173. Grindstone 100k Lessons, Jim Walmsley's Training, and Marathon World Record!

Woohoo! Welcome to the Summer Call Play podcast. We are so happy to be with you today. Happy Tuesday! It's Tuesday! And we're coming back together on this Tuesday. We've been apart for so long and I have so many stories to tell you. It's been so weird. So I left on Wednesday. It was my very first time being away from baby Glio since he was born. I thought I saw, did you have tears in your eyes the night before you left? I thought I saw that. I didn't want to call you out in the moment but I was like this is sweet. I just had some allergies Megan. I'm a man. I don't cry about baby stuff. But yeah, it was very strange. And then leaving you at the same time. We both left baby Leo here with Megan's mom who's the greatest. So it was a very strange weekend in that front and in many other fronts. Yeah, do you want to talk about grindstone 100k? You put yourself out there. Shot your shot. I'm really proud of you. And you also shot your ankle. Yeah. If you were an ankle, you would be shot. If you were a horse, you would be shot. That's so true. So we're just going to continue things rolling it out. Oh my God, that was the Kentucky Derby. Yeah. I wouldn't have made a pass the back stretch. Chris, your powers of recovery because that ankle was a giant sausage looking thing. Yeah. That would have gotten a horse shot for sure. And you're walking around. You look pretty, I mean, it still looks, it's pretty sausage-y. Yeah. But it's looking a lot better. So let's look down at my ankle right now for those that didn't follow either at all. I actually seemed like I recovered well from COVID was doing pretty well. You tested negative the night before, which was so exciting. Down to the wire where you were still testing positive the day before the race, like the morning of. And then that night, no, I was fully inspecting on FaceTime. I was like, I'm sure there's a fate line. I took a test and showed it to Megan on FaceTime. And I got a great video of you just peering in. So for context, for everyone that might just be tuning into this episode for the first time, I had this big race planned all summer, had a lot of calamities going in, but ended up getting to the start line feeling good and then sure enough, at mile, like eight and a half, got quite a good ankle boop, which was okay. I probably would have survived that, but then at mile 11, got one of the worst ones of my life. If eight and a half was a boop, I think 11 was a boop. Yes. My ankle got straight fucked. And so right now, we're looking down at it. It is quite thick THC. It's sexy. The thick ankles bring all the girls to the club. Yeah. There was a moment where I was unsure if it was smart to stop, because I want to keep going. So the really, really bad one was coming out of the mile 11 and a half age station of 100k. Yeah. So, you know, pretty early in the race. I'm like, oh, well, ankles always get better. I'll keep going. It's a long race. I'll excel. So after a few miles, I realized that wasn't going to happen. And I still had like seven miles to go to the next age station over pretty technical terrain pretty far. And it proceeded to be one of the most painful, soul-exploring experiences of my life to try to navigate on this ankle. At one point, I looked down. And, you know, my ankle was covered with a sock. But the entire ankle was spilling out the sides of the whole shoe. Oh, my gosh. Like a muffin top ankle. You don't want a muffin top ankle. Okay, but muffin tops are the best thing to eat. That's true. Yeah. I would not. I would eat right now. It looked like a blueberry, because it was already starting to just get discolored. So I survived. It was inexperienced. And I have a few takeaways from it. It was quite an adventure. I mean, in the big scheme of things, I had big dreams for this race. And that was a let down. But it also really made me think about life and everything that goes into sports and all that. And I think it'll make me a much better person in the long run. Well, you clearly went through like a spiritual quest out there because you came away from that. We just all of these brilliant thoughts. It was like your brain was exploding from the seven miles that you walked through these technical trails and thought about life and process life. Because one of the first things you said to me in the airport as you met me at my gate and were like reuniting is Megan. I just want to read more fiction. And you're like, I thought about this very deeply on the trail. And it's like such a wild thing to think about while you're out there on this like spiritual quest is books. Well, I mean, that was a microcosm of everything I thought about because that experience in sports in general are great for ego death. You know, it's always a term used in like Buddhism or things like that where you essentially subvert your sense of self to something. Bigger than you. And I think sports is great for that because why was out there? You know, I've said these big dreams. I thought things were going great. And you're so fit. Like I think that's the really hard thing. And that's what broke my heart, especially when you had COVID is like this has been one of the best training blocks of your life. Yeah. And I think it's sometimes a little bit scary heading into a race knowing that you're so fit because it puts like this. And I wouldn't say it's like increased pressure. Yeah. I mean, the stakes are a little bit higher because you're like you're where your are is so could be so big. Maybe it's partially that I think also, you know, anyone that steps up to a race and has goals no matter what those goals are. You're making yourself vulnerable in some way. Yeah. And so it doesn't matter if you're going for a win or just trying to finish or whatever. You have these big goals and then they get dashed so quickly. And like the ego death element of it is essentially making you take a step back and be realized that whatever narratives I was putting on it before, whether that was golden ticket or whatever. It's all dust in the wind and grounded me in what really mattered and what was important for that for me at the moment was the extreme pain. It was so painful on the little walk for seven miles that like I found myself doing a bunch of these verbal ticks. At one point I was out loud humming the mission impossible theme song. Where did that come from? I don't know. I was like. It was just to like deal with the pain. At one point I said out loud as I took a step onto my ankle and it was so painful. That's some spicy fraud chicken. Where did that one come from either? I have no idea where any of the shit came from. It came from deep inside of my brain. Like something that evolved back when we were single self organisms to deal with stressors. So, you know, all of that made me kind of take a step back. Think about a lot of different things. You know, the type of coach I want to be, the type of person I want to be. All of these elements that can kind of fall by the wayside. As much as I want to just, you know, be present and be kind in all of these things. I think, you know, the context of life and the stress of it can make you just think about logistics and all these other elements that aren't that important. So, I came away from that wanting to be the most loving husband possible. Which you already are. I deleted Twitter from my phone so that I'm just not doing dumb scrolling and not being present. And then finally, I decided I want to read more fiction so that I can learn through, you know, these experiences of imagination. So, I essentially had a psychedelic experience. Mushrooms got injected directly through my thick ankles. Well, how cool is it that sports can lead to fiction? Yeah. I think that's like some of the coolest narratives out there. And so, when you had this experience, I was in California and it was so hard for me to be away from you. As you were navigating grindstone 100k. Like, I've been at almost every one of your races. Actually, for me, it was grindstone about 115. Yes, yes. It's pretty much a fail. You did a great job in love my race. Yeah, I did. I had moved to the front. I was feeling pretty strong. You know, that thing said, I do think I went out a little too hard, which was also an interesting reflection. Not because it felt hard. Like, it wouldn't have gotten hard until the end. But looking at my heart rate file on the climb, I hit upper end Z3, low end Z4, without realizing it for just a very short period. But that is wrong. And it also points out probably that before this race, I had gotten a little bit to in it for remembering. I think I lost sight a little bit of the full process of covering 66 miles, which is the length of this race on rainy tough trails. And I was thinking a little bit too much about like putting myself in contention and things like that. Well, how much do you think the golden ticket impacts us? Because I actually had, I just had a conversation with an athlete. And this athlete has been fifth or sixth, at several golden ticket races. And I feel like it's helped, the golden ticket has helped structure and motivate a process for her, which is so exciting. But I feel like also in some sense too, it changes the context of how these races are raised. Yeah. And it changes the context of like, if athletes are doing these races, like, would you have done this race? Coming off of COVID, like knowing everything that was going on and knowing kind of like the technicality of this course. Like, I think it's beast coast trails and you're amazing. I mean, we grew up running beast coast trails. But I think your true skill set is on like fast, run-able trails. Would you have done this race if it wasn't a golden ticket race? I like that. That was very kind, socratic method. Yeah. So, you know, in law school, when they're asking you questions, they ask a question that kind of has an implied answer. And that's exactly what you did through that. And you're exactly right. I think, you know, there were a number of different things that went into it that made it not the right choice. I don't think it was, actually, I'm gonna say, I don't think it was the wrong choice. COVID, Megan. I mean, like, you knew that I probably shouldn't have done it when I got COVID that close to the race. And I did get a little bit to in it in terms of... Golden ticket wise. Or like... Well, just in terms of wanting to shoot my shot at a time when perhaps I shouldn't have. So, I'm very proud of myself because I bet on myself. Yes. In a way, in every single step of that process, I bet on myself. But sometimes you don't bet on yourself when you're like one of those division three colleges that are playing the University of Alabama in football. And I think that's kind of what I did. I was one of those teams that gets paid $2 million to go to Alabama and lose 89 to nothing. Which is actually an interesting thing about division one sports is that the big teams will pay the small teams to come to their university and get their asses kicked. And so, I think I was one of those teams in the locker room being like, we're gonna win! We're two on Sanders over there. Yeah, you're actually going to Oregon. And as soon as I got the COVID test, it was always gonna be unlikely. And I'm very proud of myself because I lived my principles in a bunch of different ways. But I think it also pointed out that in living some of my principles, I lost sight of some others in just like health being coming first. The process coming first, the long-term process, all of that. And so, that for me is the best reflection ever. Setbacks are so good for the soul because it makes you just take that step back. And so, I'm so thankful for it. I mean, after the race, I had so much gratitude because I got to see the entire race come through as I was in my cave of pain. And it was so fun. I got to see so many podcasts listeners, so many amazing people out there doing this incredible thing. And then I got to go to every aid station and cheer and help crew people. I was rubbing things on people's legs. It was awesome. I got to feel out so many different people. And I mean, I'll never forget that. Even more than if I had had a great race there, I think. Well, I'm so proud of you because I feel like a true athlete's character comes out when they DNF or have a tough race. And you handled this so beautifully. Thank you. So, I was in California. It broke my soul not to be there. But I started my run and your tracker hadn't come through. And my theory was like, you love crinkling your race bibs. And I'm like, oh, he totally just destroyed his tracker. This is like a classic David Roach thing. So, I was holding out belief as you weren't coming through that mile 25 aid station. And as I'm out my run, also, and I see like the name David Roach appear on my watch. I'm indicating I got a text message from you. And I was like, oh, no, this is not good. And I called you on Altatrial. Or you called me on Altatrial in California. And you were just like, it's funny because like my heart was broken. Like I was so upset you were going through this. But the like perspective that you had on it. And you