Hello, you sentient balls of stardust.
This is strugglecare.
The podcast about how to get dope therapy, at least that's the episode that we're doing
today.
I have Shawnee with me and she and I know each other from TikTok.
And then will you tell us what your qualifications are?
Because I don't actually know them off the top of my head.
Oh, yes.
So I am a licensed professional clinical counselor in Minnesota.
And then I'm a licensed professional counselor in Arizona.
Same thing, just different letters behind the name.
I don't know why every state, they just can't get on the same page.
But basically I have a masters and I am qualified to do therapy.
Excellent.
Yeah, I know in Texas, we call them LPCs.
So I never know what to call anybody.
And I am chronically underprepared to interview people on my podcast.
So thank you for being here.
So you wrote a book called how to get dope therapy.
And let me just say off the bat, the thing that I love about your book is how practical
it is.
Like you spend a good part of the book just explaining the basics.
What is a copay?
Where can you go to search for therapists?
What types of therapy?
What do they mean?
And I feel like as therapists, we take for granted that people don't know the basics.
And you know, it's funny that you say that because if I'm being honest, what I actually
had to condense that chapter down, that's chapter two, I had several people read it
and they're like, this is so much information.
And I was like, I know what I feel like people need to know this.
And it really comes from people coming into my practice, working with me and then me having
to explain deductible.
And then being like, wait, what are you talking about?
I pay my insurance monthly.
What do you mean I now have this bill that's like 130?
I don't understand.
And so I was like, I cannot write this book and not go in depth about what a copay is,
what a deductible is, how that changes yearly.
It starts over yearly because I feel like I would be doing people disservice.
And then I was like, I can't put this chapter at the back of the book if people can just
get through this chapter.
It's so good.
Like I know it's so much like business and like money, but I'm like, I just need you
to get through chapter two.
Well, and I think about so many things that can prevent someone from going to therapy.
And I am someone who like my whole life.
I am chronically insecure about things that I don't already know how to do.
Like if I don't know how a workout class works, like simple stuff, like I don't know what
I'm supposed to do after I walk in.
I don't know what I'm supposed to bring.
I don't know exactly what everyone's going to be wearing.
I don't know if I'm supposed to wait over here over there.
Like it gives me so much anxiety.
I just won't go unless I can bring somebody with me.
Yeah.
And I think that that's important to recognize is because especially if you're someone that
is actually, no, I want to say I was about to say if you're someone that's going to
therapy for the first time, but then I'm like, no, because you can go to a different
therapist and it be completely different.
So I mean, it can be this anxiety provoking thing because you're about to be vulnerable.
You're about to like lay all your shit on the table.
And hopefully this person in front of you creates a safe place.
That's so scary.
So when I was in college, I got a theater degree.
And in your like senior class, you had to take this one class.
I don't remember the name of it, but it was famous because it had this thing called the
wildness project where you were encouraged to go do something absolutely wild and then
write about it.
And it was kind of this idea that like as an actor, you need to be able to sort of get
beyond yourself.
So all of my, I mean, you know, theater students, like we're also depraved anyways.
And so the kinds of things that people would do for this wildness project is like they'd
go take mushrooms or they'd go skydiving or they would go sit for like a nude art drawing
or they'd go have an orgy.
I mean, and he had specific rules that like it does not matter.
I don't care if it's illegal.
I don't care if it's an ethical like go do something just wild.
And so what was funny is like I show up at this point in my life.
I'd been sober several years and I'm thinking those things aren't actually wild for me.
I've done most of these things.
And what I ended up doing for my wildness project was going to a ballet class.
I love it.
And the reason that that was so wild for me is because I had always wanted to do ballet,
but I hated the fact that I was like 21 and didn't know how to do it.
And I felt like I didn't know enough about like, am I going to be in a class with little
kids?
Am I going to look stupid because I don't know how to do it?
And like, I just won't do things like that.
If I don't already know how to do them, I don't.
And so I signed up and I made myself go and I went to several of them.
And that was my wildness project of like pushing myself beyond my limits.
But anyways, it just reminded me of that because I feel like a lot of people are in
that boat.
Like they don't want to go to a therapist because they don't understand what it's going
to be like.
And I feel like you lay that out so well in your book.
Yes.
Thank you so much.
I wanted to comment.
I love that you sort of said that because I think that we as a society sort of see
wild as like drinking and like drugs and like doing these things that could lead to death.
Like skydiving and like, no, my wild is like being in a ballet class because wild essentially
is mean like unknown.
You can do anything wild if it's unknown to you.
Yeah.
And wild is vulnerable.
Exactly.
I love it so much.
Well, thank you.
So what made you want to write a book like this?
Okay.
I'm going to have to be honest because I'm trying to think as anyone asked me this question
yet.
Okay.
So honestly, I was approached by the publisher and they were like, Hey, have you ever thought
about writing a book?
