153. Grayson Murphy Interview! World Champion Talks Happiness and Athletics!

What can the Simmerk All Play podcast? We are so happy with you today. Happy Tuesday. It's Tuesday. And I'm feeling so rejuvenated on this Tuesday, David. It feels like my physiology is bubbling. I'm ready to go. You look so bubbly right now, Megan. You look like a Coca-Cola, one of those incredibly refreshing life-changing drinks that you get after a long, hot ride. Like one of those drinks that if you shake, they're about to explode. It's that kind of my energy. That is so true, which makes sense, because we just got back from your sister's wedding, where you were the matron of honor, and you absolutely rocked the speech. And the speech was at 8.15 PM. It was just an incredible accomplishment for you, because it was past your bedtime. Oh, thank you. Well, the matron of honor sounds really, I sound like I'm like a 96-year-old grandma. I'm like, Caroline, my sister, like, why did you give me that term? I guess it refers to a maid of honor who's been married. I'm like, can we just stick with maid of honor, please? This is not great. Yeah, you looked like a young maid, not an old maid. But I could imagine you milking cows, or whatever maids do. It was perfect. But your speech was beautiful. And our most fun part for us was getting to see little baby Leo be the ringbearer. So he was in his tux at six months old, and absolutely rocked it. As I took him down the aisle, he was smiling so big at everybody in that audience. It was a big time players make big time plays moment. He crushed it. I was so nervous for him. And I was like, do not cry. Do not poop your pants. Do not projectile vomit as you come down this aisle, which I would have made for a good story in the long term. But it was such a beautiful celebration of love. Like, I don't know. I love leaning into weddings, and just being like, I'm going to swirl around and all of these great emotions that are stewing here. And yeah, it was fun. And I did a speech. Yeah. I've had like a, we've talked very openly on this podcast, how I don't love public speaking. And I feel like over the last couple of years I put my foot down and I'm like, no, I'm going to fucking enjoy this. And I did. And it was great. And it was at 8.15 PM at night, which is like my grandma at that time. Yeah, it was so beautiful. Everyone in the audience was laughing. And then people were crying. I don't know how you did it, especially knowing your journey, Megan. And then you broke it down on the dance floor to celebrate like nobody's business. It was incredible. Oh, thank you. Well, the dance floor was impressive for you because I've had this like public speaking phobia for a long time and I've been powering through it, working my way through it. And you have a wedding dance floor phobia. So I feel like this wedding combined to like create our two phobias all at once. Yeah. And we did it. Yeah. Were you proud of me though? Because like you said, David, you don't have to dance. But then right as the music started, we were the first couple out there almost. Were you proud of me for being like, I'm getting out there with Megan. I'm so proud of you. It seems like you genuinely enjoyed it. What did you think of dancing? Well, OK. So my thing that I thought is I just overthink it. I said when I say think eight times in one sentence there. Because like, no one really is that good at dancing, especially at this wedding. Because like, you know, we're not dancers. And what I learned is that, OK, I need to do before the next wedding. You know, letting down your inhibitions is one thing. We don't really drink alcohol. So that was a little tougher from like a chemical standpoint. We are probably the only sober people on that dance floor. That makes your dance moves even more impressive. I would have gotten so much better if I just had a little bit of cider. A little bit of a spritzer. I'd be like rocking it. Actually, knowing you, if you had two sips of cider, you'd be better. You'd be like, I'm so ready to dance, Megan. I have two sips of cider, I feel it. But then if I had four sips of cider, I'd be passed out on the floor. So it's really thin line. But what I learned before the next wedding is I'm going to go on YouTube and search 10 different dance moves for a wedding. Because what I realized is once I got out there, you know, I just rhythm doesn't come naturally to me. So I was just repeating the same moves that I saw. And just doing like one or two moves over and over and over again. But if I have 10 moves, people will not just think, OK, that guy isn't a total embarrassment. They'll think, that guy knows what he's doing. He has moves. So will you do that with me? Will you watch YouTube tutorials? I'm so excited for this. We're going to get sore. We're going to have to do like foam rolling to recover from this. We're going to go full scale training. But that's actually helped me get through my public speaking anxiety. Is I just started practicing and preparing a ton. And it got me to the point that I would step up there on stage. And it was kind of like automatic and rhythmic. And bringing it down into like 10 different dance moves steps like you're talking about. But then for this speech, I mean, I've done so much now that I didn't even practice. I didn't even prepare. I just stepped up and did it. Yeah, you're so good that you heard the beat and just started twerking metaphorically with your voice. And I think one of the reasons that we were so ready for this wedding and so ready to perform in our different ways is because we got to see just the week before, Grace and Murphy run the uphill race at the United States championships and the up down race at the US Mountain Championships. And win both of them and look like such an artist doing it. She was such a performer out there. There are these amazing videos that we also showed to Leo, which might explain his ring bearer performance of her running down a hill. And it was a pure work of art. I can't really explain to you. Please go to her Instagram and check it out. It was so fun to talk to her after these dominant performances. I probably watched these videos 36 times. At least Megan. Yeah, it was a little embarrassing. My phone knows the truth. Yeah, well, so Grace posted it with the pretty girl sound song. And I heard that playing from your phone just like for a second. Oh shit, it's auto playing. This is creepy. So many times we were showing it to baby Leo. It was like our version of incanto or Moana with how much we were showing it to him. And it really just was a truly authentic experience to her because I went to Grace and's website. And this is the tagline on her website. It says airplane arms or you're doing it wrong. And in this video, she was doing airplane arms just to keep herself balanced because it was so steep and technical. But it was a remarkable thing to witness. And it parallels with everything from Grace and's life. She is a remarkable human. And it is so fun to be a little part of her journey. It's so cool to be part of her journey and to see how she's brought the spirit of airplane arms into everything that she does. She's really had to work at the idea of finding what she enjoys in life. And she has this framework of thinking about what makes her happy and using that to drive her decisions. And I think it's such an evolved and beautiful framework that we don't talk about enough. Like I feel like so often when people make decisions, happiness is drops down to like number 99 on the priority list. And it's so I think it's really empowering to see someone like take their priority list and rank that in the top few things that matters to them in life. So true. And she had to go through a really tough journey to get to this point, right? Like it wasn't her baseline setting to prioritize happiness first. She had to go through low points with her professional running journey, with her journey transferring colleges, with coaches, with even competition. Like she talks about being dreading races so much that she would try to look for ways out in the past. And now she loves it. And she's established herself as one of the best athletes on the planet with happiness at the forefront. And it was so cool to get to learn about things that even as her coach, I didn't know about her. And so this podcast was the ultimate joy for us. I think it was the getting to sit with friends as they, a friend, as they talk about this really life-defining journey of not just overcoming something that might be a little bit like a phobia at times. We should actually use the word phobia in the podcast. And to me, that actually, it really hit me in the feels because we've both had phobias. So we've been very open on this podcast. Mine is working. Yeah, I just can't do it. It's really freaking hard. And actually talks about in the podcast, it's hard to explain why it's even hard. Like it's just one of those things that like sits with you and it's like, this is really fucking hard and I can't explain it. And that almost makes it worse. And she has that every time she steps on the track. And when I heard that, I got goosebumps because I was like the amount of grit and courage it must take for her to be on a start line of a race and to work through this phobia and to be where she is now. It's, I mean, I don't even have words. It's so cool because I fully understand how much that sucks and how much like heading into a race, like the level of nervousness and anxiety that she must have. And she's worked through it. She's done it. She's one of the most inspirational athletes I've ever seen. It's inspirational for anyone who's ever struggled with anything from public speaking to twerking on the dance floor. Like it's that process of showing up and doing it. Yeah. And, you know, her journey is something that got into right away on the podcast. We started with these topics of pressure of putting yourself out there. And then we zoomed out to her history and traced her history all the way through being a soccer player and some of her childhood things to transfer in colleges, to becoming a pro and finding out that the protein she was on was not for her in the years of working through that. And then finally, injury. And then this place she's at now, which is almost as we called her, she called herself a trail fairy on the podcast. And I was like, she's more of like a trail Buddha. She has all