are out there cheering on athletes as you were talking to me on the phone. And I was also so proud of you. And Phil was so much love at the same time. That the rest of my run was fascinating because I also had a spiritual journey. Reflecting on running and love and why we do these things. And like, thank you for handling this so beautifully. I mean, thank you. But at a certain point, you know, you have to laugh at yourself. Yeah. And what I always try to ground myself in when something like this goes bad is that it's a comedy, not a drama. And as I'm suffering through, and it was literally a tropical storm out there. It was like all these variables coming together. And yeah, it was, it was curious. I'm at the top of the mountain freezing, tropical storm. My ankle is the most pain I've almost ever been in. Like I've told you it's wild. I've had so many bad experiences recently. Was it worse than a stomach bug? So you just went through kind of a very nasty stomach bug, which then I got. We've had a rough couple weeks here. What was worse? An ankle pain or stomach bug? Stomach bugs always worse. Because like in a stomach bug, I... Well, I feel like it's full body. Like ankle, you can kind of, here's my theory, is that as you get closer to the head, ailments hurt worse. Like for me, like shoulder pain is a lot worse than ankle pain. I've had like shoulder surgery and things like that. So I feel like stomach is more like full body experience. I think the general principle for me is if you could amputate it, it's not as bad. Right? Yeah, you probably, you probably should have amputated this ankle at the point. The way it looked, perhaps. But, you know, you can amputate that. Maybe you can amputate your shoulder. You can't amputate your stomach. So, yeah, a lot, just going through that. It was a spiritual journey. And it was a very funny spiritual journey. And to everyone out there that was following along during for me or rooting against me, like thank you for being around for that journey. Because, you know, hopefully one thing we do on this podcast is share the highs, share the lows. If you've been here with us for three and a half years. We've had a lot of, I would say, actually probably even more lows than highs. Actually, no, we've had more highs than lows. Well, it's been very fun. Yes. But objectively, we've gone through a lot. We've gone through a lot. But we've also had like an amazing kid and comebacks and race wins. Oh, and that's the best. Yeah. Like, I honestly, I'm happier now than I was before the race. Actually, you're happier now than I've almost ever seen you. No. So, you met me in the, so as we were like coming back together after both of our trips, you met me in the airport. And on your screen, kind of like you know when you go and you're waiting for a rental car at the airport and they hold up a sign that says your name. Yeah. So, you had written out on your computer, Megan Roach is beautiful. As you were studying, they're waiting for me. And you just looked like vibrant and happy and soulful. And I'm so sorry that you had to go through this experience. But like, gosh, like you, you just seem like you've been through a spiritual journey. And it's cool. Well, I think that's the coolest thing about sports. And so for everyone out there, as you're making your decisions, the reason we say, shoot your shots, bet on yourself, take these big chances, is partially in doing it. You're setting yourself up for constant failure. We talk about that all the time too. I had one of the biggest ones possible. Not only did I fail when I had put myself out there about my goals and been very upfront about them, but I failed so early that it was like there wasn't any potential silver lining to it really, like from an athletic perspective. Oh, from an athletic perspective, there is though. You didn't ruin your body. It's true. But what I mean is like from a narrative perspective, how about that? Yeah. Like, it happens so early. It's like, oh man, all these carbs and nowhere to put them. And that really does strip you down to your core to a certain extent. And I think what I learned about myself, and I have dozens, hundreds of times in my athletic journey, is that when I'm stripped down to my core, I love myself. And so as I'm out there suffering, I'm like, I do love myself. And you love, I think you love others so deeply too. And I think that love of yourself is imperative for the love that you give to others. And my gosh, the way that you are out there cheering on runners, the way that you've come back and have been, I mean, you're always like so invested in Leo. But I see this like new like dad spark and energy in you. And I love it. I got that dad spark. Oh, yeah. There's dad spark plugs. So it was just really cool to see the grindstone 100 K2 in these really tough conditions. On this really tough course, just to give shout outs to the Golden Ticket winners. Lottie brings Devin Yanco, Caleb Olson and Caleb Bowen got Golden Tickets. We should name Leo, like our next kid, if we have a kid, Caleb. Yeah, maybe really the Caleb's are crushing it. Change that to his nickname. Good story about Caleb Bowen, actually. He was there for my second terrible ankle. At this point, I had already gotten a little down. But the second one was so bad. Actually, after both, I'm in the middle of the woods. I'm one of them on my fell down and like, eight shit. But I scream as loud as I can. Motherfucker. Oh, you added it. So for me, my, my eyes say fuck when I, but motherfucker is like, that's when you know you've got to be shot as a horse. That's my ankle judgment zone. Unless I say some really terrible epithet, I'm okay. And that, like seriously, like if I just make like, out, it's fine. If I scream motherfucker in the woods, it's a little bad. But Caleb stopped, got down on one knee and it's like, are you okay? And I was just like, go on without me. You're gonna do great. But it was a very cool moment. And everybody was like that. Lottie was displaying so much joy on every single aid station. That even when she was running a little bit farther back in the field, you knew it was gonna be a great day. And then all throughout the field, just saw so many examples of courage and highs and lows and things like that. Points out why this sport is so beautiful. You get to see people go through everything and come out the other end. And you know, you're the same person you were, but somehow you're a little bit different. And for me, at least that little bit different has like shaped who I am. Also, this race course itself seemed interesting because it was like, you had these super technical sections. And then sometimes it would open up into like faster, runnable terrain. And I'm always curious as to like how different types of race courses reward athletes. And I think these athletes are gonna be set up to do quite well at Western states, giving kind of like the style of trail running that this race presented. Perhaps I think it's tough to know sometimes. I think they're all amazing athletes. So that could be the reason. But I think the course itself, you know, it was really fair. And one of the weirdest part actually of my experience when it comes to like my senses is the race. The race started at 6 a.m. and we had headlamps on it. And then once I got a little bit lighter in your headlamp wasn't doing the work. That's when I just couldn't see very well. And so my ankle stuff like, yes, you know, it's frustrating. And maybe there's some stuff I can do. But like I literally could not see the trail at times. And it almost felt like something with my eyes. Well, you're actually, you're uncomfortable driving at night. Yeah. And I always thought it was an excuse because you get tired and you're like, Megan, can you take the wheel? But I think I think there actually might be something there. Maybe you should get your eye chucked. Yeah. Maybe you should get your eyes checked, motherfucker. That's a really good comment. And then the final little thing I thought about as this ankle happened, you know, I got lots of really nice messages. A lot of really constructive messages about things I can do for my ankle. And I also think it points out some limitations that we all have that are unique to ourselves. And, you know, I've tried to come to terms with over time. And I think we all have to. So for me, my dad growing up was really into sports, played a ton of pickup basketball, things like that. And eventually he had to quit basketball altogether because of his ankles. And he got into cycling and became a very good cyclist. I actually, I didn't know this background. Yeah. And he always told me that my big limitation in life was going to be my ankles. He's convinced that it's a genetic thing. Everyone, every male in his family has had incredibly bad ankle injuries. And, you know, so I think part of it is understanding that whatever limitations were served, whether they're something like this, that your ankles just are kind of shitty. Or, you know, your VO2 max is like really low or whatever it is. And it's just something that we're have to handle and have to make the best of. So for me, I'm not going to let this get me down. I'm going to keep shooting my shot. I'm going to keep doing technical races. And I'm going to keep believing because, you know, and I'm going to try to do the things I need to do. I was going to say ankle PT. Great, and my dad did say you should get surgery. Oh, I don't think so. No, I'd agree. Let's not make those ligaments tighter so then you can rep them again. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, there's a lot to come from this. I'm really motivated for the future. But right now, I'm really motivated to heal because there's ankle still thick. Well, ankles are overrated appendages. Yeah. That's my hot take. I spray my ankle all the time too. And I found myself sometimes when I'm sure running, like, anticipating an ankle spray. Yeah. And it's one of those points that I'm like, Megan, I just have to clear that thought for my brain. So I totally feel you on those ankles. That being said, like, for me, when I spray an ankle, I feel like it never goes full boom to the point where I can't walk on it. You should all just spray it like six more times when I'm able to get to the finish. And the full boom ankles. I just, I feel for you. Yeah. Well, so it was quite an experience. Do you have any other little things to tell me before I move on into, like, I don't know, a farm upstate or wherever we put people with these types of ankles? Well, just next time you're coming, wedding dancing with me. Okay. So, while you were a grandson, I was at this wedding. And again, it was like so hard to be apart from you. But I also do feel like it makes those moments of coming back together even more magical. Yeah. Like, we left Leo with my mom and my sister. And it was so cool coming back with him. But I feel like for me, one of the best gifts in life is having Leo be cared for people that I love. Yeah. And it's like sharing that community of love. So it was hard to be apart from you. But next time you're definitely coming, wedding dancing with me. Well, maybe while trying to do the stanky leg, I would have torn the kilis. Well, maybe you would have strengthened your ankles. Oh, no, but I'm saying something terrible could have happened. That's true. So, yeah. You know, I think all in all, the future is bright. And I'm so excited. I'm so excited. Okay. So we have an amazing episode for you today. We're going to have a few more things about the Grindstone Wonder came in. Talk some Jim Womsley takeaways from our big interview aspect. Oh, that was so fun. So fun. The best sports story of the year that you might not have heard. A fascinating cycling periodization study. Talking about the world record in the marathon. 