And I was like, Yeah, definitely about myself.
And so the publisher was like, Oh, okay.
What about anything else?
And I was like, Oh, well, I don't know.
And they were like, think about what you do well.
And I was like, Oh, okay.
So like, I literally took like two weeks and I remember I was so nervous the entire time
because getting a book deal has been on like what if my dream like vision boards and I
was like, I can't screw this up.
And I was like, what do I do really well?
And I was like, Oh, therapy.
That's what I do really well.
And then I was like, how can I write a book that is unlike any other like literally like
literally going diving into the things that I'm not going to lie.
Some of the things that I wrote in the book, I was very nervous about writing specifically
the business chapter about copays and deductibles because I don't think that that's often talked
about.
And what made me fearful of writing about it is I was like, what if I don't know some
insurance company is like, you can't write about this.
We have to like take this book.
You can't put this information, you know, because knowledge is power.
Right.
I just was really like, I want people to know as much as they possibly can to be able to
make an informed decision about stepping into therapy and what that looks like.
I love that.
And that's only a part of the book is like the business stuff.
The rest of it is like how to get the most out of your therapy journey.
And I really appreciate this.
A couple of years ago, I had someone ask me, how do I find a therapist?
And I did like a series of TikToks that would like broke it down to like, okay, here are
some places you can go and search.
Here's how you look it up on your insurance.
But then the most important thing that took people by surprise was talking about how for
the most part now, there are definitely people in circumstances where they don't have a choice
about what's therapist they're seeing.
But when you have that choice, recognizing that they might be the expert, but those first
sessions or two, like you are interviewing them.
You are seeing if they're a good fit for you.
And people had never heard anyone talk about here are the questions you can ask because
there's nothing worse than getting several sessions or several months in with a therapist
and realizing, oh, this is not the person for me.
Yes.
And I provide a list in the book.
There's a list in the book to talk about like finances.
Like I don't think people think to ask the question, okay, I might be coming to you using
insurance.
But if I lose my job, people don't often think of the financial questions to ask a therapist.
For instance, I might be coming to you right now and I have insurance.
But what happens if I lose my job?
What happens with us?
What does that look like?
Do you have a payment plan?
What is your self-pay fee?
If I can't pay that because I'm in the middle of losing a job, will you help me look for
insurance?
That's something that I actually do as a therapist where if a client loses their job, I'm like,
hey, let's get you on state insurance.
You know, you can qualify for that now.
Let me show you how.
Here are the websites sometimes I may even do where we sort of have video and then I
share my screen.
I'm like, if you're comfortable giving me your information, I will fill it out for you.
People don't think to ask those questions because if you lose your job, you lose insurance
and that disrupts the therapy process.
Yeah.
And it's good to know ahead of time whether you have someone and sometimes it's not personal.
It might be someone who they're running a private practice and they just can't afford
to do six free sessions.
But knowing ahead of time, man, I could probably give you a session to close us out and then
refer you to somebody else or, hey, my sliding scale is full right now.
All those sort of things are really important.
I always like to ask therapists, when you are looking for a therapist for you personally,
what are some of the questions that you ask?
Oh, that's a good one.
Man, I got to update my book.
That's a really good one.
If I would answer that question as a therapist, I think it depends on what I'm going for.
So I talk about my experience when I lost my dog.
I mean, you have the pandemic going on and I remember saying, you know what, I can handle
all of this.
Just don't take my dog.
And I lost my dog the end of 2020.
And I had never, this was my first dog.
I had never like put a dog down before.
They don't tell you what that process is like.
Let me tell you.
And so I remember I was like, okay, I'm not okay.
I need to go see a therapist.
Now for me as a person, I've always worked well with sort of like, tell me, stern, you
know, that's just how my brain is worked.
And then I realized, I was like, Chani, do you want that while you're grieving?
Do you want someone who's stern while you're grieving?
I was like, oh shit, no.
And so for me, in looking for someone that could help me, I was like, I actually don't
want to feel like I'm working with a therapist.
I want to feel like I know a person.
And so it actually helped me choose my therapist was I remember in her profile, she mentioned
that she loves running and she was huffled puff and I was like, sold, sold, I'm sold
there.
And then I remember going in and seeing her for the first session.
And one of the things that I asked her is it was during the time we were starting because
by the time that I saw a therapist, it was around the time of the election.
So a question at the time for me that was important as a black person was who did you
vote for?
And I remember feeling scared as hell to ask such a personal question.
But at that time, that's what I needed.
I needed to feel safe as a black person in my sessions.
And I remember my therapist responding with, well, depending upon how I answer that question,
what is it that you're trying to get at?
And that's what helped me say, I need to feel safe in this room as a black person.
And then I remember she told me and I was like, oh, okay.
Okay.
Actually, what I meant to say was did you vote for Trump?
