63: Gratitude in the Hard Seasons, Part 1 with Christine Koh

Hello, you sentient ball of star dust. Welcome to Struggle Care. I'm your host, Kasey Davis, and today is an exciting part one of a two-part series. I'm going to be with Christine Coe who is a music and brain scientist turned multimedia creative. She spent a decade in academia during which time she was awarded a prestigious fellowship from the National Institute of Health to fund her PhD research at Queens University and joint appointment post-doctoral fellowship at Massachusetts General Hospital Harvard Medical School and Massachusetts Institute of Technology. Christine was about to become a professor when she decided to hang up her academic spurs in favor of more flexible and independent ventures. She's an award-winning author. She wrote minimalist parenting and she's a podcaster. She's the host of Edit Your Life. She's also a creative director and strategist. And we're going to be talking about gratitude, toxic positivity, and how we handle hard times. So the first part of this episode is going to be right here on Struggle Care. And what did I say that way? Right here on Struggle Care. And the second part of the episode is going to be over on Edit Your Life. So be sure and hop over there when you can and here part two. Okay, so Christine, thank you for being here. I'm so excited to talk to you. So I love your show and we're both part of Adelist and I just felt like it was time for us to come together on the mic. Absolutely. And I feel like this is like the perfect time to be talking about this because going into like you're in the US like Thanksgiving and then Christmas, like it's very much a season where people talk about gratitude. And there's this expectation that everyone is supposed to be excited and grateful about the holidays. And so I thought this was like a good, it's we're kind of like perfect timing. I think so and I think it's so important to offer a more nuanced perspective to gratitude. I think it sounds like a simple thing like, oh, just be grateful, articulate what you're grateful for. All will be well. And obviously it's so complicated. I mean, at the time that we're recording, we're a little ways out from the holidays. But I've been having some anxiety just even thinking forward about people's expectations and wanting to stay true to my values yet also not wanting to hurt people's feelings. I mean, there's so much wrapped up in this time of year. So I like to think of these two episodes. We're going to record together as a way to give people kind of a brave place to let their feelings be what they are. And dig in with us. And I'm super excited about the idea of having this nuanced conversation where we address the issues with like toxic positivity. And we don't like throw the baby out with the bath water when it comes to gratitude. Like, I feel like we sometimes it's like toxic positivity is such a problem that we kind of like swing to the whole other side and say like, okay, like we need to talk about real stuff and hard stuff and have those feelings. And I sometimes I think what's get what gets lost in that conversation is like, well, is there any benefit to gratitude? And if there is like, how do we practice that in a way that isn't toxic positivity, but does make our life better and doesn't invalidate what we're feeling, but does raise our quality of life? Like, I'm excited to get into this conversation. Absolutely. I think, I mean, we are complex mammals. That's something I often refer to. And I, it's a little puzzling to me why it's even an issue that people feel like we can't be multiple things. And, you know, I'm coming out of, thankfully, a very, very difficult season of a couple of year long season. And one of the things that I had to tap into often, mostly because I felt like I was kind of losing my mind, like, how can I be in the depths of despair or one moment? And then like, really joyful about something the next moment? And I kept thinking about, you know, we are as humans, we have a unique capacity to hold both difficult, painful things as well as tap into good positive things. And that's a good thing. We need to be full dimensional people. So really excited to talk about this. And I can't wait to hear your thoughts about toxic positivity. I know you have a lot of that. And I think that's just going to be a really good element to this conversation. Well, I thought we would start. I had like a thought out of nowhere. But like, I think it'd be helpful to talk about like a good definition for gratitude. Yeah. I think if I had to just do one off the top of my head, which is right now, I would say it is figuring out a practice that works for you, identifying that everybody's baseline is going to be a little different about simple ways that you can tap into appreciation for the moments that matter to you, light you up, give you a little energy. And then there's this whole side thing of while still acknowledging where you are in life. But I really feel like it's trying to find ways that work for you because there is no one size fits all solution. There can be a lot of suggestions about things that will help. And I know on the edit your life episode, we'll talk a bunch about tactics that we've found useful over the years. But I just want to emphasize that there is going to be a little trial and error, I think, for people. And that's a good and natural part of the process. Yeah. I've been thinking a lot about like a working definition. And I think for me, what I've come sort of rattling around this idea of like it's the amplification of authentic joy. Oh, I love that. That's better than let's use that. That was framed beautifully. Well, and I, because I was thinking about it this morning and I was like, you know, part of this, like we can't really talk about gratitude without talking about joy because you know, we have to talk about like, how do we begin to cultivate and recognize those like small moments of joy? And I feel like joy is the experience. And gratitude is the reflection, right? Like, think about something really small, right? Like I love when it rains. And I was sitting on my back porch this morning. And I like having a cup of coffee and