211 insane for women. That's bananas. Mental health and coaching. And finally, hot takes. We have a bunch of hot takes today because I feel like after that experience, I just want to talk to you about random shit. That experience, you came up with like 25 hot takes. And they were all really good. Okay. So we asked our Patreon crew about different hot takes. We got seven pages of Google Docs hot takes. And I just did the first 10. Those are just the first 10. We literally have like 400 of them. So I can't wait because some of them are spicy. Maybe at some point, we released a bonus episode that's just hot takes. I love that idea. So that was going to be when we were feeling sick. Yeah. Last week or like two weeks ago with COVID, we were like, Oh, well, like our backup episode option can be recording a whole thing of hot takes. But we should just do that anyways. That would be so fun. Wouldn't it be fun? And just rapid fire back and forth. Okay. Okay. I don't know how the listeners all feel about hot takes. And our Patreon crew writes them. But I love them so much because it's essentially an opportunity to hear you unvarnished. I'm like really weird topic. I'm not 100% unvarnished. You're pretty unvarnished on the podcast. I'm like 95% unvarnished. Yeah. Okay. So patreon.com slash swap SWAP. There we do bonus posts. We do bonus podcasts every single week. We have 70 of them built up. So I guess that's like a full many days worth of podcasts that you can go listen to if you sign up right now. It's kind of wild to think about the number of minutes that equates. Yeah. That's like more than 2,000 minutes. Yeah. And there we just answer questions. So listener questions. So lots of fun. So first, Jim Wamsley, Megan. We got Jim Wamsley on the podcast last week. We did it. Boom boom with the gym gym. I got to tell them about how much we use that expression around here, which is minorly embarrassing, but also I think cool at the same time. I think he was a little confused. I don't know if he fully understood the context of why we say boom boom with the gym gym. Oh, he got it. You think so? Yeah. Oh, he definitely got it. Okay. I think by the end of the podcast, he really did get us. Oh, yeah. To a certain extent. For better or for worse. We got to stay on for afterward for 45 minutes and talk to him and his partner Jess. That was really fun too. It's because Wi-Fi in France is so hard to buy that it took forever for his file to upload, but it was actually great. We were holding Jim captive. And then even cooler, after he got off, he went and did trail work. With Francois de Hain, the other best, one of the other goats. Actually, we, Francois, like one of the only goats were missing on this podcast. Yeah, I know. Yeah, I wonder what he would say if we asked. We'll see. Maybe we should ask. But tons of reflections on the gym interview. First, like it was got tons of lessons. It's kind of one of those moments in the podcast. That's just really cool. Make sure you click follow on the podcast. Give it five stars. Help us to get these goats. Also really helps the podcast. One of those very cool moments where we can interview some amazing people on here. Yeah, were you nervous? I actually wasn't nervous at all to interview Jim. I haven't really been nervous for interviews. There's just become fun conversations. I get nervous every time. It feels like a date, kind of, you know what I mean? Yeah, but it feels like a date, but with my wingman, which is perfect. Awesome. Like if I had to go out in the world and date with you by my side, I would be fearless. Be like, let's bang on the first date. Interesting analogy. I respect it. Don't know my follow. Do you affirm it? I affirm you in every context. You're allowed to express yourself fully. But I thought there were some great interview takeaways that would be really cool to talk about. First, let's just jump right into the training volume in the training discussion. Because I think that that was a place where Jim has never really opened up like that. And he was really excited, I think, to dig deep with us. Also, at one point, he said he really liked my articles. Oh, I was so excited. Yeah. Wasn't that cool? I think that's what that in your trail on her bio is. These are Jim Wumsley approved. Jim Wumsley reads these. I think they just came out too fast. Wow, Jim. That's why I barely write anymore because they did come out too fast and I burned out. Because you got to appease Jim Wumsley. Well, a lot of his training has been on Strava. And I feel like it's been a helpful blueprint in some sense for some runners. But I also feel like 99% of runners, actually 99.99% of runners that try to do, which Jim Wumsley does, will end up in a puddle on the side of the trail. Well, you use that phrase on the podcast, and I really like that description. But it's really instructive. But for his recent buildup, he didn't have anything on Strava. Yeah. And it was fun to dig into the weeds of what he did for UTMV. Yeah. And I thought it was very cool how he's evolved his training. So he said he looks back at his younger self and wonders how he did that. And now his training is huge, but it's also controlled. Yeah. Yeah. It's not Anton. Yeah. So if you followed this sport back in the late 2000 odds in 2010, it really 2010s was putting on his blog, which was amazing. And it was my first exposure to ultra running. He's a great runner. Yeah. That you would do 180 to 200 miles a week, almost every week in minimal shoes, over the mountains and things like that. And Jim, meanwhile, is known for his extreme training. But in the context of training, talked about only doing five really big weeks. Well, but those five weeks were big. Yes. 125 mile weeks. Well, 225 mile weeks, 115 into 100s. Yes. And tons of dirt. Yes. So 40 to 55K. As we were going back and editing the podcast, I heard that come back up again. And of course, I heard it as we were interviewing him. Yeah. But I gave an audible gas as I heard the 40 to 50,000 feet of dirt a week and the mileage showed all because yes, it's not Anton. But it is still really, really big training. But what I think to me, what I took away from that is I feel like a lot of the goats are kind of coalescing right in this mileage range. So Courtney, Jim, Adam. Killian. Killian. Like, I think are all doing very similar training concepts. But I feel like for me, it defines the far right point of where you can go with training. Like, I think there's a bunch of people that tried to repeat what Anton did. And like, you know, don't have a killi's anymore. Yeah. Or, you know, like, or fully in a puddle on the side of a trail. But I do think there is a very, very, very small percentage of people in our ultra running world that can do that far rightward point of training. Yeah. And I was curious about that. And also, I thought it was interesting how he structured it. So in those five big weeks, he spread that out over a longer period of time. So he's doing big training in the other weeks, but not quite as big. And so he's doing these big pulses and giving himself time to recover, pulse recover, pulse recover. And I think it's a great lesson for everybody in that we've talked about overload weeks in the past and the science of overload training. He's essentially harnessing that around what he's capable of. And he's doing it in only a semi-structured way. So he knows the, you know, micro cycle and macro cycle goal. But it was more structure than I expected. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. And it's like much more structure than other goats seem to have, like Courtney or... I mean, killi is pretty structured. Killi is very structured. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. And so, you know, he was building up to those 125 mile weeks with tons of dirt. And, but he wasn't doing that every week. And he wasn't doing it certainly not doing that year round. I mean, he crossed trains a ton in the off season. You know, he builds into this. And then he does a ton of this work very easy. Probably if we did an intensity distribution on him, 90 plus percent of it would be in Z1 or Z2 and a 5 zone model. Z1 and a 3 zone model, which is really interesting. Like, again, every single athlete across sports is kind of doing this type of training. I think the difference in running is that in cycling, we might see, as we're going to talk about in a study in a few minutes, that that type of training is spread out, like, kind of throughout the year. Like, we're doing that for a long period of time. And running, Jim's like, I don't need that many weeks of this. He talks about five big weeks. And he was ready for his UTMB breakthrough. So that's pretty interesting. And like, listening to him and learning from him, does it change how you think as a coach? Because I think it is interesting, because we're learning from people who are extreme outliers. And I think a big point of what we've talked about in the podcast is like, it's hard to apply extreme outlier training theory, because they have the genetics of, you know, freaking goats. And they also have the work ethic of goats too. And it all comes together in this way. Listening to Jim and hearing about this, does it change how, and thinking about how the goats are coalescing? Does that change how you're going to change coaching? Great question. I think that it doesn't necessarily, because I've already incorporated this. Yeah. To a certain extent. The principles of it. Yeah. Across different ability levels. So the wrinkle here is that Jim has an incredibly high VO2 max. All of these goats we've talked to so far are incredibly talented. And what we've talked about before in the podcast is if you have a really high VO2 max, it takes very little speed work to adapt to your full potential. And Jim even said that on the podcast. It was a fascinating point that two weeks of focused workouts and he's ready to run a PR half marathon off of ultra training. That is anomalous. That is not something most people would see. And the reason that is is because he's incredibly talented speed wise. And so for people that aren't, they might need to build in a little bit more of that throughout the year, a little bit more structured work. But then in other times, like, you know, what I learned from Jim is these overload weeks might need to be a slightly bigger emphasis. And to think a little bit more about overloading vert on those weeks. To essentially tell athletes instead of trying to get a lot of mileage as the goal. Though that can be a goal if you're a high mileage athlete. Try to like load up on vert for, you know, probably four or five weeks, which is something we've talked about before. But I'm going to focus on it even more now before mountain races across the board. Well, for someone that's not doing 40 to 50,000 feet of vert. Like, let's say, let's take a 70 mile per week athlete. How much vert, like, do you think it's a similar vert ratio to what Jim was doing? Or slightly less? Like, how would you structure that? I think 20,000 is a good sweet spot. Yeah. When I see athletes get to 20,000 feet of vert, I'm like, okay, you're probably ready for most races. But it varies a ton. Again, Jim is a male athlete, for example. And that is a hugely different context in recovery than most female, than the average female athlete, even the average elite female athlete. So what Jim's doing probably isn't sustainable for very many female athletes. Like, almost any female athletes, maybe zero. And what Jim's doing is probably sustainable for just a small portion of male athletes. So, I don't know. You know, I think all of these things are taken as kind of like a portrait of training. And it's like a watercolor that you're reading into. How about you? Any takeaways in particular that you're focused on? Well, actually, I have a question for you. Oh, I like this. I like this. Yeah. Well, I think for what I'm curious about with Jim is, like, again, as I talked about, I feel like he's really defining that, like, far right point of training that athletes can do. Yeah. But I think as coaches, if we gave that training to 100 athletes, like 98 of them would break. Yeah. But how do you identify, like, the two athletes, or the athletes that are, like, the two athletes I could sustain that, or the athletes that are able to take that next leap into higher levels of training that might use some of these theories. And like, how do you identify that as a coach, or as an athlete if you're coaching yourself? Yeah. I mean, I think you're just probing the edges. Yeah, that's exactly. Yeah. You're continuously, I think as a coach, you're continuously probing the edges. Yeah. And like, Jim didn't, Jim did this in iterative fashion. I think what is so, um, was the breakthrough about Jim initially when he came into the sport is all of a sudden, he was absolute beast and unstoppable on the world level. And that came when he greatly increased his training. Like, looking back at some of that, it was insane. Um, and those try, that trial of miles, that huge risk that he took initially, was an important leap for him. Um, and I think every athlete kind of applies that. So I view it in a two-pronged framework. First, and we've been talking about this in your training, actually making it, bringing that in, is that if you've never done the trial of miles where you take a big risk, an increase beyond the scope of what's possible in your head, until you've done that, like, you don't know. You have no idea what you're capable of. Okay, but once an athlete has done that, like Jim did back in 2016, then it's all about just small incremental changes to take these risks, understanding their risks and understanding your body and listening to the body. So first comes the trial of miles, take those shots, see what happens, then comes small little changes after, because once you've adapted to the trial of miles and tried that, the body does such interesting things. Well, you used a great point. So yesterday, as we were driving home, and lighting up the drive with conversations, because it had been five days since we saw each other, you used a term callusing the body, that the trial of miles calluses the body. And we're thinking about that for my own training context right now, because I'm coming off pregnancy, I'm coming off a heart issue, and I spent so much time sitting on the couch doing nothing. And I feel like my body went from a callous body to mileage, to all of a sudden, being in a slightly different context. And we talked about the idea coming up here, that