But I think I asked it around about way because she was like, she didn't vote for Trump.
And I was like, oh, so I immediately recognized.
Sometimes we ask questions and we aren't direct, but we know what the answer is that we're
looking for.
So I learned something through that process.
She gave you such a good therapist answer of like getting curious about what was going
on internally with you and wanting to know that.
I love that.
It's also like one of the first therapist hacks I was ever taught was like, if somebody asks
you a direct question, particularly if it's like a challenging one or one that makes you
have some feelings to like lean into, let's get this communication more direct.
Like, what are you feeling?
What are you worried about?
What fears do you have about how I might answer this question?
And when that's done genuinely, it doesn't feel like they're like dodging the question
because they do eventually give you the answer.
Oh my God.
Yeah.
And she did.
I feel like in school, I really wish they would teach therapists not to dodge answers.
Like I get that it's not about us, but I feel like if a client is genuinely asking you a
question and diving deep and figuring out, well, what are you trying to get at is very
important and not dodging the answer.
Yeah.
I think one of the things that can be really difficult about sort of interviewing a therapist
is figuring out what their biases may be, knowing that they're not going to be able
to directly tell you that.
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
And so you kind of have to know what to ask.
I know that one of my big ones was because I like, I went to seminary.
That's where I got my counseling degree.
I'm not evangelical or conservative.
I don't even go to church anymore.
But I still consider myself as like, ascribing to that faith.
And so I didn't mind if my therapist was a person of faith, but I needed to know how
that was going to impact the way they did therapy with me.
And so I found that the question that really helped was like I'd say, like this is what
I'm struggling with.
And I would say to them, do you believe that this is a problem that can be resolved outside
of issues of faith?
Or do you believe that ultimately I cannot fully recover from this unless there's faith
involved?
I love that question.
And most counselors will be honest with you.
Like they'll say, you know what, at the end of the day, when I'm looking at this, I
think there's a lot of progress we can make.
But at the end of the day, I kind of believe XYZ or they'll say like, no, I think we can
go this entire process.
You know, you can get better.
And so it's kind of hard to suss out those internal biases, I think, but it's important
because you don't want to be six months in with somebody before they walk that on you.
No, you do not.
And that can be challenging too, because sometimes I feel like when people have negative experience
with therapy, it may not be the therapy itself, but the person that was performing the therapy.
And so then we sort of take this like, oh, therapy doesn't work when it's like, no, therapy
doesn't look that person.
There are so people who are so different.
There's so many options out there for therapy that if it doesn't work for that person, try
finding someone else, try and then reflect.
Why didn't it work?
Was it something they said?
Was it how you felt in the session?
There's so many different things as to that can lead to why therapy didn't work.
And this brings up another sort of question comment I want to bring up, but I'm going
to pause this for a second and we'll be back after the break.
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Okay, we're back with Shawnee who wrote How to Get Dope Therapy.
And I think that it brings up this really interesting, like your book fills a really
important gap, which is that I think as therapists, we don't talk to clients enough about the
therapy process.
We don't teach them how to be a participant in therapy.
They're just supposed to kind of passively show up and talk about whatever will steer
the ship.
And I find that when I bring up things like ask them what they think about faith.
Ask them if they've ever worked with this issue before.
Ask them what would happen if this, especially if you bring up, they'll say like, well, I
really hate that my therapist did XYZ.
And if you say like, well, did you talk to them about that?
Yes.
They're like, I'm allowed to do that.
It's like that is a therapist's failure.
If they did not make you understand that you are allowed to push back, you are allowed
to ask questions you are allowed to and this is what's so sad.
And I feel like you will totally agree with me is that the heart of the therapy process
is not, I'll talk about my problems and get advice.
It's I'll experience a relationship where I'll learn to tolerate that sort of rupture
and repair.
Yes.
Oh, I completely agree with you wholeheartedly.
I mean, I can think of moments throughout the moments that I reflect on.
I feel like as a therapist, the most when I'm learning to be, as I say, I'm on this continuum
of learning to be a therapist because life is always transitioning where there was a rupture
in my early career days and I didn't repair it.
Like those are the moments that I reflect on.
And so now when I am working with clients, let's say for some reason I say like, here's
the homework this week and they're like, sure.
And I'm like, hmm, do you agree with that homework?
And they're like, I mean, it sounds no, no, no, no, do you agree with the homework?
What do you think about the homework?
Let me tell you why I'm assigning this homework.
Let me tell you why I think this will be beneficial to your process.
And I've had clients that are like, actually, I don't really agree with that.
I'm like, cool.
Let's talk about why you don't agree with it.
Let's talk about what you think might be helpful.
I love when clients tell me how they feel because I'm like, yes, they're learning how
to advocate for themselves.
It's the real work sometimes.
That's the real work and how to, because if I'm being honest, I think that some clients
view me as like an authority figure, right?