of this wisdom. It's such a young age and it's so remarkable to see. I thought you were going to say trail badass. She's a badass Buddha, but actually her accomplishments and achievements, like back up all of this. And I think it's really fun to see someone who is taking this like this context of thinking about happiness as a framework. And it's led to success. So Grayson is a five time all American in college. She was she went to Utah and she found she navigated her way to Utah through different collegiate paths. She went on. She's the 2019 and 2021 US and world mountain running champion. World mountain running champion is a big deal. She also backs it up on the track too. So she has a 9.25 three case depot, which was sixth in 2021 at the US trials Olympic trials. And then she just recently ran a one 10 half on basically a trail running course. It took like a park or sort of situation for her to run this one 10 half. I think it probably equates to a one oh seven mid or a 108 high on an actually reasonable course. Her level of competition on the track on the trails on the roads is wild. Yeah. And as I refer to a little bit on the podcast, I think she has an argument already as the greatest of all time in female mountain running. I agree. She's come in. She's won every single race. She has won multiple world championships. She just won the US championships again in dominant fashion. There's nothing that Grayson can't do. She's the best technical runner. She's the best climber. She's the fastest runner. And I think that it's not just trails where she excels. I I've told her this and I mentioned it on the podcast too. I think it's very likely that she's going to be an Olympian in road marathoning. That's how good Grayson is. And she's showing that you can have happiness at the forefront while you do this. And maybe most importantly, Dino nuggets. So at the very end, we talk about her fueling strategy. And one of my favorite things about Grayson is that she celebrates happiness also in how she feels her body. She's doing it with chicken nuggets and other things just to know that she's putting in the work. She needs to get the calories to feel it. So Grayson is inspirational every way. She also has a BS in civil engineering. She's pursuing her master's degree. I'm pretty sure there's nothing she can't do. It's so impressive. All powered by Dino nuggets. David, you're very, I don't know, you're very influenced by things. And once you get influenced by things, you go all in. And I was waiting for that Amazon Prime shipment of like 600 packets of Dino nuggets to show up on our doorstep. And have you and Leo consuming them for breakfast, lunch and dinner. So I'm waiting for it. As soon as Leo grows teeth, Dino nuggets go and straight down that gullet. What about Addy Dog? Addy Dog Fetch is for chicken nuggets. I feel like we got to level it up. Yeah. And I'm trying to like set, you know, grand master's records for Addy. Like I want her to be the strongest 11 and 12 year old. So we knew those Dino nuggets. That's going to be transformational. And finally, Grayson is an entrepreneur. She has a training log and planner that everyone loves. It has all these incredible quotes. Even if you don't use the planner day to day, it's a wonderful thing to flip through to give to people in your lives. And right now it is 50% off. There's a link in the show notes that you should all go to. This is some way to support Grayson. It's only 14 bucks right now to show her that, wow, you listen to this podcast and you just want this person to be uplifted. So please, please, please go there and order it. It is a wonderful resource and also just shows Grayson that we love her. There's something magical about putting pen to paper. Yeah. And I feel like in a world in which we're like so online and connected, I kind of love like the real feel of training logs and Grayson's fully captures that. But she talked a lot about goal setting in this interview with her and it was fascinating to think about how what she puts out there as goals. She manifested. And we had a long conversation about that. And it wasn't something that's inspiring to me because sometimes I feel like when I write down big, scary goals, there's an element of fear in that. And I feel like just freaking do it. That's the takeaway I have from it is doing it and writing those goals down will manifest it and what better way to do it than on pen and paper. And you know, I use this training log and just to flip through it and look at quotes and different ideas of how to structure things. I don't really write in it too much because my handwriting is basically a load. It allowed a relatable. I think so even without writing in it. It is such a valuable resource. So do that. And finally support the podcast on Patreon. We do bonus episodes every week. We do sexy science corners. You have a great community there. It is so awesome. patreon.com slash swap SWIP. We have so much fun on that. Patreon. Unfortunately, it's all computer written communication because David, I do think your handwriting is from second grade. You got stuck there in second grade. What happened? It says you a good question. Maybe there's the first time there was like a school dance. My brain just like, okay, stopping development now. So on our Patreon, you can find so many fun things and message just there. Also, athletic greens. We are massive fans. And while we didn't drink any alcohol before I did my wedding dance and Megan did her speech, we did have some athletic greens. It is magical stuff. It has so many things that help performance and recovery and maybe stress. Maybe that's one of the reasons I felt comfortable getting on their dance horse just because I was chill as a cucumber with my athletic green. So athletic greens.com slash swap SWIP. I'm so excited for my athletic greens future head. I feel like we're coming home right now and there's a great feeling in coming home and being like, I'm going to prioritize the little things. The little things in training that have dropped down to like number 99 in the priority list. And one of those things that's getting bumped back up is well-timed athletic greens. Yeah. And at that link, you get so many bonuses, including vitamin D dropper and travel packs, which are great for when you're going to weddings. I was having two travel packs a frickin' day and it was wonderful. So do that. Also, finally, subscribe to the podcast. Click follow wherever you listen and give it five stars. The podcast has been taking off recently and it means so much that you're listening and yeah, the more that you can be a part of that journey, the better. And if you can share it with people, that's great. If you like the podcast, share it with a friend. If you don't like it, just send it to your enemies and be like, good luck. Enjoy. Try listening to this on 1.5 speed. I love it so much. Okay. So without further ado, here's one of our closest friends and athletely coach. And I think one of the goats, Grayson Murphy. Grayson Murphy. It's so great to have you on the swap podcast. We are so darn excited for this. So excited to chat with you and yeah, I'm just so pumped. How are you feeling? Oh, I'm good. I'm a little less sore today. So that's good. Almost recovered. So we're recording this three days after your amazing double victory at the US mountain running championships. That's the uphill race and the downhill race. First, which was harder, do you think, the straight uphill race or the race that went up and down, up and down? Probably the up down, but just because it came after already going up the day before. Do you feel like when you step up like that into a race where you're, you know, the favorite, you've done all of these things, do you feel a lot of pressure to just perform to show up? Sometimes, but not really. I just know that if I try my best, that will be enough. So I just got to do that and it hasn't failed me yet. Has that process of like trying with trying your best being the goal? Has that been something that you've evolved to or is that kind of how you've always viewed running in particular? Because it's really hard as a professional athlete when like, yeah, I want to try my best. But like at the same time, you know, there's people out there watching and expecting things and that are going to comment if it doesn't go perfectly. Like, I mean, has that been a process of evolving toward that? Yeah, and I think it's funny. I think at the basis that always has been kind of my like going into a race like that's what I tell myself. And in college, I remember thinking like, you just have to try your best and that's all that matters. And so I think that's always been there. But it's with the different disciplines a little different. I, for some reason, do feel more pressure on the track and the mostly the track a little less on the road. Yeah, if there's a gradient of pressure, it'd be like track as a 10. It is like a eight and then trail is a five. So I think it's kind of weird how that has manifested itself in the different disciplines that makes it a little different. But I do think that's that's kind of the only thing that calms me down to is knowing like, just try your best. And then that's all you can ask for. Do you find different levels of excitement alongside the nerves? Like, I know for me, whenever I'm nervous, it's almost like there's nerves and there's also excitement in there too. Does your level of excitement vary for road races versus track races versus mountain running? Yeah, definitely. I think with track, there's like almost no excitement, most of it's almost all fear. And then on the other end of the spectrum, what trail race is, there's like nerves, but kind of in a good way too. We're like, I'm excited also to test myself and see how hard I can run up this mountain and then road fall somewhere in between there. Okay, I need to take a step back from our listeners. And we'll do some of this in the intro, so they'll know. But just to reiterate, this is coming from someone who was sixth in the Olympic trials in the steeple in 3k, which is incredible world mountain running champion. And she's feeling what everybody else does too. But one of the most interesting things you said there is before track races, you feel fear. What is it that you fear exactly when you're saying that? I don't really know because it's really not like intellectual fear. It's like a phobia