looking at the rain. And like that brings me joy. But there's this like, extra layer, almost as like meta layer of taking that beat to like consciously recognize this is joyful. And then also have that reflection of, I'm really grateful. I read this really interesting article talking about trying to define gratitude. And they were specifically talking about gratitude and relationships like, oh, I'm grateful for you. But they had this really interesting definition where they talked about like gratitude is the ability to recognize when something beneficial is happening. And to acknowledge its external source. And I was like, oh, that is a big part of it, which is like, I didn't make it rain. I didn't even like, even if I'm sitting on my back porch, like, even the recognition of like having this beautiful back porch, like I didn't have to have this. This wasn't just because I deserve it. Like there was a whole lot of luck and good fortune involved in having a house that has a back porch and being able to have the time to sit out like all of this kind of recognition, which I think is interesting because so much of suffering is grappling with how sometimes things are just random. Mm hmm. Wow. So we're talking about kind of, if I'm trying to wrap my mind around this correctly, is sort of embracing the random both for, I mean, sometimes it'll just be confusing, perhaps in moments of suffering. And sometimes it will be a moment of serendipity. Like you're a moment with the rain and thinking about things that come to chance. I mean, just this past weekend, I was away with my family and all of a sudden, my 19-year-old, you know, who is by all technical measures, a grown adult starts freaking out outside and she's like, there's a rainbow. There's a rainbow and we all run towards it. You know, and it was that joyful, tiny little moment. And I don't think anyone said explicitly, I feel so grateful for nature, but I think that was definitely there, you know, similar to the rain that you experience. Like, wow, like I'm noticing this right now and this is pretty cool. And it's interesting that connection of like a lot of what makes like suffering extra hard is kind of like, I don't have a better term than meaninglessness, but like the randomness of it, right? Like bad things happen to good people. And we don't always have control and things don't just like go according to plan. And there's like an extra level of sort of reckoning with that suffering. And I'm wondering if maybe gratitude is like bringing that same like yin yang idea to the other side, which is like, oh, this is happy, this is joyful, but like sometimes joy is so random. And those are gifts. I think that's like it's such a, I think it's a wonderful framing. And I think actually, you know, because if you are living in a on the grid, very prescribed society, the way I know you and I are, I mean, we're used to control. And I think for some people, control is very scary. So I think that is another reason why, especially in times of suffering, that feeling that you're being done onto or that something's happening to you, it's difficult. It's very difficult. I wonder if that's one thing. And I want to get into toxic positivity quickly here, because I don't want to just talk about how great gratitude is, but I wonder if that's something, that recognition of sort of the randomness of joy. There's this like, so I went to seminary for my counseling degree. I don't know if you know that. I consider myself like a deconstructed seminary person, but there's always this like interesting like Bible quote where they talk about like God give like it rains on the chest and the unjust basically. And so there's kind of this randomness of like, no, it just like happens to you, like sometimes good things, joy things. And I wonder if like being able to embrace that on the joy side somehow helps with grappling with it on the suffering side. I think so. It's a little bit and my background is experimental psychology, but it is positive reinforcement, right? If you embrace the joy in random things that happen, and you know, that's possible, that good things can come from random, you know, that'll help you hopefully eventually, you know, mitigate or manage in those moments where the suffering feels random. I think you're on to something with this. It also reminds me of my favorite roomy poem where they talk about like feelings and emotions. It's basically like open the door to all of them and welcome them in. Even if they turn over the furniture and wreck the room, like welcome them like guests. And I think there's a little bit of that there too. Like this openness of like everything changes. And that can be hard because it means like good things can change, but it can also be really freeing because it means that even the difficult things change. I like that. So I think the issue with like a lot of that good stuff there is when we rush to it. Like I think we get so uncomfortable sitting with the difficult things in life that when somebody brings us something difficult, we want to like rush them all the way to the like, oh, but there's joy and there's pain and there's there. And I think that's kind of where the term toxic positivity comes from. And while we're on the subject of definitions, how would you define toxic positivity? I mean, I think it is a focus on the positive with complete disregard for lived experience, complexity of a situation, all of those things. And I think it invalidates experience. It's very, I like to think that because I do have an optimistic side to me. I like to think that perhaps the ideology was well intentioned and thinking, let's, you know, let's look on the bright side all as well. I mean, sure, okay, that's like a, that would be just dandy if we didn't have all these other things in life, but it is really, really problematic. And I'm curious about your definition as well, but I can later speak to some thoughts I have about how that ties to culture and kind of, I mean, I think it messed up my ability to emotionally process things a lot, really on. Over. Sure. Yeah, I think about, I think there's like kind of two, like I think definitely what you say, like on the benefit, like I think we