I'm going to do a slight, I mean, definitely, nowhere near Jim Wumsley, but like a slight trial of mile build, because I feel like I lost that foundation a little bit as an athlete, and I need to start callusing my body to the mileage, before then I go then and bump up into speed. Because right now, I feel like I could run seven-minute pace, like efficiently all day. But dipping down faster feels biomechanically and efficient, and the only way to do that is through speed, but I also need that foundation of mileage to get to the speed, healthy. So, are you going to go full Jim, Jim? Oh, I'm going to go boom, boom. Not even a full Jim, Jim. Actually, I, a few listeners. So we spell Jim, Jim, J-O-M. Yeah. And a few listeners spell it J, and then the U would like the tilde above it, and then M, and I like that one better. I think it must be a meme or something that we missed out on. Oh, maybe we missed the meme, but we should have asked Jim for confirmation. Like, how do you spell this? Yeah. But I think your training context is, would be really interesting and instructive to listeners. So, you played field hockey, then you came into running, and throughout all of this, like you had been an athlete since you were four years old, and you had some breaks throughout the process, you even had surgery. But throughout that process, you're very close to athletics, and you've done the trial of miles for yourself, you had done all of this stuff before, so you were always pretty close to, like, peak fitness. And even if I had a minor injury or something, like I had to take four weeks off or something, I would come back so fast. In a cross train. And I would feel efficient off the board. Yeah. Where it's not coming back from pregnancy at my heart, it's like, I feel biomechanically wildly inefficient. And I think it's especially the heart. Yes. A pregnancy, like you would have been able to train through, the heart, you got totally shut down. And I think probably you took six or nine months off, where a thousand steps a day type off. Yes. If that, where you, I mean, just walking up the stairs would make your heart rate go through the roof. So you detrained to such an extent that your body lost those trial of miles type adaptations. And like, now, if you try to build back, like, you know, with speed, like you might have in the past, like you could excel off 40 or 50 miles in the past with speed, because you had that history. You remembered it so easily. And I think that history kind of got erased by the heart, because not only did you have the heart, you took a ton of medications that kind of had to reset your body and shut everything down. And so you just lost your calluses. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And now I got to get them back. Yeah, you excited? Oh, I'm so excited. I'm excited to be a callous mother fucker. I love it. Your calluses are going to be so fucking sexy. Oh, thank you. You're going to be in all the right places. Well, hopefully, I mean, sometimes the trial of miles, it's like, it is a touch risky. But I do feel like as an athlete, it's like, I'm ready to do that and ready to be smart in the process. And I'm really excited. And athletes, I think rarely get injured from truly easy work. That's true. And that's a big thing. It's in this process. Yeah. For me, I'm going to have to focus on, like, true Z1 work. And talking about ego death. Yeah. Oh, yes. Ego has to drop by the wayside a little bit, because those days that are so satisfying, where you might run faster or whatever, those are so risky and kind of, like, set back some of this process that, yes, you can incorporate them sometimes, but you got to be careful with that shit. Mm-hmm. So, like, you know, I'm so ready in my ego in one way. You're subverting it in another. And we're going to meet in the middle with, like, fully dead egos, but lots of lots of love. Fully dead egos are going to come alive. They're going to, like, spiritually join and let up inflames. Oh, so much gym, gym. Okay. Do you want to get to the best sports story ever? Okay. Yes. I'm, we, this happened actually a couple of weeks ago. Yeah. Because of the gym mom's interview, we didn't get to talk about it. And I'm so excited. Yeah. So you might have missed this, and this is Sepkoos. Born in Durango, Colorado, he's actually, I think he went to Colorado, the University of Colorado. He did, because he holds so many Strava segments around here. And they're so fast. They're untouchable. Like, I feel like actually Strava's gotten a lot more competitive over the years, which is cool because there's so many more users. Yeah. So many more runs. But he's at the top. It's like Sepkoos from 2013. Yeah. Holding the leaderboards forever. And it is a wild reflection on just how good psychos are. In fact, gym made a quick comment on that when you asked about cycling. He's like, yeah, those guys are just so wildly strong. So Sepkoos has always been the super talent. And he found his way on to the jumbo Visma cycling team, which is currently the best cycling team in the world, by far. And his role there has been as the head domestic, which is the term used in cycling for the person that supports the leader. And where his major contribution was, is in the mountains. So he would just stay next to the leader, stay in front of the leader, pace the climbs, chase down breaks when needed, went from the key rivals. And you can see it in the results. So from when he joined jumbo Visma to now, they all of a sudden started dominating at the grand tours, like the Tour de France, the Giro d'Italia, and the Volta Espagne, the three big ones. And to the point that they had started winning almost every race with Jonas Vindigo and Primoz Roglich. And the whole time, he's just the lieutenant. He loves it. He takes pride in being the person that supports the leaders. And it seemed like he had no more ambitions than that. Until the welder, you set me up perfectly for that. It's like setting me up for the mic drop. And at the Volta, he got into a break early on in one of the early stages and wound up winning the stage. And it was kind of to everyone's surprise. Like he was supposed to be there supporting Vindigo and Roglich's teammates. That's as he classically always does. But then also, he finds himself on the leaderboard on his front lead. Which is big. And it's like, especially when you're an incredible climber. Because like, he would never be able to get a few minute lead organically in the context of racing. If he was trying to just like, do it from the peloton of leaders, from like, all the leader group. But what happened is, the other teams made a mistake and underestimated him as the stomestie. Let him get in the break and then didn't chase it down immediately. Because let's say, Prima's Roglich, or Jonas Vindigo, the other amazing cyclist who have won grand tours on his team got into that break. The break never would have been allowed to get more than 30 seconds at the start. They would have closed it down immediately. They would put an entire team on the front. The other teams to hammer, to catch it. Because if you let those guys get even 10 seconds, you're fucked. They let Seth Kuske get a few minutes. And they didn't think they were fucked, but sure enough, it was going to be spicy to even try to get close to him. But what was even spicier, though, was the team dynamics on Yomobi's mind. Yes. Because all of a sudden, you have this domestique in the general classification writers of Vindigo and Roglich. Honestly, we're kind of like, what the fuck? They're in their heads. Well, they're competitors. They're, and I think the thing about GCs are, they're like the Michael Jordan's world. Yeah, yeah. You can get to that level by being a domestique attitude. Exactly, yeah. Seth Kuske's attitude, we love it. He's the kindest guy he listened to in one podcast that's just like, what a cool guy. In fact, after he won that break stage, the best meme was he's on the podium and they give you bottles of champagne to just spray. Not to drink. He puts up this huge bottle of champagne down like, he chugged it like it was water. Yes. It was, I don't even, I can't even chug water that fast. It wasn't crazy. How was he like, walking the next day? He wasn't riding a bike. Apparently he was just totally wrecked. He was just so hungover. He's also a very small dude. And he just was on the podium like super woozy after that. But that's not the GC mindset. These guys, you know, it started, it's like a cycling lore thing from Jacques Ancateal all the way to Miguel Indorane, Lance Armstrong, you know, whatever these people were doing, the reason that they are so famous for doping is because they're fucking killers. Do you think Tadeh Pogaccia would be classified in this killer category? I'd like to think. Interesting. I have a minor obsession with Tadeh Pogaccia. Who wasn't at this race? Yes. He was, was he second at the tour of the show? Yes. Tadeh Pogaccia, I feel like, would be an incredible, domestic GC hybrids. I feel like he could, he could do everything. Yeah. Usually though, I think. Has personality, I feel like fits. Yeah. Those people are hiding it to a certain extent. Like, he's being authentic to himself. But he clearly has that he wouldn't ride for another rider. Like, you can't reach that level while being just, like, totally well-adjusted and normal. That's a great point. Well, anyway, so, so, uh, Seppkus' teammates didn't support him very well. Yeah. They were out there in future stages, like attacking him, going for stage wins. Yeah. To a certain extent, it was a really interesting situation. This is why it's the best sports story of the year. It wasn't just, oh, Seppkus gets in a break. His team protects him. He wins. So, on his team, or the two favorites, which is really rare, it never happens. And there's a stage called Angleroo, which is the hardest climb in professional cycling. It averages 18%, which if you know that from running, it's a hiking climb for over two kilometers. Except you don't hike a bike. Yeah. In these tours. Well, some people probably will. But it's bonkers to think about getting a bike, and at those grades, running is far easier than biking. In fact, I read about one rider who is going to be in the back, who said any spectator that pushes them, if they put their phone number, in his back pocket, he's going to give them a prize. Oh, this is how I'm going to get Pogaccia. I'm going to go, and I'm going to train for this. And I'm going to push Pogaccia up that mountain. Yeah. And slip a baget in my phone number. It would be like, give me a call. Actually, though, his partner is really good female professional cyclist, too. So. Oh, true. She would eat muscle. No, no, not necessarily. You do have the killer instinct. But, you know, as we work on the child of miles, maybe, that's the motivation for the child of miles. Oh, yeah. Okay. To push Pogaccia. So, what happens on this climb is the entire pack gets whittled down till it's just the key contenders. And, third wheel is Sepcus. First wheel is Prima's robot. She was won this race in the past. Second, as you understand it, who just won the Tour de France. And Prima's starts riding away. Makes a gap on Sepcus. So, what happens usually is, you know, Sepcus, leading this race, if you start to ride away from him a little bit, you wait. And you stay with him and help him get to the finish. Primos did not do that. Despite Sepcus in the past, doing that very same thing for Primos. Time and time again. Sepcus has been able to ride away. And at certain stages. And waits. And waits. And waits to be with him. And so, the jersey is going away. He's not going to win the Vuelta. This fairy tale story is not going to happen. He's hemorrhaging time at the top of this climb in this rainy storm. What happens next? And what happens is, Michele Landa, who's a leader on another team, rides up a patch of Sepcus from behind, says, get on my wheel. Sep grabs his wheel. And as Primos is riding away, Sep does the biggest sprint around Landa to keep that jersey just by bonus seconds, by a few seconds. And so, he's wearing the red jersey of the leader. And he gets on the line. And then the apocryphal story, we don't know if this is true, is that in the team bust that night, the Domestique that always just works for other people stands up for himself, and says, you would not do this to anyone else. This is my race to win. We ride for me. And I'm, that's the moment that I'm, like, so proud of, because it's like, that takes, I mean, it takes a lot of courage to get up and, like, sprint and, you know, close those seconds. But speaking up to your teammates, like that, and saying, like, no, you need to rally behind me. When you're on Yombo Vismo, which has historically the best GCs, like, in the entire world, to me, that was, like, the crux of the story. But also, David, I feel like something happened to you in your spiritual, like, quest, seven miles, I grindstone, because your storytelling is off the chains right now. I'm like, I don't even want to talk. I just want to let you keep going. Maybe we should do, like, podcast story telling time. I think it's fun. Yeah. I love telling stories, but