almost. It doesn't make sense. And there's no reason for it because I've never had a terrible track experience. For the most part, I like PR almost every time I run on the track. So there's no justification for it, but yeah, I'm not really sure where it comes from, which is why I struggled so much with it. It was there was no basis for it. And I didn't really understand it. Well, I need to step back really quick and say a thing about myself that I don't know if I've ever talked about on the podcast. And Grace and certainly doesn't know because I'd be embarrassed to be a part of her journey is when I was young and first time I was like, Oh, well, track is what you do. Right? So I hopped in one like little local track race and found myself in a big pack and then just dropped out after like a mile and a quarter. I was just like, Nope, not for me. So I feel you're paying. Yeah, there's something about being in a pack that for whatever reason is like tight packs where I sometimes I just start to question existence and myself at the same time. Yeah, I totally agree. So I think we totally identify with that. But it's really interesting that coming from one of the best and really interesting to see that manifested now in training. Do you feel when you say you feel fear, do you feel fear of pain? And how does that pain differ from like track racing, which I feel like sometimes I'm on the track, I'm like metering out pain, whereas in mountain running, the pain is more like free flowing. It like undulates with the climbs. It goes away a little bit on the descents and lets your grace and Murphy and you're like crushing descents running 18 miles to close out races or 516 miles to close out races. How does that like fear and pain relationship relate? Yeah, I was just thinking about that because if I would tell you that like a VK is much more painful and like a pain since then or track race, because I feel like the VK is, I put this in my Instagram post, but it does feel like running in 800, but for like 40 minutes. Everything's just like you're lactic into your fingertips sometimes and it just, yeah, your lungs are burning and you're like, I just have to keep moving forward even if it's not fast. Where the track is like, it does start out differently. I've told David this a lot, but I think my muscle type might have to do with it. I'm just like a lot more comfortable like at threshold than something above it, even if the pain is less. So I would say they're very different. But yeah, I think the, maybe it's the black and whiteness of the track to where it really exposes you and you can't hide from anything on the track. And it is all about numbers and splits and less about effort. And like if the weather's bad, then the race is ruined. Like in the mountain race, it was horrendous on Sunday and the race wasn't ruined. Like everyone still ran a great race and it was fine. So I think having more variables is kind of like lessons the fear and less variables is more fear. I love that point. Well, David, I'm thinking about you because David recently completed the candidates under K and you had an epic bomb session out there, but you, it was just you in the woods out there. It wasn't like an entire stadium of people getting to witness this, whereas we go to the track races after staple chase and people are just like destroying me on the track. And it's, I mean, that's, that's like the spirit. That's why we do what we do. But I also imagine there's like a ton of vulnerability and laying on the track and being like, I'm destroyed or even like even worse being in the middle of the race and being like, you know, something is off my body. This is hard. It's hard to keep up with pace. So I totally understand just how challenging that is. Yeah. And you felt that too, right? Like when you were doing track at Duke, like it seemed like you were very excited not to do it anymore. Oh, yeah. And that was back when too, like for me, I've never loved being the center of attention. I just feel like there's like this layer of judgment coming at me. I've learned to work through this, but back in college, that was so hard. I'm like, there's so many people watching me and I'm in these little dumb shorts running around the track. This feels horrifying. There are such little shorts. Yeah. Very little shorts. So speaking of the judgment that Megan mentions, like, you know, you've put put yourself in the public eye in this world in a really big way in the sense that like, you know, you have a ton of Instagram followers because you're one of the best athletes in history. I'll argue later on that I think you're already the greatest of all time female mountain runner, which obviously unbiased, but I think I'm right. So when you're, I mean, how does that really manifest for you in terms of thinking about your con like your role in the sport? Like, you know, a good example is I posted a little video of you running downhill. And of course, a couple people made a comment about, oh, those trails aren't really technical or something like that. And I was like, bullshit. There's like a peep, peep hog in there. Yeah. There's all kinds of stuff they were, they were gnarly technical. But like, I mean, you've probably get a fuck tone of that that we're not even seeing like messages and things like that. Is that something that affects your enjoyment of the sport? How have you learned to contextualize that over time? Yeah, sometimes I've gotten a little better, I think it not listening to it. But I also am just a sensitive person. And I don't think I'll ever be like the person that is like, Oh, I just don't care what people think of me because I do for better or worse. I think I'm really empathetic. And that hurts me sometimes. But yeah, I don't know. I think I still feel like I have a lot to prove, which is why I want to challenge myself more. Because I think people always find a reason. I'm learning that it will never end. Like they will always find something that I haven't done or a way to flip it and that like it wasn't good enough. So that's kind of been helpful. But I think too, like I can kind of flip them on their head and be like, Okay, well, then I'll just go do it. Like, yeah. Okay, then another challenge, I guess. So it's been fun. And I feel like if I can just kind of focus on challenging myself as opposed to trying to like beat others down or like in spite of them, which is what I think I did for the Olympic trials. And although I did well on the track, I don't know that I ended that season feeling like I'd never want to do that again. And the joy was kind of sucked out of it. So yeah, I learned a lesson in that too. Well, I think Grayson, one of the coolest things that I've seen from you recently and actually from any athlete recently is you went on Instagram and you posted your race schedule for the year. And you said in that post, like, I'm posting this out here because it's scary. I mean, I think anyone that puts the race schedule out there, it's scary because like people are watching you, they're following you, they're following you, there's sometimes like inherent expectations in that. And I think people are waiting to judge particularly Grayson too. Because she's so damn good. Because she's so damn good. Yeah. You know, if you come at the queen, you best not miss. And a lot of people are coming at the queen. Yeah. And in that post, you said something like manifestations work stronger than Jix's and like, I'm going to put this out there. I'm going to manifest it out there for me. And you even put the world mountain running champs on there with an asterisk saying I have to call it. I was like, yes, she is. Checkbox. Definitely going to do that. What was that process like of like putting yourself out there? I mean, I think anytime someone like you goes to one of these races, there's this big target on your back. What is it like putting yourself out there, both like with your race schedule and showing up to these races? And did you ever shy away from that in your journey? Yeah. So last year, I pulled out of almost every race that I was entered in because I was injured. And I felt a lot of shame in that process. Even though it shouldn't be a shameful thing, like my leg was literally not working. But I realized this here like, again, I'm just going to put it out there because I don't want to feel the shame anymore. And it shouldn't be shameful to get injured. And I really have seen the manifestations work better than jinxes. I was like, maybe this will help because usually every year that I've written my goals in my training log that I want to accomplish for the year, the exception of last year, I've accomplished all of them. And I think like writing it down and putting it out into the universe, just something happens with the energy. I don't know who's in charge, but something happens, makes it work. Do you feel like the injury that you're mentioning has that changed this process at all? Because we've known you for a long time and David has coached you for a while now. And in that process, you've been pretty injury resilient and bulletproof. I should say rockproof because I feel like you're so resilient on trails that you really haven't gotten injured. Did that foot injury kind of shape how you've thought about some of these processes? I feel like you're so evolved from a mental health perspective and from how you view the sport perspective. Did the injury contribute to that? Grayson's like a sports Buddha over there, right? Yeah, seriously. Yeah, I found Zen. I have like transitioned into enlightenment. Yeah, I guess the foot thing was hard, but then the hip thing that just never went away was the hardest part. And I think that it just gave me a lot of gratitude for this season, because I realized last year, how quickly it can all be taken away. No matter how hard you try, I saw so many doctors and it still wasn't for my lack of trying to get better and injury free that I couldn't race. So this year, it's like, okay, I'm going to take advantage of these races because you never know what's going to happen. And even a competitor at the races weekend, Megan, Lacey ended up breaking her foot in the middle of the race. Oh, no, just like nothing you could have foreseen. She didn't go into the race with an injury. So yeah, can you take it away in like a nanosecond? So I think that has changed my outlook a little bit too. One of the coolest things