are sometimes wanting to help. You're like, okay, if I can help you feel better by pointing out good things, or if I can help you feel better by making the thing you're worried about a smaller thing, so you don't have to feel so strongly about it. But that doesn't ever work, right? But I think there's also this other side where we as a society, like we're just not very good at sitting with difficult emotions and distress. And so when you come to me and you're in distress, I'm uncomfortable. Like I don't know what to do with it. It's almost this like psychological, like I don't know what to do with my hands, right? Like I don't know what to do with myself. And I don't know what to say. And I'm uncomfortable. And it's almost like, I don't know how to deal with the feelings of discomfort that I feel in the face of your pain. So I really want to like fix it. And I want to tie it up in a little bow so that I can not only stop your discomfort, but I can also stop the discomfort that I'm feeling at like not knowing how to walk you through this really difficult thing. Yeah, I mean, it's difficult. Just I love the way you articulate things. And I think that's one reason why I was so excited to talk to you. I mean, I think that you're really outlining how the reason it's so hard is because you or any of us as a human, not only has to try to, if you're in an empathic space, you want to try to hold space and listen to the other person and you're like, oh my gosh, I am really uncomfortable as all get out. So I need to also manage my feelings while I'm simultaneously dealing with these other person's feelings. And it can be a lot, you know, I understand the avoidance. I mean, listen, I grew up in the Korean patriarchy. So we were all about avoidance. So I get it. But I think it is really hard. And actually when I think about phrases like good vibes only, like I think about kids wearing that on shirts and like how that would seem like a cute shirt to pick up and how my 12 year old probably wouldn't think anything of a shirt and would think, oh, that's cheerful, good vibes only. But the fact that it really sets the stage for, yeah, you better only have your good feelings because I don't want to see your negative emotion, negatively valanced emotions, yikes, like that makes me, that makes me very uncomfortable. I want my kids to have all the feelings. So you and I are both mothers and you talk a lot about motherhood and I find that toxic positivity is like so prevalent in parenting world. I mean, I want to say parenting world, but if I'm being honest, it really is specific to motherhood. Like we are supposed to be happy and cheery and self-sacrificing with a smile on our face. And there are so many times I will see someone talking about motherhood being hard. And then you open up the comment section, right? Let's say we're on social media and it's like so much of that toxic positivity of, well, at least they're healthy and you'll miss this one day and just think, I mean, it's just so so much. I mean, what has been your experience with toxic positivity when it comes specifically to parenting? Yeah, I mean, I think, I mean, I'll just back up and very briefly say that my own history as a small person growing up was very chaotic. Many adverse childhood experiences or ACEs, if your community knows that acronym. And so I spent a lot of my early parenthood trying to unwind over compensation, being a perfect insert air quotes, parent, all of that, because it just, it wasn't realistic. It's not realistic. It will drive you to madness if you try for it or unhappiness and disappointment with yourself and lots of guilt. So I guess I would say there were some active unwinding I needed to do. And as somebody who's been writing on the internet in the parenting world since 2006, I mean, like you said, I see it in the comments, I see it all over the place. I see it in Mother's Day roundup memes. I mean, Mother's Day is complicated. Some people have terrible relationships with their mothers. I mean, there's so so many things that don't get addressed. And I will say I think one of the most important things that we can do as parents in community is have conversations like these where we air all the different sides and complexities of it because that is one thing. I'm kind of a no-holds-barred person on the internet. And I talk about the good bad and the ugly, very freely. And without fault, anytime I talk about the really difficult stuff, I get a million DMs from people saying, I feel like I exist. You know, thank you for letting me see that it's okay to feel this way. Like it's almost as as in the face of toxic positivity, people lose sight of the fact understandably so that they can still be really great parents and also be angry or frustrated or all these other things. And so I think sometimes people just need a reminder for that. It doesn't have to be for me, obviously, but I think the more we can talk about it and be honest and not try to gloss over the things, the better it will be for all of us. You mentioned how much your heritage sort of informs some of your view of toxic positivity. I wonder if you could talk about that some? Sure. I mean, I think my growing up, if I had to characterize it in broad strokes, I mean, classic immigrant, Korean family, you know, my parents moved, well, they were already in the United States, but they started racing their family, moved to one of the best, I'm using air quotes because I don't really believe in best suburbs around bought near Boston. Literally a bus ride away from Harvard, so they could send all seven other children to Harvard. I mean, this was, I mean, this is just you can't get more textbook. And there was also so much chaos behind the scenes, but we were always the party line was always to gloss it over. Pretend nothing's bad happening is happening. If something bad is happening, hide it. I mean, I think there's also a measure of Asian silence and compliance culture in general that probably feeds into that. Not to mention like achievement culture. Let's just focus on all the good metrics you might be achieving. Never mind that that was difficult for me to even do because I was so mired in chaos and problems. But I think