161. The Future of Endurance Training, Western States Follow-Ups, and Thoughts on Supershoes!

We are so happy to be with you today. Happy Tuesday. It's Tuesday. And we got those four day holiday weekend vibes over here. And in classic holiday weekend vibes, I just got projectile bombed on. Six minutes ago, it's the good weekend over here. That's our new tradition here. Usually it was July 4th fireworks. Now we have more GI fireworks coming up all over you, apparently. Well, Leo, it was Leo. Spoiler alert. It could be anyone around here. Yes. Or we could be at an ultra flashback. We could be at Western states. That's so true. So it was our baby who went all over you. I think it was my fault, probably, because I got really into it. And I fed him something that a podcast listener sent, which is an oat butter. So it's kind of like peanut butter, but it's made from oats. And because he's not great with chunky things yet, I just mixed the top end. So it was mostly olive oil, apparently. And he seemed to love it. He loved it so much. He was so happy until it came out the other end. Brendan, he was pretty happy when he was projectiling too. I was going to say he was really, he laughed. Three seconds later, which was the ultimate. I mean, I feel like it's like the best reminder. It's like the most I felt kind of good in some sense. Yeah, babies are interesting, because I feel like it is a reminder that so much of how I think about a situation is based on a narrative I'm preventing about presenting about the situation. Yeah, I was like, that must be so uncomfortable. And then he was like, all this is hilarious. This is great. That's why I need to remember in my next ultra, when I vomit, which I did the last one too, it's okay. You don't need to think about it. It doesn't mean anything for the rest of your race. And basically, my muse is the fact that Leo's still a dumb little baby. Well, you know how we smile at the top of like summits. We tell athletes, like it's dedicated in our racing all. It's like smile at certain parts of the course. Like come back to where you are, recenter. And when you get to the top of the hills, say, huzzah. Yeah, well, we should have anything that like, if you project a vomit or vomit, you should just laugh. Like four seconds later and just be like, this is ridiculous. And body, a dumb little baby. Yeah, right? Still like over learning about the world. Well, I remember it. I was like a master and she's a big. She's like a really like data-driven sort of person. And she has a lot of stuff on parenting. But she had this amazing quote that she has never felt like more like a mom when she is covered in vomit. I thought about that like four seconds later. I was like, I feel like a mom right now. Yeah. You went into a cold shower to get ready for the podcast and wash off that off. And I twirked in the shower. You did? I almost never do that. But I feel like after you get projectile vomit on six minutes before you're supposed to podcast, you really need to just like bring the ridiculous vibes. So I twirked in the cold shower and that's the kind of energy we got going on. It's the perfect energy for the podcast. And speaking of dumb little babies, let's talk about me really quick. And on the baby front, we're trying to like limit our baby discussion in general. But I need to tell you what I just struggled with, which is installing his new car seat. I feel like these car seats, it's like you don't just need a degree in engineering. You need a degree in like quantum mechanics. You need to understand things like the fundamental theories of nature. You need to break the universe and fully understand it to install one of these things. I spent 30 minutes out there. It's still not good to go. It's so complicated. I actually sent you a text of 15 minute warning that you're doing this podcast because I was like, I don't know, being in the headspace of installing a car seat like that. That's so complicated. You need to twerk in a cold shower after doing that. I did come in and took a really long cold shower. So Megan has those twerk vibes. I'm actually a little bit frustrated with myself right now. But I'm getting over it. I believe. You believe? I believe in you. Actually, my first instinct was like, we should go to the fire department. Yeah, yeah. You'll help us with this. But then you know what? I was like, it's going to be empowering for you to figure this out on your own. So let's watch YouTube videos. Let's decompress. I believe in you. Yeah. Every time I have trouble opening a pickle jar, I'm like, let's go to the fire department. I can help with this. And I actually wanted to use this as a segue to a quote from Andre Agassiz book open. We've been talking about that recently on the podcast. It's one of the best books I've ever read. The analogies in it make me strive to be a better writer. And Andre Agassiz's story makes me strive to be a better person. It's also hilarious. It's so good. Some of his writing, it's been like dropped out of funny for me. I'll be out running on a trail and just laughing. Yeah. It's projectile vomit funny. I was going to say it's actually maybe even funnier than projectile vomit. Yeah. Which from Leo's standpoint, it's kind of hard to do. So here's the quote. This comes from who became Andre Agassiz strength coach. Gil who stayed within throughout his entire career was a huge part of his journey. And this is early in their relationship. Here's what he said. How lovely is it to dream while you're awake? Dream while you're awake, Andre. Anybody can dream while they're asleep. But you need to dream all the time. And say our dreams out loud and believe in them. I love that. I mean, I think it's so rare for people to actually say their dreams out loud. Yeah. I mean, it's scary. And believe in them, like one day I'm going to be able to install a car seat. I was going to say one day that car seat is going to be so great. Also, it's in our new car too. Yeah. We got a new car to replace our stone Subaru. And it's so great. We got a new Subaru. Yeah. You know, our big suggestion here that we've learned throughout this process is if you're at the place that you're ready to sell your car. Just go leave it in downtown Denver. Yeah. Well, you left it locked so you didn't do anything wrong. That's true. But at the same time, it ended up being an awfully convenient way to sell our car just, I guess, to the insurance company along the way. And to lose several of our belongings in the process. That's true. So, like, we went for a long run this weekend and you're like, oh, man, where's my waist belt? And then we did the calculus and realized, yeah, it's probably on that adventure somewhere with our Subaru. I miss that waist belt so much. I hope they're getting good use out of it because it served me really well at canyons. I loved it. I was planning to use it forever and it was also discontinued. So, I'm kind of upshitscreet now. I take it all back. It was a terrible way to sell our car. Well, you definitely need a waist belt to sell meth. Yes. There's probably just, like, meth. I don't even know how you administer meth. I should know that from a medical standpoint. But there's probably just, like, needles in there. It's, you know, I feel like we're just enhancing the lives of drug dealers. As a doctor, you should have known how to administer meth. Not to administer meth. Is that what they teach you at Stanford nowadays? There's a whole class on drugs. Like, when patients come into the ED, you should have an understanding of how they got the drugs. How they did it. That was always my worst. Like, I did, I mean, I did decently well in med school. I did really poorly on the drug test for whatever reason. Oh, interesting. Yeah, I knew nothing about street drugs. And I felt like there was, like, when they were teaching these, there was some understanding that you had like a basic level of knowledge on street drugs. And I had zero. So the streets of Conestoga High School served you well. It did not serve me well, yes. Okay, so remember that quote. How lovely it is to dream while you're awake. What are you dreaming of anything right now? I'm putting it on the spot. I am. No, I think this year I'm going to chase a golden ticket. And I'm planning to go to Grindstone 100K in Virginia. I'm so excited for you. It's in September. I'm feeling great. I had a great week of training. I think my fitness is better than it's ever been. And I am just really, really, really excited to do something scary that's probably not going to work out perfectly. But isn't the whole point to have these dreams and believe in them. So my goal over the next like month or two is to actually believe that I'm going to win that race. Yeah. And I think it's going to be so helpful for the whole process itself. But it was cool because we were at Western States last weekend. And it was fun to see your brain burning and scheming and dreaming. Yeah. And then dreaming out loud too. I mean, you were telling people out there like, yeah, I want to do this. Which made a lot more feasible sense because it was cold and breezy. Yeah. But I mean, I'm really, I mean, I, I really believe that you can get a golden ticket. And I'm so excited to see this happen. Thank you. And do you have any big dreams that you're thinking? Very. I'm, I feel like I'm like, I'm going second. So I feel like I'm stealing your dreams over here. But I also want to get a golden ticket. So I had this realization I was doing a Hellbeast workout on the treadmill this week. So 10, 8, 6, 4, 2 minutes plus you added five by 45 seconds to the extra diabolical. Yeah. And the 45 seconds were quite difficult. So you went from threshold to creating a lot of lactate at the end. A very hard workout. The type of workout that really makes you see God. And I think once you see God, sometimes it gives you a kidneys. I always like athletes to make decisions when they're in a difficult workout. Because it really distills life into a more real thing. Well, my God was projectile vomiting. Yeah. So when you're in the middle of a Hellbeast and that sounds good and you're thinking about western states, I was like, I really want to do this. Yeah. And it was, I had that moment. I think it was somewhere around the six minute effort. And it's like, you know, I want to go for, go for a golden ticket. I want to see what happens at western states. I want to shoot my shot. Who knows what's going to happen. Yeah. But that workout after I made that decision got so much more fun and amazing. And literally every run that we've done since. Yeah. I've been like thinking about that. And I don't care what happens in the process of actually going for it. Even if you get to the races. Like who knows? I mean, I've had been on this autoimmune journey and I've been really healthy for the last six months. So it feels like that's in like the backseat rear view mirror, but it might not be. But I feel like for me, the process of like dreaming and going for it is going to motivate every single run. And I just, I love that feeling. And that's what I feel too. And so our big message is those dream, that dreaming wall you're awake. What it applies to is choosing something that scares you a little bit or excites you a ton. That motivates that extra few percent. Whatever that is. I mean, for me, the same thing happens. Like the little things is especially where it applies. Like the last mile or adding that elliptical double or doing the uphill trimel. The little things that are easy to let slip. But I want to embrace because that makes me feel like I'm living a purposeful life. So even if I didn't do grindstone 100K or even if I DNF, I would still hopefully want to travel down this process. And so I'm so excited to travel down it with you. And I can't wait to see you get back on those trails. I am so excited to fuck to crew you at these races. Oh, I'm so excited. Well, I'm so excited to crew you. So hopefully, like, want to actually, hopefully both of us get in. But if one of my biscuits in it will be fun though, because we'll have the crew journey. But I think for me, my big thing has been, we talked about this like many podcast episodes ago, is I feel like for me, I'm my best self when I'm at 98% of my running self. Like I think for me, the process of grabbing that extra one or two percent in running just is unhealthy for my psyche. It's not where I love running the most. It's not where I love life the most. But I also don't think it's great for like my long-term outcomes as a runner. And so my new challenge is to dream big. But to also remember that because that's where I think I thrive. So it's like to dream big, but not to go too wild. And I mean, it was so fun to run with you this week. And I think the world's in for a surprise because some people, they just don't remember what they used to do on trails. And so after your autoimmune journey with your heart, after giving birth, I think you're coming back with a level of maturity and grown-ass woman strength that's going to make anything possible. A mature woman twerking in the shower. Yeah, our podcast listeners are like, yeah, sure. Okay, so we have the best episode for you today. A