on the podcast. You're really good at it. There's not that many opportunities to talk about things that people might not know about already. Yeah, that's true. Kind of, like, preaching to acquire a little bit, usually. And I'm, I'm assuming people might not know about cycling. So, Seth Kuz, wins the Vuelta Espanya. Totally unexpected. And he is the ultimate underdog story. And in a lot of people had adopted this underdog story. So, on Twitter, there was an account made a few years ago called GC Kuz, general classification Kuz, of people that were always joking, saying, let him get his shot. And you know what? It happened. The fairytale fucking happened. First American to win a grand tour in 10 years. I'm curious to see, like, the ripple effect of how this ignites cycling further in the US, because it's been so long, since this happened. Yeah. And the last person that did it is one of the sketchiest stories. In cycling history, it's Chris Horner, who is now a commentator on the cycling networks. Well, I feel like so many of the Americans have doped. I mean, it's just like, I guess not sure. Chris Horner won the Vuelta Espanya 10 years ago. I think he was 40 at the time. Damn. And he came out of nowhere and was putting up huge numbers. Cycling in the old days was insane. Was he doping? Was that, like, did that have ever come out? If he wasn't doping, then I won Grindstone. Then my ankle is a thick shit right now. Yeah, he's clearly doping. But, you know, the fact that, like, the story now is one that is so wholesome. So obviously, you never know what people are doing. But if there's anybody that I think would be clean, it would be Sepp Kuz. Just because he is said, and in one of his favorite quotes I wish I had put in the podcast outline, was something along the lines of doing sports is accepting that sometimes you're not good enough to be the best. And that that's something he did very early on in his cycling journey as soon as he went to Europe. He understood that he's not the best. And that's okay. And that realization and understanding led him to being the very best at what he does, which is supporting others. For himself. And supporting others. And that also makes me confident that maybe he is clean, because, you know, if you accept that you don't have to win, and that you can have experiences like I had a Grindstone, where you fail on a big stage, and it's okay, and you'll be fine. And you don't have to be a killer to be accepted. Then I think you might not also click corners. So in Sepkoos, I see a champion that like, is who I want to be. I don't have the killer instinct. And yeah, I don't have Sepkoos' talent. But maybe I can be a little bit of Sepkoos, juggling that fucking champagne on the podium, just like how the hell did this happen to me? I love that so much. Well, you told me too. And I think it's always important when I talk about stories in the podcast. I'm like, you told this to me. Yeah. So if it's wrong, we're like playing telephone ever. Every couple does that, though, where there's a moment where like, hey, did you hear this story and then the other person's like, you told me that story. And I think you made it up. Yeah. Well, you told me this story. Yeah. That apparently it didn't Sepkoos say that he didn't want to be a GC writer after all of this experience. Like, after all the trials and tribulations that he went through, he's like, no, no, no, no, no. Take me back to being a domestic. That is not worth this. It's not worth a champagne. Yeah. And he, I think it's okay to be a domestic in life. Yeah. You know, that's my calling. As much as I want to grind stone to be a great day. And I've had great days in the past. I've had those freakish days. When I first won a national championship in 2012, I would probably have been picked 30th on that start line. I beat the U.S. cross-country champion. And I did it with, like, a total naivety in what I was capable of. Like, I've had those days that were just, like, the Sepkoosy days. My version of that. But I'm a domestic at my core. And for me, like, while cheering at grind stone, I was like, oh, this is actually my calling. As much as I'm going to keep putting myself out there and going for it. And... Which is good, because you're incredibly fair right now. But I think, actually, for me, you know, bringing this back to the discussion of golden tickets. Yeah. I think you don't have to go for a golden ticket. Yeah. And the number of athletes that I've said this to you recently, because I think that's been this, like, this huge funnel into altering. And it's, like, everyone's dream to get a golden ticket. But it's not worth your mental health. Like, sometimes, like, being a domestic is freaking amazing. And there's so many amazing races to run out there that are not golden ticket races. And so I think... Only do it if it's authentically true to yourself. But sometimes domestic's win. That's true. Yes. But I mean, I think... But I don't think you always have to structure every single season for that golden ticket. Oh, for sure. And the idea being, you're enough no matter what. Exactly. And I think, yeah. Embracing that domestic's are fucking awesome. Also gives you a chance to know that, like, you know, if Sepp Kustin win that race, if he ended up finishing second, buying Primo's, Roach, he'd have been fine. Right? Yeah. You know, similarly, by embracing that, like, you know, I'm disappointed on some level. But I'm happier than I've ever been. Well, actually, to some extent, if you've gotten, I'm always curious about what happens when a big race is going to happen, because it sometimes does change the relationship with sport, and sometimes it's in a very negative way. Yeah. Well, I am confident that's not going to happen with them. Because he was like, fuck this. Yes. I'm good. So he's going to go back to being the king domestic, and I can't wait to see what comes next. So in all of our lives, let's be a little bit more Sepp Kustin, and a little bit less Lance Armstrong. I think that letting yourself be guided by uplifting others, going for it, and standing up for yourself when it's time, is so, like, you know, validating in this journey of getting vulnerable, which is the whole point of doing sports as an adult that often has, like, other jobs and other shit going on. We don't have to do this, but where it's really valuable is in the personal growth that comes from, you know, trying really hard, failing sometimes, failing most of the time, and sometimes succeeding beyond your wildest dreams, and downing a lot of alcohol. And I think accepting, I just love what you said, that, like, you don't have to be the best. Yeah. What Sepp said. But I also think to be your very best, either. Like, I've said it at this point of, like, you know what, if I'm 98% of my best, I am happy with that. Well, you had said 95%. I know, I'm breathing. I'm raising my stats. That's not going into the trial of miles. But I think it's always important that, for me, I hold back at least one, maybe you'll be 99% in a month. I hold back at least 1% in joint. I love that so much. Yeah. It's not worth the mental health sacrifice. So, we're going to transition slightly to a cycling periodization study. This is very typical, because we just talked about cycling. So, this is called the weekly periodization of top five Tour de France general classification finishers. It was in the international journal of sports, physiology, and performance just came out. And it used a retrospective, retrospective, power data analysis of two cyclists from December to July, as they trained for the Tour de France, finished in the top five. This is fascinating, because every time we look at the, like, very peak edge of endurance performance, especially in cycling, we're seeing what works on physiology when you don't have injuries, because cyclists don't really get injured in the same way runners do. When you have everybody trying, as hard as they can, training at the limits, what works the best? And I think this is very similar to the conversation about, like, zoom, zoom, and the goats. Yeah. It was kind of seeing this defined right-word limit. And how does that shift how we think about training for everyone, understanding that these are also outliers, too? So, what they did was they peered into this the training distribution of two different cyclists. There's cyclist A, who was 29 years old, and cyclist B, who was 23 years old. And they looked at the number of races, the weekly volume distribution, kind of the intensity distribution, and even things like were they training at altitude? Yeah. And what I found fascinating, actually, is that these athletes who cyclists were racing a lot. Definitely. So, in the season, cyclist A raised 46 times. Yeah. And cyclist B raised 19 times. And obviously, you can do a lot more biking races than running races, given the context that it's not, like, loading the body from a biomechanical standpoint. Yeah. But I think there's so much power in doing races as fitness builders, as chances to, like, find out more about yourself. Definitely. And especially, as that incorporates into training theory more generally, in the training distribution. So, I'm going to go through some of the other findings here, that I think are relevant to the racing discussion. First, the weekly volume of these riders averaged around 20-ish hours per week, which isn't insanely high when you think about cycling, being non-weight bearing. The older cyclists did more, 22 hours to the younger cyclists, 18 hours. Makes sense, as we get older, we can sustain a little bit more volume, usually. Pure middle intensity distribution, this gets back to what we always talk about, most training easy. The higher volume cyclist, was doing 81% easy. The lower volume cyclist, was doing 88% easy, which is pretty wild. Like, that's a huge percentage of easy training. Much like we talked about with Jim Womsley. The interesting part is that the time around those races got more polarized. So, the races themselves were the hardest training stimulus. And I think runners can learn a lot from that, that, like, our races are our biggest training. And actually, it brings me back a little bit. Swap athletes had an amazing days at the Manath Trail Fest, 26K. Oh, that was so exciting. Actually, it was, this was an incredible race weekend for us. It was really, and I imagine in some sense, that helped at the whole ankle situation. Yeah, sure. It was like athletes were throwing down at so many different races. But, you know, in coaching those athletes who were at the very top of the world level in running. So, this is kind of like the Tour de France of trail running. These athletes that are doing the shortest distance stuff. Like, what I was telling, like, on a Gibson, let's say, who's come into the trail scene this year and was third at Pike's Peak and fourth at Manath, at the international level, is this day is the hardest day you'll ever do. It's essentially the equivalent of three workouts. And so, you know, on a dealt with some ankle sprains during the race. And, in fact, I said to her at one point after the race, this was before my race, don't worry about it. Incles are made to get fucked. I was definitely begging the karma gods to smite me at that moment. But the point being, those races were hugely stressful, so much more stressful than any workout. And think about how that changes intensity distribution. So it's great to race. But as you consider the fact that, you know, almost 90% of training is easy when you're doing high volume, that means that you adjust, you know, in the subsequent periods, before and after, to make that a little bit less intense. And I think for me, whenever I think about training distributions, it's always helpful to break it down. Like, it's always presented in percentage points. Yeah. But I think for me, breaking it down in terms of minutes, it's helpful as I actually think about the context of training. So for this, for cyclist B, they did 88% of time as you were talking about. In zone one, then 7.9% in zone two, and 3.3% in zone three. But if you think about the context of, like, an eight-hour training week, that's 480 minutes. So for this cyclist, that's like 15.8 minutes, only 15.8 minutes of time spent in Z3, throughout the context of the training week. If they were training in eight hours a week. Yeah, if they were training eight hours a week. And I think it's, like, that's actually not that much time, when you think about it. Like, if you think about, you know, eight hours in 15 minutes, like, like, how, I think for me, it's much more instructive to think about training intensity distributions. Yeah. Sometimes in hypothetical minutes per week. Definitely. I mean, I like that. I also think the complication becomes, if you're not doing incredibly high volume. Yes. So June is like the cyclist. He's probably doing actually very similar peak weeks to them, like, around 20 hours. Yeah. Because we would see the shifted if this was a classic eight-hour week. So if you're doing eight hours, you're able to do a little bit more intensity. But the question is, how you want to distribute that overall. And I think where it differs a little bit for runners that are doing more intensity, is you can bulge out in the middle. So, Megan said, 88.8% in Z1 in a three-zone model. As always, that's Z1 and Z2 in a five-zone model. 