that all of that fed together to a situation for me personally. I won't speak to my sick siblings where I really stuffed down my feelings. I was tremendously emotionally repressed. I was oriented towards only focusing on the things I could report out on that were good if I had anything good. And I mean, it's work that I have been actively unwinding for as an adult. I mean, I actually you'll appreciate this given your experience in the field, but I actually have a children's feelings chart in my office like a five by six grid of faces. Like that's how much I had to go back is like, okay, there's a feeling other than anger and it's cousin frustration. What is that? I'm such a fan. I think all feelings chart should have the faces because sometimes that's what it's like, I'm looking at the faces. Like which of these faces resonates with how I'm feeling? Yeah, I did. I was like, okay, who produce this is a total sidebar, but I think you'll appreciate it. But I was like, who produced this feelings chart because it's illustrated. It's not real faces. And all the like negative valence feelings, the kiss location. I got it. But anyway, it's been very helpful. It was given to me by my social worker mother and law. So, you know, I know there's a lot there. I mean, that's just the reality. There's a lot there. But I think, you know, I would say when we focus too much on the good stuff and we tamp down like all the other range of emotions, like it leads to problems. Okay, so I have a follow up question. Let's pause one second. 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So if you're ready to spark a new movement and generosity, find and download give as we grow for free in the app store for Android and iOS and for resources for the whole family visit give as we grow.org. So you mentioned that your family your parents immigrated. Is that correct? Is part of what happens because I feel like I've heard this before of first generation immigrant families where if your parents go through something really difficult and they have to work so incredibly hard through lots of hardship that your your problems in comparison seem like you're not really allowed to complain about them because in comparison they're nothing compared to the problems and the challenges that your parents face and so it creates this weird dynamic of maybe not feeling as though you're allowed to feel the full breadth of sadness or grief or pain or disappointment because there's almost this comparison this measuring oh absolutely I mean I actually am this week it's my birthday tomorrow actually and it's a milestone happy birthday thank you it's my 50th birthday so it's a big one and wow you're the first person who's gonna know that this is even happening case because I just haven't even I haven't even told my husband I'm doing this but I'm writing a letter to my mom and I'm gonna give it to her with a cash gift it's very Korean but that's like a gift to her as well on this milestone birthday but in it I do it occurs to me I start the letter by saying and in it I thank her for a whole bunch of specific eight ways she supported me in my life but I start the letter saying I something like I know I've said this many times but I truly have so many moments when I reflect on your life raising seven kids being an immigrant dealing with racial atrocities this this and this and I don't know how you did it and I think that golf is even bigger for us because you know seven kids versus two kids that alone is staggering but then you know it would in coming to America and learning in English was the third language my mom had learned I mean there was a lot going on so yes I think that yeah I don't complain a lot to my mom probably and I guess you're hitting on the reason for that well it's interesting because I feel like we talked up to this point about toxic positivity really kind of being something that we do to each other but you could see how in certain contexts like we would learn to do it to ourselves sure sure yeah I think that makes sense because even when I think about you know our lives and when things happen I'm using bad and air quotes when bad things happen I mean I definitely have moments where I'm like oh hold on maybe I shouldn't really be feeling this way because I have a lot I have a lot of gifts and I think and a lot of things are really good and while it's good to make note of those things and be aware of them you know per our earlier conversation about joy and unexpected things I mean all the experiences matter you know so when I think about you know my when I think about the most toxic positivity that I experienced in my life and certainly parenting is it's a big part of it but you know coming from a church background you know toxic positivity has this like religious cousin that I call spiritual bypassing yes talk more about that and I didn't come up with that phrase it's a phrase that I've heard before but spiritual bypassing is basically the idea that you know you come to me and say oh I'm really struggling I'm really you know this that the other and I kind of give this faith based answer that tries to do the same thing that toxic positivity does right like either says well just have faith just let go and like God just something to kind of button it up and put a nice little bow on it and just okay it's done don't you don't have to feel that way anymore because God is in control and it's almost like these like thoughts stopping clichés which I think are really common in toxic positivity and spiritual bypassing but I I've always appreciated that term bypassing because I feel like that's like at the heart of what toxic positivity is it's like I want to bypass the very real and valid things happening here I don't want to give you any room to process them or to feel them or to explore them it just assumes that what we want to do is move on as fast as possible because it feels bad it feels yucky let's move on as fast as possible to what will feel better and I mean it makes sense because nobody likes to feel distressed but you can rush off and rush from the distress in a way that doesn't resolve any of those feelings that represses those feelings that invalidates those feelings and