports thing, but we wanted to mention it because there were lots of Trader Joe's grocery stores in California. It feels like it's so inexpensive. It's such good vibes, but we learned some discouraging things about Trader Joe's. So we found from a tweet that they're required to give you a compliment about the food that you're buying. We thought we were just like, our food was just so good. Every time I went to Trader Joe's, I was like, okay, I'm pretty sure this checkout person wants to bang me right now. See, I had a different thought. They either want to bang me or they want to bang these mochi nuggets. Or both, or at the same time. So I'm not sure if it's a requirement or they're strongly encouraged, but if you've been to Trader Joe's and they always say, oh, I really like this thing, it's a thing they do. They also say, hey, have you tried this thing that I love? It's my favorite. And you always get it? Well, I had no idea I was being manipulated, but like... You come home with some of this string just stuff. I'm like, where is this coming from? And I'm like, it must be the cashier. Have you tried this obscure Asian dip? Have you tried these mochi rice nuggets, which were actually worth it? All these other things, and I always am sprinting out to get this thing because I'm like, if they're selling it like that, they don't have to do that. They want to bang me and they want to put this in my mouth. I should try it. So that was a pretty sad realization, but we still like Trader Joe's. I think it's still authentic. It's still authentic. It's still on a banging. Everyone wants to bang you. Okay. No, definitely not true. Especially after what I did with that bomb session after taking that gel. Okay, next up, this is a piece of news that you might have heard about. And I think maybe a little bit slightly different take than you might have heard, but maybe not. Colin Chardier is a professional triathlete. We actually met him briefly. He's a great guy and person from what we understand, brief passing. He just shows... Very briefly. Yeah. But it just shows all people have their redeeming qualities and also ghosts in their closet. And his particular ghost was a really bad one. Well, his particular ghost was powered with dope. Yeah, some dope. So he was EPO positive in November 2022 when he was tested out of competition test. And this was after his year where he really burst onto the scene as a triathlete and became one of the best in the world, one $100,000 prize in that process. So it's a really big news because EPO positives and triathlon are pretty rare. I can't really remember one off top of my head. EPO is a big screw you in the ash drug in terms of it changes the game. Yeah, you're not just like... That's not... Exactly. You're not... Exactly. Your substance is... Your substance says are not. Your melatonin doesn't contain EPO. There's nothing on the fence about EPO use. They're... Their labs have messed up, but this is not a case of that. He admitted to it. And I don't necessarily want to make a comment about the sport more generally or his admission or the veracity of those statements because we don't know. But what I do think is interesting is that in the context of taking EPO, we don't know exactly what the timeline was. I don't think it's necessarily something we should take his word on. And he became the best in the world, which I think is a cause for hope in the sense that if an athlete can take EPO and become the best in the world when they weren't before, it probably means that the best in the world are like... Or like it's not a huge pool of people that are doping. In some ways that gives me hope in the sense that if someone doped and became 12th place, you'd be like, oh fuck, what does that mean about everybody else? So does that make any sense to you? No. I think you're just gullible. Yeah. Well, one, when you think it's great, you try to find... You try to see the goodness in people. You're trying to see the goodness in college right? And the goodness in sport too. Meanwhile, I'm more cynical. I'm like, there's probably a significant percentage of people at the top of sports just statistically that are doing this and we need a better path towards clean sports. So, yes and no. So I see your point, but I think I'm a little bit more like, don't fool me. Yeah, but don't fool me for sure. But I guess I want to assume everything's cleaner than maybe the cynics might say. Yeah. Well, maybe that's what you need to... I mean, I think it's very frustrating as a top athlete in sport to have that. And maybe that's what you need to get to the starting line to be like, I stand a chance. But also, I mean, Grayson, absolutely clean. Yeah. I think Char running actually is pretty clean. But Grayson is also one of the best in the world and track too. Yes, yeah. And he is absolutely clean. Yeah. And so, I think it points out that anyone that's super skeptical about sports, you can still be a huge fan. You don't have to even hold, I think, this really negative association with doping in top-level professional sports. I think that for the most part, people are trying to do it the right way. And sometimes people mess up. Yeah. And then, it's going to serve a long-term band. He's probably never going to compete again. But in