is you're talking about writing your goals in your log. So the log she's talking about is the Grayson Murphy training log. We're going to talk about this up top, but everyone's got to get it as so much motivation in so many different ways to structure your thinking about this all modeled on things that Grayson's learned and she's learned from other athletes. But before your first big race this year, which was half marathon, where you were the star attraction. Like if you looked at the at the posters of the race, it had her on it. The previous record at this race was 117 and Grayson needed to run under 112 to qualify for the Olympic trials. And like the day before the race or the week of the race, you posted a picture of your, your log and your goals, your A, B and C goal. And you just put it out there that like, I'm going to, you know, go for this goal of running the Olympic trials at this race that seems really, well, trials qualify at this race that is a slow course. It's going to be raining. It's going to be a headwind, all this negative things, all these negative things. And then even the night before the race, when we were texting, you're like, you know, I did my shake out. I don't know, but you know, I'm in a good place. Like when you do that now, I mean, if your brain resisting, like, is it something that you have to be like, all right, this is willpower, I'm going to put this public or are you just like, you just totally embrace it and it's part of what gives you power. Yeah, I think I just totally embrace it. And like, I wrote it down. So it's real. And I would show anyone that asked to see it. So why not just put it out there. And I get free advertising or my training log. But got to sell those bogs, girls, she's a CEO bus bitch, right? Always be hustlin. I do think the ABC goal thing has helped me a lot. And it's I started in college too, is like, there's a lot you can't control. So that's kind of the seagull is if everything goes against you, like, what is the one that you can control and make that a goal? But yeah, I think it's, it helps me. And then people know, and then everyone on course, when I was passing them, because it was an out and back. And there was a marathon and a 10k also on the same course at the same time. There are a lot of people to cheer and have to run around. But they all were like, come on, 112, you got it, you're almost there. And that was cool. Because they knew like exactly what my goal was. And they were cheering for me. You ran a 110 on that course, which is so wild, because there's a video of you finishing, taken by your sister, I believe, from her bike. And you're just like up on a sidewalk, like passing people left and right. I'm like, that is insane. We have a friend who is a almost a PhD in this field, who knows that course. And he's like, I think that 110 that she ran there is equivalent to a 107 low, or 107 mid, which is just wild that you've built this in the things that you've done athletically. It's just so cool. I mean, did you ever really think you'd get here? Because this is a really big, scary goal that you're at. And you're starting to have to conceive of, okay, yeah, you've won a World Mountain Championship. And as I'm telling you, it's like, you might also be in the Olympics one day, or these types of ideas scary to you, or you feeling like, okay, now I'm going to own these too. Yeah, I think I just want to own them. Because that's also, I've never, so I was never the kid that grew up and thought I want to be in the Olympics. That's my one singular goal, or that will define success in my career. So it's kind of just like part of the journey. And if that's going to be part of it, that would be sweet. Like I would not say no to going to the Olympics. But only time will tell. And I can't predict the future. So I can only try my best, like I said, just show up and try my best. Do you have a big, scary, like three-year goal down the line that you're thinking about? I think like, I agree with David watching that half marathon, I was baffled. It was like a 110. And you were literally parkouring out there. It was epic. Like, it was actually, it was great that you're a trail runner, because I felt like there were like, serious trail moves involved in running this 110 half marathon. But like thinking about trails, roads, track, I mean, I feel like it's really like your oyster out there. And what do you have a scary three-year goal? Not really. I don't know if that's good or bad. But I don't usually have the goals other than like, kind of like right in front of me. Like this year, I want to like go after another win at the World Championships and then go on trail series and just kind of go from there. I feel like my career has evolved so much on a year to year basis too that sometimes I'm like, I might be like mountain biking next year. Professionally, I might not even be running. So, yeah, I think I just have to go like kind of what's in front of me. But I think that gives me less anxiety too of the future, which I don't need anymore of. Yeah. Grace is going to be professional parkour next year. Oh yeah. No, I actually think professional mountain biker. I saw her on a mountain bike and I was like, we got to get racing on a rock garden. It's kind of wild. But you've done, you've done mountain bike racing, you've done Nordik ski racing, like all trying these new things for like the first time. Has that changed your mindset surrounding competition? Because it's like, I think when you try different things, it might impact like how you competitively view getting on the start line of something that you're used to doing. Yeah, actually, I think it's been really great. So when David was coaching me in the first year at the end of 2020, I was like, oh, maybe I need exposure therapy to racing because I really didn't like racing. And even though that's my Instagram handle, I don't know if I would say that like racing was my favorite thing all the time. So going out and trying new sports where there was literally no pressure because I was like just a beginner in it has been kind of eye opening to the pressure and the nerves and be like, oh, this is what it's supposed to feel like. It doesn't have to have fear involved. Like it can be a good nervous energy. And before when people said good nerves, I was like, what the hell are you? I feel like I want to die when I get on race start line. So like going into the half, I was like, just remember the way the nerves felt at the ski race. And it was like nervous, but in like a curious way, not in a pressure way. And I think that really helped me with the when I saw the course and was like, oh, no, I don't know about this. Yeah. So I think going back and being like, just try and replicate that feeling instead has been nice because I also didn't grow up racing. So I think I needed those like experiences of races that weren't national championships or kind of big events to feel like, oh, this can be okay, actually. I love what you say about curiosity, because I feel like each one of these events and each one of these feelings, like I hear the term good nerves too. And I'm like, what are you guys talking about? I have never experienced that in my life. Anytime I've had nerves, I'm like, please, please get me away from this feeling. So it does clear my bowels. Yeah, actually. Yeah, it's convenient. And I feel like these are just like such great chances to like learn more about yourself and learn more about like why we do what we do. Have you, do you enjoy the process of training? Like, would you, when you talk about like having these fears surrounding racing, would you just train for the hell of it? Like, do you enjoy training enough like that you don't necessarily need a race to structure it? Yeah, definitely. I think I like training. Yeah, training is like far and above racing until recently. I've had fun racing this year has been really fun, but I really do enjoy training and adventuring, especially on trails. It just feels like more of an adventure and less of like a training thing. I'd probably wouldn't go do track intervals if I wasn't racing for fun. Like, that's not really my idea of fun, but I would run up mountains pretty hard regardless. The coaching perspective here is I think Grayson would do lots of mountain runs and would do threshold intervals all day long left your own devices and never touch VO2. Yeah, exactly. Every time she has like, hey, we're going to do a little bit of VO2 work. She's like, how much of this do I need to do? I'll do the bare minimum of like speed work. Yeah. Yeah. So you had a tweet actually that I want to read because I think it touched a lot of people to hear this from one of the best athletes in the world. So here it goes. I feel like a lot of people are finally figuring out that you run best when you're happy and that makes me very happy. That's the secret, you guys. That's all it is. And I don't think that that's a normal way that people are taught, especially at the elite level of sports, right? Like Michael Jordan, no one gives a shit if he was happy when he was winning NBA championships, though I think hopefully people are moving towards that now. How did you evolve in that perspective? Because like, as you're talking about with racing, there's no way that feels natural when you're putting yourself out there and making yourself so vulnerable. Yeah, I think so when I left NAZ Elite, which was the first pro team I was on my very first year out of college and first year as a pro, it was because I said I wasn't happy and I felt like I wouldn't say I got a lot of shit for it, but I did feel like I got a lot of eyebrow raises about it and like, this thing isn't supposed to make you happy or I unfortunately saw a lot of let's run things about it, but they were like, well, she just doesn't know how to work hard or like she just can't tolerate pain kind of thing. Like I just didn't have what it takes. And I remember feeling like, no, but like I need to be happy to do this. And I, but before I left, I literally made a list. I was like in a very dark place, but I decided to make a list of like the things, top five things that make me happy and it could only be one word. And so that was like family, sunshine, mountains, cat, I think. Yeah, so I think I was like, I don't have half of these things right now. And that's like what I need to survive basically. And when I boil it down to that, I