actually makes the distress worse right and then you're lonely and then you feel isolated and then you you don't feel a listen to you don't feel like any of it has been resolved and you almost almost feel ashamed of it because there's this I mean in the US culture is so impacted by Puritanism and religion in that aspect that there really was this kind of dichotomy of if you are spiritually well if you have good faith you won't even have those distressing feelings right and so if you are struggling well there must be something wrong with your faith or that you must not be strong enough and so we have all this shame of even having this bad distressing experience to begin with because why can't we just be happy for what we have why can't we just have faith and make it go away so I've always appreciated that term spiritual bypass because I saw it so so many times when I was involved in church yeah that's really interesting I had not heard that term and I think it makes a lot of sense and actually it's interesting because as I think about the approaching holiday season I wonder if there is some amplification on that too because I mean we're coming up to times where typically people might only go to a church you know a couple times a year and one of those is the holidays so there is there are just so many potential factors where everything can come together and it can kind of be a little bit of a perfect storm this time of year and I'm so I'm curious if we can start sort of thinking out loud about how do we utilize sort of the power and the strength that can come from gratitude and and I think in some sort of related ways like optimism without bypassing without invalidating yeah I will say that one of my favorite tactics and you know I'm not the trained therapist here but I'm a big fan of cognitive reframing and I actually have a whole episode on edit your life called the power of cognitive reframing because and I think one of the reasons I like this exercise and for me what happened was a couple of years ago or a year ago when I was in this very deep dark season of my life I felt like a blood of bad things it's going to sound a little child like it wasn't that they were happening to me but I just felt like overrun with bad things in a particular vein of my life and it was very I just felt like powerless I felt offended I felt hurt I felt a lot of things and I realized I'm trying to think if I know I didn't even have my my current therapist at that time so I was really miring through this alone but I did think to myself wait a second I think what I need to do is a little exercise with myself literally in a google doc where I had in one column like the situation and what was bothering me and then in the next column like how I was going to what the actual reality for me was so sorry let me just give you a quick example because I think that's always helpful for listeners I can't remember all of them but just as a general one in this situation I felt offended because my value as a person was being questioned as you know a creative person whatever I was given being given direct signals that I was not value depreciated whatever so my reframe was I know my value I don't need these people to so that's actually a moment where I could be grateful for like wow I have evidence of a lot of skills and a lot of a lot of things that I've done like I'm clearly a competent person the reframe there was I know my value my value in the world I don't need first of all this interpretation and by these other people is just wrong and I don't need them to validate and tell me whether or not I'm a good person and it was shocking to me how the simple act it probably took me 10 minutes maybe to sit there and think about a reframe I think there was only one that I struggled to really flip the script on but all the other ones I was able to do pretty quickly and afterwards I was like wow you know so much of this game is in our heads and I mean it's also real it's in our feelings it's in our bodies it's everywhere but there is a lot we can do in thinking about the alternate reality to the situation and if you have pushed back there I'd love to hear it but for me it's been very very helpful I think it is really helpful and I want to harken back to something you said at the beginning of the episode where you talked about like this unique human ability to hold at the same time like the joy and the suffering and I think what makes a cognitive reframe really powerful and what keeps it from being the toxic positivity is that we get our we get the reframe and an understanding that the reframe of like I know my value doesn't fix the pain that someone else doesn't it's not supposed to trump it it's not supposed to make it go away it's not supposed to fix it it's just supposed to give you something else that they come together like we can go it is so painful so I did it's done something similar with like when I get hate comments online and people will say you know you're a bad mom or you're lazy or you're this or whatever and oh my gosh people it will really be hurtful and of course yeah sometimes people will respond to that and they'll be like but you know you're not a bad mom or you know you're not lazy and I'd be like you're right I do know those things but like so then why does it upset you and I was finally able to say like well like when there's this aspect of okay this hurts because I might be tempted to think those things are true and I can use those cognitive reframes to understand okay what's actually happening here is like this person doesn't like me they're thinking of the most painful thing they could say to me they don't know me this is not they're like accurate assessment of me this is just them trying to be hurtful here are the things I do know about myself and that I'm I am doing that as a a both and not an either or because then I can actually get honest about why it's so painful and what I finally realized was like you know I'm grateful that I I know my worth I'm grateful that there are people that do see my work I think what it is is that this it's still painful that someone wants to hurt me even if they're not true it's painful that there are people out there that