And so being able to challenge that, I love it so much because as kids, you know, for
me, you know, you don't say why you just sort of do what parents say.
They're the authority.
And then that leads an adulthood to not speaking up in meetings, not advocating for PTO.
So I love it when a client is like, no, actually, I don't like that.
Great.
Tell me, because I can be wrong.
I'm just taking an information that you're giving me.
I can be wrong.
Your therapist can be wrong.
And I do think that sometimes, you know, I agree with you.
It's like, it's not the therapy that didn't work.
It was the therapist that didn't work.
And sometimes that therapist wouldn't have worked for you no matter what.
But I also know that as a therapist, I'm capable of being more than one way with a client.
Like, I can be direct and kind of, you know, I'm that person that you want to have those
come to Jesus meetings with, you know, I can do that.
But I can also not do that.
Like I also know how to be a therapist that is more a little more passive, a little more
curious, a little more soft.
And we do the best we can to sort of intuit what that person needs, but we don't always
get it right.
And so it's totally okay for a client to say to me, you know, I don't actually like that
you are meet you kind of ask challenging questions.
I don't like that you interrupt.
I don't like that you always prescribe homework, write whatever it is.
I remember having to tell a therapist recently, she was working from an act perspective.
So it's acceptance and commitment therapy.
And a lot of what goes on to that is talking about like our expectations and those sort
of things.
I won't go into the whole thing, but she kept talking.
I was having some struggles and she was talking to me about like, well, what are your
expectations there?
What are your expectations there?
And it was really bothering me.
Like I was getting irritated and it took a couple of sessions for me to sort of identify
and bring up to her.
Can I talk about the word expectations?
And she was like, sure, I said, it really bothers me when you say that.
And she was like, okay.
And she like got that look that I know, which is like, oh, I'm so excited.
Like this is the real work.
And I shared with her like I grew up in a really, really cultish 12 step environment
for about seven years.
And part of what they would talk about is how like, you know, your resentments are just
unmet expectations and expectations are just pre resentments and how like any time I had
a legitimate grievance about the way I was treated, people used expectations like as
a weapon of like, well, did you expect to be treated a certain way?
Well, that's on you for your expectations.
And I just kind of got gaslit with that concept.
And I realized that the reason I really was disliking the approach she was using with
me is because not because there's anything wrong with her or with that concept, but because
I was feeling that sort of resurgence of my own sort of like triggers around that.
And she heard that and was like, that makes perfect sense.
And then at like, do you want to talk more about that experience?
And then she was able to use different language.
She was able to explain it more what she means when she says expectations.
That's not her intention and she was able to be way more validating because she realized,
Oh, Casey needs her reality validated heavily before we walk into a let's look at what we
can control in the situation.
Yeah.
And I think that that's important too, because I think of, um, I said it Yalam.
I don't know if you've ever read the gift of therapy.
Oh, it's such a good book.
And I said, I think it's Yalam.
Oh my God, I might get this wrong.
Okay.
So in it, he says the therapist has many clients, but the client only has one therapist.
And I think that that is so true.
And I often try to recognize like, maybe this is, I feel like I've had comments on my Tik
Tats for people like, what is it about theater and therapists?
Like there's so many therapists that have been involved in theater.
And I think that this is a great example where theater was my first major.
Let me say that right now.
I am multifaceted in that I can switch it up to my style can be switched up to meet the
client's needs.
So there are some clients that, you know, I might say like, how are you doing?
And as a formality, they might say, well, how was your weekend?
And I can totally tell that they don't want to know how my weekend is.
They're just doing a formality, but there are some clients that are like, how was your
weekend?
And I can totally tell they're like, no, please tell me how was it?
I'm like, Oh yeah, chill with my kids.
And they're like, okay, great.
And then they sort of want to get started.
So I can be what the client needs.
However, this is recognizing as a therapist when I am out of my school practice, when
maybe I recognize, for instance, if a client may need EMDR.
So I'm explicit in telling them, Hey, I want to let you know I've recognized this is different
type of therapy that might be needed here.
But don't worry, I can still work with you on some things.
But I do think that this is coming up a lot that I would recommend a different type of
therapist.
And I will help them find that type of therapist.
So it's a juggling act.
And I love it so much because maybe for me as a therapist, I just don't want therapy
to be so blah, you know, sort of like the person sitting in a couch.
No, I've had where I've gotten up and danced with clients.
What do you need in this moment?
We've done puzzles.
We've done games.
I would love to actually go hiking with clients, but it's definitely something that the client
only has one therapist.
I worked with a couples counselor a way, way while back, but he was one of the best counselors
I've ever worked with.
And one of the things he did before he would even see us was first of all, I want to normalize
couples counseling for everyone.
It can be so life changing with a good therapist.
And you do not have to wait until your marriage is like on the rocks are in trouble.
Like this should be one of your first lines of defense.