7.9% in the middle zone, 3.3% in the top zone. Runners can bulge out that middle zone a little bit if you're doing lower volume to run up hills. It's actually runners, because there is that uphill stimulus. And I think you can get that safely without biomechanically breaking down. Especially at lower volume. But remember, most needs to be easy. Every time we see one of these studies, it shows the same thing. And after a while, I actually had my come to Jesus moment after Grindstone, is I even need to remember to be more accountable to this. I'm going to start quantifying my training more like this, because I'll take a 10 mile easy day. And sometimes, just go fucking chase Strava segments, like I was doing in Chamini. Yes. And that's awesome. And it just displays my fitness. And actually, here's a little pithy quote. It proves my fitness. But does it improve my fitness? I like it. And I think as runners, we need to be careful not to seek out proving our fitness over the benefits of improving it. And at this level of cycling, the cool part is they are so solely focused on improving. Because the time they prove it is once a year at the Tour de France. Much like Jim said, the only time he really proves his fitness is at UGMB, which is a ton of pressure, but also distilled training theory down to really cool elements. We also think especially for troners and runners, but compared to cyclists, there's also an environmental context to proving fitness. So for me, for example, I feel like sometimes here in Colorado, I feel a little bit, I hate to use the word slow, but sometimes I objectively feel slower, because the trails have rocks, we're at altitude, like going uphill is sometimes a crawl. But then I go to California on the weekend, this weekend, and it's like, there's so much about an oxygen in the air. I'm running much faster, and I feel like, I think different environments are easier to prove fitness. And I feel like for me at altitude, I have to go hard to feel that fitness, where at sea level, it's like, oh, I'm just jogging and feeling fitness. And I think it's important to always recognize the environmental context that you're in, and training in, and recognize how that relates to proving fitness, and that you don't need to do that. I love that so much. Yeah, does that even make sense? Oh, totally, I mean, gets the cyclists, only one of them did any time at altitude, might be related to power. In cycling, being an altitude makes you put out less power, and over time, that can be tough, especially, it's a little complicated in cycling, and this gets back to the conversation we have before about doping, where, you know, if you're doping, you might not need to spend as much time at altitude, because your red blood cell count is already... Well, I'm gonna move into dangerous, at some point, to the blood that comes too thick. Yeah. So there's a lot of complications here, but as always, these studies show the same thing over and over, which is these intensive distribution models, where at least 80% is easy, and often more than that. So be comfortable embracing your easy, tune into that, be accountable to it. I never try to prove yourself on easy days. I think that's for me, it's like when I go out the door, it's like this data file truly does not... This is not a test. Definitely. And I think there's, I think so many athletes that's like, each run is a test, and it's like, oh, throw that out the window. Yeah, and, you know, let's ground it in runner. So I was talking about the mammoth trailfest. Yep. So Mika, a buddhan or so, finished second, an absolute breakthrough for him, and this coming week in training, theoretically, it's all easy. It's a high volume easy week, but the reason being, if we are doing an intensive distribution model, he spent almost all of that race in Z3. Like, he crossed the finish line, and it was really helpful to watch the live stream of it. Z3 in a 3-ton model. 3-ton model, yeah. So Z5, I mean, literally, he went all out. He crossed the finish line, passed out. I was actually worried that he needed to do one rollover to cross the actual finish line. So huge breakthrough. And then it's like, okay, if we think about that in a longer term intensity distribution model, then we need to load up on Z1. Yep. Even though it's not just one day when you do that. And similarly, think about how hard your workouts are, how much you are running a pill in your efforts wondering all of those little things to try to mimic this model a little bit. Well, I think as we talk about heart rate and zones and distribution of training, we're also forgetting about the psychological impact, though, of races. I feel like for Mika, that race is a huge central governor of stimulus. And it's like, you carry that forward, and that's outside of this zone model. And I do think it's also important to think about, like, the brain stimulus. The brain stimulus. I think it's important to think about, I think so much of the time we think about training theory in terms of heart rate zones, but all the other bodily systems that are going into there. Especially the nervous system. Especially the nervous system. Yeah, nervous systems often ignored. And another reason to emphasize recovery throughout the process. Yes. Don't fuck your nervous system. But sometimes you fuck it real good. You gently fuck it. Or sometimes, sometimes, yes. Sometimes you gotta lay it down. Remember Tenacious D. You don't always have to fuck it hard. In fact, sometimes that's not right to do. But then at the end. I'm totally missing that song. You don't know Tenacious D. I mean, I do know Tenacious D. Megan, Megan, Megan. I'm a little bit worried about a relationship. Actually, I'm just worried about your singing. Is that a common song? Are you singing it in like a different tone? Um, I mean, you know, I'm not saying I'm a good singer. But like- You are a good singer. Give it that No Tenacious D would know the reference. Okay. So fuck. I've never loved you more than this. And then I do today, generally. But at the same time, I'm a little bit worried. And we might have to talk to a marriage counselor. I'm very sorry. About the situation. But so that song is all- it's called fucker gently, right? Oh, okay. I do- I think I do that song. We'll play it right after. Okay. Yeah. But at the end of the song, it has like a little moment where it's like, but sometimes you gotta fuck her heart. And that's what you gotta do to your nervous system. Okay. Let's get on to some other stories. First one is a fascinating point about running. I think this might not only do one of these, because I really want to get to that. Oh, there's a few. Hot takes. Is that Adidas came out with $500 super shoes. Yeah. What the heck? Actually, I was like blown away by this. And then I was in the SFO Airport this weekend. Yeah. And I paid $20 for an omelet. Okay. And as I was sitting there, I was also in like a spiritual moment. And I was like, I can't understand the $500 shoes. Money is just, I feel like inflation is rolling wild. No, it's not inflation. It's not inflation. Okay. A $20 omelet is not a super omelet. Oh, it was a delicious omelet. Okay. It was a super omelet. It was worthy to be a super omelet. It was 4% better than every other omelet. Actually, it was great, because as soon as I bought a $20 omelet, I was like, I'm eating this whole omelet, the entire plate, every single ketchup packet, because I need my full $20 omelet. Actually, man, it's a good lesson to spend a lot of money on food, because you don't have it. Yeah. Especially if you have low energy available, you've got to eat that shit. Yeah, it makes you be like, oh, fuck. Now I got to eat this thing. If you put avocado on something, you got to eat the whole thing, because it's like that extra $3 I'm never going to get back. There's millennials around to something. Yeah, exactly. The avocado toast makes champions. Yeah. I may not be able to buy house, though. Yeah. But I think it was an interesting moment economically. So those shoes came out before this past weekend, and the Berlin marathon. And I was appalled by the... I was appalled by the $500 price tag, because we talked about this a little bit on Patreon, but I think it's weird to reflect on the price points of this being relatively arbitrary. It has nothing to do with the cost of research, the cost of materials, the cost of design, the cost of manufacturing, as everything to do with these shoes as a luxury item. The same reason that, you know, a Gucci bag might be elevated in price, even though the materials cost nothing, is why these shoes are elevated. Because Nike came into this market with the original vapor fies and charged $250. They said a price point that if you are under $250, you are inherently less valuable as measured in a capitalistic system. So Adidas, I love it. They're just like, fuck this shit. Let's make it clear that we have the most valuable shoes. Let's price it to $500. And to me, it was the grossest manifestation of un, you know, just unabashed, shameless, free market capitalism. Because, well, you know, if you price a shoe at $1,000, are you saying that that's going to be the best shoe? And are we just going to price everybody out of this market because of, you know, the greediness inherent in these systems that will prioritize luxury over, you know, actual cost of goods and services? I agree. And I'm curious to see the return on the shoe. I was skeptical. I was like, oh, I don't think like at $500, I think the shoe is not going to take down the vapor fies or the alpha flies. But that means that the women's world marathon record was set in the shoes. And now all of a sudden, I'm a believer. Give me those goddamn $500 shoes. I know, I know. I'll podcast in those motherfuckers. Well, it's actually, we were talking to a company recently about the value of Jim Wamsley. Yeah. And I feel like, I feel like world records in Jim Wamsley. There is a huge value to shoe companies because it's like, for me, I trust Hookas, especially like the Speed Go EVOs. We should have asked Jim about the Speed Go EVOs. Yeah. He could probably bring them back for us. Yeah, I don't think even Jim could bring about the Speed Go EVOs. You don't think so? They've died. I've heard the stories behind the scenes. I believe. I believe. But, yeah, that is shameless capitalism. But it was, take us to Sepha. We ran a 2-1153. They skipped for women, the 2-12s, and the 2-13s. Well, she got the record by two minutes and 11 seconds, which is the most, I love numbers. Like, when numbers align and like race bibs, I get really exciting. But she ran a 2-11 marathon and broke the record by 2-11. Yeah. How cool is that? It's kind of cool. It also makes me feel a little bit, like, unusual. It's so fast. I mean, she's had a history of running well, so she competed actually in the 800 meters. Yeah. This is only her third marathon. But she did come in and she ran at like a 2-30, I think a 2-34, or her first marathon, so she's dropped time fast. Yeah, and obviously, she's incredibly talented. She's an incredible athlete. But everything about this story... Are you a skeptic? I feel dirty. I feel dirty. Yeah. Not saying she's dirty. Yeah. That's a great way to phrase that. Let's think about every element of this story. Yes. Start. $500, she was announced. Yep. They probably did that knowing she was going to perform this way. Right. I'm not a pressure on her because I think that this was geared towards her. Yep. This was thrown at her. And she comes in, resets what's fully possible in these shoes. So, you can see the pressures of capitalism on one end, with the pricing of the shoes, the marketing of the shoes, put on to the athlete, where she understood her role in this big story, which is to sell shoes. Yes. And what do you do when you are an economic instrument, of results being the only thing that matters, where if she runs a 2-18 or 2-19 and finishes 3rd at this race, she's worth nothing to it. She does almost nothing. And she probably needs that. And I think that's some of the challenge with like... Well, everybody needs that. Yes, that is true. Okay, everybody needs to be the... But I'm not saying she's coping. Yes. I'm just saying, it introduces economic incentives, capitalistic incentives, just like the shoe pricing, that we'd have to be idiots to deny. Yeah. And I worry that, you know, I want to be an idiot, right? It's like the X-Files. I want to believe. I want to believe in everything. I've been burned so many times before, that I think believing, you know, like with your full heart right now, understanding the context of it, understanding how the shoes incorporate into that, is putting your head into the sand and just hoping you don't hear a sound. Okay, I like that. Because actually, I was thinking about, I think when I saw the world marathon record, I wasn't thinking about it in conjunction with the shoes. I was like, oh, the shoes much work. I didn't think about like, it's only because like so much of my