quick roadmap of what we're going to talk about. How to feel good in long runs, talking a little bit about some of Megan's journey and how she's building up here. The power of working together and training and racing, getting into Western state stories, some fun Western states follow ups, a new study on world class endurance training, hot takes, which are really fun this week, some menstrual cycle research, and possibly discussion of drug testing and doping through some current events. I'm so excited for this one. If you love the podcast, please click follow wherever you listen, especially Apple Podcasts. Give it five stars. Support the podcast that way because I feel like we're taking off right now last week because our most listened to week ever, people love Western states' discussions. So I'm excited to see where it goes from here. Well, I love Western states' discussions and it was selfishly really fun to talk about that last week. But I'm really excited we're continuing to talk about Western states this week. I feel like we should just talk about Western states until June, I think it's June 29th next year, just keep it going every single episode. It's all about that search engine optimization. We put Western states in the title. We have a breakthrough podcast. We sell some athletic greens. Leo goes to college. Well, I'll be really curious to see what happens when we do UT&B. It's like the Western states versus UT&B comparison, which one bombs it more? Well, it's interesting because so many of our listens are from the US and Canada. That's where we hit number one every week for episodes. But in like Britain and France and stuff, I mean, we're solid. But we're still catching up. So if you're in Europe, step up, tell your friends and things. We need to get that international vibe going. And so UT&B will help spur that, I hope. Do you think we have an international vibe? I feel like we're like a little silly for the international folks. No, I think the international folks got that silliness going. Maybe not the UK people. They're a little bit, they sometimes read into us a little bit differently, though, you know, we catch on eventually. But I don't know. I like to think that we bring, we just invite everyone under the tent. We are uplifting of all foods. We just talk about fish and chips more here in the podcast. Oh, yes, see what happens. Yeah, what else do they eat in the UK? Like, haggis. I've never heard of that. Oh, I think it's something involving the intestine of a sheep. I believe our stomach lining. Oh, gross. Yeah. It actually sounds kind of good. That sounds kind of gross. Actually, this brings me back. So we were running this weekend. Yeah. And we spent about like half of the run planning what type of sandwich we were going to get. But we were running with our friend Teddy. And we realized towards the end of the run that Teddy was a vegetarian. Yeah. And we spent most of the run being like, push strummy and bacon and Italian sausage. And then some were like down the line. He mentioned to you as vegetarian and I was like, oh, shit. And the way he mentioned it was like, okay, Megan David. There's something I can tell you. No, we uplift everything. We love it all. But I was very sorry for like gushing over corned beef for literally the entire descent. His heart rate was probably so high. So speaking of that run, this week you stepped up and you did almost 23 miles with a lot of technical terrain. And you absolutely rocked it. It was so cool. I think there's some interesting reflections for every athlete from that journey. But the first one that I have is I got to run behind you on very technical terrain for some of this run. And people that have wasn't the podcast understand that you've gone on the journey with that. And you looked amazing. You looked so good that the next day I went in and ran on Green Mountain and Boulder. I set all my PRs on the descent. It's like you made me better by watching you. What happened? Because this is a big change over just a few weeks ago. Well, thank you. Well, we've been talking on this podcast that I've been struggling with technical running as part. I have felt like a shell of myself as an athlete. I've been feeling pretty good running. But put me on technical terrain, which I used to love. And all of a sudden I was like, what is happening right now? But out there, I felt like I was making love to the mountain. I mean, nowhere near Killian's level. I mean, Killian would actually truck me in a downhill running technical running contest. But I felt like I was making a little bit more of love to the mountains. It was just so free-flowing and fun. And I was like vibing with the technical terrain, which was actually pretty technical. And it was great. Whereas before I felt like I was at like a six-grade dance descending. I was like tiptoeing my way down, like staying six feet apart from rocks. And it was fun to have that new mindset. And you'd been improving based on some of the tips that we've given on the podcast. But it was a fundamental change. To the point that I was like, oh, I see the path to her being the best at this. Well, I felt like a whole new athlete out there. And it was empowering. It was so, so empowering. So my big question to you, that's a little bit controversial. And I think might jar some podcast listeners. Do you think breastfeeding and stopping breastfeeding, which you just did recently, played a role in that journey and that transition? 100%. And it's weird because I'm not usually like the type of person that responds to placebo. So I had a moment where I was like, is it placebo that I think the fact that I just start breastfeeding impacted my ability to technical trauma? But I actually don't. Like I felt like my ankles were just these like flexible pieces of shit on my legs. They were just screening and rolling all the time. But it wasn't just that. Like I felt like the ankles were my instability piece. But I had a hard time like perceiving and seeing the trails. And for whatever reason, I think breastfeeding was playing a role in that. And to me, it was fascinating because as a coach, it's like there's so many different things that feed into our physiology. And sometimes we don't even know what it is. Or we don't even know the mechanism of it. But I'm pretty convinced, which was curious to me. Well, it's wild in coaching. And it gets back to women's physiology in general. And how little is discussed and known at times. But I've seen as well that sometimes when athletes are breastfeeding, their body responds in different ways than it does after. So I've seen that too. Yeah. Let's zoom out for a sec. And what informed your decision to stop breastfeeding? Because there's so much pressure on women. And it's so courageous of you to agree to talk about this. Because like I have coached people that are like, if I don't breastfeed till my kid is, you know, at Harvard or whatever. I'm letting him down. Till he has a full set of teeth. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, not just his. And braces. Yeah, the braces. The braces are really going to kill the nipples. Exactly. Until he's going to a high school dance, he is going to be on the nipple. And, you know, that pressure is something I'm sure you felt. And so what informed your decision, where are you at with it now? Is there any shame there? Is there any of that internalization of societal pressures? Well, there was initially. So Leo is eight months old now. And I had this vision of breastfeeding him until he was at least one. But granted, in the beginning, I was so happy I could even breastfeed. I have the smallest boobs in the world. And the fact that they produced a drop of milk to me is like very empowering. But somewhere along the line, I like forgot that perspective. And I was like, well, I need to breastfeed until like a year, a year and a half, two years. Like, this is what all the guidelines say. But somewhere along the way, I realized it just wasn't serving me. Yeah. Like, Leo was, he was actually, Leo was a pretty small kid until I stopped breastfeeding. And then he like, rapidly fades right after. This is funny. I think my breast milk is like the equivalent of like Coke Zero or something. Because he was clearly not growing very well on it. Your breast milk has aspartame. It's like fruit extract, breast milk. It's a carcinogenic breast milk. Yeah. I mean, there actually some guidelines just came out. Granted, I was reading the guidelines on aspartame being a carcinogen. And it requires essentially 12 to 36 Diet Cokes a day. Which is a lot. And it's at the same level of foods that we eat every day. You mean 12 to 36 ounces of breast milk? But it's interesting in that regard. But to give you as perspective, Leo went from the sixth percentile in weight when we were breastfeeding. What is he now? When we were breastfeeding. Yeah. You did a lot of good work there, man. There are moments where he went for my food. But it wasn't necessarily productive. Granted, based on this change, maybe it wasn't that much different. He went all the way up to what percentile? He was in the 43rd percentile for weight now. So that's within a span of like a month. Granted, he's eating food. Yeah. You're basically feeding him olive oil. Yes, that's true. Confounding variables there. But no, I mean, it was really fascinating to me because it was like, I did feel, I had this big anticipatory dread of stopping breastfeeding. Yeah. I was like, I feel like actually the anticipation of stopping breastfeeding. Because I love it. I mean, I truly love that bonding time with Leo. But the anticipation of it was way worse than the process of actually stopping breastfeeding, which I feel like is true for so many things in life. Yeah. But I had this moment where I was like, okay, I'm running 22 miles right now. Leo is like pounding eggs. Yeah. And I felt like, and he's not necessarily growing as much as we were anticipating. And I was like, I just don't feel like it's serving either of this. Yeah. And so I had this come to Jesus moment and I was like, I think it's time to stop. And the process of actually stopping was way less hard than I imagined. But you know, it was still an adjustment. Yeah. Well, I mean, so I'm so proud of you for talking about this. Because even now that there's listeners that are like, that's irresponsible or what. But wherever you're at, just know that your own journey is okay. Like, if you've never breastfeed or if you decide to breastfeed for, you know, until the kid is, you know, on AARP. And all the corollaries in life too, I mean, I feel like breastfeeding is just a proxy for so many different decisions that we make in life that have some level of like, societal judgment on them. Yeah. And so it's very interesting to see for you. It's had direct manifestations almost immediately on things like technical running. I feel like a totally different athlete. Yeah. Which is why, I mean, it makes some sense, like based on like joint laxity and the way the hormones work. But fundamentally different athlete. Yeah. And so that applied to the long run this weekend, where you went almost 23 miles, which is your previous long run after, you know, postpartum had been 16. You know, these were trying to wait until this process under under like unfolded a little bit to increase your volume. And you felt great at the end. It was classic Megan fatigue resistance swag, where on the final little climb to finish the run, you were putting out more power than you did in the entire run. You felt great. Why do you think you felt so good at the end of that run? Well, partially because I was just sipping down the calories. The whole run I was taking, I fueled more than a thousand calories on that run. And also two postpartum I've recognized that my hydration needs have increased. And so I was drinking like beast out there. Yeah. Actually, it was really fun because so we were up in the high country. And mountain stream water is so fresh and so tasty. And I was just slurping it down. It was great. Just slurping that shit down. Yeah. Well, you are a mountain stream barista. You were filtering for me. It was so great. Great. I've never filtered mountain stream water before. Yeah, I didn't trust it one bit. Why? All because like, we know how you do things. Like I was like, this is probably not going to be filtered. It was so good. Megan, those microorganisms. You protein. Yeah. That's the only way to get the muscle strength. Both in and on the way out. Yeah. If you have giardia, you also have to laugh because it's like, well, who did this to me? I don't know if I've ever had giardia. Or maybe I have a permanent case. I think you're a giardia resistant. Or maybe just... I mean, sometimes you drink water at like 7,000 feet, which is a big no-no in the world of... I would drink water at any, I would drink water down in like, Raleigh, North Carolina. Yeah, I think it's all good. I think that, I don't know, the more the merrier in my gut flora. But that fueling there is a fascinating to me, evolution of training theory. So in this new phase in your athletic journey, you're focusing on 300 to 400 calories per hour for a small person. That's