those mistakes, even, as always, compassion. Yeah. Because, like, you know, calling is a human. And the sport needs to have firm accountability in all of these rules and, you know, good riddance for now, calling. But, you know, as people process it, like, continue to give people love because everyone deserves it, even those that make decisions that are not deserving of it. Yeah, and I think you can still be a skeptic and still soak in and absorb all of the, like, really empowering stories because probably 99% of them are true. And I think until the handed evidence of the contrary, that's when I, like, draw the line. But I think there is, like, a healthy skepticism still as you think about all the sport. What I do think, and sorry, we can edit this out if you think so, but Colin was coached by a coach that was prominently coaching Norwegian athletes. Yeah. But I do think that as we talk about systems of training and models of training, we do need to think about, like, what is the input? And if athletes are following these models of training and they're inputting EPO as part of that, yeah, the results are going to be really different. So we've talked a lot about, on here, about Norwegian training. And there's no evidence to think that they're doping besides the fact that this coach was working with. I think it was an independent situation. But I just, I think we just need to be, have a healthy level of skepticism about the input that we're putting into all of training models. Yeah. That's a great point. So, I think that is totally fucked if the causes of variation amongst athletes are not the theory. Yes. Yeah. So one of the, I mean, it could be genetics, let's say. So if you have an N equals one outlier that's the best in the world, you're not going to learn much from looking at their training necessarily because their genetics are totally different. But if a model that the N equals one works for a bunch of people, that can be helpful. But it's the model that works for a bunch of people involved EPO, and it's fucking useless. And it's something that, you know, I learned so much about biking training theory after I quit football as that sprinter from Lance Armstrong's book. And it's like, oh yeah, it's like reading a manual on how to be a fast thoroughbred. Yeah. It's like reading a manual on how to be a win the Kentucky Derby. Yeah, right. It's like not going to help my running training or my cycling training. So I think that is important in understanding any elite training system and also understanding how it applies across different genetic profiles, not just different like, you know, maybe substance profiles. That's a broader proxy for life too, because you never know, I think it's so much in life, you never know like the full input that's being put into a model. Yeah, definitely. Okay, you're ready for some questions? Yeah, let's do it. Let's do it. We have two amazing ones here that I think will apply to everyone. So this is on fueling guidance for advanced athletes. Advanced athletes, isn't it? Don't we like consider everyone on here to be advanced athletes? Yes, everyone is advanced. That is an important caveat. But I mean, like if you're doing two by 30 minute, like hikes per week, this might not necessarily apply because it's just not relevant. So if you're like pushing your own personal limits, yes. Pushing your own personal limits, especially when you start to talk about getting over an hour pretty consistently, that's when you need to start thinking about this. And it comes from a question from a pro athlete actually about fueling daily runs. So we've done this essentially a podcast series on fueling and some of the theories behind it. Which I would say all the episodes in our podcast have some element of fueling. Yes. We eventually talk about mochi rice nuggets. Oh, yeah, exactly. Oh my God. And the big ass gels that I've been talking about from precision, they worked so well until I ran out. I really wonder how my race would have been different if there was one more crew stop where I could have gotten precision and electrolytes. It would have maybe been a little bit different. Granted, you found some precision hiding in your fuel belt at the end. Oh my God. How did I miss it? I know if you were in a pack, if you were in a backpack, they would have been right there. Oh my God. This is heartbroken. And that actually points out a little bit that like even when I mean, I'm thrilled, there's always regrets that you have. Yeah. I'm sure even the winners have some moments that what the fuck was I thinking on this kind of where I'm at. Okay. I wanted to give this is going to be a breakdown with four different guidelines to pay attention to. The first is that purely easy run between 60 and 90 minutes. Keep it simple and optional gel between 40 and 60 minutes. That's all you have to do. And this is just talking about the calories, not the hydration necessarily, but always have that optional gel on you. Even if you don't think you need it, you might find that taking this gel is not necessarily about performance or need. You can definitely do this without it. This is a question of keeping the fire burning hot, keeping your adaptation rate going and improving your body's endurance over time. I think that adaptation for