research is thinking about like relationships and drivers of relationships, but I never thought about the bidirectional arrow, and like how that impacts things. So you just convinced me. Every time I hear my question to you, it's like, do you feel this way, every time a world record goes down? Because statistically, like you probably should. Yeah. And it's a hard place to navigate, is like belief and excitement, enjoy with feeling like dirty and smelly. Yeah. Yeah. You watch the spectacle, Megan. Enjoy and embrace the spectacle. Actually, well, life is a spectacle. Yeah. I mean, our life has kind of been a spectacle if you've been following it the last couple of weeks. Yeah. And I think that's the hard part about sports is understanding the statistics of outliers versus the reality of giving a shit about sports at all. Yeah. And, you know, that's why I think it becomes a little bit harder to believe when you see such big leaps. And big leaps from a person, like, it should be shown from age 12 on at this point. Well, she went to Olympics in the 800 meters. Yeah. The point is being, you're now hired by so much at this point. Yes. And I actually agree with you on this. So I think it's important to have to push you on it. But I actually agree with you. I feel dirty and smelly and sticky and all the things. Yeah. She's incredible. And, like, she doesn't deserve to be questioned without evidence, which I have zero love. Yes. And no one does. But I do think on the podcast we need to give voice to what everybody's thinking. Especially in conjunction with $500 shoes. And I think that's what brought us to this point. Yeah. So let's celebrate her even as we're skeptical about the systems that are in place that can create negative actions from good people. Okay. That's a perfect conclusion. Is it? You tied that up beautifully. I'm trying to be positive. Yeah. But it is remarkable. And whether it's just the shoe. Maybe it is just the shoes. Maybe they have like a motor in them. Yeah. That's what costs $500 dollars. Or just maybe it's like they are that good. And we'll see. Because that would actually give me hope. Are you going to try some? No. No, because they can only be one for one race. That's the other gross thing about this. Yes, I agree. Did you know that? Well, I actually, it's kind of like the $20 omelette principle. Yeah. If you have $500 pair of shoes and you can only wear them for one race. I feel like there's this like pressure to send it that might actually be kind of good in some situations. I like it. So just like you had to eat the whole omelette. Yeah. If you get a $500 pair of shoes, you're gonna PR. You're not gonna hit the wall last one. You're gonna eat the eggs and the potatoes and the toast and the ketchup packets. Perfect. So good. Okay. I think we just go straight to hot takes. What do you think? I like it. Let's do it. We got so many good ones. Okay. Before getting to hot takes, I just want to tell you that the only thing that made me bring this great energy is athletic greens. We talk about it all the time on the podcast. So many of our athletes are taking it. And we absolutely swear by it. So drinkag1.com slash swap SWAP. As we talk about, you know, our concerns about doping. The best part about athletic greens, it has all of these adaptogens. All of these supplements that elite athletes at the top level are probably thinking about taking. Things like Ashwaganda, you know, all of the different things that helps the body adapt. But it has it in a certified safe for sport package, which is the only place you know what you're getting with athletic greens. They fucking rock. And you know, it's good because it's green. It's green. Also, I feel like we've concocted all the various different ways that you can use athletic greens at this point. But we've never talked about rubbing it on your ankle. Yeah. And number so many people, Megan, when I posted the photo of the ankle on Instagram. So the ankle looked gross yesterday. It was gross. Actually, what I told you about Instagram was you can post the picture of your ankle. But don't post it to me. And toenails are unacceptable. Appendages are okay. Megan made me block the toners. In fact, I didn't want to post the foot at all. But you told me I should. Why did you tell me I should? You showed I was like. No, you did tell me. Oh, but I feel like it's an important context of like sharing your whole journey. Okay. Yeah. Also, it was pretty epic. I'm not going to lie. So I posted it and promised it would be my last foot photo. Okay. I said you could post one. You posted two. Well, no, I asked you second time too, Megan. You're trying to create a false history here. I'm skeptical about you right now. Are you going to rub some athletic greens on it? You didn't know tenacious D. And now you're lying about my Instagram post. You told me to post that. But I got two or three general cohorts. The first was people saying, oh, no, I love you. Cool stuff like that. Which I love. I appreciate you. Thank you. Number two was saying, no, post more. I thought it was an interesting one. They wanted to see some feet. Number three was saying, rub some athletic greens on it. Which I thought was really funny. So I don't know what would have happened to my body if I didn't have athletic greens, but I'm very happy I did have it on board. I'm so glad. And we should we should rip down the ankle. Yeah. So drink AG1.com slash swap. Do you want to get to hot takes? I'm so excited. But first, can we talk about John G? Okay, yeah. No, we can't talk about John G yet, because we have to get to hot takes. Okay. But John G is a hot take. What is that about? Is that they're so fucking great? And here's my hot take is I'm looking, I'm eyeing some like races ahead. Yeah. And are we're waiting desperately for our singlets and our crop tops to come in? But the only thing better than racing in a swap crop top is racing in John G. Yeah. I'm going to race in John G ahead. I'm going to mix it up. I had a full John G kid on. You did. It was green on green. Yeah. Do you have any photos of you from the race? I actually don't think I do. Okay, that's the problem. Do you have anything at mile 11? Is that you didn't make it long enough for photos? You got to at least get to like 40, so you can have some photos. That's pretty embarrassing when you think about it. It's not embarrassing. You literally couldn't have done anything about this angle. I spent two days doing my eight to 12 grams of kilograms of carbs per day. And it's all aligning for this podcast. Yeah. That's why we're telling such good stories. I carb loaded so much. I had so much caffeine. And then I get to mile 11 and a half and can't use any of it. Because everything about my physiology was designed to go 66 miles on these trails. And now I'm just using it on a podcast. How did the caffeine feel the rest of the day? You should have like coached and done some like, you could have written. Probably a whole novel. Okay, that's another takeaway. We'll get back to John G. Yeah. Is throughout this whole process, one of the biggest understandings I have about my spirituality, is that caffeine determines so much about my mental health. It does. So on Friday, you went off caffeine and you called me- Just a day before the race. And you called me and you were like the captain of sad boy track club. I wasn't sad boy track club. You were sad boy track club. I was calm. I was calm boy track club. I was very worried about you. I was sleepy boy track club. But on race day, I not only had coffee, which was awesome. I haven't had coffee or something. I've been doing tea. That was amazing. But I had 100 milligram caffeine gel. I would have had like seven of them if I had finished the race. I told you to have four max. I was gonna have seven. Okay. And I felt so good and happy the rest of the day. Happy boy track club. And part of my realization here is I'm going to harness caffeine a little bit better throughout my life for my mental health. What are you gonna go off caffeine again the day before the race? Like, I don't know if those- You seemed so down about the race. I was away from you. I missed you. Yeah. Okay, I'm allowed to be sad when I miss you. Oh, you're allowed to be sad anytime. But it just was like, I feel like the day before the race is not entirely convenient day to be sad. It was fine. Okay. And I felt great on race. Yes. Everything was awesome. But I am gonna be a little bit more intentional about my caffeine use during the day, especially after exercise, because I want to harness the mental energy in such a way that makes me a better father, husband, and coach, and also much happier. Well, as we were on our trips this weekend, we both coalesced on drinking coffee again. Yeah. It's delightful. Well, we'll see. I think we should wait to bring that to the masses because we're not 100% sure yet. Oh, I'm all in. I'm all in on coffee and gluten, and my life has never been better. I've went back to eating gluten after our trip in France. Yeah. And I was doing it for autoimmune reasons. But there's like, the science isn't like strong enough for me to really change my life. And gluten is fucking game-changing. And I was so happy I'm back to it. And also, I've decided I'm gonna cook every single dinner now, partially because you're back on gluten. And I'm like, oh, I don't have to think about the shit so much anymore. Oh, gluten is so good. It's so good. It's so good. Also, I was realizing too, like being gluten-free really, it was it... My food options were so limited. Yeah. That I felt like I lost some weight after being sick, that like I couldn't afford to not eat gluten. Yeah. And it's so much easier from like an energy availability perspective to eat gluten. So this is my justification. We'll see. I need it. We might change by next week, but... That's true. Yeah. For now, people have been through our journey of coffee. Yeah. We've been like on and off coffee for different times throughout our podcast journey and alcohol. Yeah. I'm still off alcohol. Well, for context, I love this. We're just going different directions before we even need this. Oh, headache by itself. This is supposed to be John. We gave it a John G headache. Hey, there's nothing to do with John G. What the fuck are we doing? But there's a study that just came out. Yeah. The reason we switched to tea in really dialed back our caffeine intake was because some of the science, so a study just came out called the Effective Caffeine on Subsequence Sleep, a Sip Stomatic Review and Meta Analysis from sleep medicine review journals. And essentially what it found is that caffeine consumption, to a certain extent, reduces sleep by 45 minutes and sleep efficiency by 7%. And to avoid reductions in total sleep time, this is a quote, coffee, 107 milligrams of caffeine per 2 to 15 million years, should be consumed at least 8.8 hours prior to bedtime. In a standard serving of pre-workout supplements, 217 milligrams of caffeine, should be consumed at least 13.2 hours prior to bedtime. And those numbers are wild. Yeah. And I actually abide by that. Like, I never have caffeine after a leaven because I'll be up all night. Yeah. And so we saw that it affected our sleep to a certain extent. And so we're like, oh, this matters. And you know what I've decided? Fuck, sleep. You know what I need? What? Happiness. Stoke. So, we'll see if we sustain this. I think we will. In small amounts. We're not going to go too far. We'll just read the Dave Grohlbook, which is amazing. Storyteller. Make sure you read it. It's fantastic. He's in the food fighters. He talked about that at one point. He got on such a caffeine habit that he would have like multiple pots throughout the day. In in between those pots, we'd fill it in with like monstreener precedents and things like that. He calculated his caffeine intake. At get this. Well, actually, first guess what he would have caffeine intake per day? 2200. 5 thousand milligrams of caffeine. 1000 milligrams of candy. What? That's wild. And maybe this is why he's so spiritual. He's so God every single day. Maybe this is why you're so spiritual. You had that big caffeine during the race and then your brain exploded. Exactly. So, you know, there are interesting considerations here, but we tested off our coffee maker, put every piece of it through the washing machine and this morning I think we brought a good energy to do this podcast. This podcast has been fun. Let's finish it up with three hot dishes. No, we haven't even promoted John G. yet. We just did. No, we didn't. Okay. You just said it. More code swap SWAP at johng.com. Buy their apparel. They're the coolest company. We love them so much. They might give you the power of a thousand sons or Dave Grohl's 5,000 milligrams of caffeine. Yeah, John G. One John G item is at least worth 500 milligrams caffeine. So true. How many milligrams do you think you do a day? Just on a curiosity. It's like a reference range. So, I mean, for a long time I was doing caffeine or I mean tea, which is probably good. You were doing caffeine. 