a lot. But that's a place that training theory has evolved a ton. We're going to be talking in a few minutes about how training theory has evolved in a scientific sense. And I think this is the big way. We were reading about Torre de France nutrition strategies. And the big place that things are different from the doping era in the 2000s that could explain some of the performance differences. Now, every athlete out there in the hard stages is doing 120 grams of carbohydrates per hour. Whereas in the old days, I was reading stories that they would do 40 to 60 grams of carbs per hour. And, you know, not to say that they're not doping now, because I think it's complicated. I do think that points out why athletes are adapting and improving at every level of the sport. Well, I love that you're using the Torre de France as an example, because recovery matters so much at the Torre de France thing. And they're going back to back to back days. It's like doing a 22-mile long run every single day. And the recovery is just as important as the performance stimulus of fueling. Yeah. And so seeing you out there bouncing back so fast was really, really cool. You've also made one more change that I want to tee up really quickly. Oh, man, I have no idea where this is going. What change have I made? It involves sometimes moustaches, often kind of weird burps. It involves a powder. Oh, yeah. That took me way too long to figure that out. Well, because you stopped breastfeeding, you could restart. Athletic greens. Yeah. Actually, that was one of the big reasons. And there were a couple reasons. I actually couldn't take one of my autoimmune medications while breastfeeding. Plus, I couldn't take athletic greens. Yeah. And the first athletic greens drink was so, so good. I love the taste of it. You do. Yeah. Which is a little strange, but it's, I mean, I'm drinking and I'm like, this is health. This is performance. This is gains. So many gains. So athletic greens. We love it so much. Drink AG1.com slash swap SWAP SWAP. Megan, you started retaking it. How has it made you feel any different? I feel great. Yeah. I mean, it's also it's hard to say because I just stopped breastfeeding. I've got lots of things going on. But I'm all about that athletic greens moustache. It's so good. Granted, you made me. So the other day, you made me an athletic greens drink. And you made it creamy. And it was absolutely heinous. It was so bad. There are certain things in life that are not meant to be creamy. And that includes athletic greens. So what I did, and what I do for myself, but I shouldn't do for Megan, is I put a serving in a half of athletic greens because I'm like really jacking it up. Then I put in some of that coffee made creamer I was joking about last week. And then some salt mixed it up, made her an athletic greens latte, which I love. She almost vomited on. It was gross. I mean, why, why coffee made creamer in there? Because it's good in everything. I do. I also, you make lattes of coffee made creamers. So coffee made creamers are supposed to be served in like, you know, small doses. You were basically creating like full milk lattes with creamer. It was amazing. Yes. It was so good. I love doing it that way. I don't know. It reminded me a little bit of your response of the old Mitch Hedberg joke, where he was essentially like turkeys and everything like turkey sauce, turkey, just be yourself. You're good as you are. Kind of like your take on athletic greens. It's like, you don't need an athletic greens latte. Athletic greens can just be itself. Oh, it's way better with just water. Yeah. So all of these pro athletes that you hear about a lot of them are taking it. We really think it helps performance and recovery. And it certainly doesn't hurt. So drink AG1.com slash swap. So I'm really excited to see where your journey goes from here. I think, you know, you're in an awesome spot and the fueling has made a big step there. They're taking it easy throughout, really focusing on the aerobic gains. Oh, I love my Z1 days. My Z1 days where I can listen to audiobooks out there. It's, I like wake up in the morning and I'm so excited to go out the door and either shuffle or, you know, get on the elliptical or get on the bike and have loads. Z1 days and it's been a new evolution in my training. Yeah. And so we both have really big goals. We'll be exploring the edges of training theory, reporting back to you. But the one concern I have with our both of us having big goals is we might never pick up the mail. That's true. That's a good point. Yes. That's what happens. I feel like as our goals escalate, we have this interesting thing with our house where things start to slowly devolve around here. Yeah. So the mail in particular, our mailbox is 40 feet away from our house. So it's not very far. It's only like a few seconds of running. It's really more than 40 feet. Oh, no. It's like a solid 60, 80. I don't know, Megan. Okay. Well, we can measure. Think about laying basketball hoopstowns. So there's 10 feet. You think it's more than 40? Maybe. We'll get the inspection after this call. Yeah. Maybe we'll settle the matter. Either way, it's only like 0.0 something miles. But it's maybe let's say, I don't know, a five foot descent from the mailbox to our house. So it's a slight downhill. And we never, ever stop when we're running because we need to get those sweet 0.05 miles back to the house of sleight down. That adds up. Yeah. Imagine doing that 300 days a year to account for rest days. Yes. That really does add up over time. It really does add up. Do you know what I was thinking about, though? So if you go around our house, we have this like rock, little like rock formation into our backyard, which leads to our back porch. We should just run around that, make it a full point one miles, and then it really, really adds up. The problem there, Megan, is one of us is going to fuck our ankles all the way from there. Say yes, is it worth it for the ankle risk? Yeah. But you also, if you go up the stairs to the porch, you add a whole like eight feet of hurt. But that is uphill and up hills are terrible. So that is a problem. Okay. So let's go to some follow ups from Western states. We're going to zoom these out so that they apply to everyone. The very first one that we want to talk about is Esther Silag, who was in third place. Total boss. Total boss. A mom, absolute beast. She had a great Instagram post that we wanted to read because I think it points out a lot about training theory and approach. And for me, it really highlighted the value of working together as athletes. Yeah. And I think this is not talked about enough in running and particularly in ultra. So I looked at this and I was like, that's actually really interesting things to glean about how we go about racing. Yeah. Definitely. So here is the post. At Michigan Bluff, Katie already suggested to work together. This is Katie Asmuth, who we coach. They were duking it out throughout the race. She started to call me quote sister. I love that they're duking out and they're like, sister, yes, sister, I'm going to crush your soul. And I think that's the point of this. And yes, I was in for that. In the previous months, we worked together on a project group at ProTrow runners, which is an organization that's kind of like a union. And I met her in person for the first time at the training camp. From the virtual calls, I realized that she was an energy bomb. From the river crossing, we really worked together. So that was at mile 78. I was in very good shape when we crossed the river. Katie was doing great instead. It took about an hour or maybe less for my pace or to bring my energy back. We were pushing in any bad move was dangerous as well as because over the hours, the body became more fragile and exposed. Katie ran with us when her pace or was left behind. And yes, we worked together. There was still time to decide. We passed age stations together and moved along. She already said it was a dream day. Her positive energy and being able to be grateful for the good day we were having while we were pushing our limits was crazy. I absolutely loved it. It helped me to make sure I acknowledged that everything is fine. My body and legs and stomach were all okay. That I was able to move ahead was something unpredictable for many, many miles and it was thanks to those last uphills where I could push a little more that I broke away. After I broke away and got to the finish, Katie arrived. An amazing time for her to. Then she grabbed my hands, put my hand up to the air and shouted as loud as she can. Mother's. And so I love that because they're both moms. They supported each other out there and it led to two of the best performances ever. So Esther goes on to thank Katie, talk about being with their families and things like that. And to me, that's what sports are about. But on a general sense about understanding performance, they led each other to the best places possible by working together. And so even if you don't have this type of relationship, I think this is a huge opportunity for all of us to think about how to optimize a performance in races and in training. Well, particularly in Ultras too. So I mean, so often we talk about this in road racing and in road racing, there's more of a draft effect and there probably is some draft effect in ultra racing as well. But in ultra racing, I feel like you take the principles of working together and you apply that to things like finding the trail together or even like sometimes in the dark having more than one headlamp is so helpful for being able to visualize things. And I feel like there's all these like, like not necessarily talked about ways in which working together in your group helps so much. And I mean, I want to go back to that drafting point because I think it's really, really understated in running in general where like, oh, it's not fast enough to cause drafting effect. But then you look at the Tour de France, what's happening right now. And on the steep climbs, they're often going five miles an hour or six miles an hour. The types of paces that you'll see in Ultras and they stay glued to wheels. And that's something that's at the very margins of human performance. So I guarantee it makes a plays a role in running. And in fact, there's a study that came out just last year in the Journal of Applied Physiology that found for a five hour marathon marathoner. So that's 11 minutes, 26 seconds per mile. It still makes a three minute difference to draft behind one person throughout the course of a race. So that adds up. You're talking about one or two percent, like it really does build up. So think about drafting, like drafting as friends, but running behind people can be hugely beneficial, not just for your mind, but also for your body. Well, especially in cases of wind, we have even gotten to the idea too that in a lot of these mountain races, there's like hardly wind out there. Yeah. I'm stuck in behind someone because I feel like that helps a ton. My other use for this too is, I love, if I follow people's lines on downhills, I feel like it takes some ease out of my brain because it's like, just make sure they're good. Yeah. Make sure that some people have atrocious lines and those are not great to follow. But like for me, following your line downhill, it's so much faster, I think, because it takes some of the mental work out of it. And I also think it's a great way to learn how to do technical downhills is following someone's line. Definitely. And taking out some of the mental work might be part of the role that we see RPE reduction and so relative perceived exertion reductions for athletes that do run with others. And I also think if it's someone that's faster than you too, I find myself. So like if you're, if I'm running behind you on that downhill, I'm like making up time in like little incremental areas where it's easy to. And this is where speed comes in. Sometimes I'll drop down to like a 530 mile coming out of a switchback to catch back up to you. And I think it's a advantageous way for me to run. Yeah. So my advice is run with people, but also run behind people shamelessly. Yeah. So athletes all the time. Is it rude? No way. No, I mean, it's not. It's not rude. But that's a great question. A lot of people feel like it is. You want to ask, I think, outside of competition settings, right? Like, you don't just draft off someone's wheel and biking without saying, hey, is this cool? Just find a random person. I do that sometimes. But in races, you grab the wheel. You grab wheels. Like, this is not a personal journey. Otherwise, those people can do a do time trials. You're out there competing and hopefully competing like Katie and Esther did. But be with people. Stay behind them. Do the types of things that keep you out of the wind, keep you mentally engaged. And then, yeah, you can take the lead and push it and have them be with you if they want. And there's no pressure to even talk out there. No. Yeah. Just sit back there. Yeah. If it's like running with you, sometimes you'll get farts. It's like, yeah, thank you, gift. Yes. And other times, you're just talking about corn