me is the inspiration to take it often because it's like, I'm going to feel better the next day. Oftentimes if we're recording a podcast, I'll take a gel on that run because I know I need to be mentally primed. So I mean, if you have big life things coming after runs, feel that too because why not? You might feel better. And a little bit of a caffeinated gel can be a huge difference there. Oh, it's fun. Yeah. And so I would think try this. If you don't do it, if you go out on your eight to 10 mile or in you never feel, try a gel at 40 to 60 minutes on your purely easy days occasionally or every time. And you might notice a massive change. And then the second recommendation is for study runs. So runs that are Z2, Z3, perhaps even progressing into a little bit of Z4 depends on the nature and quality of the run. You can be burning more glycogen in this situation. So if you're running 60 to 90 minutes, I would think about a gel at 45 and a gel at 75. So having a little bit more fuel on the body, both, this is a little bit more for performance because it will help performance, but then also for recovery and adaptation as well. Yeah. As we talked about it on here, as the body gets low on glycogen, as that fuel tank goes down, the body down regulates your performance without you even realizing it long before you bonk. So you want to keep those levels full. And when you're doing a steady run, keeping those levels on board will only help your fat oxidation. So there's no reason not to do that. Like on a purely easy run, there are some rationalizations for male athletes where it's like, okay, occasionally not feeling it is okay. And especially for this listener that emailed in who's a pro male athlete, they've already developed the system. They don't need to think about that. Some male athletes might too, especially people that are early starting out. But if you're pushing a little bit on your 60 to 90 minute run, gel at 45, gel at 75 and always have them on you, even if you're not going to take them, it is key to get in that habit. Okay. Number three is a workout that is 60 to 90 minutes. Basically to look at it is an optional gel before. So you can do this either right before you run or after your warm up. Good GI training. Also just make sure that your glucose is topped off. And then I always like athletes and this is a place I've changed to take a gel right after their workout if they can or some sort of fuel source. So right after they finish their intervals before going into like a hold down. Yeah, before they're like two or three mile cooldown or whatever you do. Getting some calories on board right then can help the recovery process in ways that you don't really don't knock it until you try it. Like yeah, it makes a pretty big difference. I think when athletes are committed to this. Sometimes I've had some super slow shuffles cooling down and usually I can avoid that. I mean, it's nice to do that sometimes, but sometimes they're by necessity and a gel before we'll help that a ton. It's a huge difference. Okay. And then the fourth one is a quality long run over 90 minutes. Quality here essentially means anything where you're not just going purely slow or slow for you. The rule there is basically what we're talking about in races to a gel every 20 to 30 minutes starting at 45 minutes. If you're aiming for higher fuel intakes, what we've talked about in the podcast, 20 minutes, if you're aiming for just a consistent long run that isn't fuel training, 30 minutes is fine. And do this and it'll be massive. This is the place that's most important is on these long runs. This is when the breakdown happens, when the endocrine impacts happen. If you can do this, you're going to feel so much better. You're going to get injured less. You're going to adapt more. That's exactly where I was going with injury is I feel like if you're struggling with constant little injuries, try this and try feeling your long runs and your workouts a little bit more and see what happens. We've seen it be game changing for some athletes. Absolutely huge. Yeah. So, you may have noticed that we said nothing under an hour. You can always have a gel at that point, but it's not probably physiologically needed unless you're under fueling more generally. So you probably don't have to worry about it there. Unless you're doing specific gut training. So we talked about on podcasts where athletes struggle feeling like they're absorbing things or just struggle to take in jowls and you can always practice on runs. Yeah. And then the other one is a very, very easy long run over 90 minutes. So let's say you're going out, you're essentially doing a high jog or running with someone that is a good bit less fast than you, something like that. You can do a gel every 30 to 45 minutes starting around an hour. So essentially less of a density of it taking in a few fewer calories because you're burning so much fat relative to glycogen, there's no need to excessively replace it on that run or you might actually finish the run and not even be in it. You might not even be burning anything, which is fine, but there's just no need to do it on every run. Though you can if you want. I'm so excited about where gels and goos and all these different things are evolving. I've been a