want to bring you down a peg and there was something about like nailing down the accuracy of that pain that made it tolerable like I could let it be there I could feel it I could grieve over it and I didn't have to like swim away from it really fast because I was worried about my worthiness it's like no my worthiness is okay but gosh that was painful and it gets to be painful and I get to be sad about it and it's kind of this it also reminds me of I was waiting for my daughter to get off the bus the other day and I was so excited to see her she gets off and she's a little bitty and she's like totalling towards me I mean she's five but it was like a still a total because her backpacks really heavy mom I mean like the moment she gets off the bus she just screams mom like so excited and she's at that age where like she doesn't matter how many kids are around she's gonna yell for her mommy and I remember thinking like this is so precious I'm so grateful for this moment I am going to miss this and I know the there's a lot of toxic positivity around that like you'll miss this mama like you'll miss all of this and the truth is is like when you say that to me when I'm saying like I'm really overstimulated I can't get a moment up to myself it's really hard to do this like I'm not going to miss those things no I'm not am I going to miss her coming off the bus and and being at age where she doesn't care when anybody thinks and she's great yes and so the healing part wasn't oh don't be upset about feeling so overstimulated all the time it was oh they come together like it's a package deal like it's a package deal that what's really hard right now is how much my kids need me and I'm overstimulated and it's a package deal that that time frame comes with these gifts comes with these moments comes with these moments that I'll never you know get to have outside of the stuff that's really hard because it's a package deal it's this the suffering of it and the joy of it and being able to hold space for both of those things made it easier to be grateful for those moments and made it easier to honor how painful it is and so I think that's kind of my feedback about cognitive reframing is that when someone uses it to cancel out the pain it can be toxic but when we use it to give us the hold in tension it and all is not lost I think that's when it's so powerful yeah this is reminding me of a beautiful I love you I just love all your frameings on all the stuff and it reminds me of a conversation that is will be live by the time our episodes go up but it's an interview I had with Daniel Koch Balfour she is an incredible artist uh people know her is oh happy Danny on Instagram she's an author and activist and you know she does all this beautiful artwork but it's very justice oriented and we talked a lot about how you need to give voice to suffering and through hard times because and this relates to something you said earlier is in order to move through and then beyond the feelings to your next thing you have to process it you have to release the valve you need to do the things you need to go through the feelings and then you can move towards growth and she heard uh phrasing about it she was talking about we were talking about politics and she was talking about how hope and doubt are not enemies you know she sees a lot of people have one you know one thought or the other on that like how could I be hopeful when there's there's all this terrible stuff happening and her point was yes you could absolutely be hopeful while acknowledging that you have doubts about the world based on what you've seen and lived through an experience and that it's okay to do those things so i think um you know that that's a good episode for people to listen to because it it is a real caring reframe on and uh caring example related to this conversation about really living in both of those spaces and allowing yourself to feel and and just be in in all the dimensions i know when i was in rehab so i was like 16 when i went to rehab and they had us do so many things and i mean so many things so like i couldn't even really tell you what was and wasn't helpful because it was just like throwing spaghetti at the wall and seeing what sticks and so who knows i couldn't like parse that all out but one of the things that they had us do was we had to write down 10 things we were grateful for every day and at first it just felt like it was a very like hollow thing it felt very silly and i think if i asked you to sit down today and write down 10 things you were grateful for like you could do that and they would be like big things i'm grateful for my kids i'm grateful that i have a roof over my head i'm grateful for but i was in rehab for 18 and a half months so i realize that long okay yeah at some point you're like 10 things that's a lot of words again 10 new things wait do they have to be different things so they didn't have to be different but like they were kind of supposed to not just be the same list every day and it was so frustrating at the time but by the time i was like a couple of few months in i was like i felt like i was really scraped in the bottom of the barrel so i would i would have to like look back at my day and be like what's like one thing that gave me just a a ping of pleasure today and so it ended up being things like the clouds were really pretty today yeah my lunch was really good today and as much as the idea of like start a gratitude journal like makes me want to put my head through the drywall i have to say like i think there was something to that that it eventually drove me to the tiniest of observations about my day and also the kind of like take for granted of my day like um yeah i am like grateful that my like sometimes i remember sometimes i would have things like i'm grateful at how comfortable my bed was last night like i found the perfect sleeping position that's huge i mean i personally love sleep so that's a big one and you know that didn't erase all the really difficult things that was going through but i think that in it is true that gratitude as a as a skill you know it's an emotional muscle that we have to kind of learn to flex but just like any physical skill the