brief and prescribing. It's perfect. Okay. We wanted to give another story from Western states that we weren't a part of this sport for. Like, this was before, honestly, this was before I even became a runner. But it's one of the most wild stories I've ever heard. And I feel like everyone should hear it because I don't know how many of our listeners have ever been exposed to it. And when I've heard it, be told, I feel like it's almost become this like a powerful story of Western states. But I'm like, if I haven't heard this until just recently, I'm sure other people haven't either. Yeah. So here's the story. It involves Brian Morrison. In the 2006 race, he was an up-and-comer. He was young. He was pretty unknown. This was his big opportunity. It was one of the hottest days on record. I went back to the Almanac, and it think it was 101 degrees in Auburn that day. So not the hottest, but right up there. And he had that breakthrough day, which can happen at Western states, especially, where athletes can come out of nowhere to break through, like Kat Bradley in 2017 when we were coaching her. No one expected her to win that race. And yes, she was incredible. And she's had a great career. And she's just going to incredible things from now. But at the time, people didn't know. And it was a hot year, just like that. And so he gets to the track, the final 300 meters, and he's in the lead by like five minutes. And he just starts to stumble. Imagine that, 300 meters to go. You have a lead by five minutes, and all of a sudden, your body gives out. Well, it's so horrifying, because I imagine there's a part in the brain that when you get to Roby Point, which is like mile 98.9, and it's mostly downhill, and then a 300 meter leap in the track, they're like, the race is done. Yeah. And I think that's what's so unique and hard, but also special about 100 mile races, is it's literally never done until you cross the finish line. And how hard that must be, in some sense, like, is that going through runners brains while they're out there? Yeah. I mean, I imagine it is to a certain extent, even running with people in from Roby Point in the top 10 this year, did you notice that none of them really let themselves experience hope and joy, until they saw the track, like, or even like a hundred meters to go and track? Yeah. But especially then, like, when people saw the track lights. And I made sure to point it out. I was like, see those track lights, they're welcoming in, they're beckoning you, you're almost there. And eventually people were good. And it was a cool year, so it was a little different. For Brian, his body started to fail him. And so it was taking him five minutes to get this partial lap. And then less than a hundred meters from the finish line, he collapsed. While leading Western states 100. His crew helped him up. He ended up getting across the finish line with that help. And how many minutes later? I don't know exactly, but he still finished, he crossed the finish line first. Yeah. And then was disqualified for outside assistance, which makes sense. That's the rules. Okay, I'm sitting here getting goose bumps. I'm like, getting this internal sense of like, fuck that, like, you know, I feel like I've seen so often in like cross-country races where someone stumbles towards the finish line and a competitor helps them up. But that's like part of sport. Yeah. But it makes sense. I mean, you know, you need to cross the finish line, and you need to cross the finish line under your own power. Yeah. But can you imagine your big opportunity, you get just like with in-touching distance of it, almost. Like, the type of thing that you could do under any circumstances theoretically, and you can't do it. And you're disqualified. And yes, maybe at some level, you're like, okay, I'll get back there. That athlete will get back there. I'm sure that's what our message would be on the podcast had this happened this year to somebody. But for him, that's not what happened. Like, this was his opportunity, and it slipped through his fingers, and it took him years to finish his next 100-mile. He had several, yes, several DNFs in the process. And it actually brought me back to the Andre Agassi book open, because Andre was talking so much about how momentum built up, and kind of like sent him on these trajectories throughout his career, and he went through this like really low point at one time early on in his career. And what he would do was he would go to places where he felt comfort at the arena. So he would go to places like Stratton, Mountain Vermont, and he's like, I feel at home here. I feel empowered here. He'd go play exhibition matches, and how often as runners, like our momentum builds, and we carry those, that momentum with us into races. So I feel like my suggestion for him would be to just go do backyard races. And I take this to athletes all the time, like, if you're struggling at some point in your career, like, return to these places that are fun, return to these places that are low pressure, and see what you can do, or to shorter distance races, and see what can happen. But man, that's so hard. And what a beautiful story, though, about like human perseverance, because 10 years later, he went back and he finished Western states. This time it was in the middle of the pack, like his trajectory had changed. But to me, that's like a really cool full circle moment, that even when the triumph doesn't happen, like the objective type of triumph, there is a light at the end of that tunnel, but just know that, like, the tunnel can be quite long. Oh, yeah. But it's also a really good narrative, too. Yeah. And I'm like, I feel kind of bad saying that, because it's like, that comes with so much struggle. But it's also like, we're sitting here talking about a story from 2006 at Western states. And outside of the story, I never would have known who won 2006 Western states. But he had a great quote on this, and I think it kind of captures that narrative idea. He said, when he asked, if he like, thinks about this often, he said, oh, without a doubt, there's hardly a day that goods by without me thinking about it. I certainly don't dwell on it, but it's never far from thought. It's hard not to think about what could have been. But I've also come to appreciate the fact that it's an incredibly unique story. The most haunting piece of it for me has been the what if element. Especially when I stood at a point when I was racing to win, I couldn't shake that thought that I may, without warning, collapse at some point if I pushed too hard. And I didn't know how hard that may end up being too hard. Even knowing that I wasn't racing at a place like Cascade Crest, I still thought about the possibility of passing out somewhere along the way. I don't know that I'll ever be able to dispel that worry. Wow. And it points out, I think, that the narratives that we form around ourselves, especially when they're via trauma, I imagine there's a huge level of trauma with that. Let's go back to you on one of your breakthrough runs when you were last training for a golden ticket race at Banderra back in, whenever you know that was, 2021, you had heart pain. And that set off, you know, years of problems where we were worried about that you would even live, is that something that is living with you in the same way that the collapse is living with him? Well, I think it lives in like the very deep depths of my brain. And I mean, sometimes there'll be things that come up that will like make me think of that, whether it's like a sudden bang in my chest or something along those lines. But I feel like every run and every step that I take away from that, it becomes burrowed, deeper and deeper and deeper into my brain. But I think it's always, it's always going to be there. And at times it will come to surface, depending on the moment. Yeah. It's always for people to move beyond those traumas and the narratives that then form. Oh, talk about it. Talk about it. Yeah. Be open about it. I mean, I've talked so much about my heart that I feel like I've set it free in some way. And there's also no pressure too. It's like, I can't control that. But I think talk about it. Then also just take sure of time. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I feel like time helps. Time and just like, you know, getting that strength and momentum of doing things helps so much. So just keep putting yourself out there. Yeah. Yeah. Keep dreaming. Keep dreaming. Keep dreaming and keep putting those dreams out there. I've seen you dreaming while you're awake, you know. And that's really scary. Yeah. Yeah. OK. One more thing that we wanted to mention from Western states was this was just interesting. At first, Hill, after Tyler Green came through, a Nike athlete, relatively early in the race since I think he was in second or third of that time, Nike like rang a bell and said, we're giving away shoes. And they were giving away Nike altrufies. Their new super shoe. Their carbon-plated shoe, which is bonkers expensive. That line was so long. How many shoes were they giving away? Do you know? I think 90 of them. At least. It was so many. Which, such a cool viral marketing technique. And what I loved about the viral marketing technique too is that they kind of had these like cryptic messages about what's going to happen, but not fully sharing it. But they put them inside portapoddies. Yeah. And I feel like it's such a classic ultra running experience to do viral marketing involving portapoddies. Yeah. It was like concert announcements, almost, where you didn't know what was going to happen. And then they gave away all of these shoes that have been, you know, rumored for years. Like the Nike pros have been wearing them at Western states. I think for multiple years already. And they're finally coming to market. So I thought it was very cool. It was kind of a moment where you're seeing trail running hit this mainstream of virality and importance to these big companies that is indicative of the broader journey. I was going to say, if you didn't think ultra running hit mainstream and virality, just say Courtney DeWalter. She has made us hit virality. Yeah. We need to put her in the title. I guess I search engine optimization. But you actually got your hands on a pair, right? One of my athletes was heavily involved in the design of them. Kyle. So he gave me a pair, actually, I didn't have to wait in line before this happened. And I was so exciting, excited about it. And to break them in, I've been walking around the house and cleaning in them. And as I'm doing it, I'm like, this cleaning needs to be 4% better. Everything I do, these eggs I cook need to be 4% better. So, but actually, I'm sure with carbon plate trail shoes, I think it's probably more around like one to two percent just because of the nature of the train. But we still need studies. Yeah, I'm fascinated to see what you think of them after you break them in and start running. Oh, they're so good for cleaning. I'm really excited to take them out this week, yes. They're so good for projectile vomit from a baby. Unfortunately, I was not wearing those. I would have been really sad if you got his projectile vomit. They're like beautifully white at the moment. So they're only going to be white for another like three days. We'll see. They're designed fully differently than like the Nike Alpha Phi or something. Yes. Yeah. That super shoe to me is so much softer. Well, that would be you would fuck your ankles. I mean, wearing the Alpha Phi is like the equivalent of like breastfeeding for like four years in terms of the stability that you would have in your ankles because the stack height is so high. And so that's another place as we think about the future of this sport and the future of endurance sports. How will super shoe technology evolve to apply to trails because no shoe is there yet. I don't think the Alpha Phi is truly there yet. But we'll have to see based on now if these shoes are getting out into the wild, will they become ubiquitous like they have on roads? I don't think so. What do you think? I think it depends on the nature of the race. So I think for races like UTMB where it's like so rocky and I don't think they matter quite as much. So certainly the downhill speedy miles of western states, I do think they're favorable. But what do you think about the ultra flies versus the Hoka tectons? So we recently cleaned your man cave, which was a journey and a half and in the process of cleaning your man cave, I created this whole wall of your closet for Hoka tectons. And there's like 15 pairs there. From multiple years, this isn't just at once. They're all worn in. They've all gotten hundreds of miles in them. But I don't know. I mean, I think the tecton probably suffers from the same things that the ultra supply suffers from. Just being like a little firm. Would you run 100K in them? 100K the tectons? Yes. No. Not a shoe. Not a shoe my body would break down. And I don't think there's a massive difference yet on variable terrain. So I mean, we'll see. We'll keep you updated, especially as these shoes gain technological investment because if a company is willing