big fan of liquid, liquid gels recently. I love them and they're so, I like actually look forward to them. And I went back to taking like a more traditional style type of gel in a race and it was actually a little jar into my body. Yeah. I think everything needs to be a lot less viscous. Yeah. After my experience that I had where I had uncontrollable retching, which had like that is not my personality. It's not your personality. That's physiology. Yeah. But my point being like, I'm not the type of person, oh, that doesn't taste good. I'm not going to eat it. Like you could give me a gel packet full of crap. And if you told me it was what I needed, I could get it down. Oh, you for sure. From a mental perspective. Yeah. If the Trader Joe's person told you it, you'd be like, I'd make love for this gel of shit. There's feces in aisle two. I would be sprinting to grab that chocolate covered feces. But yeah, so like, you know, it was an uncontrollable physical response. And it kind of points out, okay, we need, I think companies need to start thinking about this because that is not a unique experience to me. Yes. Yeah. And we've talked athletes through it and you just got to, you got to troubleshoot at that point. Yeah, I got to troubleshoot. And I did a poor job of that and I'll learn better for the next time. Okay. Next question. This is on lower volume training. I think it'll be our last question of the day, but I think it's a really important one. Hey guys, I have an episode topic. Is probably just a listener question. A good portion of your amazing content in science focuses on building fatigue resistance, easy volume for aerobic capacity and fueling and cushus for all day pounding and all your stuff. And that is all cool when I love it. But I bet many of your listeners don't have the training time for bigger volume. Let's say greater than five hours per week to be as competitive in those longer events. There's a ton of overlap, obviously, but I think that there might be an opportunity to go into detail sometime about any lower volume race train in slash training strategies for lactate speed on trails in the five to 20 K distances or in vertical kilometer stuff and how to maximize it without adding more cardio volume. Cheers. We do encounter this a lot. Yeah, definitely. I think there's actually tons of sneaky ways to get in like, we call it zone zero training and just like living life and accumulating training. And then even like sometimes like zone one training, I feel like you can accumulate in sneaky ways that aren't always training. Yeah. So let's say this listener saying less than five hours per week. That's totally great. That's actually a substantial amount of running. We still that's awesome. And even as we talk about optimizing performance, you can do lots of great things on this. The first thing that Megan's talking about is getting sneaky volume when you can that isn't related to what you're considering training. So examples would be take the stairs, walk or jog or bike when you could drive and take your calls while walking, walking fast. Yeah. Basically any amount will help build your midi-kondria and don't let those sexy gains go to waste. Yeah, bike commute get that mitochondria game. I think I mean, I think there is you tell ultra-nonsense and now we'll walk on a treadmill for 12 hours a day doing work. So there is like diminishing gains at some point, but like a little bit of this stimulus I think works really well. And just stay active throughout the day. You know, obviously within reason, Megan, if someone walks in the treadmill for 12 hours after hearing that advice, we got bigger fish to fry and they probably wouldn't be training under five hours a week to begin with. So I think that that's the first place. You can still build the midi-kondria and that aerobic capacity through other things that aren't don't feel like training. If you have kids, it's a great opportunity to do that. Make games with them that require you to be really active and play. I'm excited to go chastely around our backyard. It's going to be great. But I think the other thing to think about too is training intensity distribution. But we just talk about a lot of time in zone one and zone two in terms of like accumulating and stacking that easy component of training. But I think if you're time limited, bump a little bit of that up into zone two. Like get that biomechanical gains from it and you know, the aerobic and mitochondria gains too. Yeah. So we often talk about like this purely pyramidal training distribution. This relies on doing a pretty large amount of training volume because it's an aerobically based system. The aeromidal means is a really big bulk of 80 to 90% of training in zone one, which is in a three zone model. So that would be zone one and zone two and a five zone model. Some in zone two and a three zone model. So that's moderate zone three and zone four. And then just a little bit sprinkling at the top. And that doesn't really work if you're doing very low volume because your aerobically driven gains won't be optimized. So what you can do is make it a little bit more of a bulge in the middle to start. So instead of doing like a strictly polarized system where you're doing a lot of hard and a lot easy, you can do