was like, I just know if I have these things all run well and maybe even faster, even though like people weren't really saying that was what it was. And so that tweet kind of came that was like this week that I tweeted that came from, I saw one of my teammates from an azalea who I was living with at the time actually when I left the team. And he tweeted about it, Scott Fable, and he had a great race at Boston again. And he tweeted like this was my best build ever and also my happiest build ever. And I felt like I ran really well and I'm realizing that I run well when I'm happy. And no shade to him. But I think when I left and I was like, I'm not happy, he was like kind of confused. And to see him like five years later come to the same realization. And he's also on a different team now and has changed his environment. That was really cool to see like, wow, we're starting to get this. And maybe I'm not so crazy after all to think this. And maybe I was just a little ahead of the curve, but that's okay. And people are coming around to this idea. Are there things in racing that make you happy? So like, it's fascinating to think about like, what is the drive that gets you to the starting line that involves happiness? Like when you're standing on a start line at the US Mountain Champs, like, are there elements of that that make you happy for what's coming ahead? Yeah, I really do like trails and like the VK at the US Champs this weekend was like a little hobbit race on the single. There's like moss everywhere. And I kept thinking like, you're like a forest fairy. So that's fun. And I really enjoy like being in nature and like playing in dirt. And like, as a kid, I was always playing in dirt. So that kind of brings me back to like a childhood happiness, which I really enjoy in races. And then I'm competitive too. So trying to win and then seeing how many minutes I can put on the next second fastest person is a fun challenge to crushing crushing bitches. The thing is, Grayson, is it so something that you would never say, I feel like publicly, but before the races, she was texting me and I'm talking to Megan right now to our listeners that like, oh, I just want everyone to show up and so that we can have like, we can go at it together. And she wants to face everybody. And you know, I was so pumped about that, because like, when I was like, oh, this person isn't racing, you're like, oh darn, I want to face them. And then in the race itself, this is important context for our listeners. She won by five minutes in a race that took her 35 minutes in the vertical race of the US championships. There was one little flat section after the first climb. Grayson hit four minutes, 22 seconds per mile pace for a period of time. So that little magical fairy hobbit is running really fast. I believe it because she was using, I saw Grayson, there was a video of you descending and I watched it like six different times. You're like Leo so many times more than that probably like 36 times an embarrassing amount to like a stalker level, but you were using almost like airplane arms because the trail was technical, it was really steep and it was like providing counterbalance essentially. And it was so genius. And like, Grayson, like, how have you figured this out? You're a fast trail fairy. It's great. Love it. Yeah, I need wings or something. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Let's get some wings. But one thing you said, we're going to actually zoom out to your history a little bit here, but maybe as a way into that slightly. When you left NAZ Elite, which was your first team, you mentioned the Let's Run threads. And, you know, it's a thinly kept secret that people glance at this stuff in the running community, even if you know that it's not necessarily the healthiest place. And I remember seeing those threads about you before we had ever met. And like, in retrospect, knowing what I know about you as a human, it's so fucking terrible that people would say this type of thing about someone that is the hardest worker I've ever seen. Like, you would do 120 miles a week next week if you thought it was the thing that was going to give you the best bang for your buck. When you see something like that at that point, when you're in a vulnerable place, how did that affect you? And was it a process in dealing with that? Yeah, that took me a couple years to get over. Wow. And I would say, I still have little voices in the back of my head sometimes, you're like, you can't do this, or you can't work hard, or even I shouldn't. Again, I'm really also don't have the tough, I have the least tough skin, I think. But like, even someone on my Strava, for one of my workouts, I'd put like, oh, the wind. And then they on their Strava were like, when Grayson Murphy thinks seven mile per hour wind is windy. But then it was the same video I posted on Instagram of like the fuck this shit, audio and the wind. And you can like see my clothes like blowing against me and flapping. So it wasn't seven miles per hour. But in my head, I'm like, oh, maybe I'm not tough enough. Yeah, even though the wind is actually probably like 20 miles per hour. And then in the next workout, that got to me. And I was thinking like, you can't like, you have those moments where you're not feeling good workouts. And it was one of those workouts that week, it was that week that was not very good. And I almost cried in the middle of the rep because I was just kind of like struggling to get back to like a place of you can do this, because all I kept hearing in my head was the guy saying, oh, you're not tough enough. You think it's windy or you should be able to run five twenties and 20 mile per hour winds when I just can't. So yeah, it's taken a while and I still have like those little regresses, I guess, into letting that affect me. But I try and keep my head up. Well, I just I want to say that every time you have a workout, I am all over weather underground. And that day, the wind gusts were 38 miles an hour. Similarly, when you registered for that half marathon, I Google Earth the course. And I was like, Grayson, I don't know about this. Also, Grayson, your clap back should always be like, race me. Because you're a little bit gracing against anyone and actually, Grayson with anyone, like, even if they had a seven mile per hour tailwind, they stand no chance against you. So it's yeah, I would love to see them in a race against you. Actually brings back the clap back on Twitter that happened after someone said, Oh, those aren't technical trails. That was the video of Grayson descending. That is such a work of art that you have to go see it. Please, please, please. I think it's on Grayson's Instagram now as a regular post. It is one of the coolest things I ever seen. And what Grayson said back, which I absolutely love knowing your personality, where you're not the type that like does this. I'm like the opposite of someone that does this and when I saw it, I was like, Megan, check out this. Here it is. Great. So how about you two get out on the course and let's see what your descent time is and then we can talk. Yeah, I feel like I told my partner Logan, I was like, I really try and not to say anything. And I know I'm not supposed to engage, but like every couple of months, I just like have to let a little steam out and say something because sometimes it's just like, are you serious? Yeah. Well, Grayson, I look up to you so much and I saw that response and I was like, Grayson, this is like, I was taking notes over here. I was really pumped about it. Well, yeah. And especially so pumpy because like, you know, when we say, we genuinely think you're already in contention for the goat in this sport and especially as a female athlete, that brings out a number of people that are going to doubt every single move you make, question whether, you know, all of these different things. And I mean, what I've seen in the last few years is you've just kind of owned your journey as its own thing and decided that you're okay being different than maybe the prototypical person that, you know, might be worshipped on the let's run birds or whatever. And did you have to reach a fucking moment where you're just like, you know what, I'm not going to care what people think as much as I possibly can, while still letting it get to me sometimes. Like, was that a moment where you're just like, look, I have to do this? Yeah, I think when I won Worlds and it was my first season running trails, I was kind of like, well, that worked out. Like, I guess betting on myself is something worthy of doing. And I went against what everyone said would happen. And I'm in a much better spot now, even my sponsorships. Because I went unsponsored for a couple months there when I left in a easy elite of my choice, because I wanted to try trails and that was not something that they were going to pay for me to do. Oh, they made a mistake. I'm sure they look back at that and they're like, that was an oops. Yeah, they actually are like, we don't think you'll be good at trail running. Oh, I'm not going to sponsor you. I was like, bet. Okay. But yeah, once I saw that, that was kind of my like, oh, this actually works. So I need to try and ignore what they're saying, because I can trust myself. And even if it's a little weird, and then trying to run track and road and trail people were like, I think, oh, like, it doesn't matter. She's just the trail girl. But every road race I've run, like, even the US champs I've placed fifth or higher. So I'm like, okay, I can train on the trails and still play on their roads, too. And I think I realized people now are like Lauren Gregory and Anna Gibson are trying to do the same thing. And I think it's starting to see like, oh, okay, like, again, I might just be at the front of like something new. So it seems weird. But I think people are coming that it will make it less weird in the future. You're like the Lewis and Clark of exploring. It's flying. To wear. Yeah, that's much more like it. More female power. Also Native American power. But yeah, no, I mean, maybe like the first space explores because, you know, we were talking about like before the US champs, you're already talking about what is this going to look like in the future? And my comment to you is, I think that the person that you're motivating to beat you is probably a kid right now and is getting really inspired by what you're