to do this with their shoes, they're also willing to put in $500,000 to research and development. And that's when you start to see these breakthroughs where alpha fly style technology that we're seeing on roads starts to come to trails. Because right now, I think a lot of these trail carbon shoes are essentially like guessing and testing. Yes. Rather than... Which is a little scary when you have like, you know, ankles and eviculars and, you know, posterior tip tendons down there. It's like, oh, we're going to guess and test on these, you know, these precious items of my body. Yeah. And I mean, guessing and testing is probably still very research driven. But when compared to the road shoes, it's just a different world. Exactly. Like, and so I'm really excited to see where it will go, but I'm not exactly sure yet. We might actually have a little thing on road super shoes later on that we think is pretty relevant to training. I think super shoes too are an amazing segue into some of the science that came out, some amazing new science that came out this week that we wanted to highlight for the podcast. So the science was in the International Journal of Sports Physiology and Performance and it was called the Evolution of World Class Training, the scientist's view on current and future trends. And I love this because what they did to structure this study was they asked two questions to 25 of the top sports scientists, 20 men and five women, which I think is funny. We need more women's sports scientists. Yeah. But you should have asked you, I feel like you would have been the perfect person for this. Yeah, I don't know. But the two questions that they asked and this kind of informed the topics that they highlight in the paper are what are the most important trends related directly or indirectly to the training and improve performance of the world's best endurance athletes over the past 10, 15 years? Yeah. And then they followed that up with what advances will help contribute to keeping to improve this endurance performance over the next 10 to 15 years. Yeah. What are the big things that we're looking at in sport? And I think this is fascinating because I feel like we spend so much of our time on a podcast speculating about this stuff. Yeah. And so I think it's going to be really fun in a futureous sense. So you've ever heard of, um, futurists? Yes. Yeah. So these are people that just predict the future, essentially, which I think is the best type of job description because you would love that. I would love it. You would actually be so good at that. You predicted some things that I've been like wild, whether it's like politics or even like sports or things like that. I'm like, David, this is a little scary. Yeah. But I'm wrong so much, but the thing was protection, but you dream big and you dream big out loud. Exactly. It's very much like Andre Augustine. And if you dream like in a specific enough way, people will only remember the correct dreams. That's masterdomicist secret. So he's either really vague or does so many that over time people are like, oh, he got this one thing right. And it's like, actually, he got a thousand things wrong. You're just not paying attention to those. Um, so this study had a retrospective element, which we're just going to focus on for a second. That we're interested in a prospective element. What's going to change in the future? So retrospectively, the big things they thought that were driving development were more available information. So people are sharing science constantly. Well, I feel like the whole thing of like having like open AI and open data, like so many times now when you go to publish a journal article, they ask you to publish open data sets. And that's amazing because it's like, people can go back through, they can mind for things. Um, I think the, the how we're collaborating and sharing together as scientists is really, really improving. Depends on the field. Depends on the scientists. Some people are still very close minded. But I think in general, it's improving. And especially in exercise physiology. It seems pretty good. It also seems like, too, we're taking cases from real world studies, like athletes, and having a lot more like case studies from people at the top, when the Norwegians are doing this, they're really, it creates a bias sometimes because it's like, well, who are the people that we're hearing from? But I do think this openness from high level athletes contributes as well as not just scientists. And I think that gets to the second point, actually, that we're focusing on retrospectively, which is the use of multidisciplinary teams. So when you're looking at these athlete case studies or whatever, you're involving the coach, you're involving sports scientists, um, you're involving statisticians and all of these different things and the nutritionists, they're all coming together to try to not just isolate one variable. And I think that was the problem in older exercise physiology is we would do these control studies to try to isolate one variable that would over just by necessity oversimplify the entire field. So multidisciplinary teams. And the number three is tech advances. So things like being able to monitor how athletes are actually responding is from everything from lactate monitoring to HRV, to, you know, the application of power meters and cycling, all of that. And I think, statistically, we have a lot more ways to deal with big data. And I think that's feeding into like the tech advances, but we're also having better ways to analyze this machine learning. So it's really cool to see everything coming together in this way. And now though, I think we're going to get to the really, really fun part. Oh, I'm excited to run real pleased. The sexy future is part about where things are going. And so I think it was a little hard for the researchers to summarize everything that people said. What I would be fascinated by is to actually just go to the answers that the research provide. Yeah. Because I imagine those get into more specificity. Actually, they should provide this in an appendix. Yeah. I would love to see that. Yeah, they might actually be. I didn't click on the table there. Yeah, I was going to say we should really, it's one thing. We, we like go through the, the articles here in great detail, but going through the appendix is like a whole other thing. Yes. Yeah, exactly. Okay. So the very first one, I'm just going to read a quote. And reliable use of advanced technology for evidence-based monitoring of training, recovery, and performance is expected. I'm really excited. Well, it's interesting because it's like improved technology was part of the retrospective of what they're talking about retrospectively, but it's also part of the part of where we're going prospectively. And I don't think we even know exactly what the world's going to look like, but a few things that we are pretty confident on, one, they're probably going to get continuous lactate monitors relatively soon. Oh, that's going to be so exciting. And when that happens, the big data that's going to come from that. Yeah. And you know, we always talk about lactate essentially dictating intensity-controlled intervals. But where exactly people lie on those curves varies so much, and even the testing protocols are subject to a lot of error. If we can start to get continuous monitors that provide objective data on people's physiology and then incorporate with that, with heart rate and other variables that you can just get from your watch, it's going to be pretty game-changing. And I think that's probably coming sooner rather than later. I assume they're going to be illegal in racing. So we think about continuous glucose monitors, which monitor your glucose internally, continuously. And it's interesting data that it's been really hard to parse apart and provide recommendations for athletes if they're not working with an exercise physiologist at all times. But those have become illegal from UCI and cycling. So I imagine continuous lactate monitors are even a step above continuous glucose monitors in terms of the input they provide for structuring a race or structuring how we do things. So I imagine illegal in competition. I don't hate that. I hate that CGMs are illegal for the UCI. Well, OK, I think CGMs are a little ridiculous. But continuous lactate monitoring is just going to totally change the nature of how we do things. And I feel like from a level of fun, I don't want to see them legal in competition. We shouldn't push against the progress of technology if it's not changing the underlying physiology. Like I think doping or whatever, that type of technology is bad. Oh, of course. You know, across the board, or even like gene editing, anything like that, that changes the way physiology works for athletic perspectives. I mean, I feel like gene editing. Oh, yeah. Decure diseases. Decure cancer. All of that stuff is great. This is not a profound statement on CRISPR more generally. Yes, yes. It sounds amazing. Sounds cool. Shouldn't be applied to athletics. Yes, OK. It's going to be a complicated world. And maybe that's actually a future trend that's scary is that we're going to start seeing and maybe we already have in some ways that we're not aware of, changes in athletic performance via gene editing that are going to boggle the mind. Which is so scary. But I also feel like it's changes in athletic performance, but I'm really curious about changes in long-term health because it's like you edit one thing to be better at athletic performance. What does that do to the body in the long-term? That really scares me, like being a medicine and understanding what they're doing in terms of CRISPR. OK. You just drop in the mic saying, being a medicine, here's my perspective. Not being a medicine and not being an expert. My perspective is that a lot of those concerns end up being overblown. I don't know. I think about GMO foods. Like GMO foods. Oh, but that's when you're genetically modifying a blueberry. It's totally different than genetically modifying a human. I don't know. Genetically modified corn is no different than genetically modifying my cardiovascular system. Sure. Sure. Number two, the one to think about a little bit is remote technology to gauge your muscle fiber types. So we talk about muscle fiber distribution, essentially fast twitch via slow twitch, though it's really complicated as we talked about last week. More and more, they're starting to learn that you can do this remotely through like the calf muscle and things like that. And those are just going to become more reliable and more readily available. Once you do that, you're going to know a lot more about how to train. So like the swap approach is largely designed when we talk about it in a baseline sense for athletes falling in the middle of the scale, like intermediate athletes, but very slow twitch athletes can train a little bit differently, very fast twitch athletes need to train even more differently. And so understanding where you are will no longer need to be in approximation. And once that happens, training theory will then iterate and iterate and iterate. And I think it'll be pretty wild. Well, I feel like we could have continuous monitoring of muscle fiber typology. It's, I mean, continues would be kind of not necessarily needed because muscle fiber typology changes on a much slower time course, but you're really curious. Like every birthday to go on and be like, what's my muscle fiber typology doing? Yeah. Add some candles on the cake, change your muscle fiber typology. Yeah. Well, that'd be my dream. Right. That'd be so good. Or change, but it's also the words that we use for muscle fiber typology are still debated. Is it, is it, are we changing? Are we changing how we recruit them? Yeah. You know, there's so many different nuances in terms of how we talk about muscle fiber typology that whenever I do. So I'm, I talk a little bit slower because I'm being like, I know I'm, I'm being conscious with how I use my words. And I think that's also going to change too. We'll understand much more of the mechanisms behind changing muscle fiber typology versus recruiting muscle fibers and how all those nuances look. And where are we measuring, right? Yes, exactly. Every muscle can be different depending on how you measure it and where you measure it. And that applies. Number three is AI, the use of AI. I think that the, the researcher cited that and I think, you know, if we're moving towards a future with something like AGI, so generalized artificial intelligence, that will change training in ways we don't understand, even if we don't actually achieve AGI. So where is that going to go? I don't think it looks like in putting into chat GPT, how do I train this athlete or how should I train or what should I consider? But I think what it will look like is incorporating all of this multidisciplinary data in a much more thorough and sophisticated way. And who knows where that's going to go, especially when you have more data for it. Well, I'm really excited for that. Do you know how I've been using AI recently? How? I've been using the photo generating