almost like a Norwegian threshold system where you're adding in a lot of your easy training being a little bit quicker in zone two, letting your heart rate get into zone three sometimes as long as it's efficient. Do that and you're probably going to optimize some of those aerobic gains. And so that also probably applies to athletes that are six, seven hours a week unless you're getting up to nine, 10, you probably don't need to worry about all of this zone one style easy stuff that we talk about. Like it's probably a little less important than sometimes just getting out there and pushing your aerobic system a little bit more. And then I think when we think about the nuances of the workouts, I think those can change a bit too. So I think a lot of times when we talk about here on the podcast, we talk about like very smooth controlled intervals. And those are great. But I think for athletes doing higher volumes, you can do higher volumes of those smooth controlled intervals and get benefit from it. But I think for an athlete that's time limited, spending a little bit more time thinking about like VVO to compared to lactate threshold and doing slightly faster, slightly harder intervals or even thinking about things like flow recoveries can be really helpful for like building building systems without necessarily having a lot of time. Yeah. And building the mechanical system too because athletes are never going to be the aerobic beast that they could be, right? More easy would be beneficial whether that's running or other sports, right? And this also goes for athletes that are listening that are 80 years old. Like you can still do higher volume if you can get make the time. If you can't, if you're not going to be in a aerobic beast, you have to be a mechanical beast and the mechanical adaptations as we talked about come from higher intensity work. So for these types of athletes like the VVO too, that means the intervals that you could sustain for let's say 10 to 20 minutes doing a higher quantity of those that we usually down downgrade within the context of training cycles, he'll repeat things like that. Also consider adding float recoveries. So between these faster intervals, keep your pace or your effort slightly elevated, kind of easy mods steady, which will optimize the aerobic demands of the whole session. And since you're volume limited, it'll make that session a bigger adaptation stimulus that will feed better into long-term growth. I love it. And then I think think about the sentence that goes. We've been talking about like the sentence that you feed into the AI system to make it perform better. Give a sentence to yourself like you can still do great training on less than five hours a week and hold confidence in that. Like we can do these other things to kind of maximize that time and like be strategic with it. You can be a beast in that timeframe and like think about that and own that and consider it. And the body can adapt long term in that frame. Yeah. I'm talking about the Canyon 66 miles being unthinkable to me. The reason is I seriously feel like it was just yesterday when a four hour running week would have blown my mind. Like it would have been I would have been so sore. I'd have gotten injured. I tee-banned. I tee-banned as our motherfuckers. Plinter fasciitis is a war crime. And I've dealt with all that when I was especially when I was starting out but it lasted years. And you know every single one of those little bricks that I was putting in the wall ended up adding into this hole. And so you know now like yeah you know I did okay at that race but I can imagine things that are unthinkable even looking at that race result. And well what are you imagining? What I imagine? Yeah. I'm running on the spot. Like did you finish that race and are you imagining? I mean I think it's important to like fully soak in the moment but are your dreams stoked? Yeah. I can win it all. I can win everything. Yeah. I mean I, I, I, I don't care. Yeah. Like I, I didn't even know I could finish before. Yeah. I mean I mean you believed in me but I didn't believe in me. Yeah. I mean really at a baseline level I didn't know how it was feasible. Yeah. You know I'm like one of those people I imagine driving that distance and you know like it's a cliche thing to say but I'm like that is fucking false. Yeah. No. We very rarely drive that distance. No. Yes. Yeah. No and you know God I mean it's just, it blows my mind but thinking back to this question it's like you know I remember running four hours a week and my fast twitch fibers just like you know I was one of the kids at college that was wearing the iPod or the whatever, the iPod shot to my arm running in gym shorts and you know like just on the treadmill or whatever just on outside like learning what running was like a lot of lower listeners are currently and you know looking back on that journey it's like that part of the journey there was no way to skip that step and that step lasted a good three or four, three years let's say and even after that it was, it was difficult for me at times and it wasn't until I met you that I was able to understand what was possible. So if you're in that step don't think you're always in that step. You can always use, you're also building towards