If it's in your budget, when you come to that sort of like, this is something we can't get
passed because what I find is that the thing you can't get passed is the thing you're never
going to get passed in your whole marriage.
Like you don't go to therapy to learn how to get past that issue.
You go to therapy to learn how to stay in a loving, respectful dialogue with someone and
make a livable life with someone that you love knowing that this might be the issue that
kind of comes up for us over and over.
Like how do we learn how to do this in a way that doesn't erode our relationship over time?
Anyways, but one of the things that I think made him so good was that he sat me down and
was like, I have some questions to ask about.
And because I was a therapist, he was kind of direct with me about like where you feel
some of these issues were coming from.
And basically what it amounted to was he was trying to discern if any of our issues were
trauma related, like, you know, a sexual trauma or a domestic.
And he basically said, I have an approach and it's super efficient and successful, but
it is outside of my scope to work with someone who has like certain types of trauma.
This approach will not be helpful if someone has this certain types of trauma.
And I so appreciate and respected that he understood his scope of practice.
He was proactively trying to make sure that he was going to be the best therapist for us.
And I think a good therapist will always be open to being pushed back on, to you asking
questions, they'll be asking their own questions.
I want to pause right here because I have another subject I want to get into after the
break.
Okay, we're back for the break.
And I have, well, it's really two questions.
Well, it's a question and a comment.
The first one is, this is like one of the number one questions that come up on my page
is how do you fire a therapist?
Oh, okay.
Let me give you all the details.
Okay.
First thing I want to say is, why do you want to fire your therapist?
I know that's not answering the question right away, but I really want people to reflect
on why you want to fire the therapist.
After you figure out why it is that you want to fire the therapist, asking yourself, is
this something that I can talk about with the therapist, why I want to let them go?
After you figured that out and you're like, okay, nope, I don't want to talk to my therapist
about it.
I don't want, I just want to fire them.
You can ghost them.
Thank you.
That's my answer.
I know that ghosting has a negative connotation to it and relationships, but those are different
than a therapist relationship.
I say that ghosting is okay because maybe something happened in the session that you
feel as a person cannot be repaired and that is absolutely okay.
I also want to say it is okay that if you ghost the therapist and later on, you're like,
ooh, I think I might want to go back.
Please do not feel any shame with reaching back out.
I have never had hard feelings about that.
Never.
I have never.
I'm like, oh my God, they're back.
I need to know what happened.
What's the team?
Where have you been?
Was it something I did?
So it's okay to do that.
I just want to normalize that that's okay.
The other way is to do it is if you feel like it's something you're like, I want to
let them know.
I kind of want to talk about it, but I don't really want to do it in the session.
You can email them.
I did that.
I tried to fire my therapist.
I emailed her and long story short, it had to do with her scheduling.
She wasn't the type of therapist that you get on the schedule and then it's sort of like
a rotating schedule.
You're always on the schedule every Tuesday at 2 p.m.
And when I had asked her in the session, I was like, yeah, I'll just take every Tuesday
at 2 p.m.
I saw her face change and she just had never been put in that position.
And so I was like, oh, what is it about me getting on your schedule that your face changed?
And so I sent her emails like, hey, I don't think we should work together.
And then my therapist, because this was like our second meeting, she then called me and
was like, hey, I'm going to give you a free session so we can talk about this because
I want to explain what happened and I'm sorry that you felt that way.
So knowing that email is acceptable and that's okay.
The other way that you can do it is if you want to call them or you can do it in the
session or texting.
I don't know if some therapists do texting, but that is an option as well.
And also knowing too, let's say if you feel like you're someone that needs emotional support,
it's okay to bring someone to the session with you for support to talk about that.
I just want to like, I don't think people think about that like, hey, I might be my
support person here.
You can do that.
I love that answer.
That is exactly the answer I give.
I say that like, if it's the difference between you like continuing to go to a therapy that's
not working for you and getting a therapist that does work for you, just ghost them.
And then I think just like what you said, recognize that if you are ready, if you're
in that place, being able to communicate to them can like that you want to sort of wrap
up the relationship.
It can be such an incredible opportunity to practice those skills in a safe space.
Right?
Like most of us need to practice those skills of sort of, you know, distressed tolerance
and being okay in conflict and standing up for ourselves and advocating and, you know,
we don't want to walk away and feel shame about it.
Like that is one of actually the perfect places to do that because it's relatively safe.
Even if your therapist has a reaction that you don't like, chances are it's not going
to be some sort of totally off the wall on safe reaction.
And it's just such an invaluable moment to practice those skills.
And so I encourage people to look at it that way and then say, but if you're not in that
place, if doing that is going to be what stands in the way of you going and getting therapy
that works for you, just ghost them.
I also say like, you can just go get your new therapist and then work with your new therapist
about how to talk to your old therapist.
Yeah, that's totally valid too.