form is important and so like i i think of like toxic positivity as like having kind of like bad form like if you you're not actually going to make that muscle stronger if the form is poor over and over and over like there has to be this like it's okay to feel all of those feelings sometimes gratitude isn't about finding the good in what that shitty situation is sometimes it's what if i just what brought me joy today and what were the little things today we know what was that rain what was that this what was that the other and so i think powerfully though it is like it has to be said that it is so much more it is so much easier to be grateful when i am adequately supported yes absolutely i mean oh hi you know i think about i have the privilege of so much support like when i think back to my mom and all the things that she was dealing with you know i have a very supportive partner in my life and so i think it makes a lot of difference but yeah i mean i think it's a whole other conversation to talk through the systemic issues that are in play when we talk about the ability to have things to be grateful for um but or to tap into gratitude and i think that is probably why i mean it's one of the many reasons why you know when you were talking about these tiny little things that you were looking for whether it was your lunch or the bed or whatever else i do think as a practice i've probably adhered to the power of that really strongly because it might also be because you know i was a former experimental psychologist and i really like you know that is all about tiny little tweaks and and dials and adjusting them and seeing what works and what doesn't and what is a result and what is not but i think that when we can look for those tiny little moments and this refers also relates to a mindfulness conversation you recently had on your show that i hope you link up in your notes because it's a great related episode to listen to but i think when we can tap into those things you know and really think about what our potential levers for gratitude and things that can help us tap into that the stakes are kind of lower right because if you're identifying really small things like it's accessible and i think that's what's been really powerful for me especially when i've been in my hard seasons when i think it's most especially for practitioner not practitioner but like professionals like those of us who will be in the place of recommending gratitude as a practice or as an exercise to understand the limits like it cannot band-aid over systemic issues it cannot fix like it is powerful and there is this aspect of i mean you hear stories of people going through the most horrific circumstances and talking about finding beauty that beauty still exists but i think what is so critically important is that that story has to be that person's story it cannot be prescribed right like it cannot be prescribed we'll just find the beauty just try to find the beauty christine and i know that your father was just murdered but find the beauty right like if you came on here and was like my father was murdered and let me tell you the story of how i navigated how horrific this situation was and yet something in that i learned that life is still beautiful that life is worth living like that would be such a powerful story but it would be so inappropriate and harmful for you to come to me in that moment of look what has happened to me and be like well you know life is still beautiful christine like totally and so i think that there's like an interesting dynamic there of empowering yourself to kind of sort of find this muscle flex this muscle is very different and it's outcome and impact on you then prescribing that to someone oh yeah it's such a personal process and like anything you know some things are are gonna work for others i mean and it depends on where your capacity to see and perceive is there there is a lot going on but i do like the way you phrased it as an emotional muscle deflects because i think it's true it requires practice and intention and you know probably a few tears but i think i think we can all get there together in our own like slow and incremental ways yeah but i want to pause for one more word from our sponsor and they come back and i want to ask you a parenting question as it relates to this okay if you need a little more hands on help with managing your money but you don't want to go to one of those big wig financial planners they're going to take a cut of everything that you have i want to tell you about fearless finance fearless finance is a fee only financial planning firm which means that they don't sell anything they're not going to take a percentage of your investments they provide on-demand comprehensive financial planning by the hour and i can't tell you how hard that is to find y'all it's a new way to get financial advice with all the headaches high fees and commitments that come with traditional financial advisors their planners will meet you where you are on your financial journey 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our kids while wanting to teach them the importance of gratitude and optimism and all these things because you know it's so difficult when your kid comes home and goes hey Johnny didn't want to play with me on the playground i don't have any friends nobody likes me we want to jump right to like yes everybody likes you you're so beautiful you're so wonderful you're so and you know that we're doing the thing that we dislike the would people do to us which is sort of bypassing all that pain and just trying to fix it and i get in this place sometimes where i don't i want to validate those feelings and i want to teacher what to do next though like i don't want to just like wallow i don't want to just go yeah i guess you're you're right you're right honey no one's ever going to want to play with you again but i find myself being you know how do i do that i don't want to just correct the cognitive you know things there but i want to teach both i want you to be feel valid in your feelings and i want to teach you how to move through to something that's a little more positive yeah i mean i think there are a couple things that