doing, because no one has really done it that much because they've been told they can't. And you trusted yourself to make this leap. And I'd love to dig in a little bit to where that trust of self comes in, because when we're talking about leaving NAZ and, you know, going to trails, all these other decisions along the way, I feel like they must have roots that go a little bit deeper. So let's zoom back a little bit for our listeners. And this is actually good for me too, because I need to learn a little bit about some of your history. When you're growing up, what sports did you play? We played soccer, basketball, gymnastics, cheerleading at one point. Oh my god, cheerleading. I love it. I can totally imagine. I'm actually like really little. Yeah, yeah, I can totally imagine you doing like 14 flips. I was gonna say backflips. Yeah. We actually, I felt like we played a lot of sports, but my mom was not into sports. So we didn't play a ton of organized sports, but me and my sister, I have a twin sister, Matty. We did kind of have free reign. We weren't very like supervised as kids. So we had bikes and then we were allowed to go wherever. So we would bike like miles and miles to things, to the whole foods to get pizza, which now is like three miles away. And we were doing that when we were like eight, like probably too young to be doing it. But I think it made both of us like super independent. And we realized pretty early on with some like childhood stuff too that we had to take care of ourselves because we couldn't really count on some people to do it all the time. So that made us independent as adults, I think, and that we just have to trust ourselves, but that we are capable of taking care of ourselves no matter what the circumstances. So that's when you feel like confident now as an adult in races. To that independence that you mentioned, they have negative consequences as well in terms of like how you've had to evolve to also rely on other people like, because that's like a double edged sword, right? You want to be independent, but you also want to be able to trust and you know, let down your garden things like has that been, has there been a mixed bag there? Yeah, for sure. I think because it does stem from like a place of neglect as a child. So now I like cannot ask for things. I can't even go to the grocery store and ask like, where's the goat cheese? I just can't, yeah, I think for some reason, I think I have to do everything by myself. So asking for help has been really hard. And it's something that Logan is constantly trying to work on with me because he's the complete opposite. He will ask before he even thinks he'd rather have someone else do it for him. But it's been good to see that and like, people aren't burdened by you asking for help, which is kind of what I was taught growing up was like, don't ask for anything because you're a burden to me. So it's been nice to see that people do want to help actually for the most part. And I like helping other people. So if I can kind of remember like, well, I like helping them. Maybe they feel that way about me. Well, I just want to help really quick. So Grayson, when you're in the grocery store, any cheese you're holding becomes the goat cheese automatic. Okay, more serious question. In the, you know, thank you so much for sharing that, by the way, that was, that was beautiful. In the context of, you know, this childhood, did your endurance talent manifest itself? Whether that was like in soccer or one of these other sports? Did you start to feel like, Oh, shit, this genetic ability is there? Like, even if it wasn't in a competition? Yeah, I think so. Definitely in soccer, I mean, my sister were always like the running around more than other kids. And we didn't really get tired like the other kids did. I remember mountain biking when I was pretty little, like maybe 10 or 11 and beating my grown stepdad and his friends up the mountain. And they were like, can you slow down? Like, we don't want to go this fast. And I remember just like hammering up. And then like, we always won the P mile, which was like once a year, we would run a mile. We always won. So that was kind of fun. And I think we kind of like knew we were good. And my mom did run a half marathon once when we were maybe in like high school or middle school. So it's weird because we didn't go to middle school. So we were in high school for six years. So at the time, I should have been in high school. She ran half and she like won or she did really well. And I remember thinking like, I could probably do that. But then that was like the extent of our running exposure as kids. So we really didn't have like a huge idea of the what was under the surface. I love Gerson that you're using we to talk about you and your twin sister doing doing athletics. It has to be wild. I thought about this all the time. It has to be wild to have like another genetic copy of you out there in the universe in terms of like thinking about someone with your genetics going out and like interacting and engaging. What was that like competitively growing up with your with your twin sister? Did that like impact how you think about competitive like sports at all? A little bit. And we got so competitive that first we got separated classes because our parents were like you can't even be in the same classroom together. And then we got separated in sports and they told us like you have to pick one and you're going to do that one and the other one will do it with you. So it was we were like hyper competitive in that way. But it is cool to see like I can kind of compare myself to her and it's kind of like a case study and I'll be like you do this and see what happens. I'll do this and I trained her to run a 10k last spring and she ran a 35 minute 10k off of like eight weeks of training. Oh my god. Yeah, I'm not surprised. Yeah. Grayson's genetic copy out there. Yes. Yeah. And she's not like she doesn't like run consistently throughout the year. Like she doesn't kind of spurts but she plays black football and basketball and lots of other things throughout the year. So training is like not her focus year round. David, I have a new swap recruiting approach. We should recruit anyone that's genetically related to Grayson. Yeah. We need to go on a hardcore. It's Molly, right? Is it your twin sister? Maddie. Maddie. We need to like do a hardcore recruiting approach to me. So what we need Grayson, all we need is a vial of your spit and 23andMe will be our partner when they deliver your relative report of like 175 relatives. We like recruiting people that live in like Ireland or whatever. Yeah. Wherever your your your your ancestry is. Okay. So let's trace that through toward college. When you went to college, you went to play sports, right? Yeah. So you were playing soccer. How did soccer go in college? I mean, you know, given what you were saying about your independent spirit, that must be a little weird when you go to college to play a sport where you're relying on people and like kind of a mix of everything. Yeah. I think so I also chose being independent me. I was like Utah sucks. I need to get as far away from Utah as possible. Yeah. So then I chose this tiny school in rural Virginia to go to and it was just completely different. But that's kind of what I was looking for was just something new and an adventure and just to see what it was like to live in a new place. So I got there and quickly realized it wasn't like club soccer growing up, which I thought was like super fun and I loved my teammates and traveling and tournaments were just like the most fun I've ever had. It wasn't like that. And I kind of was like, oh, I don't know if I like this so much. And I think I was like in a negative headspace too, which didn't help. But I also was like, I cannot be in Virginia. I guess I'm not a Virginia girl because this is like not floating my boat. It was so humid in the summer in August and they were like gnat stuck to your sweat everywhere. And then in the winter, I thought my coat was broken because it was so humid but cold and I never felt that before because Utah is dry cold. And I was like, this is not for me. No mountains. I can't see anything. There are trees everywhere. I can't do this. So I transferred and that's kind of like me starting to be more independent too, I think. So how did you find your way from the soccer and the transfer into running? I'm always fascinated by that because we have this unbelievable talent here that is playing a different sport. How do you actually find it and manifest it in running? So I picked the school because they had a great engineering program. It's just south of Stanford, but it was ranked with Stanford in the engineering program. And I was like, great, California palm trees, the weather will be amazing. That sounds fun. And then I started Googling like, what sports teams do they have? Because I knew I didn't want to join a sorority. I just like, not that person. I'd always been on a team. So I wanted a team and some sports to do. And I was like, well, feasibly the only sport I can walk onto with zero experience is probably running. So I'll like email the coach. And I had a 400 meter time and an 800 meter time from high school when my friends met me and my sister to do a track meet just to see what we would run. And they were like, oh, those times are pretty good. Actually, you can just like come be on the team. There wasn't even really a tryout and it was definitely the worst person on the team when I first got there. But by the end of the first cross country season, I was like our number one score for most meets. And then it just kind of took off. All the world might have been different. Had you emailed the billiards coach? Well, I'm sure your teammates were like, what the heck? We were not very happy actually. Like when I first showed up and the coach is like, this is great. And she has no running experience for this D1 team. And they were like, what? Like, we worked so hard to get on a D1 team and you just let her walk on. So they, a couple of them were not very nice. They ended up being all wonderful people, but they had their reservations. Yeah. No, I mean, it's hard. Like, and something we've talked about a lot too, like I call it with you like the burden of genius where you know, you're given these gifts, but pursuing the gifts is incredibly difficult. Like nothing comes easily. And