I mean, there's so many different things that you can do when it comes to firing a therapist.
But one thing that I do want to say is that you might have unhealthy relationships with
people, but the relationship with your therapist, that is supposed to be healthy.
So if there is anything in that relationship that is unhealthy, figuring out what made
it unhealthy, and if it has to do with the therapist, then it's okay to ghost them.
But knowing that I want to say that the relationship with your therapist, it's supposed to be
healthy.
Yes.
And it's supposed to be explicit.
That's one of the like going back to like, we don't do a good enough job teaching clients
what therapy is supposed to look like.
Most relationships are not explicit.
Like if you and I were to become really good friends and we were to go to lunch sometime
and something were to happen where one of us felt some type of way, like we would probably
bring that up.
But like, I felt some type of way when you did this.
Can I check in?
I felt awkward about it or what were you thinking?
And like that would be really comfortable.
I mean, it's not a comfortable situation, but we could both really tolerate that.
I even did a recording with another therapist who we had like disagreed about something
online.
And we had this conversation about what did you feel when you saw my messages?
Well, I felt angry.
Well, I felt annoyed.
Well, what I felt was and we were able to talk about that sort of thing in the confines
of sort of still extending respect to each other.
So like that's totally normal for us.
And I don't think we do a good enough job of explaining to the clients.
Like that's how your relationship with your therapist should be.
Like that you shouldn't be having this like, I kind of thought she said this or I kind
of didn't like that.
Like she's the person that you go or she or he or they they're the person that you go
to.
I was talking to my mom and I kind of thought she said a certain way.
Like that's that person to make everything explicit to say, I'm so nervous to say this.
I'll never forget talking to a therapist.
I was made to go to therapy when I was in therapy school.
Did you all have to do that too?
You know, it's funny.
I did not have to do that, but we had a class.
So it was group therapy.
And I remember the way that the professor taught the class was like an interpersonal
relationship, it felt like therapy because I remember like I was like, oh, every time
I leave that class, I was like, oh, this so we had to do group therapy for the class
and the professor would call you out on your bullshit.
I love that.
You weren't being real within the group.
And she called me out a few times and I was just like, I remember I was like, I'm a failed
at class.
Well, they made us go to six sessions and I didn't really need therapy at the time and
I didn't want to pay for it.
But I just went for someone on my insurance, just someone off the list.
She was not very good, bless her heart.
But at one point in the session, I was talking about like a really important relationship
on my life.
I don't remember if it was like a best friend or something.
And they were like, sounds like, and then they made a comment about my friend.
And she was attempting to like validate me beyond my side, but I didn't like the words
that she used.
And I didn't say anything at the time, but when I came back and I remember having this
perspective of, this is not really a great therapist.
I'm not getting a lot out of it.
But you know what?
I'm going to take this opportunity to like do this slightly uncomfortable thing because
that'll be good for me.
And I remember saying, hey, I wanted to bring up that in the last session when I was talking
about my friend and I getting into an argument and you made that comment that my friend was,
you know, I don't remember what it was.
I said that really made me uncomfortable.
I felt in that moment defensive of my friend and she was totally receptive.
She was like, interesting.
She was like, well, I think sometimes.
And she gave what oddly was some pretty insightful feedback about some, I don't remember the
feedback now, but it was something helpful about, you know, we can be angry with someone
and sort of possessive of them at the same time.
And it can be really difficult to navigate relationships where you feel like you have
to protect everyone.
Yeah.
And I remember being like, dang.
I mean, it feels that way because if you think about it, it essentially like you're telling
the therapist what's happening.
It's like, but you know my friend, who are you to call my friend out?
It's kind of like, I feel like the protective relationship where it's like only I can make
fun of them.
You cannot.
So if I'm coming to you, you laugh.
That's all you do.
It can feel very like protective and defensive, but knowing to that the relationship with the
therapist, it is not quid pro cool.
They're not your friend.
It's one of the few relationships in your entire life where you get to take, take, take,
take, take, take, take, take, take, take as much as you need, take as much as you need
and not expect anything in return.
Not, oh, is it okay that I use that word?
Is there a different word that you would like me to use instead of expect?
No, you're fine.
I'm great with expecting this context.
Okay.
I just wanted to make sure that's the one relationship where take all you need.
Go ahead.
It's the therapist's job.
And I say this to my clients because I feel like sometimes clients are like, I don't want
to burden you with like my stuff.
And I'm like, it's my job to take care of me to take care of you.
That's why I take vacations.
So don't you worry about what you say and whether or not is burdening me.
Don't worry about that.
I got me and you.
That's why that emotional health piece comes in.
It's so important.
And you know, it made me think also of when we're talking about like, you know, she responded
that way about my friend, which didn't work for me, but might have worked for someone
else.
Maybe somebody else really needs to be validated because the whole life they've never been
validated.