50 milligrams of caffeine in the morning. And that's it. Sometimes I would do a little bit more on top of that. And I think I'm going to go up to anywhere from a hundred plus or minus a thousand. That's going to say 4,000. Yeah. So the air bars are going to be quite large as I figure this out. And in negative caffeine directions. Yes. Yeah, some days I will go to zero in which feels more like a negative 900. Okay, let's do some hot takes. First one, walking treadmill lunges should be added to the mountain legs routine. I'm actually going to give this a negative. Walking treadmill lunges. Why? Yeah, that sounds dangerous. Why don't we get in the treadmill? I probably eat shit doing that. Yeah, do it somewhere else. Couldn't you just do it anywhere? Also, I do feel like sometimes walking lunges can irritate athletes' knees. Yeah. So be careful with them. Yeah, I just also think it's so interesting to think about this athlete. But I really like this athlete. They're clearly thinking. Yeah, I like it. This is it, David. This is like, did you submit this? You would try to figure this out. You would do it on like an uphill. It'd be like a 15-per-ton to do it. Yeah. But you would do it. I would try to solve a problem that doesn't exist. Yes. Yes, very much does sound like me. But it is not. Remember, if the treadmill belt is moving for you, you can also do that on ground, because you can move. Yes. So I don't understand why the treadmill's important. Maybe it is, though, I don't know. Maybe they're mixing into running. So maybe they're like doing an interval then doing a walking treadmill lunge and then running some more. I like that. What do you think? Yeah. It sounds like kind of like a cross-fiddy thing. So we'll see, don't recommend this. But do you think that lunges are a great part of your routine? This is a part of the mountain legs routine, the speed legs routine. Basically, everything you've seen from us include lunges in some contexts. Really good. Especially rear lunges. If you don't do rear lunges, they are wonderful. You might do them once and your butt hurts all of a sudden and it's like, wow, what is going on? Is your activate in your glutes? And those are the muscles used to climb. It's great. Yeah. Real lunges are magic. Okay, nice hot take. I really like this. No one has a real job anymore and then like six exclamation points. This is sincerely a Gen Z giving boomer vibes. So this is a Gen Z person that said no one has a real job anymore. I actually appreciated this one, because you want, I love my job so much that it doesn't feel real. Well, also our jobs are fake. Well, everyone's jobs are like these specific. Our personal jobs are fake. Why? If you can do your job from home, I kind of think it's fake. Okay, no. Everyone can do their job from home. That's what the pandemic proved. You can't manufacture a widget. That's a fester. You can't milk a cow from home. Yes. Why should I guess maybe you could program the milker? This is how we're gonna get AI. That's like, can I hold the world? It's doing it from home. But I'm just trying to put myself in this person's shoes. Like what they're saying. Yes. And do you ever have that moment where you're going past like a skyscraper or something? Like something that's like 60 stories. And you look up to the 40th floor and you're like, what's that person doing with their lives? Oh yeah, all the time. Because I was one of those people. And sometimes I feel like that. And I feel like sometimes there's this culture like if you're not struggling deeply with your job, you don't have a real job. Maybe. Yeah, but I think what this person is saying is essentially like Excel spreadsheets don't count as real jobs. I think they're saying like jobs are the means of production to bring us back to our economic discussion, bring some Karl Marx into this, to produce some 500 dollar shoes. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I mean, true. But the point just being like, I think we all struggle with that to a certain extent is what are we doing with our lives and spending so much of our lives doing? And is it real? And that's what we're running is amazing. It's because it takes you outside of that. True. And sometimes you truly fuck your ankle and you're like, oh, that's real. Yeah. Even if the reason I was doing it isn't real, the fact that my ankle looks like a beach ball is a very, very real thing. So to bring it back to like real things or like things that might be like concrete take away, if you're out there and you have those misgivings about your job, one, you can quit your job, we always suggest that. But to know that everybody does, I feel like even someone that's doing human rights work that's saving the world. Or even like surgeons probably feel that. Yeah. Or Mulala probably feels like that sometimes. Mulala is just like, should I have been an accountant for some time? Do you think she thinks that? Oh, for sure. Definitely, we all think that sometimes. Okay, I like this one for the last one. The presidential debate season should include a 50k for all candidates. If you can't run the trail, you can't run for office. Oh hell yeah, is my response for this. It would be fascinating to see how like, what a training approaches and racing approaches all the presidential candidates would take. Like Trump will get on like a bike and a bus. He would run like one mile and then you would see him at the finish line winning and he'd be like, I did it all. No, he would not even do that. He'd be on marathoninvestigation.com. He would never even do that. And yeah, he'd just be like, I've run so many marathons. So many great marathons. The best marathon. And so good things and bad things about this hot day. Yes. Bad things first. Bad things is you don't need to run to be fully worthwhile. Yeah. And I think I love this as a joke. I don't like it as reinforcing ideas that I think it's a great joke. You need your own joke. But I think the good thing is that why are politicians so fucking old? Yes, I agree. Actually, I was going to say, press the board. We might kill them. You can't. Maybe that would be a good thing. No. Not a good thing. But like, this would be a survival of the fittest. Hunger games are politicians. Exactly. Make them run a fidget game. You need to be like fucking rude out there. That's what we want for leader. Katniss. Yes. Katniss or president? Yeah. No, but the point being, like, I think there are some really, really smart takes that a weird thing has happened in society where we're governed by, is like the gerontocracy, right? So like septogenarians are running government across the board. I think that's great. Everybody should be able to do anything they want. But it becomes a problem when you consider just basic incentive structures, where you're essentially relying on someone to think about generations, many generations in the future. And you're using systems that, yes, many people can become 98 years old and have an evolved perspective. But already, I'm looking at the way that 20-year-olds look at the world, enviously, because they've grown up in a different context than I have. And we're in our 30s. So have you ever had an 80-year-old try to use computer? Now, imagine understanding new concepts, like the wild things that we're thinking about in the world. So I think we need to have some sort of test. I agree with you. I don't think it's a 50K, but there needs to be some sort of test. I agree with you. But I also think so. We have an empathy test, not a fitness test in empathy test, because you need. But you also, that happens during a 50K, too. Especially if you do that. We should make them de-naf and see what happens. But I think, actually, there is a huge issue of ageism, though, in the workforce. And the presidential area is one place we don't see that. But it's massive in other areas of the workforce and the population would be there. OK, I get it. But where do you draw the line? I know. OK, I hear you. So yeah, in obviously, it goes. We should just get them all athletic greens. Then they would live forever, and we'd be OK. OK, so I don't think age is a problem in and of itself. I just think it's a problem, because it wouldn't reflect on our political system generally, that because our senators and stuff can just run for all these terms, you have Chuck Grassley and Diane Feinstein up there. And you're like, guys, this is our best and brightest at this point. Like, I don't know. You're going to be brilliant at 85, David. I don't trust myself. I'm way too old already to be a senator, man. I want to go to sleep at 6 p.m. I could never be in the situation room. So maybe that's actually the test we need. Instead of 50k, what we need to do is say, can you stay up till 11 p.m. to, I don't know, do something that really stressful? And do it repeatedly. Yeah. I did it this weekend. I then got up at 6.30 a.m. for a run. And I am wrecked. So we're just qualified from office. Exactly. Yeah. I'm happy with. I would much rather be the Domestique than be the GC in the United States government. That's a perfect way to end this. Yeah. OK, do you want to get on the listener corner? Let's do it. As always, we love you all. Thank you for everything you messaged us in the world to us. And here it is. I'm only sort of a runner. But I've been doing all of the things you recommend. And I had the most fun, best feeling run of my life today. PR at every section felt super strong. And it affirmed all of the wisdom squeezed in between jokes about banging prairie dogs. Forget us saying that. But apparently, you said that at some point. I'm wondering if you'd ever write up a training plan that's for those of us who are coming to running later in life, who will never question mark, run a 50K. But when it keeps stacking bricks and maybe a shorter race distance, it's been a super vulnerable act to start running, to share my slow pace on Strava, even to wear shorts, et cetera. I'm getting to know my body in a new way. And some days it feels brave. Some days it feels super humbling. It would be amazing to have a training plan that's in my strike zone. Also, please never start a cult. Because I'll have no choice but to join. And I do not have the bandwidth for that. Oh, we would start a low bandwidth cult. Yes, the only way we do not have time to invest in a high bandwidth cult ourselves. A cult that asks almost nothing. How great would that be? Yeah. That's also made like my dream friend group. Yeah. Okay, yeah. Okay, we invest a lot in friends. But also sometimes you just need this friends that like you cannot talk to you for like two years and then you message and it's just like a delightful relationship. That's kind of what we need in general. We gotta be honest, man. That's how you structure a cult. Oh my God, the cult that checks in once every four to six years. Yeah, exactly. Just with the text, this is, hey man, thinking of yeah, how you doing? Come meet as a burning man. I'm just kidding. But no, no, no, we don't even need burning. Wait, and then I don't know. How will this cult be building to you? Like what is the purpose of this cult? Banging bird dogs. Banging bird dogs. I was gonna get it. I don't know, I like that. That can be the purpose. No, yeah, maybe we need to think about it long-term about. But I do think a low bandwidth cult is perfect. Into this listener, let's start right at the beginning. You said I'm only sort of a runner. No, you're a fucking badass beast athlete runner. And embrace that right now. And let's go to the middle to you about never running a 50K. Yeah, like fuck, fuck, 50Ks. If you don't run one to run 50Ks. But we have coached so many runners who have said they will never be able to do it. They do it. And you know what else you can do? What? Fail a 50K at mile three, or whatever my equivalent. Just so long enough for the race photos. Yeah, in the point being that like you're nothing no matter what. And that's the cool part about athletics is that you don't have to have these qualifiers. You don't have to say I'm sort of a runner. You don't have to say I'll never run a 50K. You don't have to say, you know, in my case, I'm not gonna get a golden ticket now or any of these other things or I, you know, whatever. You can just say I'm a badass fucking beast that puts myself out there. And athletics is the place where I get to express parts of my soul that are really hard to express elsewhere. And you can say I love me some me. And I love me some of these sexy cancels. Do you have my ankle? I do. Yeah, I have her, mate. I would like it to be a little smaller, just for your own sake. Thank you. But I do love it still. It's a little white and blue too. Yeah, ooh, it's tie-dye. Yeah, much like your bra, which is John G, that is a little bit all different colors. You look so beautiful right now, Megan. This is too, so much. This is how you give John G promotions. It looks like a spray neck off. No, but actually, this is beautiful. It's called, I think it's called micro-flourism. Sorry, cool. It's got lots of bunch of little flowers. A spill. What's that? A spray neck like the fuck? No, but I missed you so much. And it's so fun to get to be with you again. Yay, we get to tell stories and have coffee and gluten. And start really well, go band with cults that end every meeting with. Huzzah. Huzzah. Gluten.