and it's sort of they're sort of dependent on sort of where where the emotional volume is the with the kid in the moment and like perhaps your own i mean it's always best to be in a calmer place and you know when you have these conversations and certainly certainly for with my kids and as a parent there are certain situations they might have that are definitely a trigger for me so i have to watch myself in those situations that i'm not spilling my issues on them i do think there are a couple things i mean one is we as parents i think as a generation seem to really want to fill that space with our thoughts and so i really encourage people to listen first really let you know let there be a little awkward silence let your kid talk through let them be upset it's okay for that stuff to be happening and i also think before you offer whatever you think the solution is i find it very effective to ask my kids what they think because kids have a creative and different lens on things than we do as adults they by virtue of just years and being younger they have presumably a little less baggage in general so i found that sometimes their thoughts about how to handle something are totally different and sometimes totally better than what i would suggest and also one thing i have actually been doing with my oldest who is 19 19 now and as i said you know by all counts and measures at a grown adult but when she asks me for advice i'm really working on trying to help her remember that she's in charge so i usually start by saying well you know ultimately i know you're gonna do what you're gonna do and since you asked you know here are my thoughts but i really want her to know that these are just thoughts and recommendations and possible options but that she needs to try to tune into her gut and think about what would be good in that situation and the last thing i'll say is that i think it's so important for us as parents to i know people i probably roll their eyes when they hear the word modeling but what i'm talking about is modeling the full range of emotions like i used to not want to be upset in front of my kids because for me you know emotional repression was a source of safety for me you know if i was not noisy and didn't cause a big stink then i would be safe right so now i'm working on being okay i actually just like had a huge meltdown last week about something and it was really quite funny i was sitting on the front steps crying and my 12 year old was like had an arm around me and she's like it's okay mom just let it out like all the feelings are good i'm like okay okay i can hear her reflecting back that's good but um letting them see that that's okay because kids need to know that tough stuff's gonna happen it's gonna feel terrible and then they will get back up in some way shape or form it may not be perfect whatever perfect means but i think being able to see that in the people that they trust most you know for men in many formation family formations like that matters a lot and i think that's helped my kids a lot to see you know because i'm a pretty high octane high functioning person so to see me be a total wreck i think is actually helpful that's what i'm telling myself anyway yeah no i think that's totally true and you know you mentioned that that is sometimes hard for you because of growing up with sort of a familial history of repression and i'm thinking to myself it's probably also difficult if you are someone who grew up in the opposite environment like if you grew up around adults that were unstable and were always sort of emotionally what's that word like label libel i understand you know yeah like they were all over the place in a way that wasn't safe or in a way that made you feel not safe or in a way that signal to you as a little kid like oh they're not in control i'm not okay i could imagine that that would also make it difficult to show your emotions in front of your kids because you're thinking i don't ever want them to feel this way and i think it's important to always remember that you know our kids have a different emotional context for understanding things than we did you know if you are stable if you are there for your children if you do make your children feel safe they're not going to then decide oh my god life is so scary and i'm never safe because they had an experience with their you know parent having emotions and that can be really hard you know i always say that i'm not called to be the parent that i needed as a child i'm called to be the parent that my kids need and and it can be hard but i think that that's i always feel like i'm simultaneously parenting myself and my children at the same time and that nobody really teaches you how to do that no no but thank you so much i'm really excited about getting into part two and starting to talk about maybe some more tactics that we can use to flex that muscle and and how we can find support and get more practical coping skills and um i think that's going to be a great episode and i appreciate our conversation yes thank you for having me i feel like i've learned so much from you just in our you know short time on the mic and i'm really grateful for the perspective that you bring to the world through your show you're you're just wonderful and i'm delighted that we're connected now my guise i'm margarit and i'm amie and together we host the podcast what fresh hell laughing in the face of motherhood margarita i would say you're sort of a where are my keys kind of mom correct sometimes so where are my kids kind of mom well you're amie more of a we were supposed to leave 35 seconds ago mom i mean to say in each episode of what fresh hell we come at a topic from our usually completely opposite perspectives i bring the research and i bring kind of the gimlet i like is that research really gonna work people and almost 10 million downloads later we're still laughing we also talk to experts in the parenting field plus parents with stories we can all learn from we make each other laugh we challenge each other's assumptions and we have what we think is the best parenting community on the internet check out what fresh hell laughing in the face of motherhood wherever you listen to podcasts