And it makes me think about when I love talking about like, has a therapist ever done something
that made you uncomfortable?
I like to ask that question sometimes, which by the way, I think as a therapist, a great
first question to ask in a session is tell me about your past therapy experiences.
What did you like?
What didn't you like?
Yeah, let's talk about it.
So I can know off the bat what doesn't doesn't work for you.
What's so interesting to me is that I will always get this same comment and I get both
sides there for every person that says, I told my therapist about my trauma and they
cried and it made me so uncomfortable.
Like this is now I feel like I have to take care of your feelings.
And like it didn't work for them.
But what's interesting is for every comment like that, I also get a comment that says,
when I told my therapist about their trauma, my trauma and they cried, like they didn't
make some big blubbering mess, but they tears came to their eyes and they just asked for
a moment.
It was the first time I realized what happened to me wasn't normal.
Like I had never actually been in front of someone showing me human empathy and that human
empathy sort of rocked this normalization of the way I had been treated and was made
such an impact and was so helpful to me.
And that's like the perfect example of like both sides of the coin because some clients
need that and want that that someone cares for me.
Wait a second, especially if they're laughing about it and you just refuse to laugh with
them.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And you give them not refuse like I'm going to hold it out, but you just give them a moment
of what would it be like if I didn't laugh with you?
If I would like you're laughing, but gosh, that makes my heart hurt.
Like some people really need that humanness, but then other people probably as a result
of their trauma, like they don't need someone else's emotions in the room because they can't
have their own emotions in the face of somebody else's.
Like they need that blank slate therapist.
Yes.
Yeah.
It might take them out of their window of tolerance.
It might.
And I think that that's important to recognize.
So something that I like to do sometimes if I can see a client sort of cause I all of
my sessions are held through telehealth, is I might say, would you like me to turn off
my camera?
Because I feel like sometimes they want to not see me and that's one of the benefits
of telehealth for them to tell their story.
And I can say, Hey, I see you.
Do you want to turn off your camera?
Because sometimes, you know, like when you're looking, you're looking at yourself too.
And so that's helpful.
And the other thing too is that I don't think people understand or not under that's not
what I want to say.
I don't think people sometimes know that therapists can be uncomfortable and nervous too.
Like when I get the first time I have a first session with a client, I'm always very nervous.
And the reason why I'm very nervous is because I'm respectful that what did it take for this
client to get here and make this step to come to therapy and oh my God, I don't want to
fuck this up.
I don't want to screw this up.
I don't want to tank this.
And then I'm getting to know someone and that can be very sort of like, I'm respectful
to the vulnerability of someone coming to therapy.
But also in that too, sometimes for me as a therapist, I'm okay with being uncomfortable.
Like if we're in a session and I'm like, who I know what I need to say here, like there's
so much that's going on, I feel like in my brain where it's like, okay, I could take
it this way, but can they handle it this way?
Maybe I just need to stop, check in.
And sometimes I can feel uncomfortable too with just restating what they said like,
oh my gosh, I'm going to restate.
So you said that hurt your feelings.
Oh, but I already got to respond to that.
Like I mean, it's a very sort of like beautiful, messy, uncomfortable, unsure, uncertain, but
validating.
There's so many words that you can use to describe therapy and it's up to the two people, the
therapists and the client or family, everyone in the room to figure out what is going to
work for this relationship.
It's really a practice relationship.
Like at the end of the day, it's not a really that much about what you're talking about
or what issue you come in with or like advice that they get.
Like it's truly a practice relationship for most therapy modalities.
Like it's a person to practice on that is going to be safe, that is going to hold your
space that is not bringing their needs into the room so that you can figure your own
issue out.
And I will say like the pandemic added some things around tele therapy that I hope stay.
The first therapist I worked with in the pandemic was a postpartum specialist and she did hers
via phone call.
Oh, okay.
Not even like with a screen.
I've never even seen her.
And so I would literally be and my kids were so young, like so young.
They didn't understand what I was saying.
And so I'd be at the park pushing them in a double stroller with apple air pods on or
air buds or whatever they're called, right?
And I'd be moving.
I'd be walking.
I'd be keeping my kids comfortable and not screaming and we should be talking in my ears.
And there was something about that that was like, man, this is actually really nice.
Yeah.
And I think that that the accessibility, that's what it really gives people.
You know, not having to sort of like, okay, let me shift my schedule around because sometimes
some clients I see on their lunch breaks.
It just really allows it to be a part of your day and not having to be sort of at the beginning
or at the end, whatever works for you.
You can have, I don't even think that people know that you can actually, if you want, you
can have 30 minute sessions.
If some therapists offer them mostly self pay, I don't think insurance covers over 60 minutes.
So you can have like 90 minute sessions, you can have 45 minute sessions.
Yeah, it's sort of like, I want 30 minute sessions with this client or sorry, with this
therapist, maybe 45 minutes over here, maybe six, like you really get to curate what you
want therapy to look like.