something really special and you know in that moment too you can accomplish things that you never dreamed possible and just know that you don't have to be in that step forever. I love that. Well I was talking about the iPod and like the iPod shuffles. It brings me back I remember being high schooler and running on the track and training for feel hockey and soccer and some of the other sports I was doing and I was carrying around a disc player. So like a CD disc. Like a walk man. It wasn't a walk man. I actually might be what you were talking about. Yeah like the circular thing. The circular things it looks like a little like our gen Z listeners have no idea what the fuck you guys are ancient. But you had to hold it like out like a pizza if you rotated it sideways the CD would stop spinning. You can't listen to your music so I had like those wrap around headphones holding running with like one arm and holding the CD player out with the other. It was great. And one hand with that CD player that looks like a pizza and the other hand with bagel bites the pizza. Yeah I love bagel bites. I still remember the jingle. Pizza in the morning pizza in the evening pizza at supper time. It's basically the theme of the swap podcast. When pizza is on a bagel you can eat pizza anytime you missed it there. I didn't watch TV. That's true. Yeah I failed you. If I gave you like a quote from a book you would have nailed it. I'm missing so many podcast references by my childhood. It's not true. Yeah. Okay let's record our time. This one is so fun. Dear Megan and David I've never sent an email to a podcast but in a moment of reflection I realize how much swap has sent my life on a positive trajectory. I am a college student who does parenthesis attempts to do triathlon and also a person who deals with a lot of self-doubt, anxiety and identity issues. This may sound strange but ever since I started listening to the podcast the mean voice in my head isn't so loud. Instead the one I hear cheers me on telling me you got this whenever I start doubting myself during a hard workout or hard essay. In the past year I've done many things I would never have done before such as applying to internships, doing races and meeting new people. I credit a lot of this to the swap podcast. To me the swap podcast embodies the best parts of the running community that if you're any sort of misfit you can go there and know you belong. Not sure if this makes sense but I just wanted to say thank you for providing a little voice in my head that reminds me to show up, work hard and have a fucking blast while getting after it. Thanks for being awesome. Woohoo. This person is so cool. Is it the coolest? They also totally don't understand our CD discussion. Yeah. Is there a college student? I love them already. I want to give them a big hug. Maybe they sell the CD in like a museum or something. Right? Yeah. But what I responded is that there's the parenthetical there where they said they do triathlon. They said they actually attempt to do triathlon. And it's like those parenthetical are something we all feel. Even talking about my race today I'm like well do I need to add the parenthetical that like I got stomped? You didn't get stomped. But the thoughts there are my head. Just like the thoughts there for this person the attempt to do it. It's like no you fucking do it. And let's try to stop those parenthetical. I think the more you go about it's like a habit of practicing like stopping them. And even though it feels like I don't know kind of minor doing it on paper. I feel like it bleeds in the thrust. Yeah and it's not as we always talk about humility can go fuck itself. Like you know you get one shot at life own your swag. So this listener you are the coolest person ever. Oh my god. Just reading this you're really brilliant and awesome and we appreciate you so much and we can't wait for your future. And for everyone out there like embody that. Think about where your parenthetical is lie where you're like you know what I do this but I'm not the best at it so like does it really count and say no I'm awesome I love me some me. Do I think the best way to do that what pretend you're a traitor to his cashier. You're talking to people and you're like you're just gonna love this. I'm gonna love you some me. Yeah. You know what I love what thinking about you at mile 50 seeing the death warmed over being like I guess I'm gonna be here for like 10 more hours as tries to finish this race. Getting me out there anyway and making it possible for me to do things that I never would have conceived I could do even in the moment that I was doing. Well I loved you more than than I have at any point in our 12 year relationship which is I mean I've obviously loved you a ton and it's it's on it's strange that that happened because it's it's an ultra I mean we do a lot of different things we've done a lot of hard things but yeah something about that was special and so cool and you did it you fucking did it and I'm so proud of you. Thank you so much and to everyone go do something really really scary that you don't think you can do and delete those parenthetical. Bring the mochi race nuggets. And brush your teeth after you vomit all of our life trails. We love you all. Bye. I'm going to do that.