I'm sure you were starting to navigate that as you got into running more where you're like, okay, I'm good at this. But like to see how good I am at this and to help my teams and stuff, I'm going to have to really go for it. So how did that process of going for it start to unfold for you from, you know, becoming number one on that team to your eventual signing with NAZ Elite? Like, what is that process like from realizing you're good to being like, I want to go for this? So much trust in everyone else. So maybe that's an evolution of my character because I need to trust people. But yeah, because I had no idea what I was doing. So I just would ask my teammates, like, what shoes am I supposed to be wearing? What's a GPS watch? Because I didn't know what that was. And how do I start across country race? Like, what does that even look like? And then to my coaches, just blindly doing though training, because I had no concept of like what was good or bad. And looking back, I definitely like went very hard. Like there were a couple of days, I like didn't make it to class because I couldn't, I was like so tired after the track session. But yeah, that was like learning to effort and how much you need to put out and win. And then I've just been really lucky. I think to have coaches and teammates that have been really supportive and uplifting and willing to like help me get there and just want to see me be happy and good. And there is like no other motive. And I still talk to the Santa Clara coaches and teammates. And when I still talk to my Utah coach and teammates, and they've all just been like, we're here for you and love you. Yeah. I love David that you brought up the idea of like a burden of talent and a burden of gifts, because like Grayson, you're so talented, but right alongside that talent, it's like this, like tons and years of hard work have gone into crafting like your whole athletic prowess. And pain. I mean, yeah. I mean, there's one thing that's unique about Grayson's physiology is your lack of threshold is extremely high. Like, you know, we've talked about this with her. I mean, her LTHR for the, we talk about this on the podcast, it gets up to like 190 at times. It might be a little lower than that right now, be she so fit. But like the part of her gift is that she also pushes herself harder than anybody I see. So like, you know, that is a huge, it's like so much pain mixed up with that talent too. Well, it's, it's really hard, but throughout this process, like, you know, as you're recognizing, like just how good you are at running, was there ever a moment where you're like, damn, like, I wish I could just like go out in the world and like be a normal person and not have to experience this like level of pain. Did you ever like have a moment where it truly felt like a burden of talent for you? Oh, not from the pain perspective, maybe from like the listening to other people's comments and dealing with that, like we already talked about, but the pain has never been, I don't really mind the pain. It doesn't feel that painful. Yeah. I tell David, like, at least once a week, I think my effort meter is broken. It just gets to a point and starts spinning around. And I'm just fine. Like this is fine. Everything's burning. Yeah. No, I mean, it's incredible. And so, okay, um, after Santa Clara, did you transfer to Utah for like, how did that work? Yeah. So initially I was going to transfer there just for my, uh, fifth year. Uh, so pro tip, if you switch sports in college, you get five years. Um, so I played soccer for one, and then ran for four. And that was, soccer was like, essentially my red shirt year of running. Um, so if anyone wants to do that, it's a great path. Yeah, I did that. I did that to walk under the track team. It was like such a gift, but then I was like, I have to enroll in a master's program. Yeah. Yeah. So the master's thing. Yeah. So I was only going to go for my fifth year for a master's degree. Um, but then they were like, I started talking to the New Mexico and Utah, just some of the top teams at the time. And they were like, well, we'll pay for your fourth and fifth year for free. And I was paying quite a bit to go to Santa Clara. So I was like, you know what? Like that sounds amazing. Cause I, um, wasn't really getting any financial help from parents or anything. I was paying for school myself. So I was like, that sounds nice. Yeah. I'll get that for free. So I chose Utah cause it was home for me. And I thought I'm kind of mitigating my risks here. Like it's not a new town. My family's there. So if everything blows up in my face, at least I like am comfortable there and have my support system around me. And it's free. And there's that whole foods pizza right down the street somewhere. Yeah. Exactly where it is. Yeah. Yeah. So perfect. Exactly the toppings you want. So are there any moments from your college career that really stand out in your mind as something you look back on fondly? Um, going to NCAA's as a team. My first year at Utah was so fun. And it was at Terrejo in 27, 16. Um, and the weather was horrendous. It was, I don't think I've ever been that cold before. I don't know why we were wearing, uh, buns and like nothing else. Cause it was like negative 15 with wind chillin like snowing. But it was just fun to have that experience. Cause everyone tried so hard and it just, I'd never really had that as a team before. And even though we, we placed top 20, which I think was like at that point, the highest finish the team had ever had. Um, everyone like was in it together. And that was super cool. Um, and then there's a lot of moments with my coach, because my senior year ended up being me and him a lot of the time, like at nationals and he turned into kind of my track dad. And he was just really good at like, you're okay. You've got this and like some caring moments there. So I learned a lot from him too about training. He was the first person that really taught me about threshold. So I credit for him to him. Yeah. He was ahead of the game. Yeah. He's such a great coach. He's such a great coach here. It just, yeah, so much respect for him. And what has it been like with your coaches? Cause I like hearing how you grew up and some of the struggles that you had in terms of like thinking about like freedom and independence and also the challenges that come with that. Have you found that like coaches have been a figure in your life or like, has that impacted even like your relationship with coaches and coaching relationships? Sometimes those become like really like, you know, formidable relationships in people's lives or at least big, you know, big kind of trust. Yeah. It takes a ton of trust. It's a big part of your life. Termine's how much pain you're going to meet her out. Yeah. How much do you have to enter? We'll say any of that. Oh, only not many. Yeah. Yeah. I think I've always coaches have always been like almost a parent figure to me or someone I really look up to and trust and value their input and want to work with to. Like, I've always wanted to collaborate, but even a lot of my soccer coaches it's a, I was like really coachable. And I felt like that was, that's what I wanted to be. I wanted to be coachable and I wanted to be able to work with and grow together. So yeah, I think I look to them for a lot of like parent figures in a lot of ways, especially with sports because my parents didn't do sports themselves really. So that was kind of the only way I could get that person. How did the process go from, you know, being in Utah, being in this nurturing environment to the transition to professional running, especially, you know, these teams are often, I mean, it's different, right? It's a lot different. Like, how did it go to get that opportunity and then decide that it might not have been the right step for you? Like, what was it like, do you like get a call or an email? How does that even work? Do you call them? For the professional teams? Yeah. Yeah. I think they started reaching out. So I got a set NCAA's in cross country my senior year. Yeah. And I was like the second American to Alio. And I think after that, they started reaching out and it was a little different than because you couldn't, there was not that NLI. So you couldn't really talk too much, but they would show their interests. So the agents and the coaches were reaching out to me and my college coach and just kind of putting out feelers. And then I did go visit NAZ Elite before USA's that year. And yeah, it was different though. And it was just different here. So Kept will always tell you that his ultimate goal with his athletes is that their lifelong runners and that they are just the best version of a person that they can be not the fastest version. And going to pro running, it was kind of a shock when they were like, we just want you to be fast. Or I remember them saying, like, would you sell your soul to go to the Olympics? And I was like, absolutely not. Looked at me like, what? Like, that is not the right answer. I wouldn't even sell my Subaru to go to the USA. I love that thing. Yeah. I do have a Subaru. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So I remember thinking that and being like, wait a minute, like that is not not the way to do it. Because Kept got me plenty fast without saying those things. So why would you think that that's what it needs to be now? Like, why do we need to change this? Yeah. And what was it like to, because like track teams in college are very different than professional running teams, what was it like stepping into a professional running team where this is this is people's professions, this is their jobs, this like added level of seriousness, often to it, like, what was it like stepping into the team of the other women? It was weird. And the team at the time was three older women significantly older than us over 10 years older. And then there were four of us that just graduated college. So there is a weird dichotomy of they're pretty far along in their career, too, we're just starting. And they had a lot of experience and they definitely been through a lot, but they would kind of, I remember a couple of times like they referred to us as co-workers and coach was our boss and this wasn't work. And that's not what running has ever been to me. And I, yeah, just didn't really relate to that. And I think that was wrapped up too in the whole, like, I'm not happy here realization. But yeah, that was just not how I think of running and not how I ever will really. Yeah. So how did you go from there to trail running? Like, where does trail running come in? Because they imagine you're extremely vulnerable at this moment, I imagine. Like, this is before, I guess I got to know you almost right after this. But like, you know, I imagine this is a moment where identity starts to crumble a little bit because like a huge part of you is like, is this what it is for everyone? And where did trails come in? Yeah. So I did have that like, is this what it is, though? Yeah. And then I thought, if this is what it is, I don't want it. If this is what it takes to be good is like working all the time and sucking the joy out of this, I don't want to be good, because that's not why I'm doing this. So then I went home, I left NAZ, went back to Salt Lake. And on my birthday, there was a Cirque Series race. And I remember thinking like, well, I've got nothing to lose. And I've always wanted to do this. And I had run trails. We hiked a lot growing up and camped a lot. So I was like, comfortable on trails. Hadn't done a ton of trail running other than looking back at Rancho, San Antonio. Like those trails, looking back and like, okay, did do it quite a bit. I'm aware because I got a lot of Grace and Murphy. Oh, email. I knew who Grace and was like long before like Grace and was like breaking out onto the incident. And I was like, who is this girl stealing all my Strava segment? We should have invested. It would have been like investing in Bitcoin when it was one sat again. And not only was she like, she was taking them by significant margin too. I was like, I'm not going to go back. We should have slid into those DMs. Right? Yeah. Ouchter from the beginning. Oh my gosh. Yeah, we would have been star struck. One of my teammates at Santa Clara followed you guys on Strava when it first started. And I was like, what is Strava? And she said, you have to follow the road just because they post the coolest trail pictures ever. The trails that we run at and they're so fun. So I would have fangirled that. Grace, that's why you were beating me is because I was stopping and taking things. Yeah, that's why. That's 100% why. Yeah. No, no, I actually, I didn't want to take that back because you are the boss bitch. You two are going to be like, Oh, yeah, but Grace and would crush my, cross my shoulder David. But you're going to be the ultra boss. She's going to be the sub ultra boss bitch. And you're going to team team together like a, like a mega zord from Power Rangers. Oh, I'm excited for that. Yeah. But also, Grayson could also be the ultra boss bitch. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If Grayson wants to run ultra, she can. But like if Grayson did, she would also dominate the world in the address. The trail fairies can do a lot. I'm not going to argue. Trail fairies. Yeah. But yeah, so like you did the Cirque Series race and I'm sure that it was that just like, I enjoyed this in the moment or was it like immediately like, wow, this is different. Yeah, I just was like, holy shit. This is like the craziest. It was also a crazy year. There's a lot of snow still that year. So we ended up going over like a boulder field and post-holing for a law. And I was like, oh my god, this is a running race. Like I had no idea. It could get like this. And I ended up getting second to Morgan, Aratola and then beating Anna May. And I didn't know who they were at the time, but everyone like, that was great. And Joe Gray was there and he won. And that was when we first met. And he was like, that was really good. And then I was like, I have no idea. But that was the funnest shit I've ever done. I like the whole way and it hurts so bad, but it was so fun. And so it's kind of hooked from then. And then kind of thought, well, I've nothing to lose. I might as well try. I'm not sponsored right now. So might as well go like do something that seems fun for once instead of the track and the road stuff, which had been a little joyless for a while. And then at what point on that journey, did you reach out? Because I remember, I actually remember the very first moment that we talked to you on the phone. It's funny how like, I knew we were talking to greatness. So I was like, I have to like embed this in my mind in our like small California apartment. But at what point on that journey, like after the circuaries, did you reach out to David for coaching? I don't know if I remember the, was it before US champs or after? I think it was like right around there. I was so excited that I probably like just blocked out every memory. But yeah, I mean, it was really cool to see that. So you went to the mountain, the world mound champs and you went. And this is not when people expected that, I would say, and it immediately thrust you into this spotlight. And that journey of balancing road and trail and track and next steps in your running journey and what direction you wanted to go. That must have been hard. I mean, as you're talking about reformulating your identity, was that I don't know, was there any amount of that that was feeling a little frayed? Like, because your identity is having to form on the fly, you're not getting a time to like step back and go on a silent retreat and come back as Grayson. And what I'm shocked by, just since we're running low here on time, I want to make sure it gets out is like, you know, I, so I've coached you for two separate windows here, both first and period of time. And the second time when we talked, I was like, Oh, well, this is like, Grayson, who fully knows herself in a way that like, didn't come from anybody else but herself. And like, what happened for that identity to kind of congeal in this incredible way? It's been a process and it's taken three, four years now, to kind of come that way. And I think the injury, like, maybe was the step back that I needed that I never really had last year to be like, I actually don't like track. Like, I don't think I want to do track. Um, people's fun, but I just don't think for me that it's worth the stress and lack of joy that comes from it. And I just decide like, I don't care what that means to other people, because I'm not going to, I shouldn't be doing it if I don't like it for myself. And I shouldn't definitely shouldn't be doing it just to prove people wrong. Um, which I hope I'm like, put the bar at least a point where they're like, okay, it's probably wrong. Um, someone on Let's Run can always probably find something. But at this point, they're so wrong that it would be tough. Um, yeah, and like I was having a conversation with my college coach, Cat the other day. And he was like, yeah, I knew when you found trails, like that was your thing. I kind of knew you were still looking for something when you graduated, because you were only four years into running at that point. So you're basically like a high schooler. Yeah. Um, and you just needed some time to catch up and like try some new things and figure out what you like and don't like and, um, get to this place. So I've always felt like my performance really out. I got my performances up here, but my training age was like really lagging behind. Yeah. And I feel like they're finally catching up a little bit, which is like led to a lot of realizations. It's the best thing. It's like a Subaru with like 30 miles on it. And it's like, we have so much room to try this thing. You're going to take it off-roading next week in her training log. It's like at the high end of 90 mile a week, which is scary because that's just the start. Um, so one final thing I want to talk about really quick is a ton of people look up to you. As I've said, like I think the next champion, the next Grayson Murphy is going to be someone that is inspired by you, not someone that's already here. That's how, you know, paradigm shifting, I think you are. And but when we were talking the other week, you made some comments about nutrition that hadn't been happier than I've ever been. So what is the Grayson Murphy nutrition secret? The pro tip. Do I tell them the whole thing? Oh, um, you can leave out the first part unless you want to. It's up to you on that first part. Okay. Um, so Dino nugs. Dino nugs. My fuel in my half marathon build. Yeah. Yeah. I realized that I just need to get in calories and sometimes they just need to be quick and tasty. So, uh, that was really helpful. And doing that and then still like I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I still still still too, but um, but mainly Dino. Do you have like, is it like Dino nugs and like a ton of catch up? Is there anything else like this with the Dino nugs? Are you just like straight going for them? I really like mustard and catch up like together. Okay. We should do that David. That's next level. Yeah. Well, I'm kind of thinking I need to order a lot of Dino nugs. Because this is the biggest plug of all time. Our listeners are going to get out their, entire inventory because they clearly make champions. But I wanted our listeners to know that because like, you know, I think it's easy to think that the best ever have some secret that they're not saying. And, you know, your secret is you work hard. Um, you continue to pursue your joy. You eat enough. And, you know, you listen to your own heart and you've done that over the years. And Grayson, I am so inspired by you. Megan and I talk about it all the time about you modeling the way we want to try to live our lives a little bit more and, you know, spread our own wings, our own fairy wings. So thank you to fly down. Thank you for coaching me and having me on. It's like Megan's joy compass that you talked about on your podcast. Oh, it's the best. My joy compass is going to be pointing right to Dino nugs. Dino nugs and videos of Grayson Murphy running downhills. That's what we're going to raise Leo on. That. Oh my gosh. Yeah, he's going to, he's going to be like, just can I watch ant Grayson again? It's like, okay, this is the 100th time. Sure. Other kids are watching frozen. Yeah. You're going to be his Elsa. So I'd be honored. Thank you so much, Grayson. We can't wait to see what you do next. And we'll be your biggest fans for life as you traverse the journey, no matter where it goes. As you follow your joy compass, all over the place to Dino nugs. To Dino nugs we go. Huzzah. Ahh! I'm sorry.