And as often, like it doesn't have to be every week.
Some people go every two, some people go once a month to check in.
I feel like accessibility is something we don't talk enough about in counseling school, particularly
around like a lot of the way we talk about connecting to clients is really neuro typically
cold coated.
Like we should be offering to clients and they outset like, are you comfortable with eye
contact?
Would you be more comfortable without eye contact?
Would you rather sit next to each other?
Would you rather do telehealth?
Would you rather do phone call?
And there is something to be said about like, when I have a person in front of me, I can
observe their non verbals and sometimes that gives me a better picture of what's going
on.
That should never come before what that person needs to be actually vulnerable and do work.
And that's so important.
I mean, I'm hoping I've been out of my grad program for like, what is it?
12 years.
Oh, I'm hoping that it really has changed because I remember having that one multicultural class
and that was the thing that was like, yeah, it's not, you can work with everybody.
And it's like, no, not really.
That's not how this works and operates.
And that's been a part of like just my learning journey.
Like I remember in one of my jobs, I was one of the only black clinicians.
And I remember I ended up asking my supervisor one time.
I was like, are you only giving me black clients?
Because I feel like, yes, I get that, you know, you want to give them someone that looks
like them.
But what about my skills?
I really want to be noticed for my skills.
All the other therapists get clients based on their skills.
But then when you sort of present the client to me, the first thing you say is, yes, they're
a person of color.
I don't think that's fair to me as a person of color and as a clinician because just because
I'm a person of color doesn't mean that that's what's going to connect us.
And I get how important that is.
And so that honestly, if I'm being very truthful, that was very hard for me to speak up because
it almost felt like the one thing that I stand for is the BIPOC community, but also at the
same time, that's not what I want to be only noticed for.
I want to be noticed for my skills as a clinician.
That's how I grow.
And so I remember that experience and being like, that doesn't qualify me to work with
every person of color because I'm the only person of color on the team.
That's so great.
Yeah.
Turning like taking a client or not taking a client, like referring a client out from
bias is different than referring a client out from humility.
And the same thing, referring a client to someone because of your own stereotype is
different than referring someone to someone because you have intimate knowledge of their
skills where connecting from a marginalized community is just one spoke on the wheel.
Right?
You can't ignore all the other spokes and be like, yeah, they're a good fit.
Yes.
Yes.
And I think what you said is important.
So one of the things, and I talk about this in the book, is the difference between cultural
competency and cultural humility.
And cultural competency, that sort of shine, or I don't want to say shines, that sort of
pays attention to the differences.
Whereas cultural humility pays attention to not only the differences, but how to also
communicate with those differences.
And cultural humility is a lifelong process.
Whereas cultural competency often sort of is like, we taught you this class, we had this
diversity inclusion meeting.
Now you're culturally competent.
And it's like, no, let's talk about cultural humility.
And I feel like that's the term when I was in grad school, that term wasn't even used.
It was mainly cultural competency.
And I remember reading in a book, and there was a section on Asians, there was a section
on LGBTQ+, there was a section on black people.
And it was like, this is what you're giving people as they're training.
And then every other class is about how to therapist white people.
Yes, exactly.
And it's like, I remember being so just like anxious in my multicultural class, because
soon as a topic for, you know, a person of color came up, everyone's like, oh God.
And I'm just like, hi, oh my God, like I remember, so short story, I remember for one
of my papers, I wrote, I was like, it's great that we're talking about our experiences.
But this isn't enough.
We now have to figure out how to take action, and I'll never forget my professor wrote on
my paper, we're not ready for that in my multicultural class.
And I was like, oh, he said the quiet part out loud.
I was like, oh, so why am I, why are we taking this class?
Yeah, that's sad.
Oh my goodness.
Well, tell everybody where they can get your book.
Yes.
So you can get the book at Barnes and Noble, you can get it at Walmart.com.
And of course, if you would like to Amazon, it, that is where this is available.
Oh, Walmart.
I'm not even in Walmart.
Oh, yes, yes.
Walmart's a big get.
Yes.
I Google it.
That's how I find out.
Like I recently found it on Urban Outfitters.
I was like, oh, oh my God, how does this even like work?
That's amazing.
And where can people find you online if they want to follow you on your socials?
Yes.
If you want to follow me on my socials, everything is the Shawnee Project.
I would say if you want just sort of like the mental health videos, you can find me
on TikTok.
If you want to know me personally, you can find me on Instagram.
And if you want help throughout your mental health journey, you can join me on Patreon
where I actually give you printouts, homework, how to navigate there.
If you like actual talking videos, TikTok is more like, that's where I have fun dancing.
Awesome.
Well, thank you so much.
I thought this was a great conversation and you have written a great book.
So thank you again.
Thank you so much for having me.
Bye.
♪♪♪♪