AI. So you like type in things that you want to see in a photo. Yeah. And I've been putting celebrities or athletes and I say, so and so trail running and I see what comes up. And it's really fun. And then I use this in presentations because it's always a good story. Well, that's a, maybe it's a way we can broaden out the appeal of trail running even more. Yeah, right. I just put like Steph Curry trail running and he looks like a baller chewing on his mouthguard running on like a 10% 11, 10% terrain. It's great. I think he more like Zendaya trail running. Oh, that would be fun. That would be really fun. I'm going to generate that after the podcast. Yeah. Perfect. She should definitely get into trail running. Okay. She's too sophisticated for that. Yeah. She's beyond yes. Okay. The next big overarching trend that they said in this quote, more detailed knowledge about how to precisely use combination of training loads, environmental stressors and nutritional interventions to optimize physiological adaptations and performance is expected. I love that. I love that they highlighted combinations because I feel like so much of our technology right now is siloed. Yeah. Like our continuous glucose monitors not talking to our continuous lactate monitor. Yeah. And what's going to happen when we combine those together and use that integrated data to understand more about the body and the athlete. Yeah. And just applying it across different approaches. Like, I mean, I think one of our powers as coaches in trail running is we take everything from road running, cycling, Nordic skiing, and then mix it with trail theory and our own personal experience as much as possible. When that can be done in like, you know, more thorough ways and is done in this really open-minded perspective, anything is possible. So that's more of a general one. And that brings us to the next overarching thing in this quote, a more advanced understanding of athlete and equipment interactions, lean to greater tolerance of sport specific training and improved performance. Athlete equipment interactions. Yeah. I love that term. Well, I think it's also curious to you because I think not every athlete responds to equipment in the same way. Like I've talked about it on here, super shoes. Some athletes, very few athletes, but some athletes are negative responders to super shoes where some athletes get like 6% from super shoes. And I feel like taking that, it's like personalized medicine. Yeah. Personalized athlete equipment interactions and understanding where each athlete falls to help them figure out what's the best equipment to use. Yeah. And I think for running in particular, this is essentially a super shoes thing. Yeah, exactly. And I don't know if equipment also covers things like nutrition, I doubt it. But for super shoes in particular, we had a big thing on Patreon last week where we were essentially telling athletes, you should probably invest in a pair of super shoes for your workouts. I have seen athletes recover better, respond better to training. It's not just, oh, I go a little bit faster. It's that increased speed is accompanied with less muscle breakdown. And I think improved performance over time because of the way it encourages power generation. So even if you're just doing a few speed workouts, if you can afford it, it's worth having one pair of super shoes that you break out for those sessions. And we're seeing that across the board too, so that discussion came in the context of a Patreon listener talking about the fact that they were a back of the pack runner. Yeah. And they were saying like, you know, I can afford super shoes. Is it worth it? Like to go from a 12-minute mile to an 11-minute mile. And yes, it's worth it. Definitely. Because the same principles apply. And I think that's one of the really exciting parts about super shoes is, no, these are not just for the athletes that are winning races. Yeah. It's for athletes all across the board and like treat yourself like an elite athlete over them. Yeah. And elite athletes at first, they didn't necessarily train in super shoes that much. And over time, every time go to the track and boulder and see these road groups. Oh, all in super shoes. They're all in super shoes for the workouts. Yeah. And I think there's a reason for that. And I've experienced that personally. I was the lead adopter. I was resistant to the idea of road super shoes. And then I wore them for a workout. And all of a sudden, I wasn't sore the next day. And especially as I age, I think that's made a big difference. So I think super shoes are going to evolve and especially as we apply them in the training context and use those changes to leverage more performance gains and use them two to three times a week at most. Oh, even once per week, I think for a normal. I do have some athletes that are like, oh, these are fun. I'm running them every day. And I just don't think that's great. And I would say only for the workout section of workouts, like warm up, cool down, and everything else. And then for hard workout, once a week, maybe twice a week of for road runners, consider them then. Well, we talk about the idea that stripping down is really fun stripping down and twerking is really fun before you go and progress from your warm up segment to your workout segment. Had some super shoes in the mix and you're going to feel so fly. Oh, my God. That feeling when I put them on, I'm just like, bouncy, bouncy, bouncy. Well, I still don't have them yet. I have never done a run in super shoes. And I'm really excited. I'm waiting for my mind to be blown. I cannot wait for yours. I'm a super, super virgin. It's like, what the fuck is happening? Oh, my God. Megan, there's an old basketball player named AC Green who said he was going to wait till marriage. And eventually he got married. And there's all these memes out there. And that's going to be your experience. You're going to be like the movie, the 40-year-old virgin. If you remember the sex scene in that, that's going to be like you when you put on super shoes. You just get lost to the ceiling. I'm so, so excited. I'm going to be proud of you. Okay. And then the next one, the overarching thing, a greater emphasis on the prevention of health problems. This was largely framed in the context of fueling and how that relates to performance. So relative energy efficiency in sport? Yes. And female athletes and understanding female physiology, because I think the health problem thing has largely been swept under the rug in performance history. And I think one of the big reasons is that, especially up until the mid-auts, maybe then a little bit later, doping with so prevalent in elite endurance sports that athletes were playing by different games. So Tyra Hamilton's book, The Secret Race, essentially talks about these really, really terrible ways that they viewed their bodies in health. And part of the reason they could do that is because they were on testosterone, EPO, and every other drug under the sun. So if you have relative energy efficiency in sport and you're taking testosterone, it probably didn't matter. Yeah. But we're not in that era anymore. And it's like, we have to feed our bodies, have to feed our bodies, have to understand female physiology and where that's going. Okay. And then the final overarching trend before we get to our own is improve scientific knowledge among coaches. And I think that's really happening now that essentially you have to be, like, conversational in the science, the underlying biochemistry, but then also just how other coaches approach it, how other physiologists approach it. And I think that's part of the openness that we were getting to before. Is that like, there's been much more collaborative effort amongst coaches to be part of these studies and to be part of the conversation. And I feel like it's helping a lot, but it's like a bidirectional change in that like coaching is informing the research, the research is informing the coaching, and that's so cool. I can't wait to see where that goes. Okay. So our future trends applied to training theory. Let's zoom out in the general sense, let's zoom in on the specific sense. My first one is that I think that we're going to see that age-related decline is not essential in the ways that people have assumed. So there's 100%. 100%. There's a study that came out recently that found that over 50% of age-related decline was just related to declines in training, not in declines to VO2 max, which is incredibly hopeful because I think athletes sometimes self-limit in that context. So I think as we improve all of these different things, we're going to see that athletes can continue to progress sometimes into their 50s and 60s after they experience hormonal shifts. And I think we're starting to see that already in how fast people are going. And we're seeing that on the track in Rhodes. Kira Demado this weekend, she just set the world record, the American record in the half marathon at the Gold Coast Marathon, Gold Coast Half Marathon. It was so cool to see. And I think we're seeing that. She's like late 30s. Late 30s. Yeah. And she also came into running, I mean, she had a strong college career, took a lot of time off, had kids, came into running a little bit later, and it's so cool to see that happening. Definitely. But I think also even more so in the ultra-community we're seeing that. I mean, Meg Morgan at Western States at age 25 was the second youngest participant in the race. I think about like, you go out to the track in the 1500 meters, the USA is coming up. So many of those athletes are going to be under 25, and I feel like that applies even more to ultra-running. Totally agree. So invest in yourself long-term. Number two, I think women for female performance is going to improve a ton. And I think those performance improvements will be greater than men. Western States being a great example of that. The 10th place time has gone faster and faster and faster every single year by huge margins. And it's only improving more. The compression on female and male performance is increasing at ultra's. And just across the board, as we start to value women as not just small men, but something unique unto themselves, we're going to see more and more performance gains. And I think that's coming from a couple areas when I think the science supporting women's health and performance is building and growing. And so we're having stronger training theory to help support women athletes. I think women are just also going for it in terms of pacing. It's like, with every US record, every world record, every Courtney DeWalter out there, and elevates and pulls the entire field of women behind them. So I think that's really exciting. I just think there's so many different ways in which women are being elevated. And then I also think the fueling the body discussion. And I think we're having these discussions with athletes at younger ages so that now the next generations of sport that are coming in have been talking about fueling for a long time. Like this is a conversation that just starts like post-collegedly or late-collegedly. These are conversations that are happening with high school athletes too. Yes. And I think that that's number three is the fueling element here. So the increased emphasis on fueling, and you're leading the way both for women athletes and fueling and all of these different things. And that being applied at young ages is making sure people have maximal bone density that they can then use later on since so much of that like 90% or something is formed by a young age. And if you think about that statistically, if we are having more athletes that are coming in and are more robust to handle high levels of training, we're having like a larger denominator in terms of who is competing and of that larger denominator, we are going to have faster performances across the board, but also faster performances at the top level too. And then those are going to pull the field forward. So it's really fun to think about that fact of like we're creating more robust athletes across the board. And those robust athletes are staying in sport longer, which is making our pool stronger and more competitive. That's so cool. And I mean, the fueling element, your experience this weekend with your long run, when you're fueling 100 grams of carbs per hour, it helps you put out more power in the run, get broken down from it less. Of course, you're going to adapt more. So that's the thing to understand with fueling your body, both within training and outside of training, is it's not just performing better in that session, it's how performing better and adapting better helps you then improve beyond that session and build the next one and the next one. And because training just becomes this little marginal gain stacked up, the fueling element and how that has fundamentally shifted both in the Torque France and running and everything is going to lead to athletes not having to be pure genetic outliers to succeed or dope to succeed. It's going to lead to a much, much larger pool of athletes that are going to be pushing the limits of human performance. And I think for me, the final point on this too is mental health. Yeah. I feel like for the first time in history, we're having these truly open conversations about mental health and how that feeds into physical health. And I think how it feeds into fueling too and how we structure racing and all of these different things. And so I think the more open conversations and dialogues and mental health are also contributing to that larger denominator of people staying in sport and participating in sport longer because we're being more open about it. Yeah. The holistic approach to athletes, even as we emphasize the scientific end, is the maybe most important part of the multidisciplinary teams. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Because like everything we're doing comes from the brain, including things like RPE, how hard you're willing to push things like that, like last week we had a discussion on mental health. And, you know, I think I actually misstated my point. It's been wearing on me a little bit. Oh, I didn't, we didn't talk about this. So yeah, I didn't want to get you stressed about me being stressed. But I said something last week about like, you know, you want your like productive things, your performance to come from a place of positive self-image. Yes. Yes. But I think what I meant by that is not that like there's a positive and negative type of thought pattern. It's just that we need to understand that the source of athletes' powers for each of us often will tie to things that might not lift us up, right? Like my negative mental health, my anxiety gives me my strength, my depression gives me my strength or whatever. But in reality, that stuff is inherent to us as part of us no matter what. Oh, and but that part can be part of the love mix. Is that where you're going? Exactly. And so for me, it's like, it's accepting that, not pushing it away, but making it part of this positive motion. And just understanding that we can claim our power not by thinking that we can't address our mental health. Yes. By addressing our mental health and hoping for a future where it is more like, you know, directed toward love of self and others. So that's been worrying on me just a little bit, if he's like, well, I'm so glad you got to talk about it. Yeah. I did you wake up at 2 a.m. Thinking about this. I did. You should have just tapped me on the shoulder. Let's have a conversation. Yeah. Well, my thing is I do want, you know, we're the ultimate inclusion place for people with mental health struggles. We both have our own mental health struggles. And I think sometimes athletes get down on themselves just for the existence of this. But most of it is something you don't control. But the one thing we do control is an understanding of like setting your intentions to just love yourself a little bit more every day. And that won't affect your athletics negatively. It will almost always be the most positive force in long term trajectory. And I think that being applied in a broader sense is one of the reasons we're going to see athletes progress and progress and progress into the 30s, 40s, 50s and beyond. Well, I'm curious to see if that's at all correlated with torquing in the shower. We should totally do. I feel like it's a lot easier to accept yourself a little bit more. We're in a cold shower and torquing. Projectile of how I'm going to out those self-fitting thoughts. Yes. Consume the oat butter of positivity. Is that your mantra? You know how they tell you to like breathe out, stress, breathe in love. That should be yours. At 2 a.m., at least. Okay. Do you want to get on to some hot takes? I love these hot takes. I'm so excited. Do you want to start with which one? You have some highlighted here. I'm not sure which one. There are some really good hot takes. Okay. This is my first one. I have no feelings about poles for your average runner. But it's a former competitive Nordic skier. Nordic skier with poles for a steep, long-running race. You best watch out. Okay. I totally agree with this. Yeah. And you know why I agree with this? It's because we often go and race in steamboat Colorado. Yeah. And steamboat is such a beautiful, fun place to race. But it's also home to the highest population density of winter Olympians in the United States. So many like Olympian Nordic skiers are from here. And every time you go to stand on a start line, I'm like, who from Nordic skis is going to take me down? Yeah. You know, we were talking about remote identification of muscle fibers. Yes. And remote identification of like Olympians in winter sports. Exactly. Yes. Because we can always guess. But we're not sure. And it reminds me actually of when I saw Sophia Lockley before Broken Arrow last year. And I saw her descending and I was like, fuck, that girl is going to win. And she, in fact, went on to get an incredible race. But I could almost tell immediately she was a Nordic skier. And I was scared. Yeah. Well, this, I think this hot take brings up my feelings on poles. And like, I'm just a little down on poles. I went into a big thing on Patreon about this. Not because they're not helpful, but because I don't understand why poles are legal. But other things that are supplements to human physiology are not legal. Yeah. Like continuous lactate runners. Yeah. No, no. I mean, like roller skates. Yeah. Like poles are totally different than, and I understand, yes, I want sports to be as inclusive as possible. But I also don't want sports to have to be different than the sport is because at that point, it's not running. It's pulling, which is a different thing. Well, she just put like springs on poles or something, like four percent poles. Where can you go over here? Where are the carbon fiber spring poles? Like instead of poles, just let me bring a sled for snowy racers. Then that's a little bit better. Well, I disagree a little bit actually, because I have seen so many my athletes be helped by poles. Yeah. I'm a little more pro pole. No, of course they help. That's the thing. Yes. That's my problem. They help. Yes. Yes. Yes. I'm doing my own hot take. It's like, if we're supplementing human physiology with non-human physiology things, why are poles allowed? But that's like the only thing that's allowed in this framework, right? Because it's like, you're extending your arms by four feet in this really interesting way. It's like, what is the difference between poles and let's say wearing stilts? Well, it's probably because our trowener god was a Nordic skier. That's true. That's the person who's making all these decisions is probably a skier. As you can tell, I'm understanding more and more that I need to embrace the pole element of training for athletes competing internationally. Yes. And you have them trained specifically with poles, correct? Yeah. And I've been doing more of that on the treadmill. How do you structure that? More on the treadmill. Poles on the treadmill. Yes. First to apply outside. In a gym setting, wouldn't it be hilarious to just bring poles to like crunch fitness or something? Well, you can just like put something soft on the edge of your pole, like a half-tense pole or something like that. And it just gives you practice if you don't have a Nordic skier background. So then you can get used to it and then apply it outside. Because if you're trying to apply it outside for the first time, you're just going to be uncoordinated, not understand it. It'll give you a base to understand how to use it and then apply outside. That being said, I do want to take a step back and be like, swap how to Allison and Drew finish at the top of the world's standings on the toughest course imaginable. That course was gnarly. Without poles. Exactly. Both of them are probably going to use poles in their future European races. So they didn't learn that. Great. We don't have the counterfactual. What would happen if they had used poles in that race? Well, you can't do that much better than the best, right? Sure. Yeah. And so I think it does point out that some of what I always call an urge American runners in particular, who might not have grown up using poles, who might not be a Nordic skier as this person pointed out, don't play to other athletes' strengths. Play to your strengths. And just make sure your weakness is not going to sabotage the race. You do not win races with your weaknesses. You win races with your strengths. For American runners, that's almost going to always be climbing up hills faster because you're running more than your European counterparts. American athletes can win. We just need to embrace that strength while raising the floor by improving hiking via poles, rather than being like, I need to do everything via poles. Because then you're going to just try to play the game of these athletes that have grown up with these appendages, these fake appendages. If you're doing that, you're never going to catch up because it's like trying to be an adult on set swimmer who starts swimming when they're 30. It's always going to be tough to compete with a person that was swimming when they were two years old. Well, do what I think we should do. What? We should get Leo a pair of poles. He's just going to be walking around at age one with poles all around everywhere, just preparing him for UT and V someday. Oh my God, Megan. Isn't that genius? Mind blown. My opinion changes on poles. Once we make Leo into the bionic superstar. Well, it's also actually this morning, he's been like loving walking and running around the house. I'm going to work on my hamstrings because I have to bend over the entire time and support him. This morning, I was like, oh, I should just build an exoskeleton so I can save my hamstrings, but no exoskeleton. We should just give him poles. Well, Andre Agassiz book open talks a lot about his father. Honestly, it borders on abuse. I'm not sure if Andre Agassiz would call it that, who had him hit a million shots per year. And he jerry rigged this entire setup to launch tennis balls at him at a million miles an hour. Which they call the dragon. Yes. As a result, Andre Agassiz hated tennis. But he did win like 22 majors or something. So similarly, Leo, treadmill, one and a half years old, poles, uphill, a million steps per year. Do you want to do this? I'm so excited. 10,000. We actually, on Patreon, in a discussion about 10,000 strides per year, it comes a lot easier if you start at young. Yeah. So let's do it. It might hate running. But he's going to win UTMB. And honestly, what's more important, loving running or winning something that has zero prize money? The projectile vomiting at UTMB. Perfect. Okay. Number two, evening running is so much better than morning running, running at sunset is where it's at. Oh, fuck that. Yeah. I don't know how people do it. It's wild. My legs would be so heavy at sunset. Also, I wouldn't sleep at night. Yeah. It is so hard for me to sleep at night if I run after 5 p.m. Yeah. And there are different physiologies. Also, I love burritos. Yeah. It's, I love burritos at lunch, including pastrami and bacon at lunch. It is so hard to run on that stuff in the evening. Yeah. The man's got all you're training. Me too. I always tell the evening runners, try the A.M. for an extended period of time, see if you like it. And I say to A.M. runners, keep doing what you're doing because evening runners don't know what they're doing. But I do think it's interesting. I love it. Okay, next one. Stop judging people based on their body and for God's sake, keep your commentary to yourself. And this was in all caps. Yeah. I agree. The commentary is the worst part. Oh, the worst part. Commentary and anything is the worst part. Yeah. I actually checked my Instagram messages the other day. And there was this guy that I, he was like lumped in like, I don't usually check my Instagram dams. Yeah. But he was like lumped in the other category. I forget what this called where I like don't see them easily. But literally he had commented mean things on like 30 of my past Instagram stories. And it was like all this like running commentary and I was like, damn. What did you, how did you respond? Did you respond? Oh, I didn't respond. I just blocked him. Okay. Yes. Yeah. That's a good, good general piece of advice. But I mean, coaching athletes, I think the problem is that there's this urge sometimes in sports to comment on bodies because bodies are the things doing the activity. Even if it's positive. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's still hurtful. It's a big problem, even in like the NBA or something. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I just think we need to stop that in general. Like there's no purpose for it. There's no productive nature of someone commenting publicly about someone else's body. That, that athlete can work with their coach, their nutritionist, everyone else to do what they need to do. You assume that they're on their good journey and you never say shit about somebody else's body. Unless it's Pulse. Unless it's Pulse. Cause Pulse are technically appendages. So you're technically commenting on their body. So you're saying those are sexy polls? Is that your say? We got just like a spell or like fit Pulse. Those, those polls are real straw. Those full, polls are chunky polls. That's very good. But yes, never comment on people's body. And remember, your body is perfect as it is. It's so easy to judge like even this morning, I found myself like thinking about my love handles. Did you really? Yeah. Your love handles are, you know, well, you don't. Yeah. You're allowed to comment on my body because you're my wife. I was just going to say you are so sexy. All of you. Yes. But, but the point is like, you know, we're all thinking these thoughts almost ubiquitously. And the key is not indulging those types of things over time because, you know, you're just going to end up hating yourself no matter what. Like Andre Agassi in his book is talking about, you know, losing his hair and how much self-loathing he got from that and how he didn't like parts of his body and everything. Like, this is something everyone experiences. Try as much as you can to love what makes you you and what it allows you to do the things you do. Well, I was just wrapping up the elliptical yesterday when I was listening to Andre Agassi and he was about to go into the part of losing his hair. And I got really excited because it's like, there's parts in my body. And I'm like developing more wrinkles and like aging more and I was like, this conversation will be so helpful. And then my elliptical ended during Leo's nap time and I couldn't listen to it. I was so sad. But it's coming ahead. Well, one quote that he did have about body stuff that I do uplift is he bet, I believe it was Perry or someone like his business manager who he commented on being a very, very, very hairy man. I should know his, Gil, not Gilbert, someone else, Ben, his coach, whoever his coach wise. Yes. Sue, Frank, compelling podcasting, Megan, but it was a very hairy guy and he said, if he wins this tournament, that guy needs to shave his body. And Andre Agassi's quote was that Perry or Gil or whatever, or Bob or when you shave your chest, you're going to feel things. You never thought you'd feel and I do up with that. My chest right now, my chest hair is very long because life has been busy and I haven't had time. But maybe after this podcast, I'm going to shave it down and I'm going to feel some things, Megan. I feel so fast. I feel like a triathlete. He's so good. So narrow. Okay. Next one. The reason that the car thieves slash inspirational geniuses stole your car is because it was the only way to get a swap bumper sticker. I like how these people think. Yeah. I actually found, so I didn't know what we did with our swap stickers, but we got our new car yesterday. Yeah. And I found one in my jacket and I was so excited and it was very ceremonial putting it in the back of our new car. Yeah. So we're going to have another bumper sticker. Hey, if you're out there near a car thief and you want a bumper sticker, we'd have a new Subaru. You can try. Well, you can also just try taking the sticker off without the car. Yeah. It's probably a whole lot easier than like hotwiring your car through a mirror, but it's a lot less genius. It is a lot less genius. And we need to sell swap bumper stickers. In fact, we are right on the verge. We are gearing up with gear and merch. I still love from you. I got so excited. It's so fun. There is going to be the coolest, like racing type jersey that is going to be very awesome, inclusive, fun, but also performance oriented. We're going to be doing it with rabbit. We're not waiting. I'm so excited. I'm so excited. Okay. Next one. Final one, I think. Humidity is a complete bitch. The only way to acclimatize is to sit in a slow, roasting convection oven. And this comes through in the Pacific Northwest person visiting Florida in June. Anyone visiting Florida in June, I don't know how much decision-making went into that. Yeah. I don't need her. Not the place you want to be. Sometimes you can't avoid it, though. That's true. Sometimes Florida back. Actually, we have avoided going to Florida successfully together. Have we ever been to Florida in our relationship? I don't think so. I went before we met. I did too. And then I stopped going. Yeah. Oh, maybe you have saved me. Yeah. I don't think we're ever going to bring Leo to Disney World together. No. You've been my Florida Salvation. We'll go to Disneyland. That's in California. Yeah. That's great. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you, Megan. You have delivered me. We should have written it into our wedding vows. Yes. Is that I love you forever and ever. And we will never, ever go to Orlando. Exactly. Brandon, the US Olympic Trials marathon is at Orlando. Oh, true. Did you hear the news that they're having the Olympic Trials marathon at noon? Wait. That is just diabolical. And it's dumb. Also, it's medically stupid, too. Why? So I guess they're theory. Maybe. I probably just have to do a TV and they're not thinking about athletes. But I think they're theory is that the Olympic marathon in Paris in June in July is going to be hot. Yes. And so they want to do it in hot time in February. Yeah, but not like Florida in the winter. New and hot. And it's the winter. So like none of these athletes are going to be acclimated to heat. You're not testing their heat acclimation. Well, I'm pretty sure the person that decided this probably lives in a convection oven in Florida. It's very much like the person that governs on poles. It's just a Nordic skier. I don't know. I think the person who decide this is just not giving a shit about the athletes. Yeah, probably not thinking. And it's so frustrating when the shit happens. Like, I've become more aware recently of places where I just don't think they're thinking about the athletes. Well, also, they're just miserable. Yeah. Like the Olympic Trials, I think it's actually really cool because it's like, it's selects for a much larger population of people in the marathon that can run and join it. And it's like, it's a really fun, joyous experience. And Florida at noon in Orlando does not sound fun or joyous. It doesn't find fun joyous literally to sit there and spectate you. Yeah. So our big message is, Florida is hard. If you live in Florida, sorry. But what are you going to tell your athletes that are racing that? Just go enjoy it. Don't try to optimize performance. Like, we're going to train hard. I mean, it's different for Grayson because I think Grayson. She could. Yeah. Yes. She could make the team. Yes. Okay, you said I didn't. Yeah. I don't want to put pressure on her. Where she's at, drinking wise. Yeah. But, you know, for them, I'm just going to say, okay, we treat this like Western states. You know, we do the full heat acclimation protocol. We do cooling, especially during. And oh, my God. Does it actually think I'm going to have to go to Orlando? Yeah. We're going to go to Orlando. Oh, no. Okay, but Grayson is a great reason to go to Orlando. Is Grayson a great reason to go to Orlando? I would do anything for Grayson. You would? Yes. Anything. Also, Grayson, I'm sure Grayson is listening. Grayson, this could not be better conditions for Grayson. That's true. I am doing the math on this. Grayson, I feel like, is going to perform so well in heat. All right. This shows our love of her athletes that we're willing to go to Florida. Yeah. We can write it out of our wedding vows. Yeah. We'll just write Grayson in. We'll do anything for Grayson Murphy, including going to Florida. Just astray. Unless Grayson says otherwise. Okay. Do you want to do a study or get straight on to listen to the court? Let's get on to listen to the court because it's holiday time. And we're doing this while Leo naps. Yes. Okay. And I think he's going to be awake in like four minutes. Let's take a look at right now. What is Leo doing? Let's get to the listeners while I scroll down to listener corner. By the way, I scroll past like three pages of delightful topics. We have so much good stuff coming ahead. I'm looking right now. He is currently sleeping face down. This has been his new sleeping thing. And I go in periodically and flip them up, right? Because I'm afraid he's not going to breathe. But then he just three seconds later goes back to sleeping face down. I was looking at him on the thing while I was running the other weekend. Like, can you please just roll him over? And you're like, you're such a good dad. I'm like, you reminds me of that song. Face down in the dirt. She said it doesn't hurt. Or something like that. That's what his soul is singing. I guess he sleeps the entire time. Face down in the dirt is his vibe. Before we get to listener corner, actually, join our Patreon. Patreon.com slash swap SWAP SWAP. There we do a bonus podcast every week where we're going to talk about a lot of these topics we didn't get to. Answer a lot of questions. Do other fun things. We're also sharing a lot of videos there now, which I think are really fun, whether they're from races or from our own lives or from training. I think people have been really enriched by that. And it is the best place to sport the podcast. So patreon.com slash swap SWAP SWAP. We do rapid fire questions on this podcast. I'm actually thinking now we just had so much fun with those hot takes. Yeah. We should bring in two hot takes every week to Patreon as well. I like it. Yeah. Then we have a huge reserve built up. Yeah, exactly. We need to go through that reserve. But keep sending us hot takes. We enjoy them. Yes, the other topic I really want to talk on next week. And we keep pushing it back. This is the bottom is on drug testing. Yes. Just this past week, an entrepreneur announced the theoretical enhanced games, which is Olympic Games counter programming, where they're not going to have drug testing at all. Which is a heinous idea. Yeah, it's such a terrible idea. That's a horrible idea. But I do think that it raises some interesting questions about how we treat athletes within this process. Yes. And it's like the Orlando decision. So like I've had some thoughts and hopefully we can push the conversation a little bit forward with how we can be more respectful of the humanity of athletes. Yeah, but not by allowing them to dope it in the next game. Yes, but it's like how we have conversations with athletes surrounded us. Can we make this more collaborative? I don't know. I'm curious. Yeah. And we'll see. Okay, do you want to get on to the corner? Let's do it. Okay, here it is. Wahoo! I was just reading an article in Trowener called Seven Body Image Resolutions for Troweners. This is one we covered actually many years ago. Something about the positive tone seen familiar. I then saw that you lovely folks wrote it. I'm a college student cyclist and runner currently training for my first ultra right now. It's going to be a 50 mile race later this year. Oh, heck yes. I struggled with rectifying my love for endurance sports with my bigger muscular body frame. I started listening to Swap about six months ago and just wanted to send the world's biggest thank you for making the trail world so inclusive and positive. It has been so helpful for my mental and physical journey as an athlete and I recommend it wherever I go. Keep being your wonderful selves. Oh, this means so much. And we love you. Yeah, we would love to. Yeah, and I love that they recommend it wherever they go. I like to think of them like, unfortunately they have to go to a funeral or something. And they're like, for this eulogy, I would like to recommend the some work all play podcast. It'll make you a little bit more comfortable with death. For this eulogy, I support that body in the casket. It's a perfect body. It's beautiful. And I uplift it fully much. Oh, I'm not going to go that joke any further. But I think that this point really does, you know, get to what we were just talking about. It's like this person is saying that they have a bigger muscular body frame. And most athletes by statistics are dealing with something like this relative to maybe some of the people that are idolized on like some running magazines, though not all. And it's so key to accept yourself in that journey because your best body for performance is going to be the body where you are your strongest. And for some athletes, the strength is looks totally different than others. But for you right now, this type of person doing that 50 mile race is all just embracing those muscles because that is what gives you strength. And the muscles are what move you across the trail. Well, the muscles are what let you make love to the downhill mountains. Yes. It's so important to make love with strength. You need more cushion for the push. Exactly. When making love for mountains. So let's all embrace our cushion no matter what that looks like. I'm giving my own little love handles a big squeeze of joy. Oh, they're beautiful over there. They're so beautiful. They're so great. Is what I'm doing beautiful right now. It's a little creepy. It's a little creepy. It's a little creepy. But you know what? I like it. Yeah. Well, just wait till I get all this chest hair off right now. It's going to be sexy in addition to being creepy. I'm so excited. We love you all. Woohoo. Ah. That's a great bucket.